Hey all! I know this video is a bit more simply edited than my usual stuff, but I hope you enjoy regardless! I also apologize for the background footage NOT being me running around hitting people with Stock Melees. Would you believe that recording footage of running at people with a bunch of mostly useless stock weapons isn't very easy or fun? Regardless, enjoy the video, and I'll see y'all soon.
you call it simple, i call it classic. literally this video feels like it couldve come out in 2015 in the best way. its like drinking water after nothing but soda and gatorade. its refreshing
Even if the Third Degree didn't exist, the fire ax would still easily take the bottom spot. The main use of most stock melee weapons is a last resort when your ammo runs out, but Pyro's specialty as a close-range combatant means that they regularly have access to more ammo. The Third Degree is a direct upgrade, but it's still one of the worst melee options for Pyro. The only reason that isn't contradictory is that the stock ax doesn't have a place in the Pyro's toolset to begin with. It seems like it was included not to actually be used but to simply prevent Pyro from bugging out on command by spending all of their ammo from their actual weapons and having nothing left to auto-equip.
The fire axe wasn’t *totally* useless on launch. Flamethrowers dealt a LOT less damage, so a melee hit followed by flames could be a better ambush back when the FOV was so small. Most of your kills were from afterburn anyway. Course back then Pyro was just a spychecker in terms of actual use so I concede I’m arguing semantics at most
@@Skullhawk13especially with how inconsistent the fire particles were on launch Like half the time someone could be engulfed in flames and not be set on fire and other times Someone is nowhere near the fire and they get set on fire
I love the breakdown Fire Axe, Fists, Bat- theres not any reason you should ever really pull this out Wrench, Kukri, Bonesaw, Shovel- good decent option Knife and Bottle- every other melee massively changes how the class is played
I feel like that for the bottle and shovel they have special uses Since they are great if you are too low to take any splash damage from your own explosives
Pyro's melee isn't the only one with a straight upgrade. The holy mackerel can detect dead ringing spies over the stock bat, and the Boston Basher's downside isn't really a downside. It has utility for bleed jumping and helping medics build uber, plus if you use it as a melee weapon the downside only happens when you miss. Just wanted to put that out there
Boston Basher needs many skill not to bleed to death and Holy Mackerel's upgrade isn't really upgrade, since if you'll ever kill a death ringing spy with such a fast attacking melee, than you'll probably will know that he's using ringer
Being one of the two stock melee taunt kill weapons, and the tauntkill with the longest range (except technically the scorchshot taunts flare on a low health enemy, but thats outside of the official oneshot range anyways), should give it a better ranking than 8th at least. It also doesnt suffer like the knive with its two weak hits before the actual kill.
At first I was confused when you said it was only the Third Degree that was a pay to win item that is a direct upgrade to stick, as my brain did indeed think "But what about the Solemn vow? It's the same premise where it functions as stock with an additional upside." But then I had to remember, that strangely, they decided to nerf the Solemn Vow but not the Third Degree at the same time for the same reason. Valve is strange at times.
The Solemn Vow can be extremely powerful in a competitive setting where coordination is expected. Thus it was nerfed. The Third Degree is still ass in comp and casual, so no need for a nerf.
@@SawedOffLaser Still not the point of the matter and even then they could have lazily just decreased the statistics in the same way they did with the Vow. Third Degree I will agree is miserable in Competitive environments, but in Casual it can be more worthwhile since pockets are a regular thing there. Saying there's no need for a nerf when it's literally the same situation and the same problem is a bit ignorant.
@@SethWulfstoneone weapon is useable the other isn’t. How is that the same situation? Fire axe is bad even if Pyro didn’t have other unlocks. It had a microscopic niche on release when flamethrowers dealt so much less damage it was a better first hit and that’s about it
if you think about it, a Third Degree, Holiday Punch and Holy mackarel deal for Stock melees would mean that we get new refreshing take on stock items and more ways to play with them.
I pretty much agree with everything you said except with the bit about the Kukri. I agree with the placement but don't sleep on the Shahanahshsnaha. It deals over 80 damage when under half health, and since you'll usually be injured before you pull out your melee it can make a big difference. Also it still random crits which makes it's downside less effective and it's upside deal over 200 damage. It's good.
so you can get a favorable matchup against what? Soldier? You still ain’t winning that fight and you are sacrificing damage in every other situation other than having less than half health Edit: not even a favorable matchup, just slightly better than stock and even then a crit 195 would still kill a soldier after a rocket jump
@@cysheep8261 Soldier or any other class that just jumped in your face. A crit when over half health still deals 146 which will kill any light class and seriously injure a demo or pyro. Soldier will walk away from that a little better (assuming he wasn't that injured and that your crit was still above half health) but you were probably going to die from him anyway. Under half health it deals 84, 110 minicrit and 244 crit. Even if an enemy doesn't die in one hit those are still some serious chunks to lose.
yeah, how often are you going to be in melee range as sniper and also at high health? seems like the upside slightly eclipses the downside because they're numerically similar, but the scenarios where it applies are simply more common
Nah, I agree totally about the fire axe. There really just is no reason to ever take it out, pyro spends so much time running around in high-combat areas and hanging out around dispensers that if you run totally out of ammo you are doing something deeply wrong. Even if you equip it... You'll never find a good chance to use it and you have to force yourself to. At best, I guess it's... AN OPTION in pyro mirror matches if you equip the flare guns, but.... Like... The backscratcher exists as one of the few melee weapons that just does more damage than stock. Without even that bad of a penalty. The fire axe just is nothing.
@@doommaker4000 the RIFT items aka Sun on a Stick and Shaprened Volcano Fragment need better stats. I propose making them a "alt fire throws projectile" sort of improvement, obviously a fire based projectile attack. a Flaregun or Manmelter shot for Scout and a Dragon's Fury fireball for Pyro. this would make them more useful. Third degree with a slight damage nerf of 15% and no random crits for the upside of "hitting overhealed targets steaks overheal health and makes it your overheal" as well as "do minicrits when overhealed" for the added downside of 90% less healing from medics like the Espcape plan Equalizer from the soldier allows for Pyro to be very good when using the Third Degree.
I’d argue that stock bat should be placed above stock shovel as while the shovel is nice to pull out to prevent self-damage, unless if who you’re attacking is charging for your ass constantly, you’ll never get hits in thanks to Soldier only barely beating Heavy on foot when it comes to movement speed. Even without unlocks, the average Soldier would probably prefer to load another rocket if they don’t have a shotgun on them and risk self damage instead of trying to get melee hits in as a class that gets outpaced by everyone else that isn’t Heavy. At least with the bat, you’re playing as the fastest class in the game that can break that distance almost instantly.
I kinda laughed at sniper being so high, then I remembered I pretty much always use my sign (a stock reskin) when I'm not running jarate bushwacka (which is rare nowadays). Same with Demo. Other than the pain train I rarely run anything other than stock unless I'm playing demoknight (with the exception of mvm demo where I will sometimes run the eyelander in conjunction with the scottish resistance)
The stock wrench is a good pair of training wheels. But there is always a better wrench depending on the game state and when you have enough knowledge to know when you should switch you'll never find yourself using stock. A bit of a luke-warm take but I think the Jag is a better all-rounder. It's sad that random crits are the stock wrenchs only merit. I agree with the list tho
Not much to add since I mostly agree with your list, maybe one or two places I'd swap around. Thought as a player who plays Scout alot I heavily disagree with stock bat being good AND with Scout having "good unlocks" besides atomizer and wrap assassin we don't have nuthin. And stock melee is very redundant on scout since his primary does more dmg and reloads pretty fast. Also I'd like to add that I think secondaries in Tf2 are like melees in that stock secondaries just usually pretty bad. Especially if you count Engys shotgun as secondary and wrench as true primary and medi gun as primary and syringe as secondary(and same goes to grenade launcher). Really the only good stocks are primaries but that's arguably because TF2 devs were very careful in designing primary unlocks to not just make op stat swap replacements for primaries. Getting Tf2 OG update kinda opens your eyes to how many weapon stocks are just meh compared to unlocks and only primary stock holds
I won't disagree with the tier list here but I will say there is 1 genuine use case for the stock fire axe/third degree despite the existence of the Powerjack. Dragon's fury pyro with a flare gun of some kinda against a darwin's danger shield sniper while you have a medic. You don't want to pull out the Powerjack for the damage vulnerability and your primary and secondary are legitimately invalidated by the danger shield since more then the flamethrower the darwin's turns off the dragon's fury's 3x damage against burning players upside. It even works against pyros but not exactly the Darwin's danger shield. Since you have a medic you don't want to be using the back scratcher and since you're up against someone who you want to kill with your melee the homewrecker is outclassed. Also, once again since the enemy can't be set on fire the axeanguiser is out of the picture. (Or players half submerged in water but in that case the neon annihilator takes the cake.) For the counter argument of, "just use a shotgun" here's a counter argument. Dragon's fury with good aim essentially invalidates the place of the shotgun thanks to higher mid and close range dps. The panic attack dose have it's use in quick switch hyper dps but in all realism that only comes into play against pocketed heavies which you kinda just win against if you have a corner anyways. Against exactly players under water and Darwin's danger shield snipers having a shotgun makes sense but otherwise you're better off using the detonator or scorch shot to light people on fire before they're in range of the pain. The flare gun can also be used to initially light people on fire, to finish people who have gotten out of dragon's fury range, and to finish them off with style if you want to flex.
You didn’t mention the bottle’s insane crit rate. You can practically market garden people with the sticky jumper relying on random crits. No fancy guaranteed crit mechanic needed.
9: fire axe. yeah its a straight upgrade no contending that 8: bone saw. i put this below the fists because you lose so much more by giving it up compared to the fists. 7: fists. heavy has 3 melee options that are all really useful utility, and then a few more that can be powerful if you can get into melee range with them. no reason to use it. 6: shovel: i put this one lower than you do because the market gardener and escape plan give so much potential use for negligible downsides. the escape plan is even better as a weapon because the speed makes it easier to use melee on people and the minicrits rarely matter anyway since they help avoid damage. 5: kukri. jarate bushwacka is just better than using kukri and any secondary. 4: bat. i find the bat pretty useless since theres at least one option that outclasses it at just about everything. for survivability theres the cane or the sun on a stick (sun on a stick is a good weapon fight me), for catching enemies off guard theres the fan of war, boston basher, or literally any primary, for damage when you run out of primary ammo theres the boston basher, and then other uses for the other options 3: knife: very dependant on playstyle but pretty much every knife is decent including stock so this is the first usable stock melee. 2: wrench. very tight competition with the jag and the gunslinger is the only reason this isnt #1 1: bottle. was difficult to decide between this and wrench because demo has multiple other viable options, and demoknight existing, but the tough wrench slot competition is why i put this one in first.
I actually upload all of my videos as unlisted so that I can share them in friend Discords and stuff before they go live. You're the first person who's found one early lol so congrats.
I definitely do believe that the bonesaw is good at what it’s intended to do. It’s like the kukri in that it’s a good last resort self defense option. (It even has the highest DPS of medic melees for all that’s worth.) The problem with it is that the Übersaw exists. If it had a harsh enough penalty (there’s near 0 reason to not run charging in when someone gets near you, please give this a damage vulnerability or decrease in max health, please) and decreased uber gain (seriously 25% is too much on a single hit) it would definitely be a good option for defending yourself. The problem is that the Übersaw gives you a bonus 25-75% über on top of the other goal of getting people off of you. If it didn’t exist it would move from the #7 spot to easily the top 4.
Hey Teal, what do you think TF2's best loadout of all time was? I think it was prenerf Baby Face's, Pretty Boy's, and Atomizer. There was a time period where a good scout main was more or less unstoppable with this loadout.
I quite strongly disagree that the fire axe is the worst stock melee. For pyro, running out of ammo is a very real threat, especially when using the backburner or dragons fury. Usually that's when you'd switch to your secondary but when using the jetpack or detonator, you have to resort to your melee if you intend to kill the person you're fighting unless, they're on minimal hp. In terms of damage, the fire axe isn't that bad. Sure it loses to the back scrathcer and the axtinguisher if the enemy is on fire but random crits invalidate the damage concern a ridiculous amount of the time. Heavy doesnt consume as much ammo as pyro and also, if you're switching to your melee to deal damage as heavy, you're dead regardless of what melee you're using. I'd also argue that the bonesaw beats the fire axe in terms of redundancy but i can see some arguments in favor of the bonesaw
I disagree. Notice how none of the stock melees that are bad were ever used even before unlocks. Nobody really used fists, Fire axe, Bat, And ok admittedly bonesaw saw use prior to ubersaw but it’s still the best dps on medic. Maybe scout would’ve used stock if it wasn’t a weaker version tho
As someone who uses the stock shotgun on Heavy a lot, I definitely have more opportunities to hit someone with melee during fights where I'm using the shotgun, but even then, the Holiday Punch and KGB have downsides that basically don't matter so the only reason I have to use stock fists is Because Funny
Stock bottle is also one of the three only Demo weapons that can random melee crit. Those being the Pain Train and Scotsman Skullcutter. Bottle for all around consistency Pain Train for Payload and Control Points when it’s safe And Scotsman Skullcutter when you’re playing aggressively or Demoflight
I am of the opinion that Stock melees need a unique stat only for stock(so the unlocks get a "this does not have the stock melees stat" as a better downside) which is also a good thing, and I prefer thematic melee stats plus I am of the opinion that stock melees should have a "lots of upsides little to no downsides" sort of design, since they are STOCK melee and are the standard other unlocks compare to. The effects of stock melees could be "on every third hit do a effect" , "on kill gain buff", hold alt fire to do a thing. Medic getting core class improvements that allow for stock buffs is needed(primaries getting alt fire that throws medium health med kits on 30 second cooldown, using the concept art of injector syringes and repurposing them as melee alt fire allows for 20% HP burst healing plus overhealing and a "Press R when melee active for a self heal" on a 15 second cooldown and using the syringes as 25 damage melees and no random crits for the duration of the cooldown). I also think Spy needs a core class improvement of Pyro's airblast level, I think a stat called "Spytech suit armor weave: on knife kill or backstab, gain 20% damage resistance for 3 seconds" helps him out to survive more. ranting aside, this I what I think stock melees need. Scout Stock bat needs a "on third hit: cause Daze effect for 3 seconds" . what is the Daze effect? Daze effect is slowing movement speed, reload speed, rev up speed, firing speed for 20% less or maybe more or maybe even a 15% damage vulnerability as well. Daze debuff on stock bat allows it to have a niche of "ol reliable and useful" compared to the unlocks more situational upsides and downsides. Also, using the Daze debuff as the Sandman effect instead of the slow and also getting a Moonshot that gives the stun back would be useful. Soldier Stock shovel, hold alt fire for a but to do a minicrit attack. Pyro, hold alt fire to do a minicrit and burining attack. Demoman, stock bottle, when taunting, gain 25HP that can overheal to up 50HP. Heavy. Stock fists do a "Pugilist's Hype: on kill, speed boost for 3 seconds" as a upside. this allows Heavy to have a reason to go into melee range with stock fists. I would also propose a Rusing Slav passive, when your MAIN DAMAGE DEALER aka the Minigun is holstered, get 8% more movement speed when using other slots(that means 77% base heavy speed plus Rushing Slav 8% for 85% aka faster then a walking soldier) I would make it stack with speed boosting items and Pugilist's hype. Engineer, stock wrench, make every third hit do minicrit damage. Medic, stock melee, all medic melees get injector syringes, Stock bonesaw syringe has a effect of 5HP regen for 5 seconds and when on cooldown does 25 damage and on hit gives 5% uber. This allows Stock Bonesaw to offer a good base stat choice. Sniper hold alt fire to do a minicrit attack. Spy, all knives get the Spytech Suit armor weave and Stock knife gets the ability to do a "every third butterknife, cause bleed for 5 seconds" as a upside. what do you all think of this?
I've always didn't get the sudden community outcry for balancing stock melee weapons with their unlocks. The unlocks for most of the classes being straight upgrade for utility was fine and fun.
I think pulling a Third Degree, Holiday Punch and Holy Mackrel on stock melees would make them better. Obviously, that also means that new downsides are "does not have the stat of the stock melee", but I think that is also a good thing.
This was a great video Teal, I appreciate the thought provoking commentary! I want to get some thoughts on the fire axe vs the third degree off my chest. I know that TF2 players everywhere seem to agree that the fire axe is the worst weapon in the game because the third degree is a strict upgrade, but heres the thing I sometimes ask myself... how much better is the third degree over stock in terms of power level? The fact of the matter is the pyro melee that people use is usually the homewrecker, axtinquisher or the powerjack. Some will use Neon Annihilator and the Backscratcher has a niche in Degroot Keep, but the Third Degree? It has a tiny use case which is probably why we never see people using it. Pyro's stock fire axe is on a class with a 100% movespeed and a fire immunity, which atleast makes it better than some of the other stock weapons, it's only useless because the flamethrower replaces the need for a melee. The utility of the Powerjack is leagues ahead of the stock fire axe, thats honestly pyro's most useful melee weapon to which all the others are compaired. If you had to use all stock on all classes, I'd say the heavies fists are the least useful melee weapon of the bunch for exactly the reasons you gave with the pyro as a close second, so I do agree with your reasonings I'd just swap those two around in the ranking. The gap in power level and utility between the Bonesaw and the Ubersaw is far larger than the Fire Axe and the Third Degree, and I'm confident few would disagree with me on that. I hope this example makes my case a bit clearer and might be enlightening for those that see the third degree as power creep, as obviously it isn't, its just unfortunate that it gives pay-to-win vibes to the game. I think the Ubersaw is the largest example of powercreep in the game personally! Also, I'm no pyro main so this is just my unbiased perspective as someone that likes to use all stock weapons. I actually play sniper the most and I liked that you understood how valuable the Kukri is!
I agree except I'd swap Shovel and Bat. You said it yourself that there is basically no reason to use the Shovel, right after you went over how the Bat actually does have some use. Soldier is also extremely slow on foot, so using the Shovel won't be easy. Even stuff like the Disciplinary Action makes for a better combat melee weapon due to its large range. The Bat is usable. Shovel is straight up meme tier to me. Anyone who uses it is either new or memeing, with virtually no exceptions.
That’s not mentioning that the speed boost from the Disciplinary Action(and by extension the Escape Plan) actually lets you close the distance between yourself and the enemy to actually get hits in, whereas with stock that’s never happening.
One interesting observasion is how the usefulness of each class's melee weapon depends on their effective range. Classes that deal most of their damage when close to the enemy like Scout and Heavy rely on their melee less because they already have an excellent close range damage dealing tool in their primary slot.
I kinda knew from the start it would be either Demo or Spy in #1 because of no self-dmg at close range or instakills. As a Demo main, I was more inclined to say Demo was #1.
most of heavy's melees have a gimmick or debuff of some sort. between the already acceptable swing time and random crits, stock fists really are not that bad.
will just say for demo, the eyelanders on kill buffs actually make it an oppressive stock demo option if you get the oportunity. even with one head you get a slight speed boost and only lack 10 health from stock, but that speed should allow you to secure another kill. at 4 heads you basically have the speed of scout with the health of soldier and 2 primary explosive weapons. it's basically the theoretically most powerful you could be at the game just requires an insane amount of skill or a basic loadout switch from demoknight.
The stock Bat is actually in the same boat as the Fire Axe, in that it's outclassed by a direct upgrade, that being the Holy Mackerel, which is a direct upgrade by being funnier
Id actually put the fire axe above the fists. Theyre both ass for the same reason but a pyro can get a kill with the fire axe relatively easily. He can sneak up on someone or just corner someone with it, heavy cannot. There’s very little heavy can do to get a legitimate kill with the fists.
I thought this would be a tier list comparing the stock melees with eachother. I wouldve put the bonesaw (and possibly knife) as the best type of stock melee and bat as worst.
Except for cases like the stock fire axe, fists, shovel and syringe gun where the other options are so very obviously better that people don’t somehow think they’re better, they just are.
I tend to use the stock bottle when i either play Stickybomb Demo or i just think that my Eyelander's downsides might be too harsh for my current situation in the state of the game. But since i recently got the Pan, i use it more than the stock bottle
Stock knife god tier. Reason its great, learning. Learning how to backstab is so important as spy, after you have gotten better at backstabs than yes it can be over shadowed. But, compared to The icicle which is great for saving you ass from pyros, the ice statues they leave can point the team in the direction of you (even though all knife do that with the kill feed and loud fucking scream the merc yells out). The best knives are the big earner, and the kunai for obvious reasons.
The stock knife is the best in slot option for the class. It should be number one as demo does not get nearly as much use out of his melee compared to spy.
The apoco-fists are just reskined of stock fists. The fists are better then you think there are. A big reason that the fists are seen as "bad" there kinda boring to look at.
It kinda sucks that the bottle is the best simply because the rest of demos melees are either specific or just plain bad. Do I want the no frills dancing weapon, the ones that are designed for an entirely different class, the one that give a buff in only 3 game modes while giving me a weakness to the single most common damage type, or do I want the slower to draw, self damaging, essentially single use weapon that can’t even kill the weakest classes any quicker than normal. Really tricky decision there.
Wrench below the kukri? The wrench is (debatably) the best defensive wrench with the only real competition being the jag. Also calling the southern hospitality of all things "basically a straight upgrade" is wild, you lose out on random crits (something that the stock wrench does and does very often) and you gain a semi-minor damage vulnerability to fire for an extra 20 damage over 5 entire seconds per swing at best. Idk what I find more insane, calling the kukri better then stock wrench or calling the southern hospitality basically a straight upgrade
if you have a demo, sniper, engie, and spy all with their melees i heavily doubt the demo is doing more then the spy and engie with their melees, unless its a demo knight and i heavily doubt a melee only sniper would out perform an engie
Here's my top 3: 1) Demo's Bottle. I only put it above kukri due to the fact b4nny runs shahansha so clearly it ain't best. 2) Sniper Kukri. Only Shahansha rivals it. The reason I didn't count bushwacka is cuz 1) it's banned in msot comp scenes so most likely one day will get nerfed and 2) again it's second best compared to the REST of stock melees And 3) Spy knife. It's not high cuz Kunai and Big Earner just so much better than stock.
big earner has a huge downside of making you die in one hit to very common attacks. I'd argue stock knife is the best defensive knife for that +25 health boost and no downsides whatsoever.
@@FearThePegasus although, it would be great if there was a "Upgrade your arsenal" sort of update that gives core class changes where needed as well as stuff like stock melees getting some stats over nothing.
Why didn't you mention about the BEST thing about good-ol' bottl - RANDOM CRITS!!?!?!? Like almost every meeleee of demo's doesn't have them, only stock, his reskins, pain train and scullcutter (have downsides). AND THIS THING CRITS ALMOST, IF NOT AS OR EVEN MORE THAN A PAN
The fact that the wrench and the knife didn't win, is just an absolute troll. Like what? Even dane thinks stock wrench is best or tied for best, and every spy main says stock is just the best knife
The other options for demo are the swords which all have noticeable downsides for non-demoknights, the pain train which is a straight downgrade on a number of gamemodes and the caber. Demo's bottle is one of the best stock melees and arguably the best not due to being good by itself, but due to the lack of non-situational options he has.
as a guy with strange apaco fists (8056 kills) i disagree with the fists being 8th, i will argue that compared to demoman it isnt good, but soldiers shovel is def worse.
I am of the opinion that Stock melees need a unique stat only for stock(so the unlocks get a "this does not have the stock melees stat" as a better downside) which is also a good thing, and I prefer thematic melee stats plus I am of the opinion that stock melees should have a "lots of upsides little to no downsides" sort of design, since they are STOCK melee and are the standard other unlocks compare to. The effects of stock melees could be "on every third hit do a effect" , "on kill gain buff", hold alt fire to do a thing. Medic getting core class improvements that allow for stock buffs is needed(primaries getting alt fire that throws medium health med kits on 30 second cooldown, using the concept art of injector syringes and repurposing them as melee alt fire allows for 20% HP burst healing plus overhealing and a "Press R when melee active for a self heal" on a 15 second cooldown and using the syringes as 25 damage melees and no random crits for the duration of the cooldown). I also think Spy needs a core class improvement of Pyro's airblast level, I think a stat called "Spytech suit armor weave: on knife kill or backstab, gain 20% damage resistance for 3 seconds" helps him out to survive more. ranting aside, this I what I think stock melees need. Scout Stock bat needs a "on third hit: cause Daze effect for 3 seconds" . what is the Daze effect? Daze effect is slowing movement speed, reload speed, rev up speed, firing speed for 20% less or maybe more or maybe even a 15% damage vulnerability as well. Daze debuff on stock bat allows it to have a niche of "ol reliable and useful" compared to the unlocks more situational upsides and downsides. Also, using the Daze debuff as the Sandman effect instead of the slow and also getting a Moonshot that gives the stun back would be useful. Soldier Stock shovel, hold alt fire for a but to do a minicrit attack. Pyro, hold alt fire to do a minicrit and burining attack. Demoman, stock bottle, when taunting, gain 25HP that can overheal to up 50HP. Heavy. Stock fists do a "Pugilist's Hype: on kill, speed boost for 3 seconds" as a upside. this allows Heavy to have a reason to go into melee range with stock fists. I would also propose a Rusing Slav passive, when your MAIN DAMAGE DEALER aka the Minigun is holstered, get 8% more movement speed when using other slots(that means 77% base heavy speed plus Rushing Slav 8% for 85% aka faster then a walking soldier) I would make it stack with speed boosting items and Pugilist's hype. Engineer, stock wrench, make every third hit do minicrit damage. Medic, stock melee, all medic melees get injector syringes, Stock bonesaw syringe has a effect of 5HP regen for 5 seconds and when on cooldown does 25 damage and on hit gives 5% uber. This allows Stock Bonesaw to offer a good base stat choice. Sniper hold alt fire to do a minicrit attack. Spy, all knives get the Spytech Suit armor weave and Stock knife gets the ability to do a "every third butterknife, cause bleed for 5 seconds" as a upside. what do you all think of this?
![[TF2] Skill-Dependent Weapons](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/1JXh-Lz43t8/mqdefault.jpg)
![[TF2] Skill-Dependent Weapons](/img/tr.png)
![[TF2] "Non-Meta" Weapons I Love](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/zbAGWLYBB34/mqdefault.jpg)
Hey all! I know this video is a bit more simply edited than my usual stuff, but I hope you enjoy regardless! I also apologize for the background footage NOT being me running around hitting people with Stock Melees. Would you believe that recording footage of running at people with a bunch of mostly useless stock weapons isn't very easy or fun? Regardless, enjoy the video, and I'll see y'all soon.
you call it simple, i call it classic. literally this video feels like it couldve come out in 2015 in the best way.
its like drinking water after nothing but soda and gatorade. its refreshing
Counterpoint on the stock bat: If you have the Batsaber, the sheer cool factor makes it always worth equipping.
I use the Batsaber to get medics to pocket me.
same with apoco fists
Even if the Third Degree didn't exist, the fire ax would still easily take the bottom spot. The main use of most stock melee weapons is a last resort when your ammo runs out, but Pyro's specialty as a close-range combatant means that they regularly have access to more ammo. The Third Degree is a direct upgrade, but it's still one of the worst melee options for Pyro. The only reason that isn't contradictory is that the stock ax doesn't have a place in the Pyro's toolset to begin with. It seems like it was included not to actually be used but to simply prevent Pyro from bugging out on command by spending all of their ammo from their actual weapons and having nothing left to auto-equip.
The fire axe wasn’t *totally* useless on launch. Flamethrowers dealt a LOT less damage, so a melee hit followed by flames could be a better ambush back when the FOV was so small. Most of your kills were from afterburn anyway. Course back then Pyro was just a spychecker in terms of actual use so I concede I’m arguing semantics at most
@@Skullhawk13especially with how inconsistent the fire particles were on launch
Like half the time someone could be engulfed in flames and not be set on fire and other times
Someone is nowhere near the fire and they get set on fire
8:57 instead of being paranoid as engineer he decided to do the complete opposite and disable all of his senses. Truly a high iq play
"Y'all hear somethin'?"
I love the breakdown
Fire Axe, Fists, Bat- theres not any reason you should ever really pull this out
Wrench, Kukri, Bonesaw, Shovel- good decent option
Knife and Bottle- every other melee massively changes how the class is played
I feel like that for the bottle and shovel they have special uses
Since they are great if you are too low to take any splash damage from your own explosives
Pyro's melee isn't the only one with a straight upgrade. The holy mackerel can detect dead ringing spies over the stock bat, and the Boston Basher's downside isn't really a downside. It has utility for bleed jumping and helping medics build uber, plus if you use it as a melee weapon the downside only happens when you miss. Just wanted to put that out there
Boston Basher needs many skill not to bleed to death and Holy Mackerel's upgrade isn't really upgrade, since if you'll ever kill a death ringing spy with such a fast attacking melee, than you'll probably will know that he's using ringer
i run the fish and ive caught a few dead ringer spies whove decided to actually feign their death and use it at low health @@Ne_Ne_Vova_UA
Two words can easily refute the claim.
Third. Degree.
...oh wait, I completely misread thst claim.
Some people consider Pyrovision to be a downside, but in theory the Rainblower’s tauntkill also makes it a direct upgrade.
Showdown Tauntkill on the fists might not have increased its rank but still deserves a mention.
Being one of the two stock melee taunt kill weapons, and the tauntkill with the longest range (except technically the scorchshot taunts flare on a low health enemy, but thats outside of the official oneshot range anyways), should give it a better ranking than 8th at least. It also doesnt suffer like the knive with its two weak hits before the actual kill.
At first I was confused when you said it was only the Third Degree that was a pay to win item that is a direct upgrade to stick, as my brain did indeed think "But what about the Solemn vow? It's the same premise where it functions as stock with an additional upside." But then I had to remember, that strangely, they decided to nerf the Solemn Vow but not the Third Degree at the same time for the same reason. Valve is strange at times.
Yeah, I remember back in the day there were 2 weapons that were straight upgrades. Then they changed one but not the other for some reason.
The Solemn Vow can be extremely powerful in a competitive setting where coordination is expected. Thus it was nerfed. The Third Degree is still ass in comp and casual, so no need for a nerf.
@@SawedOffLaser Still not the point of the matter and even then they could have lazily just decreased the statistics in the same way they did with the Vow. Third Degree I will agree is miserable in Competitive environments, but in Casual it can be more worthwhile since pockets are a regular thing there.
Saying there's no need for a nerf when it's literally the same situation and the same problem is a bit ignorant.
@@SethWulfstoneone weapon is useable the other isn’t. How is that the same situation? Fire axe is bad even if Pyro didn’t have other unlocks. It had a microscopic niche on release when flamethrowers dealt so much less damage it was a better first hit and that’s about it
if you think about it, a Third Degree, Holiday Punch and Holy mackarel deal for Stock melees would mean that we get new refreshing take on stock items and more ways to play with them.
Stock knife, case closed.
Wasnt the ubersaw the best stock melee weapon?
Bottle>
@@orlandodanielgonzalezalcar3360 yes, the ubersaw is definitely stock
@@orlandodanielgonzalezalcar3360Ubersaw?
Stock knife kinda sucks. It offers none of the benefits of the others.
8:56
**casusally building**
9:02
**realization**
That clip was so disrespectful, poor guy was just doing his job
I pretty much agree with everything you said except with the bit about the Kukri. I agree with the placement but don't sleep on the Shahanahshsnaha. It deals over 80 damage when under half health, and since you'll usually be injured before you pull out your melee it can make a big difference. Also it still random crits which makes it's downside less effective and it's upside deal over 200 damage. It's good.
so you can get a favorable matchup against what? Soldier? You still ain’t winning that fight and you are sacrificing damage in every other situation other than having less than half health
Edit: not even a favorable matchup, just slightly better than stock and even then a crit 195 would still kill a soldier after a rocket jump
@@cysheep8261 Soldier or any other class that just jumped in your face. A crit when over half health still deals 146 which will kill any light class and seriously injure a demo or pyro. Soldier will walk away from that a little better (assuming he wasn't that injured and that your crit was still above half health) but you were probably going to die from him anyway.
Under half health it deals 84, 110 minicrit and 244 crit. Even if an enemy doesn't die in one hit those are still some serious chunks to lose.
yeah, how often are you going to be in melee range as sniper and also at high health? seems like the upside slightly eclipses the downside because they're numerically similar, but the scenarios where it applies are simply more common
Nah, I agree totally about the fire axe. There really just is no reason to ever take it out, pyro spends so much time running around in high-combat areas and hanging out around dispensers that if you run totally out of ammo you are doing something deeply wrong. Even if you equip it... You'll never find a good chance to use it and you have to force yourself to. At best, I guess it's... AN OPTION in pyro mirror matches if you equip the flare guns, but.... Like... The backscratcher exists as one of the few melee weapons that just does more damage than stock. Without even that bad of a penalty. The fire axe just is nothing.
The only time fire axe is good is if you know a hit will kill someone and you are already right up on them.
Even if you want a useless melee, Volcano Fragment is still better, just because it looks cooler. Or hotter, I guess
third degree negs
@@doommaker4000hot hand is better meme
@@doommaker4000 the RIFT items aka Sun on a Stick and Shaprened Volcano Fragment need better stats. I propose making them a "alt fire throws projectile" sort of improvement, obviously a fire based projectile attack. a Flaregun or Manmelter shot for Scout and a Dragon's Fury fireball for Pyro. this would make them more useful.
Third degree with a slight damage nerf of 15% and no random crits for the upside of "hitting overhealed targets steaks overheal health and makes it your overheal" as well as "do minicrits when overhealed" for the added downside of 90% less healing from medics like the Espcape plan Equalizer from the soldier allows for Pyro to be very good when using the Third Degree.
I’d argue that stock bat should be placed above stock shovel as while the shovel is nice to pull out to prevent self-damage, unless if who you’re attacking is charging for your ass constantly, you’ll never get hits in thanks to Soldier only barely beating Heavy on foot when it comes to movement speed. Even without unlocks, the average Soldier would probably prefer to load another rocket if they don’t have a shotgun on them and risk self damage instead of trying to get melee hits in as a class that gets outpaced by everyone else that isn’t Heavy.
At least with the bat, you’re playing as the fastest class in the game that can break that distance almost instantly.
I kinda laughed at sniper being so high, then I remembered I pretty much always use my sign (a stock reskin) when I'm not running jarate bushwacka (which is rare nowadays).
Same with Demo. Other than the pain train I rarely run anything other than stock unless I'm playing demoknight (with the exception of mvm demo where I will sometimes run the eyelander in conjunction with the scottish resistance)
You forgot the true direct upgrade to stock: the frying pan, boasting a guaranteed random crit whenever gaben says so
The stock wrench is a good pair of training wheels.
But there is always a better wrench depending on the game state and when you have enough knowledge to know when you should switch you'll never find yourself using stock.
A bit of a luke-warm take but I think the Jag is a better all-rounder. It's sad that random crits are the stock wrenchs only merit.
I agree with the list tho
Not much to add since I mostly agree with your list, maybe one or two places I'd swap around.
Thought as a player who plays Scout alot I heavily disagree with stock bat being good AND with Scout having "good unlocks" besides atomizer and wrap assassin we don't have nuthin. And stock melee is very redundant on scout since his primary does more dmg and reloads pretty fast.
Also I'd like to add that I think secondaries in Tf2 are like melees in that stock secondaries just usually pretty bad. Especially if you count Engys shotgun as secondary and wrench as true primary and medi gun as primary and syringe as secondary(and same goes to grenade launcher). Really the only good stocks are primaries but that's arguably because TF2 devs were very careful in designing primary unlocks to not just make op stat swap replacements for primaries.
Getting Tf2 OG update kinda opens your eyes to how many weapon stocks are just meh compared to unlocks and only primary stock holds
I won't disagree with the tier list here but I will say there is 1 genuine use case for the stock fire axe/third degree despite the existence of the Powerjack. Dragon's fury pyro with a flare gun of some kinda against a darwin's danger shield sniper while you have a medic. You don't want to pull out the Powerjack for the damage vulnerability and your primary and secondary are legitimately invalidated by the danger shield since more then the flamethrower the darwin's turns off the dragon's fury's 3x damage against burning players upside. It even works against pyros but not exactly the Darwin's danger shield. Since you have a medic you don't want to be using the back scratcher and since you're up against someone who you want to kill with your melee the homewrecker is outclassed. Also, once again since the enemy can't be set on fire the axeanguiser is out of the picture. (Or players half submerged in water but in that case the neon annihilator takes the cake.)
For the counter argument of, "just use a shotgun" here's a counter argument. Dragon's fury with good aim essentially invalidates the place of the shotgun thanks to higher mid and close range dps. The panic attack dose have it's use in quick switch hyper dps but in all realism that only comes into play against pocketed heavies which you kinda just win against if you have a corner anyways. Against exactly players under water and Darwin's danger shield snipers having a shotgun makes sense but otherwise you're better off using the detonator or scorch shot to light people on fire before they're in range of the pain. The flare gun can also be used to initially light people on fire, to finish people who have gotten out of dragon's fury range, and to finish them off with style if you want to flex.
You didn’t mention the bottle’s insane crit rate. You can practically market garden people with the sticky jumper relying on random crits. No fancy guaranteed crit mechanic needed.
Yeah it has a 300% crit rate
I still think demoman deserves a market gardener, it doesnt need to be better than stock, it would just make playing demo on hightower 10x more fun
@@jakestaheli8532there is it's called the Ullapool-Caber
@@Benito675 you're lucky to kill a light class with that thing.
9: fire axe. yeah its a straight upgrade no contending that
8: bone saw. i put this below the fists because you lose so much more by giving it up compared to the fists.
7: fists. heavy has 3 melee options that are all really useful utility, and then a few more that can be powerful if you can get into melee range with them. no reason to use it.
6: shovel: i put this one lower than you do because the market gardener and escape plan give so much potential use for negligible downsides. the escape plan is even better as a weapon because the speed makes it easier to use melee on people and the minicrits rarely matter anyway since they help avoid damage.
5: kukri. jarate bushwacka is just better than using kukri and any secondary.
4: bat. i find the bat pretty useless since theres at least one option that outclasses it at just about everything. for survivability theres the cane or the sun on a stick (sun on a stick is a good weapon fight me), for catching enemies off guard theres the fan of war, boston basher, or literally any primary, for damage when you run out of primary ammo theres the boston basher, and then other uses for the other options
3: knife: very dependant on playstyle but pretty much every knife is decent including stock so this is the first usable stock melee.
2: wrench. very tight competition with the jag and the gunslinger is the only reason this isnt #1
1: bottle. was difficult to decide between this and wrench because demo has multiple other viable options, and demoknight existing, but the tough wrench slot competition is why i put this one in first.
Cant tell if this was supposed to be unlisted or private, but cool stuff anywho!
I actually upload all of my videos as unlisted so that I can share them in friend Discords and stuff before they go live. You're the first person who's found one early lol so congrats.
@TealOpal oh thats pretty nifty, good vid!
7:44 did you just kill an a-posing scout
I definitely do believe that the bonesaw is good at what it’s intended to do. It’s like the kukri in that it’s a good last resort self defense option. (It even has the highest DPS of medic melees for all that’s worth.) The problem with it is that the Übersaw exists. If it had a harsh enough penalty (there’s near 0 reason to not run charging in when someone gets near you, please give this a damage vulnerability or decrease in max health, please) and decreased uber gain (seriously 25% is too much on a single hit) it would definitely be a good option for defending yourself. The problem is that the Übersaw gives you a bonus 25-75% über on top of the other goal of getting people off of you. If it didn’t exist it would move from the #7 spot to easily the top 4.
even if ÜS didn't existed the Solemn vow exist,
@@crissis3263and the amputator
@@crissis3263 Solemn Vow got nerfed a while ago, it's no longer just a straight upgrade over stock. It god a 10% swing speed reduction
@@screamingcactus1753 ehh, and?
I ain't gonna argue with scrumpy being the best. But the one thing that all the stock melees have (not pyro, scout or spy) is that there consistent
Hey Teal, what do you think TF2's best loadout of all time was? I think it was prenerf Baby Face's, Pretty Boy's, and Atomizer. There was a time period where a good scout main was more or less unstoppable with this loadout.
I’d say crossbow stock medigun übersaw is currently undisputed, unless the game state would warrant switching mediguns
I quite strongly disagree that the fire axe is the worst stock melee. For pyro, running out of ammo is a very real threat, especially when using the backburner or dragons fury. Usually that's when you'd switch to your secondary but when using the jetpack or detonator, you have to resort to your melee if you intend to kill the person you're fighting unless, they're on minimal hp. In terms of damage, the fire axe isn't that bad. Sure it loses to the back scrathcer and the axtinguisher if the enemy is on fire but random crits invalidate the damage concern a ridiculous amount of the time. Heavy doesnt consume as much ammo as pyro and also, if you're switching to your melee to deal damage as heavy, you're dead regardless of what melee you're using. I'd also argue that the bonesaw beats the fire axe in terms of redundancy but i can see some arguments in favor of the bonesaw
IDK, the Fire Axe seems like it was placed a bit high on this list
It's sad that most stock melees are obsolete. It shouldn't be the case
I disagree. Notice how none of the stock melees that are bad were ever used even before unlocks. Nobody really used fists, Fire axe, Bat, And ok admittedly bonesaw saw use prior to ubersaw but it’s still the best dps on medic. Maybe scout would’ve used stock if it wasn’t a weaker version tho
As someone who uses the stock shotgun on Heavy a lot, I definitely have more opportunities to hit someone with melee during fights where I'm using the shotgun, but even then, the Holiday Punch and KGB have downsides that basically don't matter so the only reason I have to use stock fists is Because Funny
Stock bottle is also one of the three only Demo weapons that can random melee crit. Those being the Pain Train and Scotsman Skullcutter.
Bottle for all around consistency
Pain Train for Payload and Control Points when it’s safe
And Scotsman Skullcutter when you’re playing aggressively or Demoflight
I feel like you could make the stock melees viable by giving them the gunslingers triple hit crit buff
The stock knife would be good
The stock knife would be good
The stock knife would be good
I am of the opinion that Stock melees need a unique stat only for stock(so the unlocks get a "this does not have the stock melees stat" as a better downside) which is also a good thing, and I prefer thematic melee stats plus I am of the opinion that stock melees should have a "lots of upsides little to no downsides" sort of design, since they are STOCK melee and are the standard other unlocks compare to. The effects of stock melees could be "on every third hit do a effect" , "on kill gain buff", hold alt fire to do a thing. Medic getting core class improvements that allow for stock buffs is needed(primaries getting alt fire that throws medium health med kits on 30 second cooldown, using the concept art of injector syringes and repurposing them as melee alt fire allows for 20% HP burst healing plus overhealing and a "Press R when melee active for a self heal" on a 15 second cooldown and using the syringes as 25 damage melees and no random crits for the duration of the cooldown). I also think Spy needs a core class improvement of Pyro's airblast level, I think a stat called "Spytech suit armor weave: on knife kill or backstab, gain 20% damage resistance for 3 seconds" helps him out to survive more. ranting aside, this I what I think stock melees need.
Scout Stock bat needs a "on third hit: cause Daze effect for 3 seconds" . what is the Daze effect? Daze effect is slowing movement speed, reload speed, rev up speed, firing speed for 20% less or maybe more or maybe even a 15% damage vulnerability as well. Daze debuff on stock bat allows it to have a niche of "ol reliable and useful" compared to the unlocks more situational upsides and downsides. Also, using the Daze debuff as the Sandman effect instead of the slow and also getting a Moonshot that gives the stun back would be useful.
Soldier Stock shovel, hold alt fire for a but to do a minicrit attack.
Pyro, hold alt fire to do a minicrit and burining attack.
Demoman, stock bottle, when taunting, gain 25HP that can overheal to up 50HP.
Heavy. Stock fists do a "Pugilist's Hype: on kill, speed boost for 3 seconds" as a upside. this allows Heavy to have a reason to go into melee range with stock fists. I would also propose a Rusing Slav passive, when your MAIN DAMAGE DEALER aka the Minigun is holstered, get 8% more movement speed when using other slots(that means 77% base heavy speed plus Rushing Slav 8% for 85% aka faster then a walking soldier) I would make it stack with speed boosting items and Pugilist's hype.
Engineer, stock wrench, make every third hit do minicrit damage.
Medic, stock melee, all medic melees get injector syringes, Stock bonesaw syringe has a effect of 5HP regen for 5 seconds and when on cooldown does 25 damage and on hit gives 5% uber. This allows Stock Bonesaw to offer a good base stat choice.
Sniper hold alt fire to do a minicrit attack.
Spy, all knives get the Spytech Suit armor weave and Stock knife gets the ability to do a "every third butterknife, cause bleed for 5 seconds" as a upside.
what do you all think of this?
@@EggyBholy based
I've always didn't get the sudden community outcry for balancing stock melee weapons with their unlocks. The unlocks for most of the classes being straight upgrade for utility was fine and fun.
I think pulling a Third Degree, Holiday Punch and Holy Mackrel on stock melees would make them better. Obviously, that also means that new downsides are "does not have the stat of the stock melee", but I think that is also a good thing.
This was a great video Teal, I appreciate the thought provoking commentary!
I want to get some thoughts on the fire axe vs the third degree off my chest. I know that TF2 players everywhere seem to agree that the fire axe is the worst weapon in the game because the third degree is a strict upgrade, but heres the thing I sometimes ask myself... how much better is the third degree over stock in terms of power level? The fact of the matter is the pyro melee that people use is usually the homewrecker, axtinquisher or the powerjack. Some will use Neon Annihilator and the Backscratcher has a niche in Degroot Keep, but the Third Degree? It has a tiny use case which is probably why we never see people using it.
Pyro's stock fire axe is on a class with a 100% movespeed and a fire immunity, which atleast makes it better than some of the other stock weapons, it's only useless because the flamethrower replaces the need for a melee. The utility of the Powerjack is leagues ahead of the stock fire axe, thats honestly pyro's most useful melee weapon to which all the others are compaired.
If you had to use all stock on all classes, I'd say the heavies fists are the least useful melee weapon of the bunch for exactly the reasons you gave with the pyro as a close second, so I do agree with your reasonings I'd just swap those two around in the ranking. The gap in power level and utility between the Bonesaw and the Ubersaw is far larger than the Fire Axe and the Third Degree, and I'm confident few would disagree with me on that. I hope this example makes my case a bit clearer and might be enlightening for those that see the third degree as power creep, as obviously it isn't, its just unfortunate that it gives pay-to-win vibes to the game. I think the Ubersaw is the largest example of powercreep in the game personally!
Also, I'm no pyro main so this is just my unbiased perspective as someone that likes to use all stock weapons. I actually play sniper the most and I liked that you understood how valuable the Kukri is!
I agree except I'd swap Shovel and Bat. You said it yourself that there is basically no reason to use the Shovel, right after you went over how the Bat actually does have some use. Soldier is also extremely slow on foot, so using the Shovel won't be easy. Even stuff like the Disciplinary Action makes for a better combat melee weapon due to its large range. The Bat is usable. Shovel is straight up meme tier to me. Anyone who uses it is either new or memeing, with virtually no exceptions.
That’s not mentioning that the speed boost from the Disciplinary Action(and by extension the Escape Plan) actually lets you close the distance between yourself and the enemy to actually get hits in, whereas with stock that’s never happening.
One interesting observasion is how the usefulness of each class's melee weapon depends on their effective range. Classes that deal most of their damage when close to the enemy like Scout and Heavy rely on their melee less because they already have an excellent close range damage dealing tool in their primary slot.
The fan o'war deserves more attention 😢 4:29
I kinda knew from the start it would be either Demo or Spy in #1 because of no self-dmg at close range or instakills. As a Demo main, I was more inclined to say Demo was #1.
most of heavy's melees have a gimmick or debuff of some sort. between the already acceptable swing time and random crits, stock fists really are not that bad.
The Scottish Handshake should be a Market Gardener: crits when blast jumping, 25% swing speed penalty.
8:55 this clip is so disrespectful, why you gotta do that poor engie like that, he just wanted to do his job
My list:
9. Fire Axe
8. Bat
7. Fists
6. Shovel
5. Bonesaw
4. Wrench
3. Kukri
2. Bottle
1. Knife
will just say for demo, the eyelanders on kill buffs actually make it an oppressive stock demo option if you get the oportunity.
even with one head you get a slight speed boost and only lack 10 health from stock, but that speed should allow you to secure another kill.
at 4 heads you basically have the speed of scout with the health of soldier and 2 primary explosive weapons.
it's basically the theoretically most powerful you could be at the game just requires an insane amount of skill or a basic loadout switch from demoknight.
Heavy is def top 1 in my opinion because of his taunt kill, the pootis pow. no debate needed.
Spy fencing taunt come at a very close second though.
The stock Bat is actually in the same boat as the Fire Axe, in that it's outclassed by a direct upgrade, that being the Holy Mackerel, which is a direct upgrade by being funnier
Dead Ringer spies also hate it. So, just like Pyro, this direct upgrade is a tool to counter a class.
what hud do you use.
Fun fact:Fists Are not weapons in reality
3:00 I was shaking my head, about 4 puns in a row. We love to hate a good pun keep up the good work man ❤
You’ve become one of my favorite tf2 RUclipsrs, thanks for the great videos and keep up the good work
I love the Solemn Vow, not cause of it's use, but because it's pretty funny hitting people with a head bust
You forgot to talk about the most important part about the Demoman's bottle
It has a really funny animation and breaks on kill
It breaks when you hit something with a crit swing, not when you kill with it
Id actually put the fire axe above the fists. Theyre both ass for the same reason but a pyro can get a kill with the fire axe relatively easily. He can sneak up on someone or just corner someone with it, heavy cannot. There’s very little heavy can do to get a legitimate kill with the fists.
Stock bottle is outclassed by pan on stock demo, and it also works with demoknight.
No, the Ubersaw actually sucks. Melee fights with the enemy are risky and often not worth it. The Amputator has better utility and is far superior.
Chad amputator user detected. Opinion backed.
Heavy fists aren't so bad tho, it even got a higher crit chance and no significant down sides.
Good luck reaching anyone with how slow you are
9:02 That poor Engineer…
I thought this would be a tier list comparing the stock melees with eachother.
I wouldve put the bonesaw (and possibly knife) as the best type of stock melee and bat as worst.
The stock weapons aren’t bad per se, but the existence of other weapons somehow make people think the stock weapon is worse than it usually is
Except for cases like the stock fire axe, fists, shovel and syringe gun where the other options are so very obviously better that people don’t somehow think they’re better, they just are.
I tend to use the stock bottle when i either play Stickybomb Demo or i just think that my Eyelander's downsides might be too harsh for my current situation in the state of the game. But since i recently got the Pan, i use it more than the stock bottle
Stock knife god tier. Reason its great, learning. Learning how to backstab is so important as spy, after you have gotten better at backstabs than yes it can be over shadowed. But, compared to The icicle which is great for saving you ass from pyros, the ice statues they leave can point the team in the direction of you (even though all knife do that with the kill feed and loud fucking scream the merc yells out). The best knives are the big earner, and the kunai for obvious reasons.
The stock knife is the best in slot option for the class. It should be number one as demo does not get nearly as much use out of his melee compared to spy.
The apoco-fists are just reskined of stock fists. The fists are better then you think there are. A big reason that the fists are seen as "bad" there kinda boring to look at.
the apocofists aren't good either
hater @@milliondollarmistake
@@mushroomGdog77 yes
It kinda sucks that the bottle is the best simply because the rest of demos melees are either specific or just plain bad. Do I want the no frills dancing weapon, the ones that are designed for an entirely different class, the one that give a buff in only 3 game modes while giving me a weakness to the single most common damage type, or do I want the slower to draw, self damaging, essentially single use weapon that can’t even kill the weakest classes any quicker than normal. Really tricky decision there.
i enjoy the fire axe for the pure spite of the killed player knowing they died to the fucking fire axe.
Wrench below the kukri? The wrench is (debatably) the best defensive wrench with the only real competition being the jag. Also calling the southern hospitality of all things "basically a straight upgrade" is wild, you lose out on random crits (something that the stock wrench does and does very often) and you gain a semi-minor damage vulnerability to fire for an extra 20 damage over 5 entire seconds per swing at best. Idk what I find more insane, calling the kukri better then stock wrench or calling the southern hospitality basically a straight upgrade
Saw title, less than one second knew the answer: Spy stock knife.
8:57 😂
What was the last time you actually saw someone with the stock Fire Axe
Bat is stronger than shovel, as you actually can use it without rocket jumping.
Scout, because it stuns my enemies with fear!*
*cringe
I believe in Bottleknight supremacy
It’s why I have the consciousness objector because so many classes just work better with stock
No, you may not ask what image is on my objector
if you have a demo, sniper, engie, and spy all with their melees
i heavily doubt the demo is doing more then the spy and engie with their melees, unless its a demo knight
and i heavily doubt a melee only sniper would out perform an engie
2:55
obviously not, his hands arent properly wrapped and he doesnt even have gloves on. not to mention his outfit, he cant even compete like this....
7:44 you monster
i think this list is completely accurate
wrong, fire axe is best. because i like it c:
Heavy’s fists are useless, but I always equip it because it’s funny
I mean, spy is basically a melee class with an insta kill melee weapon. I don’t think much more needs be said
Here's my top 3:
1) Demo's Bottle. I only put it above kukri due to the fact b4nny runs shahansha so clearly it ain't best.
2) Sniper Kukri. Only Shahansha rivals it. The reason I didn't count bushwacka is cuz 1) it's banned in msot comp scenes so most likely one day will get nerfed and 2) again it's second best compared to the REST of stock melees
And
3) Spy knife. It's not high cuz Kunai and Big Earner just so much better than stock.
This man thinks valve is going to nerf the bushwacka 😂 my guy, this game is abandonware at this point, it hasn't had a balance update in 5 years.
big earner has a huge downside of making you die in one hit to very common attacks. I'd argue stock knife is the best defensive knife for that +25 health boost and no downsides whatsoever.
@@FearThePegasus although, it would be great if there was a "Upgrade your arsenal" sort of update that gives core class changes where needed as well as stuff like stock melees getting some stats over nothing.
worst comment
The bushwacka isn't really the problem, it's jarate being OP. If jarate wasn't so strong the bushwacka would be fine.
I feel that stock reskins look nicer than stock bottle tho
Stock bat should be last because the holy mackerel is a direct upgrade
Oh the fists are bad, no denying that, but it has a small niche. Its the only Heavy melee that can Taunt Kill *AND* do damaging random crits.
Why didn't you mention about the BEST thing about good-ol' bottl - RANDOM CRITS!!?!?!?
Like almost every meeleee of demo's doesn't have them, only stock, his reskins, pain train and scullcutter (have downsides). AND THIS THING CRITS ALMOST, IF NOT AS OR EVEN MORE THAN A PAN
I would absolutely trade scout with soldier, you can use the bat to damage enemies, you CANNOT use the shovel for that, because you are too slow
Hey at 7:44 U killed an A-Posing scout...why....
The fact that the wrench and the knife didn't win, is just an absolute troll. Like what? Even dane thinks stock wrench is best or tied for best, and every spy main says stock is just the best knife
The other options for demo are the swords which all have noticeable downsides for non-demoknights, the pain train which is a straight downgrade on a number of gamemodes and the caber. Demo's bottle is one of the best stock melees and arguably the best not due to being good by itself, but due to the lack of non-situational options he has.
The Bat is ok tho, Crit 105 and high swing speed
Actually none of the stock weapons are the best for each character it's always the pan the pan always beats the stock pan supremacy
as a guy with strange apaco fists (8056 kills) i disagree with the fists being 8th, i will argue that compared to demoman it isnt good, but soldiers shovel is def worse.
Good video. 10/10 👍
I equip reskins in place of stock melee cos i want to show that i collected all of them tho
I also use necro smasher to replace stock wrench
and you may ask yourself
well
how did i get here
I am of the opinion that Stock melees need a unique stat only for stock(so the unlocks get a "this does not have the stock melees stat" as a better downside) which is also a good thing, and I prefer thematic melee stats plus I am of the opinion that stock melees should have a "lots of upsides little to no downsides" sort of design, since they are STOCK melee and are the standard other unlocks compare to. The effects of stock melees could be "on every third hit do a effect" , "on kill gain buff", hold alt fire to do a thing. Medic getting core class improvements that allow for stock buffs is needed(primaries getting alt fire that throws medium health med kits on 30 second cooldown, using the concept art of injector syringes and repurposing them as melee alt fire allows for 20% HP burst healing plus overhealing and a "Press R when melee active for a self heal" on a 15 second cooldown and using the syringes as 25 damage melees and no random crits for the duration of the cooldown). I also think Spy needs a core class improvement of Pyro's airblast level, I think a stat called "Spytech suit armor weave: on knife kill or backstab, gain 20% damage resistance for 3 seconds" helps him out to survive more. ranting aside, this I what I think stock melees need.
Scout Stock bat needs a "on third hit: cause Daze effect for 3 seconds" . what is the Daze effect? Daze effect is slowing movement speed, reload speed, rev up speed, firing speed for 20% less or maybe more or maybe even a 15% damage vulnerability as well. Daze debuff on stock bat allows it to have a niche of "ol reliable and useful" compared to the unlocks more situational upsides and downsides. Also, using the Daze debuff as the Sandman effect instead of the slow and also getting a Moonshot that gives the stun back would be useful.
Soldier Stock shovel, hold alt fire for a but to do a minicrit attack.
Pyro, hold alt fire to do a minicrit and burining attack.
Demoman, stock bottle, when taunting, gain 25HP that can overheal to up 50HP.
Heavy. Stock fists do a "Pugilist's Hype: on kill, speed boost for 3 seconds" as a upside. this allows Heavy to have a reason to go into melee range with stock fists. I would also propose a Rusing Slav passive, when your MAIN DAMAGE DEALER aka the Minigun is holstered, get 8% more movement speed when using other slots(that means 77% base heavy speed plus Rushing Slav 8% for 85% aka faster then a walking soldier) I would make it stack with speed boosting items and Pugilist's hype.
Engineer, stock wrench, make every third hit do minicrit damage.
Medic, stock melee, all medic melees get injector syringes, Stock bonesaw syringe has a effect of 5HP regen for 5 seconds and when on cooldown does 25 damage and on hit gives 5% uber. This allows Stock Bonesaw to offer a good base stat choice.
Sniper hold alt fire to do a minicrit attack.
Spy, all knives get the Spytech Suit armor weave and Stock knife gets the ability to do a "every third butterknife, cause bleed for 5 seconds" as a upside.
what do you all think of this?
i just use the stock fists because i find them funny
shansha slander is ridiculous
Heavys fist is best cuz it's a melee with 300hp
man that reference scout kill was super lame
fists have 30% crit chance
Chicken stock
Scout one