The Carlos Alcaraz Forehand (The "Next Gen" FH from a "Next Gen" player that is not a "Next Gen" FH showing that "Next Gen" FH is a totally useless label! ruclips.net/video/WWiqXyUqJkc/видео.html
Excellent video, and so logical. If there was one player, with tons of "flaws" in his technique, it was John McEnroe. But his coaches, like Antonio Palafox, and Harry Hopman, knew when not to meddle. His "back to the court" serve, his falling back on his backfoot backhand, his loose hand, racquet head hanging volleys. He was a stylistic nightmare. But it worked for him. Don't meddle. Borg's hockey style two handed backhand, Becker's serve, Nadal's finish behind the head forehand, Stefan Edberg's "weird" forehand, Connors jumping groundstrokes, Seles' two hands off both sides, not to meddle. And your best advice, don't copy other players' style. Develop solid fundamentals and you will acquire your own style naturally. Love your videos and teaching style. We can tell that you love to teach. 👏💪❤🎾
Great points Coach! My late coach used to say “I don’t care if your standing on your head, if you can hit the ball in middle of your racket, hit thru the ball and follow thru then that’s fine as long as you’re consistent.” I remember when Ivan Lendl’s forehand was being copied all over the place. Bottom line: as you say, all these players hit the ball in a different way but their basics are the same.
Well said. This a an important teaching lesson for coaches as well as players. Several years ago the semi western forehand was forced on me as the best forehand grip. I tried it for some time with mixed results. I finally said enough and gravitated to the eastern forehand grip which has allowed me enjoy playing tennis as well as being successful on the court.
Because tennis is such a difficult sport, its very easy to learn all the wrong things from look at pros. I recommend everyone find a good coach before getting a bunch of injuries from bad form.
Finding a coach who understands this and works with the player to develop an individual style that works for the student is almost impossible. I’m 54. Bad back, bad knee and shoulder issues from a job I did in my 20s that I shouldn’t have. There are certain movements I can’t do, but I’ve yet to find a coach who acknowledges my physical limitations and coaches accordingly. So I end up frustrated and coaches telling me I need to improve my fitness. Coaches tend to teach the exact same thing to all their students.
Yes, unfortunately that is true. I think one of the main reasons I really try to work within the realm of possible with my clients because I can't do a whole lot of things anymore and that was an eye-opener.
@@MeikeBabelTennis I have noticed a big difference in the way male and female coaches approach coaching. I've also become aware of the difference in coaching here in thailand and the West Coast of the US, which is where I spent 70 years of my life. It's very different here. The biggest difference is the cost of teaching children, and the basic attitude of the instructors.. and most all people in general. It seems to me the motivation in the usa is all about money. Testosterone plays a part too.
@@juju-rt8ek It is a lot about money and ego, yes. I teach the way I would have loved to be coached. The "modern" term for this is "student centered" coaching and it's more about figuring out things together and helping the athlete develop problem solving skills. Instead of just doing what the coach thinks and wants.
Someone told me that semi western forehand is the modern stroke. I tried it unsuccessfully so I decided to stick to my not so common Eastern forehand and I'm enjoying tennis again. Probably coaches think that Fed Nadal and the Djoker achieved so great results because of their shots and I would say their mind and mental strength is unique and is what took them where they are. There are so many different FH out there...How you can one say which is the best ?
If it doesn't work for you for whatever reason the "flavor of the month" is not for you. I think you're smart staying with the Eastern Grip and enjoying tennis that way.
Hi Meike, great conversation topic!!! If I am correct, Rafa's uncle in an interview said "Work with the player, not on the player" In his book, he says he never really liked Rafa's finish, Buggy Whip, but he was consistent with his forehand so he never changed it. It is something he would teach anyone to do. Thanks for the topic, nice work.
Hi Meike, I find your videos very, very good. I agree with you 100% in your video above. Many coaches, especially in the youth field, cannot distinguish between style and technical fundamentals. Many greetings from Germany
Das stimmt. Das habe ich auch schon so gemerkt. Ich habe auch schon Eltern gehabt, die mir sagten, ich solle doch bitte ihrem Kind die ATP Vorhand beibringen. 9 Jahre alt... Und er sollte doch bitte auch nur mit gelben Bällen spielen...seufz!
You are absolutely incredible and humble to make this assessment- I wish that more coaches were like you. Honestly I think that it has more to do with misogyny, as to why the ATP fh is celebrated more than the WTA fh.
You hit the nail right on the head. But, of course, if I were to say we're dealing with sexists who propagate the ATP forehand over the WTA forehand bc it's better then I'd be the feminist and get even more grief than I already do. So thank you for pointing this out!
@@MeikeBabelTennis Oh don't worry, you won't ever have to say it- I have no problem taking the brunt of their attacks. These dudes would have thrown all types of temper tantrums and called you all types of labels, just for telling the truth on their behinds. You do a great job and I'm glad that you are in the space!
Some of the best and most sound advice for tennis students! Excellent point and very well presented. Everyone’s biomechanics are different, do what works for you that still accomplishes the goal in the best manner possible. Be inspired by others ideas/motions but don’t copy them without a real reason to!
Came across your videos for the first time. Really refreshing, common sense approach. I chuckled at your Medvedev fh 😂. Your point on teaching following the current top ranked player is real wisdom. If the Medvedev forehand is the superior way today, what happens to teaching if Nadal makes it back to nr 1….?
There’s an interview asking WTA players who hit the hardest forehand, Sloan Stephens and Madison Keys were mentioned multiple times. Both players break the plane.
I like your teaching style! In my opinion the "ATP" forehand has more benifits than the WTA forehand , like more raquetheadspeed potential , therefore more power and spin. The shorter takeback gives your Tennis also an easier and cleaner contact point. WTA forehands are also great and definitily not wrong or something. My prediction is that in the next generations the ATP forehand will lead the technical Tennis world and its a good way. I teach the ATP forehand more cause of the benifits. When some of my students cant Handle this Type of technique, i will stay with there Personal style with a longer takeback and make them the best Player WHO is in them
from my limited experience of being a tennis parent, kids can't really switch to ATP forehand before 9-11 age. Their muscles are just not strong enough to do SSC. All correct forehands are similar. You either take power from the length of a swing or leg drive and SSC. Love your videos btw :)
I recently started to watch some other guys channel and wanted yo learn the ATP forehand and after a few sessions my shots were terrible, I saw your vídeo today and remember the basics and fundamentals and my game was way better, you are so right about this and it helped me a lot
Completely agree with you evolving into your style is not adapting to someone else’s style especially if you are having problems with contact and placing ball.
Code violation: Racquet Abuse Ms. Babel! J/K! I’m really glad you made this video, so many players decide to copy the pros and end up with bad technique or even worse injuries.
Ooops, I got one or two or three of those :-) Yup, I could list plenty of examples. But what I find worse is that a lot of kids quit because of that because they can't be successful and it's no fun. And I don't mean winning tournaments etc. Just simply not getting the ball in the court bc they have the wrong technique when kids with better technique leap frog them
Great video and great advice. I am one of those pesky beginner club players and I try hard, but I'm not doing so well. I will do what you suggested in this video and find out what works for me so I can be more consistent during my time of play.
The reason you cannot duplicate an individual's forehand is because the thing most people refer to as "muscle memory" is actually stored in your fat cells. Whenever you do anything involving the body as far as exercise your body stores the motion in your fat. If you've done said motion 10 million times vs 10,000 times you're going to see a vast difference in the mastery of said exercise. There are key checkpoints that most pros are hitting, I think there are huge benefits to being able to hit with power and also have a compact swing....which is exactly why you see it so much on the pro level. ATP vs WTA is also comparing apples to oranges but that is a topic that I could provide endless discussion upon. I will leave it with this, at the highest level you must swing through the ball quickly, if you are able to get away with a long wind-up/backswing means you inevitably have more time to hit said shot.
Great lesson in tennis and history everyone needs to hear this, it's heartbreaking to read the comments of people who have had problems with coaches, just terrible!! 😢 product knowledge is so important, know what you are paying for, anyone can say I'm a "Teaching Pro" I was lucky to receive excellent instruction from the start of my tennis many decades ago from tennis teachers who knew their stuff a couple are in the Tennis Hall of Fame unfortunately they are no longer with us. Great video and stories hope everyone will be ok 👍 appreciate! Now if I could only remember to move my feet! 🤪🙄
Interesting topic. There is a compact ATP style forehand wherein the racquet stays on the hitting side of the body and a WTA style with a bigger backswing. Two distinct styles. It is true. To be clear, some WTA players like Henin hit with an ATP style, so these are strictly styles that can be employed by either male or female players. My question is on the "lag and snap" that we often hear about. As mentioned in your lag video, if you keep the arm relaxed, the lag will naturally happen. Agreed. That makes sense. Is this "lag and snap" style found only in the ATP style? Or is "lag and snap" also found in the WTA style?🤔 Important to note that at contact, the wrist will be roughly in a neutral position. So "snap" should not be interpreted as severely flexing the wrist beyond the neutral position at contact; the wrist will be approximately neutral at contact. My guess is that the severe lag is found only in the ATP style, while the lag is much less severe in the WTA style. Much more subtle lag in the WTA. But I could be wrong on that.
What the lag looks like as part of the entire swing path will depend on the grip of the player. I would say you see more extreme grips on the men's side, maybe that's why. And I wouldn't be so averse to the ATP/WTA style (yup, it is style) if there weren't so many people who never taught screaming that ATP is better. It might be for some. For others, a pirouette combined with a cart wheel might be better.
Hi Meika As always great video. I wish I was closer to you so you could give me some lessons. You understand the game. I can relate to everything you say. We all have our own styles and abilities but what you give encourages you to think. I live in the UK and all the coaches I have come across want to do is to change my grip all except one who says if you can play like you do why change. We worked on my shot selection and court positioning. Money well spent
Preach sister!! I see some real stupid forehands on courts. Unbelievable how erratic those modern techniques are. Watch old Federer. He hardly shanked a ball.
If the player has developed their own style and they are hitting their forehand well, then probably should keep it. But if the player has a 1950's style forehand and its not working for them, then as a coach you should change it. Or if the player has an advanced forehand but its not working well in matches, then definitely there is room to change. It depends on the current level of the player. I changed my forehand 5 to 10 times until I found a style I liked.
All agree that style is minor compared to fundamentals. But there is actual controversy about what is considered style and what fundamental. Changing Keys' FH now would most probably fail, because, due to muscle memory it'd make things worse. But we don't know what would happen if this change was attempted at the age of 10, or 12. Same stands for Norrie's BH and serve. He obviously lacks fundamentals, but it's too late to fix them now. But what we see lately is a bunch of WTA players with a FH that has the ATP fundamentals, mainly the swift wrist lag (and not having already the wrist at the lagged position before the completion of the takeback). This doesn't mean that this fundamental will work best for all players. For example, the theoretically ideal serve would be to hit the ball at the apex (0 speed), but that's impossible for almost all players. But a low toss makes things much easier for serve consistency and accuracy. How low a toss can be optimally achieved by each player depends on individual skills. But all players must make an effort to lower the serve toss (that's fundamental).
This is a great video. I had similar experience in learning piano techniques as well. Great teachers/coaches are able to observe the student and make small tweaks that brings big improvements. Too often coaches are blind, demoralizing and messing up the student in the process.
My 12 year old Son has a Fully western grip, It seems with the same grip he switches to backhand .No time waste in the interchange . And every coach first wants to change his forehead grip . We are struggling with this right now. Any suggestions will be helpful.
Your fundamental assertion is that if you're making good contact with a big backswing, then you don't need to do anything to change. But what would you recommend if you do have a big take back and you're late on the contact? My daughter seems to have this problem and I don't know whether it's just not reacting soon enough or something else.
If you have issues with a bigger swing then, yes, by all means, work on reducing it if that is the reason. Sometimes, kids still have issues with perception, "seeing" the ball (speed, height of bounce etc) and that's the reason they mistime the shot.
She is absolutely right - it seems everyone is very cookie cutter now because juniors are not allowed individual style. Technically, Steffi Graf's forehand is late, but it was the GOAT. Thank god no coach told her to change it.
Hab heute morgen auch eine Demonstration von einem derartig falschen Aufschlag gesehen aber der Mann hat 150K auf YT. So einen Aufschlag hab ich noch nie irgendwo gesehen. Das einzige, was man ihm lassen muss, ist, dass er die Eier in der Hose hat, so einen Schwachsinn zu posten :-)
@@MeikeBabelTennis Und genau das ist das Problem an all dem Schrott, der da mitunter/grossenteils auf YT rumfliegt. Diejenigen „Instruktoren“, die sinnlos irgendwelche Techniken ohne Kontext und Konzept„zusammenbasteln“, um Anfängern zu „imponieren“ und vollmundig „versprechen“, dass der Abonnent in kürzester Zeit seine Vorhand in die Jack Sock-Peitsche „transformiert“, oder serviert wie Isner, gibt es zuhauf! Und diese Blender/Rattenfänger kriegen Follower en masse. Umso wichtiger ist, dass man (hier erstmal ich und die crew) beginnen, Dich adäquat auf den Plattformen zu propagieren. Im Sinne von: „Wenn Du fundamentales Tennis mit langfristigem Erfolg erlernen willst, dann abonniere diesen Kanal. Mehr braucht es nicht. Meike weiss wovon sie spricht und was sie tut. Weil sie es kann. Authentisch. Praxisnah. Ehrlich. Glaubwürdig. Professionell. Klasse!“. Hier kriegt ihr nicht nur den hot shizzle oder sinnloses show-off, bei dem ihr Euch schon kurzfristig Handgelenk, Ellenbogen, Schulter oder Hüfte schädigt, weil ihr extreme grips blind kopiert, Bewegungsabläufe nicht nachhaltig richtig anhand Eurer Möglichkeiten gewissenhaft und gründlich einübt, sondern konzeptionell durchdachtes, verständlich präsentiertes, unprätentiöses „ground work“ Auf die Schnelle getackert…😃 So oder so ähnlich. Ich „lade“ schon mal (auf dem rechten Bein), um die „all guns blazing / firing from all cannons MBT-Kampagne ins virale Universum zu schiessen“. Liebe Grüsse und weiter so.! Der Support in DE steht!
@@christophergerber6637 Super! Das finde ich supergeil, dass Du Dir die Mühe machst, mir so zu helfen! Auf dass wir die Welt des YT coaching umkrempeln :-)
Title seems click-baity b/c I suspect you'd teach someone the "ATP Forehand" if that was natural for them. I was taught to use a big wind-up WTA style but I had more issues w/ inconsistently turning out of it and worse I felt my rotator cuff would twinge. The ATP forehand made timing much easier and less strain on the back. I'm not sure but I believe Graf had a very compact FH that stayed mostly on her right side?
I will teach them the stretch shorten cycle forehand. I'll still not call it ATP forehand bc that's the whole point, women hit the SSC FH as well so it's just plain old wrong to call it ATP forehand. Yes, Steffi's forehand was really compact and also entirely unique to her. But, of course, everyone tried to press the girls into that swing and needless to say, none was ever able to copy it.
@@MeikeBabelTennis sadly there doesn't seem to be high resolution capture of Graf's FH. That was my favorite b/c it looked less complicated and very adjustable for high/low or fast balls. But it sounds like it maybe more complex than I remember.
She teaches adults exclusively and is capable of teaching either the ATP *style* forehand or the WTA *style* forehand. She prefers to call the ATP style forehand the "stretch shorten cycle forehand" but I think the stretch shorten cycle is also used in the WTA style forehand as well; just to a far lesser extent, so I think it is fine to label it ATP style and WTA style. Style is not necessarily tied to any specific gender as many women use the ATP style. The typical middle age adult 3.5/4.0 players will have trouble timing the ATP style forehand and will find the WTA style forehand more suitable. For example, RUclips Coach Ryan has taught hundreds of players for over 20 years and says that in his experience, about 1 in 3 adult students will be able to pick up the ATP style forehand.
@@Better_Call_Raul Interesting. Whatever you want to call the FH, the thing I'm surprised is the issue of timing. I feel that's easier as everything's kind of in front of you; power is less than a well hit wta windup. It's like a debate b/w straight arm and bent arm FH. I don't feel comfortable w/ straight arm. But I would not argue everyone should learn straight arm or bent?
@@rds4629 Keeping the racquet on the hitting side of the body is one of the main distinctions between the ATP style and the WTA style. Rick Macci and Brian Gordon say it is scientifically proven that the stroke is more compact AND more powerful than the WTA windup... The downside with ATP style that while the racquet is in front of you, it does need to "flip" and "lag and snap" after strings point straight down -- hence the timing problems with rec players. Whereas with WTA, the racquet face is more square to the ball... I think rec players would do better with the Agassi style where the stroke is compact but yet the strings are not pointed down and there is minimal lag and snap.
It is somewhat amusing how many controversies there have been over the years about juniors and even adults trying to reproduce whatever the perceived killer forehand is from a handful of elite players. As important as the stroke is, no other aspect of learning the game has more controversy and disagreement. A lot can be learned from what the pros do, but some individual outliers get away with doing everything unconventionally and trying to ape their exact technique often gets results that range from inconsistency to long term injuries, because if anyone thinks they are in their kind of shape, more often than not they are deluded. Last, what everyone thinks is the most effective is cyclical and changes from year to year/ decade to decade, and when you look back at it copying some of the things being copied in the past are almost laughable now. Anyone for Lendl's chicken wing forehand?
To use the word "wrong", is a misleading. A stroke in whatever sport, will always evolve over time to be more efficient. Individual style will always be part of sports, and kids will copy what they see their heroes doing. A simpler more efficient stroke will.lead to more consistency and in so, more success for a majority of tennis players
Yes!!!! I’m a teaching pro and I had a 3.5 42 year old come to me with a forehand that resembled this but her forehand was a mess. I could tell it wasn’t something that she just picked up out of nowhere. As we were working on straightening it out she mentioned that her past coach was teaching everyone the “ATP” forehand (she didn’t say ATP but that is what it was). That coach is known for that but it doesn’t work 🥺
@@MeikeBabelTennis Yes, teaching "everyone" the ATP style does not make sense because not every player will be comfortable with the ATP style. Cookie cutter teaching is a problem. *Ideally, a coach should have the knowledge to teach both the ATP and WTA styles* . The impression I get based on coaches comments are that about 30%-40% of their Adult middle aged 3.5/4.0 students will find the ATP style comfortable. Others will be more comfortable with the WTA style.
I think you're wrong here. The proof is in the pudding. Don't overthink it... The WTA forehand does not survive against the heavy and deep topspin of the men's game... swing path is too long which leads to many more errors. And it's more conducive to hitting flat shots than the ATP forehand, which allows the player to get massive force and topsin from the maximum racket speed of the dynamic lag. There's no lag in the WTA forehand.
At 0:59 you said of a very young Andre Agassi: "If anybody would have messed with that forehand, can you imagine what it would have done to him?" You don't have to imagine -- somebody did mess with it, because at age 15 he was hitting with an excellent WTA-style forehand instead: ruclips.net/video/P_FvVRxpftY/видео.html -- which is far superior to the one he was using in the photo at 0:34, whose path is mostly horizontal, vs. the mostly vertical swing up and around to contact that the modern forehand has.
It's best to only teach intermediate adults and intermediate and beginner kids. Beginner adults never last and they could never do Kyrgios forehand let alone a modern forehand. Pretentious and lazy mostly are the adult beginners when they don'r feel like it. We provide back way more than we charge. The average is $70/hr across the country. Plus when these kids make it to a $30,000 a year college we look like a bargain. We get them on the high school teams where they don't train them. They're expected to perform. I didn't make this up.
@@MeikeBabelTennis Just see your message 7 months after :) Currently I do a lot of reviews but I'm going to make videos again about technique and I want to talk about it differently, in a more flexible and intuitive way. Big fundamentals / some things that we often see but not mandatory, just strongly advised / and style stuff, depending on every player. I also have an english channel with less content and only reviews currently. I'll see if I talk about technique but there's already so much content in english. I would have to bring a new point of view. www.youtube.com/@team-tennisenglish1514 I often watch your content, it's great, congratulations.
Can't agree more... as a coach though, what do you do with a beginner and they are just a disaster... I mean they have no natural instincts for tennis... you got to start somewhere when they have no idea what to do... so I guess do you just try to teach low to high.. that was a common teaching method as you might recall in the 70s/80s... I mean take the racquet back make contact out front and finish high as simply as possible..
Yes, you really, really trim everything down and simplify. I also take into consideration what their goal is. I teach adults only and many of them just want to be able to play socially or have a parent/ child activity they can do together. Then I'll try to make them as successful as possible as soon as possible with very, very basic yet still fundamentally correct movements. If they get the "tennis bug" and they want to improve more, they got good, solid fundamentals we can build on and add to in complexity.
This makes perfect sense ! However would it be correct to say that the serve is a stroke to be effective HAS to be hit with a continental grip no exceptions ?
The Carlos Alcaraz Forehand (The "Next Gen" FH from a "Next Gen" player that is not a "Next Gen" FH showing that "Next Gen" FH is a totally useless label! ruclips.net/video/WWiqXyUqJkc/видео.html
Excellent video, and so logical.
If there was one player, with tons of "flaws" in his technique, it was John McEnroe. But his coaches, like Antonio Palafox, and Harry Hopman, knew when not to meddle.
His "back to the court" serve, his falling back on his backfoot backhand, his loose hand, racquet head hanging volleys. He was a stylistic nightmare. But it worked for him. Don't meddle.
Borg's hockey style two handed backhand, Becker's serve, Nadal's finish behind the head forehand, Stefan Edberg's "weird" forehand, Connors jumping groundstrokes, Seles' two hands off both sides, not to meddle.
And your best advice, don't copy other players' style. Develop solid fundamentals and you will acquire your own style naturally.
Love your videos and teaching style. We can tell that you love to teach. 👏💪❤🎾
Great points Coach! My late coach used to say “I don’t care if your standing on your head, if you can hit the ball in middle of your racket, hit thru the ball and follow thru then that’s fine as long as you’re consistent.” I remember when Ivan Lendl’s forehand was being copied all over the place. Bottom line: as you say, all these players hit the ball in a different way but their basics are the same.
Exactly! And you had a good coach :-)
Well said. This a an important teaching lesson for coaches as well as players. Several years ago the semi western forehand was forced on me as the best forehand grip. I tried it for some time with mixed results. I finally said enough and gravitated to the eastern forehand grip which has allowed me enjoy playing tennis as well as being successful on the court.
Good for you that you went back to Eastern. And good that you enjoy tennis again!
Because tennis is such a difficult sport, its very easy to learn all the wrong things from look at pros. I recommend everyone find a good coach before getting a bunch of injuries from bad form.
Agree
Finding a coach who understands this and works with the player to develop an individual style that works for the student is almost impossible. I’m 54. Bad back, bad knee and shoulder issues from a job I did in my 20s that I shouldn’t have. There are certain movements I can’t do, but I’ve yet to find a coach who acknowledges my physical limitations and coaches accordingly. So I end up frustrated and coaches telling me I need to improve my fitness. Coaches tend to teach the exact same thing to all their students.
Yes, unfortunately that is true. I think one of the main reasons I really try to work within the realm of possible with my clients because I can't do a whole lot of things anymore and that was an eye-opener.
@@MeikeBabelTennis I have noticed a big difference in the way male and female coaches approach coaching.
I've also become aware of the difference in coaching here in thailand and the West Coast of the US, which is where I spent 70 years of my life.
It's very different here. The biggest difference is the cost of teaching children, and the basic attitude of the instructors.. and most all people in general. It seems to me the motivation in the usa is all about money. Testosterone plays a part too.
@@juju-rt8ek It is a lot about money and ego, yes. I teach the way I would have loved to be coached. The "modern" term for this is "student centered" coaching and it's more about figuring out things together and helping the athlete develop problem solving skills. Instead of just doing what the coach thinks and wants.
Someone told me that semi western forehand is the modern stroke. I tried it unsuccessfully so I decided to stick to my not so common Eastern forehand and I'm enjoying tennis again. Probably coaches think that Fed Nadal and the Djoker achieved so great results because of their shots and I would say their mind and mental strength is unique and is what took them where they are. There are so many different FH out there...How you can one say which is the best ?
If it doesn't work for you for whatever reason the "flavor of the month" is not for you. I think you're smart staying with the Eastern Grip and enjoying tennis that way.
Great advice for coaches. Also, you have a terrific screen presence. A pleasure to watch and learn from you.
Thank you! That is very kind of you to say!
Hi Meike, great conversation topic!!! If I am correct, Rafa's uncle in an interview said "Work with the player, not on the player" In his book, he says he never really liked Rafa's finish, Buggy Whip, but he was consistent with his forehand so he never changed it. It is something he would teach anyone to do. Thanks for the topic, nice work.
How insane would that have been to change Rafa's FH!
That Medvedev forehand imitation is GOLD. LOLLLL
I'm not kidding when I say that I've actually seen a Russian coach try to teach that to someone recently. And I then had to "fix" it.
Couldn’t agree more. Emma Raducanu has atp style forehand but had to have wrist surgery at a young age.
Hi Meike, I find your videos very, very good. I agree with you 100% in your video above. Many coaches, especially in the youth field, cannot distinguish between style and technical fundamentals. Many greetings from Germany
Das stimmt. Das habe ich auch schon so gemerkt. Ich habe auch schon Eltern gehabt, die mir sagten, ich solle doch bitte ihrem Kind die ATP Vorhand beibringen. 9 Jahre alt... Und er sollte doch bitte auch nur mit gelben Bällen spielen...seufz!
You are absolutely incredible and humble to make this assessment- I wish that more coaches were like you. Honestly I think that it has more to do with misogyny, as to why the ATP fh is celebrated more than the WTA fh.
You hit the nail right on the head. But, of course, if I were to say we're dealing with sexists who propagate the ATP forehand over the WTA forehand bc it's better then I'd be the feminist and get even more grief than I already do. So thank you for pointing this out!
@@MeikeBabelTennis Oh don't worry, you won't ever have to say it- I have no problem taking the brunt of their attacks. These dudes would have thrown all types of temper tantrums and called you all types of labels, just for telling the truth on their behinds. You do a great job and I'm glad that you are in the space!
Word. Back up so swings down is relaxing tho.
Some of the best and most sound advice for tennis students! Excellent point and very well presented.
Everyone’s biomechanics are different, do what works for you that still accomplishes the goal in the best manner possible. Be inspired by others ideas/motions but don’t copy them without a real reason to!
Well said! Exactly how I strive to coach
Omg I love your teaching style! Where can I find you for lessons?!
I'm in Denver, CO.
Well said. I agree with everything you have told us. Now we just need a list of the essential things we must have.
Came across your videos for the first time. Really refreshing, common sense approach.
I chuckled at your Medvedev fh 😂.
Your point on teaching following the current top ranked player is real wisdom. If the Medvedev forehand is the superior way today, what happens to teaching if Nadal makes it back to nr 1….?
I tried really hard with that one!
There’s an interview asking WTA players who hit the hardest forehand, Sloan Stephens and Madison Keys were mentioned multiple times. Both players break the plane.
Agree!
I like your teaching style!
In my opinion the "ATP" forehand has more benifits than the WTA forehand , like more raquetheadspeed potential , therefore more power and spin. The shorter takeback gives your Tennis also an easier and cleaner contact point.
WTA forehands are also great and definitily not wrong or something.
My prediction is that in the next generations the ATP forehand will lead the technical Tennis world and its a good way.
I teach the ATP forehand more cause of the benifits.
When some of my students cant Handle this Type of technique, i will stay with there Personal style with a longer takeback and make them the best Player WHO is in them
from my limited experience of being a tennis parent, kids can't really switch to ATP forehand before 9-11 age. Their muscles are just not strong enough to do SSC. All correct forehands are similar. You either take power from the length of a swing or leg drive and SSC. Love your videos btw :)
Absolutely, totally agree.
You're absolutely right! This is one of the reasons I watch your channel. Thanks Coach!
I appreciate that! Thank you!
This is such an important message. Especially at the recreational level.
You're really good at putting things into perspective, Meike.
I recently started to watch some other guys channel and wanted yo learn the ATP forehand and after a few sessions my shots were terrible, I saw your vídeo today and remember the basics and fundamentals and my game was way better, you are so right about this and it helped me a lot
Completely agree with you evolving into your style is not adapting to someone else’s style especially if you are having problems with contact and placing ball.
Excellent advice to coaches and players.
Thank you!
Code violation: Racquet Abuse Ms. Babel! J/K! I’m really glad you made this video, so many players decide to copy the pros and end up with bad technique or even worse injuries.
Ooops, I got one or two or three of those :-) Yup, I could list plenty of examples. But what I find worse is that a lot of kids quit because of that because they can't be successful and it's no fun. And I don't mean winning tournaments etc. Just simply not getting the ball in the court bc they have the wrong technique when kids with better technique leap frog them
Great video and great advice. I am one of those pesky beginner club players and I try hard, but I'm not doing so well. I will do what you suggested in this video and find out what works for me so I can be more consistent during my time of play.
Love it, thank you.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Good content, but what are the fundamentals? Would be great if you link them in your descriptions. Thanks.
Good call! I will make a video on that!
Great video, coach Meike !
Thank you
The reason you cannot duplicate an individual's forehand is because the thing most people refer to as "muscle memory" is actually stored in your fat cells. Whenever you do anything involving the body as far as exercise your body stores the motion in your fat. If you've done said motion 10 million times vs 10,000 times you're going to see a vast difference in the mastery of said exercise. There are key checkpoints that most pros are hitting, I think there are huge benefits to being able to hit with power and also have a compact swing....which is exactly why you see it so much on the pro level. ATP vs WTA is also comparing apples to oranges but that is a topic that I could provide endless discussion upon. I will leave it with this, at the highest level you must swing through the ball quickly, if you are able to get away with a long wind-up/backswing means you inevitably have more time to hit said shot.
Well said.
I couldnt agree more. Right to the point.
Great lesson in tennis and history everyone needs to hear this, it's heartbreaking to read the comments of people who have had problems with coaches, just terrible!! 😢 product knowledge is so important, know what you are paying for, anyone can say I'm a "Teaching Pro" I was lucky to receive excellent instruction from the start of my tennis many decades ago from tennis teachers who knew their stuff a couple are in the Tennis Hall of Fame unfortunately they are no longer with us. Great video and stories hope everyone will be ok 👍 appreciate! Now if I could only remember to move my feet! 🤪🙄
I can remind you of that: MOVE YOUR FEET, NATHAN!
@@MeikeBabelTennis haha thank you Coach Babel! I'm still a work in progress! 😉 lol
Interesting topic. There is a compact ATP style forehand wherein the racquet stays on the hitting side of the body and a WTA style with a bigger backswing. Two distinct styles. It is true.
To be clear, some WTA players like Henin hit with an ATP style, so these are strictly styles that can be employed by either male or female players.
My question is on the "lag and snap" that we often hear about. As mentioned in your lag video, if you keep the arm relaxed, the lag will naturally happen. Agreed. That makes sense.
Is this "lag and snap" style found only in the ATP style? Or is "lag and snap" also found in the WTA style?🤔
Important to note that at contact, the wrist will be roughly in a neutral position. So "snap" should not be interpreted as severely flexing the wrist beyond the neutral position at contact; the wrist will be approximately neutral at contact.
My guess is that the severe lag is found only in the ATP style, while the lag is much less severe in the WTA style. Much more subtle lag in the WTA. But I could be wrong on that.
What the lag looks like as part of the entire swing path will depend on the grip of the player. I would say you see more extreme grips on the men's side, maybe that's why. And I wouldn't be so averse to the ATP/WTA style (yup, it is style) if there weren't so many people who never taught screaming that ATP is better. It might be for some. For others, a pirouette combined with a cart wheel might be better.
Another super interesting video! Thanks!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Important lesson, thanks Meike
You're welcome :-)
Hi Meika As always great video. I wish I was closer to you so you could give me some lessons. You understand the game. I can relate to everything you say. We all have our own styles and abilities but what you give encourages you to think. I live in the UK and all the coaches I have come across want to do is to change my grip all except one who says if you can play like you do why change. We worked on my shot selection and court positioning. Money well spent
Preach sister!!
I see some real stupid forehands on courts. Unbelievable how erratic those modern techniques are. Watch old Federer. He hardly shanked a ball.
Or now Alcaraz who is "Next Gen" and his forehand resembles Fed's more in grip and contact point.
@@MeikeBabelTennis 😁😁😁 ill take the most simple strokes over "any-gen"
More than reasonable ....
Well said. 👍🎾🙏
If the player has developed their own style and they are hitting their forehand well, then probably should keep it.
But if the player has a 1950's style forehand and its not working for them, then as a coach you should change it.
Or if the player has an advanced forehand but its not working well in matches, then definitely there is room to change.
It depends on the current level of the player. I changed my forehand 5 to 10 times until I found a style I liked.
All agree that style is minor compared to fundamentals. But there is actual controversy about what is considered style and what fundamental.
Changing Keys' FH now would most probably fail, because, due to muscle memory it'd make things worse. But we don't know what would happen if this change was attempted at the age of 10, or 12. Same stands for Norrie's BH and serve. He obviously lacks fundamentals, but it's too late to fix them now.
But what we see lately is a bunch of WTA players with a FH that has the ATP fundamentals, mainly the swift wrist lag (and not having already the wrist at the lagged position before the completion of the takeback). This doesn't mean that this fundamental will work best for all players. For example, the theoretically ideal serve would be to hit the ball at the apex (0 speed), but that's impossible for almost all players. But a low toss makes things much easier for serve consistency and accuracy. How low a toss can be optimally achieved by each player depends on individual skills. But all players must make an effort to lower the serve toss (that's fundamental).
Great video. I enjoyed it.
Glad you enjoyed it
Your videos are awesome and so helpful!!.
Glad you like them! Feel free to recommend my channel to your tennis friends.
This is a great video. I had similar experience in learning piano techniques as well. Great teachers/coaches are able to observe the student and make small tweaks that brings big improvements. Too often coaches are blind, demoralizing and messing up the student in the process.
So true!
Personally I can't stand that next-gen racquet tip facing forwards, elbow pointing backwards thing. It just looks silly and over-complicated.
You go COACH!!
Thanks BJ, You Rock!
My 12 year old Son has a Fully western grip, It seems with the same grip he switches to backhand .No time waste in the interchange . And every coach first wants to change his forehead grip . We are struggling with this right now. Any suggestions will be helpful.
ruclips.net/video/wpJy3bGtQKY/видео.html
Your fundamental assertion is that if you're making good contact with a big backswing, then you don't need to do anything to change. But what would you recommend if you do have a big take back and you're late on the contact? My daughter seems to have this problem and I don't know whether it's just not reacting soon enough or something else.
If you have issues with a bigger swing then, yes, by all means, work on reducing it if that is the reason. Sometimes, kids still have issues with perception, "seeing" the ball (speed, height of bounce etc) and that's the reason they mistime the shot.
She is absolutely right - it seems everyone is very cookie cutter now because juniors are not allowed individual style. Technically, Steffi Graf's forehand is late, but it was the GOAT. Thank god no coach told her to change it.
thank you
You're welcome
Great sharing about forms and styles !
100.000%. Dieses unsägliche „Kopieren“ der perfekten VH (RH, etc.) in den meisten YT-Kursen ist unfassbar! Was Du sagst ist völlig richtig! Saustark!
Hab heute morgen auch eine Demonstration von einem derartig falschen Aufschlag gesehen aber der Mann hat 150K auf YT. So einen Aufschlag hab ich noch nie irgendwo gesehen. Das einzige, was man ihm lassen muss, ist, dass er die Eier in der Hose hat, so einen Schwachsinn zu posten :-)
@@MeikeBabelTennis Und genau das ist das Problem an all dem Schrott, der da mitunter/grossenteils auf YT rumfliegt. Diejenigen „Instruktoren“, die sinnlos irgendwelche Techniken ohne Kontext und Konzept„zusammenbasteln“, um Anfängern zu „imponieren“ und vollmundig „versprechen“, dass der Abonnent in kürzester Zeit seine Vorhand in die Jack Sock-Peitsche „transformiert“, oder serviert wie Isner, gibt es zuhauf!
Und diese Blender/Rattenfänger kriegen Follower en masse. Umso wichtiger ist, dass man (hier erstmal ich und die crew) beginnen, Dich adäquat auf den Plattformen zu propagieren. Im Sinne von: „Wenn Du fundamentales Tennis mit langfristigem Erfolg erlernen willst, dann abonniere diesen Kanal. Mehr braucht es nicht. Meike weiss wovon sie spricht und was sie tut. Weil sie es kann. Authentisch. Praxisnah. Ehrlich. Glaubwürdig. Professionell. Klasse!“.
Hier kriegt ihr nicht nur den hot shizzle oder sinnloses show-off, bei dem ihr Euch schon kurzfristig Handgelenk, Ellenbogen, Schulter oder Hüfte schädigt, weil ihr extreme grips blind kopiert, Bewegungsabläufe nicht nachhaltig richtig anhand Eurer Möglichkeiten gewissenhaft und gründlich einübt, sondern konzeptionell durchdachtes, verständlich präsentiertes, unprätentiöses „ground work“
Auf die Schnelle getackert…😃 So oder so ähnlich. Ich „lade“ schon mal (auf dem rechten Bein), um die „all guns blazing / firing from all cannons MBT-Kampagne ins virale Universum zu schiessen“. Liebe Grüsse und weiter so.! Der Support in DE steht!
@@christophergerber6637 Super! Das finde ich supergeil, dass Du Dir die Mühe machst, mir so zu helfen! Auf dass wir die Welt des YT coaching umkrempeln :-)
Title seems click-baity b/c I suspect you'd teach someone the "ATP Forehand" if that was natural for them. I was taught to use a big wind-up WTA style but I had more issues w/ inconsistently turning out of it and worse I felt my rotator cuff would twinge. The ATP forehand made timing much easier and less strain on the back. I'm not sure but I believe Graf had a very compact FH that stayed mostly on her right side?
I will teach them the stretch shorten cycle forehand. I'll still not call it ATP forehand bc that's the whole point, women hit the SSC FH as well so it's just plain old wrong to call it ATP forehand. Yes, Steffi's forehand was really compact and also entirely unique to her. But, of course, everyone tried to press the girls into that swing and needless to say, none was ever able to copy it.
@@MeikeBabelTennis sadly there doesn't seem to be high resolution capture of Graf's FH. That was my favorite b/c it looked less complicated and very adjustable for high/low or fast balls. But it sounds like it maybe more complex than I remember.
She teaches adults exclusively and is capable of teaching either the ATP *style* forehand or the WTA *style* forehand.
She prefers to call the ATP style forehand the "stretch shorten cycle forehand" but I think the stretch shorten cycle is also used in the WTA style forehand as well; just to a far lesser extent, so I think it is fine to label it ATP style and WTA style. Style is not necessarily tied to any specific gender as many women use the ATP style.
The typical middle age adult 3.5/4.0 players will have trouble timing the ATP style forehand and will find the WTA style forehand more suitable. For example, RUclips Coach Ryan has taught hundreds of players for over 20 years and says that in his experience, about 1 in 3 adult students will be able to pick up the ATP style forehand.
@@Better_Call_Raul Interesting. Whatever you want to call the FH, the thing I'm surprised is the issue of timing. I feel that's easier as everything's kind of in front of you; power is less than a well hit wta windup. It's like a debate b/w straight arm and bent arm FH. I don't feel comfortable w/ straight arm. But I would not argue everyone should learn straight arm or bent?
@@rds4629 Keeping the racquet on the hitting side of the body is one of the main distinctions between the ATP style and the WTA style. Rick Macci and Brian Gordon say it is scientifically proven that the stroke is more compact AND more powerful than the WTA windup... The downside with ATP style that while the racquet is in front of you, it does need to "flip" and "lag and snap" after strings point straight down -- hence the timing problems with rec players. Whereas with WTA, the racquet face is more square to the ball... I think rec players would do better with the Agassi style where the stroke is compact but yet the strings are not pointed down and there is minimal lag and snap.
It is somewhat amusing how many controversies there have been over the years about juniors and even adults trying to reproduce whatever the perceived killer forehand is from a handful of elite players. As important as the stroke is, no other aspect of learning the game has more controversy and disagreement. A lot can be learned from what the pros do, but some individual outliers get away with doing everything unconventionally and trying to ape their exact technique often gets results that range from inconsistency to long term injuries, because if anyone thinks they are in their kind of shape, more often than not they are deluded. Last, what everyone thinks is the most effective is cyclical and changes from year to year/ decade to decade, and when you look back at it copying some of the things being copied in the past are almost laughable now. Anyone for Lendl's chicken wing forehand?
Absolute truth! Or Steffi Graf's hop/skip or whatever we want to call her very unique forehand footwork!
Smart!
Thank you
Nice hips
To use the word "wrong", is a misleading. A stroke in whatever sport, will always evolve over time to be more efficient. Individual style will always be part of sports, and kids will copy what they see their heroes doing. A simpler more efficient stroke will.lead to more consistency and in so, more success for a majority of tennis players
Yes!!!! I’m a teaching pro and I had a 3.5 42 year old come to me with a forehand that resembled this but her forehand was a mess. I could tell it wasn’t something that she just picked up out of nowhere. As we were working on straightening it out she mentioned that her past coach was teaching everyone the “ATP” forehand (she didn’t say ATP but that is what it was). That coach is known for that but it doesn’t work 🥺
Yes, that's cookie cutter teaching!
@@MeikeBabelTennis Yes, teaching "everyone" the ATP style does not make sense because not every player will be comfortable with the ATP style. Cookie cutter teaching is a problem. *Ideally, a coach should have the knowledge to teach both the ATP and WTA styles* . The impression I get based on coaches comments are that about 30%-40% of their Adult middle aged 3.5/4.0 students will find the ATP style comfortable. Others will be more comfortable with the WTA style.
I think you're wrong here. The proof is in the pudding. Don't overthink it... The WTA forehand does not survive against the heavy and deep topspin of the men's game... swing path is too long which leads to many more errors. And it's more conducive to hitting flat shots than the ATP forehand, which allows the player to get massive force and topsin from the maximum racket speed of the dynamic lag. There's no lag in the WTA forehand.
So many wrong things in a row, consecutively. Also women don't play against men...
@@MeikeBabelTennis I know that women don’t play against men but you can’t be teaching boys the WTA forehand. What am I wrong about? Point them out.
At 0:59 you said of a very young Andre Agassi: "If anybody would have messed with that forehand, can you imagine what it would have done to him?" You don't have to imagine -- somebody did mess with it, because at age 15 he was hitting with an excellent WTA-style forehand instead: ruclips.net/video/P_FvVRxpftY/видео.html -- which is far superior to the one he was using in the photo at 0:34, whose path is mostly horizontal, vs. the mostly vertical swing up and around to contact that the modern forehand has.
It's best to only teach intermediate adults and intermediate and beginner kids. Beginner adults never last and they could never do Kyrgios forehand let alone a modern forehand. Pretentious and lazy mostly are the adult beginners when they don'r feel like it. We provide back way more than we charge. The average is $70/hr across the country. Plus when these kids make it to a $30,000 a year college we look like a bargain. We get them on the high school teams where they don't train them. They're expected to perform. I didn't make this up.
200% agree. Nothing more to say. Focus on the fundamentals and don't confuse that with stylistic elements like many people do on RUclips.
Agree. And just subscribed to your channel. I don't speak French well enough but I get the idea in the videos!
@@MeikeBabelTennis Just see your message 7 months after :) Currently I do a lot of reviews but I'm going to make videos again about technique and I want to talk about it differently, in a more flexible and intuitive way. Big fundamentals / some things that we often see but not mandatory, just strongly advised / and style stuff, depending on every player. I also have an english channel with less content and only reviews currently. I'll see if I talk about technique but there's already so much content in english. I would have to bring a new point of view. www.youtube.com/@team-tennisenglish1514
I often watch your content, it's great, congratulations.
Im agree 100% if results appear, the style doesn't matter, but some couches want do a evolurion of the bio mechanics.
BR
Agree!
Can't agree more... as a coach though, what do you do with a beginner and they are just a disaster... I mean they have no natural instincts for tennis... you got to start somewhere when they have no idea what to do... so I guess do you just try to teach low to high.. that was a common teaching method as you might recall in the 70s/80s... I mean take the racquet back make contact out front and finish high as simply as possible..
Yes, you really, really trim everything down and simplify. I also take into consideration what their goal is. I teach adults only and many of them just want to be able to play socially or have a parent/ child activity they can do together. Then I'll try to make them as successful as possible as soon as possible with very, very basic yet still fundamentally correct movements. If they get the "tennis bug" and they want to improve more, they got good, solid fundamentals we can build on and add to in complexity.
This makes perfect sense ! However would it be correct to say that the serve is a stroke to be effective HAS to be hit with a continental grip no exceptions ?
Yes! There are some outliers who are slightly off (Becker for instance didn't have a full continental) but they are so rare.