BEST Alternate Magic System for Dungeons & Dragons - Arcane Casting: World of Aetaltis DnD, D&D
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- Опубликовано: 26 сен 2024
- Getting tired of the standard spellcasting system in 5th edition Dungeons & Dragons? I found the arcane spellcasting system in the World of Aetaltis Player's Handbook and I love the system. I am thinking about adopting it as my go to arcane casting system for 5th edition. Let's check it out.
#dnd #dnd5e #tabletoprpg
I like the old Ars Magika system. There's no mana or spells slots. It's instead based on rolling against your various arcane skills. So for example to create a fireball you just take your Create skill + Fire skill + modifiers (material components, hand gestures, verbal, etc.) + die roll against the spell's difficulty. To make vines entangle someone you'd do the same with your Control and Plant skills. The difficulties are based on how much it bends reality rather then how mechanically useful it is. That just for spells you've learned however. The real fun of it is you can make up any spells you can imagine on the fly. It just makes the target difficulty much higher then for known spells.
I really want to look into that system as well. There are a lot of spell casting systems outside of the DnD framework. I am especially interested in free-form magic systems.
Ars Magica is a cool game! I also quite enjoy Mage the Awakening for it's magic system. In that game all magic effects are placed under 10 "spheres of influence" with each 5 levels of competence. It's a dice pool system, so your competence level + your power stat (called Gnosis) determine how many dice you get for your magic. A spell has a basic effect and you can buy increases (More targets, bigger area of effect, specific effects called tilts, etc.) by spending those dice. You can also "supercharge" the increases by spending reach. Spending to much reach will increase the chance of backlash happening.
You can use spell components (called Yantra) like tools, chanting, magic glyphs or whatever to gain bonus dice to roll/spend or to reduce the backlash chance. After spending the dice you needed to get the effect you want you roll the remaining pool of dice. You need 1 success to get the spell to go off.
The system has a bit of a learning curve, but once you've used it for a while it's a fairly easy, flexible and fun freeform magic system! As long as your Mage has the skill (AKA dice) and knowledge (AKA levels in one of those "spheres of influence) you can create any effect you like. While doing so you might realise you don't have enough dice and will have to settle for a lesser effect or maybe you'll need to figure out an extra Yantra so you'll have the extra dice to be able to pull off the spell.
I think that system works for ars magica where it doesn't work for D&D because in that system they don't shy away from saying "mages are just more powerful".
If you don't spend major resources for every spell, and you can cast big effects, it follows that you can just keep casting big effects. So either you have to limit power to the point where playing a caster feels less wonderous, or you have to make them spend a resource.
Ars Magica does this with the fatigue system which I think is good, but it'd require a lot of work in a game that wants to have martials balanced against casters.
@@EHeathRobinson I read the last book this year and I don't think I can use anything different on spells ever again. Very satisfying. Players loved it. But not a very kind system overall. Could use some new World of Darkness tweaks to improve.
@@EHeathRobinsonYou should look at SORCERY in Runequest III through to Runequest 6/Mythras.
In that system, you use POWER to fuel the spell but you can "manipulate" the spell using manipulation skills for Range, Duration, Area of Effect, and Power Level of the spell. In RQ III, these were individual skills that you would roll under to achieve the effect. In addition, the greater the effect, the more POWER you would need. This made RITUALS (to allow a group of casters to combine POW), and magical items that granted POW (like staffs and POW Storage Crystal's) very important for casting big magics.
ooh this is pretty much exactly how I want spells to work. Its pretty intuitive and interesting. It checks out for how people typically think of how magic works, and a bunch of other reasons that I had through this video that Ive forgotten already.
Now i gotta get my co-DM to get on board with it
Thanks for talking about the spell system! We had so much fun using this in playtest, I really can't wait for more people to get their hands on it. I also really like the ability to tap essence wells and ley lines to power spells too. All sorts of cool stories can be built around that.
Thanks again for your detailed review!
You are very welcome Marc! Thank you for making the system (and the world).
I hadn't heard of this before. I absolutely LOVE it. I would love to play in a game with this system, and if I ever run one it'll probably be with this system. It adds flexibility, risk, and excitement...very cool.
*edit - I would alter the critical failure list to have the most severe consequences like death without chance of resurrection or switching arms and legs only be applicable if the critical failure occurred during an overcast. The player can get bad critical fail results normally, but they only risk the worst if they willingly cast a risky spell they know they shouldn't. *
Cool! Glad you like it! I’ll have to go back and check the chart, but I think most of those severe consequences can only be reached if you were having bonuses applied to your critical failure roll on the chart. And the main way you get those bonuses is if you were overcasting. So it might be that’s already kind of worked into the system. You may not be able to roll those most severe consequences unless you’ve done something that really causes it.
@@EHeathRobinson Ah, thats smart, I didnt catch that. Thanks for telling us about this Heath. If you ever try running or playing it, can you update us with how it goes?
@@CypherDND I will. Actually, I would love to do some livestreams next year where we play different one-shot games to get to know more systems (and have fun playing different types of characters). If that happens, Aetaltis would defiantly be on the list to try.
I had been using a homemade system I came up with a lot like this except the main penalty for casting above your spell level was taking on levels of exhaustion of 1 level per level above your safe limit. And if they did overcast I had them roll a d20 and if they got a natural 20 the exhaustion was halved and if they rolled a 1 the exhaustion was doubled.
Cool! Seems like there are a number of people who are on to something like this.
@@EHeathRobinson yeah in fiction there are plenty of times when someone goes beyond what they are capable of in the heat of the moment and wanted my players to have the same opportunity for that narrative power. Level 5 wizard wants to cast Wish? Sure… it will kill them to do it but they might be in a situation where that narrative sacrifice is warranted.
In a similar vein I also allow anyone to take an Action Surge at the cost of a level of Exhaustion.
@@jonathanwood5955 I agree. I like the potential. It does sound like that thing that happens in stories at the right narrative moments. Should be something that could potentially happen in RPGs as well.
@@EHeathRobinson I have an idea of how I can implement this idea in the game I'm making. My first thought was that even pushing past your limits should have limits. Afterall a child trying to push past their limits while moving something will have a very different effect compared to a body builder pushing themselves past their limit to push it
I came up with a similar system based more on Zelda hud of red green and blue you would have a pool of focus points stamina points and Spirit points. Focus for magic spells stamina for Marshall combo moves and spirit for kind of a combination of the two the cost would be sanity a lot like stamina but affecting intelligence taking exhaustion And sacrificing hit points
Been working on my own system and this is almost exactly what I've been writing down. Just another reminder that almost nothing is original!
Yup. I'm going to be using this Spell Casting System.
This sounds a LOT like the powers system in savage worlds
In it, a character has power points which they use to activate their different powers, and to modify them in various ways (making attacks go through armor, summoning multiple zombies in one turn, giving armor and weapons to your summons, etc.) and for maintaining the effects of the powers, and same as here, you recover powerpoints every hour you're not doing straining activity, and you can "short" your powers to make them cheaper but harder to cast
I don't like that essence just regenerates. Breaking away from the rest system breaks the balance and flow of the game.
If you have essence points, then it creates a nice symmetry between casters and martials.
Martials spend hitpoints in battle to be effective, casters spend essence points in battle to be effective.
Make essence points regenerate during short rests by spending hit dice. Casters barely use hit dice as it is, and this gives them a use, and if you balance the costs of spells well then it means casters and martials lose steam at the same rate.
I also created a point essence system back in the 90's. After 20 years away from RPG I'm back and doing a non level version of magic. Essence points are now used differently to add extra power to spells instead of level effects.
Dungeon Masters Guide pg 288, Variant: Spell Points...
Spell Points - because sometimes you have to cast Shield 5 times in a dungeon crawl and you need to hold your level 2 slots for Misty Step!
Only issue is you only get 1 6th level spell per day.
@@sykunethe great thing about rules is you can change em or ignore them
Thank you. I have been looking for a spell point magic system (mana) for quite a while. I think it fits my perspective of a magic system much better. It reminds me of some great MMRPG video games like EQ and EQII. I also love Elder Scrolls online! I believe it is the spiritual successor to Everquest which I loved since 1998. Since that time, I discovered Castles and Crusades which does have a spell point system. I think I can homebrew a magic system from inspiration from both. Thanks for the video to inform me of what is out there!
Vancian magic needs to burn in a dumpster...it "works" but it's such a boring waste of letters. This sounds interesting, I've wanted some kind of a spell point system for a while. I would actually almost like to lump all casting into the same pool, there is no "divine magic" and clerics are really warlocks to well-established patrons. This would "un-break" bards being able to learn spells from that area.
I personally liked the at-will, encounter, daily format of 4e for spells. For 5e, they could have done something like you can cast x amount of encounter spells and x amount of daily spells, based arbitrarily on your level aaaaand that's it. So a lvl 1 Wizard could start with 3 at-will (cantrips) spells, and can cast 2 encounter spells and 1 daily spell.
Heroes of Might & Magic 1 had vancian magic, and it created more depth and planning than the later shared magic points one, where people spammed the same spell like no tomorrow, leading to dragon + armageddon combo, where unlimited armageddon spell cast defeats everything, but the dragons, which are immune to magic. Ingredient and colored mana based magic is similar to vancian one, but a bit more tedious: you have to count what amount of each mana/ingredient the spell will consume, instead of just having a spell card.
This looks like a really solid alternative. No more "crunchy" than other D&D mechanics. I recently found a completely different kind of magic system I really like that I haven't seen any videos on. It's from 2019, The Eight Elements: A Freeform Magic System, by Aleksandar Petrovic and True Mask Games. The Elements have opposites, and can combine with other Elements for different effects. And the mechanics are like nothing I'm familiar with. Plus it's really cheap for a pdf. Worth a look imo. I can't make a video about it rn or I would.
My favorite alternatives are these. 1. Palladium System (any game, they have a bunch, but all use the same rules). 2. Dungeons and Delvers Dice Pool. It is easy and fixes some flaws I dislike about D&D with spiraling hit points, and armor is different. 3. Pocket Fantasy. It is super rules lite, but with the character class expansion you have 14 classes to pick from, but yet it will fit in under ten pages. AND IT IS FREE. 4. Mini-Six Bare Bones. Another free game. This one is based on the old D6 Star Wars rules, but simplified a bit to make it easier to play a game that was already easy. And yes, it does come with a setting for Star Wars, but it is a generic system so you can also play fantasy, cops and robbers, or steampunk horror (all of those settings are in the back of the book).
ALL of them use magic that is different than D&D. Palladium used to use spells per day, but now uses magic energy points. Dungeons and Delvers uses skill checks to do magic, but you never run out of magic. Pocket Fantasy uses a fixed list of 6 combat spells and a wizards cast 2 combat spells per every fight, but out of combat it is a skill check to cast anything you want, 2 per game session (there are also tokens you can turn in to get more spells). Because there is always another fight, a wizard is never "out" of magic. In Mini-Six spells/powers are a skill check, and a failure makes your skill go down for a few hours.
Remarkable, I made more or less the same system independently, I even call mana essence. 😲 Mine is a bit better though; it has options to gain mana for permanently sacrificing HP or ability points, or even to sacrifice oneself in a heroic fashion. for the more darkly inclined, you can sacrifice ather living beings too...
Hi! I’m sorry for coming to the party late. It’s mentioned at 2:55 that spell points are used instead of spell slots that he prefers. Curious if you would try to use spells slots with this system and if so, how would you approach it. Seems that homebrewing is the way to go these days and as I like this system, I too find myself also ok with spell slots. It’s the rest of the Vancian model that I’m not keen on. Thanks everyone!!
Hey Rafael! Good to see you and welcome back! I don’t think I would try to combine spell slots with this system, but there is probably a variation where it works!
Copy that!! Thanks!!
My dudes, spell points are an optional rule listed in the 5E DMG. Might sounds shocking, but don't be, almost no one reads the DMG.
All those changes to the arcane magic system in this setting book is native in Rolemaster for all types of magic.
Was going to say the same thing. RMC has always been a better magic system.
This reminds me a lot of the d20/d20modern supplement from Green Ronin called True Sorcery. It's really cool to see some of the same concepts be brought to 5e.
This sounds similar to how Classic Fantasy/Mythras runs magic. It's a great system.
I like it, I'm not a fan of the essence points. Mainly because you have to really keep track of time and recovery of the points.
I never saw the memorization in D&D as a wizard forgetting a spell, just that he has used up his spell that was prepared using the magical energy he had reserved for the said spell. Like packing a lunch and making specific sandwiches you have only that which you had prepared, and have to return home (memorize a different spell) to get more to make others. Whereas a sorcerer can just mix and match things on the fly, and just brings all the ingredients and makes what he needs at the moment he needs it. Using this magical system would really eliminate the sorcerer in D&D or change it to make it less useful in other ways. But if used for wizards only i would like this, I would then tie sorcerer magic more to their bloodlines and limit it in options therein. Giving them more active innate powers and fewer spells, say a dragon sorcerer could manifest wings and fly, or beath fire, or even make his skin harder and resistant to some elements of his bloodline origin. As they level these could be come more permanent on the character not requiring spell energy to do. But you would have to overhaul the entire sorcerer class to do this and i have not the will or energy to do this. Warlock is fine as it.
As always, I appreciate your enthusiasm on all things RP. While there seem to be quite a few nice ideas in the Aetaltis magic system, I wonder if non-casters will fare even more poorly when adapting it to 5e. Halfling Luck and the Lucky feat will elevate wizards to godlike power, right from level 1, in comparison to those muggles, who merely have some skill to poke you with a pointy stick. There is a reason why the deus-ex-machina classes (and magic in general) need a well defined framework of what they can NOT do, IMO. I like versatile magic systems as much as the next guy, but a world with magic capabilities like these is mainly about arcane power (much like in MtG), where individuals without magic are reduced to mere peons in the machinations of almost omnipotent archmages.
This is actually pretty close to my own homebrew magic system I came up with years ago, thought mine is more OSR oriented and meant for use with Basic Fantasy.
Love it sm bUt personally would add smth to do with the target of a spell into its DC? Like adding their charisma modifier to the DC to repel a charm person spell or similar
This is savage worlds magic system down to the recovery per hour. They have edges to allow you to recover power points faster as well. I only point that out so if you wanted to see how they did things you can read that rule book as well.
Makes magic in D&D seem a lot more interesting. I would personally dump Divine magic if I'd use this system. Basically turn all the Divine spells into Glyph magic as well. It'll have some impact on classes, but it basically turns the Wizard back into the old Magic-user class. You want to be a healer or a druid type character? Focus your Magic-user on spells that reflect that. That way you can bring the down the absurd amount of different classes with all sort of nonsense powers in D&D 5e. If you want to be a more classic Cleric style character you can multiclass with Fighter. The essence and spell levels seem to be based on hit dice instead of character level, so that will basically get you there and allow you to customise the amount of attention your "Cleric" has put into it's martial training? Want to be a "Cleric" from a sneaky God, go for Rogue instead!
2:04 spell point alternative rules exist.
So this is arcane magic, but what about Divine magic? How would that work here?
now im wondering how to add this to the character sheet on dnd beyond for the mention of having spell point over
slots
critical success and failure is a mechanic used in pathfinder 2e so I learned
The root of the issue is the class/level based system, I'd argue.
I’d argue that too. But people have difficult times balancing systems that aren’t class/level based…just like how real life isn’t balanced at all.
If people are allowed to advance their skills and abilities outside of a rigid class structure then they might make overpowered choices, or worse, underpowered and suboptimal choices! We can’t have non-optimized characters!
So wizards are now spells know casters with the whole spell book as their spells known, at the cost of each spell being a skill check? Also those limitations nuke most of the utility magics, including most of divination and conjunction
if you choose sorcerer how does it work do you still use a book or what?
This really should have been the standard all along.
The best spell systems are in there own game systems like DCC and D100 Dungeon. I for so many reasons prefer
D100 Dungeon.
DCC is on the list of games to review on the Morning Grind Livestream. I have been meaning to get into that game for a long time. I don’t know anything about D100 Dungeon. I’ll add it to the list to check out and potentially review.
Not too far from the mana system in the dmg; I am kind of thinking critting on a spell increases the disparity between spell casters and martial characters in d&d. Getting a crit with an ax basically gives you an extra attack, +d8, but critting with a fireball gives you an extra 4d6 because it halfs the cost.
The spell slot system is made to keep pc's from going nova every fight, and being able to cast when you run out of mana seems like a restriction that is less impactful than losing the fight. It is a bit of a non-choice as green eyes for 2d10 minutes is not as bad as dying; odds are still in favor of the dare devil.
Using the spell book to give yourself advantage is good flavor, but how does that interact with action economy? Are there any disadvantages to this; ie can people target your book if it is out? Not enough info on that to make a call on that one; might be in the book?
Disadvantage for casting next to a foe makes touch spells that do damage pretty bad. I would say some spells are made to be cast close by their nature. It also does not make sense to me if you can cast within range of an archer without penalty who is making the same number of attacks as a fighter with a sword but the fighter imposes penalties. Seems inconsistent.
I would think overcasting should have more direct harm on the caster in a consistent way; CoC for instance you start spending hp when you run out of mp to cast a spell. Maybe rolling a number of d6's that equal to the max points in an over cast and you lose that much hp?
I agree that having green eyes for 2d10 minutes is something you would take over dying. Those are the kinds of effects that could have something narrative impact, but that I would prefer to have mechanical impacts. What is that cost you are paying? Should be more than something superficial that may be able to be largely ignored.
I would guess people could target your book. It puts it at risk in a combat environment. Also, if you are having to hold out your book and turn its pages and such, you aren't holding other wands or weapons. There could be more that you could do with it, but that might be enough at some tables.
I remember that in some edition of D&D casting a combat touch spell next to a foe did not trigger Attacks of Opportunity because the spell made the caster "armed" for its purpose. You could do something similar with this.
Every point you've made is a good one, and I really hope that when you play the system you'll discover the balance is there. We actually put a TON of thought into making sure this didn't break balance, and we even went so far as to play an extended game with side-by-side arcane casters of both standard and Aetaltan in the same adventure. In the end they were equally effective in general game effect, but the Aetaltan caster felt more in control of their casting and could use their casting more creatively.
@@EHeathRobinson I am judging it based on what I see presented over the sections you covered, not based on how I would balance it as a gm because that intersects my own personality and play style in it. Trying to be objective and fair; they did not interject a condition for touching range spells, so I can only comment on what I saw/heard. Generally speaking, I can home brew any system into what will work for my group, but that does not say anything about the base system for comparison.
I do love risk versus reward magic casting systems. Dcc and icrpg did it better with rules as written, though. Heck, I will put the Eldritch Cock supplement for Lamentations of the Flame Princess as a better alternative to spell slots due to better writing. Though I would not recommend you review it because it is edgy and the maker is a bit unsavory for racial issues as well as poor treatment of creatives.
@@rynowatcher Completely fair.
@@MarcTassin I am trying to be objective to what I see/hear as included to a product. I do not play any game completely RAW because no one but me knows my group, so I make changes to accommodate that.
The review did make me curious enough about the setting and source rule book that I will most likely make a purchase. Do not take my criticisms as negative impression for the over all product. It has actually intrigued me enough to make a purchase; part of my criticisms might be resolved by a full reading of the rules.
You need new dice of doublespeak with number and letter symbols, party size equals dice used, 6 players 6 dice used... so I roll them, but you can load the dice as it were as you pick the level at which you're aiming for, I got 3 C's and 2 Bs 1 A, then it becomes a multiplier the number and the letter expressed is at the spell strength, 3 of the same is expressed so it becomes level 9 at C level = damage done than what is added up on 6 dice which is say 30 + damage done = applied hit. Then you can load tubes of dice, which are then occupying 5 slots of destiny, like bullets, as you are also trying to manage, affordability, and the cost factors. Or I can pick the pair of B's shown etc. It would be called navigation of destiny.
Soul-less
Coming from outside DnD, Vancian magic feels super lame. Isn't spellcasting supposed to feel cool and powerful? Aren't spellcasters supposed to be the kind of characters that study magic for decades (or are geniuses) and are able to cast countless grand magics off the top of their head? What is this obsession with gritty realism that DnD entrenches itself with?
On top of that, even with casters being bogged down by grittiness, martials get bogged down even further and most DnD players don't think martials should get powers. Like c'mon, martials should be get to be cool too.
No. The rules are there for a reason. Without some. Buffer a mage is just too powerful. At low level they are super lame. At high level they are oped...it's the game
@@ronniejdio9411 Most people don't get to the really high levels, so it'll just be lame period. But also martials are lame no matter the level.
Gygax was into gritty realism. That’s why D&D is like that.
I still think that Palladium has the best Magic and Psionic systems!