Got to say I love the video. Actually gets me excited at the idea of finally implementing a PV system for my home. In addition it makes me want to research the possibility of finding smaller use versions for every day household electronics
Hi rhandsom. Informative video, thank you. There are some guys in the USA that are successfully using the original Ni-fe batteries from WW 2 submarines , so I guess those batteries are at least 70 years old. The problem they had was keeping up the water levels as you yourself have said. I hope your automatic watering system works well. I look forward to seeing the updated video when you have it installed. Cheers.
rhandsom, this isn't just a great video. Instead, you are showcasing the life work of countless prominent & obscure passionate contributors to battery technology. Through the investment & experimentation by you & the community you represent here, the body of knowledge you implement is critical to advancing human freedom. Those who are Preppers, Expats, & simply concerned for our future have many more choices because of you & people like you. Please accept our gratitude.
+christothegreat1 I suppose it should, I set it 18v because when it cuts off due to surge from the fridge, the voltage goes up back up to around 21v to 22v. I'm trying to ensure that I get as close to a total 1.0v discharge as possible.
I have seen some that where in a sub that where 40+ years old at the time and that was 18 years ago.. Tho's where used 24/7 for all that time and they still had 100 % of there life.. Like you say the key is DO NOT LET THEM RUN LOW ON WATER!!! The plates will fry in no time flat.. One small things I see. I would look into uping the low volt cut off to 18.4...Yes caps would be a big big help.. Just do not buy cheap caps.. God Bless Brother..
+yankey4 Thanks for comments, I've adjusted the voltage. When the inverter shuts off from the fridge surge, the battery voltage jumps to 21v to 22v. I'm hoping that I can get as close to 1v per cell as I can. Also, thanks for the advice on the caps. God Bless you and yours as well.
Nice set up great video how much they cost where did you get them?I'm looking to invest and get some for my off grid I'm just starting out and seen your video thank you for your time .
I use a Mallory 18,000 MFD 25 VDC and a Max 30 VDC capacitor on my my indoor yellow top optama solar system and I run a freezer full time and it seems to have helped a lot also I run my computer all day and most the night seemed like the capacitor helped a lot . I bought it off of ebay.
they want too much money for that. My DC capacitor only cost me about 20 bucks that AC one is waay to costly. Its about hundred dollars. Its only a capacitor like on a air conditioner. My DC one wont kill you either like that AC one can.
Can we get a link in the description for the model of the components you are using? Sounds stupid but I could only find cheap car audio circuit breakers and yours seems higher quality. What brand are they?
Here is the circuit breakers I'm using ("Blue Sea Systems 187-Series Circuit Breakers"), found on Amazon. (Blue Sea Systems Class T 225 to 400A Fuse Block with Insulating Cover), (Blue Sea Systems Class T Fuses),( 4/0 battery cable),. For termination lugs, I use "(Panduit LCA4/0-38-X Code Conductor Lug, One Hole, Standard Barrel With Window, 4/0 AWG Copper Conductor Size, 3/8" Stud Hole Size, Purple Color Code, 0.14" Tongue Thickness, 1.06" Tongue Width, 1.19" Neck Length, 2.45" Overall Length") , ( "Cole Hersee M750 Battery Selector Switch"). ( "JEGS Performance Products 10522 Four Post Terminal Bus Bar"), All components can be found on Amazon. Google search the items names in this list and it should take you right to them on Amazon. Hope this helps.
A possible alternative to super caps is the Aquion sodium ion battety 48v 2.6kWh non toxic salt water solar storage battery, made in Pennsylvania right in the good ole USA, very famous new company about 5 years old, most tech companies such as google and eBay and walmart and many office buildings have bought these battery banks and strung dozens together inside containers outside their offices to store power for standby and night time purchase and storage of power for day time use when rates are much higher. Not expensive for what you get and warranty for 8 years. High tolerance to abuse. It's just a salt water battery. Sodium . They claim better lifetime value durability compared to nickel iron, lead acid, and lithium ion. S10 battery stack on eBay only 1385 pick up at their factory in gordonville! Many tv shows have profiled this company they're hot...
+christothegreat1 Thanks, but at this point I'll stick to NiFe, the Aquion battery is pretty cool technology, but like new technology, it's longevity and reliability is still unknown outside of a lab.
how much does 19 of those weigh compared to equivalent power in an 18650 li-ion system? I imagine this fits somewhere inbetween deep cycle AGM batteries and li-ion...
"Some" lead acid batteries can be rejuvenated buy replacing the acid and using a device to rejuvenate and de-sulfate the plates. However, at some point they will be too far gone and will need to be replaced due the fact that their active material that makes up the plates will slowly degenerate over time. As for panels, I would 1st recommend Solar World panels from the AltE store, next I would recommend Renogy 250w panels. These are a good buy, watt vs price.
I am just curious how your Chinese Nickel Iron batteries are working out? Are you still using them? Are they performing as designed? Would you recommend them? Appreciate you taking the time to respond. Thank you!
The cells appear to be working as designed. I ran into 1 bad cell out of the 20 I received in my shipment, the cell was shorted. I took it apart and discovered that the quality of these cells is not that good. However, they appear to be working like they should. It's only been just over a year, so the jury is still out. As for recommending them, minus the quality issues and finding a reputable manufacturer\distributor, I would still recommend them at this point.
did you say it was 5 kwh and you charged it up in 1 hour? i thought you only had 3 kw on the roof? you should measure how much you can drain from the battery's when the sun goes down. that would be interesting.. do you still use the main power coming in from the street? And you should up the cut off to 19v if 1v per cell is the lowest you want to go.
+sven Actually I'm still breaking the batteries in. These batteries have to go through a series of cycles to bring them up to their rated capacity. For this purpose I use grid power to charge them up, due to the constant voltage of 31.3v and around 50 amps. Unfortunately, I've found out that I can't rely on traditional meter settings to tell me the SOC. Also, I'm playing with the low voltage cutoff settings to get as close to 1.0v per cell as possible. When the fridge kicks in and the inverter shuts off, the voltage immediate jumps to 21v to 22v, so that leads me to believe that the 18v is under load a that specific moment in time so the overall voltage is higher than 1.0.
Flooded lead acid batteries vent hydrogen, not sulfuric acid... the sulfur oxide ions never leave the solution, which is why you just have to keep adding distilled water to keep them topped off. Lead acid batteries also can handle a lot more than C/20 with C/5 not being uncommon. That is just the discharge rate that you can get the full rated AH capacity out of them. Faster discharge gets you fewer AH. Peak amperage is lower for NiFe according to wikipedia. Your typical home PC UPS uses sealed lead acid batteries with a discharge rate of C/0.2 or so, which is usually why you don't get near the rated capacity when fully loaded.
+Brad Call The batteries came from the factory direct from China through a US distributor www.beutilityfree.com. Don't know the exact manufacturer name.
hello rhandsom great video. have been running my home for years on a120v battery bank lead acid for many years they are old telephone batteries that got thrtyyears ago.and a home brew 5kw i nverter.and a 4kw solar aray. Look in home power magazne 73, a solar and wind system 10 years later.. I had an origional 6v edison battery i pcked out of a junk yard. i REPLACED THE ELECTROLITE AND AAND THAT BATTERY WAS LIKE NEW UNDER LOAD TEST 70 AH.. kEEP THE fAITH jOHN MILLARD
I've added and additional Nickel Cadmium bank to my Ni-Fe bank and I've incorporated the spare cell into it. This is my latest update video with a little commentary on the longevity of Nickel based cells. ruclips.net/video/IspB4Bg8XHA/видео.html
+TUNADOG2GO Thanks for the comments. Yes, it's not in the same league as a professional who does this for a living, but it's functional and most importantly, safe.
The nickel iron battery was invented by Waldemar Jungner in 1897. In 1898 he invented the nickel cadmium battery which he found to be far superior. He sold the nickel iron design to Edison in 1899. Edison believed that he could solve the issues with iron poisoning and electrolyte contamination. He mass produced the battery until 1905. Many customers reported short cycle life. He stopped production. By 1908, industrial companies were pressuring him to resume production because it was a great standby battery. He continued to write about his frustration about being unable to overcome the problems with the battery and eventually in 1970 exide bought what remained of his battery company. They thought they could fix it, but ceased production after only 3 years. Nickel cadmiums superior design is why it was chosen for jelly roll style portable cells, and nickel iron faded into obsolescence
Thanks again for your comments. Yes, Dendrite growth causes the cell to internally short and the 20% to 30% self discharge has been verified by some. Again, thanks for your comments and your references.
That battery bank is only 200ah. When you hook up in series, the voltage increases but the capacity remains the same. When you hook up in parallel, the voltage remains the same but the capacity increases. Example: 19 cells at 1.2 vdc 200ah connected in series would be a 22.8 vdc 200ah battery, whereas 19 cells at 1.2 vdc 200ah connected in parallel would be a 1.2 vdc 3,800ah battery. Great video nonetheless!
Ever thought of joining the two battery banks to make one 48 volt system? Less power loss due to less amperage list via cable resistance, which adds up to a significant suk of power lost over time...
+christothegreat1 My inverter is 24v based so I can't go with a 48v bank. I would have to buy another inverter. Also, with the thicker 4/0 wiring I would assume the voltage loss should be negligible.
When you ordered your NiFe cells did you order directly from China or through a local retailer? If you ordered directly from China how much import Tariff did you end up paying for your 200Ah bank> Trying to decide if I want to order directly from China or not. I obtained pricing for a 1.2V 500Ah cell from HengMing for around $200 a piece. So a set of 20 pieces will cost ~ $4,000 plus $95 shipping. They will ship dry, so no concerns about Hazmat. I am just not sure how much the US import duty/tariff will be. Thanks again for your videos. They have been very informational and an inspiration. If you feel more comfortable we can take this conversation to an email thread. Thanks Jim
Thanks for the comment and your question, I actually ordered my cells from a US distributor named BeUtilityFree. And $4K for 20 500Ah cells is not a bad price, considering I paid the same amount for 20 200Ah cells, You'll be getting double the capacity for what I paid. Shipping dry will definitely help, mine shipped full. The shipping for me was around 5 or 6 hundred dollars freight charges, which makes sense when they come from California with the electrolyte in them. Going the distributor route means someone else deals with the headache of tariffs, customs, shipping etc, going the direct route means you incur more of the risk, but the cost of of the goods is a lot less. I would guess that all in all you should be prepared to spend around 5K to get the cells from China to your door.
Hey how you doing man and I'm just looking at your video and I like what I see repairing to do my own solar wind turbine system but I need a good battery Bank and I see nickel-iron batteries they do really good all they do awesome for Off the Grid and I have a question for you and what website did you buy the system all heard that you said you bought it from China but do you have a website do you order form or how that works
Really nice setup there! These batteries are something that I'm interested in getting for myself someday. They are a big investment, knowing you will get quality delivered without running into problems from the manufacturer. There are many advantages to this power storage device. Looking forward to future postings. I'd get rid of the steel bus and use copper though. Nickel will only go up in price now, you bought at the right time. I see antique edison oil bottles, is oil added to electrolite to prevent evaporation? Thanks for sharing!!!
Thanks for the comments. So far they have proven that they are worth the investment. I use the steel bars because the battery interconnection bars that come shipped with the batteries are also flat plate steel. I don't have the oil, but I have a auto watering system on order that will deal with water evaporation. In my current videos, I show the performance of these batteries under load. I've drained them down to 11% and 13% State Of Charge multiple times. So far they have performed as advertised. They are expensive, $3499 with shipping, but considering they should last a long time, 30 or 40 plus years, I think it was worth it.
Both battery banks are fused in the center of the banks to prevent this occurrence. See this video for a better look. ruclips.net/video/WHxkvf0FZJA/видео.html&lc=z13xuhq4rmubgpu5304cc32y4mvsy5agxak
why wouldn't you just put the 20th battery in parallel with one of the other 19 batteries? Your voltage would still remain the same but it would increase amp hours.
i got a 10 cell set up which wont work with a normal solar charger because of the float is around 13v (it's too low a charge voltage)... so I'm using a dc to dc converter changing the output to 14.5v... its a temporary fix till i buy an outback solar charger and outback inverter... maybe i should share my setup...
Thanks for the comments. Please share your setup with us. Shoot a video and give a run down of what you have. I and many of us would be glad to see it. Also, a charge controller with the appropriate charging voltage range is definitely the way to go.
Update: I found a cheap charge controller for £160 which charges at a higher voltage of 12v to 17v, by Tracer... just need to program your maximum voltages and your float values... its now charging a 200w thought this might be a better charging solution for you...www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EPsolar-Tracer-BN-10A-20A-30A-40A-MPPT-Solar-Charger-Controller-Regulator-MT-50-/251987633102?roken=cUgayN
I heard about a man that had an electrical background that had a camp out in the country where there were high voltage transmission wires that ran overhead close to his camp . He made an antenna, and was able to capture free voltage through the air ,enough to run his camp. He did so for several years but power company eventually caught him, and sued him. what a bummer.
I've heard of this approach to receiving power through "induction", however I believe Myth Busters proved that you couldn't do it in this video ruclips.net/video/_WDoxzoOePA/видео.html
Hi there hope y'all been doing okay ive been dealing with bad health problems i have Edison batteries i cant take care of anymore do you know of anyone who could use them i need to get rid of them as soon as possible if you can spread the word thank you
You can get them from Iron Edison, BEUTILITYFREE, Hengming Battery, Bimble Solar, etc. They are widely available from various sources from China direct.
I just did this math, the capacity of your nickel iron bank is 19 cells times 200 amp hours per cell times 0.2 volts of useable voltage drop (1.2 is full charge and 1.0 is lower voltage limit per cell) equals 760 watt hours. That's 760 watts continuous power output for one hour, or 380 watts for 2 hours. Or 76 watts continuous for 10 hours. That's not a heck of a lot of capacity. Love how they'll last for 100 years though. They should be enough capacity to run your fridge for 10 hours all night long from say 10pm til 8am at the 78 watts continuous.
+christothegreat1 See I was also confused at his capacity level. All cells in series doesn't raise amp hours. So all equal 200 amp hours and that's what you end up with 200 amp hours.
+Jerry Densmore yes 200 Amp hours but we want to know Watt hours. Watt hours equals Amps hours times Voltage drop. For nickel iron cells, voltage start is 1.2V minus voltage end which is 1.0 Volts, so Voltage drop is 0.2 Volts. So, Watt hours = 200 times 0.2 = 40 watt hours PER CELL. Times 19 cells, equals 760 Watt hours, for the entire battery of 19 nickel iron cells. This rather small capacity is because nickel iron cells only let you drain them down by 17% of their full capacity, from 1.2 volts down to 1.0 volts, in order to last 100 years...
+christothegreat1 i was a bit confused about your math, but I see what you were trying to say. However, at full charge the battery voltage is 1.45v per cell. 1.2 is just nominal voltage. These batteries are rated at C/5, which is 200/5 = 40A, So in Theory, I should be able to run these batteries for 4 to 5 hours at a drain of 40Amps. Unfortunately, the batteries have to be initially cycled repeatedly to break them in so that they can run at their full capacity, so it's too early to tell right now. It's still a learning process at this point.
+christothegreat1 Your math is still confusing me. I'm not familiar with Watts = Amps x Voltage Drop. Multiplying the average or nominal battery voltage times the battery capacity in amp-hours gives you an estimate of how many watt-hours the battery contains. Please see this website for reference www.powerstream.com/battery-capacity-calculations.htm
rhandsom You are confusing charge/discharge rates with capacity. C5 and C10 refer to max current draw and charge RATES, While capacity of the bank is voltage x current x time = ENERGY. To compute energy, you will need to account for the cutout voltage of the battery, because at the point ea cell is at 1 Volt, you should not draw any more power. Makes sense?
your Voltage swing when the motors come on is because your cells are not cycled or run in yet. I have been living on nife cells for 3 years and they only get better. If you want any tips or long term info contact us at 24hoursolarpower.com
just something to help with yr life of yr batterys do not have niclkle iron batterys with lead battery in the same room the acid in the lead will go in your nickle iron not good hope this help from a nickel iron battery owner
Thanks for the comments and your concern. I double checked with the distributor of the batteries, since they are responsible for the warranty, I explained the situation and he also saw the video showing the setup. He is confident that using sealed AGMs shouldn't pose a problem like flooded lead acid batteries would. Not saying that there isn't any risk, but with sealed AGMs the risk is minimal.
don't count on it ion migration is permeating the room already...........get those lead acid batteries out of there, never underestimate the power of the sulfate ion to migrate, its got a very strong charge and will be electrostatically attracted to the OH electrolyte........... might take years but the oh electrolyte will act as a scavenger for all the sulfate ions in the room
BE CAREFUL a float charge can keep the water liquid (flooded acid ) type batteries warm enough that all the water evaporates and you lose the whole pack at one time; it seems unlikely but is very likely in fact unless current is completely disconnected to zero (a flloat charge is too much for extended periods of time).
heavy gauge wire with many many strands conduct best because in DC modes, the electrons travel mostly near or on the surface of the wire, hence for DC, more surface is more conductive; Yeah theory says at the center of a wire the DC current is near zero . Thats why DC higher amp systems use the many many strands in one thick bundle to decrease losses and over heating problem.
With DC current electrons flow through the entire area of the conductor. The only reason to use fine strands is for ease of bending and handling for DC current. Electrons will flow better on the surface of conductors used in high-frequency AC due to skin effect.
kuhrd Wrong, u got it backwards, think why do DC battery cables use so many strands, vs AC which use solid thinner cables. The DC likes more Surface area for increased conductivity, hence more strands make more sirface area.
Most heavy duty DC cables are traditionally used in areas where flexibility is desired or required like welding cable. Since welding cable is common and easy to work with it makes sense that it is also used for battery banks. You could substitute the cable with solid busbar of the same cross sectional area and it would be capable of carrying the same amount of current. Here is a Wikipedia section on skin effect en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect Notice that it only affects ac current.
I have a set............in 6 months their capacity to deliver charge had dropped 50% and the electrolyte was black with sludge in the bottom, used 30 litres of distilled water. Terrible. Hopefully not all brands are as bad as mine. After replacing the electrolyte, I did get capacity right back up to 5.3 kw/hr which is actually above spec. The problem was the idiots that sold them in the first place, they gave the wrong charging specs and didnt know that using these hard reduces the life of the electrolyte. They might have even mixed up the electrolyte solution using poor quality chemicals and ordinary tap water which contaminates it, and reduces performance.
If I had the funds I would have the same setup you are running. Buy one time cry one time lol.. Brother I was going to ask. Would you mind doing kind of a small over all of your TED... I would like to know what my house is using.. Would be nice for the solar as well but I can look at that on my Grid tie info.. I just have no clue what all I will need to get the read out of what my house is using.. There webpag sucks for help..
i use agm batteries on my smaller system. i am experimiting with capacitors for additional storage & starting boost , these were salvaged from a 25 hp frequincy drive. the system construct is based on back up power for lighting , running a freezer and or power tools to be used in case of mains power loss. plug and play design for differing power needs. differing inverters for higher or lower power needs. the plug and play scheme is also geared to part replacement of the system components , more likely available in times of need. please check out my vid keep it simple solar click on my icon i like to keep it simple and cheaper.
Got to say I love the video. Actually gets me excited at the idea of finally implementing a PV system for my home. In addition it makes me want to research the possibility of finding smaller use versions for every day household electronics
Thanks for the comments and the view. Solar has been an exciting as well as rewarding experience for me and I'm sure you'll enjoy it equally as well.
@@rhandsom what about the solar paint -
1900's
future is the past
Very informative! excellent overview of your system & a great history lesson I watched & listened to every word be proud of this video, well done.
+TheKilog69 Thanks, I appreciate the comments.
I wonder,is your system still up?
Hi rhandsom. Informative video, thank you. There are some guys in the USA that are successfully using the original Ni-fe batteries from WW 2 submarines , so I guess those batteries are at least 70 years old. The problem they had was keeping up the water levels as you yourself have said. I hope your automatic watering system works well. I look forward to seeing the updated video when you have it installed. Cheers.
Thanks, I hope to have a video when my shipment arrives.
rhandsom, this isn't just a great video. Instead, you are showcasing the life work of countless prominent & obscure passionate contributors to battery technology. Through the investment & experimentation by you & the community you represent here, the body of knowledge you implement is critical to advancing human freedom. Those who are Preppers, Expats, & simply concerned for our future have many more choices because of you & people like you. Please accept our gratitude.
Thank you for the compliment and the kind words. They are very encouraging and much appreciated.
Good video,at what voltage are you charging yours
great job! Can you comment on the self discharge rate? Would it be practical to float charge this system from the grid? Thanks
who is your suppler/who to order from your Nickle Iron Edison batteries
Should the cutoff voltage be 19 volts? Since 19 cells in series at one volt minimum each?
+christothegreat1 I suppose it should, I set it 18v because when it cuts off due to surge from the fridge, the voltage goes up back up to around 21v to 22v. I'm trying to ensure that I get as close to a total 1.0v discharge as possible.
I have seen some that where in a sub that where 40+ years old at the time and that was 18 years ago.. Tho's where used 24/7 for all that time and they still had 100 % of there life.. Like you say the key is DO NOT LET THEM RUN LOW ON WATER!!! The plates will fry in no time flat.. One small things I see. I would look into uping the low volt cut off to 18.4...Yes caps would be a big big help.. Just do not buy cheap caps.. God Bless Brother..
+yankey4 Thanks for comments, I've adjusted the voltage. When the inverter shuts off from the fridge surge, the battery voltage jumps to 21v to 22v. I'm hoping that I can get as close to 1v per cell as I can. Also, thanks for the advice on the caps. God Bless you and yours as well.
Nice set up great video how much they cost where did you get them?I'm looking to invest and get some for my off grid I'm just starting out and seen your video thank you for your time .
I use a Mallory 18,000 MFD 25 VDC and a Max 30 VDC capacitor on my my indoor yellow top optama solar system and I run a freezer full time and it seems to have helped a lot also I run my computer all day and most the night seemed like the capacitor helped a lot . I bought it off of ebay.
+shartne Thanks, can you shoot me a picture of your setup. I've never worked with capacitors and I'm not sure of the wiring.
+rhandsom I will try to remember to do that. It pretty simple. pos and neg wires to the pos and neg side of the out put on the batts.
Thanks, I believe I've found something that just may do the trick. www.energysavermart.com/
they want too much money for that. My DC capacitor only cost me about 20 bucks that AC one is waay to costly. Its about hundred dollars. Its only a capacitor like on a air conditioner. My DC one wont kill you either like that AC one can.
Thanks for the reply, and good point.
It looks like the orange plastic covers are in the way for removing the vent cap
Can we get a link in the description for the model of the components you are using? Sounds stupid but I could only find cheap car audio circuit breakers and yours seems higher quality. What brand are they?
Here is the circuit breakers I'm using ("Blue Sea Systems 187-Series Circuit Breakers"), found on Amazon. (Blue Sea Systems Class T 225 to 400A Fuse Block with Insulating Cover), (Blue Sea Systems Class T Fuses),( 4/0 battery cable),. For termination lugs, I use "(Panduit LCA4/0-38-X Code Conductor Lug, One Hole, Standard Barrel With Window, 4/0 AWG Copper Conductor Size, 3/8" Stud Hole Size, Purple Color Code, 0.14" Tongue Thickness, 1.06" Tongue Width, 1.19" Neck Length, 2.45" Overall Length") , ( "Cole Hersee M750 Battery Selector Switch"). ( "JEGS Performance Products 10522 Four Post Terminal Bus Bar"), All components can be found on Amazon. Google search the items names in this list and it should take you right to them on Amazon. Hope this helps.
A possible alternative to super caps is the Aquion sodium ion battety 48v 2.6kWh non toxic salt water solar storage battery, made in Pennsylvania right in the good ole USA, very famous new company about 5 years old, most tech companies such as google and eBay and walmart and many office buildings have bought these battery banks and strung dozens together inside containers outside their offices to store power for standby and night time purchase and storage of power for day time use when rates are much higher. Not expensive for what you get and warranty for 8 years. High tolerance to abuse. It's just a salt water battery. Sodium . They claim better lifetime value durability compared to nickel iron, lead acid, and lithium ion. S10 battery stack on eBay only 1385 pick up at their factory in gordonville! Many tv shows have profiled this company they're hot...
+christothegreat1 Thanks, but at this point I'll stick to NiFe, the Aquion battery is pretty cool technology, but like new technology, it's longevity and reliability is still unknown outside of a lab.
how much does 19 of those weigh compared to equivalent power in an 18650 li-ion system? I imagine this fits somewhere inbetween deep cycle AGM batteries and li-ion...
Ni-Fe cells weigh much more than lithium cells, the biggest selling point of lithium based cells is their size in relation to their energy density.
who was the source for your batteries?
Can you rejuvenate a lead acid battery by cleaning and replacing acid. whats the best solar panel for the money for a small system to power cabin ?
"Some" lead acid batteries can be rejuvenated buy replacing the acid and using a device to rejuvenate and de-sulfate the plates. However, at some point they will be too far gone and will need to be replaced due the fact that their active material that makes up the plates will slowly degenerate over time. As for panels, I would 1st recommend Solar World panels from the AltE store, next I would recommend Renogy 250w panels. These are a good buy, watt vs price.
Thanks for speedy reply.
Stephen Carter look into a lead alum conversion , where you replace the acid with an alum electrolyte
I am just curious how your Chinese Nickel Iron batteries are working out?
Are you still using them?
Are they performing as designed?
Would you recommend them?
Appreciate you taking the time to respond. Thank you!
The cells appear to be working as designed. I ran into 1 bad cell out of the 20 I received in my shipment, the cell was shorted. I took it apart and discovered that the quality of these cells is not that good. However, they appear to be working like they should. It's only been just over a year, so the jury is still out. As for recommending them, minus the quality issues and finding a reputable manufacturer\distributor, I would still recommend them at this point.
did you say it was 5 kwh and you charged it up in 1 hour? i thought you only had 3 kw on the roof? you should measure how much you can drain from the battery's when the sun goes down. that would be interesting.. do you still use the main power coming in from the street? And you should up the cut off to 19v if 1v per cell is the lowest you want to go.
+sven Actually I'm still breaking the batteries in. These batteries have to go through a series of cycles to bring them up to their rated capacity. For this purpose I use grid power to charge them up, due to the constant voltage of 31.3v and around 50 amps. Unfortunately, I've found out that I can't rely on traditional meter settings to tell me the SOC. Also, I'm playing with the low voltage cutoff settings to get as close to 1.0v per cell as possible. When the fridge kicks in and the inverter shuts off, the voltage immediate jumps to 21v to 22v, so that leads me to believe that the 18v is under load a that specific moment in time so the overall voltage is higher than 1.0.
Flooded lead acid batteries vent hydrogen, not sulfuric acid... the sulfur oxide ions never leave the solution, which is why you just have to keep adding distilled water to keep them topped off. Lead acid batteries also can handle a lot more than C/20 with C/5 not being uncommon. That is just the discharge rate that you can get the full rated AH capacity out of them. Faster discharge gets you fewer AH. Peak amperage is lower for NiFe according to wikipedia. Your typical home PC UPS uses sealed lead acid batteries with a discharge rate of C/0.2 or so, which is usually why you don't get near the rated capacity when fully loaded.
Thanks for the comments and clarifications. Good information for the viewers.
Where do you get your batteries? What is the manufacture of the batteries? Thanks.
+Brad Call The batteries came from the factory direct from China through a US distributor www.beutilityfree.com. Don't know the exact manufacturer name.
thanks
hello rhandsom great video. have been running my home for years on a120v battery bank lead acid for many years they are old telephone batteries that got thrtyyears ago.and a home brew 5kw i nverter.and a 4kw solar aray. Look in home power magazne 73, a solar and wind system 10 years later.. I had an origional 6v edison battery i pcked out of a junk yard. i REPLACED THE ELECTROLITE AND AAND THAT BATTERY WAS LIKE NEW UNDER LOAD TEST 70 AH.. kEEP THE fAITH jOHN MILLARD
Outstanding testimony to durability of the Nickel Iron Batteries. Thanks for comments. Hopefully folks with now get the picture.
john millard good to see the Revival of that technology cool thank you
I sort of wonder which side is the FE? Negative or positive.
If I remember correctly, FE is positive the nickel is negative.
Nickel is traditionally the positive, iron is negative--
Very good info, well presented. What will you eventually use the 20th battery for, a spare?
I've added and additional Nickel Cadmium bank to my Ni-Fe bank and I've incorporated the spare cell into it. This is my latest update video with a little commentary on the longevity of Nickel based cells.
ruclips.net/video/IspB4Bg8XHA/видео.html
How $ did your NiFe (iron) batteries cost? How much amphours watts voltage etc, thanks
These cells, with shipping, cost around $4500 for 200Ah for a 24v system. I've heard of better deals, but I haven't done any research.
How do you figure how much solar and batteries you need? What does 5KW translate to? I have no idea how to figure this stuff out.
I thought I had answered this comment, but this video here from Tin Hat Ranch explains things very well.
ruclips.net/video/w4qcoEXYqK0/видео.html
cool set up! I wish I could come over and neaten up all that wiring, lol! it's driving me nuts. some tie wraps , spiral wrap, and looms .......
+TUNADOG2GO Thanks for the comments. Yes, it's not in the same league as a professional who does this for a living, but it's functional and most importantly, safe.
+rhandsom i'm obsessive compulsive about neat wiring , lol!
+TUNADOG2GO I can definitely appreciate that. And I would agree that it could be better.
Take the one battery you have left and hook it on the battery bank in parallel . That way you will not lose your storage
Thanks for the comment and the suggestion, I agree with you and I have since done just that. I hooked it up in parallel with one of the weaker cells.
Hey, nice system. I'm running 20 cells like this, how much capacity did you loose going to 19?
No much, It's still 200Ah, you do loose a little in terms of total watt hours.
The nickel iron battery was invented by Waldemar Jungner in 1897. In 1898 he invented the nickel cadmium battery which he found to be far superior. He sold the nickel iron design to Edison in 1899. Edison believed that he could solve the issues with iron poisoning and electrolyte contamination. He mass produced the battery until 1905. Many customers reported short cycle life. He stopped production. By 1908, industrial companies were pressuring him to resume production because it was a great standby battery. He continued to write about his frustration about being unable to overcome the problems with the battery and eventually in 1970 exide bought what remained of his battery company. They thought they could fix it, but ceased production after only 3 years. Nickel cadmiums superior design is why it was chosen for jelly roll style portable cells, and nickel iron faded into obsolescence
Thanks for your comments. Good information, can you cite your sources for us.
www.mpoweruk.com/specifications/comparisons.pdf
www.mpoweruk.com/nickel_iron.htm
biggest drawback I see is Dendrite growth causes short cycle life and self discharge
Thanks again for your comments. Yes, Dendrite growth causes the cell to internally short and the 20% to 30% self discharge has been verified by some. Again, thanks for your comments and your references.
Nice battery setup & information...
Thanks for the comments.
That battery bank is only 200ah. When you hook up in series, the voltage increases but the capacity remains the same. When you hook up in parallel, the voltage remains the same but the capacity increases. Example: 19 cells at 1.2 vdc 200ah connected in series would be a 22.8 vdc 200ah battery, whereas 19 cells at 1.2 vdc 200ah connected in parallel would be a 1.2 vdc 3,800ah battery. Great video nonetheless!
Thanks for the comments and any clarifications.
where did you get your new batteries at? The nickel iron ones?
They came from China through a US distributor named BeUtilityFree. There are a few others as well.
Ever thought of joining the two battery banks to make one 48 volt system? Less power loss due to less amperage list via cable resistance, which adds up to a significant suk of power lost over time...
+christothegreat1 My inverter is 24v based so I can't go with a 48v bank. I would have to buy another inverter. Also, with the thicker 4/0 wiring I would assume the voltage loss should be negligible.
When you ordered your NiFe cells did you order directly from China or through a local retailer?
If you ordered directly from China how much import Tariff did you end up paying for your 200Ah bank>
Trying to decide if I want to order directly from China or not. I obtained pricing for a 1.2V 500Ah cell from HengMing for around $200 a piece. So a set of 20 pieces will cost ~ $4,000 plus $95 shipping. They will ship dry, so no concerns about Hazmat. I am just not sure how much the US import duty/tariff will be.
Thanks again for your videos. They have been very informational and an inspiration.
If you feel more comfortable we can take this conversation to an email thread.
Thanks Jim
Thanks for the comment and your question, I actually ordered my cells from a US distributor named BeUtilityFree. And $4K for 20 500Ah cells is not a bad price, considering I paid the same amount for 20 200Ah cells, You'll be getting double the capacity for what I paid. Shipping dry will definitely help, mine shipped full. The shipping for me was around 5 or 6 hundred dollars freight charges, which makes sense when they come from California with the electrolyte in them. Going the distributor route means someone else deals with the headache of tariffs, customs, shipping etc, going the direct route means you incur more of the risk, but the cost of of the goods is a lot less. I would guess that all in all you should be prepared to spend around 5K to get the cells from China to your door.
@@rhandsom h
Hey how you doing man and I'm just looking at your video and I like what I see repairing to do my own solar wind turbine system but I need a good battery Bank and I see nickel-iron batteries they do really good all they do awesome for Off the Grid and I have a question for you and what website did you buy the system all heard that you said you bought it from China but do you have a website do you order form or how that works
Really great information thanks for the video.
Thanks for the comment.
You are very welcome!
Really nice setup there! These batteries are something that I'm interested in getting for myself someday. They are a big investment, knowing you will get quality delivered without running into problems from the manufacturer. There are many advantages to this power storage device. Looking forward to future postings. I'd get rid of the steel bus and use copper though. Nickel will only go up in price now, you bought at the right time. I see antique edison oil bottles, is oil added to electrolite to prevent evaporation? Thanks for sharing!!!
Thanks for the comments. So far they have proven that they are worth the investment. I use the steel bars because the battery interconnection bars that come shipped with the batteries are also flat plate steel. I don't have the oil, but I have a auto watering system on order that will deal with water evaporation. In my current videos, I show the performance of these batteries under load. I've drained them down to 11% and 13% State Of Charge multiple times. So far they have performed as advertised. They are expensive, $3499 with shipping, but considering they should last a long time, 30 or 40 plus years, I think it was worth it.
Are your batteries individually fused? I know someone who had one battery short out and it destroyed his whole bank.
Both battery banks are fused in the center of the banks to prevent this occurrence. See this video for a better look.
ruclips.net/video/WHxkvf0FZJA/видео.html&lc=z13xuhq4rmubgpu5304cc32y4mvsy5agxak
why wouldn't you just put the 20th battery in parallel with one of the other 19 batteries? Your voltage would still remain the same but it would increase amp hours.
Thanks for the comment, I actually eventually wound up doing just that.
What's the link to purchase these batteries?
+matteo4m www.beutilityfree.com/
thanks
No problem. Glad to help.
i got a 10 cell set up which wont work with a normal solar charger because of the float is around 13v (it's too low a charge voltage)... so I'm using a dc to dc converter changing the output to 14.5v... its a temporary fix till i buy an outback solar charger and outback inverter... maybe i should share my setup...
Thanks for the comments. Please share your setup with us. Shoot a video and give a run down of what you have. I and many of us would be glad to see it. Also, a charge controller with the appropriate charging voltage range is definitely the way to go.
Update: I found a cheap charge controller for £160 which charges at a higher voltage of 12v to 17v, by Tracer... just need to program your maximum voltages and your float values... its now charging a 200w thought this might be a better charging solution for you...www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EPsolar-Tracer-BN-10A-20A-30A-40A-MPPT-Solar-Charger-Controller-Regulator-MT-50-/251987633102?roken=cUgayN
Thanks for the comments. I have an AC Coupled system. With an AC coupled system I don't use charge controllers.
I heard about a man that had an electrical background that had a camp out in the country where there were high voltage transmission wires that ran overhead close to his camp . He made an antenna, and was able to capture free voltage through the air ,enough to run his camp. He did so for several years but power company eventually caught him, and sued him. what a bummer.
I've heard of this approach to receiving power through "induction", however I believe Myth Busters proved that you couldn't do it in this video ruclips.net/video/_WDoxzoOePA/видео.html
Thanks for the quick reply, watched video, said plausible but not practical.
In all fairness, there are others who say that they performed the experiment incorrectly.
Just a random thought, can you use soft starts on appliances?
+Ed H I'm wondering the same thing for like Window AC units
+Ed H I've looked into it after your comment and it seems that they are more geared towards HVAC.
Hi there hope y'all been doing okay ive been dealing with bad health problems i have Edison batteries i cant take care of anymore do you know of anyone who could use them i need to get rid of them as soon as possible if you can spread the word thank you
Do you still have them, John?
@@Good4All4Good yes they are for sale .
where can i get these batteries?
You can get them from Iron Edison, BEUTILITYFREE, Hengming Battery, Bimble Solar, etc. They are widely available from various sources from China direct.
I got mine directly from China, for less than half the price of Iron Edison, including shipping.
I just did this math, the capacity of your nickel iron bank is 19 cells times 200 amp hours per cell times 0.2 volts of useable voltage drop (1.2 is full charge and 1.0 is lower voltage limit per cell) equals 760 watt hours. That's 760 watts continuous power output for one hour, or 380 watts for 2 hours. Or 76 watts continuous for 10 hours. That's not a heck of a lot of capacity. Love how they'll last for 100 years though. They should be enough capacity to run your fridge for 10 hours all night long from say 10pm til 8am at the 78 watts continuous.
+christothegreat1 See I was also confused at his capacity level. All cells in series doesn't raise amp hours. So all equal 200 amp hours and that's what you end up with 200 amp hours.
+Jerry Densmore yes 200 Amp hours but we want to know Watt hours. Watt hours equals Amps hours times Voltage drop. For nickel iron cells, voltage start is 1.2V minus voltage end which is 1.0 Volts, so Voltage drop is 0.2 Volts. So, Watt hours = 200 times 0.2 = 40 watt hours PER CELL. Times 19 cells, equals 760 Watt hours, for the entire battery of 19 nickel iron cells. This rather small capacity is because nickel iron cells only let you drain them down by 17% of their full capacity, from 1.2 volts down to 1.0 volts, in order to last 100 years...
+christothegreat1 i was a bit confused about your math, but I see what you were trying to say. However, at full charge the battery voltage is 1.45v per cell. 1.2 is just nominal voltage. These batteries are rated at C/5, which is 200/5 = 40A, So in Theory, I should be able to run these batteries for 4 to 5 hours at a drain of 40Amps. Unfortunately, the batteries have to be initially cycled repeatedly to break them in so that they can run at their full capacity, so it's too early to tell right now. It's still a learning process at this point.
+christothegreat1 Your math is still confusing me. I'm not familiar with Watts = Amps x Voltage Drop. Multiplying the average or nominal battery voltage times the battery capacity in amp-hours gives you an estimate of how many watt-hours the battery contains. Please see this website for reference www.powerstream.com/battery-capacity-calculations.htm
rhandsom You are confusing charge/discharge rates with capacity. C5 and C10 refer to max current draw and charge RATES, While capacity of the bank is voltage x current x time = ENERGY. To compute energy, you will need to account for the cutout voltage of the battery, because at the point ea cell is at 1 Volt, you should not draw any more power. Makes sense?
Great video!
Thanks.
Pretty sweet!,
Thanks, very informative :-)
Thanks for the comment.
The prices are WAY too much !
EDIT: I forgot the price of nickel is, well, comparatively cheap! It's only $6 or $7 a pound.
Yer the price of the off grid set ups is a killer
Take a drink every time he say "Now."
add soft start to heavy draw appliances.
Thanks for the comments. I added ultra capacitors to handle heavy loads, does very well.
your Voltage swing when the motors come on is because your cells are not cycled or run in yet. I have been living on nife cells for 3 years and they only get better. If you want any tips or long term info contact us at 24hoursolarpower.com
just something to help with yr life of yr batterys do not have niclkle iron batterys with lead battery in the same room the acid in the lead will go in your nickle iron not good hope this help from a nickel iron battery owner
Thanks for the comments and your concern. I double checked with the distributor of the batteries, since they are responsible for the warranty, I explained the situation and he also saw the video showing the setup. He is confident that using sealed AGMs shouldn't pose a problem like flooded lead acid batteries would. Not saying that there isn't any risk, but with sealed AGMs the risk is minimal.
don't count on it ion migration is permeating the room already...........get those lead acid batteries out of there, never underestimate the power of the sulfate ion to migrate, its got a very strong charge and will be electrostatically attracted to the OH electrolyte........... might take years but the oh electrolyte will act as a scavenger for all the sulfate ions in the room
Thanks for the comment, I'll research more to better understand your concerns.
BE CAREFUL a float charge can keep the water liquid (flooded acid ) type batteries warm enough that all the water evaporates and you lose the whole pack at one time; it seems unlikely but is very likely in fact unless current is completely disconnected to zero (a flloat charge is too much for extended periods of time).
Thanks for the comments. These are nickel iron cells, a prolonged float charge doesn't hurt these cells.
heavy gauge wire with many many strands conduct best because in DC modes, the electrons travel mostly near or on the surface of the wire, hence for DC, more surface is more conductive; Yeah theory says at the center of a wire the DC current is near zero . Thats why DC higher amp systems use the many many strands in one thick bundle to decrease losses and over heating problem.
With DC current electrons flow through the entire area of the conductor. The only reason to use fine strands is for ease of bending and handling for DC current. Electrons will flow better on the surface of conductors used in high-frequency AC due to skin effect.
kuhrd Wrong, u got it backwards, think why do DC battery cables use so many strands, vs AC which use solid thinner cables. The DC likes more Surface area for increased conductivity, hence more strands make more sirface area.
Most heavy duty DC cables are traditionally used in areas where flexibility is desired or required like welding cable. Since welding cable is common and easy to work with it makes sense that it is also used for battery banks. You could substitute the cable with solid busbar of the same cross sectional area and it would be capable of carrying the same amount of current.
Here is a Wikipedia section on skin effect en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect Notice that it only affects ac current.
I have a set............in 6 months their capacity to deliver charge had dropped 50% and the electrolyte was black with sludge in the bottom, used 30 litres of distilled water. Terrible. Hopefully not all brands are as bad as mine. After replacing the electrolyte, I did get capacity right back up to 5.3 kw/hr which is actually above spec. The problem was the idiots that sold them in the first place, they gave the wrong charging specs and didnt know that using these hard reduces the life of the electrolyte. They might have even mixed up the electrolyte solution using poor quality chemicals and ordinary tap water which contaminates it, and reduces performance.
If I had the funds I would have the same setup you are running. Buy one time cry one time lol.. Brother I was going to ask. Would you mind doing kind of a small over all of your TED... I would like to know what my house is using.. Would be nice for the solar as well but I can look at that on my Grid tie info.. I just have no clue what all I will need to get the read out of what my house is using.. There webpag sucks for help..
+yankey4 No problem, I'll see about dedicating a video to the TED 5002 setup
i use agm batteries on my smaller system. i am experimiting with capacitors for additional storage & starting boost , these were salvaged from a 25 hp frequincy drive. the system construct is based on back up power for lighting , running a freezer and or power tools to be used in case of mains power loss. plug and play design for differing power needs. differing inverters for higher or lower power needs.
the plug and play scheme is also geared to part replacement of the system components , more likely available in times of need. please check out my vid keep it simple solar click on my icon i like to keep it simple and cheaper.
Thanks for the comments.
Forget all that batteries go capacitors the last 30 years 64 volts
turn your acid batteries to alkaline instead of acid then no dangerous situation
lost me at the bakery
You should get those other batteries off the cement floor.
grnmacheen1 knowledge thanks for the comment, I've since removed the AGM batteries.
The cement floor thing is a myth. The batteries will not lose charge from sitting on a cement floor.
DIY is the not right name Biy buy it yourself