Spot on. The huge card pool, massive player base, and huge variety of formats are the biggest differences that would keep the game alive when compared with MetaZoo. Desirability of cards and artwork would keep the collecting part of the hobby alive.
You really don’t understand the legal side or you would not say this. If they print new cards, they are defending the brand and IP. If they are doing that, they are a business and have to honor contract and promises still. Which means they can still be sued
@EdwintheMagicEngineer they can always be sued, doesn't mean they can win. Who are the parties involved and who signed the document? Can't be an oral contract if they sell to under 18yo or the mentally ill which are a lot of magic players and are only usually valid 1-3 years. Just an empty promise and definitely not a legal one. But you seem to understand everything so Idk why I bother.
From Edwin (we are having a hard time getting this to stay here) I do actually have a firm grasp on this topic yes. Do I understand "everything" or have I ever claimed that? No You need to learn about Promissory Estoppel (PE) based law. It's called an implied contract and that's exactly what the case against WOTC and the Reserve List is. Look up a video from Lior Leser channel called RUclipsr law about the Reserve List, he talks about and he is not a magic guy at all. PE implies contract law gets STRONGER not weaker as the years go forward and more proof is collected
@openboosters promissory estoppol has to do with contract law and you can't form a legal contract with people under 18 when they certainly sell packs to children under 18. Did you believe mcdonalds when they said the mcrib was never coming back too?
This video is why ABUR + 4 Horsemen will always be valuable in the long run. I can't see a scenario where they ever go down to zero except the post-apocalypse... And EVEN THEN!!! Haha
In the last few years I've done an Urza's block draft, Mercadian block draft, Invasion block draft as well as older sets. My play group always grabbs a few of the newest boxes to draft and play but we LOVE the older sets and the nostalgic factor is through the roof. We aren't going to stop until we're dead and God willing that's another 40+ years from now.
Great video, love to see you two back together! I'd like to add that Cubes are such a great way to customize your own mtg experience! I stopped buying cases of new sealed products last year, due to the ever increasing greed of wotc, buying singles only now, and making old school decks plus cubes for draft (or sealed), including set cubes, block cubes, a 95-99 nostalgia cube, and a LOTR cube. It's just so awesome!
The main fear I would have is what would happen to local gaming stores. Essentially what MTG does is pay the bills for many of these small stores. Magic has been so popular for so long that it's almost like guaranteed money. If shops can't sell MTG product how much harder will it be for them to stay in business? If new magic wasn't being printed I would bet that board games and models and other TCGs wouldn't provide a steady enough income to keep smaller shops afloat
Local game stores would have to move on sure... but they might do just fine if player made formats get stronger and they can make a good business out of selling singles. Remember that WoTC has already been taking LGS profits for 2 decades.
The secondary market would finally be able to settle the dust and price-out card value based on rarity, scarcity, and play-ability. It would take a while, but everything would eventually find a "happy" home. The sealed product "investor" inventory value would increase, even with the mass over-printings. Because there would be no more new products, the only way to draft or experience opening packs would be from these stocked sealed products. IF WoTC announced an end.. the market would be EXTREMELY volatile. People will try to sell fast, others will try to buy up the sales. It will be MTG30 on steroids. A lot of "investors" who aren't players (of any format) will likely try to dip out and put that money elsewhere. The biggest "winners" of the situation would be those with sealed product. The next would be the players who buy the crash and finally get those cards they've desired but were priced out of, and the final winners would be those who didn't panic sell and held out until the market rationalizes itself. There's enough open and sealed product openly on the market to last for decades... let alone personal collections and sealed product.
This is honestly a pretty valid take, and it's possible to work out like this. A few things I should mention though... Formats, whether they are WoTC created or player created very much drive demand for cards. One major reason the MTG market will never 100% settle out is because some formats might get boring and people make new formats/ways to play with the same old cards. It's VERY LIKELY that many of the best formats have never yet been created. Like combining together a base set + 4 expansions from all over MTG's history! No metagame exists for those new not-yet-created formats. My feeling is that there would be a big dip felt in almost all decades of MTG cards to some extent, then yeah some would generally rise back up and become hard to find. I agree there but I think it would ebb and flow for the next 100 years. Yeah sealed product would get a very special place of appreciation in a world like that.
I'm honestly surprised the WotC is still going with Magic. I thought, with the printing issues and the lack of originality in recent blocks plus with things like Mark Rosewater catering to specific groups of people in creating sets and the characters, that Wizards wanted to ditch Magic, at least in print form. Just my thoughts though. Take it with a grain of salt if you don't like it.
With the quantity of cards out there we can play forever i agree,great stuff guys thanks! Best format for me that we alwais play Pre modern 2HG 2HG Commander So awesome so much fun!
There really is not many replacements. Atleast they would sell it instead of stop. I think meta zoo a bit wasted the ip, but I guess they had gone through the options.
WotC quitting would be the best thing for the game at this point. They're trying to make Magic anything _but_ Magic now anyway. Old School and Premodern would carry on along like nothing happened.
100% agreed. In fact those formats might even grow since they are well established and there would be literally millions of potential new players looking to keep playing magic in established formats and that one has the legendary cards.
I play the old Decipher Star Wars CCG and the fan base is still very strong even after it all ended in 2001. They have a players commitee that runs tournaments all over the place and even create "virtual card" sets that change the card text and keep new gameplay going. Yes, many of the more common cards dropped in price, but the higher value ones maintained and even increased due to their rarity. The cost of unopened boosters went through the roof as they became more scarce. It all took a bit of time (this started over 20 years ago), but the game is still solid. I think there is enough of a MTG fan base to keep this game going for a long time (with or without official support)! 😁
Wouldn't the value of all Magic cards tank if it's technically a dead card game? PS... Hasbro would never allow it. They need the revenue. It makes up too much of their overhead.
WotC would only stop printing Magic if the player base stopped buying their new cards. They only stop if it's no longer profitable. The game would practically have to die before that happened. Many card values would crash due to lack of player participation, prior to WotC deciding to stop producing new cards.
Three things: If wotc stopped printing magic I think it would die off slowly at first and then rapidly later on, forming a small core of players who truly love it. Part of magic is the new cards and the hype they create (although they really need to slow down on how much they put out in a given year). Ice Age was when I got into magic... Alice sound like a nostalgic but also awful format. lol In regards to formats I have a format that I have always wanted to try but don't have the players around me anymore to try it. In theory it fixes the problem of "mana screw/flood".
That core of players who love it scenario perfectly describes the people playing Old School 9394 format. And there is around 25k to 40k people in that group at least, which sounds tiny. BUT... since the major cards in that format have print runs of 12k to 40k supply and demand from the people who want them keeps the prices up. This is the very reason Ice Age cannot get price traction, there is just too much of it compared to the core people who love it.
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer Well, what I mean is a core group of players who like who still play the Star Wars CCG from Decipher from back in the day. The core group will be much bigger obviously since Magic is considerably larger than Star War CCG. What I meant about the Alice format is that a lot of the Ice Age cards which seemed much weaker than those that came out in the four horsemen sets of ABU, AB, Leg, Dark. I remember when Baludvian Horde came out and everyone thought it was going to be the next Juzam Djinn...but it didn't quite pan out.
@@TheMr02drop Yeah I remember Balduvian Horde going for $20 each and people were so impressed with it. Terror, Swords to Plowshares, Unsummon, Boomerang and others were just SO good against it that it never panned out. Personally I think it's perfectly fine for cards to not be as good as other similar prints from other blocks or decades. The trick for those cards having value always comes down to how many people want those cards compared to the supply. For example if somebody made a Onslaught block format and it became very popular you would see cards that suck in other formats suddenly commanding value.
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer True. But the format needs to be fun to play right? In my opinion Onslaught block wasn't fun to play. I played A LOT of it back in the day and morph was just really unfun. It always either take a chance and hope it wasn't Exalted Angel or Zombie Cutthroat. And in limited you almost always had to block because of Skirk Commando. lol Goblins were so good in that block with Sparksmith too. I think I'd rather play Alice than Onslaught, Legions, Scourge block. Cards during the time of Ice Age block just had a different feel to them compared to cards these days...almost like they weren't perfectly designed so it was more fun trying to get them to work.
@@TheMr02drop I feel like this is missing the point. The point I was trying to make was not about Onslaught, but about the game overall and that formats can be made using only certain sets and drive people into those cards. But about the onslaught set specifically, remember that when you played it before you played it along with other sets that adjacent to it. Did you ever try Onslaught, Mirrodin, Masters 25, and Ice Age? Perhaps that combination would yield all kinds of decks that people have never seen before and previously boring cards were suddenly bombs in that format. Does that make sense? The combinations in MTG are VASTLY unexplored.
tbh. I think that with the amounts of cards that exist, I think magic will continue., but with user created formats. I think commander will remain. Maybe a Pauper like commander format would arise. I think the prices of cards that are good and always will be in demand, will hold prices, to some extent. ETC. I
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Very good talk, I agree on every point! Thanks to the two of you
Spot on. The huge card pool, massive player base, and huge variety of formats are the biggest differences that would keep the game alive when compared with MetaZoo. Desirability of cards and artwork would keep the collecting part of the hobby alive.
Scrying means looking into the future.
The Scryings Old School set, pulls cards from future sets into the Old School format.
They would 100% print reserved list before they stop printing cards
You really don’t understand the legal side or you would not say this.
If they print new cards, they are defending the brand and IP. If they are doing that, they are a business and have to honor contract and promises still. Which means they can still be sued
@EdwintheMagicEngineer they can always be sued, doesn't mean they can win. Who are the parties involved and who signed the document? Can't be an oral contract if they sell to under 18yo or the mentally ill which are a lot of magic players and are only usually valid 1-3 years. Just an empty promise and definitely not a legal one. But you seem to understand everything so Idk why I bother.
From Edwin (we are having a hard time getting this to stay here)
I do actually have a firm grasp on this topic yes. Do I understand "everything" or have I ever claimed that? No
You need to learn about Promissory Estoppel (PE) based law. It's called an implied contract and that's exactly what the case against WOTC and the Reserve List is. Look up a video from Lior Leser channel called RUclipsr law about the Reserve List, he talks about and he is not a magic guy at all.
PE implies contract law gets STRONGER not weaker as the years go forward and more proof is collected
@@openboosters yeah it's the weirdest thing... EVERY time I posted that comment it was removed. I even tried doing from a different account (this one)
@openboosters promissory estoppol has to do with contract law and you can't form a legal contract with people under 18 when they certainly sell packs to children under 18. Did you believe mcdonalds when they said the mcrib was never coming back too?
Hasbro and WotC could stop printing Magic cards today and people would still play Magic for 100 years.
Exactly right. And the most fun cards that are ACTUALLY rare would remain valuable.
Metazoo is far superior than MTG and should not be mentioned in the same sentence. Metazoo to the moon baby!
was*
It never was to be honest. Im glad metazoo is over. @@hamsamich9
This video is why ABUR + 4 Horsemen will always be valuable in the long run. I can't see a scenario where they ever go down to zero except the post-apocalypse... And EVEN THEN!!! Haha
Let’s hope wotc doesn’t stop printing magic. What happened to Metazoo is heartbreaking for the fans
In the last few years I've done an Urza's block draft, Mercadian block draft, Invasion block draft as well as older sets. My play group always grabbs a few of the newest boxes to draft and play but we LOVE the older sets and the nostalgic factor is through the roof. We aren't going to stop until we're dead and God willing that's another 40+ years from now.
Try 3x the Dark 3x Fallen Empires draft. More fun than you would think.
Great video, love to see you two back together! I'd like to add that Cubes are such a great way to customize your own mtg experience! I stopped buying cases of new sealed products last year, due to the ever increasing greed of wotc, buying singles only now, and making old school decks plus cubes for draft (or sealed), including set cubes, block cubes, a 95-99 nostalgia cube, and a LOTR cube. It's just so awesome!
Great point! I forgot to mention cubes! They are one of my favorite ways to play magic too!
The main fear I would have is what would happen to local gaming stores. Essentially what MTG does is pay the bills for many of these small stores. Magic has been so popular for so long that it's almost like guaranteed money. If shops can't sell MTG product how much harder will it be for them to stay in business? If new magic wasn't being printed I would bet that board games and models and other TCGs wouldn't provide a steady enough income to keep smaller shops afloat
Local game stores would have to move on sure... but they might do just fine if player made formats get stronger and they can make a good business out of selling singles. Remember that WoTC has already been taking LGS profits for 2 decades.
I have no clue what meta zoo is and i plan on keeping it that way
it was a 4 year rug pull pokemon knockoff card game. That's all you need to know.
The secondary market would finally be able to settle the dust and price-out card value based on rarity, scarcity, and play-ability. It would take a while, but everything would eventually find a "happy" home. The sealed product "investor" inventory value would increase, even with the mass over-printings. Because there would be no more new products, the only way to draft or experience opening packs would be from these stocked sealed products.
IF WoTC announced an end.. the market would be EXTREMELY volatile. People will try to sell fast, others will try to buy up the sales. It will be MTG30 on steroids.
A lot of "investors" who aren't players (of any format) will likely try to dip out and put that money elsewhere.
The biggest "winners" of the situation would be those with sealed product. The next would be the players who buy the crash and finally get those cards they've desired but were priced out of, and the final winners would be those who didn't panic sell and held out until the market rationalizes itself. There's enough open and sealed product openly on the market to last for decades... let alone personal collections and sealed product.
This is honestly a pretty valid take, and it's possible to work out like this. A few things I should mention though...
Formats, whether they are WoTC created or player created very much drive demand for cards. One major reason the MTG market will never 100% settle out is because some formats might get boring and people make new formats/ways to play with the same old cards. It's VERY LIKELY that many of the best formats have never yet been created. Like combining together a base set + 4 expansions from all over MTG's history! No metagame exists for those new not-yet-created formats.
My feeling is that there would be a big dip felt in almost all decades of MTG cards to some extent, then yeah some would generally rise back up and become hard to find. I agree there but I think it would ebb and flow for the next 100 years.
Yeah sealed product would get a very special place of appreciation in a world like that.
I've been playing in a Dorm Daze (1993-1999) league for a while now. It has its own restricted and banned list. Lots of fun.
I'm honestly surprised the WotC is still going with Magic. I thought, with the printing issues and the lack of originality in recent blocks plus with things like Mark Rosewater catering to specific groups of people in creating sets and the characters, that Wizards wanted to ditch Magic, at least in print form. Just my thoughts though. Take it with a grain of salt if you don't like it.
With the quantity of cards out there we can play forever i agree,great stuff guys thanks!
Best format for me that we alwais play
Pre modern
2HG
2HG Commander
So awesome so much fun!
HEY We're not old! We're just well seasoned 😅!
nope, still would play it . been playing since 1993 .. nothing would change with me ...
Rudy can keep the supply of boxes going for years...at a steep price increase lol
secondary market would panic and shut down - collectors would sell or loose
There really is not many replacements. Atleast they would sell it instead of stop.
I think meta zoo a bit wasted the ip, but I guess they had gone through the options.
After the colon is cleared lmao. Nice. ❤❤❤
I could see Magic discontinued for a year or two, Hasbro selling it, then some else picking it back up when demand goes up again.
that should've been done with World of Warcraft which was Magic's closest competitor with Pokemon ahead of both.
WotC quitting would be the best thing for the game at this point. They're trying to make Magic anything _but_ Magic now anyway.
Old School and Premodern would carry on along like nothing happened.
100% agreed. In fact those formats might even grow since they are well established and there would be literally millions of potential new players looking to keep playing magic in established formats and that one has the legendary cards.
I don't think WotC is the main issue. There is a lot they are doing well like limited design but sales department and lead has gone crazy.
@@Possu81 Magic is the greatest game on Earth made by some of the worst people on Earth. (not everybody in WoTC, just many who call the shots).
I play the old Decipher Star Wars CCG and the fan base is still very strong even after it all ended in 2001. They have a players commitee that runs tournaments all over the place and even create "virtual card" sets that change the card text and keep new gameplay going. Yes, many of the more common cards dropped in price, but the higher value ones maintained and even increased due to their rarity. The cost of unopened boosters went through the roof as they became more scarce. It all took a bit of time (this started over 20 years ago), but the game is still solid. I think there is enough of a MTG fan base to keep this game going for a long time (with or without official support)! 😁
As a past SWCCG player I definitely would agree with you. Magic essentially would become an open source game IMO in the future
I still build Prem-Ref2 swccg decks! Play occasionally. Just such a great game.
Its been 30 years. I don't think that will ever happen. Atleast let's hope not.
Most people only care about sanctioned play. The prices would drop very fast even on old stuff if suddenly there was no official support.
Wouldn't the value of all Magic cards tank if it's technically a dead card game? PS... Hasbro would never allow it. They need the revenue. It makes up too much of their overhead.
WotC would only stop printing Magic if the player base stopped buying their new cards. They only stop if it's no longer profitable.
The game would practically have to die before that happened.
Many card values would crash due to lack of player participation, prior to WotC deciding to stop producing new cards.
Three things: If wotc stopped printing magic I think it would die off slowly at first and then rapidly later on, forming a small core of players who truly love it. Part of magic is the new cards and the hype they create (although they really need to slow down on how much they put out in a given year).
Ice Age was when I got into magic... Alice sound like a nostalgic but also awful format. lol
In regards to formats I have a format that I have always wanted to try but don't have the players around me anymore to try it. In theory it fixes the problem of "mana screw/flood".
That core of players who love it scenario perfectly describes the people playing Old School 9394 format.
And there is around 25k to 40k people in that group at least, which sounds tiny. BUT... since the major cards in that format have print runs of 12k to 40k supply and demand from the people who want them keeps the prices up.
This is the very reason Ice Age cannot get price traction, there is just too much of it compared to the core people who love it.
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer Well, what I mean is a core group of players who like who still play the Star Wars CCG from Decipher from back in the day. The core group will be much bigger obviously since Magic is considerably larger than Star War CCG.
What I meant about the Alice format is that a lot of the Ice Age cards which seemed much weaker than those that came out in the four horsemen sets of ABU, AB, Leg, Dark. I remember when Baludvian Horde came out and everyone thought it was going to be the next Juzam Djinn...but it didn't quite pan out.
@@TheMr02drop Yeah I remember Balduvian Horde going for $20 each and people were so impressed with it. Terror, Swords to Plowshares, Unsummon, Boomerang and others were just SO good against it that it never panned out.
Personally I think it's perfectly fine for cards to not be as good as other similar prints from other blocks or decades. The trick for those cards having value always comes down to how many people want those cards compared to the supply. For example if somebody made a Onslaught block format and it became very popular you would see cards that suck in other formats suddenly commanding value.
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer True. But the format needs to be fun to play right? In my opinion Onslaught block wasn't fun to play. I played A LOT of it back in the day and morph was just really unfun. It always either take a chance and hope it wasn't Exalted Angel or Zombie Cutthroat. And in limited you almost always had to block because of Skirk Commando. lol
Goblins were so good in that block with Sparksmith too.
I think I'd rather play Alice than Onslaught, Legions, Scourge block. Cards during the time of Ice Age block just had a different feel to them compared to cards these days...almost like they weren't perfectly designed so it was more fun trying to get them to work.
@@TheMr02drop I feel like this is missing the point. The point I was trying to make was not about Onslaught, but about the game overall and that formats can be made using only certain sets and drive people into those cards.
But about the onslaught set specifically, remember that when you played it before you played it along with other sets that adjacent to it. Did you ever try Onslaught, Mirrodin, Masters 25, and Ice Age? Perhaps that combination would yield all kinds of decks that people have never seen before and previously boring cards were suddenly bombs in that format.
Does that make sense? The combinations in MTG are VASTLY unexplored.
I’m a set collector strictly pre 2001 this sounds like good news either way
tbh. I think that with the amounts of cards that exist, I think magic will continue., but with user created formats. I think commander will remain. Maybe a Pauper like commander format would arise. I think the prices of cards that are good and always will be in demand, will hold prices, to some extent. ETC. I
Edwin is back!
Hey Edwin does exist!
What happens to fine art when the artist dies?
yeah that same kind of effect could happen
Sure, why not.
OPEN MAGI
Blasphemy