Do you really NEED analog gear for mixing music??
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- Опубликовано: 15 сен 2024
- Do you really NEED analog gear for mixing music in 2022??
My name is Paul Third and I am a Scottish youtuber / audio engineer / mixing engineer / audio geek. I mostly cover audio engineering related content ranging from audio plugin shootouts / plugin comparisons (acustica audio plugins, universal audio etc etc) to actual analog vs digital / gear vs plugins plugin tests via access analog and mix analog. I even include ddmf plugindoctor tutorials in my plugin reviews so you can be your very own plugin tester and experiment and understand whats actually going on under the hood. I also discuss digital music distribution from time to time and like to give my viewpoint on online music distributors such as onerpm and distrokid.
All of my audio blind tests involving music production software are conducted in avid pro tools 2021 which is my main daw and I also use HOFA blind test 4U as my blind test software. In terms of my audio interface I record and monitor through my audient id44 and use an audio technica AT2050 for all of my voice overs.
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VERY IMPORTANT
This is *NOT* a video about which is better. It's *NOT* a video about tracking or recording. It's about mixing today in 2022 and based at new engineers learning their craft.
The question isn't which is better.. Its if you *NEED* analog gear for mixing. Not want, not about what others do or use .. Do you NEED expensive analog gear to make a hit record or mix that would happily be accepted by a client or label.
The answer is simple: No!
ruclips.net/video/ETqncRvQHWk/видео.html
You never had to have analog gear for making hits… you have to have a perfect musical vision.
Was gonna say that you're missing out on the key thing analogue gives you - and that's in recording imo. Only way around that is powerful DSP-kinda shit atm. And you're probably better off buy a hardware knock-off than buying Pro Tools Carbon. But let's be real about this too: Using hardware in recording is great, BUT only if you have the experience necessary to do it right. Otherwise you screw yourself over, because you simply can't undo the processing afterwards.
Absolutely not. Most clients let alone labels or listeners wouldn’t be able to tell between two mixes of the same song, one using hardware and one using software. They might like one better than the other but they wouldn’t know why without telling them. Then again, that’s probably also true of many new engineers learning their craft.
As a producer and mixing engineer in Botswana Africa, hardware doesn't matter coz it's too expensive and you have to order from another country 😢so I use Gem Overload, Slate digital, PA and Softube. recently added Pulsar modular p42. They get the job done and if I'm being honest, the consumers don't care about all this just us nerds😂
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Sounds like a pain in the ass to get gear there. I feel for ya. At least you're getting it done regardless. I salute you.
Good choices, I live in Fort Lauderdale Florida in the USA and love those same brands. All solid. Love softube and PA
@@commonsense5188 bro it's crazy being in Southern Africa. Currency rate is 1US=11bucks(pula) in my currency so even plugins are expensive. I recently bought Slate VSX for about 5k in BWP which is still a lot. My mastering engineer lives in South Africa which is another country. Like I said it's crazy out here
Come to the USA ITS FREE ASK BIDEN
This topic for me is about 15 years old. When I was working as a marketing director in two of the biggest digital brands I had the chance to talk to the developers directly. I learned a lot about the math behind audio. In these times the second wave of the digital companies entered the market. Since then many big and famous recording studios doesn't exist anymore and countless commercial songs are produced in entirely in the digital domain.
It takes time when a new generation and their tools replace the older generation. But it always is an improvement. My conclusion is: Everyone hast his own tools and workflow to archive the best possible results, when he has creative talent.
If your production doesn't sound competitive it is definitely not the missing of expensive hardware tools! This was very different in the old days. Demos in small studios sounded almost always much worse than the recordings in big studios - because the gear made the difference.
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Man, you have such an entertaining style to tell us about plugins I could listen to you the whole day🚀
That's what happens when edit 43 minutes down to 18 🤣
Thank You,Paul,for a great video! As soon i reached the exact results with plugins In The Box,and the mixes sounds deeper and fuller sometimes,than the mixed with hardware,- that was the moment,where i understood,that using the right plugins,that you know well, and that brings the results,that you want,- that is the key for me. It's the same,as to paint the picture,- if i have right brushes,and painting technique,- that is all i need for great painting.I still use hardware for recording,but the all the rest - ITB.
Very well said. To me, it's all about knowing your tools inside out. Regardless of what they are. A good craftsman can work with mostly any tool
@@PaulThird I completely agree with you, Paul. In short, I want to share my thoughts - even about the plugins themselves - when I studied for myself thoroughly among the tons of all the ones I have, sometimes 10-20 of them are enough to get the result, and enjoy the mixing process. But that's another topic .. Thank you very much, Paul, for your videos, in which you share really useful information in an argumentative and constructive way!
Paul, have you thought about having an online spreadsheet with a list of analog gear shootouts you've done and the closest plugin you've found for each one? It would be a great buying wishlist for all of us. Keep up the amazing work!
It's a video idea I'm contemplating
@@PaulThird it would be awesome!
@@PaulThird plz do this
Ended up just making a video. Got 20k views. Decent return
ruclips.net/video/YaW4uYkX9Pk/видео.html
I dunno why I never actually stay in touch with many Scottish engineers. I think cause we all know there is hardly any work haha on the East Coast there is nothing. No bands, no artists. Dead as a dodo. If this was the doghouse days during the indie boom with today's technology...would've been making a f*cking killing!!
I was always like, "I love me some outboard gear and analog knob twiddling 😌" but recently I've been thinking of it more like photography. I'm sure there are a lot of people that develop their own film because they feel like it's an important art form to them, but I'll take Photoshop or Gimp 9.9/10 thank you very much😋
One of the greatest quotes I heard from an old pissed guy in a boozer
"Life's too short to be f*cking about with shit that don't need f*cked about with."
He was talking about keeping your nose out of other people's business and relationships but I instantly thought of gear 🤣
Thanks, great video! Your accent is so heavy for a swiss guy to follow u, but I'm getting into it :) ! 12 months later, got it! Keep it up!
I speak slower these days purposely but I dunno how you managed a year ago. I was REALLY fast haha
Just wanted to comment on this as have been mixing purely in the box for years... up until recently. In my experience, yes you absolutely can mix in the box 100% and get great results for clients (predicated on you knowing what you're doing). If you are also then sending your mix to external mastering engineers for them to run your mix through analogue gear, then that (should) smooth out any digital artifacts and give the mix added depth.
However.... I have recently invested around £5k in several hardware units, to run client tracks through. The reason: A lot of clients are now recording their material at home and quite often using poor units, preamps to record. This doesn't stop the client from wanting a CLA quality mix. Being able to run these tracks through the new hardware makes improving the source tracks easier from a workflow perspective mainly because you can get them mix ready on low CPU, less plug in reliance and lower overall aliasing. I've chosen hardware that gives me analogue saturation and colours and transformer weight as well as an SSL type bus comp. These things are hard to get right in a plug in, not least because of the need to avoid aliasing distortion. These plug ins need to offer oversampling and not all of them do. Plus as I now own these units I can 100% say that nothing I've heard comes as close as you'd like in either audio response or the sound it imparts. The Distressor is a good example as I also have the Softube Eli pack which has distressor circuit emulations. I also have a Fusion and neither SSL or Acustica have nailed the sound of that.
Also Paul just to offer an alternative view to your comments on whether a mixer is good or not because of a reliance on analogue or otherwise. As an analogy that would be like saying that a carpenter who is set in his ways and won't use the new black and decker multi-tool isn't good at his job because he won't try it. Yet people see a lot of unique beauty in what they create. What if the items the carpenter crafts are unique simply Because they use their old gear? I see the value in both approaches, there are invaluable plug ins out there for sure. But I can honestly say that these new hardware units have allowed me to get from A-B on the mixes I've used them on in a much quicker timeframe, with better overall results.
My point is the reliance. A good craftsman can use any tools. The point is that if for whatever reason their old trusted tools were broken or stolen they could still produce the same quality of product.
I personally believe that given a well modelled and coded emulation I could get most stuck on a blind test with their hardware.
Depends on the emulation. Personally I prefer softube Mike-e to a hardware distressor all day long and as much as ssl or acustica can't get the SSL sound I don't actually like the fusion and wouldn't use it. It's just taste like a plugin. Just my opinion after my tests. For me in regards to the hardware fusion drive section the free gsat+ gets much better results to my ears.
But we are all different. You feel the investment gets you better results where with me, there is not one piece of analog equipment that would make my mixes better. I just know as I'm yet to try one that has gave me that extra 5% or whatever it is. If I hadn't stumbled upon timP, arturia stuff and UAD.. Probably would agree but you do you man.
You won't find me telling you that you are wrong as its just what you hear and feel. It is what it is
However, we can agree for those starting out.. You don't NEED analog gear
@@PaulThird thanks so much for reading the comment and then also for the detailed reply. I honestly don't think you are wrong mate and I apologise if I sounded like I was criticising your opinion mate, far from it. Many amazing mixers today are just in the Box, including a lot of guys that I hold in very high regard. Personally, I just wanted to expand into having hardware to help with workflow (CPU load has been reduced by over half) and having a few different flavours to add to the pot. Also having direct access to true analogue harmonics is very cool as well as the sense of added weight and openness on the 2 bus over the SSL type plug ins I was using. Whether anyone else will hear that when all is said and done is negligible, but it's working for me at least.
The Fusion is a fantastic end of process colour box, it's not for everyone, but does help to achieve a good stereo width and increased percived loudness.
As we all know hardware units vary from unit to unit and plug ins do not and I guess that's where my most of my interest lies.
I'm still very much using plug ins mate and they are great, the Mike-E is fab, I just haven't been able to get the same response on material that I can from the Distressor. In saying this they are very different hardware units in the first place, so you can't really compare them like for like.
I think the beauty of the actual Distressor is in it's versatility as a unit, emulating various compression styles and so you can put it on a lot more programme material than the MiKe-E.
I also looked at how much I'd spent on plug ins and on Acustica alone it was nearly £1500, that's about the price of the Distressor and as you rightly said mate, their compressors are not the best. So I thought why not (going to sell some licenses now 🤣) I Love the EQ's though. I love the Arturia 1176 and use it on everything, it's great. 100% agree with you Paul, that you don't "need"any hardware, it's just about flavours at the end of the day. As always mate, thanks so much for the video and giving us all your time and thoughts, it is much appreciated.
That is the benefit of acustica is the sell ons haha I just enjoy discussing it all tbh. I much prefer talking to guys like yourself that's bought stuff having good experience with the plugins. Mixing is all about taste and we all definitely hear differently from another in some way or form. I know I don't like the fusion BUT I could understand why somebody would and that's the thing I always try and remember.
In the same way I'd use TimP's ra6 (ba6a) if I wanted a vintagey warm gluey piano sound you could hear it and go nahhhh no way. I prefer an la2a, or a vari mu.
Its just taste at the end of the day. Its what gives us our edge and our own sonic character. If somebody was to start agreeing with me on absolutely everything and using everything that I use I'd start to get a bit worried 🤣
@@PaulThird haha yes mate, gotta love the Acustica sell-ons!! Ahh honestly Paul, I love watching your vids and you are one of the few guys on here that you can really trust with regard to lifting the murky veil on how good a plug in is going to be and whether it will suit what you do. We're always learning no matter what level you're at or get to and you are an absolute legend for helping out the community in the way that you do.
I've still yet to grab Nebula and get into the Tim P stuff and I will get around to that. That will be down to you good sir and your high recommendation!
@@CraigScottFrost Hey Craig, that's awesome! I genuinely think Paul is on the money with what he is saying. If you have a chain that works well for you and you're happy with where you are getting your mixes then go for it buddy! Most client's aren't going to know what gear you have and will judge your work on how it sounds. Of course it's always against their own vision of what they want as they make the decisions, but lack of hardware is not a reason to hold back from putting yourself out there mate. The Fusion is a great tool for warming things up through a transformer and that was the hardware I got first, it's a personal thing, but I love what it brings to a mix. Access Analog are offering something very cool, by providing a service where you can use one without the hassle of committing to a finance agreement or creating a large immediate hole in the Bank Account haha! I think we'll see a few more of those companies spring up soon. Take care Craig and happy mixing mate!
Hi Paul !!
Congratulations!
Im a grammy award recording mixing engineer and i own my own room wih a rack of analog equipment
Not too much but fancy stuff
beside that every time i mix i can tell you that less and less sessions i use it
and plug ins as analog equipment is just that .
Tools
the only thing that i can defend analog as owner of expensive equipment is just the long tern investment that my money is not going to devaluate
as polug ins is just code then the value goes down
But thats another topic
you are 100% Correct thei are just tools are you good enough then drive the speakers as they should
Yeah from an investment point of view analog definitely holds it worth but I've always wondered if they'll be a time that it starts to slow down. I think the Klon going for 5k+ has shown how crazy it is just now but be interesting to see where the market sits in another 10 years
@@PaulThird that’s true but I think the value of hand made equipment that I have the pleasure to own I’m pretty sure is going to be there .
Then also you have surface mounted gear that one as you said is going to be interesting to see the market in a couple of years
I see tape machines holding value as its still a well crafted machine and it's proper audio history but I dunno about compressors and eq's.
I think the 500 series has started a shift in analog where its become slightly more affordable but less quality and warm audio and klark technic offering cheaper alternatives are kind of slowly depreciating the market as you are seeing more of these units in studios.
Access analog and mix analog have also kind taken the allure from it as you can just stream the gear lossless so I do think that certain gear will hold value due to rarity and history but I also think that a lot of more common gear will depreciate as well.
I think cause so many engineers will be hybrid or mostly fully ITB in the future it'll change the landscape. Not saying a pultec will become as useless as a VHS player but I think that technology will become the thing that future engineers aspire to invest in.
UAD luna for example is still in its infancy but you can see where the tech is headed with real time dsp. It can only get more advanced and you just need to look around at older engineers now getting into atmos to keep relevant and in work.
The landscape is massively shifting
@@PaulThird yes that’s correct
But eventually as you say been practícale and fast results wich digital can give us a lot of speed and flexibility .
We might get into a point that the actual hardware is going to get behind the digital in all aspects.
Let’s see what the future tells
Good one Paul
FANTASTIC video! I built my entire RUclips channel (this one) from this idea! I stand behind the idea that people are better off without analog outboard gear. Great video!
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I’ve been producing and mixing/mastering for about 3 years now, and I am super attracted to hardware. Hardware synths help me be more creative than soft synths. But I am also level headed and know it isn’t going to give the extra 5-10%. In the future when I have excess money, sure, I’d love to have a hybrid set up and more analog synths and analog equipment, but I know right now that I don’t need it, and plug-ins can basically take me all the way. Great video, thank Paul.
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I'm so glad you do these videos. It's really helped me find the right plugins for what I want. You do very indepth comparisons. You deserve more subs and I'm sure you'll get em.
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Good point. In my workflow the only outboard gear I consider is the hardware needed for tracking. Pre + eq + Comp. Lightly processed of course. And a cheap hardware reverb to add only in headphones when I sing or play guitar. For the rest everything can be done in the box. Ps In addition, eq plug ins can do a lot more than hardware.
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tracking a band with hardware and a professional mixing console is far superior for capturing the harmonics of the interaction of every instrument than in the box... people won't hear it but it can be felt.. after that you mix full ITB without worries.
That's why i focused the discussion solely on mixing 🤓
True .
good stuff fam.. will you ever make a video listing a list of plugins you think comes close to hardware according to your test.. im sure most of us here would be interested. thx looking forward for the next vid.. kudos
ANALOG HARDWARE VS DIGITAL PLUGINS: ruclips.net/p/PLmcBOB8VmXMI_rvJtWcGnXpnBbWDK8jQL
Another angle: For mixing ITB is a good way to save on your electricity bills (and better for the environment) compared to hardware.. Obviously you will still be running a computer, interface and monitors but with energy prices increasing it makes sense.
Yeah I see people having to run fans and stuff cause the tube stuff can get so hot haha I grumble about puting the wee fire on never mind a a few fans for my gear 🤣
Thanks for sharing this Paul! You are by far the most detailed person and determined person that I've come across regarding finding the gems. It would be awesome to if you kept an updated list of plugins that are better or the same as the hardware.
Tbh its mostly all timP and uad haha acustica get close with some of their eq's and arturia are great but it's getting access to the hardware that's the issue to test a lot of it
ITB compressors id say you can't go wrong with Tim's stuff. If you think I'm detailed at finding the gems, he's even more detailed at recreating them haha
@@PaulThird you're videos have really helped me have confidence that I have picked the best tools available. To be able to listen and make my own decisions has been so valuable. Thank you! I'm also skint because of you hahah
I didn't end up picking up that N4 so it's still sitting on my to buy list!
Could be worse.. Could be buying hardware 🤣.. If I said to my wife that I was gonna spend 3 grand on one compressor she'd f*cking drop kick me hahaha
@@PaulThird no video that week then! Lol
late to the video, just found your channel yesterday, absolutely enjoy every video, you are great dude! this peobably wont get seen but talking about arturia, id love to see your take on their sitral eq
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After 30+ years I've just gone full circle and bought a 4-track cassette deck! I couldn't ditch analogue fast enough when digital first appeared but now I realize that creative tools need to be able to work as fast as I do - this, I think, is where digital emulations fall flat... the sonic result is close enough "in the mix" so I'm not precious about analogue/digital in that respect - but, I can still dial in a vocal EQ at light speed compared to using a mouse one parameter at a time. I have hardware control surfaces but with their endless "fly by wire" knobs they feel sluggish and imprecise compared to an actual potentiometer or fader. Analogue hardware also encourages you to use your ears more than your eyes... and muscle memory combined with two hand action allows you to "play" an EQ or console like an instrument while "tuning" the settings. It's an emotional connection more than a technical one... so do we need analogue gear in 2022? Hell ya! 😈
That's where I can't really argue haha the workflow thing does have a psychological difference. I think I work pretty damn quick on plugins but I do use the ID function when using plugins so it's more tactile so I can't really say there isn't a psychological thing going on. Does it make better mixing decisions.. Doubt it.. For me anyway but I definitely couldn't go all analog. I couldn't go back to the days of patch bays and inserts and stuff. I despised all that working on the consoles. I never used their gear and always used plugins cause I despised the routing so much haha
@@PaulThird Totally agree re patchbays... so my current setup has all analogue units perma patched so I can do the routing in the DAW. As I'm "old skool" I don't need recall because when I'm happy with something I commit to audio - minor tweaks that may need to happen will be accomplished with plugins because I've done 95% of the tone shaping already. It works for me!
@@mixphantom0101 *works IF you also record the music you mix
Hi Paul. Please make a podcast about mixing/audio/production. I would become your most faithful listener 🤠
linktr.ee/produce_like_a_pro_podcast
Yea everything can be done in the box with pro results. To my personal taste i do hybrid mixing and mastering as i love the saturation and colors from good hardware, especially saturation and analog summing to have more natural sounding productions. Loads of saturation plugins do cause Aliasing so thats why i dont use them for that. To me hardware adds depth, weight and reduces harsness which i cant get ITB or at least not that easily. But in the end its all about skills and how good your monitoring system and acoustics are, most problems in releases today are caused by lack of that, not because of “not having hardware” or “only ITB mixing and Mastering”. Cheers and nice vid
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Just get the best possible recording on the way in with a couple of nice pieces of analogue gear which don't have to cost a fortune, then enjoy the enormous choice of quality plugins when you mix and make something great. Bottom line, I wouldn't swap all my plugins for the equivalent value in analogue gear no matter who is impressed by it.
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I think this is solid advice for mixing, but perhaps a good distinction to make would be analog for recording - in particular pre-amps. For those starting out, invest in your microphones and pres before splashing out on hardware EQs and Comps.
An excellent point! Buying a Golden Age Pre-73 definitely helped me get better-sounding vocal recordings.
That's why i said mixing though. I want to completely seperate tracking from mixing in regards to this topic
@@BrunodeSouzaLino This, too. In fact, buying a good microphone should take precedence over buying a good mic pre.
There are fantastic pres on the market for very cheap. The Camden Pre 500 from Crandorne is under 350 quid per channel and I prefer it to the RN Shelford Channel in A/B/X. No need to spend more than that on a pre IMO in 2022. The specs compare to DAD AX32 pre amps which are 10x the price.
Things I love about plugin emulations of hardware versus the actual hardware. I can own more than one and keep both of my kidneys. I can save and recall settings at will. I can take my favorite plugin emulations with me on my laptop.
And the most important reason, 99.9% of the people who consume my work can't tell the difference or care that I used a plugin to deliver the track they are listening to.
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Well said, Paul. Analog gear won't make our songs sound better. If someone claims it will, they're hoarders, not mixers.
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Yay, you finally revealed the results! Still more results I'm waiting on. It's a weird thing.. some things I hear instantly and some things I simply don't hear. There are shootouts where you say it's clear as day to you and I get 1/3 of the blindests wrong in my first attempt (which is the only one that truely counts imo) and there are some where it's rather clear to me, while others say it's very close. Sometimes I feel bad about not hearing things others hear, but I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that it's only partly "training"/"good ears" it's ALSO that we simply hear differently. Our focus is different, our perception is different, everything is different. BUT that's only true for the little details, when it comes to the things that really matter and everybody hears, most people can agree - music wouldn't work if that wasn't true.
We all definitely hear things differently id say.
Human Brains are super complex. Sometimes my wife says.. "Paul did you take out the bin" and I hear "do you want to have sex?"
A lot of the time it's where your focus and priorities lie 🤣🤣
Happy day for Gerhard! hahahaha
@@PaulThird critical listening Paul, not only useful in audio! But maybe she's playing games - in which case I suggest answering:
"I took out the trash" and when she confronts you about it later on (because you didn't) say: "Babe.. I said: "I'm shook up and sad" and all you answered was: "great, thanks!" And when she investigates why that was your response to "Paul did you take out the bin" you can simply say you heard "Paul, tell me how have you been?"
Obviously you'll lose this game, because it's your wife. But at least you had fun!
Tbh half the time I'm away in another world and I've not even realised she was even speaking to me 🤣
@@PaulThird I knew I recognized you from somewhere!!! hahahahahahaha!!!!!
I'm a guy that has built his own LA-2A, 1176, and a simplified topology of the Fairchild 670. I really enjoy customization, so building them was heaps of fun. While I do not in any way rely on my analog pieces, I take great pleasure in using them. I happen to use my HW 1176 and plugins side by side in many of my mixes. While I prefer my HW, I wouldn't hesitate to use plugins in all other non-critical positions. I'm not one of those guys that prints tons of tracks through one piece - it makes recall very difficult. If someone stole my hardware, my mixes would still sound like I was the one that mixed them.
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I run through analog gear for important tracks like vocals. It’s minimal. I’ll load certain things into new DAW sessions running at 192 just to get rid of some aliasing before bouncing back into orig 48k session (at end of mix; level matched). FabFilter doesn’t need it though since their internal oversampling is as good as you can get. Since I do t know about other companies, I do that just to be/feel safer 🤷🏻♂️ I’m tellin’ ya, I can hear the difference.
great point about hardware weight. LA2As do this noticeably even more than 1176.
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end listener does not give a toss how you got there , unless its really obviously sounding harsh or dull or cloudy , then they might say ' what the hell is wrong here ' but in the end if it sounds like a record , it is a record. its the song that matters , or the sounds and arrangement that matter far as my experience goes.
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Hardware can be useful in a minimalist digital setup either on the way in, the way out, or both. For example, a preamp and compressor for tracking and maybe a mixbus-style compressor and/or program EQ on the other end. If you have the means to do any of that, it can be useful and helpful but certainly will not make or break your mixes.
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When using the real thing and the plug in person the real thing blows it away 80% of the time. It's really an accumulative effect on a whole digital mix vs a hybrid mix. Oh, and there are multiple stereo Pul Tecs on the market now (stam, etc).
Its really funny, Been using access analog recently with the ManleyVariMu and then because of your review I bought Magenta It was virtually identical to the hardware. Yesterday I was mastering a song and using AA VariMu again, then noticed something was happening to the vocal( had a great sound from the compression but doing funny stuff). My time was up and decided to see if I could get a different sound from the Magenta to fix the issue and noticed the same thing in the vocal. I was flipping back and forth asking myself" It must be in the mix" cause the Magenta was treating it exactly the same as the HW. MindBlown!! Kapow!
I always feel better when others confirm my tests haha that's why i always do tests others can do themselves
Need? Nah, not really (few exceptions). We agree here.
Sadly it's still the case that a decent amount of clients & labels continually demand name-brand toys to play with. I lost a label client once years back because my pre was an SPL and not an Avalon. It's absolutely ridiculous considering the only reason they were having the conversation to begin with was that studio's end result. 🙄
Then again, sometimes a mixing studio isn't always a recording studio that mixes.
I can't believe that somebody would prioritise a mic pre so much. Its not even like an SPL is a cheap pre haha
You could possibly argue with a microphone if it really was key to their vocal sound and performance and all you had was a 57 but a mic pre isn't going to change the world.
Way too much emphasis put on gear. I was speaking to a big engineer over lockdown and he told me that he had agreed to work with artist he'd worked with before pre lockdown and as soon as he told them that he couldn't mix the album on his SSL they wanted to postpone the album till he could get back in the studio.
He had to actually convince them that he uses the SSL more for faders and automation. They were so invested in the belief that his sound came from that desk that they were thinking about going elsewhere.
He mixed the album in the box in his own studio .. And guess what.. The artists manager said to him
"I'm so glad that it stlll sounds like you mixed it cause we were worried that without the console we wouldn't get your sound"
That really offended him and he's actually kind of struggled to transition back to the SSL as from a mental standpoint he feels like the SSL almost defines him when really he sees it just as a mixing tool. It doesn't define his sound. It's just a very expensive controller to him. He likes the workflow and uses the EQ and comp from time to time but he was pretty offended that people thought he needed the console.
@@PaulThird yeah, I'd be pretty offended too.
'and 2 days later that client received a notice of rate increase for future productions citing 'inflation' 🤣
One more thought. The nightclubs in the 1970s and 1980s spent so much money on speakers and analoge gear. Those clubs (playing vinyl records) just sounded so much better than the MP3 digital files played on a current digital sound system. For example go listen to a McIntosh tube amp and then go listen to a new digital system. You just can't deny that the tubes add color that sounds amazing and can't be reproduced digitally in my opinion
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Ggod video Paul. Just bought Magenta 5. I do think that mixing in the box is very good and plugins are almost there however I think that hardware can get you there faster. For me hybrid is still the best.
Yup. I have been mixing ITB since Day 1 almost twenty years ago. And it was simple: because I could. If I had waited for the day to get all of this outboard gear ... I will still be waiting. I worked with what I had and I accrued knowledge and experience (and continue to do so). I'm at a point where I am fairly confident in my own abilities and can generate "professional grade" results.
Honestly, I can't help but see the "analogue gear is better" as a passive-aggressive FU to anyone who wants to get into music production/audio engineering. "Oh, you're not a *real* mixing engineer if you don't have that Pultec EQ or Fairchild compressor". Furthermore, as you've pointed out in other instances: 1) for most of the gear made at the time, the goal was optimal transparency (in other words, no colour), 2) mastering the fundamentals is more important than anything (i.e. knowing how and when to use a compressor). So honestly, the "analogue sound" is kinda BS.
And yes, your "favourite company in the world" was part of my beginning =D. Admittedly, I still use Waves ... but I've also used other things since then and will continue to use whatever I think will work for whatever material I have. (I'm still making my own stuff, but I would like to get to a point where I am working on other people's material).
One of the best comments I've had in a long while tbh. True talk about making the best with what you've got and using your own skills and learning to get the best out of those tools.
I actually couldn't agree more with this comment haha the *real* mixing engineer stuff was really what made me take this channel further as I was so done with the elitist bullshit you get online, especially when I was making friends with guys who were mixing itb and getting millions of streams every year from their mixes.
Full time engineers and constantly busy.
"still use Waves"...
Waves has a couple true-blue world class pieces that stand with the absolute best of the industry. The endless amount of shovelware they also have and keep on releasing changes nothing. People who think all of their plugins are sub-par and dated are just jumping on a bandwagon without knowing their stuff
Id say their early tools like axxecomp, rbass, rvox, rverb, maxxbass etc have stood the test of time but a lot of their analog emulations don't hit the mark in terms of today's standards in my opinion. No bandwagon, just using my ears in my tests. Kramer pie was a bit of a shock to me as the rest didn't do anything for me but a good shock none the less.
I rate waves in regards to making useful tools, like went back to de-breath this week and learned it a bit better and I can't believe the difference it made to my voice overs. Yeah you'll get the odd breath sneaking through but the breath reduction in combination with the gate in the plugin really is a life saver and on this voice over it worked better than a standard gate and I'd say 90% of breaths were removed without too many noticeable artefacts.
I believe their mixing tools have their place but their analog emulations on the most part are less than desired but that's just me being honest. They are outdated compared to the competition. No oversampling and lots of emulations simply just don't have any thd in them
If a tool works great for me then I don't give a f*ck who makes it
@@PaulThird yeah absolutely, I wasn't talking about you, that's why I mentioned this goes for people who think *all* of their plugins are dated. There are plenty who do, it's a fashionable opinion
I agree somewhat. The only thing is incoming signal recording works best then going into an interface raw and unprocessed
that's why im solely speaking about mixing. Most mix engineers have no control over how things are recorded. You work with multitracks starting out you are dealing with what you are given. I'm trying to seperate tracking from mixing in this discussion
You won't need to argue with this. +1 for jackin' in the Waves membership plan. SALE £29.99!!! Jees what a sucker I was. Thank you for the great upload!
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very intresting video, thanks for share your experience
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Thanks You for shareing your knowledge
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There's lots of inexpensive analog gear. My console was not expensive in the long run. It was used, not one of the prized relic types. Just use the tools you have that sound right.
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Can You make A same Video for
Monitor Vs Headphones 🎧 (open back)
Because Many Mixing Engineers Don't have access or are not in the position of Having a Monitors due to Their environment.
Like what to look for when you are buying a headphones for mixing and mastering
I use hifiman sundaras through a topping headphone amp and I've been getting the best results I've ever had. That's really all I have in regards to that topic
Paul, great video which pretty much nails how I also think about these things. My story is pretty common now in that I've never used hardware and have been ITB since day 1 (even if day 1 was actually 1999 for me!). That means a) I'm totally confortable with the UI of plugins, b) I don't hanker after the sound of my treasured 1176/LA2A/etc but ... c) I continually wonder if my mixes would be better if I went hybrid. Maybe just for the master bus, or maybe the vocal chain or, what the hell, maybe the whole damn thing!
But even though I haven't auditioned any hardware I do listen to a lot of comparisons and my general conclusion is that there's good hardware and bad hardware, there are good plugins and bad plugins. But the real difference is the skill of the engineer both in terms of choosing the right tools and knowing how to use them.
The only other conclusion I come to is that hardware is generally more forgiving when you get to the extremes. Plugins allow you to do stuff which you just can't do with the hardware (and wouldn't want to) and where the algorithms just break down and don't work.
So I, personally, totally agree with your conclusions here although can't say 100% that they are right. Keep doing what you're doing. I really enjoy your channel.
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you are my only trusted sources i believe in every word you say you like the Wikipedia and google for me so thx 4 everything.. Q:whats the best emulator for every plugin? this will help us a lot and save us a lot of $$$
I've tested a lot but I've not tested that much 🤣
@@PaulThird thx 4 ur response..i know u didn't test everything but at least the ones u prefer thee most like an ssl eq \\ssl bus comp \\ssl comp \\la-2a \\saturation\\delay \
everb \\ the commons ones
You can ask and id tell you but it's still just my opinion at the end of the day. You'd be better to watch my shootouts that way you can see which I prefer but also hear for yourself if you agree
Hello Paul, Thank you for your opinion, as always very informative.
To help you with the youtube algorithm I'll write my own experienced opinion about it....hahaha
I've been doing this for a while as well. I think everything comes down to what sound you have in mind. When compared to hardware, my plugins doesn't sound as good, talking about compressors specifically, but the hardware unit gives me a reference of sound to try to replicate it with plugins,. With a distortion plugin plus a compressor I could get closer but without the reference of the real unit I couldn't know what to shoot for. For Michael Brauer, Mister Scheps and others, it's little easier because they already have their sound in mind and the tools to accomplish that in the box. I honestly find really hard to control the dynamics of things with plugin with home recorded material, like mic into a sound interface captured material. I really feel the compressors in the box are more difficult to handle, specially the release time in the compressors seems a little odd.
Everyone can process their sound and it will be fine most of the time, but for the type of music I make, which is acoustic, like jazz and Brazilian music, the sound quality depends directly of how good recorded the source is. Player, acoustics, mic pre, eq, compression, composition, arrangements, good mix, good master are what makes the tracks we hear as reference to shine really. It's the sum of those little 5% of differences that at the end makes a 100%, or maybe 200%...hahaha
When I record drums here, I feel it's insanely difficult to mix with sampled instruments, like piano from keyscape for example. That piano sounds really good and full by itself, but it makes my drums sounds like shit. But doing another experience, recording a real piano and playing my drums on top of it, well...still sounds like shit.....hahaha...maybe it's me....
take care Paul...
Keep the light on! Thank you again for your videos, keep doing it.
cheers
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interesting but having seen a number of interviews with well known mixing engineers a lot of them see digital plugins as far more flexible and don't have the limitations of analog
Yup analog has a LOT of limitations. I couldn't be arsed with it. Pain in the arse in my setup haha
@@PaulThird exactly, it takes up room, needs servicing, is expensive to buy, has limited to zero recall and costs in electric to run. Is it really worth that for the 'mojo' not for me
My reason for getting some outboard gear is that I can dial in a tone more intuitively. I absolutely dislike dialing in a 1176 or SSl 4000 on a screen with my mouse. I don't know what it is :) But I use them for specific things. Like recording bass through an 1176 or so. Otherwise I'm perfectly happy with plugins. I wish I had a stereo master EQ and maybe I'll get a Tegeler Creme for that or their Stereo Pultec. But yeah for me it's mostly about the tactile / intuitive feedback, I can close my eyes, hands on the knobs and explore without being distracted with all the visuals. Doing that with a mouse is not impossible but harder / less fun.
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@@PaulThird Also do you check your IG DM's? :)
It's less about need.. and more about want 🙂Plugins are SO good these days for getting tones, I just personally enjoy working with hardware and investing in a physical product, the best of both worlds!
As an artist engineering/mixing my own work, I can be as decadent as I want with my art... now if I was a working mix engineer that needed all the tools of the trade (re-call etc.) I would have to re-think things for sure and question whether hardware is necessary.
I think realistically as a mixer on today's world you would only buy hardware as a psychological tool to attract clients. When I speak to many working engineers it's all about processing power, workflow and time management. If you are investing in anything hardware related then a big factor is how solid the drivers and support are.
Its hardly ever anything about sonics and more about workflow. That's why the biggest mixers pay editors to liase back and forth with the producers team and ensure all the files are there, condolidate them, and then take out any pops or unwanted issues so when the mixer gets to the computer it's just a case of pushing faders and being creative.
Trust me, when you only have a small budget but you are getting work, efficiency is every thing. Hardware isn't efficient it's something I find people invest in when they've got all the workflow stuff nailed down.
For example I was in a studio 2 weeks ago with an amek console and lots of gear and they never use it as its just a pain in the arse. I was surprised as there was a tube tech comp there and they told me that it had a L+R imbalance and has been sent back 3 times and couldn't be fixed. They said they just can't rely on hardware and as soon as they got used to digital a very long time ago they just moved itb. I've been in 3 studios this year and for mixing none of them use their gear but what we all agree on
"looks good through eh" haha
I totally agree! This has essentially become a taboo subject on forums as it always descends into chaos :-) There is so much cognitive bias going on (as well as commercial interests). The tools are absolutely there to do 'that sound' ITB, but it does take some skill and patience.
Yes.. A LOT of experimentation.. BUT.. Totally worth saving literally thousands for the sake of 2-3 hours mucking about testing. Those luddites baffle me that complain that "I don't have the time to do all of this testing" when really I'm like.. "well maybe that's cause your having to work overtime to pay for your expensive gear".. Like seriously how many mixing jobs would it take them to be able to justify investing that money on gear, especially if its their full time income
Analog gear shines while recording and becomes less necessary when mixing.
I wonder if the UAD unison stuff has bridged the gap for those tracking?
Well, you don't really need much of anything. Solja boy's "crank that" was recorded on the original Mbox with a $70 dollar Marshall MXL mic plugged directly into the Mbox with no fancy $3000 mic pre. The software he used was fruity loops 5 with all stock sounds and plugins. No saturation or compression on the master bus, just some mastering limiter making it loud asf and sold 10 million copies. There are people on major record labels who have access to million dollar studios and top notch engineers who can't even sell two copies, so what does that tell you?
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Hardware is not about sounding better (which very often it does, if you still buy mono pedals, it's your own fault, there's a gazillion awesome stereo pedals out there), but about the USER EXPERIENCE. Instead of "programming a patch", I twist a few one-function-per-knob-knobs and LISTEN to the result. Instead of spending even more time in front of a screen, I actually PLAY an instrument. That's why I prefer hardware, it's about the process of making music. Also show me a plugin that does a super saw like a Roland JP-8000. Good luck 😝
Most important thing in this topic is, your ability
100% 🤓
@@PaulThird and, I'll like to see a video about "ssl plugin " filters. Because, if I cut 100 hz low filter, I discovered that it's not cutting and I use plugin doctor to see what's going on. I suprised, than I try waves ssl, I suprised, than I try ssl channel, I sulrised. And other emulations too. Non of them cutting them value that writes on the low cut.. Check that out if you can sir. I think this pretty strange.
It's possible that the hardware doesn't cut at exactly 100hz. Many times devs accurately model the hardware which includes inaccuracies as well
Need? No, I 100% agree.
Want? That’s a whole different story, lol. There are definitely a few things I would love to have, and to ultimately put together a hybrid setup with most things still in the box, but a handful of hardware for tracking, and a couple of hardware units to use in a mastering chain.
That said, everything I actually NEED to mix (and master, for that matter), is in the box and in this day and age hardware is a luxury.
I was very careful with the title haha I knew i had to put NEED in there and enforce that or my comments section would fall to shit 🤣
I went ahead and did this too, but mainly to make my job more fun. If you ever looking to get a phenomenal and HUGELY cost effective mastering EQ, the engineer from Decca studio in London made Broadhirst GDNS No.3, an exact replica of the Decca EQ. The 500 series unites are under 400 a channel, and the mastering version, which I have is only €1300. Its the most versative EQ I ever used. Check gearspace for some reviews or just write to him, Mick will answer any questions and support is basically like a personal service.
Thanks for this video, Paul. You put this out right as I started thinking about buying some hardware compressors... and a studio desk with rackmounts... and an Audient id14/44 for the analog sends... and so on into infinity
I've been there...but never having the money 😂
Ive started using Analog Gear (SSL. 2+ interface, Analog Rack, and Mackie Mixer......fx12
With
Acustica Audio
Analog Obsession
And Plugin Alliance
Mixing and mastering hybrid through Studio One.....
My Masters sound at least 70% better....
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would you be up for doing an SSL fusion comparison video. The Fusion is many peoples first bit of analog hardware so would be useful to see you A/B it with the hardware!?
ruclips.net/video/AvaoDaXrF3U/видео.html
If we are talking about recording, i think analog is the best option, but for mixing it's just a matter of taste.
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You don't need hardware of course. It's also not to say hardware is better than plugins. My experience however is that with hardware I am way faster and need less processing to get the sound I'm after. But hardware has a learning curve. And you need to know when to use it and when NOT to use it. If a sound doesn't need processing, then hardware doesn't make it sound better. Maybe even worse.
I produce dance music. Use a lot of VST synthesizers. So a little spark from some real tubes or transformers is a big difference for me. I have to say it took me a while to find the 'right' gear. Sold my Fusion, my SSL bus compressor and my SSL EQ's. They did not gave me the sound I'm after. 🤔🤔
Most ssl stuff is pretty clean which is maybe why it wasn't for you
I got in an argument with a guy on a mixcon video who said no plugins can compare to his analog rack. He said that plugins can't ever reproduce the sound of his gear, and that "PrOs" use hybrid setups for an advantage over in the box mixers and because the plugins are trash sounding. I feel like the guy was trying to justify all the money he spent on gear.
Serban ghenea is completely itb.. Thats every "pro" argument finished before its started.
At the end of the day, if you'd spunked over 10k on analog gear would you not deny that plugins can sound close to analog?
As soon as they admit that, they admit that they rely on the fantasy that analog gear gives them an edge cause in reality they aren't really as good a mixer as they think they are.
Speak to any proper pro and they'll tell you that they can make an amazing sounding record itb. If their studio caught on fire they would still be able to take on clients and produce mixes that sound like them. Amazing is stlll amazing.
Give it another decade and most of these "Analog gives me the edge" guys will be retired anyway 😜
@@PaulThird exactly. 💯💯💯 I love the sound of "analog" but we have that sound in the box as long as we know which plugins are really giving it to us. Which is why I watch this channel. ☺️
Just use the best of both worlds. If u can. Simple, u cannot tell that is the same. Period
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I’m certainly happy with my mixes totally in the box. Certainly helps to find those maybe 20% plug-ins that really nailed it. I’m a big fan of the Kush plug-ins myself. I saw your video comparing the AR-1, would love to see you investigate other plugs from Kush
It's at the back of my mind. I'd just need to think of the right video for them
@@PaulThird the Kelvin Tone Shaper is out of this world as well. For in the box saturation
I believe the main difference is in the recording chain, before all the conversion. That's where analogue surpasses digital. It's like a cheap vs expensive camera lens.
I personally want to try this theory out via the UAD unison stuff but I can't personally be bothered investing in the UAD stuff to that extent. I do wonder if it bridges the gap though in regards to recording
@@PaulThird I've tried the uad plugin thing they do during the recording process, and it was nothing like an analogue 1073 preamp or UA76 compressor.
Did a side by side comparison. Uad Lacked the tone and character and just sounded raw and thin.
Thanks for the heads-up about the Waves PIE compressor. I just bought it on sale for $29.
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I have the hardware Elysia Alpha compressor in my studio setup with a
40 input API Legacy Plus.
Just got the Brainworx Elysia plugin
for $40 for my home studio.
I am telling you, we don't need hardware
gear for mixing anymore.
Simple.
That close eh?
@@PaulThird Surprisingly yes. In its behavior in any case.
On the hardware unit the Soft Clip stage is very touchy as it distorts even with high thresholds and low " lighting up" of the yellow LED meter.
I had the privilege of meeting Dominik
from Elysia at NY AES few years ago and
in our very nice conversation I told him I felt that my unit may have an issue with
the Soft Clip stage... He started to laugh and said :
" Yeah, we designed it like that so you
guys would have to go easy on it as a brickwall limiter would make our compressor sound like any other bad ones in your racks."
The other thing that made him laugh is that I was the 10th tech who told him
" I tought the unit was in bypass mode although the red lights were hitting -20 db compression. Was thinking it wasn't working as the sound was still wide opened and clear...and then seeing the
Master VU leveled steady at +3 db after cranking the whole mix to the roof"
The Alpha is so well designed and transparent that indeed you need much less limiting to keep your levels where you want them.
Well, the Brainworx version does that too. And Soft Clip behaves the same.
Not sure sbout the m/s capabilities but seems to be close.
For $ 40 CAN vs $ 11,000 US... 😏
even at about 75% accuracy, it's no brainer...
Thanks for your videos !
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It won't take 5 years until we reached the point software and hardware are 99.9% identical, if not earlier.
Next step...let's work on the CPU optimization side of things (Acustica).
I agree. I'm still waiting acustica to solve that piece of the convolution puzzle
@@PaulThird Yeah, absolutely. If that part was solved, they would have gold in their hands and many, many more users.
I mix for a living, basically just ITB. I have some toys here which make my job more fun, but thats all they are. I have a shadow hills compressor, it looks great. I have an RE-201, because it looks cool, and maybe 7 or 8 other nice pieces I have bought. Do they sound awesome and are inspiring to use? YES! do I need them AT ALL to deliver consistent mixes? NO. In fact they probably just make mixing a little slower and more destructive (harder to recall and require real time bouncing).
My clients even know that I mix ITB works great, but they do like the fact that I own some stuff. It gives them a sense that im really invested in what I do, which is true. But that will not make them happy after the first revision. My ears and musicality will do that, the rest is gravy.
I really appreciate the honesty about the gear you have as I have no issues in agreeing that analog is fun, looks great for clients and also sounds awesome, but the fact that you can fully admit that you don't NEED them is the honesty that modern engineers coming up need.
Why do you have those? ..
`Cause I f*cking want to` is way better than 'cause I'm a pro and that's what the pro's use'
Awrite Paul, that was the video alot of folk needed including moi for a long long time.. I agree with ye completely.. Its just common sense at this point.. I'm still no a fkn great mixer but its all sublective as you say.. Cheers bud.. Take care... Alba 🏴
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Love the video Paul. Do you think you can make a video comprehensively listing the plugins you’ve used that sound equal to or better than the hardware they emulate in your opinion? It would be really useful.
ANALOG HARDWARE VS DIGITAL PLUGINS: ruclips.net/p/PLmcBOB8VmXMI_rvJtWcGnXpnBbWDK8jQL
That's what this is for haha
Thanks for all the hard work. :)
Love Tim P ❤ He is the tops... Great video! On a different note...Wondering if there are any free plug ins that are any good? Maybe you could do a round up of the best in each category...
Analog obsessions stuff is probably the best free emulations
@@PaulThird Thanks Paul... i will give them a try
AO's Lala, MAXBAX, Brit Bundle (comp + preamp) and Kolin are my favorites. I don't like the 1176, too dirty for me.
To me its the same as the microcosm of Amp sims vs actual amps. Is a brilliantly mic'd and recorded amp better than an amp sim? Yes! Usually does an Amp sim give good enough tone/sound that you can work with (to the point where the listener has no idea?) Yes!. Is it possible to take one of the greatest Amp ever, being played with a wonderful guitar, by an exceptional guitarist and record it so it sounds bad? yes!
Its the same with digi vs analog gear, there is a difference, and some things can only be done with out board gear, but that does not mean there are not other ways to fulfill that need in the box.
I am certain of this a good mixer can make good sounding stuff ITB or with out board gear, or with Hybrid.
Just like a great guitarist with a good ear for dialling in amps, can make an amp sim sound brilliant as well as a full Tube amp rig with loads of nice pedals etc.
Its the same old generic argument. They are tools, and there are means to get similar results from different tools. It really is, whatever you are most comfortable with IMO
Yes. The skill of the artist/guitarist/engineer/singer/drummer/guitarist is almost the most important. That should always come first in my book
This is the video we need to share more.
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I had an odd journey imo. I’ve been an engineer/producer/ musician for 27 years. I’ve gone between the two so many times, I’m currently in hybrid. I just can’t get my sound without a few pieces of my hardware. I really dig the apogee pultec though. And the Brainworx Black box HG-2, I think it’s the best plug-in ever made so far.
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@@PaulThird which 160 emulation made you sell your 160A? I find I get a different sound when comparing my 560A and the Waves 160, especially on snare. I feel I get more of the actual drum sound with the hardware, rather than just a pucky sounding transient. I haven’t tried UAD 160
ruclips.net/video/2IOgChrQHq8/видео.html
Great video
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You don't need it BUT it sounds better every time. Access Analog.. tried the 1084, Pultec, API, and Pye comp and compared them to my plugins. The emulations sound incredible but they take longer to dial in. You may want a bit more of this but it comes at the expense of that. But the hardware highs and lows are always perfect. They are tighter and deeper and that's what I want. But am I going to spend 1K for one channel of EQ? That's for the person to decide.. I've definitely invested in hardware compressors though.
So you picked my pye compressor shootout correctly then 😜
@@PaulThird lol I will be honest.. at moderate settings it is hard. Very hard. But when you smash the real pye vs the waves, the snap and the kaboom is flatter on the waves and it lacks the highs. The snare just doesn't snap and pop like fresh rice crispies in milk. Sounds more like the crispies have been sitting for a while. Still good though but no comparison if you have them next to each other. I love access analog though. They will save you tens of thousands in the long run.
Should watch my timP dbx 160a video. Hit a drum room at 20db GR and nailed the hardware
@@PaulThird on that one it Def did...it's getting damned close now, damned close! Almost to the point where I wonder if best investment is just hardware ssl style and a 2bus eq at the end of the chain The rest is more than doable in the box. Hell even the PA bettermaker as you have shown and their shadow hills comp could probably get the job done entirely. We are spoiled these days.
Definitely. As soon as I got access to the TimP compressors it really should me what was possible itb. A mix of convolution and in depth measuring and testing. A big difference for me is Tim's mindset. If he can't nail it to his ears then he doesn't release it. There's no point to him in releasing it, even it still sounds great and usable to so many others. It's not achieved his end goal. He could release a crap ton more libraries like acustica has but he just has so much pride in his work. That's why he's so consistent. Honestly the boys a f*cking plugin wizard! 🤣
The issue is mostly all devs don't have that mindset and simply get as close as they can get and just release it anyway so they've not wasted money on developing & R&D. Thus we get left with the inconsistencies and the 'see it as its own tool' mentality.
Did you used T-Racks? Do you love their neve 73 preamp? I'm trying to compare t-racks and arturia one. Loved the video!
I've used them over the years but I don't really go for them. I just have so many options including all the Arturia emulations
Now I feel guilty to have ordered a Blackbox today ! Thanks Paul ! Ahahahah … great content as always
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Paul, could you pretty please at some point, if possible, post (in your descriptions) a google spreadsheet of your software picks for different analog stuff along with what you've tried? For example, if someone like me is looking for a API 5500 emulation and I assume you may have an opinion, as you did in today's video, I can look at your description find your spreadsheet, and say "hmm... Paul really likes the UAD version and he didn't like these much"... This way I can make an informed decision based on an informed ear that I trust. I know sound is subjective; however, I trust your opinion.
thanks!
ANALOG HARDWARE VS DIGITAL PLUGINS: ruclips.net/p/PLmcBOB8VmXMI_rvJtWcGnXpnBbWDK8jQL
That's what that's for haha
@@PaulThird 😂 I guess it is. Thanks!
I come from the days of analogue. Having to pick ONE track per hardware unit when starting a mix was the way. Now we can put 100 instances of one unit if we want. The amount of Pultecs, 1176, La-2as etc I use in an average mix would be mind blowingly expensive as hardware. Recalls would sound different based on the room temperature and humidity and who knows what, no kidding.
The recall thing would drive me nuts haha
Thanks!
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Need analog gear for tracking I have a ton of analog gear and a ton of plugins as of lately yes I mixed All In The Box the big reason is recall also comparisons 1 to 1 can get very close are you might not be able to choose the difference but I found if you start stacking let's say 15-20 tracks all analog compared to plugins the difference is greater but at that point it takes a lot of analog gear and going back to the original statement with recall being so important these days my analog you're only gets used for tracking which is very important so there is definitely a need for analog gear unless you're just a mixer digital has came a long ways and acustica audio is helped bridge the gap
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So true ......I agree with you 100%!
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"no justification to that price"
I dare you to say this in "audiophile" groups XD
If I wanted to be heckled and told how worthless I am then yeah 100% 🤣🤣
I love AA’s Magenta eq on my drum bus
I used the magenta mic pre on this voice over 🤓
@@PaulThird Oh ok cool
I love your shootouts Paul, I very much agree some plugins nowdays have reached or even surpassed some of the gear they emulate. TimP's for sure, as well as some others you mentioned. The one thing I'm not sure is quite there but I would love to be proven wrong and save some money and hassle in the future, is analog summing. I'd love to see a shootout of a mix being summed in an SSL vs some nebula SSL emulation or something across the whole mix, carefully level matched. It would be awesome if you could have access to a studio that can let you sum a mix through their desk for testing! We should call out Warren Huart XD
From the pro's I've spoken to they tell me the analog summing thing is very subtle and many sold them or returned them but without having a summer I can't say for definite. I'm happy with the sonimus Britson for me personally
@@PaulThird Yeah, not to easy to test.. well, without using any plugins an analog sum vs a digital sum sound massively different IMO, it'd be cool to see how close you can get to it using plugins though :)
ruclips.net/video/wVp4syrFkE0/видео.html&ab_channel=DanWorrall
You don't need hardware anymore. A good preamp is nice. Don't need it though..... Just a modern clean one is really fine. Hardware can be really nice though... It has some good qualities that I love. Most people don't need it. It's not going to make it break any mix. If you find the right plugins. Like you said. I need to get me some Tim P. Not need.....I do want to.
I swear if Tim was standalone without nebula every youtuber would be doing reviews haha
Very interesting video - must try some of the plugins you recommend
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I didn’t have to watch the video to know the answer has been “no” for a while. Still, some analog gear can be really nice.
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I just wish there were more tutorials about pure softtware gear, especially compressors, I don't use a single analogue modeled compressor. I use OTT for the squashed, agressive sound, Fruity Limiter for sidechaining and Maximus for everything else, that thing does it all from single band parallel compression with a sidechain filter, to multiband gating. But every time I look at youtube tutorials they keep talking about the Optos and FETs and I can try to match the effect of those after googling what they do exactly, because Software compressors are usually an afterthought to tutorial makers, but I'd throw out the vold claim that a large group of young people watching these, trying to learn production on their own cant afford a lot of plugins, a lot of us work with stock plugins and everything we can get for free so it seems a bit weird that some of the most used software Compressors barely get any love while some obscure hardware gets like 500 hrs of content discussing wether you should get the $200 plugin or the $2000 hardware unit. One time I wana see someone go as in depth on OTT as that one guy went in the "how to hear compression" video one time, I want to see the most used compressor of modern electronic music treated the way it deserves rather then just the butt of a joke.
Dan Worral made a good video on reapers comp but yeah unfortunately analog sells, especially on YT. I actually use sonible smart comp a lot out of just pure ease if I want quick clean compression. Purely digital
@@PaulThird I mean, ball's is your court, you are a content creator, I can't blame you for making videos that sell, but you could make a video about the advantages of that compressor over analogue ones, as well as it's shortcomings for example.
I've already done loads of videos of purely digital plugins. So far from memory I've covered
Smart eq, smart limit, soothe, spiff, Gulfoss, reso, doubletap, kirchhoff, proq3, gsat+, voxessor, melda waveshaper, split eq.. And probably a few others
@@PaulThird then maybe give Maximus a shot, it's one of the few great competitors to Pro-MB, it's expensive but there is ways to test it for free, usually the only people that cover it are FL useres because it's stock in the producer edition but they don't review it really since they never had to decide to buy it. There is a VST version and I feel that it deserves some love as the most versatile dynamics processor I know. I don't think there really is a video review out there about it rn.
Tbh my thinking is doing an extensive video on TDR kotelnikov GE edition. Been playing about with that a lot more and I'd argue that it's one of the most versatile compressors on the market, as well as one of the most transparent as well if you don't use the Ying/yang options.
I knew how good it was but didn't have the time to fully learn it but been taking more time on it every so often. A combination of 2 kotelnikovs are now my voice over compression
In recording every thing are ok . With Hardwarer only daw that a personal choice , i prefer hardware , and a ssl 4040g desk and good vintage outboard. I want listen the music not visualising it , i start recording in 1978 at age of 16 with cassette machine
Paul - So correct & right! Thank you. More understanding & acceptance of this will surely bring down the price of a Fairchild to a 'real world' value, and therefore scare the shit out the purveyors of the myth that makes them so many ££££ (or $$$$$) in the process..;-) Ultimately, it's about the the song, the performance and the quality of the capture, so others can fully appreciate it. If it sounds good (to you, the listener) - it's good END OF. .(regardless of how one got there! ) Onwards & Upwards to us all . Pax.
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I do this for living for fickin 4 years and I can't hear any big different it is like 1% or smaller
And I think that we should be happy for that not sad
I have emulation and think that vst can go much further than any hardware could
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In my opinion as a mixing engineer, both have their own wins, for example, you don't have that flexibility when it's comes to hardware, with plug-ins, there is almost unlimited flexibility, by sound quality, there is not black and white difference, it's depending on your hearing and ability, because if you are not enough, you can't make super sounds with analog too. But I also can say that, there is quality in hardware but it's not that day and night difference. And of course there is some reason peoples buy hardware for few thousand dollars, actually you can buy plug in with way less but of course there is will be quality different. Because hardware have different behavior and abilities to process signals
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@@PaulThird in the beginning of the video you said "you know this smile, and you know what's coming", I really like that. It's iconic. I also start to do videos newly, want to share my knowledge, communication stuffs, and I also have that kind of smile that I do on particular stuffs..
I keep hearing that Tim Patrick conv. Plugins but it’s nowhere to find can you tell me what are those and where to find
You need to own the full commercial version of acustica nebula to access Tim Petherick convolution libraries
Hi Paul, firstly, I have to thank you for the impromptu gag that greeted me as I viewed the title of your video in portrait on my iphone ‘Do you really NEED anal’ naturally my interest was peaked.
I very much enjoy your commentary and even though I’m not a passionate advocate for analog, I find myself disagreeing with something that is hard to exactly put my finger on. We’ve discussed it before - how can something objectively sounding the same, be different. I think this is potentially a fascinating idea, although might be considered a waste of time where no obvious physics could be used to validate it. I’ve suggested before that the feeling of something is less easy to detect, but I’m a fan somewhat of the theory that something that is being studied, does not behave normally, it seems the very act of measuring can cause the subject to deliver results different to that of when we are looking the other way.
I agree that not all analog gear beats plugins in every category and I know you don’t think that most plugins are better than analog, rather I just believe that a/b tests aside, the Pultec hardware for example is a very different animal to the plugin when its being used to create with. My personal experience with hardware is that it seems to deliver quicker, easier and has greater tolerance at the extremes. Plugins require more extremes to achieve a result I might want, yet sounds worse. Analog EQ achieves a result with less and yet conversely can be pushed much further before it sounds bad.
I do think that one aspect of the a/b test that is slightly flawed is that of chasing the sound of an analog setting with the plugin. I think you demonstrate effectively that it can be done, but how often do we chase the setting on a plugin with hardware?
That might actually be a revealing and interesting experiment.
It is one thing to copy another thing, but quite different to innovate. The Chinese are excellent at copying western inventions, but thats not as impressive as the creativity that exists in the original invention, and humans seem to place emotional stock in this in a deeply subconscious, yet meaningful way.
Anyway just sharing ideas here. I’m as fascinated with the differences or not between a or d as you, I just don’t think it ends because two things sound the same, or we can’t consistently tell them apart.
I still dunno how I would test the workflow thing haha If I could I would but there's just way too many variables to be able to come to a concrete and consistent conclusion. I don't use my mouse any more when using plugins, I use the audient ID function where I can hover the mouse over it and use the scroll wheel and look away from the screen. Does that really impact my mixing decisions 🤷♂️ Softube console gives you that as well with more options but again it's all psychological stuff and opens a Pandoras box that leads to a never ending rabbit hole of subjectivity.
I just use my ears and go with my gut. I took myself off all audio forums and just focus on what I feel and what I thinks right. All you've got is your opinion at the end of the day but least its your own and that's something to value with your feelings on hardware. Having your own opinions based on what you hear or feel is never a bad thing.
People may disagree but you know it's your own opinion.
@@PaulThird on that last bit - audio forums. Yes, me too. I found out I really liked SSL preamps, while they were roundly bitched about on gearslags. Thats about the sum of it - go with your own beliefs. Who really knows eh?
Keep up the good work 👍
My only problems with plugins is aliasing frequencies being fed back into the auditable spectrum (which hardware does not do) and over sampling plugins (for that reason of aliasing frequencies) use a shit load of DSP/CPU, like you said it is getting better. Other than that plugins are great.
I do think M1 and other modern processors are getting to a point where we're not having to worry as much about cpu when oversampling. Id say give it another 5 years, most won't really worry about cpu. Which is even better for us 🤓
Analog gear gives you like .1-5% more and it decreases over time. sometimes business wise, workflow is a better fit. Especially if the client can't tell the difference and especially the public.
I have a hybrid workflow. i use it less and less these days. but i keep it for the times I record, which since the pandemic is never.
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Yes.
100% agree with you Paul besides PA TMT which to me is FULL BS marketing and it does nothing at all, but maybe it's just me.
Talking about tape plugins I recently discovered baby audio TAIP which is become my fav tape plugin. I like to have it just one on the final stage of my stereo mix bus/master just before the final clipper. It sounds really good and the thing I really like is that instead of making another real tape machine emu they designed it in a modern way so that it emulates just the sound but GUI and workflow are made in a modern way to let you surgically shape your tape sound in every aspect such drive, bass, highs, harsh taming, soft compression, ecc...I can really add the final overall glue, removing digital harshness but at the same time adding some good sweetness on the "good highs". I highly recommend to check it bros.
Also similar and a free one is JBSOUNDLAB TAPE BUS another hidden gem that can really help removing digital harshness and overall glue, try it on the stereo mix bus/master on about 40/50%.
Luca pretolesi said in a interview that he send the digital signal out in a console just to remove digital harshness, I feel those 2 plugins are really great to make that job in the box.
I don't get the whole digital harshness thing tbh. Serbans mixed all his Grammy winning hits completely in the box and he's been at the top of the game for well over a decade. Whether he actually uses a tape plugin is debated though, possible, but his engineer John Hanes never gave any impression they do.
However I know other big mixers like tape on occasion but I've found tape to be pretty dull sounding on a 2bus for my mixes. I was using tape quite a bit then stopped after a lot of AB's and then had to tell my mastering engineer to stop using tape on my mixes cause after we did a few AB's we found that it was the tape that I didn't like on his masters.
Its a very each to their own thing though. Maybe cause I use a bit of soothe 2 on typically harsh sounding sources, tape simply dulls an already de-harshed mix to my ears. Could be many variables.
In regards to TAIP that is genuinely the thing that will add in digital harshness because its pretty much an aliasing mess due to the AI being fixed at 44.1. Oversampling has no affect on the plugin due to this so even when oversampled it can't remove aliasing so when hit hot it'll give your mix audible unmusical harmonics.
When I tested and compared Taip on the channel with audio examples it really didn't come off great. But if you enjoy it and feel it works for you then it works for you.
The PA TMT thing does do something. It does add variability to the plugin settings but I don't get it for me personally unless you are using the exact same setting on multiple sources. But it does do what it says on the tin.
@@PaulThird I don't like to rely too much on technical measurements and I prefer to trust my ears instead. To me digital harshness is just the fact that ITB we have pure highs opposite than on analog where through circuitery highs tend to smooth and compress. and that's what TAPE BUS emulates indeed: "Tape Bus, recreates the behavior of hardware circuitry when subjected to work in the non-linear or saturation zone.
On the one hand, an analog bus emulation, and on the other, the typical treble compression in the recording of tape. In recording with tape recorders, a high frequency compensating circuit is included in the recording step that amplifies them (pre-emphasis), to later attenuate them in the reproduction (de-emphasis). For this reason, when we force the circuitry with a greater pitch of the sound signal, a compression of the high frequencies is created from 2250 Hz, creating the typical stuck and crushed sound, producing a greater sustain and a better insertion in the mix."
Also if we look at pink noise (along with well mixed and mastered tracks) we can see a pattern where the freq spectrum starts high on low end and goes down on high end.
At the end "tape" saturation it's always saturation and to me that's where saturation is most useful: to bring up the low end and make it audible on every speaker and to tame the highs to remove harshness (forget if digital or not, harshness is just harshness).
Just to me TAPE BUS and some "TAPE SAT" plugins like TAIP works great on taming harshness.
I have to clarify that this works well in combination with a pretty amount of expansion on highs, which give them a lot of dynamics and life but also introduce more harshness, just like when bringing up some vocals using compression, expansion and eq can introduce some sibilance and harshness that you than get rid of with a de-esser.
I invite you to try TAPE BUS on your 2bus (I like to use it just on the mids cuz the sides usually don't have harsh issues), try to set the emphasis at max and then bring up the fader to hear what it does.
Than before tape bus expand the highs (anything like fab pro-mb, DMG multiplicity, AA diamond transient, OTT, ecc), I think that's a great combo.
Tape bus to me it's my main 2bus mids deharshner, TAIP it's more like a final touch: I usually use input (just brings saturation) from +2-3db to +7-8db depending on the mix that helps gluing the whole mix, wear (kind of de-harshner) at 10%, glue (compression) at 8-10%, presence (kind of EQ boost around 6-7k area) at 70% and hi-shape and low-shape at 100% (they work on the opposite where 100% is no effect and 0% is full saturation).
I find these subtle settings work great on every track adding warmth and glue retaining dynamics.
But yes, I can confirm if you do too much TAIP can really do odd things like messing up and eating all the dynamics, although the only way I can think it can bring harshness is to increase presence with wear at 0%.
Anyway I'm sure I could get the same sound using other plugins, I just like its workflow.
(And yes PA TMT do "something" but honestly is really unnoticeable to me)
I just disagree with the term digital harshness. Digital processing isn't harsh. It's very clinical and precise. Proq3 for example, it's simply boosting mids + highs without adding any distortion. It's the analog source thats harsh, not the plugin. If you add proq3 to a duplicated printed analog signal, it will completely null 100%.
I do understand what you are reffering to in regards to analog dampening and stuff but most modern analog eq's are as clean as a plugin and there's no compression. There may analog clipping if you go in super hot but there's no real difference to boosting 7 or 8db in fabfilter compared to a "mastering grade" api 5500.
To be clear, I'm not saying tape doesn't have those qualities mentioned, however id argue that when I'm using soothe, reso or a de-esser I'm using a completely digital process to de-harsh an analog recording.
So I don't really get the notion of digital harshness when a ton of analog eq's will boost frequencies the same way and give you the same end result.
There is dampening going on in a lot of amplifiers, tube gear, tape etc but id argue that you have way more control with purely digital processes like soothe and reso etc
Each to their own. I'm not arguing with the sound of certain tape plugins on a mix, you are correct, it's just the whole digital harshness that annoys me a bit. Id argue clarity and better resolution of the source as apposed to harshness but I get your point
BTW the pink noise thing is due to the sound intensity of acoustic sounds. It's not a man made thing caused by analog circuitry, it's just the way that sound intensity works for musical sources, lots of intensity in the lows which reduces the higher you move up the frequency spectrum. It's just the physics of acoustic sounds. Our ear tilts that slope due to the way our inner ear hair cells are driven more by higher frequencies which is why our ears are most sensitive to mid range.