The Politics of Loving the Bad Guy
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- Опубликовано: 13 окт 2024
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A little h*rny and a little discourse-y, we will talk about some of the many conversations surrounding rooting for the bad guy.
Also, this video was ad restricted, so if you enjoyed it and can, please support the Patreon. xx
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Edited by Joey & Princess Weekes
Sources:
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Had to mute the "I wanna be bad" part because YT decided a week later to claim it XD. I apologize.
Hey not to be sidetracked but I love your shirt, that's all love you bye!
I love your video and the points you make it.
Also me and your are swapped on endeavor and daddy daemon.
thank you for making this video, when I was a teenager I could lazily ,,justify" to myself my problematic ships etc. just by being gay but lately I was having trouble making my peace with it :-D
Something I realized today after seeing a TikTok Repost of Angel Reese where this light skinned black woman in the TikTok was being very anti black towards dating black men and very pro white towards dating white men. Is that as much as I see redemption as the most beautiful and amazing thing of all.
Sometimes we all have to stay on code with the belief that, “There Will Be No Redemption Tour!”
The 304 Phase has given birth to this Redemption Tour Phase” now. Where people think they can talk crazy on social media or do wild things irl and think that they can just go on a Redemption Tour a few years later and all will be forgotten and forgiven and we say, “No!”
As great as Moses was he offended God so much that he wasn’t allowed into the Promise Land. And that’s how we need to be towards anti black - black folks.
They no longer get an invite to the cookout. Stay over there with White Zaddy.
I think one of the most important things that often gets overlooked in discourse over well written bad characters is no matter how much fun it is to watch them, no matter how entertaining they are, they were never meant to be modeled. They are a warning, not a role model. And villains who are relatable I think are all the more important. It let's us see what "too far" in our own ideology and morals looks like. Let's us explore methods that *don't* work. We can 100% empathize with Kill Monger and his driving force and still think burning all the heart shaped herb (while a behavior produced from grief, anger, and an extremely destructive military training) was /not the right way/ to do things.
Tangentially related: one of my biggest pet peeves is when people think stories show bad things (like villains) means that the author supports that. Like the idea of a villain or a bad thing being a warning for the reader is totally lost on some people and it's the worst lol
I thought I'd have something to add to the conversation, but honestly this is the most perfect comment on this subject that I could have imagined.
Burning the herb is the 1st thing you think about when it comes to killmonger being evil? Lmfao
I mean, M'baku is right there. I can get behind him.
Killmonger is the real hero for me, considering the official "heroes" of Black Panther are representatives of a monarchy who team up with the CIA to stop a black radical from inciting a global revolution. Then turn around and act like more "low-income" housing is the answer. So essentially, COINTELPRO: The Movie. Like the pro-US, anti-black revolutionary propaganda is so strong in that film, it hurts.
Female villains always draw me in because growing up I was never allowed to be angry or defend myself even when people (usually boys) wronged me, I think a lot of women experienced that growing up so it’s somehow gratifying to see these women act out in really extreme ways as a response to what happened. Even though you I don’t excuse or support their actions it’s somehow cathartic to see characters like Carmilla from Castlevania or to an extent Azula become incarnations of the trauma that being put in certain confines causes you.
Wow. I never thought of it like that. I always tell my husband I want to be evil sorceress. But your comment made me realize why. Even though bad guys usually pay in the end for all they have done. They still get away with it for a while.
Dang, you just put into words why I could never hate Azula. I love her.
I completely agree and it reminds me of this one movie I watched super long ago where this woman was drugged and r/ped so she kidnapped him and held him hostage in a shed then mutilated him by chopping off his dick and his limbs and other stuff. I honestly don't even know how to describe the feeling. I think a lot of women just want to be able to fight back but really just can't
Wow. Are you kidding me rn?! It’s men who are taught from a young age that they can’t hit a woman. Women get away with doing shit to men that if another man tried to do, he would end up in a fight.
Thankfully a lot more men aren’t letting women getaway with one-way aggression anymore.
If loving Villanelle from Killing Eve is wrong, then I don't wanna be right
No yeah
True ending is book ending
I love her clothes and how she speaks so many languages. The actress who plays her is so gifted!
Facts
I removed my like because the 666 likes was too poetic
One of the things that I really love about the Black Panther movies is that they give us complex and compelling villains that are POC. As a black woman and long time villian f*cker it can be frustrating that the interesting villains are almost always white. Killmonger and Namor are both hugely popular with MCU fans to the point that people will argue that they aren’t even villians. I disagree, but it is kind of cool seeing them get the Draco in leather pants treatment that a character like Loki gets. Seeing poc heroes is great but I love that we are entering a time when poc are allowed to be “problematic”.
He killed his girlfriend and other bw lol..how can he not be a villain?
@@afrosamourai400 Oh I absolutely agree Killmonger is a villain! He killed his gf and a Dora Milaje, burned the heart shaped herb, tried to kill Shuri and was trying to conquer the world basically. His backstory, MBJ’s charisma and the fact that many people resonate with what he says about marginalized people make some fans view him as a sort of anti hero though. I’ve seen whole threads debating it. Personally I can acknowledge the parts of his philosophy I agree with and find him compelling while still acknowledging the bad he did and placing him firmly in the villain category. I think Namor as an anti hero vs villain is a little less clear cut but I still view him as the villain (albeit a complex and somewhat sympathetic one) in Wakanda Forever.
Agreed. I'd even argue that the egregious things the Black Panther villains do is because if they didn't do them (Killmonger harming Black women, Namor being the reason Ramonda dies), they would be TOO sympathetic to audiences. We understand their motives all too well, so they need to do really bad things to solidify their villainy otherwise we'd be rooting for them.
@@deidrawells1249 he wanted to build an empire and kill people who never did him wrong...so he was still a villain, even without killing women he's still bad.
@@afrosamourai400 The problem about a lot of the really effective villains, though, is that they're good at convincing people that they're not villains. Killmonger was definitely evil, but that might have been hard for some people to realize unless he was shown actually doing things that can't be argued to be acceptable.
I think the other part of how the criticism of liking villains has really blown up is the fact that in the last several years, people have gotten a very close-up look at what villainy looks like when the mask comes off in the real world, and it is anything but attractive, fascinating or nuanced- Villains in the real life don't really have grandiose or complex plans, and are exceedingly petty, short-sighted, and vile down to the roots without any substantial redeeming quality or packaged with some kind of sympathetic motivation for the harm they callously or zealously inflict on other people.
💯
I suppose my counter-feeling to that would be to question the use of 'villain' as a useful category of real people.
Villain is used to describe a character whose moral values and behaviour are harmful, but specifically deemed harmful by the author. If the author believes in the divine right of kings is morally uplifting and correct, then the leader of the peasants revolt is the villain of his story regardless of what I think.
Unless you believe in an attentive God, reality doesn't have an author. There's just us and our collective social agreements of what is moral and harmful, which is not at all collected or agreed.
The closest thing we have to an author to dictate the correct values across swathes of our population is our authorities, and I don't think it's a big shock when it turns out the values and behaviour deemed correct by our bodies of authority tend to be those beneficial to it's upkeep and the ones who run them.
Meanwhile they do seem to find a functional use for a term like villain; like protes-I mean villainous distuptors, or political oppone-I mean evil traitors. After all their moral values and behaviour are harmful to those deemed correct by those with the power to authorise and enforce this narrative. And sure, maybe the minority group can't really help it if mantaining the system of authority benefits from them being scapegoated, exploited, violated or removed, however if they try to prevent that benefit, well that is villainous behaviour.
A lot of people are petty, short-sighted, and even at times cruel, few have the power to have those traits affect large swaythes.
I don't agree with the notion that repeatedly cruel behaviours happen because someone is just inately evil, nor do I think that it's a result of concious angst.
What I do think happens is that the singular perspective, circular arguments that make the basis of legitimacy for centralised and hierarchical power legitimises itself on, is not one that thrives on the self-reflection of it's top earners and benefitiaries, where a person lower on the rungs is going to get checked hard if they get main character syndrome.
I'm not saying the concept of heroes and villains is bad when used in discussion of fiction; the nature of stories is inevitably limited to the number of storytellers for each tale.
However I don't see who stands to benefit in appying that framework to our chaotic, complex world starring over 6 billion people, other than authoritarian power structures.
Or those of who are navigating being forced into that framework under the 'Villain' label and are seeking to reclaim it rather than be "redeemed" in line with the values that designated us immoral in the first place.
...You can call me a villain for writing a short article though, what happened....
@@gota7738 You don't have to believe in an attentive God, or any sort of God at all, to believe that there are things that are right or wrong independently of anyone's beliefs. Of course, many in authority wouldn't want people to realize that, as they might then start trying to figure out what those things are, and realize that many actions of those in authority, including branding people "villains" for the reasons you described, are wrong. Which might be a good reason to stop using those terms, either permanently or until we can start using them correctly.
@@samueldimmock694 I mean, while I do believe that some beliefs and values are right and wrong, I also have to accept that I don't have a reference point for it that trumps anyone else.
It's not a matter that people who are authoritarians are in power and are using 'villain' on the wrong people, it's that I don't believe you can hold that power without being authoritarian to an extent, and a term like 'villain' can only be applied to any function against those not in power. It's too abstract a word otherwise.
@@gota7738 May I suggest you take a look at ethical philosophy?
Listen; when I was in middle school I had the biggest crush on Azula, I never fully got over it.
She def helped me realize I was bisexual. Her, Emma Watson, Xena, Mulan ...
you so real for this😭😭
There are many hot scary ladies out there 😭
That tired "Sis we are aware" YUP I think what I hate is the assumption that we don't know the character we're a fan of
right? yeah i know that he committed various war crimes, arson, attempted murder, attempted genocide, heresy, mass murder, and so much more but like that cant stop me. he’s the best written character out of the rest there. I’m not even excusing his bs, just accepting it.
@@renoirrrmaybe I’m in the wrong fandom circles but I know for atleast HP when you get to the marauder subsection it seems like everyone there has made up a different version of those characters and completely disregard canon, to the point where if you try to talk about the bullying and SA they don’t even know what your talking about because they are so deep into fanon I don’t even think a lot of the newer fans have read the books. I think it’s fine for people to have their fanon versions but it gets very frustrating when they come for other characters (mostly snape) with bad faith criticisms and then act like their faves are flawless. At least that’s my experience…
@@remytherat2929 yeah I wasn’t talking abt HP but I myself have witnessed the fanon marauders and tbh ur right. I hate it when ppl do the thing where they hate another character but like their faves bc they’re so perfect. A lot of times I forgive it, like maybe the writing of the character(s) is a bit convoluted so i can’t blame anyone if they get things wrong or mixed up, but then, esp in the genshin fandom, things could be clear as a frickin piece of glass against a blue sky and they would still mischaracterize them. Honestly my bigger pet peeve is making the character’s fanon worse than their actual character. Like aint no way u just called this super caring dude this guy who only does good things to get off on it like some pervert. Worse is when they turn this war god into an uwu tiny meow meow baby. What’s with everyone babying characters? These are grown ass adults ur talking abt!
@@renoirrr omg I know what you mean ugh. If I have to hear one more time that Snape would be a p*do creep if Harry was a girl I will scream. I truly don’t understand the concept of just making up a guy to hate. There is usually plenty of things canon that you can hate about them so why make them worse??
I think I've definitely irritated people by not acknowledging this before. My usual reason was that some people who love the bad guy seem to want to change who the character is, like they're insecure about liking the evil bastard and would rather reinterpret them into being a non-evil bastard. IDK, I'm overly pedantic about fandom anyway, there are always ways I can improve my interaction with it
what i’ve realized about myself recently, as someone who’s always loved villains from birth (would literally cry as a four year old when randall from monsters inc got his LMAO), is that shipping to me doesn’t mean “i want to see these characters become better and live happily ever after,” though that can definitely be it sometimes. it’s just about exploring a dynamic for me. sometimes i want to see a relationship play out between two toxic, compelling characters then crash and burn. make! him! worse!!!!
My exact sentiments in my shipping of hannibal and will. Theyre toxic as hell but i wanna see hannibal make will worse lol😊
@@jessalynn9143 It's Namor and Shuri for me lol. I just want to see the dynamic play out. I know it's not healthy, but it's very Hades/Persephone, and I love Hades/Persephone. And yes, BatB mostly had everything to do with it XD.
@@MadameChristie oh i 1000%. When he asked shuri to burn the world with him I was in the theater like if she won’t I will. Immediately started reading fics about them as soon as I got home from the theater. I hope that in the next movie they develop their relationship with each other more although idk if we’d ever get ememies to lovers in marvel. I mean loki tried but the selfcest kinda ruined what could’ve been a great loki/mobius romance. If we do get any romance in the next black panther though if we can’t get shuri and namor, I’m hoping for shuri and riri
@@MadameChristie also i love hades and persephone too . I love to see how different writers interpret their dynamic. Also persephone being goddess of spring and queen of the underworld speaks to me as someone who loves cute, soft things and pastels while also wearing mostly black and having interests horror and darker topics/genres, like my music shuffles between metal and kpop on most days lol
Oh, I totally want them to live happily ever after...in the most toxic, f'ed up way.
hearing "draco in leather pants" trope for the first time in YEARS makes me immediately feel very old.
Yep- was coming of age in fandom when it was coined and I feel ancient now.
@@catherineelmore2004 the fact that people don't know cassie claire for this or "the very secret lotr diaries" just boggles the mind
i think hannibal really changed my perspective on the whole loving a villain discourse 'cause like if i can love a character who's a cannibal murderer abuser manipulator because he's well written and just really cool without trivializing any of those things in real life than so can other people with like a fictional guy who's bad to women or something idk
Genuinely, same. I was pretty distant to the idea of loving villainous characters until I saw Hannibal. The whole show really changed my perspective on how I engage with media.
Yeeees. Especially Hannibal in Silence of the Lambs. Doesn't mean I condone cannibalism in real life or real life killers. That's the problem I feel some people be having nowadays. They can't separate fiction from reality.
For a long time I've felt that in the race to not seem racist or problematic, so much media make their POC characters bland as hell. They don't get the complicated backgrounds, the juicy personalities. They're designed to fade into the background while the white characters get all the good stuff. When they're bland, they have nowhere to go, no ARC, they just exist to be spice.
I believe it was verilybitch that made a video with that central claim about how good LGBTQ representation was boring and unrealistic because no person can possibly be good representation.
This is something I'm noticing. Just look at the roles Joaquin Phoenix had. I want to see more black actors in those kinds of roles and without the need to make it about race like Killmonger. The closest thing was Samuel L Jackson as Mr. Glass.
Which is funny because that’s very 90s of them, Token minorities
Same with queer characters. I want media to show queer people for the often terrible people we are. Stop with the bland sympathetic treatment, it's just so boring seeing queer characters as nothing but the Lawful Good archetype.
@@BooksRebound Some of the best queer characters I've seen thus far, as far as having actual personalities and *NOT* being perfect have been the cast of Our Flag Means Death. Taika Waititi as a brilliantly hilarious and violent queer Blackbeard, Rhys Darby's wonderfully incompetent but well dressed, sophisticated, and surprisingly tough Gentleman Pirate character, and Vico Ortiz as a nonbinary, deadly assassin turned pirate with a well rounded backstory, and sweet, genuine love stories for all of them? A pirate rom-com series has turned out to be some of the best queer representation I've ever seen, and I can't wait for the next season.
It's tragic how a lot of leftist content nowadays has to go through these media literacy 101 pieces (see also: James Somerton/FD Signifier) because the lack of media literacy prevents us from having better/more mature/more impactful conversations about intersectional content in pop-culture and culture at large.
The right has spent and continues to spend a lot of effort destroying academic institutions and their ability to impart useful toolboxes to future generations. This is one of the consequences.
A major issue has been the merging of “cinema” and “entertainment”. There’s a difference but there has been a push to place meaning and agenda into content that was never meant for it which ruins it for a little bit of everyone.
i feel that this can be blamed on the fast-paced production in entertainment industries to make money ASAP. everyone learns something new every day, but with this, time for practising those lessons is wasted on getting into the newer problems.
James Somerton! Heck yes! I'm one of his patrons!
@@Sly-MooseBad news.
“Vegeta is a war criminal” just unlocked something deep in my soul and mind. I’m forever changed.
"Twitter is not all discourse" YEAH. When I stopped talking about fandom online my life sincerely improved. Even the bad faith readers on Tumblr can do so much to dampen your desire to engage with a work. For me I can't love a text unless I'm critically digging in
I lasted a year on Reddit before I gave up on the subreddit of the mangas I'm reading. I inevitably ran afoul of the worst chronically online trolls that populate manga fandoms. I find that my life has improved immensely now that I just read people's takes knowing I'd rather not engage with most, since they take others' opinions in bad faith and it becomes a toxic space
LITERALLY THIS
I genuinely lack the vocabulary to describe how much better I've felt discussing media with just my close friends. Like, I deleted my reddit account, avoided fandom spaces except for things like fanart (and the occasional communal dunking on a trashy series we all like, such as the late chapters of Jujutsu Kaisen) and now I solely share my media opinions with people I already like. And yknow what? We have the most engaging talks. I disagree with them just as much as I disagreed with online randoms, but there's none of the animosity. I can explain it to them, and they can explain back to me, and we can stay good friends. Better ones, even.
Suffice to say, it's important to control your own interaction with other fans of the stuff you like.
Authentic old person here, who used to participate in community roleplay based on Anne Rice's vampires back when the internet was still Usenet and majordomo mailing lists (look those up if unfamiliar, history is important!). Lestat de Lioncourt is every bit the monster you described from the tv show (I haven't watched it) and then some. It's interesting that on the one hand, I was very much into the Lestat/Louis ship myself when I was in my early 20s, but I also knew that Lestat was the epitome of _toxic._
The second novel in the series, _The Vampire Lestat,_ is told from his point of view. One overall theme to his story is that there was a reason (or often, an excuse) behind every terrible thing he had ever done. This is one of his defining traits throughout the series. It's been many years, but one specific example that has stuck with me: In a later story ( _Tale of the Body Thief_ ), Lestat swaps bodies with a mortal man and one of his first acts in this body is to rape the woman who was helping him. He feels soooo guilty and torn up over what he's done... but just as always, blames human weakness or hormones or something. It's never about his own lack of character or empathy.
So, yeah. This is the dude people are saying would never beat his beloved Louis nearly to death? Maybe they don't understand the concept of the *unreliable narrator.* Or maybe they're just very young and don't want a touch of realism to mess with their idealized romantic fantasy in that way. 🤷
As an authentic Young Person (21 year old) who has inherited her mother's 20-something Anne Rice phase (my mom went to book signings in costume, yet doesn't think she's ever been in a fandom, bless her), I wholeheartedly agree with this analysis. Is Lestat TOXIC AS ALL HELL? Yes. Does that stop me from enjoying watching their dynamic in written and tv form? No, because it's so beautifully well-done. As someone who's only read the first two novels (I don't have time to read the third, coursework is a nightmare when you're an English major with a classics minor and two jobs), I totally recommend the series. It feels authentic to that unqiuely lush feeling Anne Rice gives us but also brings something new to the table, and the actors are absolutely phenomenal. You might not like it if you're a purist, but if you're up for some incredibly well-done creative liberties, give it a spin if you can.
💯 Also the series leans heavily in to concept of unreliable narration, pretty explicitly. If that goes over people's heads I'm not sure what more the writers could do
@@isabellp.5730 Oh, I'm sure I would enjoy the crap out of the show if I watched, just based on the tiny scraps I've seen. I'm intrigued by the update of Louis from brooding plantation owner (aka SLAVER, let's be real) to a Black Creole man, particularly in light of the current upswing in racism and fascism. But the sad fact is, I just can't watch commercial (with ads) programming anymore. Even when I was recording shows and using the DVR to forward through the ads, there were too many interruptions, the DVR would refuse to stop at the place I wanted, and it wasn't enjoyable overall.
Has 2b the 2nd reason
Authentic kinda middle-aged person here. (Internet old, I guess.) I loved Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles when I was an early 90's high-school gothling. The writing was gorgeous, full of such lush, lovely imagery, and homoerotic relationships where nobody else accessible was really writing them. But being young didn't mean that I was unaware that Louis and Lestat's relationship was amazingly unhealthy, and that Lestat was a first class asshole. A beautiful, narcissistic, fascinating asshole. I think her writing him to become a rock star was a brilliant move in that direction, too - think of who was the biggest band around at that time. Guns n' Roses. Lestat was Axl Rose. Charismatic nightmares who were terrible people but could hold an audience in their hand. I also think of Mick Jagger a lot here. Even my beloved and much lamented Freddie Mercury and David Bowie, to a degree. I think that a lot of young people don't understand that talent and virtue don't always go hand in hand, and sometimes, for better or worse, a brilliant disaster is more compelling than a perfect person whose work is as uncomplicated as they are.
Girl, I'm glad you put Namor in the thumbnail because that man has me in a chokehold!! I need a full length movie about him and Talokan ASAP.
I am also DOWN BAD for the Fish Man 😂
It's not our fault. Look at the man.
I clicked on this for namor to be apart of the discussion and he didn't come up at all. :(
@@biankah Clickbait?! Lol
He's such a good and complex character because in so many ways, he's right, but he's such a complex character and the design of Talokan was so interesting.
"They just don't give a fuck. They don't have respectability politics, they can be free. And sometimes I think I'm just drawn to the freedom of what it means to be bad; to be free of guilt" omg, I think you hit the nail on the head of why sometimes villains appeal to me. As someone who lives with guilt all my life, I really feel this...
Also, I love how you managed to articulate when Draco Malfoy got hot XD
Its so true tho!!!! That movie where they changed up his hair, I was like "wait a min-"
I had no idea that people identify with villains for that reason! Religion and respectability politics suck!
@@darlalathan6143 Amen to that! I think I only made that connection only very recently when I found myself feeling disillusioned by the church and christian culture in general. Also, I think its funny that the thing I hate about the church (Purity culture, quickly judging and moralising ppl without taking time to understand them) can also be found in online spaces... I guess its just human nature
"Landing facedown in a wading pool of discourse" is such an evocative line, goddamn.
When there was that A:TLA netflix resurgence, tumblr was full of people shipping Zuko and Sokka as these carefree bros in love while people were also saying you shouldn't ship Zuko and Katara because he's her oppressor. Like... is it that Sokka's humour makes them forget he also had his family and culture attacked? Or do we only expect women to be vigilant in assessing a lover's moral standing?
personally i think it was more because we got to see that betrayal and hatred and oppression portrayed more intimately on screen. part of the reason people ship zutara is because they had such complex interactions on screen whereas with sokka and zuko it was a lot more straightforward. less intimacy also means less to be mad at
I don't understand the hate Zutara gets but if I had to guess why people judge it more than Zuko/Sokka, that's probably because Sokka forgave Zuko earlier. Katara held onto her hatred against Zuko for much longer. But Katara forgave him too so idk why some think it's toxic anymore
I fell off OUaT after season 1, and I never saw the writers' comments about Regina and the Huntsman. AND WOW. How did they NOT know that they were writing non-consent??? There are red flags, and then there are RED FLAGS. 🚩🚩🚩
Also YEAAAAAAH Tamora Pierce. Trisana Chandler has never done anything wrong in her life.
I think they knew, they just chose to double down. It was never revealed on the show that Regina murdered the Huntsman, not just because it was pathetically petty, but because it would have revealed what she'd done to him for decades.
And then they kept doing that. Zelena and Gothel also did that.
@@katherinealvarez9216 I think OUAT could’ve been truly amazing show, but it suffered the same fate as most abc dramas: convoluted plots and series that drag on way longer than they should
@@WiiMan1133 yup. And then they gave me a Latina Cinderella and wasted her.
I feel like there's a whole ass video about how the HP fandom made something good out of a terrible text, and the thing that most of them are nostalgic for is not even the original text, but the fanon version of it.
Idk if it's the fanon they're nostalgic for, or just the HP series they viewed in their own heads. In their minds, they could view the characters how they want, change the problematic aspects that they want, and ship whom they want. They didn't have to interact with other fans, but the version they saw in their own minds stayed with them.
As someone who enjoys Reylo (mostly in terms of AU fanfics), I completely agree that it side lined 33:58 every other character, especially Finn. None of those other characters were explored enough in canon and often don’t get as much attention in fan circles (not always, I have read some great Finnrey, romantic and more sibling based in some Reylo fanfics, Finn/Poe, Finn/Rose, and Finn/Poe/Rose that do such a great job in expanding their characterizations that the sequel movies -especially that trash fire of a third movie- failed to do).
The Lego Star Wars Specials have done more service to Finn (in confirming that he is Force sensitive and is training with Rey) than the big budget movies and those are often waved from being canon and instead seen as canon adjacent.
Yeah, in terms of fanfiction, I read all the Reylo. But for the movies? I wanted Finn, Rey and Poe to live their best lives. And now that the movies are over, I'm reading AU fics about that.
@@katherinealvarez9216Finn, Rose, and Poe (and in turn their actors) were done so dirty! Thank goodness for the loads of fanfic in existence
@@JuriAmari thank God that all the actors have moved on to other projects and doing well
My personal enemies-to-lovers taste wants Reylo for the fanfics, but for the movies, I really felt that Rey and Finn would have been the best pairing. The actors had good chemistry and they were just cute. But we all know why that was never going to happen.
@@Blueeyesthewarrior I watched the movies out of order and watched The Last Jedi before The Force Awakens (and had never been into Star Wars before this point), and in The Last Jedi, I really felt the pull between Kylo Ren and Rey, but then when I watched the Force Awakens, I saw a TON of chemistry between Rey and Finn (still Rey and Kylo Ren in the interrogation scene….I mean it’s like an Enemy-to-Lovers fanfic writer used all the tropes in that scene). So I am absolutely not surprised that people saw Finn/Rey and thought they were going to be end game, or at least have more to their relationship. It’s not my preferred pairing, but they are adorable together.
Ugh…knowing that those movies could have been done so much better still irks me.
The phantom, "its kinda problematic, right? He kidnaps her?" Exhaustion is so real. There's a tumblr post about someone's dad coming along to their academic conference, and being at a panel talking about lovecraft racism, and the dad, wanting to contribute, is like, oh! That one where his wife is actually not human, but an ape! And the whole room going quiet because that's been Established, is kinda the vibe I get from that? I'll see if I can find the post
i.redd.it/67dujzzmege41.jpg this post
I mean that's what the story was REALLY about, yes. But that's why we don't talk about Arthur Jermyn.
@@CT_Phipps yeah! It's the Big Thing, the Known Thing, and talking about it tends to draw focus when everyone there, save the dad and some undergrads, want to talk about other less prominent concerns and examples within the texts
It's like how we make jokes about not asking Lovecraft for help naming your cat.
@@neuralmute what does that mean?? I gotta know
I felt so seen with this video. I am a black bisexual leftist and one of my absolute favorite characters on television is Homelander.
I feel no shame about it. He’s an exceptionally acted, well-written, hilarious, downright evil character. He clearly represents white patriarchal imperialism and terror and I absolutely love him for that. He is deeply fascinating to me, even though he would eliminate me simply for existing.
As a Stormfront simp, I get you.
@@Vickyeverythingelsewastaken just as a heads up, Stormfront has the same name as an infamous real-world neo-nazi forum. It took me a second to realize what you were talking about. No disrespect, I would want someone to let me know if I might accidently say something that could be misinterpreted this catastrophically.
@@epis8613 with love, but no shit, that's pretty much exactly where the character gets the name lol. She's a literal Nazi super hero from The Boys. Given that they're talking about that series, I can imagine people can figure out the context
Homelander is a great villain.
I mean this sincerely and kindly: this was a surprise for me to read! I am genuinely curious and not trying to argue or anything like that (I can't believe how many modifiers I need to add to make sure I don't seem like typical internet commenter lmao). Is there a line, for you, where someone liking this character would become uncomfortable to you or seem bad? I'm asking because my gut reaction is like, finding the character interesting totally makes sense, even finding him funny. But "liking" him sort of sets up assumptions in my mind about a person, assumptions that clearly wouldn't be right in your situation.
I'm having a hard time being precise with what I'm thinking or asking, apologies for being a bit messy.
I wanted so badly for you to discuss Namor specifically because I think fandom doesn't quite know what to do (surprsingly) with a villain that has an actual sympathetic background and reason for doing what he does. (It's also not lost on me that he's gotten critiqued harsher and more quickly than some yt villains when they were first introduced😒).
So to then ship him with Shuri (proudly, I know it's "toxic" but idc), they have an interesting dynamic and actually have things in common being a Black woman and Indigenous man that have gone through similar things with their respective nations. Its compelling enough that watching the breakdown actually hurt lol. It's what I like about the Black Panther movies though, that it's antagonists (I personally don't consider them the villains, that would be yt supremacy and the western countries, especially in BP:WF) are people we can empathize with.
Also Namor and Shuri are hot and that "keep me instead" and "let's burn the world together" lines were absolutely proposals idc idc 🫣
I think one of the things that helps Namor is that he’s an antagonist, not a villain. In much of the comics, he’s more of an anti-hero with responsibilities he’s expected to uphold, which can put him against other heroes. He’s been on teams with Captain America and Ironman. His stories in the past have been centered around attaining and keeping his throne from his generals, like Attila, and a few outside forces, like Doctor Doom.
I’m willing to bet you know all this, so I apologize if I’m simply ‘splaining at you, but hopefully this adds some more context for people.
I also think there is something to be said about being part of a marginalized group who has been historically seen and portrayed in media in a villanous way, and therefore being able to relate to some specific villanous archetypes
I've recently seen a video where the creator claimed that villain fuckers and are one step away from people who are attracted to real life killers (such as Ted Bundy) and that their enjoyment of villains reflects badly on their morals. It's great seeing people who are actually literate when it comes to media and how people interact with art.
sounds like lily orchard
Lol, no. (I'm answering the quoted creator).
@@privatehere3324 Yes, that’s precisely who I’m talking about. Her takes are fascinating to me
As a certifiable villain AND monster fucker who has 0 interest in true crime because it's genuinely too upsetting to me, that is pretty wild.
I think this stance is why some try to claim the villain they like is definitely not a villain, oh no. Because they're afraid or ashamed to admit they like the villain. But they should embrace it. After all, it's just fictional
This video takes me back to the time my very religious grandparents took my cousins and I to see Princess & the Frog. After the movie ended I went on about how I love Dr. Facilier and his scenes, and my grandpa low key scolded me because “you’re not supposed to like the villain”. 6 year old me was so thrown off by that😂
I think it’s kinda weird how some people conflate finding a bad guy intriguing and interesting, with completely agreeing with their actions. But it’s understandable depending on the character. I will ALWAYS look at Homelander stans with a glaring side eye
lol a few comments down from yours is someone saying Homelander is their most favorite character 💀 (I know nothing of the show other than reaction memes from twitter and that Homelander is apparently awful fwiw)
@@emilyb.8219 oh noooo, that’s hilarious lmao. I don’t want to spoil it bc it’s a great show, but just know he falls in love with a Nazi woman trying to start a fourth reich lol. Whenever someone says they like homelander im like “okay but which parts though”💀
Are you contradicting yourself?
@@afrosamourai400 yes lmao. I am not exempt from hypocrisy or contradictions
@@afrosamourai400 also I love Afro Samurai, so you’re a real one 🙌🏽
Love this video! Also would like to add that Lestat arguably coerced Louis into becoming a vampire with him, given that he mentally torments him and kills two people in front of Louis, which then begs the question of whether or not Louis would have been safely able to say no. + He is cruel to Claudia as a way of taking out his resentment against Louis.
I'll just say, because I wish I could explain villainy as great as you can, that HOUSE OF THE DRAGON, at the very least, felt like a welcome return to the moral ambiguity of GRR Martin's books, as opposed to "Danny be bad, now, because we want to stop this show as soon as possible!"
thaaank you. dany is *so* morally ambiguous in the books, which is exactly why she had such a jarring heel face turn in the final season. the showrunners couldn't understand that ambiguity and so wrote her as an Empowered Girlboss™. then when they got GRRM's outline for the ending? they scrambled for something, landed on "targaryen madness", and had tyrion turn to the camera and say "oh, that was.... actually foreshadowing all along!". yes i will die mad about the ending lol
@@hinasakukimi Danny is a typical revolutionary leader. She is all about setting things right with her power and bringing down the abusive hierarchy but has no clue how to actually rule. And like all militant revolutionaries, they eventually become tyrants because all they know how to do is use force to get their way and they are stuck in black and white thinking.
The show actually never made her out to be a perfect hero at all. The flaws were always there the entire time, it was just that the enemies she had were so terrible that she seemed like a saint. The only problem was that they completely rushed the last two seasons and so the turn looked really jarring but the all the elements were there, they just weren't fleshed out enough for it to palatable for an audience that already missed so much of what they intended to be seen.
Danny was always driven by a sense of entitlement and a desire to be loved as a savior. She made a bunch of mistakes that would have been deadly if she didn't have dragons to brute force her way to victory. A power no one else had. So when it came to tackling westeroes, she again failed at diplomacy and strategy. So she used her dragons to solve the problem once again.
The show actually did a good job at showing this over and over again, the problem was just that it felt unsatisfying because of the terrible writing towards the end when they ran out of source material and chose to rush the ending to be done with it.
@@EF-wy3di This is such a strange comment lol. 'Revolutionary leaders are bad!!1! All revolutionaries become tyrants because force!!' - what? Do you think people get their rights through peaceful protest? Do you think any meaningful change has ever been achieved without people being forceful?
Dany is fighting to end slavery. Despite the fact that in the books this isn't going well (because the people in power keep fighting her on this), GRRM has never, not once, framed her freeing the slaves as some kind of morally ambiguous thing that she has done out of a 'desire' to be loved as a saviour. It unambiguously makes her a hero. Her not 100% being an amazing Queen is because a) she's ending an institution that's been in place for centuries and b) she's 15 years old. Her dragons have been useless little baby lizards for 90% of the books, and when they get big enough to start being of use to her, she ends up locking two of them away out of altruism.
Goddamn the show writers did a number on her character, wtf
Hah... Yeah. I mean there was always potential for Dany to be bad, but the lack of character development there did her (and the show) a major disservice.
@@EF-wy3di umm no. like you said dany is a revolutionary but from the books so far nothing has indicated that shes a tyrant or has potential to be one. in fact she has had to compromise her integrity and morals to be diplomatic with the mereenese nobles even marrying one of them to ensure peace. she locks up her dragons when she hears one of them may have murdered a child. in fact in the books dany barely even uses her dragons, only in the siege of astapor. in her other sieges she uses her mind.
the only true violence we’ve seen dany exhibit is in her burning of the mereenese slavers and if you genuinely think this was an evil thing to do you’re stupid. burning slavers is always based.
now does dany have the potential to use violence going forward? definitely im pretty sure shes coming with a dothraki army to put the mereenese in their place. but this just feels like a logical conclusion. shes tried to be diplomatic and its failed. they are a inherently violent people that are a threat to the society of freedmen shes trying to found in mereen. they gotta go.
YO! I wished Carmilla would bite me. I based an entire D&D campaign around her character.
lmao this being the first comment here is damn funny
I was in a LARP one time where there was a Vampire named Camilla and she was very similar (this was before the show, but looking back the characters still ended up super similar).
Based parts of my VtM character on her :3
ngl I started calling her Vampire Hillary Clinton when I watched the first two seasons
@@Radhaun Carmilla from Castlevania is based on the eponymous (and lesbian coded) vampire from the gothic novel that was published before Dracula. Their castle in Styria is from the book as well. So that's likely where that LARP character came from
Honestly i love villains. Sometimes its the confidence and their fashion sense, or the complexity and nuance of their character, or the camp diva factor, or that theyre the most entertaining, or that i love to make fun of them or that i love to hate them or multiple of the above a the same time. Irredeemable, redeemable, I just think theyre so fun.
Sometimes its deep, sometimes its not deep.
Brah! The Evil Queen/Regina has the BEST fashion on that show!
@@aangitano 100%!! I was not a fan of that show at all but i stayed for Regina and her amazing outfits.
Addendum: I would define "nice" as inoffensive, polite, and considerate, "kind" as compassionate, gentle, and considerate, and "good" as just, equitable, ultimately constructive, and the right thing to do. I would define "evil" as destructive, unjust, merciless, deceptive, self-serving, unloving, and often vindictive.
I like this...
This is seriously SO helpful, thank you.
I’ve always enjoyed the story that illustrates the difference between niceness and kindness
Imagine you broke down at the side of the road. Big steam and/or smoke cloud, engine no go, but no other immediate danger.
One person who drives past slows down to have a brief conversation. They express deep sympathy and offer words of encouragement and affirmation, but immediately leave. Someone else pulls up and gets out of their car, asks what’s up. They immediately start berating you, badmouthing your driving technique, maintenance practice and car choice, but offer to get stuck in repairing your car for hours and actually get your car running, refusing payment.
The first person is nice, but not kind, and the second person is very much not nice, but they are kind.
I enjoy it because it’s true, but I kind of hate it because it shows up one of my many personal flaws quite starkly and unapologetically.
@@TAP7a Pretty good ideas here. However, I wouldn't describe the second person as kind--helpful, yes, but quite resentful of the fact that they need to help you in the first place. That second person is not being gentle, which was one of my definitions of kindness.
@@MelanieNLee THIS. We've forgotten that treating people with gentleness and respect while helping them is almost as necessary as helping them in the first place. The person berating me while trying to fix my car? I'd tell them to go f themselves and call me a tow if they *really* wanted to help.
Lestat is basically if Oscar Wilde was a vampire so it's hard not to like him b/c he's fabulous, but also Oscar Wilde was kind of a d*ckhead so a lot of people are understandably turned away from Lestat's horrible, selfish behavior. It's not exactly hard to see how he's an awful person too. But he's just... so.... fabulous. Even in the Cruise performance
I think people turning away from lestat is the reaction you need to have because Lestat is a mirror to what's inside of us. The pure selfishness, the toxic ego and pure ambition to get what we want. Also the control we want to wield over others. Lestat is a mirror on us at our worst. I love the character for that.
I'd say Lord Byron personally
@@BooksRebound crap yea I forgot him
@@BooksReboundlord Byron in leather pants
And even in the books/series Lestat is the only vampire who loves being a vampire, he goes through many lovers and becomes many Messiahs and never learns his lesson. Lestat is just pure narcissism, the “what if a human really did love immortality but pretended he didn’t” in a single wave of chaos-bad. It takes the devil himself to teach Lestat what suffering really is. Those who fell for the love entanglement between Lestat and Louis- don’t feel bad, that’s the whole point of Lestat, to remind us what makes humans, human and to remind us what true love really is. Louis’ love for his daughter, the selfless love, was what Anne Rice wanted us to feel in her novels.
“Gaston was right. Thinking is annoying. Take it back, god.” you’re brilliant and I will now be quoting this until the end of time 😄
I would strongly disagree with Magneto being better as a villain though. Especially with his more recent stuff. Mags is best as a hero. His villain days are an interesting exploration of his mental health, and the nature of heroism though
He never should have been made a villain.
I’m intrigued that the upcoming X-Men animated series will have him as a hero from the start.
Magneto is a villain but he's at his best when working together with Charles and the Xmen.
If you like messy characters and relationships, accepting that you like them in part /because/ they're bad and that that doesn't have to change your real life values and behavior, is part of becoming an emotionally mature adult. The more you trust yourself, the more you will be willing to listen to criticism and grow.
Agreed1 And also, if you're willing to engage mentally with characters and subject matter that make you uncomfortable (e.g. villainous behavior) vs. "running away" by not engaging , that is sign of being mentally and emotionally mature. You can like an aspect of a person/character but not want to be with them in real life. It's nuance.
I think a big thing that people struggle with is the concept that a person who has done horrible things can genuinely change and want to be a better person without meaning they are forgiven or that everything they did is now erased. I think that's why so many people struggle with characters like Endeavor.
Listen. Listen listen listen. War criminal + ultimate capitalist girlboss, it works
(Also GIRL, with you on Trunks)
I think for ME, the problematic ship thing rests on three pillars: am I connecting with the narrative of the relationship, does the text know what it’s doing, AND in the end, when they get together, is one character in a situation of being safe at the pleasure of the other’s desire to indulge them - personally as well, my favourite “I could change them” narrative is when one character isn’t trying to impress the other, but when one character goes “huh, you’re like…right actually, I think I’ve got some wrongheaded ideas about the world” (there’s a Chinese IP called 1000 Autumns whose show version seems to be going hard in this direction in a really compelling way!)
I love Lestat. He's so fucking problematic and god help me if I ever meet someone like him in real life bc I'm pretty sure I would have no defense.
It's funny how the trope is named "Draco in leather pants, because as someone who is really into Our Flag Means Death, Izzy Hands is a character that centers a lot of discourse, and I think his leather pants really played into the how popular his character became. Even the actor who portrays him says the fans love how he looks in leather.
i still won’t get over PLL for de-villainising Allison DiLaurentis in the worst way possible. like she literally became the most boring character when she turned into a regular.
I’m still bitter tbh. Sasha was soooo good at playing Allison as an absolute menace and I found that version of her so compelling.
Honestly thanks so much for making this video! I think that the internet really lacks the nuance you have and everyone should have because of the purity politics you mentioned. I feel like there are debates like this in every fandom, and I wish they could take a chill pill and let people enjoy characters/shows WHILE ALSO acknowledging they problems they have and they affect society.
Like a huge example in anime fandom that I have got takes about is about whether it’s ok to like Hisoka from Hunter x Hunter. Tbh, I have no idea what Togashi was going for when he wrote Hisoka the way he did. He’s my favorite character in Hunter x Hunter, but he’s also a very open p*do and a very homo/transphobic caracatured villain due to his looks, his over flamboyance, and his predatory lust after everyone he wants to fight (he gets off to fighting strong opponents). Tbh, I surprised by how many people like him because despite being a disgusting person, he’s one of the most popular anime villains of all time.
I feel like the issues of fandom morality you brought up here DEFINITELY apples here cuz he’s such a polarizing character. On one side, there’s insecure people who stan/defend him to the point that they deny he’s a p*do at all (which is obviously messed up cuz it’s wrong to be an apologist for any reason), and on the other side there are people who hate him with all their guts (which is completely understandable) but also think that ANYONE who likes him is automatically a p*do, an apologist, or should at least be put on a watchlist.
As a transmasc pan person, I feel like I shouldn’t embrace him as a character I love and wish I was more like (not in the creepy FBI open up way, but in the gender envy free spirited campy way) because of what he represents. Especially with all the queer = groomer rhetoric and anti trans U.S. laws (will definitely affect me as someone who unfortunately lives in Texas), I feel like I’m betraying my community because of envying the queerness of a character who happens to be everything that queer people are accused of being. It’s even harder cuz of my OCD internalizing everything people on the internet say about liking the character. It can be triggering at times.
All in all, I feel that liking villains (even the worst of the worst) is complex for me and everyone else, and we should allow people to like these kinds of characters and also have discussions about how they are problematic. I wish people were more open to discussion and nuance instead of assigning morality and buzzword accusations a character that is problematic. We need to listen to marginalized voices (I’m yt so POC fans being talked down to by yt ones when they are trying to explain how a character/show perpetuates racist ideas adds a whole other layer to this) and understand how fiction affects reality, but also realize that marginalized groups are not a monolith.
Sorry for the rant guys. I just feel like this video hits home for me and is really important for everyone to hear.
Hisoka encapsulates that vibe of the villain who knows he's bad and is having a great time. Like, he's just fun. And I think his character only works as well as it does in the context of the HxH world, which does include a variety of other queer/trans characters and tells their stories in a subtle but well-intentioned way. It would be a different story if he were the token queer in a more stereotypically macho shonen series, is what I'm saying... In HxH world though, the good guys are creeped out by Hisoka for his creep factors but NOT for his queerness, which establishes that he is a villain who happens to be queer, rather than his queerness being seen as a villainous trait. I think that's what really allows me to enjoy his character.
I’m absolutely a Hisoka hater but what I hate even more is seeing people give Hisoka fans a hard time, just for enjoying a villain who is entertaining and iconic (and also really effectively scary when he needs to be!) Especially within a majority-queer fandom space, it sucks seeing queer people be lectured about how thinking this character is fun automatically means you’re homophobic, even when they’re able to talk about him in as thoughtful and nuanced a way as you are. (On the other side of the coin, I’ve had convos some of the Hisoka-is-a-p3do-deniers and yeesh 😬 always a deeply frustrating and triggering experience!)
Tbh knowing how queer Hunter x Hunter is (like you could make an argument for almost every character being LGBT in one way or another i.e. Gon and Killuas queercoded relationship, Kurapika being transmasc, Illumi being gender noncomforming (and his and Hisokas combined gayness), Pouf being… Pouf, etc, etc), Hisoka doesn’t stick out as much.
I guess I see lots of cishet fans denying the queerness of other Hunter x Hunter characters (even Alluka like that’s just transphobic), but Hisokas the only one where they don’t try to deny everything because his desires are laid out in the most obvious ways possible.
Tbh I can see how queercoded villains are harmful, but at the same time, I don’t think we should get rid of them entirely. We should have both gay heroes and villains because then we just have gay people, not archetypes.
@@babingusss Yes, exactly. The gay is everywhere! Anyone who doesn't see the queerness in HxH doesn't understand the series.
A lot of it is not explicitly labeled, but the possibility is more often than not intentional. For example, we may never know for sure if Kurapika is trans or just an androgynous looking cis guy, but either way he *deals with* misgendering. The same for Senritsu, and honestly that's part of why their friendship is so wholesome. Solidarity, we love to see it.
I watched the 2011 anime and tbh wasn't a big fan. But damn did Hisoka quickly become the only part I really loved in that anime. It made me sad to watch an arc where he didn't participate (I'm looking at you, chimera ants). He just screams well written villain. He's awful but just helpful enough in plot that he's useful to keep around.
felt this on a core level. what is interesting is that time and again i find it very difficult to explain to non-fandom (cough normie) friends what is appealing about villains. i think it has to do with a lack of engagement with the ideas in a piece of work. when you're in fandom, you tend to be more focused on theme/characterization/catharsis. most people however are passive consumers to media, and as such cling on to the simplest conception of characters. in other words, it takes thinking beyond the entertainment, and more about the conversation a text is trying to engage the reader in
"When you've done the work, it can just be so grating to be treated like you haven't done it." Literally sums up my feelings about this topic whole-cloth. It's always assumed in bad faith that you *haven't* done the work, as if you're ignorant and unaware (and often as if you're being willfully ignorant!) and therefore a bad person because of a refusal to acknowledge the "bad". No, I know the difference between good and bad. I will willingly pick apart something I enjoy and point out what's wrong or bad about it--that doesn't mean I can't also still enjoy it.
Something else I find important is the fact that fiction is the safest place to explore themes, topics, and characters that are dangerous or unsafe, to be like "what IF the hot evil guy also fell in love with the main character, despite all his crimes??" and not have to worry about the risks. The writer is in control of the narrative and can therefore create and facilitate the most perfect outcome in order to avoid all the potential pitfalls that you can't control IRL. Yes, there are still elements to be wary of (such as romanticizing genuinely horrible things), but if the narrative is derisive towards those bad things, there's really no way to (if someone has learned media literacy, which based on the internet is uh... well) take that the wrong way. You can have a bad guy do bad things and still come out with a situation that doesn't go completely south.
I won't say this isn't a complicated and nuanced topic, but I swear some people try to make it more convoluted somehow by trying to simplify it into camps of "good" or "bad".
I think a big part of the criticism of liking villains is people pushing back against others who are woobifying and excusing both villains and problematic protagonists, like what happened with Kylo Ren and Edward Cullen.
Yeah I agree. While I certainly think there's some ambiguity, I have seen people insist canonically abusive characters, ones the creators said were supposed to be abusive, aren't abusive.
it’s a romantic version of what fanboys do with rick from rick and morty; they ignore every single thing in canon, espoused by the writers, and said directly by the character that this is a bad and pitiful dude not to be admired. just because that character does or says some stuff you enjoy or relate to doesn’t mean you can just ignore the vast majority of fucked up shit.
@@sarahbearbabygirlthe comparison to Rick is absolutely top notch - this is a topic that feels at high risk of becoming a sexist pit of bashing femme-coded fan activities, whereas it's really much more universally applicable
Yeah. Like. Accept their shittiness. It's ok lol
I think both attitudes are born from an inability to "like bad things". Like one group feel as if their souls are damned for liking the devil so they act in denial, and the other sees that denial and pretend it's all there is to liking the devil. If people could just drill into their heads that it's ok to like bad things as long as you're critical of it, we would have less discourse about all this.
As someone who also grew up Catholic, I can relate to your teenage self. Nuanced storytelling took secondary status to a story I could easily identify as morally GOOD or BAD. I'm so thankful for the stories that challenged me and asked me to understand the world as more complicated than I realized.
I don't think the world is complicated..things are either good or bad...people too.
My dad didn't grow up Catholic, but he has a lot of those ideas of either something fits with his idea of good, or not, and those are very strict, but also somewhat confusing as a kid. I've always liked when things make you think, and look into it more. I like being able to see the good and the bad in the grey areas, and not labelling anything with a sword on the cover as evil without looking into what it's about (that's why my dad wouldn't let me get one of the Fire Emblem games, which I later got anyway, and found a lot of good in it, and some really great characters).
Disney did John Boyega a gross disservice with the Star Wars sequels.
Finn had so much potential in that first movie. And then they sidelined him and made him comic relief to make room for Reylo in the second movie. And then in the third movie it honestly feels like he's only there due to contractual obligations.
and him being a former storm trooper was so interesting. It would've been so cool to go into that backstory more but nope...he and Poe get to be glorified extras.
Did we watch the same movie??? Because I remember Finn getting an entire character arc that culminated in him looking Phasma dead in the eye after she called him scum and correcting her to "_rebel_ scum". One of the most iconic and epic moments in the entire film.
TLJ added _so much_ to both Finn's and Poe's characters; more than Jar Jar Abrams could ever be arsed to before _and_ after. Rian Johnson (bless his porg-shaped soul) made Finn come into himself and made Poe a leader. Abrams made Poe into an ex drug-dealer and Finn into a puppy running after Rey.
@@TheSleepyowlet
Did we watch the same movie? TLJ shafted Finn so hard and pushed Rey/lo.
@@l.n.3372 Well, I suppose you _could_ look at it this way if you value shipping over actual character development and a solid place in a narrative?
I also don't expect canon material to reflect my shipping preferences. That's what fanfic is for. But you do you, I guess...
@TheSleepyowlet
I don't expect canon to reflect my shipping preferences either. I had none for TFA. But I DID expect canon (TFA and the entire original trilogy) to be fully respected by TLJ, which it wasn't. Luke was disrespected. Finn and Poe were disrespected. Kylo was woobiefied by making Luke willing to kill a child!! Rey was pushed so hard towards Kylo after hating him in TFA. TLJ was a crappy mess by Rian cuz he didn't care about continuity. He just wanted to subverting expectations and shock people. Congratulations Rian. You shocked us with a shit movie TLJ.
a lot of people see shipping as "i like them together and i think their relationship is good" when it can be "i like together, i think seeing them be awful to each other is funny."
"Redemption we-said-it" is a term that I did not realize I needed until just now. Thank you!
honestly, I think a really interesting reflection of this is in pro wrestling (at least, in the old days) - if you are a 'good enough' bad guy or heel, if you can make the fans hate you so much for so long, eventually the fans will grow to respect you and you can end up organically becoming a good guy or babyface. Fritz Von Erich was a hated n*zi heel for years and years before becoming so beloved in his home territory of Dallas that he was able to introduce his sons as babyface wrestlers and the crowds loved and adored the boys. The Von Erich's are even beloved in Israel, weirdly enough!
Randy Orton is another example. I absolutely hated him early on but loved him in the end
You're so real for putting Lestat on the thumbnail, I love him but he did so many manipulative choices to damage Louis and then pulled him back to him acting in such a selfish, unethical way
Speaking of Death Note, I was super into the fandom from ages like 12-15 and was obsessed with L/Ryuzaki. Who may technically speaking be the "good guy" because he's going against the mass murderer, but, he also, you know, chained himself to a teenage boy, held a woman prisoner in horrific conditions to try getting a confession from her, installed surveillance cameras all over a family's house to try catching the person he'd railroaded into being Kira (even if he was correct), and he was basically a cop. He's still my problematic fave.
The way he's written is just so compelling though! Haha... I think it also helps that he was introduced from the beginning as someone clearly neurodivergent, so his questionable actions don't come across as malicious as some other cop characters
Light deliberately killed innocent and L did bad things but was not evil..i always hated light since he killed innocent.
YES. All of this.
"And he was basically a cop." Sorry lol that just felt like "arson, murder, and Jay walking" haha
I honestly think you hit the nail on the head, there's something intoxicating about this toxic personality being yours. There's this feeling of "they would destroy everything for me, including me." It's a level of intensity a lot of people encounter and can't fully rationalize when it strikes because it's easy to view it from the outside but while you're inside... it's heady and dangerous and that's exciting in it's own way. Doesn't make it good or bad, it's just emotions going to war with themselves inside of you. We're also used to this almost social disinterest in us as people because it's so easy to connect now that people don't value it the same way they used to. A lot of these "bad guys" see pieces of you others ignore or pretend you'll grow out of. I think I'm just rambling but I loved this video.
As an occasional lover of Yandere characters, I agree with your comment except for the "including me" part. It always becomes a nightmare for me if such a character shows that they would hurt their loved ones/the characters I project onto.
In my case, a desire to be loved intensely stems from feeling that others didn't show me enough love growing up and wanting to correct that, preferably all at once out of a lack of patience.
I love enemies to lovers tropes when done right because they go through the "meet me halfway" phase. Which is basically, they both have to get off their high horses or the pre conceived notions of one another to meet each other halfway, and thats where the love begins. Plus they always end up being the most interesting romance in any show
I've been having discussions about this with my friends and partner for the last few years! Especially surrounding Kylo Ren, I think fans of him really wanted to see him redeemed because they didn't want to be seen as bad people for liking him. I'm not a Kylo stan whatsoever, but I personally think it would have been so much more interesting for the sequel trilogy if he wasn't redeemed. He's interesting as a villain, and that's okay! Leave it be!
I think Chainsaw Man will really challenge people as the anime goes on; I'm all caught up on the manga and I think what makes it so compelling is that none of the characters are especially "good", but you root for them anyway! I really love Makima as a villain and saw someone comment "why do people like Makima? Isn't she like really bad?" And it's like... yeah bud! I like her because she's The Worst and her motives are so interesting!
TL;DR, it's okay to like a villain and for them to STAY BAD in the narrative.
I definitely agree about Kylo Ren. I love him as a villain--a person who is evil but has many admirable traits, showing that these good things don't make a person good--and think that he would work much better as the bad guy who chose not to be redeemed.
No i didn't want to see kylo ren redeemed cause i wanted him to become a good guy; i wanted to see his pain😈, the sadness of loosing rey, the anger, the trauma, the guilt, that's what i wanted😈
In terms of writing stories in fandom, the villains provide a lot more to work with. Conflict is baked in, especially when they're in opposition with another character who *believes* they have the moral high ground. I've written some compelling fics where the villain makes the better point, but is also on their own trajectory of growth and accountability
I think Vegeta and Bulma make sense when you consider Bulma just broke up with her first boyfriend. She hooks up with the hottest single guy close to her, and they are not together until Vegeta realizes he loves Trunks. He does not care about her before that. She was a hook up. After that he wants to be a dad, and part of that is being with Bulma. I would definitely enjoy seeing the relationship grow rather than how the time skip just has them fully together, but I think it's important to reconcile that Trunks is basically the reason his parents were anything but a one night stand
I think they also make a little sense in that they are both ambitious in their own way. Vegeta's throne is no more, but he still feels that itch for a legacy, a continuation of his royal line. Seeing what the half-saiyans are capable of and learning that future Trunks is his son softens him up. I'm almost certain that he also sees it as a point of pride that even if Goku is always beating him at a lot of things, being a dad is not one of them.
Bulma is an inventor who is basically running her own tech company at that point. Got no real idea on why she went with Vegeta, but I can see why Vegeta went with her because she shares his sort of pride and ambition. Maybe it's simply the fact he wasn't so intimidated by her brains that drew her to him.
Bulma for her part ditched school as a teenager to go ride around carrying a gun looking for magical artifacts to wish for a boyfriend. Her boyfriend ended up being Yamcha the bandit. She definitely strikes me as a rich girl delinquent with a thing for bad boys. By Z though she seems like she is happy being an inventer with an eye candy partner. So I do kind of love their dynamic even though it just went unexplained in the show for so long. Probably BECAUSE it was so we got to fill in the gaps lol
Being a dad has nothing to do with being with the mother..vegeta wanted to be with her he won't just not admit it...Goku never wanted to be with chi chi..
@@afrosamourai400 for sure being a parent has no real tie to being in a relationship with the kid's other parents
Vegeta's pride in his son, his desire to be a dad, by necessity put him in contact with bulma more frequently and/or intimately than he might have been otherwise
Being a dad didn't mean he had to be with bulma, it gave him the opportunity to be with bulma
Vegeta at least liked Bulma he's very much a tsundere character but I feel the love of his family is more an extention of his pride and ego in the very beginning stages.
You know, it's surprising how many redeemed villains don't struggle with their past actions and the harm they've done. Imagine a post-redemption Zuko having nightmares about all the people he's indirectly or directly killed, for example. Not only would this be more woke or whatever, it's also an untapped gold mine of dramatic storytelling potential.
I mean comics Zuko is terrified of doing the wrong thing and becoming a tyrant and becoming his father…the very thing he wanted in his B1 days
This is what I wanted kylo ren to suffer through but 😞
I don't think Zuko was the right example here because he literally did.... Like he had actual nightmares about Aang which is the only person he's implied to have hurt,,, I get your point and it's a good one but Zuko wasn't the right choice of example here.
This is the one thing the former villains in Angel got right.
Loved the video! This conversation reminds me of the Buffy & Spike ship and the divide that happened with fans after the S.A. attempt in season 6.
I watched that show in college many years after it aired. What was the discourse for fans as it was airing?
Billy Hargrove is a textbook example of draco in leather pants- I've grown to hate that character, not because he wasn't compelling in canon, but because his fans will turn themselves inside out to justify his racism and abuse towards others. The amount of fics I've seen where they make the little kids who are scared of him into the bad guys somehow to woobify him is ridiculous. I actually really respect the few Billy fans who are just like 'I like him because he's hot and deranged' like okay, I can understand that.
This video was really healing. As someone who is in fandom, I always feel like I am between people who are either hyper critical and puritanical and people who view even the mildest criticism on media as a personal attack.
I really appreciate your content around these topics, I’m working towards unlearning some of the knee-jerk responses I’ve had in the past towards certain ships or content and these really well thought out and nuanced approaches has really helped.
Watching you talk about this took me back to me being in the Glee fandom and being a Karofsky stan. The "tired of constantly explaining why you like this problematic character" resonated with me.
Bruh. Same. It was the last time I liked that trope but it stuck with me
"Satan was the first Draco in leather pants". What a hook! Also, love the Powerline tee.
One lesson I’ve learn about navigating discourse is this: If someone listens to my point then I listen to theirs. That may seem obvious but i’ve seen practiced so rarely in fandom discourse. Usually the approach it to make a statement to completely shut down all criticism and debate and don’t get me wrong that can be fun and cathartic but it doesn’t really lead to anything constructive.
Example:
I love Kylo. I think he’s an interesting, great, tragic character. And by just looking at the films (I have read a lot of extended media) but just looking at the films I still take away a lot of information, nuance and subtext about him (just my opinion). I don’t excuse any of his choices/actions but I empathize with him the way we all do with our fav baddies. But here’s the thing. If I explain to someone why I love that character and pull out all my analysis and subtext readings THEN they have every right to say “I disagree and here’s why…” and I need to listen to them the same way they listened to me.
I have had the pleasure of having a few balanced debates like this in person to person interactions and online too. I TOTALLY get why people don’t like Kylo. And I appreciate hearing their opinions the same why I appreciate them listening to mine.
The “he kidnaps her” is the phantom equivalent of “person at party too excited to tell you John Lennon hit his wife”
I thank you for this genius assertion.
Or "beauty and the beast is about Stockholm syndrome"
@@applecoreeater Or "Phantom is just Beauty and the Beast fanfic."
Except one is a fantasy and the other is a reality. People worship too many batterers. Smh.
John Lennon had a girlfriend he was also abusive to whose name was Pickles. Thelma Pickles. I think about that a lot. I hope she's doing ok out there man
50:20 I really appreciate you saying this as someone who was abused as a child, I feel really strongly about characters like Endeavor who have done things that remind me of things that I myself have experienced, so if someone were to try to argue that with me it would be an extremely emotionally taxing experience. So just you acknowledging people like me and not invalidating our experiences means a lot to me
Watching two trully horrible people fall in love and get worse bc of it? For me there's nothing better
Glad to see someone talking about the discussions surrounding IWTV. It was a really fun and difficult and fascinating couple of weeks of dissection and complicated feelings that I rarely have seen in fandom. I love the show and am very excited to see where they take the rest of the story!
Vegeta is a abusive father mostly from my perspective. He seems to withhold love from his son often. And eventually just beats him up. I love the character but he is a piece of shit in my opinion. again I still love this character.
I think in the beginning he definitely is a terrible father but he's gotten a whole lot better. He took Trunks out to do the things he enjoys because he made a promise.
@@noreehix5714- Yeah, but isn't that just a decent thing to do? You expect every father to take their kid out to the park as a reward for their accomplishments. It's not an example of him being a good father, just him doing the very basics of fatherhood. I think it's understandable that Vegeta wouldn't be good at raising children, considering he was raised to be a weapon (not man), and the father figures he did have were war criminals as well (Nappa and King Vegeta.)
That said, I haven't watched DBZ past the Cell Saga, so I'm not getting the full picture here. I really do love Vegeta as a character, and I think him being a bad dad and husband is part of what makes him compelling. It makes seeing him be a good (if grumpy) dad from time to time feel very triumphant. You can tell I've read an ungodly amount of Bulgeta fics. (I like that Bulma's name comes first in their ship name, since she's the breadwinner and Veggie is just her arm candy.)
Catradora deserves so much more grace than it gets
i knew none of those things about the interview with a vampire adaptation, please hold while i go watch all the episodes now
We'll be here.
Ok i watched it now, I've done the homework and am prepared
Oh my gods what are your thoughts??? what did you think?? i freaking love the books and the series
@@isabellp.5730 I loved the series! I think they did a great job
I was just playing Mass Effect Amdromeda and I was going to romance Jaal but then Reyes Vidal shows up. Despite all the red flags and terrible actions I still romanced him.I had to question myself after that.
I was torn between Reyes and human cinnamon roll Liam. The duality of man.
As a Reylo, I totally agree with that bit about how the problem was the ST pushing characters like Finn and Rose down in favor of centralizing Kylo/Ben and Rey. Like, one of my long term friends I made in Reylo fandom who is a black woman (which, I specifically sought out fans of color and such to follow in December 2015/January 2016 bc I recognized that there are people who will be into my ship for shitty reasons, so I worked to head that off early) and she will happily go into rants about Finn’s treatment in between loving Reylo still (and also lament with me how little Finnlo content we get on our tiny canoe of a ship). Like, its 100% possible to have criticism of one’s favorite media. It’s just difficult to do when so much criticism in fandom is “okay but this is bad and you should feel bad for liking it.” It’s exhausting.
So true! Your comments about judgement, learning to accept that sometimes you will be made to feel bad about what you like and learning to accept it and not take it personally or take the L, is so true. Fandom circles sometimes become huuuuge hugboxes where no one is allowed to feel uncomfortable/bad/judged and so important conversations are avoided. Or it's the opposite and it's a free-for all with no care for triggers. It should be respected that sometimes we want escapism, and not having our likes dissected in public online spaces, but when we do want to discuss the nuances and discourse, then we should be able to, people who don't want to join the conversation can feel free to avoid, keep scrolling, remove themselves, and it's our responsibility to tag things for people.
But yes! Villains are soooo often more interesting, more compelling, more relatable, and better written are the main reasons people love them. Them being hot too? That's icing on the cake.
I knew villains could be compelling when I had an interest in Eric the Phantom, Severus Snape, Heathcliff, Dracula, Shego, and others.
As soon as you said, "I love Lex Luthor, him and Darkseid ooh" I had to hit the like button. Immediately.
This is actually pretty helpful to me as someone who doesn't write problematic fanfiction, but I do write pretty dark stories with morally neutral characters.
brain short circuiting every time the thumbnail and title abruptly change
Lol sorry! The algorithm bullied me!
I'm aro/ace, so I feel like I'm learning the Deep Secrets of other people, haha.
Thanks for the video, as always.
"Twitter is not all discourse" THANK YOU!!! People really treat it like the end all be all of discourse or general opinion when at the end of the day it's like a tiny group of very passionate people that usually don't represent general the public but people act like they do 😭 sorry for the rant it was just nice to hear you say that bc that same thought has been driving me nuts for awhile
I feel zero guilt that Lestat is my ultimate blorbo. He’s done absolutely everything wrong, ever, and quite frankly I can’t wait for him to fuck up some more.🤷🏽♀️
The bit about good faith arguments really reminded me of a former friend I used to have, and why I refuse to engage in complicated discussions on social media lol
While watching this I was reminded of how in the early parts of The Cruel Prince I was like “lmao how can this guy ever be redeemed” and by the end I was like “OH I SEE, THEYRE BOTH HORRIBLE AND I WANT THEM TO MAKE EACH OTHER SUFFER FOR MY AMUSEMENT”
I don't usually comment, but I just had to say that I really appreciate it whenever you touch on fanfiction discourse! I love my own fair share of problematic ships, but I've always had a hard time truly defining why. Your videos and just my evolving thoughts on things have clarified things to honestly make me feel less guilty while still recognizing that villains are villains. Just because I find a certain dynamic interesting doesn't mean I endorse a real-life version of it in any way. (As for one of my favourite prob pairings, it HAS to be Hannigram. Will Graham and Hannibal Lecter combined are a terrifying/literally killer duo who in real life are incredibly terrible for each other, but how they interact with each other and bring out the best and worst in each other is just so mesmerizing to watch.)
HOLY SHIT this is the first time ive ever seen someone acknowledge the lack of consent between regina and the hunter in OUAT, it's been such a huge issue for me ever since i rewatched it (...right after having watched jessica jones. you can see how itd be upsetting) and i felt kind of crazy never seeing anyone saying anything about it, so thank you for that
See, I was/still am a Hannigram (or murderhusbands for the cultured) shipper. And let me tell you, I reveled in the depravity. I knew that this was the antithesis of a healthy, functional relationship but it was fun to explore because I knew that fiction was a safer place to explore dark themes like therapist abuse and violence and other monstrosities. It was precisely because I knew that it was so toxic that made it so interesting to enjoy. Liking objectively terrible characters (Hannibal's a cannibal for god's sake) is fine insofar as you can understand that these are not people to be emulated or respected.
if villain bad why hot? I am a strong believer in this as when I formed my first villain crush, was on the Darkling and whew the way since then I am more than willing to see what the bad guy brings to the table. and that is why fanfiction does it for me because those writers make things happen that I believe was a plausible character route. loved the video, happy to be a new subscriber!
This is such a terrific video and really hits on all of the nuance that this discussion requires. My most problematic villain fave of recent years is Jin Guangyao from MDZS- one of the most fascinating and compelling villains I’ve ever seen, and given an extremely tragic/sympathetic history as someone abused by his family and marginalized because of his birth/class status… but also someone who commits truly heinous and horrifying acts like facilitating his dad being r4ped to death and killing his own infant son. There’s so much catharsis watching him get revenge for the ways he was wronged, but also genuine horror as you learn about his worst crimes, pathos when you see the tenderness he shared with his best friend, etc - not to mention his actor in the drama adaptation gives a delightfully over-the-top, scene-chewing, iconic performance. He’s a terrific character and I found him impossible not to love- there’s just so much to unpack! HOWEVER. The back-and-forth between people who love this character and hate this character is exhausting, and has gotten reactionary to the point where there are Jin Guangyao fans actively contesting the definitions of r4pe and eugenics, and Jin Guangyao haters saying that if you like this character or are interested in any of his relationships you’re a homophobic abuse apologist who hates all the other characters and shouldn’t be in the fandom (the number of times i saw “JGY fans don’t interact, i fucking hate you, have you tried being normal” on completely unrelated art, gifsets, etc in 2020-2021 was kind of astonishing). I had perfectly lovely Tumblr mutuals who got put on fandom watchlist google docs just for being a fan of this guy. It sounds dramatic but hearing that I (as a survivor of child abuse) was an abuse supporter/apologist, was morally bankrupt, was “not normal,” over and over from people in the same fandom spaces as me, had a horrible impact on my mental health and set me back years of working through my own abuse in therapy. That’s kind of an extreme response in terms of fandom discourse making you feel guilty, but my point is I can totally see where the impulse to get defensive about the characters you like comes from when it’s your own character being called into question. But then there are people literally saying this character did nothing wrong and it’s like…. I kind of get where the level of hate comes from too. Also, way to erase what makes him such an interesting villain in the first place! It’s such an unhealthy fandom cycle and it’s hard to grow out of when you’re on any kind of social media, truly!(Sorry about the long rant but MDZS fans, iykyk)
I love Jiang Cheng who is more of an ambiguous character than a villain, and I love him BECAUSE of the ambiguity, the flaws, the backstory, the difficult and bad decisions he made, it's what makes him human to me. But I've seen people say that he's just as bad or worse than Xue Yang, which is a take lol. Talk about erasing Xue Yang's villainy too! Jin Guanyao is such an interesting villain with a great backstory. His father to me is really the worst. A privileged hyprocrite who abuses his power. What I like about MDZS/The Untamed (I've only watched the show) is the nuance, the story seems like it's built to generate these really interesting debates about good and evil, politics, family dynamics, breaking the mold... while still committing to its clear message and making us feel what the characters feel, even the bad guys.:) It's a shame that with such a deep material, some people just want to see things in black and white (although sometimes the reason why we are triggered by certain characters is very personal).
Great video as always. I absolutely loved MCU's version of Namor 💙
"You can only respond in good faith is if you were approached in good faith" exactly. Thank you.
"...because we live in this reactionary space..."
QUEEN. Yes. If this doesn't sum up how our current cultural space doesn't have time for nuance OR the social literacy to see there's a big gap between Zutara shipping and stanning the fash, I don't know what does.
This video is absolutely excellent and I genuinely agree. It worries me a lot how I see people ascribing ‘morality’ to the fiction they enjoy. As if enjoying /creating art that has problematic elements makes the creator heinous. Genuinely thank you so much Princess for making this because sometimes I feel insane seeing some of these takes online and it scares me for media literacy and critical analysis. I feel so seen with this video omg ❤
I LOVE pretty much everything you said in the video! Nuance is SEVERELY lacking in our society these days (particularly with the echo chamber that social media can create), and most people don't seem to understand that a FICTIONAL CHARACTER can be problematic (or have problematic tendencies), but still be appreciated in certain ways... Particularly when we can experience that character's journey and/or come to some sort of resolution WITH them.... Idk if I worded that in the best way, but hopefully what I said made sense....
I also love the new AMC adaptation of the Vampire Chronicles, and find myself quite drawn to Louie, as well as being SUPER into this version of Lestat... Lmfao 🤷
I highly recommend Last Week Tonight's episode about carbon offsets
Part of the double-edged sword of internet anonymity and large, mostly-anonymous fan communities is that it can be hard to tell who's operating on what level of discourse. If I know you, I know whether we're already operating in the same framework. Anonymity strips away a lot of the signifiers that might help temper or target these debates more constructively, along with empowering us to phrase things in ways we would never dare to speak out loud to another person's face. I'm going to discuss things very differently with a teenager than a grown person with a lit degree, but I can't know who's who in the RUclips comments. It gets tiring when discussion spaces collectively assume by default that you're uninformed about The Problems and must be informed of them 10,000x over in every discussion, but I think it ends up baked into fandom culture in part because assuming the inverse will still end in having to explain/discuss The Problems anyway, because there will always be people who joined the discussion behind the curve. I don't think there's a solution to it in large anonymous spaces--you've mostly got to find small spaces and/or people you actually know to have good discussions.
i can enjoy a well-written redemption arc but i feel like among all the attempts they are actually few and far between. i would much rather see someone struggle with their own actions, continue on as they have and maybe even become worse, because they still have the conviction to carry on with their goals even if it sidles them with guilt, pain and misery-- i prefer this sm more than a hackjob of turning them into a reformed friend of the hero.
30:07 "people are so concerned with being seen as racist, problematic," that they don't really care if it's actually what they are being.
I was so sure that would be how the sentence was gonna end! and the actual sentence you went for is better, definitely more empathetic and understanding to people who have that fear. but damn if it doesn't have a grain of truth. so often people just don't wanna hear they might be doing something bad bc they feel like it make them look bad. like, being told your actions are bad doesn't make you look bad, ignoring that your actions are bad does.
This was a really interesting deep dive. When talking about existing in a leftist comunity where most understand you know the "problematic stuff". I was thinking about some situations I find myself in. Ireally enjoy twilight but somehow I end up having to introduce it with all the disclaimers even with people that know I've been a hardcore feminist for years. It also intersects with being trans and being in danger of "loosing" my woman card for liking something problematic, many cis women like as well. Somehow you need to perform that you are a woman but that you also are pure and free of sexist sin, as if women cant participate in patriarchy or enjoy things that could be problematic, to fight the idea that you perpetuate gender and sexism by "pretending to be a woman" (how terfs express it), and that shows you never really had the woman card in their eyes it was always a choice as they see you.