Level design is how you bridge the gap between the game mechanics and player. It's a lot harder than just putting shit down on a map. It's something I'm still struggling with a LOT.
you could always delegate and have someone who loves doing level design do just that mainly, and all you have to do is play the level, giving your input if there needs be for changes, and approve it.
This cost money and im sure thats one of the main reasons he doesnt have another one. Now you could say, but there are people which do it for free and yeah you absolutly right... The problem is then the motiviation, you mostly loose them soon and with them the knowledge and all progress. No hate against your comment, i wished i could just find designers for free, but to keep motiviation in persons is either not possible depending on the personality or mostly hard (edge cases always exist).
@@trustnooneelse Everything Cost Money, and that's why you delegate and designate One Team member (that loves and or best amongst you to) do just that, Level Design (in the long run it saves you money time). If one has a 5 man crew even 4 is feesable. Knowledge and Progress wouldn't be lost, all you need to do is reference back to the White Boxing stages of the levels and any notes pertaining to those levels, if you didn't kept or save these, then one has poor basic project management skills.
@@trustnooneelse Time costs money. The idea that your time is somehow free is baffling to me. You can have good levels for 1000 hours of your time learning it, struggling with it and so on, or you can hire someone who will do it in 50 hours. ... the question is: Is it more economical to spend 1000 hours on DYI or to spend 1000 hours on the ability to pay the other one, while honing the skills that you actually want to use? Or, an alternative view: There are three persons. One is great modeller, one is great with audio and one is great with code. They can either make 1 game each (so three games in total), or they can spend the same time on three games they'll make together. Which one will produce better games => potentially more money to sustain their careers? Which one will give them tools to make much more advanced games in the future?
Definitely a worthwhile topic that could be covered in a video all on its own- but I think one of the biggest challenges is finding developer(s) who can get the work done properly without needing a ton of micromanagement whilst also getting paid a proper amount. Unfortunately I don't necessarily have a ton of funds to pay developers a proper amount (all of our current developers are on rev-share which is of course a gamble for all developers involved). Of course on the flipside, I'm sure I'll get tons of replies such as "time is an investment/it equals man hours, etc.", and yes, I 100% agree that me investing time to develop the levels myself is in fact me investing money no matter what- honestly, this entire topic could be covered in one long video as there's quite a few points there (and counter points as well that I'm well aware of). We've got a level designer though that I trust and am giving time and patience to so he can improve and get levels going, with enough time we'll be completing levels at a faster pace. Appreciate the comments from everyone involved in the thread.
@@FirstCrimson Think of any task. Hobbyists can't do it. Juniors can't do it. Not to the level of quality at your standard as the executor of vision. The only immediate option an indie dev has is to do it themselves or accept the subpar outcome; if they're talented at networking they might be able to find someone to partner with on the subject they struggle with. I've lived that life starting my own studio. When you can afford it, be stringent in your hiring and interviewing process; interview at least 20 people and step away if you aren't happy with your candidates. Save the future you, but don't be afraid to fail; we all do. It's what you do with that failure and how you learn from it that defines you, and you've shown that with your tooling approach; these can be documented and taught to people who join your projects.
For a creative professional, it always seems hard to justify pouring so much time into something that others will only see or experience for a brief moment. However, with this. It is an artwork. There's not just one person spending 20 minutes playing the level, but potentially thousands of people playing it. You get to be the one setting the experience for so many people. So I think that could be helpful to justify it.
crimson:- level design is hard me:- yes i am scared also crimson:- level design is very challenging part of gamedev me:- i am gonna do hard challenging things first because "if this is hard very less people will do this"
I feel that so hard, in a different way. I have an endless appreciation for good level design, I love when level design works, and I love chiseling away at a level so it flows better, but the blank canvas stage when you're just shuffling blocks around to see if something *works* is always miserable.
In my experience every time when i was bored from level design, it was because i was designing boring levels. In that case you need to find some ideas for the level that you are really excited about to see ingame. Idk you cant be bored when you design something awesome? Doesnt matter if its levels, music or code
Great video, it’s always good to hear the struggles (as long as it’s not just complaining). Also, I don’t normally play games like yours, but as soon as I saw that door get kicked in, I’m interested! Keep going!
Cheers! (speaking of the door being kicked down, there's tons of improvements I want to make with our door system, hopefully I'll be able to work on it soon™...)
I absolutely hated level design when making my FPS. My biggest takeaways going forward are. 1. Start it early, oh god doing nothing but level design for 2 months killed me. And you learn valuable things about your game when making levels. Anything you can do to reduce your time making levels is extremely helpful. this includes. 2. Do as much "Level Design" before "Level Construction" starts, so you don't have to spend time thinking about things and can just place blocks quickly. 2.1. think of an interesting idea/design goal/set pieces/enemy interactions before you start constructing the level, that way the creation becomes a more fun process of enabling that thing and solving interesting design problems via level creation, rather than just level creation. 2.2. Paper prototype your levels, this is quick and fun, and reduces time while doing the horrible level creation. 3. consider what works and what doesn't work in levels early, keep track of it and use that to prevent repeating mistakes and having to redo them. (also test things like figuring out what size doors work well, what wall heights work well for different things etc) 4. find or make tools that speed up level creation. if somethings taken a while on one level, think 'can this be sped up for my future levels' 5. (not sure if applicable to games with higher quality standards than my game) try to think - what's the bare minimum I need to do to have a "complete" version of this level, and try to pace through doing all of that as fast as you can. more in depth polish/quality can happen later after some level playtesting. Out of those I only did 2.2, 4 and 5. I was lucky enough to have a friend who'd made about 10 level outlines, and I could just implement the gameplay and tweak them. and after spending 2 weeks on the first level, I was able to power through about a level every 3 days finishing 20 levels (with some pretty hefty reuse) in 2 months and could literally not think for the next whole month due to burnout (I wouldn't recommend this lol) Most of the levels are surprisingly good with that schedule. one of them sucks, but I've not been able to bring myself to redo it even after 7 months of shame. In the future I want to experiment with making procedural level systems, and using them to create parts of a semi hand crafted linear/semi linear levels.
I'm not sure if I can really articulate what I want to say but here goes. When I think about level design I think about how all the other parts would fit together and what kind of experience that would feel like to the player. So if we take your john wick like character who travels fast and can eleminate enemies even quicker it poses the problem as you said of players just flying by all this hard work that was put into the linear levels you've laid out. As a player I would want to have a high rush of constant enemies around every corner to really feel like I'm the character I'm playing. So, I think about how can I give the player this experience while also making levels less expensive to make? Linear levels don't have to go away completely but they can be shrunken down dramatically to almost arena type areas linked together where you enter a room and are met with wave apon wave of enemies that pop out of all kinds of doors, windows, and angles. After the slug fest has come to a stop it gives a good downtime to walk to and enter the next arena and have it all start again. These arenas can be almost any size, but the key is to have lots of options for enemies to flank you and each wave will randomise where they come from, maybe even spawning some unique oppensets that require more attention from the player. The player gets to keep the almost constant rush of enemies to fight while staying in one area for an extended amount of time making all the art/design work of that area used effectively. Atleast that's my theory, hope that helps! :)
i understand that there are layers to creating a level, on top of seeing those reviews is very demoralizing but this is only the beginning and some people fail to see that. I’ve been enjoying suit for hire and even convinced 2 of my friends to play it, we are all excited for the next update!
it is incredibly difficult. I mostly get another guy on the team to block out the floor plan, then I fill out the level with the different paths, geometry, enemy spawners, interactions etc, and then pass it off to the artist who refines stuff and replaces the raw geometry with actual assets the art team works on. One segment can potentially days or even a couple weeks of work to fully block it out until it feels right.
I just started doing level design. I appreciate you sharing this video because I started feeling the same way frustrated with level design, but grinding along learning to do it better and faster.
I completely agree. Currently working on a super simple puzzle-platformer and after 20 levels I am stuck. Every other aspect is complete and I would love to release it, but I know it needs more levels and I am not creative enough to make them.
1) The level editor you're working with has too many knobs, bells, whistles and is basically bloatware. 2) You could try instead (not on this project, but in future projects) procedural generation of levels. 3) It might be that there's a better way to organize everything. 4) You may be striving too much for absolute perfection. The way I'd do level design looking at this particular game, is look at where the patterns are you have and procedurally generate interlocking blocks through code, then procedurally generate the enemies. I'd also make sure to have your hierarchy have very strict rules for how it's organized to keep it very neat. Levels for me have strict parents, a strict hierarchy: Props, Lights, Cameras, Actors, Waypoints. it's worth it to take extra time to actually name and re-name and re-name. It's incredibly tedious and very boring work, but it's worth it. In my opinion, a great way of working is to be able to find anything in your level instantly by really thinking hard about naming conventions.
Appreciate the comments from everyone and their insight! Even if I haven't responded, I am/have been reading all of the comments. For those curious, I'm still putting my all into level design/environment art and improving my skills associated with it, I'm sure many people have noticed the improvements in design, intention, and overall look/graphics in the newer levels for Suit for Hire. Even though I may dislike level design and feel like I'm going at snails pace, I'm doing my best to take note of my flaws and what can be improved to make the game a more enjoyable experience. Feel free to wishlist or purchase the game on Steam if you're interested: store.steampowered.com/app/1612420/Suit_for_Hire/
I've been making games for a few years now, but I started doing 3D art like 17 years ago. When I first got my game dev job, I was hired as a "Environment artist" but since that time I have found myself constantly doing animation, character design, writing, texture work, switching rapidly between blender, substance painter, UE4/5 and or Unity along with the topic at hand, level design. Level design to me has always been a real joy to do. The idea of telling a story in the level about something that has nothing to do with the game, but rather the world it is inside of just screams "fun" to me. Leaving hints about events that took place, but you are not a part of, to me says that there is more to the world you are in, than just what you are witness to.
Appreciate your insight and perspective, definitely need to find more enjoyment in the 'story-telling' part of level design, we'll see as I continue working on it.
Level design is inherently a conversation between the designer and the player. The dialog is critical from moment to moment. You say what needs to be said, with flourishes that fit the topic. Sometimes you get sidetracked about things that don't matter, but other times your players will have a critical suggestion that can decide some massive things. I was working on a HL2 mod for a long time, and the most I ever learned about level design was after doing a round of playtesting with outside parties. I had this big idea for a non-linear space and had thrown together stuff in service of the idea, but there was lots of wasted space. Once I saw playtests and got some feedback, I could tie stuff together a lot better. I had a big beach that basically served no purpose, and the player basically just passed over it and there's basically only a couple enemies there at all, and only one way off it. After a couple rounds of playtesting, the beach became the hub between three lanes of the map that connected at different points and worked together to get the player to fight the AI naturally throughout the space and find their way to the critical objective in an unobtrusive way. Signposting of puzzle elements was also a very in-depth process, the lighting, choice of signposting, enemy placement all needed to work cohesively. I won't say that the level came out perfectly, but I was having a blast playing it for a long time, so I figured I did something right. Sadly it isn't out yet, and I'm not sure when it will be because I'm trying to learn Unreal so I can make something that can actually turn me a profit. But if I had a point to this little story, I really loved adding little details for myself. There's a few bodies on the beach from a totally abandoned story thread for the mod that stayed there through to the present version, and hiding secrets in places was also lots of fun. But the most fun way to design levels is to indulge in some light trolling of the player. Enough to put them under pressure, but not enough to instantly kill them and cause frustration. Having a couple of seconds to sprint out of the way when a gun turret springs to life, or suddenly being set upon from above by some asshole on a rappel with a shotgun literally called "this asshole" as the entity name. The trolling gives the space character and builds some memorable moments in the player's mind, or at least in mine. As for my more relevant advice to the creator of this video (and at the risk of tipping my hand to a very similar game I'm working on)- you have a really nice set of mechanics that flow together fluidly. Think of ways to break it up a bit instead of just load zones- the player needs a bit of room to breathe and reset, and you can use the down-time for story moments. Maybe sneaking around outside of a house, while the voyeuristic top-down camera catches people talking about something funny or relevant on the inside. Use the height perspective to foreshadow something later- maybe you'll see a sniper team moving across the roofs that you'll have to fight later in the foreground as you move in the background. I'd try and play with the perspective as much as possible if I were you- the pulled out camera perspective gives you the freedom to do things a bit differently than something like Max Payne or another third person game of that type. You aren't as much of a slave to the player's perspective because they don't have sole control of where they are looking. Use that. Best of luck, I'm wishlisting the hell out of this game and I hope you succeed! Also, how the hell did you pull off that witchcraft of grabbing enemy guns in the offhand and transferring between weapons so fluidly??? That looks so badass. You've clearly done your homework on John Wick.
I like so much you being open and talk about what part of game dev is difficult in your case. Some how the video inspire me to continue in my endevor to learn UE5. Thanks!
Hey man I love your content. I am an architect and I think It would be helpful to first come up w a detailed floor plan showing circulation/ enemy locations/ important checkpoints. Once you have a detailed plan, you can 3D model it on Rhino 3D which would be 100X easier than Unreal Engine modeling. Once modeling simple elements like walls/ structure you would just have to export everything and add materials, furniture, textures, etc. I can see how you hate level design if you're doing it on Unreal Engine, it must be so annoying and difficult. Awesome work man, I really enjoy your videos and seeing how these spaces come along into something playable. Form follows function.
First time watching your videos. I have to say, coming from other channels, I enjoyed the "stream of consciousness" format. It felt very honest and personal, and I felt like I learned a lot about your process and view. It didn't come across as rambling or unfocused at all. This format may not work for every video, but I definitely did enjoy it!
Don't beat yourself up too much mate - this is a massive undertaking and you've already produced a ton of content. Given your gamestyle, it's probably a lot harder to test and iterate your maps compared to something like a basic multiplayer FPS game. It looks awesome - keep at it.
Level design is hard but it is harder when you approach it with a mechanical approach and not a creative one. Example, when I make an environment everything has some kind of "story" to it, whether the thing I am making is directly a part of an actual single player story, an FPS multiplayer map, or just a portfolio piece. That has always helped me put something together that is engaging for the player.
exact. this is one of the rules of good design . when u put something you must know before you place it what is this thing are doing and from where is this thing came from . This is the way to create the best atmosphere.
I think level design is such a huge deal. I’ve been so focused on tech and assets and abilities that I’ve got little to show for my years of effort but tiny tech demos and mechanisms I can use in the game. What I’m lacking is the ability to make content rapidly and with some repeatability. I’ve ended up starting and abandoning lots of tools as I find myself making pieces of blender so I’m leaning into using geometry nodes and blender tooling as I’m finding it just uber frustrating blocker atm. I’m actually looking forward to level design but I need to be satisfied with block out set and get some gameplay going. You’re totally right that you spend tens of hours making levels players will blast through in 5 minutes BUT try to picture the tens of thousands players and therefore hundreds of thousands of minutes of gameplay those hours are making. It doesn’t stop players wanting more content but it’s something to hold onto. It’s also true that level design can be a bit fun mechanics such as providing the illusion of choice and sometimes real choice, eater eggs and secrets and revealing things to the player through the spatial design of the levels. This I am looking forward to, so today I am not going to get bogged down on how to make it look good but instead focus on block out so I can get some of my mechanics living in the game and actually have the project started properly. GL to you with your level design woes!
Personally Level design is one of my favorite topics, even though I am focused on UX & UI design and primarily work on that. To me Level design is what can really make or break a game, though I agree it's also one of the hardest to get right since there are so many things to consider, like you stated; visibility, framing, lighting, coherency, pacing, and So. Much. More. haha Great video mate, always great to hear from developers, especially indie devs, on how they feel and deal with these struggles since not Everything will be fun during development. :)
Bro this is exactly where I am mentally with my game “Learned what I needed to learn, but I can’t apply it to create a level”… damn I felt that. Your whole video was extremely relatable. Thanks for the insights!
In my experience the level design has to be rooted in a mechanic progression in order to make a great impression. Think early mega man where you get new abilities after beating a boss and then the abilities you have gained are later used, mastered and then layered. The hardest games to design well in my view are the ones with the most open ended mechanics where the progression is just experiment based and not based on unlocks. If this is the case the designer has to predict what the majority of players progress will be like and adjust accordingly, but you really won't be able to catch all the players to the extent you are with a more linear and predictable system.
Hey, thanks for sharing your thoughts with other people. I've been learning gamedev for 2 years now, I started with small prototypes of hyper-casual games, and now I'm working on my own project on steam. So, i still feel like i'm a complete beginner, but looking on gamedev from different angles and working on different aspects by my own, like, 3d modeling in blender, coding on c#, trying to make shaders and textures, writing music,scenario and dialogues, result in loving game design and level design. And been someone who graduated in economics, and know absolutely nothing about programming, music and art, level design looks like something i can handle with. And yes, the most frustrating thing in level design - ammount of time you spent on level compare to play time. I was working on my very 1st level, and it took me like 4-5 week to go from concept to playable blockout and its only 15-20 min of play time. Anyway, you game looks amazing, keep it up!
Great work, nice future suggestion for the camera When walking through a door to another room it would be cool to add a animation where the camera swoops through the door way then angles back to the original position, maybe freeze the player movement for a second while the animation takes place, just a suggestion! Project looks great
The format of the video is fine, as long as there's viability in the content. No need for fancy editing and/or crazy bells and whistles. The insight is useful, and the points you bring up are worth consideration.
I'm thankfully not there yet (though my plans are for part-procedural anyway) ! However one thing I've noticed about games with good levels is the levels are usually pretty "focused". They will focus on a gimmick or on a few of the game mechanics or even on just a handful of situations that are interesting for some of the mechanics. They kind of "highlight" gameplay elements. Then later levels (somewhere around usually the last 1/3 or 1/4 of a game) will have more freedom and let you express that through mixing and matching gameplay mechanics. That's not an universal truth obviously, as any game that's mechanically "poor" (something like Hotline Miami would be to me the mechanically poor equivalent to your game's richness in this example) can't rely on that as much and must rely solely on interesting and gimmicky situations. But I feel you can have that type of progression and level building here.
I enjoyed a lot watching this video! I even searched for your game at Steam. So, I think, this video can be useful to you as a form of promoting your game. Your game S4H looks and feels awesome!
I am game developer as well, was working as game designer for almost 4 years now, I have same problem as you, I have some background in art, graphic design etc, I'm more of an programmer and I love making game mechanics, that being said I'm an absolute moron when it comes to level design, I have no idea how to start, what to do when I start, and how to decide whether this level is good to go. No matter how many projects I've done in the past, level design was also such a big topic, I was almost scared of it. Would love to see your journey from empty screen to complete level in your game, some sort of hour long tutorial. I identify with you so much, I truly hope you get grasp of this aspect of game dev, for both of our sake :D Good Luck, great content!
For the first "major" game I worked on (aside from freelance and studio work) -- I ended up taking on the role of level designer. Our game was a multiplayer-only arena-combat side-scroller. Our core mechanics were stupidly simple (not necessarily in a bad way) -- and at the time I felt like that was making it hard to design meaningfully different levels, the geometry and level layout just didn't really seem to make a big difference to how a map felt. I found that it became much easier to design interesting (or at least "unique") feeling levels if they each had a some element of dynamic movement or danger to keep the players from ignoring their positioning entirely, to have something to play around with besides just the level geometry. This is likely not an appropriate way to approach all games, but since our core mechanics were so dead simple, having more dynamic maps (moving/rotating platforms and hazards) really helped spice it up. Suddenly I was able to make a conveyor belt level with death traps and jump pads on some of the platforms -- or a rotating death field that kept players moving at all times, or a linear death field that kept them moving, or . . . Another linear death field that moved in a different direction. I'm still proud of how that all turned out -- even it if was all gimmicks to help keep the core mechanics interesting (it's appropriate in a platformer I think, not so much in the game you're building). I don't know where I'm going with this, it was frustrating for sure -- but you'll find that breakthrough and things will start flowing. For us the breakthrough was realizing we just needed to simplify the art and add dynamic elements to our game.
I've found that gaining a deep understanding of the task (level design), breaking it down to the smallest fudamental components, and then developing a step-by-step framework from your own knowedge base will mitigate most of the friction to accomplishing the task. Asking yourself how you can make this more enjoyable and modify your framework until it is will help reduce friction too.
As a level designer I can say: Level design is the ultimate crosspoint between Game design, code, art, production,... you name it we have it. And if it's named, odds are it's going to be an issue as some point. Voluntarily or not. Every. Little. Decision. Matters.
I relate to you so much! As a web developer, coming from art and UX design, level design is sooo much more harder to do.. And than, spending sooo much time, for a few minutes of gameplay to the player 😭 It's a crazy contrast.. Keep it up! Really love the level that you showcased, the indoor and the outdoor shipyard! ♥
I resonate with what you said about making linear levels. The systems and coding can be really straight forward in a lot of ways but level design is hard because you have to think about so many different things involving the game experience. You have to get in the mind state of the person who will be playing the game.. Really great video, it was like you were reading my mind!
Never made a game before so giving it a try and I can already tell level design is going to be hard. I'm making a space combat game (take a look at my short videos) and cant imagine how to design space missions.
Your game is good it’s like the the opposite of midnight fight express the fact that you’re sharing the journey of you creating it as I play it is something I never experienced before it adds something I can’t describe but it’s amazing and makes me like the game even more thank you
After a year and a half working alone on a 3D Photorealistic shop with product configurator for a client on Unreal Engine 5, I've decided to create my own game to see something else that Retail and Watch configurator and from the years I've gathered a tons of assets like Polygons Packs so why not making my own game, putting what I've learned on the path to something big and learn more in depth and globaly. But man... creating mechanics is easy AF... but creating an interesting level or map... DAMN ! Thats the only stuff that scares me. Doing a Luxury Watch Shop following a Brand Identity is one thing, creating a whole new world is something else. Your game looks sick man ! Congratulation ! And good luck for what comes next
Maaan, I _love_ level design. Yes, it's not easy, and there's a lot that needs to be considered. But it's _so_ satisfying. If you've got some cool mechanics and enemies, building levels to tie it all together is when the fun begins, imo. Give the player an objective to reach, and then put a bunch of obstacles in to overcome. Let the player know what to do and where to go but not what happens when they get there. Or what happens along the way. That's when you can really roll up your sleeves as a designer and try to make it interesting. Have them figure stuff out. Set up traps they can foresee and avoid, and feel smart for doing so. Some levels can be simple and straight forward, some can be non-linear and with a lot of back-and-forth. To keep things fresh, make each journey through already explored area different. Change something in the layout, throw different enemies in so player has to strategize/prioritize differently. Keep em on their toes, set expectations and then subvert them. I hate setting up the basic mechanics, and enemies, and weapons.. Give me a set of solid elements to build from like a box of lego and I'm happy re-arranging them in all sorts of ways to build new stuff. That's the real fun of game dev.
Oh wow, it's refreshing to see a dev talking so openly about their struggles. Everyone is always either "oh, it's all fine, it will be out soon!" or just keep it shut about everything. Making games is a pain sometimes, it's good to hear someone actually saying that out loud. I haven't had a lot of experience with level design yet. In my personal game I haven't had any issues with it because there isn't a lot of level design to it - it's basically an Angry Birds but with an arrow against an enemy army (like Bowmaster, for the browser gamers of old). Now I started working on Battle Royale/Brawler mobile game, and the little level design I did wasn't that intricate. My main experience with LD was last year when I decided to train LD by making a Doom level. Yeah, classic Doom. In my mind, LD has always been kinda... weird. As in, I knew a lot of theory, but I just had no structure at all to put it in practice. The good ol' "how do I start?", and all that. Then I've found a Gamasutra (IIRC) article about how to plan and design levels. A real step-by-step, which is what I desperately needed. So I picked Doom to practice that, and it turned out pretty fine, even though it took MUCH LONGER to finish than I anticipated. Planning of paper was fine, but when you try to put it in practice, and worse, when you get people to playtest it... there are so many things you realise you have to change to make it work! But still, I could make it work and it was gratifying. Unfortunatelly that was all I could do, now with a new job and a newborn to look after, I barely have time to breathe, let alone practice more LD. But I still want to try a couple other concepts in Doom: a multiplayer arena like Overwatch, and a more Doom-like level, with less linear navigation and more verticality. Someday. Anyway, that's worked out to me. And if you keep threading down that path, I hope you also find what makes it click for you!
great video! I was very surprised to see the level design pipeline in here made by Timo, a fellow game design student. He really knows his stuff! Good luck on making the game, it looks great.
I think you're on the right track and taking time to stamp out all the mechanics is crucial. In my experience, trying to design an environment that complements game mechanics that are not 100% fleshed out is painful. In that kind of scenario, the designer is effectively working blind and even worse, wasting time. Modular tools are excellent and really do save time! Motivation is also essential, obviously. When things aren't going according to your vision or plan, it can be demoralizing, to say the least. Project deadlines notwithstanding, remember it is okay to take a break.
One thing that’s always bothered me is the fact that when I go to sleep at night I’ll often see hyper detailed environments and worlds in my dreams. Often times I’m aware that what I’m seeing is a game and the environment matches exactly what is required of that game. The fact my brain can literally create something of such immense detail and scale that it would take a AAA team with thousands of devs years to create, and knowing that I have that capability but just can’t access it while awake as I try to design even the most basic map will always hurt. Between game environments and irl visual data, we all sit on enough reference material to generate any environment we want for any purpose in virtually Infinite detail but the thoughts just don’t connect that way outside of a dreamlike state and so we struggle.
It’s very interesting hearing this side of the spectrum. I personally freaking love doing level design. I only do it through other game engines for modding in pre-built tools, but it’s interesting hearing why you don’t like it. Great video!
I'm a Unity developer, I will suggest this to help you with level design stall as I call it. 1. If you are familiar with using noise to produce randomized effects you can do a simple 2d project. First break down your current assets to their most basic relevance. Doors, floor, water, window, w/e. Then color code them. Apply logic to the tiles so if white tile needs red on two opposite sides and red need red or blue and so on. Next assign these colors with names for the basic stuff and build a generate function. Finally if you want to get fancy change the shape of the spawning of the tiles to circular, rectangular, etc. Also you should have an easy way to increase the area of the tiles spawning. After that use that generate the procedural bp and then follow along on your 3d project. After doing this then go in and do actual level design work to make it so the player more intuitively knows the lines they can follow for your expected results. 2. Make some template levels, just throw away levels you don't care about. Then apply the assets you want for the look you want to the template. These are the two things I use to help with development time. I am mainly a coder so I apply the logic of getting it done first then coming back and optimizing it later. ~ Good luck
Those animations are juicy af, would you mind making a video talking about how these are made? Specifically your overall animation process + how the interaction between the player & enemy animations works
I like level design. Its fun to sit there and throw on some music and find the vibe of the level. Like what feelings do you want the level to inspire. Is there a corridor or not? How can I make it more aesthetic while also achieving any beats that have to happen as well. Its an art form that I enjoy. Is there an opening with a big boss fight or several henchmen? Is there a resting place to collect yourself before going through the next gauntlet. Working backwards helps a lot too.
what is it with modern indie game developers and just having no clue of how to approach learning level design for 3d games? this just feeds into my theory that the way modern indie developers teach themselves is not good enough when compared to something like modding
I don't think modding is necessary to build up skills for level design (or game development in general). This project allowed me to push myself on the level design side and I've learned tons from it. I think your theory is 100% wrong and a big assumption, but to each their own.
@@FirstCrimson maybe not for the mechanical/systemic side of things, i know especially since most engines tend to do things differently on a technical basis. but not design-wise? you don't think being able to open and break down a level from a game of your choosing would help your design skills more than just guessing it? GDC talks and video essays from people like GMTK will only get you so far in this regard. it's the lack of modding support for most modern video games that therefore don't allow this process of learning by studying other's work that i feel is missing from modern indie game development. It ends up creating a vacuum in dev's learning opportunity that is only otherwise filled by direct practice, and even that is an issue, because how the hell do you practice level design without making a whole game's systems and mechanics first? and hey, even if you're still skeptic, there's a guy on yt by the name of Steve Lee, he's a professional level designer who worked on arkane while they were developing Dishonored 2, in fact you might know him from the talk he did on Holistic level design a while back. Recently he started teaching designers on his channel. What's interesting is that instead of using a modern game engine like unity or unreal, he decided to go back to Source. Because by modding half life 2 he can use all of it's content and core mechanics, in order to focus on practicing and teaching modern desgin principles. this is all to say that even though i agree that your specific case maybe doesn't fit in, you have to realize that so many developers would have a much easier time understanding how level design works if you could focus on learning it by itself for a couple of months without having to learn how to build an entire game first. anyway, i should've probably made my first comment a little more nuanced since now i realized i have to explain a good chunk of it. either way, i'd just like to say that i really enjoyed your game, i'm glad you were able to deal with your level design struggles, but in my point of view, i think when you keep saying to yourself that as soon as this one is done you'll never do linear levels by hand again, but to me that just seems like a cope because of how much of a struggle it must've been so far, and you would likely make more games with similar design in the future if you just had a better learning experience. It just shocks me every time a devlog youtuber says something to the effect of "i have no clue how to level design" and this is my reasoning why. at the end of the day, i think there is a core part of learning new skills that is missing, being able to break things apart on our own at the end of the day is how we learn best, and i'm not sure the alternative's are quite enough for a lot of people. well anyway that's my bit. thanks for coming to my GDC talk
@@defectivenull I can see your point of view in terms of pre-existing game mechanics already being there, for sure can understand that. But I wouldn't disregard other ways of learning if that entails coming up with a developers' own game mechanics, etc. which can allow their skills to be pushed further. At the end of the day, if people are learning the fundamentals then I don't see an issue with level designing ones' own game. I've definitely seen Steve Lee, been looking at his videos the past few days and they've been helpful. That being said, I'd like to note that sometimes I do over-exaggerate things and I imagine other YTers do the same in terms of me saying "I have no clue how to level design", etc. I've obviously learned a lot in the past year and have gotten better at the overall level design workflow. Appreciate the comment, I think I could add more to my comment but it's a pretty extensive topic.
100% agreed. Level design is not only hard...It's the HARDEST part of game designing, for sure. I've been working on a third-person shooter for ages and my nemesis is Level design (For environment concepts, I'm using AI to speed up my process. Oh, boy, how I wish there is an advanced AI to help us to plan levels and test them on the fly before human playing test...). Your game looks so cool!
@@hate3333 Hey, thanks for your help! Really appreciated. It's pretty hard to explain because it's about a third-person shooter level and its balance. But I'll try. The mechanics: I'm using unreal 4 and TPS Kit with some customization, and right now I'm replacing the last animations to improve the gunplay speed. (Kane and Lynch 2 gameplay style, but the player can roll, vault, climb, and has a special bullet time as Michael on GTAV). One of the problems: I'm facing problems with enemy encounters/matches. Had the same problem as Suit for Hire dev. My game is a linear single player and the player could "clean" an area in two minutes, give or take. It's been demanding a huge amount of time to create the levels, so I'm trying to create a new way to approach it: a larger map where the player/"spy" can investigate the area and activate encounters/matches according to their capacity to find hints. The problem is, larger maps are harder to manage and the player can think it's boring to see the same level because these levels aren't that large. "Missions" would be activated according to the player's findings, it was my answer to reutilize a level and progress the story, but... Geez, it's been hard to manage...
@@Amelia_PC I apologize in advance if I did not fully understand your problem (correct me ) You can make a list of missions that will be supplemented as the map is explored and the player meets the NPC who gives it. This will allow the player to safely explore the map without losing interest in it. You can also diversify your game in this way by arranging NPCs of different difficulty levels not in a linear order, but randomly, which will allow the player to try to win the match earlier than expected (being lower level), however, since it will be more difficult for him, if he manages it, he needs to will somehow reward him, if he fails after many attempts, he will simply continue to explore the map in search of a less difficult opponent to level up. And since all visited NPCs will be saved in the list of missions, this will allow the player not to run through this level, but simply to launch the mission from the list (teleport). You can also add just a teleport to locations (by missions) So that the player can quickly move to already visited places / NPCs (you can implement it in different ways depending on your universe). You can also make hidden missions hidden on the map, which will force the player to run around the map :)
@@hate3333 Oooooh man! Good point! A teleport system! I completely forgot about it because my game is a contemporary crime shooter then my stupid brain blocked the "sci-fi stuff" theme. When doing a quick cutscene, I can hide the teleport. Thanks for your help!
@Amelia PC So you can realize your TP as you wish - depens on your universe and genre . If it`s sci-fi you can just place a portal points and give yo your char an item ( lets call it portal button ) also you can give it to him like a reward after killing some NPC - or maby after player will exlore some % of map . If the technology in your universe have no teleport you can use a taxi or another transport ( like in GTA :P ) or just insta travel by legs :DDD ( with some timer or maby animated way on the map ( like in Fallout )
Another amazing video. I never really thought much about the tool development that you mention in this one quite a bit. I'll have to do some searching around because you seem to have quite a few of them in there and they seem to be tremendously helpful.
I feel that my level design phase is going to take years, especially considering I'm still figuring out what elements to put in the levels and how. And I'm terrified that I'll never get it done. Also it's a 2D Platformer and the levels are going to have two states with slight differences depending on whether you've completed the level before based on the concept of exploiting a spacetime anomaly for resources... which just makes it feel a lot more daunting. Oh, and I'm mainly a programmer. EDIT: Guess this is why John Romero said he made the first level last.
Level Design is so fascinating to me. I spent so much of my time as a kid on the Warcraft 3 Map editor and the Hammer editor. I feel like it's much easier for me to grasp the placement and purpose of things than any other aspect of game creation.
Crimson, I really hope you read this. Please take ALL the time you need to make sure the level design is excellent. Don't feel the need to cave and just say "That'll do." You've got a great game and like you said, level design is about 80% of this game. PLEASE don't give in to your frustration, while valid, your fans will praise you more for a well designed level. Thank you for making this game.
“the cathedral has a catacombs section, I was even able to use some of the candles I made for Blades of *Ortera?* so it’s funny taking all these things I put into a grave...” …There’s untapped pun potential right there…
Im starting a project and while researching for interesting top down shooting mechanics, I stomp upon your work and gotta say it's fcking inspiring and unique.
A few things...I have been watching your streams, and although my twitcherfication level is low, I do enjoy myself whilst watching. Now then, onto my numbered list. 1) delegate. 2) escalation. 3) item crunch. 4) level types. 1) If you delegate, you are now a pro developer; only appearing to shout at people and bark orders at them: congrats :) 2) Your comments on linear progression can simply be (mostly) fixed by using escalation. So, think of large multi-story building, each floor has some goons of varying skills and mini-bosses with varying weapons and ranges. Put this $hit into a table Each floor of the building gets increasingly harder, with the top floor having the 'big bad boss' and an item of importance, like a bonus award time completion medal. The thing is, I know that you know this and just do not understand why your levels should be much more harder to design than structuring the 'floors' of each level by using a simple data table at the concept stage, because level design is not just level design at the linear scale. Once you have a table, you are putting a restriction on the geometry of the level. The levels are (if you think about it) being designed by increasing/decreasing/adjusting the data table containing the quantities of each enemy type. Another element of level design is (as you know) surprising the player, something which does not appear to exist in your game. So, the player expects a door to open when they throw a switch, it does; but the door behind them also opens and more enemies appear! doubling the outcome - placing the player in an immediate danger, making demands on their skill levels! 3) how much ammo should you add to the Environment? Health? how about enemies and enemy types? You need item crunch to solve this, but how? Simple: when testing, make it so the player cannot be killed or run out of ammo yet, record the numbers at key points. So...if you (figuratively) had a level that was a long, narrow corridor, interspersed with doors to block progress, then once you get to the end, you will have a total of ammo USED and the total amount of health LOST. From this, the level designer will know:- How much ammo is needed per section of the corridor How much health is lost per section of the corridor How difficult the level is per section How long it takes to progress per section of the corridor. These are KEY to how the game feels to play. Another example would be "R-Type"; goons, mini-bosses, bosses, pickups, health - you start at one end and have to get to the other. How would you design such a level? How would an R-Type level be designed? Which direction would the ships come from? Just add time counters, asset counters (FNameAsset counters, how many timesa an asset was loaded/referenced and then, unloaded/unreferenced once used) and print a json into a table somewhere, compare and contrast amongst those who are testing. Also, although you can design a level yourself and test it, in truth the best person to give feedback is someone who plays it all the way through for the first time, because their first reaction is typically the most accurate. Woods and trees spring to mind. 4) Level types. The direction of the game does not appear to have areas where the enemies are entrenched...they all seem to want to just run at the player with knowledge they should not have and, without care to outcome. Enemies should have more types of behaviour, because with having ALL enemies seemingly acting in very similar ways, the levels feel like a Gauntlet. What I'm saying (however hurtful it might seem - and I assure you that is not the intent♥) is the level might as well be long corridors, with bosses, mini-bosses all standing in a straight line and the player skill is determined by tip-toeing forward until an enemy is 'triggered' and clicking the mouse in their direction...so...just timing, really. In other words...having buttons to push and doors to open and things to move out of the way of feels meaningless, if all we are going to do is tap-tap-tap in a predictable sequence, in fact, I would even go so far as to say the 'obstacles' become (mildly) annoying and just...'in the way'. You've told the player the objective is to get to the end of the level...so to prioritise other elements in absence of variety of goal acquisition, is like gloating about your k/d ratio as you lose the match. You even said it yourself, kinda, by people saying the game can be finished quickly, it can. In short, I think you are focusing on the wrong elements of level design instead of basic gameplay and escalation - as a result, you are finding the levels take far too long to build.
When you see negative reviews for your game, don't let it get you down. Simply making and releasing a game at all is a big achievement in and of itself, something most people cannot say they've done, something nobody can take away from you.
I do enjoy level design to some extent, it feels nice figuring out how to work with what the AI can do to create a fun experience, where they are interesting to interact with rather than a boring easy or overbearing experience. Good level design and AI design working together in harmony creates great games.
so for the camera clipping, ive created a material for my top down shooter, that uses a sphere maske to De-render static meshes that pass between player and camera using a line trace could be helpful
Level design I can agree is hell (my approach is that of narrative design as the groundwork for everything and the description of your brain blocking you is something I fully agree with) The current game I'm working on is a third person story driven game with the levels being effectively contained sandboxes in an open world that the player can enter at a ton of angles and leave at any angle (the general gameplay loops is framed as stealth in a normal house environment for the level sandboxes) to drop in find evidence and escape without getting caught until you get enough to convict (I will note that the story does force the player to return to these locations multiple times to find everything (after enough evidence is found it switches to combat starting incredibly easy but ramping up the difficulty overtime
Yes, liner levels are challenging but to me how to create remember moments in liner levels is to set up areas to a game mechanic like giving the player different ways to take down the enemies. So, for example, you can set 5 enemies in the area one of the enemies has it back towards the player assassinated him and other enemies move area feely or you can shoot him right away and the other enemies go gun blasting or take one of the enemies hostages make him a shield. To me, if you give the player a lot of choices on how to take down enemies in cool way players will remember the moment. This game looks awesome can't wait to play the full version.
It's a running joke in my group of dev friends that level design is both the most important and hardest part of game dev. We rely on block-out tools like RealtimeCSG (it's a unity tool) which does speed things up but it's still a slog. "Ugh, I can't be bothered with level design, time for feature creep" is our go-to phrase.
I came across this page while currently going through level design and could not agree more, I am 2 years in with my game and what a bottle neck it is compared to programming and Blueprints, Amen!
Once I really started to get into making levels I was blown away at how much time you can spend. Just populating a table can take time. Now do and entire neighborhood, only for the player to blast through it with out even looking at that table...
Lots of comments, so maybe someone else already said this: Have you considered using procgen levels, but then capturing the seeds of the levels you think would work for your campaign mode, so that they are "tailored to the experience", but you got them initially by procgen. You can also do an 80% method, where you get a level thats pretty good for a campaign section, and then just fix up the problems to make it fit better. Or doing copy-paste for sections of procgen that work well, to put them together I haven't played the game, but looking at the gameplay it seems the levels are mostly about your open space and obstacles feeling right for the current situation with regard to visibility, and this is something using some editing from procgen might get you going faster on. So boutique results, but without the grind to totally manual level layout.
In fact, the more tools you do, the more you'll get a better flow. As a solo dev it is the most important way to help you out along the way, you can't be perfect in all area of a game development, but with dedication and time you'll get there. In the end, you have to like what you do, so that's what will keep pushes you forward. Your game looks incredible, tho, it's just a matter of time developing these tools to fasten your development. You should be proud of what you already have done, keep working on small steps at the time and you'll get where you are supposed to be.
A lot of short games have a "simple" side mode that fills the game up a bit. Most of the time its a wave based survival gamemode, it gives endless content and a lot of people look at it like endless content even tho its really not. Its a simple enough trick to even out the post game content.
I feel you! I started by doing some 3D modelling but decided the fastest way to enter game development was through programming so I studied Computer Science but never totally left behind 3d, some fundamentals of animation and I been giving serious steps on narrative design, story writing, etc. but when I try level design... oh, God... my designs are soooo lame or so easy to break or so extremely complex or lacking any kind of "interconnected logic" that on every attempt to "solo" a game I end by having some good mechanics but I am unable to create a place where everything happen. The only time I've been mild satisfied has been creating procedural generators that create the levels for me.
I've only done a little bit of game dev and level design is definitely something I want to do more of with the challenge of working out this puzzle of each area and needing it to fit with the overall game pacing
You gave me a fright at 07:11. I'm never going to get used to my face randomly appearing in youtube searches. I am 100% with you on level design. It feels like such a personal bottleneck. For something that seems so simple, it has a sea of topics from game flow to affordance, saliency to critical paths, It's exhausting. It doesn't help there is definitely a dearth of content on the subject.
It can be over whelming at times but break it down into smaller areas write down what area the level will consist of and assets that would be in those areas do one spot at a time worry about optimization and lighting towards the end
I really enjoy level design, its something I've been confident at doing for as long as I can remember. My issue as a newer developer is that I am trying like hell to learn what unreal engine has to offer and learn the ins and outs of blueprints.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Each bit of abstraction in objects that is increased exponentially increases the amount of work that must be done to complete a game...usually. There are some exceptions when dealing with...you know what, never mind, that's irrellevant...but the point is... We can take just graphics alone as the example. 2D game: Just draw one side of an object. It can collide on (usually) 4 sides as 2D games tend to be grid based. Not always, but generally, at least graphically. Even if vectors define the edges of objects to create a more natural look, ultimately, you only have to provide one view of each thing. Furthermore, you don't have to provide a whole lot in terms of definition of the graphics to collisions. Either they're going to do something when overlapping on a 2d plane with something else or they are not. 3D game: Take that one side and now you have to not only draw it from 6 different directions, but each direction is a different shape, i.e. a 3d model. Already we've increased the workload of the artists 5 fold. But then we have to start thinking about things that aren't required for 2D games as much as 3D (which is 3D's own 90's propaganda fault...but I digress), like...dynamic lighting and whether it looks good with certain rendering settings. And now even simple 2D textures have multiple 'layers' which need to be created in order to 'finalize' the single side of the object, something that's irrelevant in 2D because 2D is like South Park animation at it's heart. Using that last bit, notice how many 2D cartoons there are that get produced on a weekly basis, even non hand-drawn ones, vs. 3D... That should tell you everything. So ultimately...I'd say, forget 3D. It's aesthetics aren't worth the work if your end result is still a 2D game. Just go 2D, draw cool stuff and be done. 3D sells graphics cards, gameplay sells games.
I'm a solo dev and struggle with the grasping the same concept, so much so that I haven't really bothered to make complex or proper maps and opt for a simpler sandbox style, but this is not a necessarily good thing for the games I want to make. Honestly at a certain point it's about letting go of making "perfect" levels, and compromising. Understand the strengths and weaknesses of your game and your abilities and honestly running with it. Sure, I can spend a whole month trying to do pre-production, prototyping, testing, redesigning and all of that but it's a good lesson of finding what's good enough for your gameplay, since like you said, content can be a real issue. On the complete flipside, maybe it says something about trying to do too much with your core gameplay and mechanics, sacrificing the time you have from making good enough maps. So understand what you are good at and not, lean into it, but be honest with yourself if you lean into too much without support. Maybe shift the pacing of the core gameplay loop in some way that fits your level design skillset better, understanding that longer pacing usually necessitates better design but that might be preferable to making a higher quantity of varied maps instead. You can also think of the pacing in terms of the individual *parts* of each level, since not every area is weighted equally in terms of gameplay or narrative importance so you can be messy with it and people won't care as the most important part is still the most polished and *therefore* the most memorable. People generally don't remember 100% of any map for a reason, so use that knowledge to your advantage to save yourself some over-designing stress. TBH I'm kind of making this up as I go since I lack experience but I do understand what how map design contributes to how memorable certain maps or gameplay moments are to me in different games. It's also a bit of understanding that you will see more problems than your average player, which isn't cause to be naiive, sneaky or lazy but a way to increase awareness of how you might over-value and over-design anything.
Added example: Risk of Rain 2. The way the levels are designed in mind with the pacing and the assets they have available works incredibly well. The maps are simple, even arguably unimportant in terms of layout due to the way the game plays and how the environment isn't always an important factor for every character. They use small gimmicks here and there on certain maps or with certain maps more than others to increase variety without making the level design too much more demanding (if anything it makes it more flexible). The game has a lot of assets but I'd say a lot of them are reused or frankly unimportant, and a lot of the *tone* of a level is defined by it's atmosphere through vfx, music, enemy variety, or pacing (such as that one level with the harpies and the machine god they worship spawning, which fights like any other boss but the spawn behavior is unique to this level and rewards a guaranteed legendary item). Also, the game design obviously necessitates and supports replayability due to being a roguelike, and so I think the focus is less on the layout of the map being strictly perfect but more about making them kind of flexible and less over-designed to increase freedom of movement, which burns the player out less *plus* makes the maps easier to design alongside the random spawn locations for interactables. If you think you need a good map of X variety because of it adding Y value to your game, consider how you might be able to add that value through another medium, such as that same roguelike-nature of randomly spawning interactables giving the value of replayability to Risk of Rain 2's levels without trying to make the map itself so porous or have so many choices.
Personally, as a recent grad I love level design and it's my fav part of development. I love guiding the player through maps and having that hidden connection with them where I can make them act or feel when designing a level. It's hard when something doesn't work out as planned sure but I find level design to be super rewarding.
This is exactly what is happening with me. Almost a month just passed and I'm still figuring out the height and width of walls. I'm just a beginner so I should not complain this much but I think art and design for me is just pain
Level design is how you bridge the gap between the game mechanics and player. It's a lot harder than just putting shit down on a map. It's something I'm still struggling with a LOT.
you could always delegate and have someone who loves doing level design do just that mainly, and all you have to do is play the level, giving your input if there needs be for changes, and approve it.
This cost money and im sure thats one of the main reasons he doesnt have another one. Now you could say, but there are people which do it for free and yeah you absolutly right... The problem is then the motiviation, you mostly loose them soon and with them the knowledge and all progress. No hate against your comment, i wished i could just find designers for free, but to keep motiviation in persons is either not possible depending on the personality or mostly hard (edge cases always exist).
@@trustnooneelse Everything Cost Money, and that's why you delegate and designate One Team member (that loves and or best amongst you to) do just that, Level Design (in the long run it saves you money time). If one has a 5 man crew even 4 is feesable. Knowledge and Progress wouldn't be lost, all you need to do is reference back to the White Boxing stages of the levels and any notes pertaining to those levels, if you didn't kept or save these, then one has poor basic project management skills.
@@trustnooneelse Time costs money. The idea that your time is somehow free is baffling to me. You can have good levels for 1000 hours of your time learning it, struggling with it and so on, or you can hire someone who will do it in 50 hours. ... the question is: Is it more economical to spend 1000 hours on DYI or to spend 1000 hours on the ability to pay the other one, while honing the skills that you actually want to use?
Or, an alternative view: There are three persons. One is great modeller, one is great with audio and one is great with code. They can either make 1 game each (so three games in total), or they can spend the same time on three games they'll make together.
Which one will produce better games => potentially more money to sustain their careers? Which one will give them tools to make much more advanced games in the future?
Definitely a worthwhile topic that could be covered in a video all on its own- but I think one of the biggest challenges is finding developer(s) who can get the work done properly without needing a ton of micromanagement whilst also getting paid a proper amount. Unfortunately I don't necessarily have a ton of funds to pay developers a proper amount (all of our current developers are on rev-share which is of course a gamble for all developers involved).
Of course on the flipside, I'm sure I'll get tons of replies such as "time is an investment/it equals man hours, etc.", and yes, I 100% agree that me investing time to develop the levels myself is in fact me investing money no matter what- honestly, this entire topic could be covered in one long video as there's quite a few points there (and counter points as well that I'm well aware of).
We've got a level designer though that I trust and am giving time and patience to so he can improve and get levels going, with enough time we'll be completing levels at a faster pace.
Appreciate the comments from everyone involved in the thread.
@@FirstCrimson Think of any task. Hobbyists can't do it. Juniors can't do it. Not to the level of quality at your standard as the executor of vision. The only immediate option an indie dev has is to do it themselves or accept the subpar outcome; if they're talented at networking they might be able to find someone to partner with on the subject they struggle with. I've lived that life starting my own studio. When you can afford it, be stringent in your hiring and interviewing process; interview at least 20 people and step away if you aren't happy with your candidates. Save the future you, but don't be afraid to fail; we all do. It's what you do with that failure and how you learn from it that defines you, and you've shown that with your tooling approach; these can be documented and taught to people who join your projects.
This style of video is enjoyable, just hearing someones thoughts on a part of game development is interesting in itself
> This style of video is enjoyable
>> I enjoy this style of video
Learn2speak.
Just no point, full of rubbish.
For a creative professional, it always seems hard to justify pouring so much time into something that others will only see or experience for a brief moment. However, with this. It is an artwork. There's not just one person spending 20 minutes playing the level, but potentially thousands of people playing it. You get to be the one setting the experience for so many people. So I think that could be helpful to justify it.
crimson:- level design is hard
me:- yes i am scared
also crimson:- level design is very challenging part of gamedev
me:- i am gonna do hard challenging things first because "if this is hard very less people will do this"
As a programmer, venturing in my free time into Unity, I enjoyed this down to earth, boots in the trenches feedback video
I just wanted to say, I really appreciated the realness and candor of this video. It felt very genuine.
Hoping to provide more honest perspectives into game development as I move forward with RUclips videos, I'm glad people are enjoying it though.
Hey no way, I play your game all the time! It’s so good, I had no idea you had a channel
I feel that so hard, in a different way. I have an endless appreciation for good level design, I love when level design works, and I love chiseling away at a level so it flows better, but the blank canvas stage when you're just shuffling blocks around to see if something *works* is always miserable.
In my experience every time when i was bored from level design, it was because i was designing boring levels.
In that case you need to find some ideas for the level that you are really excited about to see ingame. Idk you cant be bored when you design something awesome? Doesnt matter if its levels, music or code
Great video, it’s always good to hear the struggles (as long as it’s not just complaining). Also, I don’t normally play games like yours, but as soon as I saw that door get kicked in, I’m interested! Keep going!
Cheers! (speaking of the door being kicked down, there's tons of improvements I want to make with our door system, hopefully I'll be able to work on it soon™...)
Just as an encouragement I bought your game AND I subscribed to your channel. Keep up the good work!
I absolutely hated level design when making my FPS. My biggest takeaways going forward are.
1. Start it early, oh god doing nothing but level design for 2 months killed me. And you learn valuable things about your game when making levels.
Anything you can do to reduce your time making levels is extremely helpful. this includes.
2. Do as much "Level Design" before "Level Construction" starts, so you don't have to spend time thinking about things and can just place blocks quickly.
2.1. think of an interesting idea/design goal/set pieces/enemy interactions before you start constructing the level, that way the creation becomes a more fun process of enabling that thing and solving interesting design problems via level creation, rather than just level creation.
2.2. Paper prototype your levels, this is quick and fun, and reduces time while doing the horrible level creation.
3. consider what works and what doesn't work in levels early, keep track of it and use that to prevent repeating mistakes and having to redo them. (also test things like figuring out what size doors work well, what wall heights work well for different things etc)
4. find or make tools that speed up level creation. if somethings taken a while on one level, think 'can this be sped up for my future levels'
5. (not sure if applicable to games with higher quality standards than my game) try to think - what's the bare minimum I need to do to have a "complete" version of this level, and try to pace through doing all of that as fast as you can. more in depth polish/quality can happen later after some level playtesting.
Out of those I only did 2.2, 4 and 5.
I was lucky enough to have a friend who'd made about 10 level outlines, and I could just implement the gameplay and tweak them. and after spending 2 weeks on the first level, I was able to power through about a level every 3 days finishing 20 levels (with some pretty hefty reuse) in 2 months and could literally not think for the next whole month due to burnout (I wouldn't recommend this lol)
Most of the levels are surprisingly good with that schedule. one of them sucks, but I've not been able to bring myself to redo it even after 7 months of shame.
In the future I want to experiment with making procedural level systems, and using them to create parts of a semi hand crafted linear/semi linear levels.
Keep your head up man. You're putting in the work and it shows. I get the frustration! Liked the video a lot. Looking forward to the next one!
Your levels look soo good in layout and graphics
Happy to see you here buddy!
@@mickaelmorgado Hello
I'm not sure if I can really articulate what I want to say but here goes. When I think about level design I think about how all the other parts would fit together and what kind of experience that would feel like to the player. So if we take your john wick like character who travels fast and can eleminate enemies even quicker it poses the problem as you said of players just flying by all this hard work that was put into the linear levels you've laid out.
As a player I would want to have a high rush of constant enemies around every corner to really feel like I'm the character I'm playing. So, I think about how can I give the player this experience while also making levels less expensive to make? Linear levels don't have to go away completely but they can be shrunken down dramatically to almost arena type areas linked together where you enter a room and are met with wave apon wave of enemies that pop out of all kinds of doors, windows, and angles. After the slug fest has come to a stop it gives a good downtime to walk to and enter the next arena and have it all start again. These arenas can be almost any size, but the key is to have lots of options for enemies to flank you and each wave will randomise where they come from, maybe even spawning some unique oppensets that require more attention from the player.
The player gets to keep the almost constant rush of enemies to fight while staying in one area for an extended amount of time making all the art/design work of that area used effectively. Atleast that's my theory, hope that helps! :)
i understand that there are layers to creating a level, on top of seeing those reviews is very demoralizing but this is only the beginning and some people fail to see that. I’ve been enjoying suit for hire and even convinced 2 of my friends to play it, we are all excited for the next update!
it is incredibly difficult. I mostly get another guy on the team to block out the floor plan, then I fill out the level with the different paths, geometry, enemy spawners, interactions etc, and then pass it off to the artist who refines stuff and replaces the raw geometry with actual assets the art team works on. One segment can potentially days or even a couple weeks of work to fully block it out until it feels right.
I just want to say how great your game looks.
I just started doing level design. I appreciate you sharing this video because I started feeling the same way frustrated with level design, but grinding along learning to do it better and faster.
I completely agree. Currently working on a super simple puzzle-platformer and after 20 levels I am stuck. Every other aspect is complete and I would love to release it, but I know it needs more levels and I am not creative enough to make them.
It's always nice to hear another perspective. 90% of my game is just me trying to get to the level design part which I love
Just found your video and loved the enviroments and level designs you and your team created, awesome!
1) The level editor you're working with has too many knobs, bells, whistles and is basically bloatware.
2) You could try instead (not on this project, but in future projects) procedural generation of levels.
3) It might be that there's a better way to organize everything.
4) You may be striving too much for absolute perfection.
The way I'd do level design looking at this particular game, is look at where the patterns are you have and procedurally generate interlocking blocks through code, then procedurally generate the enemies.
I'd also make sure to have your hierarchy have very strict rules for how it's organized to keep it very neat.
Levels for me have strict parents, a strict hierarchy: Props, Lights, Cameras, Actors, Waypoints. it's worth it to take extra time to actually name and re-name and re-name. It's incredibly tedious and very boring work, but it's worth it. In my opinion, a great way of working is to be able to find anything in your level instantly by really thinking hard about naming conventions.
Appreciate the comments from everyone and their insight!
Even if I haven't responded, I am/have been reading all of the comments.
For those curious, I'm still putting my all into level design/environment art and improving my skills associated with it, I'm sure many people have noticed the improvements in design, intention, and overall look/graphics in the newer levels for Suit for Hire. Even though I may dislike level design and feel like I'm going at snails pace, I'm doing my best to take note of my flaws and what can be improved to make the game a more enjoyable experience.
Feel free to wishlist or purchase the game on Steam if you're interested: store.steampowered.com/app/1612420/Suit_for_Hire/
I've been making games for a few years now, but I started doing 3D art like 17 years ago. When I first got my game dev job, I was hired as a "Environment artist" but since that time I have found myself constantly doing animation, character design, writing, texture work, switching rapidly between blender, substance painter, UE4/5 and or Unity along with the topic at hand, level design.
Level design to me has always been a real joy to do. The idea of telling a story in the level about something that has nothing to do with the game, but rather the world it is inside of just screams "fun" to me. Leaving hints about events that took place, but you are not a part of, to me says that there is more to the world you are in, than just what you are witness to.
Appreciate your insight and perspective, definitely need to find more enjoyment in the 'story-telling' part of level design, we'll see as I continue working on it.
Finally someone understand the true concept of level design 🥲🥲🥲🥲 Im soo happy right now....
Level design is inherently a conversation between the designer and the player. The dialog is critical from moment to moment. You say what needs to be said, with flourishes that fit the topic. Sometimes you get sidetracked about things that don't matter, but other times your players will have a critical suggestion that can decide some massive things.
I was working on a HL2 mod for a long time, and the most I ever learned about level design was after doing a round of playtesting with outside parties. I had this big idea for a non-linear space and had thrown together stuff in service of the idea, but there was lots of wasted space. Once I saw playtests and got some feedback, I could tie stuff together a lot better.
I had a big beach that basically served no purpose, and the player basically just passed over it and there's basically only a couple enemies there at all, and only one way off it. After a couple rounds of playtesting, the beach became the hub between three lanes of the map that connected at different points and worked together to get the player to fight the AI naturally throughout the space and find their way to the critical objective in an unobtrusive way. Signposting of puzzle elements was also a very in-depth process, the lighting, choice of signposting, enemy placement all needed to work cohesively. I won't say that the level came out perfectly, but I was having a blast playing it for a long time, so I figured I did something right. Sadly it isn't out yet, and I'm not sure when it will be because I'm trying to learn Unreal so I can make something that can actually turn me a profit.
But if I had a point to this little story, I really loved adding little details for myself. There's a few bodies on the beach from a totally abandoned story thread for the mod that stayed there through to the present version, and hiding secrets in places was also lots of fun. But the most fun way to design levels is to indulge in some light trolling of the player. Enough to put them under pressure, but not enough to instantly kill them and cause frustration. Having a couple of seconds to sprint out of the way when a gun turret springs to life, or suddenly being set upon from above by some asshole on a rappel with a shotgun literally called "this asshole" as the entity name. The trolling gives the space character and builds some memorable moments in the player's mind, or at least in mine.
As for my more relevant advice to the creator of this video (and at the risk of tipping my hand to a very similar game I'm working on)- you have a really nice set of mechanics that flow together fluidly. Think of ways to break it up a bit instead of just load zones- the player needs a bit of room to breathe and reset, and you can use the down-time for story moments. Maybe sneaking around outside of a house, while the voyeuristic top-down camera catches people talking about something funny or relevant on the inside. Use the height perspective to foreshadow something later- maybe you'll see a sniper team moving across the roofs that you'll have to fight later in the foreground as you move in the background. I'd try and play with the perspective as much as possible if I were you- the pulled out camera perspective gives you the freedom to do things a bit differently than something like Max Payne or another third person game of that type. You aren't as much of a slave to the player's perspective because they don't have sole control of where they are looking. Use that. Best of luck, I'm wishlisting the hell out of this game and I hope you succeed!
Also, how the hell did you pull off that witchcraft of grabbing enemy guns in the offhand and transferring between weapons so fluidly??? That looks so badass. You've clearly done your homework on John Wick.
I like so much you being open and talk about what part of game dev is difficult in your case. Some how the video inspire me to continue in my endevor to learn UE5. Thanks!
Hey man I love your content. I am an architect and I think It would be helpful to first come up w a detailed floor plan showing circulation/ enemy locations/ important checkpoints.
Once you have a detailed plan, you can 3D model it on Rhino 3D which would be 100X easier than Unreal Engine modeling. Once modeling simple elements like walls/ structure you would just have to export everything and add materials, furniture, textures, etc.
I can see how you hate level design if you're doing it on Unreal Engine, it must be so annoying and difficult. Awesome work man, I really enjoy your videos and seeing how these spaces come along into something playable.
Form follows function.
First time watching your videos. I have to say, coming from other channels, I enjoyed the "stream of consciousness" format. It felt very honest and personal, and I felt like I learned a lot about your process and view. It didn't come across as rambling or unfocused at all. This format may not work for every video, but I definitely did enjoy it!
I can relate to this very much. Appreciate the video and the streams Crim!
Don't beat yourself up too much mate - this is a massive undertaking and you've already produced a ton of content. Given your gamestyle, it's probably a lot harder to test and iterate your maps compared to something like a basic multiplayer FPS game. It looks awesome - keep at it.
Level design is hard but it is harder when you approach it with a mechanical approach and not a creative one. Example, when I make an environment everything has some kind of "story" to it, whether the thing I am making is directly a part of an actual single player story, an FPS multiplayer map, or just a portfolio piece. That has always helped me put something together that is engaging for the player.
exact. this is one of the rules of good design . when u put something you must know before you place it what is this thing are doing and from where is this thing came from . This is the way to create the best atmosphere.
I think level design is such a huge deal. I’ve been so focused on tech and assets and abilities that I’ve got little to show for my years of effort but tiny tech demos and mechanisms I can use in the game. What I’m lacking is the ability to make content rapidly and with some repeatability.
I’ve ended up starting and abandoning lots of tools as I find myself making pieces of blender so I’m leaning into using geometry nodes and blender tooling as I’m finding it just uber frustrating blocker atm.
I’m actually looking forward to level design but I need to be satisfied with block out set and get some gameplay going.
You’re totally right that you spend tens of hours making levels players will blast through in 5 minutes BUT try to picture the tens of thousands players and therefore hundreds of thousands of minutes of gameplay those hours are making. It doesn’t stop players wanting more content but it’s something to hold onto.
It’s also true that level design can be a bit fun mechanics such as providing the illusion of choice and sometimes real choice, eater eggs and secrets and revealing things to the player through the spatial design of the levels. This I am looking forward to, so today I am not going to get bogged down on how to make it look good but instead focus on block out so I can get some of my mechanics living in the game and actually have the project started properly.
GL to you with your level design woes!
Personally Level design is one of my favorite topics, even though I am focused on UX & UI design and primarily work on that.
To me Level design is what can really make or break a game, though I agree it's also one of the hardest to get right since there are so many things to consider, like you stated; visibility, framing, lighting, coherency, pacing, and So. Much. More. haha
Great video mate, always great to hear from developers, especially indie devs, on how they feel and deal with these struggles since not Everything will be fun during development. :)
Bro this is exactly where I am mentally with my game “Learned what I needed to learn, but I can’t apply it to create a level”… damn I felt that. Your whole video was extremely relatable. Thanks for the insights!
Keep up the good work, Crimbob!
You're doing good!
In my experience the level design has to be rooted in a mechanic progression in order to make a great impression. Think early mega man where you get new abilities after beating a boss and then the abilities you have gained are later used, mastered and then layered. The hardest games to design well in my view are the ones with the most open ended mechanics where the progression is just experiment based and not based on unlocks. If this is the case the designer has to predict what the majority of players progress will be like and adjust accordingly, but you really won't be able to catch all the players to the extent you are with a more linear and predictable system.
Hey, thanks for sharing your thoughts with other people.
I've been learning gamedev for 2 years now, I started with small prototypes of hyper-casual games, and now I'm working on my own project on steam. So, i still feel like i'm a complete beginner, but looking on gamedev from different angles and working on different aspects by my own, like, 3d modeling in blender, coding on c#, trying to make shaders and textures, writing music,scenario and dialogues, result in loving game design and level design. And been someone who graduated in economics, and know absolutely nothing about programming, music and art, level design looks like something i can handle with.
And yes, the most frustrating thing in level design - ammount of time you spent on level compare to play time. I was working on my very 1st level, and it took me like 4-5 week to go from concept to playable blockout and its only 15-20 min of play time.
Anyway, you game looks amazing, keep it up!
Enjoyed watching the video a lot! Keep it up!
Great work, nice future suggestion for the camera
When walking through a door to another room it would be cool to add a animation where the camera swoops through the door way then angles back to the original position, maybe freeze the player movement for a second while the animation takes place, just a suggestion!
Project looks great
The format of the video is fine, as long as there's viability in the content. No need for fancy editing and/or crazy bells and whistles. The insight is useful, and the points you bring up are worth consideration.
I'm thankfully not there yet (though my plans are for part-procedural anyway) ! However one thing I've noticed about games with good levels is the levels are usually pretty "focused". They will focus on a gimmick or on a few of the game mechanics or even on just a handful of situations that are interesting for some of the mechanics. They kind of "highlight" gameplay elements. Then later levels (somewhere around usually the last 1/3 or 1/4 of a game) will have more freedom and let you express that through mixing and matching gameplay mechanics.
That's not an universal truth obviously, as any game that's mechanically "poor" (something like Hotline Miami would be to me the mechanically poor equivalent to your game's richness in this example) can't rely on that as much and must rely solely on interesting and gimmicky situations. But I feel you can have that type of progression and level building here.
I enjoyed a lot watching this video! I even searched for your game at Steam. So, I think, this video can be useful to you as a form of promoting your game. Your game S4H looks and feels awesome!
Honestly, I love level design because you can see your creations come to life, and make your world
I am game developer as well, was working as game designer for almost 4 years now, I have same problem as you, I have some background in art, graphic design etc, I'm more of an programmer and I love making game mechanics, that being said I'm an absolute moron when it comes to level design, I have no idea how to start, what to do when I start, and how to decide whether this level is good to go. No matter how many projects I've done in the past, level design was also such a big topic, I was almost scared of it. Would love to see your journey from empty screen to complete level in your game, some sort of hour long tutorial. I identify with you so much, I truly hope you get grasp of this aspect of game dev, for both of our sake :D Good Luck, great content!
For the first "major" game I worked on (aside from freelance and studio work) -- I ended up taking on the role of level designer.
Our game was a multiplayer-only arena-combat side-scroller. Our core mechanics were stupidly simple (not necessarily in a bad way) -- and at the time I felt like that was making it hard to design meaningfully different levels, the geometry and level layout just didn't really seem to make a big difference to how a map felt.
I found that it became much easier to design interesting (or at least "unique") feeling levels if they each had a some element of dynamic movement or danger to keep the players from ignoring their positioning entirely, to have something to play around with besides just the level geometry. This is likely not an appropriate way to approach all games, but since our core mechanics were so dead simple, having more dynamic maps (moving/rotating platforms and hazards) really helped spice it up.
Suddenly I was able to make a conveyor belt level with death traps and jump pads on some of the platforms -- or a rotating death field that kept players moving at all times, or a linear death field that kept them moving, or . . . Another linear death field that moved in a different direction.
I'm still proud of how that all turned out -- even it if was all gimmicks to help keep the core mechanics interesting (it's appropriate in a platformer I think, not so much in the game you're building).
I don't know where I'm going with this, it was frustrating for sure -- but you'll find that breakthrough and things will start flowing. For us the breakthrough was realizing we just needed to simplify the art and add dynamic elements to our game.
Level design is one of my favorite parts of the process
I've found that gaining a deep understanding of the task (level design), breaking it down to the smallest fudamental components, and then developing a step-by-step framework from your own knowedge base will mitigate most of the friction to accomplishing the task. Asking yourself how you can make this more enjoyable and modify your framework until it is will help reduce friction too.
As a level designer I can say:
Level design is the ultimate crosspoint between Game design, code, art, production,... you name it we have it.
And if it's named, odds are it's going to be an issue as some point. Voluntarily or not.
Every. Little. Decision. Matters.
I relate to you so much! As a web developer, coming from art and UX design, level design is sooo much more harder to do.. And than, spending sooo much time, for a few minutes of gameplay to the player 😭
It's a crazy contrast.. Keep it up! Really love the level that you showcased, the indoor and the outdoor shipyard! ♥
I resonate with what you said about making linear levels. The systems and coding can be really straight forward in a lot of ways but level design is hard because you have to think about so many different things involving the game experience. You have to get in the mind state of the person who will be playing the game.. Really great video, it was like you were reading my mind!
Never made a game before so giving it a try and I can already tell level design is going to be hard. I'm making a space combat game (take a look at my short videos) and cant imagine how to design space missions.
Your game is good it’s like the the opposite of midnight fight express the fact that you’re sharing the journey of you creating it as I play it is something I never experienced before it adds something I can’t describe but it’s amazing and makes me like the game even more thank you
After a year and a half working alone on a 3D Photorealistic shop with product configurator for a client on Unreal Engine 5, I've decided to create my own game to see something else that Retail and Watch configurator and from the years I've gathered a tons of assets like Polygons Packs so why not making my own game, putting what I've learned on the path to something big and learn more in depth and globaly.
But man... creating mechanics is easy AF... but creating an interesting level or map... DAMN ! Thats the only stuff that scares me.
Doing a Luxury Watch Shop following a Brand Identity is one thing, creating a whole new world is something else.
Your game looks sick man ! Congratulation ! And good luck for what comes next
Maaan, I _love_ level design. Yes, it's not easy, and there's a lot that needs to be considered. But it's _so_ satisfying. If you've got some cool mechanics and enemies, building levels to tie it all together is when the fun begins, imo. Give the player an objective to reach, and then put a bunch of obstacles in to overcome. Let the player know what to do and where to go but not what happens when they get there. Or what happens along the way. That's when you can really roll up your sleeves as a designer and try to make it interesting. Have them figure stuff out. Set up traps they can foresee and avoid, and feel smart for doing so. Some levels can be simple and straight forward, some can be non-linear and with a lot of back-and-forth. To keep things fresh, make each journey through already explored area different. Change something in the layout, throw different enemies in so player has to strategize/prioritize differently. Keep em on their toes, set expectations and then subvert them.
I hate setting up the basic mechanics, and enemies, and weapons.. Give me a set of solid elements to build from like a box of lego and I'm happy re-arranging them in all sorts of ways to build new stuff. That's the real fun of game dev.
Oh wow, it's refreshing to see a dev talking so openly about their struggles. Everyone is always either "oh, it's all fine, it will be out soon!" or just keep it shut about everything. Making games is a pain sometimes, it's good to hear someone actually saying that out loud.
I haven't had a lot of experience with level design yet. In my personal game I haven't had any issues with it because there isn't a lot of level design to it - it's basically an Angry Birds but with an arrow against an enemy army (like Bowmaster, for the browser gamers of old). Now I started working on Battle Royale/Brawler mobile game, and the little level design I did wasn't that intricate. My main experience with LD was last year when I decided to train LD by making a Doom level. Yeah, classic Doom.
In my mind, LD has always been kinda... weird. As in, I knew a lot of theory, but I just had no structure at all to put it in practice. The good ol' "how do I start?", and all that. Then I've found a Gamasutra (IIRC) article about how to plan and design levels. A real step-by-step, which is what I desperately needed. So I picked Doom to practice that, and it turned out pretty fine, even though it took MUCH LONGER to finish than I anticipated. Planning of paper was fine, but when you try to put it in practice, and worse, when you get people to playtest it... there are so many things you realise you have to change to make it work! But still, I could make it work and it was gratifying. Unfortunatelly that was all I could do, now with a new job and a newborn to look after, I barely have time to breathe, let alone practice more LD. But I still want to try a couple other concepts in Doom: a multiplayer arena like Overwatch, and a more Doom-like level, with less linear navigation and more verticality. Someday.
Anyway, that's worked out to me. And if you keep threading down that path, I hope you also find what makes it click for you!
great video! I was very surprised to see the level design pipeline in here made by Timo, a fellow game design student. He really knows his stuff! Good luck on making the game, it looks great.
Appreciate the honesty. Keep on keepin on
hang in there crimson! you've come so far already
I think you're on the right track and taking time to stamp out all the mechanics is crucial. In my experience, trying to design an environment that complements game mechanics that are not 100% fleshed out is painful. In that kind of scenario, the designer is effectively working blind and even worse, wasting time. Modular tools are excellent and really do save time! Motivation is also essential, obviously. When things aren't going according to your vision or plan, it can be demoralizing, to say the least. Project deadlines notwithstanding, remember it is okay to take a break.
lol nice touch with the wilhelm scream
One thing that’s always bothered me is the fact that when I go to sleep at night I’ll often see hyper detailed environments and worlds in my dreams. Often times I’m aware that what I’m seeing is a game and the environment matches exactly what is required of that game. The fact my brain can literally create something of such immense detail and scale that it would take a AAA team with thousands of devs years to create, and knowing that I have that capability but just can’t access it while awake as I try to design even the most basic map will always hurt. Between game environments and irl visual data, we all sit on enough reference material to generate any environment we want for any purpose in virtually Infinite detail but the thoughts just don’t connect that way outside of a dreamlike state and so we struggle.
Didn't know your game, looks awesome. Keep up the good work, I wish you success as a game dev! :-)
It’s very interesting hearing this side of the spectrum. I personally freaking love doing level design. I only do it through other game engines for modding in pre-built tools, but it’s interesting hearing why you don’t like it. Great video!
I'm a Unity developer, I will suggest this to help you with level design stall as I call it.
1. If you are familiar with using noise to produce randomized effects you can do a simple 2d project. First break down your current assets to their most basic relevance. Doors, floor, water, window, w/e. Then color code them. Apply logic to the tiles so if white tile needs red on two opposite sides and red need red or blue and so on. Next assign these colors with names for the basic stuff and build a generate function.
Finally if you want to get fancy change the shape of the spawning of the tiles to circular, rectangular, etc. Also you should have an easy way to increase the area of the tiles spawning. After that use that generate the procedural bp and then follow along on your 3d project.
After doing this then go in and do actual level design work to make it so the player more intuitively knows the lines they can follow for your expected results.
2. Make some template levels, just throw away levels you don't care about. Then apply the assets you want for the look you want to the template.
These are the two things I use to help with development time. I am mainly a coder so I apply the logic of getting it done first then coming back and optimizing it later.
~ Good luck
Those animations are juicy af, would you mind making a video talking about how these are made? Specifically your overall animation process + how the interaction between the player & enemy animations works
How am I just now finding your channel? I enjoyed this style of video.
I loved the concept and idea. Good going man.
I like level design. Its fun to sit there and throw on some music and find the vibe of the level. Like what feelings do you want the level to inspire. Is there a corridor or not? How can I make it more aesthetic while also achieving any beats that have to happen as well. Its an art form that I enjoy. Is there an opening with a big boss fight or several henchmen? Is there a resting place to collect yourself before going through the next gauntlet. Working backwards helps a lot too.
To be honest your levels are looking so awesome!!!
what is it with modern indie game developers and just having no clue of how to approach learning level design for 3d games? this just feeds into my theory that the way modern indie developers teach themselves is not good enough when compared to something like modding
I don't think modding is necessary to build up skills for level design (or game development in general). This project allowed me to push myself on the level design side and I've learned tons from it.
I think your theory is 100% wrong and a big assumption, but to each their own.
@@FirstCrimson maybe not for the mechanical/systemic side of things, i know especially since most engines tend to do things differently on a technical basis. but not design-wise? you don't think being able to open and break down a level from a game of your choosing would help your design skills more than just guessing it? GDC talks and video essays from people like GMTK will only get you so far in this regard. it's the lack of modding support for most modern video games that therefore don't allow this process of learning by studying other's work that i feel is missing from modern indie game development. It ends up creating a vacuum in dev's learning opportunity that is only otherwise filled by direct practice, and even that is an issue, because how the hell do you practice level design without making a whole game's systems and mechanics first? and hey, even if you're still skeptic, there's a guy on yt by the name of Steve Lee, he's a professional level designer who worked on arkane while they were developing Dishonored 2, in fact you might know him from the talk he did on Holistic level design a while back. Recently he started teaching designers on his channel. What's interesting is that instead of using a modern game engine like unity or unreal, he decided to go back to Source. Because by modding half life 2 he can use all of it's content and core mechanics, in order to focus on practicing and teaching modern desgin principles. this is all to say that even though i agree that your specific case maybe doesn't fit in, you have to realize that so many developers would have a much easier time understanding how level design works if you could focus on learning it by itself for a couple of months without having to learn how to build an entire game first.
anyway, i should've probably made my first comment a little more nuanced since now i realized i have to explain a good chunk of it. either way, i'd just like to say that i really enjoyed your game, i'm glad you were able to deal with your level design struggles, but in my point of view, i think when you keep saying to yourself that as soon as this one is done you'll never do linear levels by hand again, but to me that just seems like a cope because of how much of a struggle it must've been so far, and you would likely make more games with similar design in the future if you just had a better learning experience. It just shocks me every time a devlog youtuber says something to the effect of "i have no clue how to level design"
and this is my reasoning why. at the end of the day, i think there is a core part of learning new skills that is missing, being able to break things apart on our own at the end of the day is how we learn best, and i'm not sure the alternative's are quite enough for a lot of people. well anyway that's my bit. thanks for coming to my GDC talk
@@defectivenull I can see your point of view in terms of pre-existing game mechanics already being there, for sure can understand that. But I wouldn't disregard other ways of learning if that entails coming up with a developers' own game mechanics, etc. which can allow their skills to be pushed further. At the end of the day, if people are learning the fundamentals then I don't see an issue with level designing ones' own game.
I've definitely seen Steve Lee, been looking at his videos the past few days and they've been helpful.
That being said, I'd like to note that sometimes I do over-exaggerate things and I imagine other YTers do the same in terms of me saying "I have no clue how to level design", etc. I've obviously learned a lot in the past year and have gotten better at the overall level design workflow.
Appreciate the comment, I think I could add more to my comment but it's a pretty extensive topic.
100% agreed. Level design is not only hard...It's the HARDEST part of game designing, for sure. I've been working on a third-person shooter for ages and my nemesis is Level design (For environment concepts, I'm using AI to speed up my process. Oh, boy, how I wish there is an advanced AI to help us to plan levels and test them on the fly before human playing test...). Your game looks so cool!
what kind of thing is hard for you? Maby I can explain you how to overcome it
@@hate3333 Hey, thanks for your help! Really appreciated. It's pretty hard to explain because it's about a third-person shooter level and its balance. But I'll try.
The mechanics:
I'm using unreal 4 and TPS Kit with some customization, and right now I'm replacing the last animations to improve the gunplay speed. (Kane and Lynch 2 gameplay style, but the player can roll, vault, climb, and has a special bullet time as Michael on GTAV).
One of the problems:
I'm facing problems with enemy encounters/matches. Had the same problem as Suit for Hire dev. My game is a linear single player and the player could "clean" an area in two minutes, give or take. It's been demanding a huge amount of time to create the levels, so I'm trying to create a new way to approach it: a larger map where the player/"spy" can investigate the area and activate encounters/matches according to their capacity to find hints. The problem is, larger maps are harder to manage and the player can think it's boring to see the same level because these levels aren't that large. "Missions" would be activated according to the player's findings, it was my answer to reutilize a level and progress the story, but... Geez, it's been hard to manage...
@@Amelia_PC I apologize in advance if I did not fully understand your problem (correct me
) You can make a list of missions that will be supplemented as the map is explored and the player meets the NPC who gives it. This will allow the player to safely explore the map without losing interest in it. You can also diversify your game in this way by arranging NPCs of different difficulty levels not in a linear order, but randomly, which will allow the player to try to win the match earlier than expected (being lower level), however, since it will be more difficult for him, if he manages it, he needs to will somehow reward him, if he fails after many attempts, he will simply continue to explore the map in search of a less difficult opponent to level up. And since all visited NPCs will be saved in the list of missions, this will allow the player not to run through this level, but simply to launch the mission from the list (teleport). You can also add just a teleport to locations (by missions) So that the player can quickly move to already visited places / NPCs (you can implement it in different ways depending on your universe). You can also make hidden missions hidden on the map, which will force the player to run around the map :)
@@hate3333 Oooooh man! Good point! A teleport system! I completely forgot about it because my game is a contemporary crime shooter then my stupid brain blocked the "sci-fi stuff" theme. When doing a quick cutscene, I can hide the teleport. Thanks for your help!
@Amelia PC So you can realize your TP as you wish - depens on your universe and genre . If it`s sci-fi you can just place a portal points and give yo your char an item ( lets call it portal button ) also you can give it to him like a reward after killing some NPC - or maby after player will exlore some % of map . If the technology in your universe have no teleport you can use a taxi or another transport ( like in GTA :P ) or just insta travel by legs :DDD ( with some timer or maby animated way on the map ( like in Fallout )
Another amazing video. I never really thought much about the tool development that you mention in this one quite a bit. I'll have to do some searching around because you seem to have quite a few of them in there and they seem to be tremendously helpful.
Definitely recommend building tools where you can, saves loads of time and headaches.
I feel that my level design phase is going to take years, especially considering I'm still figuring out what elements to put in the levels and how.
And I'm terrified that I'll never get it done.
Also it's a 2D Platformer and the levels are going to have two states with slight differences depending on whether you've completed the level before based on the concept of exploiting a spacetime anomaly for resources... which just makes it feel a lot more daunting.
Oh, and I'm mainly a programmer.
EDIT: Guess this is why John Romero said he made the first level last.
Level Design is so fascinating to me. I spent so much of my time as a kid on the Warcraft 3 Map editor and the Hammer editor. I feel like it's much easier for me to grasp the placement and purpose of things than any other aspect of game creation.
Crimson, I really hope you read this. Please take ALL the time you need to make sure the level design is excellent. Don't feel the need to cave and just say "That'll do." You've got a great game and like you said, level design is about 80% of this game. PLEASE don't give in to your frustration, while valid, your fans will praise you more for a well designed level. Thank you for making this game.
“the cathedral has a catacombs section, I was even able to use some of the candles I made for Blades of *Ortera?* so it’s funny taking all these things I put into a grave...”
…There’s untapped pun potential right there…
Im starting a project and while researching for interesting top down shooting mechanics, I stomp upon your work and gotta say it's fcking inspiring and unique.
A few things...I have been watching your streams, and although my twitcherfication level is low, I do enjoy myself whilst watching. Now then, onto my numbered list.
1) delegate.
2) escalation.
3) item crunch.
4) level types.
1) If you delegate, you are now a pro developer; only appearing to shout at people and bark orders at them: congrats :)
2) Your comments on linear progression can simply be (mostly) fixed by using escalation. So, think of large multi-story building, each floor has some goons of varying skills and mini-bosses with varying weapons and ranges. Put this $hit into a table
Each floor of the building gets increasingly harder, with the top floor having the 'big bad boss' and an item of importance, like a bonus award time completion medal.
The thing is, I know that you know this and just do not understand why your levels should be much more harder to design than structuring the 'floors' of each level by using a simple data table at the concept stage, because level design is not just level design at the linear scale. Once you have a table, you are putting a restriction on the geometry of the level.
The levels are (if you think about it) being designed by increasing/decreasing/adjusting the data table containing the quantities of each enemy type.
Another element of level design is (as you know) surprising the player, something which does not appear to exist in your game. So, the player expects a door to open when they throw a switch, it does; but the door behind them also opens and more enemies appear! doubling the outcome - placing the player in an immediate danger, making demands on their skill levels!
3) how much ammo should you add to the Environment? Health? how about enemies and enemy types? You need item crunch to solve this, but how? Simple: when testing, make it so the player cannot be killed or run out of ammo yet, record the numbers at key points.
So...if you (figuratively) had a level that was a long, narrow corridor, interspersed with doors to block progress, then once you get to the end, you will have a total of ammo USED and the total amount of health LOST. From this, the level designer will know:-
How much ammo is needed per section of the corridor
How much health is lost per section of the corridor
How difficult the level is per section
How long it takes to progress per section of the corridor.
These are KEY to how the game feels to play.
Another example would be "R-Type"; goons, mini-bosses, bosses, pickups, health - you start at one end and have to get to the other. How would you design such a level? How would an R-Type level be designed? Which direction would the ships come from?
Just add time counters, asset counters (FNameAsset counters, how many timesa an asset was loaded/referenced and then, unloaded/unreferenced once used) and print a json into a table somewhere, compare and contrast amongst those who are testing.
Also, although you can design a level yourself and test it, in truth the best person to give feedback is someone who plays it all the way through for the first time, because their first reaction is typically the most accurate. Woods and trees spring to mind.
4) Level types.
The direction of the game does not appear to have areas where the enemies are entrenched...they all seem to want to just run at the player with knowledge they should not have and, without care to outcome. Enemies should have more types of behaviour, because with having ALL enemies seemingly acting in very similar ways, the levels feel like a Gauntlet.
What I'm saying (however hurtful it might seem - and I assure you that is not the intent♥) is the level might as well be long corridors, with bosses, mini-bosses all standing in a straight line and the player skill is determined by tip-toeing forward until an enemy is 'triggered' and clicking the mouse in their direction...so...just timing, really.
In other words...having buttons to push and doors to open and things to move out of the way of feels meaningless, if all we are going to do is tap-tap-tap in a predictable sequence, in fact, I would even go so far as to say the 'obstacles' become (mildly) annoying and just...'in the way'.
You've told the player the objective is to get to the end of the level...so to prioritise other elements in absence of variety of goal acquisition, is like gloating about your k/d ratio as you lose the match. You even said it yourself, kinda, by people saying the game can be finished quickly, it can.
In short, I think you are focusing on the wrong elements of level design instead of basic gameplay and escalation - as a result, you are finding the levels take far too long to build.
When you see negative reviews for your game, don't let it get you down. Simply making and releasing a game at all is a big achievement in and of itself, something most people cannot say they've done, something nobody can take away from you.
I do enjoy level design to some extent, it feels nice figuring out how to work with what the AI can do to create a fun experience, where they are interesting to interact with rather than a boring easy or overbearing experience. Good level design and AI design working together in harmony creates great games.
so for the camera clipping, ive created a material for my top down shooter, that uses a sphere maske to De-render static meshes that pass between player and camera using a line trace
could be helpful
Level design I can agree is hell (my approach is that of narrative design as the groundwork for everything and the description of your brain blocking you is something I fully agree with)
The current game I'm working on is a third person story driven game with the levels being effectively contained sandboxes in an open world that the player can enter at a ton of angles and leave at any angle (the general gameplay loops is framed as stealth in a normal house environment for the level sandboxes) to drop in find evidence and escape without getting caught until you get enough to convict (I will note that the story does force the player to return to these locations multiple times to find everything (after enough evidence is found it switches to combat starting incredibly easy but ramping up the difficulty overtime
Yes, liner levels are challenging but to me how to create remember moments in liner levels is to set up areas to a game mechanic like giving the player different ways to take down the enemies. So, for example, you can set 5 enemies in the area one of the enemies has it back towards the player assassinated him and other enemies move area feely or you can shoot him right away and the other enemies go gun blasting or take one of the enemies hostages make him a shield. To me, if you give the player a lot of choices on how to take down enemies in cool way players will remember the moment. This game looks awesome can't wait to play the full version.
It's a running joke in my group of dev friends that level design is both the most important and hardest part of game dev. We rely on block-out tools like RealtimeCSG (it's a unity tool) which does speed things up but it's still a slog.
"Ugh, I can't be bothered with level design, time for feature creep" is our go-to phrase.
I came across this page while currently going through level design and could not agree more, I am 2 years in with my game and what a bottle neck it is compared to programming and Blueprints, Amen!
Once I really started to get into making levels I was blown away at how much time you can spend. Just populating a table can take time. Now do and entire neighborhood, only for the player to blast through it with out even looking at that table...
Lots of comments, so maybe someone else already said this: Have you considered using procgen levels, but then capturing the seeds of the levels you think would work for your campaign mode, so that they are "tailored to the experience", but you got them initially by procgen. You can also do an 80% method, where you get a level thats pretty good for a campaign section, and then just fix up the problems to make it fit better. Or doing copy-paste for sections of procgen that work well, to put them together
I haven't played the game, but looking at the gameplay it seems the levels are mostly about your open space and obstacles feeling right for the current situation with regard to visibility, and this is something using some editing from procgen might get you going faster on. So boutique results, but without the grind to totally manual level layout.
In fact, the more tools you do, the more you'll get a better flow.
As a solo dev it is the most important way to help you out along the way, you can't be perfect in all area of a game development, but with dedication and time you'll get there.
In the end, you have to like what you do, so that's what will keep pushes you forward.
Your game looks incredible, tho, it's just a matter of time developing these tools to fasten your development.
You should be proud of what you already have done, keep working on small steps at the time and you'll get where you are supposed to be.
hey i wanna know how i can make or get that wall tool 🥲
A lot of short games have a "simple" side mode that fills the game up a bit. Most of the time its a wave based survival gamemode, it gives endless content and a lot of people look at it like endless content even tho its really not. Its a simple enough trick to even out the post game content.
I feel you! I started by doing some 3D modelling but decided the fastest way to enter game development was through programming so I studied Computer Science but never totally left behind 3d, some fundamentals of animation and I been giving serious steps on narrative design, story writing, etc. but when I try level design... oh, God... my designs are soooo lame or so easy to break or so extremely complex or lacking any kind of "interconnected logic" that on every attempt to "solo" a game I end by having some good mechanics but I am unable to create a place where everything happen. The only time I've been mild satisfied has been creating procedural generators that create the levels for me.
Watching this as I work on a modular building design. Had to scrap once before, but thus far it's going... well, I guess. I feel it.
I've only done a little bit of game dev and level design is definitely something I want to do more of with the challenge of working out this puzzle of each area and needing it to fit with the overall game pacing
You gave me a fright at 07:11. I'm never going to get used to my face randomly appearing in youtube searches.
I am 100% with you on level design. It feels like such a personal bottleneck. For something that seems so simple, it has a sea of topics from game flow to affordance, saliency to critical paths, It's exhausting. It doesn't help there is definitely a dearth of content on the subject.
It can be over whelming at times but break it down into smaller areas write down what area the level will consist of and assets that would be in those areas do one spot at a time worry about optimization and lighting towards the end
I really enjoy level design, its something I've been confident at doing for as long as I can remember. My issue as a newer developer is that I am trying like hell to learn what unreal engine has to offer and learn the ins and outs of blueprints.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Each bit of abstraction in objects that is increased exponentially increases the amount of work that must be done to complete a game...usually. There are some exceptions when dealing with...you know what, never mind, that's irrellevant...but the point is...
We can take just graphics alone as the example.
2D game: Just draw one side of an object. It can collide on (usually) 4 sides as 2D games tend to be grid based. Not always, but generally, at least graphically. Even if vectors define the edges of objects to create a more natural look, ultimately, you only have to provide one view of each thing. Furthermore, you don't have to provide a whole lot in terms of definition of the graphics to collisions. Either they're going to do something when overlapping on a 2d plane with something else or they are not.
3D game: Take that one side and now you have to not only draw it from 6 different directions, but each direction is a different shape, i.e. a 3d model. Already we've increased the workload of the artists 5 fold. But then we have to start thinking about things that aren't required for 2D games as much as 3D (which is 3D's own 90's propaganda fault...but I digress), like...dynamic lighting and whether it looks good with certain rendering settings. And now even simple 2D textures have multiple 'layers' which need to be created in order to 'finalize' the single side of the object, something that's irrelevant in 2D because 2D is like South Park animation at it's heart.
Using that last bit, notice how many 2D cartoons there are that get produced on a weekly basis, even non hand-drawn ones, vs. 3D...
That should tell you everything.
So ultimately...I'd say, forget 3D. It's aesthetics aren't worth the work if your end result is still a 2D game. Just go 2D, draw cool stuff and be done. 3D sells graphics cards, gameplay sells games.
I'm a solo dev and struggle with the grasping the same concept, so much so that I haven't really bothered to make complex or proper maps and opt for a simpler sandbox style, but this is not a necessarily good thing for the games I want to make. Honestly at a certain point it's about letting go of making "perfect" levels, and compromising. Understand the strengths and weaknesses of your game and your abilities and honestly running with it.
Sure, I can spend a whole month trying to do pre-production, prototyping, testing, redesigning and all of that but it's a good lesson of finding what's good enough for your gameplay, since like you said, content can be a real issue. On the complete flipside, maybe it says something about trying to do too much with your core gameplay and mechanics, sacrificing the time you have from making good enough maps. So understand what you are good at and not, lean into it, but be honest with yourself if you lean into too much without support.
Maybe shift the pacing of the core gameplay loop in some way that fits your level design skillset better, understanding that longer pacing usually necessitates better design but that might be preferable to making a higher quantity of varied maps instead.
You can also think of the pacing in terms of the individual *parts* of each level, since not every area is weighted equally in terms of gameplay or narrative importance so you can be messy with it and people won't care as the most important part is still the most polished and *therefore* the most memorable. People generally don't remember 100% of any map for a reason, so use that knowledge to your advantage to save yourself some over-designing stress.
TBH I'm kind of making this up as I go since I lack experience but I do understand what how map design contributes to how memorable certain maps or gameplay moments are to me in different games. It's also a bit of understanding that you will see more problems than your average player, which isn't cause to be naiive, sneaky or lazy but a way to increase awareness of how you might over-value and over-design anything.
Added example: Risk of Rain 2. The way the levels are designed in mind with the pacing and the assets they have available works incredibly well. The maps are simple, even arguably unimportant in terms of layout due to the way the game plays and how the environment isn't always an important factor for every character.
They use small gimmicks here and there on certain maps or with certain maps more than others to increase variety without making the level design too much more demanding (if anything it makes it more flexible). The game has a lot of assets but I'd say a lot of them are reused or frankly unimportant, and a lot of the *tone* of a level is defined by it's atmosphere through vfx, music, enemy variety, or pacing (such as that one level with the harpies and the machine god they worship spawning, which fights like any other boss but the spawn behavior is unique to this level and rewards a guaranteed legendary item).
Also, the game design obviously necessitates and supports replayability due to being a roguelike, and so I think the focus is less on the layout of the map being strictly perfect but more about making them kind of flexible and less over-designed to increase freedom of movement, which burns the player out less *plus* makes the maps easier to design alongside the random spawn locations for interactables. If you think you need a good map of X variety because of it adding Y value to your game, consider how you might be able to add that value through another medium, such as that same roguelike-nature of randomly spawning interactables giving the value of replayability to Risk of Rain 2's levels without trying to make the map itself so porous or have so many choices.
Personally, as a recent grad I love level design and it's my fav part of development. I love guiding the player through maps and having that hidden connection with them where I can make them act or feel when designing a level. It's hard when something doesn't work out as planned sure but I find level design to be super rewarding.
This is exactly what is happening with me. Almost a month just passed and I'm still figuring out the height and width of walls. I'm just a beginner so I should not complain this much but I think art and design for me is just pain