@TheFunkhouser that's OK, I recently did a short on this mission and someone requested about the aircraft that were involved as his father was involved aswell as a typhoon escort. He wanted to know what happened to aircraft as not everyone made it back 👍🏻
@@Chariots84 oh ok, would love to read it. I thght strange having typhoons as escorts... maybe they could've joined in the ground attack?? Not sure. Was sad reading about the mozzie that got shot down by that Fw190 with both crew KIA 😥 😔
The only thing I would add to your usual meticulous research is that the "paper trail" and verbal accounts would be just the tip of the machinations that invariably took place in all this cloak and dagger work. There will be so much more that took place on the ground in Northern France and in the corridors of Whitehall back in the UK, which remain shrouded in the mists of time, possibly never to be uncovered. We can only make guarded judgements based on what is known. But excellent work as ever. Respects to those that took part and remembrance to those who lost their lives both on the ground and in the air.
Excellent vidéo. The idea that Amiens was a "high security prison" for French resistance fighters ignores the simple fact that such people were summarily shot, not imprisoned. Starting in 1940-1941, and especially from 1943, deportation gradually became the German authorities’ main instrument for the repression of acts of opposition. In both the northern and southern zones, between 1940 and 1944, a total of over 60,300 people were deported to Nazi concentration camps and prisons in the Reich ; at least 42% of them died there .
Excellent story and research but keep digging as the reason given for the raid does not hold water. All this just because there may be someone of interest held in Amiens prison who knew something about about a likely invasion in the Pas de Calais area? - No way! Its just too thin.
As part of a much larger deception operation (Operation Fortitude), it is perfectly believable. And if not as part of Fortitude, then what was the reason for the raid?
My first time hearing this version which disputes the 'official' history that we've all been spoonfed over the years. Makes me wonder just how many other 'worthwhile' operations were actually B.S. and just wartime propaganda ? Not to diminish the brave men and women who fought and died, but how many of them were lied to also ?
On its own, no. But as part of a sustained and very subtle supply of misinformation from MI6 to the Germans then it is it perfectly plausible. We couldn't cover every aspect in a 10 minute film, but it's worth reading more about Operation Fortitude to understand the amount of deception that was being carried out at the time.
It's a very good documentary indeed. (Much bigger budget than ours!) The researchers wanted to use Dr Ducellier's manuscript but they didn't want to pay us for it, so we declined...They went ahead the best they could.
This video, like the book, starts well and is argued with solid facts - but then wonders off into murky conspiracy theory with 'could it be' 'is it?' etc and 'irrespective of whether it was part of it...' With great illustrations and plans, the first part of Ducellier's book is probably the best and most detailed examination of the bombing, even down to identifying which aircraft dropped which bomb. At the time, the aircrew and public were told the reason the raid was carried out was to free '120 resistants due to be executed' (Ducellier argues it was barely a handful - though as author Robert Lyman has argued, technically, all the imprisoned resistants faced death, because they were due to be transported to German slave labour or death camps). However, Ducellier believes the 'real' reason for the raid was to reinforce the Operation Fortitude deception plan that intended to fool the Germans into thinking D-Day would come in northern France, not the west. However, his direct evidence is... nothing. He provides 38 pages of general archive documents about Operation Fortitude, going into detail about plans to make the Germans think that the Allies were going to raid Scandinavia and what the Russians were up to, even throwing in big names - Rommel, von Stauffenberg, Churchill, Eisenhower etc etc - but absolutely nothing to do with Amiens: in fact, the place is not even connected or mentioned once. Later, he even writes his unproven assumptions as fact (p.352: 'February 18th 1944 was the climax of this particular part of the plan. The bombing of Amiens prison was a key part of a giant jigsaw..'). It is almost as if the author has spent too long thinking about it and gets to the stage of 2+2=5. He even sees (unproven) shady relevance in the change of Operation Fortitude's codename from Operation Mespot. Without doubt, there are loose ends in the Amiens prison raid story. Indeed, 80 years on, some of the evidence and dates do not tie up. There may well be documents stored away under lock and key released in decades time that reveal more and finally fully explain the story. Alternatively, we may never know all that happened. But more often than not, where there are gaps in history, unfortunately, unproven conspiracy theories soon jump in to fill the gaps. Using fact-based arguments, Robert Lyman suggested in his more recent 2014 book 'The Jail Busters' that the raid was carried out - as was indeed originally suggested 30 years previously in Jack Fishman's book on the raid And The Walls Came Tumbling Down (1982) - to free resistants in the run up to D-Day, because, probably more so than is realised today, the German secret police and intelligence services had penetrated, arrested and seriously damaged many of the resistance groups in the area: 7 out of 10 radio operators around Paris had either been captured or turned and 1,500 resistance members had recently been deported to Germany. The Allies urgently needed this resistance help during D-Day to disrupt trains and troop supplies travelling through northern France down to Normandy. Lyman also provides further evidence and greater bearing of the importance the resistance had to MI6's supply of intelligence in the region, particularly with the build up of the V1 bases in the area. All this was essential for the Allies and D-Day - and none of this information could be gathered and provided whilst the resistance were sat incarcerated in prison or facing execution - hence the raid. Also, if this was only part of a deception, why the raid's hurried nature? It was conducted in a snow storm that put the aircrews at great risk (one Typhoon disappeared over the Channel) - why not wait a couple of days later until better flying conditions? And why risk (and kill) some of their best aircrews and resistance allies all for a ruse? If they really wanted to reinforce the Operation Fortitude ruse, why not bomb a German barracks or HQ in the region instead? In the 2011 TV documentary 'Operation Jericho', Air Historical Branch historian Sebastian Cox said 'one raid on a prison does not make it part of Operation Fortitude' and intelligence historian Mark Seaman said 'let's not fill up the gaps with 'possibles' 'make-believes' 'who knows'.
This is not a conspiracy theory, this is a sound evaluation of the evidence that currently exists. The Fortitude connection was arrived at not only by Dr Ducellier, who, (unlike Robert Lyman), actually knew and interviewed many of the Resistance Members in the area, but also the BBC Panorama programme. You should watch it, especially the interview with the SOE's Maurice Buckmaster, which is a classic! The blindingly obvious explanation of the raid's hurried nature was that the RAF senior officers had been briefed that the prisoners were going to be executed on 19 February, so delaying until an improvement in the weather on the 21st was hardly an option was it?! You clearly believe Robert Lyman's book and that's entirely your choice, but as historians ourselves, we know that Dr Ducellier's research is in a totally different league to that one.
@@basfinnis haha! Oopsadaisy... Oh the irony... the Daily Mail went with/promoted the book with an accompanying story on 18 February 2014, with the salacious headline 'RAF deliberately sacrificed the lives of more than 100 French prisoners in daring air-raid in order to protect D-DAY plans, new book claims'.
@@WingleaderFilms Not entirely sure how resistance veterans then or after would have known what Fortitude planners in London were stragegizing... Again, more than happy to believe any theory - as long as there is accompanying direct proof to substantiate it. In this case, there is no documentary or other proof provided whatsoever that even matches the words 'Amiens' with 'Operation Fortitude' together.
My old neighbour was one of the pilots in that, we never knew until he died. He didnt say a word, he was a nice man too. RIP Sir.
What was his name?
@@Chariots84 I dont know anymore sorry.
@TheFunkhouser that's OK, I recently did a short on this mission and someone requested about the aircraft that were involved as his father was involved aswell as a typhoon escort. He wanted to know what happened to aircraft as not everyone made it back 👍🏻
@@Chariots84 oh ok, would love to read it. I thght strange having typhoons as escorts... maybe they could've joined in the ground attack?? Not sure. Was sad reading about the mozzie that got shot down by that Fw190 with both crew KIA 😥 😔
@@TheFunkhouser ruclips.net/video/i16v_jBZPOA/видео.htmlsi=l7BKJw2FoMI5xuDb
Great research, Thanks for details I had never read about.
Liked and subscribed, - Excellent content regarding this famous raid.
The only thing I would add to your usual meticulous research is that the "paper trail" and verbal accounts would be just the tip of the machinations that invariably took place in all this cloak and dagger work. There will be so much more that took place on the ground in Northern France and in the corridors of Whitehall back in the UK, which remain shrouded in the mists of time, possibly never to be uncovered. We can only make guarded judgements based on what is known. But excellent work as ever.
Respects to those that took part and remembrance to those who lost their lives both on the ground and in the air.
Thank you for just another amazing video!
Another top drawer production - thank you.
Fascinating insight
All very tenuous, I’m afraid, and until evidence is produced, the jury is still out.
Excellent vidéo. The idea that Amiens was a "high security prison" for French resistance fighters ignores the simple fact that such people were summarily shot, not imprisoned. Starting in 1940-1941, and especially from 1943, deportation gradually became the German authorities’ main instrument for the repression of acts of opposition. In both the northern and southern zones, between 1940 and 1944, a total of over 60,300 people were deported to Nazi concentration camps and prisons in the Reich ; at least 42% of them died there .
TY 🙏🙏
Do you have a link to the Panorama programme?
I am stunned that the official history - and even Wikipedia - has not been changed if this is true. I am so confused.
The first casualty of war is the truth.
Truth must be protected by a bodyguard of lies.
Excellent story and research but keep digging as the reason given for the raid does not hold water. All this just because there may be someone of interest held in Amiens prison who knew something about about a likely invasion in the Pas de Calais area? - No way!
Its just too thin.
As part of a much larger deception operation (Operation Fortitude), it is perfectly believable. And if not as part of Fortitude, then what was the reason for the raid?
I'm unable to link to your website: can you please advise me why this is? I would like to know more about who you are... thank you
www.wingleader.co.uk
My first time hearing this version which disputes the 'official' history that we've all been spoonfed over the years. Makes me wonder just how many other 'worthwhile' operations were actually B.S. and just wartime propaganda ? Not to diminish the brave men and women who fought and died, but how many of them were lied to also ?
Bombing a prison close to the Pas de Calais area to make it seem that was the real target for D-day makes no sense at all.
On its own, no. But as part of a sustained and very subtle supply of misinformation from MI6 to the Germans then it is it perfectly plausible. We couldn't cover every aspect in a 10 minute film, but it's worth reading more about Operation Fortitude to understand the amount of deception that was being carried out at the time.
The BBC Documentary, with Martin Shaw is far better researched.
It's a very good documentary indeed. (Much bigger budget than ours!) The researchers wanted to use Dr Ducellier's manuscript but they didn't want to pay us for it, so we declined...They went ahead the best they could.
Deserves a movie.
Couldn't be made today unless Pickard was played by Will Smith.
There already is, sort of. It's called 633 Squadron. Much fictionally embellished, of course, but definitely based on this action.
@@unclenogbad1509 and also Mosquito Squadron 33 with David McCallum
@@jeffdagendesh2482 Same film, I think. Was that the US title?
@@unclenogbad1509two different films.
@@Pseudonym-aka-aliasYes, I looked it up. It was Mosquito Squadron in the UK (don't know what the '33' is about). My mistake.
This video, like the book, starts well and is argued with solid facts - but then wonders off into murky conspiracy theory with 'could it be' 'is it?' etc and 'irrespective of whether it was part of it...'
With great illustrations and plans, the first part of Ducellier's book is probably the best and most detailed examination of the bombing, even down to identifying which aircraft dropped which bomb.
At the time, the aircrew and public were told the reason the raid was carried out was to free '120 resistants due to be executed' (Ducellier argues it was barely a handful - though as author Robert Lyman has argued, technically, all the imprisoned resistants faced death, because they were due to be transported to German slave labour or death camps). However, Ducellier believes the 'real' reason for the raid was to reinforce the Operation Fortitude deception plan that intended to fool the Germans into thinking D-Day would come in northern France, not the west. However, his direct evidence is... nothing.
He provides 38 pages of general archive documents about Operation Fortitude, going into detail about plans to make the Germans think that the Allies were going to raid Scandinavia and what the Russians were up to, even throwing in big names - Rommel, von Stauffenberg, Churchill, Eisenhower etc etc - but absolutely nothing to do with Amiens: in fact, the place is not even connected or mentioned once.
Later, he even writes his unproven assumptions as fact (p.352: 'February 18th 1944 was the climax of this particular part of the plan. The bombing of Amiens prison was a key part of a giant jigsaw..'). It is almost as if the author has spent too long thinking about it and gets to the stage of 2+2=5. He even sees (unproven) shady relevance in the change of Operation Fortitude's codename from Operation Mespot.
Without doubt, there are loose ends in the Amiens prison raid story. Indeed, 80 years on, some of the evidence and dates do not tie up. There may well be documents stored away under lock and key released in decades time that reveal more and finally fully explain the story. Alternatively, we may never know all that happened.
But more often than not, where there are gaps in history, unfortunately, unproven conspiracy theories soon jump in to fill the gaps.
Using fact-based arguments, Robert Lyman suggested in his more recent 2014 book 'The Jail Busters' that the raid was carried out - as was indeed originally suggested 30 years previously in Jack Fishman's book on the raid And The Walls Came Tumbling Down (1982) - to free resistants in the run up to D-Day, because, probably more so than is realised today, the German secret police and intelligence services had penetrated, arrested and seriously damaged many of the resistance groups in the area: 7 out of 10 radio operators around Paris had either been captured or turned and 1,500 resistance members had recently been deported to Germany.
The Allies urgently needed this resistance help during D-Day to disrupt trains and troop supplies travelling through northern France down to Normandy. Lyman also provides further evidence and greater bearing of the importance the resistance had to MI6's supply of intelligence in the region, particularly with the build up of the V1 bases in the area. All this was essential for the Allies and D-Day - and none of this information could be gathered and provided whilst the resistance were sat incarcerated in prison or facing execution - hence the raid.
Also, if this was only part of a deception, why the raid's hurried nature? It was conducted in a snow storm that put the aircrews at great risk (one Typhoon disappeared over the Channel) - why not wait a couple of days later until better flying conditions? And why risk (and kill) some of their best aircrews and resistance allies all for a ruse? If they really wanted to reinforce the Operation Fortitude ruse, why not bomb a German barracks or HQ in the region instead?
In the 2011 TV documentary 'Operation Jericho', Air Historical Branch historian Sebastian Cox said 'one raid on a prison does not make it part of Operation Fortitude' and intelligence historian Mark Seaman said 'let's not fill up the gaps with 'possibles' 'make-believes' 'who knows'.
This is not a conspiracy theory, this is a sound evaluation of the evidence that currently exists. The Fortitude connection was arrived at not only by Dr Ducellier, who, (unlike Robert Lyman), actually knew and interviewed many of the Resistance Members in the area, but also the BBC Panorama programme. You should watch it, especially the interview with the SOE's Maurice Buckmaster, which is a classic! The blindingly obvious explanation of the raid's hurried nature was that the RAF senior officers had been briefed that the prisoners were going to be executed on 19 February, so delaying until an improvement in the weather on the 21st was hardly an option was it?! You clearly believe Robert Lyman's book and that's entirely your choice, but as historians ourselves, we know that Dr Ducellier's research is in a totally different league to that one.
You obviously believe everything the Daily Mail tells you 🙄
@@basfinnis haha! Oopsadaisy... Oh the irony... the Daily Mail went with/promoted the book with an accompanying story on 18 February 2014, with the salacious headline 'RAF deliberately sacrificed the lives of more than 100 French prisoners in daring air-raid in order to protect D-DAY plans, new book claims'.
@@WingleaderFilms Not entirely sure how resistance veterans then or after would have known what Fortitude planners in London were stragegizing...
Again, more than happy to believe any theory - as long as there is accompanying direct proof to substantiate it. In this case, there is no documentary or other proof provided whatsoever that even matches the words 'Amiens' with 'Operation Fortitude' together.
Operation mincemeat 2 much sig int from x-ray station.
👍