Is Labour spiteful?
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- Опубликовано: 7 ноя 2024
- Sir James Dyson has accused Labour of being spiteful because it has taken away the inheritance tax reliefs worth a small fortune that he had hoped to enjoy by buying large acreages of farmland in the East of England. He’s completely wrong about that. But Labour is spiteful, nonetheless. He just identified the wrong target for their spite.
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ABOUT RICHARD MURPHY
Richard Murphy is Professor of Accounting Practice at Sheffield University Management School. He is director of Tax Research LLP and the author of the Funding the Future blog. His best known book is ‘The Joy of Tax’.
This video was edited by Thomas Murphy.
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Dyson hoovering up farms!
Good pun
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I agree that Dyson was a poor choice to be championing the cause of farmers, since he was exactly the sort of person that Labour was hoping that the envious public would have in mind when the issue was discussed, however he is not typical of most farmers. Most farmers work really hard and get a very poor return on their land assets, their investment in machinery and hours worked. For most the only reason that they are able to make a living is that they don't have to pay rent and have sufficient land to make a living from it. Many young people already don't want to follow their parents into farming, how many more will not want to if they have to struggle to make a living with less land or rental costs? It doesn't take very many acres at 15 to 20k an acre to reach £1,000,000 and you still have to include the farm house, buildings and machinery.
Those people who think that this is a great idea should ask themselves "who will end up owning the land"? Do you really think that someone like Bill Gates (the largest owner of farmland in the US, I believe) will be buying the land in order to sell food cheaply to the masses? Or is it more likely that very rich capitalists like him will a) use their monopoly to drive prices up, b) set aside the land and rake in huge amounts of government subsidies for doing nothing, c) rent the land to genuine farmers and cream off the profits of their labour (sounds like serfdom to me) or d) all of the above?
People have become so disconnected from the important things in life and so used to food being available in the supermarkets that they can't see the effect that this will have on their food supply, after all farmers are already being encouraged by government, through subsidies, not to produce food. Perhaps future historians will consider those that froze to death fortunate compared to those that suffered the degradations of famine.
‘Envious’ is a lazy characterisation, Frank. You should do better to understand the factors that motivate the average person to get behind policies like this. I have no sympathy for farmers - they fucked themselves and the rest of us with their stupidity around Brexit, so they’re not infallible or immune to propaganda either.
If people like Dyson and Clarkson weren’t exploiting tax loopholes, farmers wouldn’t have become a target. Direct your ire at them, not the average person struggling with their bills and disproportionate tax burden because of dodgers.
@GetGwapThisYear It is not lazy, it is precisely what I intended. I do not suggest that the entirety of the public is motivated by envy, merely that envy is precisely the emotion that Labour intended to stir up, in those that suffer from it.
@ except it isn’t. It’s a lack of understanding by desperate people who don’t have enough. They’re being pointed at a target by elected politicians in the same way they’ve been pointed at immigrants for decades. It’s the same tired methodology. You’re as bought into it as they are.
@GetGwapThisYear I agree. It is classic 'divide and rule'. It is pecisely why large corporations and governments are (apparently) so invested in DEI, it provides a way to divide the masses into smaller groups and set them at each others throats, while they make off with the family silver. Incidentally, I'm not 'bought into' anything, which is one reason why I watch this channel when I disagree with much of Richard's ideology and many of his conclusions. I am always learning and I am always open to a convincing argument, which is why many of my opinions have changed or evolved over the years.
@@frankcooper6118 The Tory fantasy of a 'politics of envy/jealousy' suggests that people who are critical of the game actually LOVE the game, they just want to replace some of the luckier players. It both flatters Tories that they have lives to be jealous of, and supports the rightness of the system that benefits them. But if people actually believed that, they'd be Tories! 😹In reality, people want a higher quality game and better relationships between players
What they are not doing is more concerning than what they are doing.
Agreed.
It's not people like Dyson that have a problem, it is the actual family farmers. A 1m allowance is totally inadequate to protect those farmers so he has a valid point regardless of his own position.
With add on's it's actually £3 million. So tell me why should everybody else pay IHT at £325.000 whilst farmers start paying at £3 million?
I think if you’re passing it on to family who will physically keep the farm going then no IHT should be paid , if you sell it within 20years of inheriting it then you should pay 99% IHT
@alexharvey7102 highly intelligent comment 😵💫
@@Durnyful 👍
It would be more accurate [and helpful] to describe Labour as neoliberal rather than "spiteful". Their harsh economic policies [such as condemning the elderly to death through hypothermia] are driven not by "spite" so much as their addiction to raw market forces that put profit ahead of people.
This is correct as far as i see it. Labour used to claim they stood for the people (dubious), but like the other party, they're now pro capitalism seemingly with a remit of, errr, destroying capitalism.
@@spudinho1
Most economic policies are best described as idiotic.
Does it get that cold in Singapore?
They’re certainly spiteful towards pensioners, savers, students, working families trying to pay for their kid’s education, taxpayers, and working people.
They'll end up like Democrats, at an even greater cost to the UK, with the thieving Tories taking back power.
One has to wonder who's advising Labour.. Forrest Gump ?
Most of society then.
@CarlTebbutt now we are getting somewhere. Just go that extra mile and think Davos. Transhuman, anti human, de pop.
They’re quite mendacious and thick
The Budget we have just had was one of the most honest we have had for many years.
@ honest? Did you hear about the Nissan layoffs today? Did you hear Sainsburys saying prices will have to rise to pay their NI bill? Was it honest not to tell people that they would see their cost of living go up and their jobs be at risk? How much tax do you think abolishment of non-dom status will raise when 30% of high wealth individuals have made plans to exit the UK. Look what has happened today to the FTSE, the pound and the cost of government borrowing. The 10 year gilt interest rate is mow higher than after Truss’ budget
Exactly right.
They are just window dressing.
They have avoided rent controls. Not addressed child poverty. We still have families going to food banks.
The two child cap would not alleviate child poverty.
That's not the core of the issue.
@@paulgibbons2320
Rent controls lead to chronic shortages and ugly grey and secondary markets, as we have in Sweden.
@physiocrat7143 we already have chronic shortages. This is directly linked to having a parliament staffed by 80% private landlords.
It's a vested interest issue. The price of their property portfolios and what they can charge in rent is determining if we build homes or not.
Clearly, that is going to cause problems. Having MP's who profit from a chronic housing shortage leads to supply not meeting demand.
It's a corruption issue.
@physiocrat7143 I bet the people using this argument are private landlords. Becareful who you listen to on this issue.
Chronic misinformation is vast. Believe me, there are forces at work to protect the private land lord rip off.
@paulgibbons2320
Until the wave of mass immigration there was a substantial surplus of empty homes, but there has been an apparent shortage since the time of the Tudors. The market is dysfunctional. It can be advantageous to leave land and buildings vacant eg in land banks. Those who would change things are too quick to jump to false conclusions and come up with policies that would not work, or would make matters worse.
@physiocrat7143 That's quite deliberate. Done by those who are happy with feudalism 2024.
Let terrible ideas succeed so they can default to the old ones.
Do not be diswaded. We need an end to this engineered poverty.
Surely farms are like all other business. There is a vast difference between small or relatively small farms and the mega industrial sized farms we now have . Labour should have targeted the latter. A great number of small farms are producing organic crops and raw dairy which is a valuable and healthy alternative to mass produced processed food . Most people can’t afford these products but they never will if we penalise small/medium farms out of existence rather than encourage them.
The main difference of family farms to other businesses is reflected in Richard Murphy's talk. Unlike nearly all other businesses, traditionally, farmers do seek to pass the farm down to the next generation in their family. Murphy doesn't really acknowledge that fact in this video. The imposition of (reduced) inheritance tax will change that equation significantly. Labour has argued that few traditional family farms will be affected and gave an analysis of recent historical data to support that contention. This may be correct: so far, we have had to take the government's word on this. It's unclear to me what the impact of these changes will be on industry structure. I fear the law of unintended consequences.
@@digitaurus Upon death it will force an unknown amount of farming families off their land .Leaving the production of that food in jeopardy or up for grabs, threatening small scale farming in this country. It penalises small /medium farms and the valuable contribution they make to food production. Land on a large scale is already being already bought by supermarkets ,creating more mega farms . Is that what we want? I don’t think so. Food production has a different value to all other business. This policy seems to me to be unthinking and not in the national interest .
@@SarahWalker-Smith I would agree with that. The £1 million figure seemed very low for a farm. That's only 100 acres in my part of the country, let alone factoring in the value of buildings.
You're leaving out some very important context to your points about taxing the wealthy; on a national level, the UK has no need to tax the wealthy to pay for social programs. I'm pretty sure you already know this. The UK national govt (UKNG) has full monetary sovereignty and can simply create whatever money is needed to cover needed social programs. And there are established ways to avoid inflation risks. The UKNG does not need money from the wealthy, it needs to reclaim power from the wealthy. Currently very wealthy elites have a lot of power over UKNG policies and laws; that's the primary reason why working class people are dying and suffering due to austerity. When you leave out this key context, you dilute and diminish the impact and relevance of your messaging.
If Labour set inheritance threshold at £5 million like USA no problem
Then small farmers AND SMEs wouldn’t be affected
Small farmers get close to 2 Million in relief twice everyone else.
If people learned anything it is that tax thresholds and allowances never keep pace with inflation.
@@IMBlakeley
A viable small farm would be around 445 acres. Average good not poor arable land is say £10K so a mere 100 acres is £1 million not including any land rovers or tractors or actual machinery or farm buildings or house, or live stock if any. And once tied to land there’s no going off on holidays abroad when you feel like it. It’s 24/7 yes 24/7 making the most of daylight. So a small viable farm is around the £5 mill mark plus costs of machinery, 4x4 vehicles, specialist equipment and buildings and then a house on site.
This is not an industrial scale East Anglia satellite controlled banks of harvesters etc its a small awkward farm with awkward shapes, and bits and pieces to be nurtured.
Do you see now how Rachel is absolutely ignorant and operating on envy because she thinks from a council house city dweller perspective even an acre of land at £10K is a lot of money and not about if it can produce food profitably.
She forgets UK imports 60% of its food in 2024 which frankly is criminal and a national security risk.
The click of of people who are currently in charge of the labour party are definitely spiteful, but they're not spiteful to Dyson.
As if they're too busy naval gazing and changing rules, procedures while fixing selections and all manner of internal games and press briefings to prevent anyone with a different political worldview from taking over the party
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I don't know much property tax law so I don't see how Labour's measure affects large farms that are owned and operated by corporations. Surely the corporation just keeps going and only the management/staff change over time. If so, my sense is that this measure will affect only farm holdings that are registered in the name of individuals.
New Labour are a vindictive bunch. Old Labour, where I think you’re from, is not so much. I accept that Dyson is playing the system.
Dyson is playing the system AND trying to rig it.
Yes.
The issue with farm inheritance tax is that the value of the asset (which farmers have no control over) is so massively greater than the potential value of the output (which farmers also have no comtrol over) As such there is simply no way of paying inheritance tax on a farm over the 10 year period by farming the land. Even a small farm of 100 acres is over a million. Wheras it may only generate about £10k in profits in a good year. By all means break up large land holdings but this affects a whole generation of future farmers who need the family farm as a base. Dyson by the way has his on farming business beeswax farming like most new large landowners he's not providing opportunities to the tenant sector. I highly recommend the farming explained RUclips channel for anyone interested.
Very petty for sure - much of it piecemeal virtue signalling rather than well thought stratrgy.
The latest attach on family owned farms is extremely spiteful. No commercial entity should have to pay inheritance tax anyway. They provide jobs and pay taxes. That is far more important. Additionally this is a tax on farming, which is the last thing the government should be doing. Traditionally the farming sector has been subsidised as an essential national security issue. Small family farms will go out of business because of this. That is unforgivable.
The commercial entity isn't paying the tax, the owner is. And the benficiary is receiving a whole load of wealth. If I am to be taxed on the property I leave to my children (which is rented out so is providing a home to a family), then farmers should be taxed too.
You will have food shortages if farms go under.Family farms are a different thing.My farmer neighbour has land worth a lot but only if it’s sold as housing so why not make it so that farms that are on land that CANNOT be sold to build on are zero tax.
Yes it is
Thank you, Richard, for an insightful, and balanced view on the subject.
I am a big fan of the single land value tax as proposed by Henry George. It's an old idea and very straight forward, but would likely work far better than anything else.
Yes. Yes, they are.
But not for Dyson's reasons
Who`s land is it really, the peoples land and you cannot put a price on it.
They are
What happens to small farms that get caught in the trap because the pass on their business?
@@keithryder99
forced to selling productive land to raise funds to pay death taxes. Farm shrinks and viability is threatened
Nothing: in excess of 1million pounds=nothing changes for them.
@@robinspat I think you do not understand how it works: a lot of farms will not be in excess of 1 million pounds, because of debts/levels of profits etc. Now, maybe farmers need to talk it over with the government and the threshold will be raised, but the idea in itself is not at fault.
Yes
I avoid Dyson products everyone should.
I thought that Blue New Labour WMD v2.0 were spiteful to increase tuition fees.
Have you ever run a small business? I think we can tell the answer. While I agree Dyson was not a good advocate for the particular tax the truth for a lot of farmers this is a major issue. This does interestingly hit on a major point that people like yourself always fail to understand is that the motivation of small business people is for self determination and to provide for their family and the community. The spite of this government and the ignorance of your own position comes from collectivism we’re everyone and therefore no one is responsible or cares for the individual.
Richard Murphy says this in the video.
Dyson just likes winning when someone threatens to take away one of his toys.
Dyson is a very greedy man.
Worth almost 20bn, 110million in IHT is peanuts to him and can't take it with him.
“It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God” Luke 18:25, Matthew 19:24, and Mark 10:25.
There is a strong case to be made for a winfall tax charge (basicallty a version of CGT) on farmers obtaining planning permission to build non-farming property - basically converting farmland to land for residential development. In my rural part of the UK, this occurs on a massive scale whereby overnight the market value of land rises from £8k - £10k per acre to around £600k for the same acre of land with planning permission. If anyone wonders why farmers are often parish and district councillors in rural areas...I am pretty sure there is no motivation other than the desire to perform a public service.
@@theolddog5129
Planning changes have been tried before. They always fail.
The uplift is captured automatically by a land value tax.
@@physiocrat7143 "Planning changes have been tried before. They always fail." Please for my benefit are you able to elaborate on which planning changes have been tried before in relation to land value?
Also, my understanding of a land value tax is that such a tax would be an annual tax equal to a small percentage of the value of the land in ownership. Whereas the transition from agriculture to building land is a one-off event hence my use of the term windfall.
A land value tax would not really work for a one-off windfall and would have to be very carefully designed so that it does not drive small farms out of business whilst the land is being used for agriculture i.e. small farms would have to be excluded in my view.
@theolddog5129
Town and Country Planning Acts 1947 and 1968
Community Land Act 1975.
Fails every time. If you want to capture the uplift released by planning consents, you have to scrap all existing property taxes and replace them by a land value tax. Some people have been arguing for this since 1946.
@theolddog5129
The "windfall " is the capitalisation of the increase in rental value. If all the increase in rental value is taxed away, there is no windfall.
The real value of land is its annual rental value. The price of land is derived from the annual rental value. It is, roughly 20 times.
@@physiocrat7143 Firstly, the acts that you reference do not relate to charges for change of land use as such. What you describe as "windfall" is not a windfall at all - just land rental value. Windfall by its very definiition has to be a sudden change event which leads to a significant capital gain over a short time period. Taxing windfall resulting from change of land use from agriculture to some other use e.g. development at the same rate as personal income tax would be the most fair and sensible option. This would not wipe out the windfall as we do not have a 100% tax rate band. The problem with a universal land value tax is that it would severly impact small (say under 200 acre) "family farms" and potentially drive them out of farming.
3:25 and this is where business should stop, Richard. If you want to square the circles of inequality and sustainability within capitalism, ask yourself who's the culprit every time.
Hi, don't family trusts work anymore? I agree but death duty is just a spiteful tax. We literally had the welth of the world on this island and politicians have not so slowly peed it all away wile telling sensable people that bad ideas are bad is peeing into the wind
Family trusts can work to a degree but discretionary trusts have to pay IHT every 10 years, and the overheads of running a trust can be onerous.
33.1 subscribers, well done!
I think maybe we need a video about farming. What I mean: I am not able to assess whether 1million£ is a large or a small farm because I know nothing about farming: working as a farmhand when I was a student only brought home the hard work required o a farm. Reading the comments below evidenced the same lack of understanding for most posters. We need figures and analysis.
And once we have this, I am curious to know if Rachel Reeves has set the inheritance tax at a realistic level, or if there is a chance of small farms being impacted.
Personally, I do not like the idea of rich idiots like Dyson Hoovering (well done @HighWealder for that pun) poperties and then having tenants, and I wonder if he is a good landlord.
The amount of resources these people require to sit on thier arse and do nothing is astounding.
We have an entire country and tax system run for a few people who apparently cant be arsed anyore.
Yes, but .......... what happens to the tenants were the land to be sold to settle tax liabilities ?
Like everybody else they have a lifetime to prepare for that tax bill!!!
You do know the average return on capital enjoyed by farmers ? @@william_marshal ....... it doesn't allow for much saving.
The buyer will still rent the land to the tenants.
James Dyson, the guy who invented the hoover🤭😹
I think he meant a vacuum cleaner.
@@william_marshal It gives me the same kind of pleasure as a damp squid
👍👏👏
Could we have your views on IHT? I think it is unfair. I am putting hours into work and investments, to save up for retirement and for my kids so that they have a step up the ladder. Wife and I do not come from well to do families.
Did your parents spend their entire lives saving up every penny for you?
@@william_marshal They tried and they helped with out first house. What's your point?
My view is that it is wrong, because we are taxed throughout our life. If we earn money, we pay tax (Income tax), if we spend money, we pay tax (VAT, Insurance Premium Tax, Passenger Air Duty, Fuel Duty, etc), if we save money, we are taxed on the interest (Income Tax), if we buy more than one house we pay tax (Stamp Duty Land Tax), if we invest prudently and are lucky enough to make a gain, we pay tax (Capital Gains Tax). At the end of our life, what we have managed to accumulate in spite of the tax system, should be ours to do with as we please. It is my view that the state should have no call on it.
any news on UK joining Schengen?
Yeah, it happens on the 22nd of Never.
You are so right about the two child benefit cap and the bedroom tax. I lost my Winter Fuel Allowance -although not my £10 Christmas bonus- and would have been happy to do so had it been offset against against the removal of such a big contributor to child poverty and ill health. Where is the vision? Where are the big dreams? We live in a country that can’t even build a railway line.
I'm unemployed and I've been through various pointless unemployment schemes like Restart and that's very ineffective in getting people back to work and largely copium...I'd be happy if the £1.5billion a year spent on these pointless schemes goes to children
As far as Dyson is concerned I agree. However, in much the same way that the winter fuel allowance left many OAPs who are just over the threshold to benefit, Labour have failed to recognise that working farmers should be an exception rather than the rule. This is for two reasons. First, £1m goes nowhere for a working farm: just like the fuel allowance, it is set at the wrong level. Second, Labour has lost sight of the reason for protecting farmers' inheritances, which is the need to protext and preserve the country's ability to feed itself without recourse to imports, es[ecially for necessities. Ideally, imports should be where we get our luxury foods from, not the staples (bananas excepted). I must disagree about the point of working until you drop: that is inherent in the entrepreneur mindset. In possibly the majority of cases the transfer of ownership will come many years before death, maybe arount the 60-70 year mark, but the former owner will continue to work. It might be useful to tag along with Liz Webster's channel for a while to see how things really work in the farming sector.
TYeah your right about working farmers.
The context in regards to land owners verses independent farmers is an important nuance.
That they are failing to recognise.
Im all for expanding the rights and powers of actual productive farms versus large land holding estates that waste resources. I think thats a big fail for labour actually.
With ad ons it's actually £3 million !!!
All inheritance tax is bad, as is capital gains tax. You get taxed once when you make the money that's is more then enough! And farmers need all the help they can get. You use Sir James Dyson as the bases for your argument, and you may well be right about him. But he doesn't represent all farmers or entrepreneurs. poor show.
Inheritance Tax is nevertheless a bad tax. It has not achieved its aim. It has not prevented the continued concentration of land ownership; most of Central London is still owned by the same half dozen aristocratic families as in 1700.
IHT, together with all other property taxes, should be replaced by a regular land value tax ie on the rental value of land.
Labour rejected a wealth tax, probably because most Labour MP's are millionaires !!!
Theresa May proposed an effective inheritance tax to pay for social care. Labour sneered at this "dementia tax". They subsequently ducked the issue of social care which everyone agrees is key to fixing problems with the NHS. I guess they wanted to start by "undermining the foundations".
Duke of Westminster. 8 billion and no inheritance tax paid. Nuff said.
@william_marshal
A wealth tax is a very bad idea because it falls on the definition of "wealth ".
The real solution is a regular tax on the annual rental value of land. This works something like the business rates but the valuation is on the site alone. Buildings and improvements are ignored. It is assumed that the land is developed as permitted by planning consents for the site. Land hoarding would be expensive.
Just a small, but important point, the first manual vacuum cleaner was invented by Daniel Hess, the Hoover was invented by James Spangler in 1908. Please don’t credit James Dyson with anything more than refining the design. His ego is large enough already.
Richard was obviously being facetious when he said Dyson invented the hoover. To put Richard's remark a bit differently: considering how much Dyson praises his own product, it seems as if he believes he's the first to invent the hoover.
@ it didn’t come off that way to me, and the way most billionaires act they invented everything. It’s best to never muddy the waters on this.
They went after oap's due to their voting record, they went after the working class due to not voting for them, they are as spiteful as they come.
How can you call Putin a Chad when he has lead to over half a million people killed and wounded in the last 3 years. Why don't you name your channel ChadvonAdolfHitler?
It’s a bizarre MO, because Starmer has all but sealed his fate as a one-term PM. He’ll be fine when people rebuke them and vote for even worse politicians and worse policy out of spite, but the rest of us won’t. We’ve had our one hope for this generation; we’re not likely to see a reprieve any time soon.
You are just showing your complete ignorance of the countryside another Labour supporter living in the inner city bubble. Dyson you say has moved out of the UK but bought £300 million in UK farmland that he farms himself. He employs 3,500 people in the UK. His UK farms are in a company so will not be liable for inheritance tax ever. British farmers have not needed to give their property onto the next generation before they die ever in history to avoid inheritance tax, like all other business that have had decades to do so to avoid inheritance tax. It is spite to bring in a tax that doesn’t give farmers seven years to pass on their business to avoid inheritance tax like all other businesses have had for decades.
You're talking absolute Bullshite !!!
You're talking about tax evasion. That's a different discussion. They're talking about family owned and worked farmland; farmland that is actively being worked by their families. You clearly, simply do not know anything about family farms. You frame the conversation around tax evasion and gains on entrepreneurs, not family owned farms.
Oops. Wrong title.
You forgot to update the thumbnail from yesterday’s video.
This guy talking absolute nonsense
troll
i can now double an investment of under a few million in what looks like 10 working days.
i would say i'm the one who won november 5th, not dems, not republicans, not jill stein, not russia, not china, not brics, not israel
i did .
i suggest humble shows of respect on the part of my subjects - this will enable me to be kinder to you all in future
i have to mainstain standards
if you continue as you are, i'm afraid it's going to be unpleasant -
ALL of you
zero exceptions.
WTF are you gibbering?
Deceitful, vindictive, liars is a more accurate description
Someone has to sort the greedy rich out and it won't be Badenoch or Farage !!!
I like to stay optimistic but I have run out of hope that starmer will sort out the greedy rich to any meaningful degree
I have seen a number of your videos and I can say with confidence that a number of policies in Reeves' budget will kill small businesses, but Dyson's claims are most certainly NOT one of them.
£550m in land value
Created by people, and riddled with those same people, whose original emblem is a sheep skinned wolf. No way they're spiteful.
You know it 😜 😏
Interesting
Family farms do exist and a number of these will be caught by these changes to inheritance tax. For example, I have in-laws that own and run a family farm; until recently, three generations of the family worked together on it, with the oldest, now in his late eighties, recently retiring from active participation. It's difficult for me to tell what the assessed value of the farm would be, but it is going to be well above £1 million. The family is relatively asset rich and cash poor - but able to support a perfectly reasonable "middle class" life.
I presume some parts of an estate will need to be sold on the death of a member of the family who owns shares in the business, which will impact somewhat on the family's wealth and possibly on the viability of the family farm as a family-based concern, but I have no idea what the macro effects will be for the agriculture industry as a whole. I would be interested to hear an analysis.