I am not really concerned about what any particular person BELIEVES. You may believe that there is an old man with a white beard perched in the clouds, that the Ultimate Reality is a young blackish-blue Indian guy, that the universe is eternal, that Mother Mary was a certifiable virgin, or that gross physical matter is the foundation of existence. The ONLY thing that really matters is your meta-ethics, not your meta-physics. Do you consider any form of non-monarchical government (such as democracy or socialism) to be beneficial? Do you unnecessarily destroy the lives of poor, innocent animals and gorge on their bloody carcasses? Do you believe homosexuality and transvestism are moral? Do you consider feminist ideology to be righteous? If so, then you are objectively immoral, and your so-called "enlightened/awakened" state is immaterial, since it does not benefit society in any way.
Why does it need to the letter combination GOD? Come up with a new word for a new meaning, otherwise big danger of equation fallacy. Delusion that eg. person in ancient times is talking about the same thing
Let's not forget that Rainn's religion, the Baha'i Faith, excommunicates believers who are openly gay. Just another fake religion full of bigotry and hate. There are so many contradictions in the Baha'i writings.
As to a devil there is no doubt, but it is he trying to get in or trying to get out? Nice discussion. I'd have loved to be there and shared this conversation with you both.
Hey rain huge fan and former Bahai. I just wanted to say that I’m a Christian now and one thing I wanted to ask you is how can you believe the Bahai principle of evil not existing when we see evil in our day to day and the old and New Testament speak to a physical and spiritual embodiment of evil
@@koushakoshkbaghi3159 Former Baha'i here too :) Evil does not objectively exist. Good does not objectively exist. It is just our collective subjective experiences of what we like and don't like that that we give the labels evil and good.
@@koushakoshkbaghi3159 If you notice they trash Christianity subtilty while claiming to believe in all religions, you will never here them do the same to islam, hindu, buhdah etc. he will never say Christ is king or God in the flesh. the arguments are always against straw men and not what is actually in the bible in its full context and what Christians really believe. the word sin wasnt high jacked. with out Christ's blood there is no redemption. but i guaranty rain couldn't give you a genuine description of the sacrifice system set forth to the Levitical priests and how the only pure human to ever exist had to fulfill it for our redemption. they have zero understanding that christ was not just a prophet. they think all prophets were sinless, its a lie they spew out, they have no understanding that all prophets were sinners except Christ. just look at all the slavery, pdf file and war mohumid got up to that the bahais say he was from the same god as Christ. the quran denies the crusifiction of christ, yet somehow bahis say its the same god. ridiculous. as for the existence of evil, they will mock you for speaking of exorcizing demons with the name of christ and the power of the holy spirit. again showing their disingenuous claim of believing in the christ of the bible. when you dont believe sin opens doors for demons to possess you and try to minimize it all down to just little mistakes then you enable evil to rule. its that simple. rain enables evil to rule.
@@koushakoshkbaghi3159 If you notice they trash Christianity subtilty while claiming to believe in all religions, you will never here them do the same to islam, hindu, buhdah etc. he will never say Christ is king or God in the flesh. the arguments are always against straw men and not what is actually in the bible in its full context and what Christians really believe. the word sin wasnt high jacked. with out Christ's blood there is no redemption. but i guaranty rain couldn't give you a genuine description of the sacrifice system set forth to the Levitical priests and how the only pure human to ever exist had to fulfill it for our redemption. they have zero understanding that christ was not just a prophet. they think all prophets were sinless, its a lie they say, they have no understanding that all prophets were sinners except Christ. just look at all the slavery, pdf file and war mohumid got up to that the bahais say he was from the same god as Christ. the quran denies the crusifiction of christ, yet somehow bahis say its the same god. ridiculous. as for the existence of evil, they will mock you for speaking of exorcizing demons with the name of christ and the power of the holy spirit. again showing their disingenuous claim of believing in the christ of the bible. when you dont believe sin opens doors for demons to possess you and try to minimize it all down to just little mistakes then you enable evil to rule. its that simple. rain enables evil to rule.
I’ve practiced meditation and read classical Indian texts like the Bhagavad Gita and the Upanishads. When I was 18 I had an experience where I felt the boundaries of my body dissolve and that the only thing that is really is the ocean of love and bliss that was flowing through me. This has been my foundation of understanding what “God” is. No one can convince me that god is any one thing because that experience showed me that GOD IS EVERYTHING EVERYWHERE AT ALL TIMES. My task will always be to become rooted in that experience ❤
The problem is people think god is a thing or being. In order to fit god into a definition you are creating a box for him to exist within. But god is infinite. God knows no bounds. He is everything. But simultaneously he is a "No-thing". Good vs evil. Self Vs Other. Creator Vs Creation. Two sides of the same coin. We are one.
I have met one Baha'i person in my entire life. I was a truck driver, and i was passing through Portland, oregon when i had to stop for the night. I met a homeless man outside of a Macdonalds who was asking for some spare cash. At this moment, I can't remember if i had any cash on me or not, but i invited him to come inside and eat dinner with me. We ate together inside the McDonald's and talked for about 3 hours about EVERYTHING. this included religion, in which he explained his religious faith of Baha'ism. Our conversation was very fruitful and I'll never forget it.
I'm glad your conversation with the Baha'i man was so positive. I'm a Baha'i myself and it always makes me happy when other people like to learn about it.
As a massive fan of the US Office, it's so surreal to see Rainn praising a RUclipsr I've watched for years from humble beginnings. You're a brilliant man Alex. You have a long, great future ahead!
I loved hearing Rain describing god as an experience and feeling that more in nature and with music and love and things that connect us. That's how I think about god as well but I haven't met many people that share this perspective. Fantastic discussion all around.
The Apostle Paul talks about this in Acts 17. He says that God is in everything and sustains everything, but because we were made in his image, we are his descendance. So, we should not think that God is the sky, or the sun, or plants, or an animal... if we think this way, we would be materialists, and in materialism there is no justice nor barbary. If there are rules in the universe, there is because someone set them. Some of them are arbitrary, like gravity. Gravity doesn't have a will or a purpose, it's not coscient, but it works in a place making life impossible and in other place making life possible, even tho it doesn't know. Someone else decides what gravity can do for good and for bad, that is, to protect or to hurt life.
@@mateusbandeira9017 Justice and barbary are based on what is beneficial or not. However because we cant see into the future any shortterm benefit can be bad in the long term and vice versa. So all we have is try and success / fail and then conclude.
I was brought to this same experience going through the 12 steps and continuing to apply those principles daily very interesting to hear this from someone else
One of the many nice things about Christianity (I'm not a committed Christian at this point but thinking everything through) is the idea that God demystified himself for us. God is by nature hidden outside of time and space, and we can't really know anything about him, so God became a human being and came to meet us. If it's true it makes the universe a very cozy place. edit: What a lively comments section
"God is by nature hidden outside of time and space". I think that this is a very Newtonian, classical and deist perspective. I think this is a non-trinity view of Christianity. A Spinoza-Einstein synthesis view would be something along the lines of "god is space-time". In a Thomas Hobbes view of the world, this would mean that god is some kind of leviathan creature and we are all 1 part of it. If God was Jesus and God was the burning bush; then God has been of the world. God is also the holly spirit that remains in the world. I think that this is more along the lines of a trinity belief. I think there are many interpretations and meanings of Christianity. It is a very adaptable religion and it is why it has survived as long as it has.
@jackkrell4238 i think what he meant in saying is god is outside of space and time he's beyond it, and supposedly created it. God is spiritual non material being, an eternal being. Which then it's plausible than he can't be something that we can comprehend but in christianity by sending himself down so than we can understand him. It comes from the new testament that "the word became flesh" the logos came before us so that we may understand it according to christianity. It's definitely thought provoking if anything. I could be wrong in understanding 🫠
@@gavinpicard3003 It surly lays bare all the bullshit pontificating people do about what is god really. Every last one of those conversations is fartsniffing trying to find an intellectual excuse for the idiocy of the idea of Christianity.
My man is on the come up. I remember being a subscriber of Alex when he was showing his 1000th subscriber and now he's at 1 million and has Rainn Wilson on his show. Love it. Atta boy Alex ur early subs are so proud of you.
yeah I remember the days of 100k, just as I remember unsolicited advice at 8k. It's a testament to people thinking more and it almost becoming cliche in a way - its great.
Some of the best conversations between two people can be about the idea of a God, but only if both people willing to learn from the other person, instead of trying to bend the other to their position or opinion.
I guess. I have a saying: theology is ontology *ON BLACK ICE* ( and, relatedly, teleology is metaphysics *ON BLACK ICE* ). I think that speculating about an entity said to be utterly beyond/transcendent to us is largely a waste of time. I think we should stick to studying and speculating upon being (ontology) and how reality is on a general level (metaphysics).
Completely agree. The point should be to share our thoughts, insights and understandings with one another with the goal of advancing our learning together rather than conflict or debate.
He raises a great point about debates over God not changing the atmosphere. A debate is so stringent in what it wants to achieve whereas having an "interesting conversation" about God evokes a high degree of openness to what you could talk about and how the conversation can make you feel or present yourself and your thoughts
does 'an interesting conversation about god' change the atmosphere? What does it even mean, to change the atmosphere really? No debate or conversation is ever going to settle the issue. It's a question of faith. Some people can lose or gain faith after seeing some discussion or conversation, but even when it is 'an interesting conversation about god' it is still essentially a debate and depending on internal biases different viewers will have different opinion on who was more persuasive in their arguments.
Exactly, this is why shows like Joe Rogan’s are so successful. He doesn’t make things a debate, but a long form discussions with pushback on ideas is much better imo.
Neither debate nor discussion changes the most hardened zealot because they are generally disingenuous and dishonest, especially Christians and Muslims. Both groups are renowned for their lying and subjective interpretations.
Ram Dass talked about this. The Zen saying “the finger pointing at the moon” means that teachings, symbols, or practices are merely guides meant to direct your attention toward a deeper truth. The “finger” represents the guidance, while the “moon” symbolizes the ultimate reality or enlightenment. Focusing too much on the guidance itself, rather than what it points to, can prevent you from experiencing the truth directly. It’s a reminder to look beyond words, concepts, and structures to truly understand.
Someone tell Rainn that psychedelics are used as the most excellent antidote to conventional "drug addictions". At around 10:30 into the interview, he reveals that his proclivity to become addicted keeps him from delving into the psychedelic experience. I suggest this fear is overwhelmingly unfounded.
@@bignoob1790 Yes, Sir. Psychedelics are definitely NOT a guarantee for "enlightenment". With the necessary and sufficient preparation, they may provide insight and experiences that cannot be as easily attained from any other legitimate "spiritual practice" and their pedigree is based on thousands of years of testimony. The modern prohibitions have mostly sinister motivations, being insisted upon by ignorant & barbaric legalistic authorities and self-promoting & mind-controlling religious institutions. There are potential problems, which is why the the requirement of careful, thorough, and sincere investigation before using any of those substances is mandatory before any intelligent and prudent participation is attempted.
@@adamborowicz7209 Is your comment based on any personal experience with utilizing any psychedelic? Or do you speak totally by regurgitating the opinions of others whom you have chosen to credit as "authorities"? Without personal experience, you literally do not know of what you speak. You have allowed yourself to be programmed. Shame on you, if that's the case.
I appreciate this dialog so much, because it references so much of what I've been thinking about for the last year and more. The limitations of language in particular is something that we as erstwhile believers need to grasp and wrestle with. Thanks to both of you for this peek into something larger than what it appears to be.
"Don't think - feel! It is like a finger pointing a way to the moon. Don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory." - Bruce Lee, student of philosophy (and fighting) with a quote consistent with Taoism, which is consistent with Wittgenstein.
The "finger pointing to the moon" is from a Zen saying and has nothing to do with directing one to a belief in God or "heavenly glory." It has to do with revealing that the self is illusory as a fixed form. All existence is impermanent. Focusing on the "finger" rather than what it indicates is confusing the method with the direct experience: direct experience of one's own mind, consciousness and its contents. Feeling can also be misleading as well if one regards it as revelatory. Meaning that, one has "insight" derived from "feeling" and then holds on to that. Sensations and emotions are impermanent just as thoughts are. Holding to "heavenly glory" is meeting the Buddha on the road. As another famous saying puts it, "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him." That experience is as impermanent as all others, so don't hold on to it as it too is subject to the flow of change. That is also confusing the finger for the moon. Wittgenstein also doesn't direct one to a belief in God, necessarily. He was an agnostic. He points out the limits of rational thought just as Buddhism does. Wittgenstein’s “Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent” in Tractatus does resonate with Buddhism and Taoism, and I get where you see the connection here with religious thinking in context of mysticism, but I think you are over reaching. I can see how I might be wrong here, and you might be correct. I don't think I'm wrong about what I stated about the finger pointing to the moon quote.
As a Christian I can listen to Alex so much more because, even though we disagree in the end, he makes the best attempt that any atheist I see in modern day to better understand the theology of Christianity to better communicate with Christians. He still get's his jabs in, but they mean more because he seems to better understand what he's talking about. I hope all atheist can learn from him. The reverse can't be done for Christians seeing as Atheists don't have a generic decree, but I am more enganged also when Christians listen and engage Atheists on their valid points. I see that there is less talking past each other when Alex talks to Christians or others.
He should try to understand Islam because Christians don’t even understand their own religion. Also, Islam is more clear and logical. There’s only one God, not three.
IMO, as a Christian, Alex is a positive example of one debating and dialoguing in good faith. A model for an Atheist or Theist. He got on Dinesh's case in public debate quite a bit, a little too obnoxiously at some points, but aren't we all human. To his credit, Alex also steelman's Christianity when speaking with Atheists who are being simplistic, reductionist, or downright prideful and lazy. Alex is cool. And he plays a decent guitar. 🤘😎👍
The idea that God is an abstract concept like music is very attractive to me. The problem is many people who argue for God's existence do so with the strong implication that God is the stereotypical "bearded man in the sky". That conceptualization is metaphysically absurd and therefore makes the argument open to criticism.
The Santa Claus in the Sky concept is just that but God's existence and the idea being very wrong can and do co-exist. It's truly unfathomable for any human to completely understand God. All that's good in the world is the closest we'll know here. You don't have to believe in God to have some God in your life. Good friends, family, love etc positive, godly vibrations.
I never met any Christian who believed God was a bearded man in the sky. I have met non Christians who believe that Christians believe in a man in the sky. Maybe these non Christians are less reliable when it comes to facts about Christianity.
God is just a concept to attempt to describe the indescribable, to give substance to the intangible. Same reason people don't understand personal rights and the constitution. The paper only enumerates (IE lists them in statements) those rights, but the real idea is that you were born with those rights and they are divine birthright that no one ever rightfully take away from you. But most people act like that paper is actually what grants their rights and jf the paper was shredded the rights are gone. But the paper was just an illustration of an idea, just like the concept of this word, God....
"Satan is the insistant self." Exactly. And the face of God is what appears when the illusion of self drops. The more self we see, the less God we see, and the more God we see, the less self we see. Amen!
Well said. There is no better definition of hell than being stuck in the prison of yourself, your own mind and ego, which by the way is closely related to states of depression and anxiety and other mental health conditions. Heaven could be the joy of service to others, uplifting the world of humanity, and contributing towards the advancement of civilization and society
Bro I've been having those kind of discussion with myself here in Africa, cause here people are really close minded. I always though that I was crazy, until I saw people from overseas thinking like me. I really appreciate it. Thank you, I'm not alone.
Hearing this man speak of God more akin to music or physics than a dude with favors or opinions… I said aloud, “this is filling me”. Truly I’m thankful for this discussion and the topics mentioned.
@@juswolf22I get it’s not the best way to say it but you have to understand when you’re on an island void of philosophical discussion, then you hear something so completely outside of religious ideology, it does fill you. It’s like completing the parts that have been overlooked and forgotten.
There’s a great BibleProject podcast episode somewhere where they discuss the Moses and horn issue. I believe Dr. Mackie made the point that the word resembling horns is likely intentional as part of the theme of the sacrificial lamb up on the mountain offered to God. If you recall, Moses stood in the gap between God and Israel as a kind of mediator willing to die for the people. Really cool stuff.
10:10 - This section made me think of the when Richard Dawkins rebuffal of Karen Armstrong that Daniel Dennett quoted in his AAI 2009 talk: "If sophisticated theologians or postmodern relativists think they are rescuing God from the redundancy scrap-heap by downplaying the importance of existence, they should think again. Tell the congregation of a church or mosque that existence is too vulgar an attribute to fasten onto their God, and they will brand you an atheist. They’ll be right." This is just fucking sophistry, man. You have to call it out.
You are never going to get the masses to admit defeat in a public repentance from religion in a way that erases bigoted fundamentalism from existence. The best you can hope for are the underlying definitions to change while the label remains the same. Those "sophisticated theologians or postmodern relativists" that are trying to weasel their idol out of the fires of truth are cowards and deserve to be called out, even if they probably won't. However, many of those "postmodern" thinkers are not just proposing a reactionary pivot; they've been trying to advocate for both a substantial pluralism and a more internally consistent theology from day 1 and have been mercilessly vilified because of it. I think some smug satisfaction out to be derived from the fact that these so called heretics, the even bigger targets of Evangelical cancel-culture than the atheists, are now finding a public voice and following. And what must the atheist worry about? The vague spiritualist make no such absurd moral and epistemological demands to the nonbelievers as the church does. If you're worried about fake news and ill-informed quackery, note that religion has yet to succeed from a siege on the ivory towers of science; sensationalism has yet to overwhelm a tradition of thinkers dedicated to cautious and precise thinking.
This is precisely why I'm an ignostic and not an atheist now. I can't hold a negative position to something that doesn't have a coherent, non-trivial, and non-contradictory basis.
I respectfully disagree, but before I write about why I disagree I should first say, as this is probably relevant to the discussion, that I am an agnostic. I should also disclose that I am not a big fan of Richard Dawkins and therefore biased. I disagree because it is not clear to me how saying God does not exist in the same way a pen exists is sofistry. It is also not clear to me why a congregation of believers should be considered the Golden Standard for Theism. I mean, I can imagine how this argument could be considered a valid viewpoint, but my critique is that it is not the only, and might not even be the most relevant Theist viewpoint. It seems to me, but this might be my bias kicking in, mostly a strawman argument.
@@marcelfabus5850 How is it a strawman? For something to exist, it must exist somewhere, somewhen, and have actual properties( you know, like a pen.) Also, why exactly are you an agnostic? Give me a coherent, non-trivial, and non-contradictory definition of god and then we can start talking evidence and argumentation.
My big issue with his concept of "God" is that it almost abstracts the concept so far that it becomes a different thing entirely... Where it ceases to have the properties that we previously defined it by. When does it stop being the God that we were originally talking about? Is it even a Pantheistic representation at that point? Does it then become just a functional part of the universe as we know it? In which case we are DEFINED by it's existence. If "God is Physics" then what are we actually discussing any more? His point about the Radiohead gig (I have a similar experience of the brilliance of one of their shows- it's also strikingly similar to a moment of 'Kill Your Friends' by John Niven) is talked about widely in The God Delusion itself- how transcendent experiences don't have to be synonymous with religiosity or the supernatural. I was actually considering writing part of my dissertation on the effect of Music on effectively luring people into an environment and then an ideology. Before recorded music the only place to see it was likely to be the Church. People could easily misappropriate their love and feelings for the music as that of the "God" figure. Similar to the NSDAP's use of Wagner and other music at rallies. To induce feelings that then make people more likely to seek out that experience again. This is, fundamentally, just a beautiful moment that is subjectively framed as representative of whatever he defines this "God" to be. I thought we were seeking to ESCAPE subjective framing in this discussion?
Agreed if God is everything and all that transcends nature as well (panentheism) the word loses its meaning and anything can be justified as “Gods will”
Yeah, his idea of ‘God’ is so abstract and numinous that it essentially loses all meaning. I don’t think anyone really has the authority to say what ‘God’ should or shouldn’t mean. I like Rainn, but he’s essentially just talking in meaningless aphorisms here.
Do you have more information on the connection between music and ideology? I always found it odd how in some religions, prayer is only recited in song as opposed to just being read aloud.
Regarding Radiohead, I'm also a big fan. Regarding Dawkins on transcendent experiences with great works of art and music. I was in Florence recently and had the opportunity to see Michelangelo's statue of David and was moved to tears by it. I'm an atheist, so there's that, but the work itself was so exceptional that I was emotionally affected by it without any regard for the religious overtones of the piece. Something similar happened to me at the Louvre when viewing the Venus de Milo.
Love cannot be fully expressed where there is only One, for expressions of love where there is no Other can only be inwardly focused and narcissistic. We are to be of one mind and heart with God - (atonement is “at-one-ment”) - truly IN LOVE with Him (“the two shall be as one” - the Bible describes a literal marriage of heart and mind), but we will never lose our individuality or become Him.
one who makes the claim that people are thinking about God wrong, suggests that the person themselves believes they understand how God is supposed to be thought about. something which isn't proven, or isn't provable, remains subjective until an objectivity can be determined. i think a more safe statement would be something like "we don't all think of God the same way" as to be less suggestive of an implication of what is "right" and what is "wrong" do to with an unproven (and possibly unprovable) idea.
Yes, framing it as different people possessing different ideas aligns better with such a discussion as we are really just expressing our current beliefs and ideas. We do not have a way to know if anyone is "closer" or getting "warmer" to the "correct version" of God, or a god/gods (which alone assumes there is one/any). I find humility to be respectable on this topic.
'Headshotsniper' huh? Was your target/enemy a noble one, armed as well as you? Nobody lauds the man who 'shoots fish in a barrel.' Man, I'd hate to be you when I died.
@@Research0digo who is my enemy? i have no enemy in my philosophy. the fact that you're taking that to the "grrr, when you die you'll see!" extreme shows that you fit under the category of people who believe they think they know the truth about what is undeniably the unknown. that makes you ignorant and hubris.
God is love. I can safely say Christians are thinking wrongly about God because the definition of God is clearly defined in their own bible yet they continue to project a God who is hypocritical, unloving, unmerciful, unforgiving which the Bible actually calls attributes of unrighteousness.
Yes. I learned a little Tibetan, and there it makes a grammatical difference whether you have seen something personally or just heard about it. Totally alien to European languages.
Really cool hearing Rainn talk about the original meaning of sin. He is right about the connotations of sin and the fact that it’s not what a Christian should believe separates us from God, as we are all sinners. Jesus came for all sinners, and simply says that faith in Him is all that’s required.
Satsang is the spontaneous rap of an enlightened master. One who experiences unconditional love and speaks out of bliss. To be experiencing this, the words do not reach deep into your heart and usher in longing as much as the energy flowing through everyone in the shared love bliss. Now that you have experienced it throughout your body and feelings, you will always crave more satsang. Your heart will feel the love and peace. You can only grow closer to oneness letting go of old limiting thoughts and feelings . See the others experiencing the satsang and they feel so close, their eyes filled with light loving all they see.
Fascinating that the discussion started with a critique of people imagining what God is and then worshiping that construct but then turned to Raine describing how he thinks of God. Same process, different construct. God - made by people, for people. :)
Im Christian but love learning and questioning. and i agree, that is a really interesting observation. Do you think then that maybe throughout the ages, culture would have dictated what people wanted God to be? I'd actually be interested to see that. Like with the Norse cultures, there was always like powerful war gods and stuff, but in Israel, it was a good and all knowing God, i wonder if this indicates differences in culture, like maybe the norse were more barbaric or something. Its cool to think about
How can you critique people on the meaning of a word. It would be as if I critiqued everyone’s conception of what a “fork” is and then provided an alternative that me and my friends prefer.
@@timere2407 YHWH is hardly good or all-knowing. What if Russell Gmirkin is right that the pentateuch was constructed in about 270 BCE by a bunch of scholars inspired by Plato, especially his Laws?
As soon as the question was posed about whether God exists in the same way as the pen, I thought “yes!” Jesus was fully human and fully divine. And I loved the analogy of being like flies trapped in the glass - unable to understand the world beyond the glass - life beyond death and God Himself! Thank you for having these thought provoking conversations. They definitely get some minds turning.
- I love the fact that -that god loves us and knows each of us intimately and individually - and that the only reason we each exists is because loved us into existence …
The finger pointing at the moon was an iconic scene in a Bruce Lee movie. He slaps that boy for looking at his finger. I just wanted someone to acknowledge it lol
If we're thinking about God all wrong, the likelihood that we'll require a new word, non-synonymous to 'God', to describe what it is we should be thinking, will likely be exceptionally high granting the definition of "God" is already next to meaningless.
Precisely. I mean, if we're going to accept redefining that word, why not a whole bunch of other words that have been shown to be empty or bad. Ghost, demon, alchemy, vitalism, etc. Do a thorough job of confusing everyone.
The problem is that we're thinking about God, you can't get to what the word God refers to by thought. That's why thousands of years of talking over relegion has not got us one step closer.
I'm neither Baha'i nor atheist (I'm catholic), but the stuff about not worshipping our thoughts instead of what they point to is powerful, and I just recently had a realisation about the importance of intuition in understanding what we can't otherwise (also helped me think less and yet accomplish so much more).
@Research0digo Both, I think (Catholic comes from the phrase meaning a general Christian, so, I'd say all Catholics, like myself, are Christians, but not all Christians are Catholics).
Might I suggest reading the original text of the Bible. It is so different in ancient Hebrew or ancient Greek than the modern English versions we have.
@@paulschuckman6604 I'm not really into reading Bible on my own, even if I knew the language, I'd still lack the knowledge of the culture and history of that time, so I'm better off just listening about it on the mass, where the priest picks out different passages and explains them so that we know what connects them, and it takes into account all the little details of the Bible which are relevant for understanding the Bible, but we wouldn't know otherwise. So, I get it, it's a good idea, but the priests at my local church already got that part covered for me.
I've been blessed as an atheist to have a Catholic god-mother and staunch Christian older sister, both of whom are dedicated to their beliefs, wonderful debaters, and powerfully intelligent thinkers. It's not a matter of me convincing them or them convincing me of something. I believe we have grown together to simply understand and appreciate each others' differences and how to see those as similarities. I love their faith as much as I love them precisely because of what they garner from it. Doubtless, there are "bad" religious folks and I won't deny that religion can and has been used for terrible purposes. But--if I may--I find that equally for myself and them, we don't focus our debates on existence or whom is right, but rather our shared understanding of how this or that impacts our life experience. From them I've been able to better understand my own secular life and their spiritual life separate from the meaningless "I'm right you're wrong" spats that ignore all the exciting, interesting, and altogether more meaningful shared debates to be had beyond the surface. :) Best wishes you to all and your journey!
Closest I can ever remember being to God was last night. Stood outside in a dense fog with a light illuminating the swirling vault of particulate in the air. I stood there for 20 minutes scared that if I went inside I’d never see something that beautiful again
and other christians will understand sin differently. There's no definite ultimate answer to what is sin or whether it is even possible to sin, it's all just matter of interpretation and personal beliefs. And it can never be anything but that, because it's an abstract concept. Same as what is justice, what is good and what is evil. Different people will always have different interpretations.
7:32 if we just came from animals and survived the environment then that would presumably mean that religion is optional, or even a sort of diversion or detour around our base nature, but this seems to fly in the face of what the guest is saying, and the cultural experiences of most of planet earth.
@@monty3854 it's a logic problem, the same one which faces any ecological theory of hominization. If various component features evolved gradually from the last common ancestor (LCA), then which ones? And why only us? The common view is that it was a migration into a new ecosystem which caused all these attributes to evolve - language (per Deacon), mimesis (per Girard), tool usage (per archeologists in general), kinship (per Freud), religion, living in groups of 150 (Dunbar), cognition, brain growth, bipedalism, thumb opposability, etc. All of these component features have their champions and they're all vying for precedence, some joining alliances as though they developed in tandem through an autocatalytic process. And yet all these component features are always traced, in gradual steps, back to a mythical last common ancestor, the only proof of which is in analogous traits in today's living primates. So the paradox is that we got here gradually, but nobody else has, and nobody remains showing those gradual steps. Nobody seems to have noticed that there's one single trait which humans have that is absolutely absent in the animal world - reciprocal object-based aggression - which I believe produces a state of combat that is constantly left open, but which also produces the recursive potential that gave rise to all things we consider human. Since this unique human capacity - basically, "violence" - cannot be understood in gradual steps, it is a blind spot to evolutionary scientists. This same always-open state of human combat is the very stuff of word creation, ritual, and kinship; but it's totally foreign to anyone thinking in a gradualistic, bottom-up way.
"I'm doing religion right and everyone else is doing it wrong" is the only constant across all religious views. This is not a problem with "new atheists" who simply refuse to carry water for liberal religionists by accepting that their view alone is the only valid view of their religion, this is a problem with religion.
As much as I appreciate that Alex wants to focus more on investigating religious belief, I have to admit, I miss the old Alex who would call people out on their bullshit.
Ye, I understand seeing others' viewpoint, but he has been very passive for years now. When was the last time Alex said something he believed in? I think the problem is him giving his own opinion might put of guests coming onto the show...
Islam followers scared the hell out of him when he criticized it to the point he removed some great videos about the problems with Islam. So now he only criticizes Christianity because he knows that Christians aren't going to hurt him or worse.
Rainn Wilson's intuitions about God are deep and remind me of some of the greatest Christians theologians, St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas in particular. The "insistent-self" sounds extremely similar to St. Augustine's notion of sin being the "falling in on yourself" and the comment about God not existing in the same way as that pen is on par with some of Aquinas' ideas about God. Very fascinating.
"Language constrains thought": I disagree. Helen Keller had some significant insight into this. I forget her specific words, but before she learned how to communicate she said she felt as though she acted through feral instinct. It wasn't until she had a language that she could escape her more feral nature. Point being, we are a constrained species; languages give us potential to escape the constraints our more feral nature.
@retcon1991 language might get us closer to God, if there were such a thing, but it's much like taking a step towards Pluto. It might be momentarily true, but ultimately inconsequential.
I dont understand, doesnt the fact that Hellen Keller described her thought as feral before learning to communicate support that language constrains thought? Having more language would make it easier to think then, or think more broadly. Its hard to think about ideas we havent even been introduced to. That said, if one defines god as something outside existence, we will forever lack the language to understand it. I'm an atheist so I dont really need to, but it interesting to think about.
Yes...which is why we are also trapped by it. Language liberates us from ignorance but it also limits our freedom to it's borders, just as our place in history and in physical space do. That's what the flies in the bowl metaphor is getting at. Language grants complex thought and allows for the sharing and growth of thoughts. But what those thoughts can be is limited by the tools of the language used. If you speak multiple languages, this idea becomes easier to understand. Certain metaphors, syntax, and expression does shape the way we see the world around us. It encodes our priorities and how our brains take shortcuts. There are concepts that are just easier to understand and talk about in one language that may also struggle with other concepts. What language tools do we not even know we lack because of human limitations? Because of things we haven't discovered yet? Languages are as living as the people who speak them, and just as fallible.
@@thoughtlesskills what tickles our feels the most, interesting. if you think about chakra (as a concept), the heart chakra is that energy center which connects all things. Is feeling because a lower quality than thinking or its necessary fuel?
@paulschuckman6604 yeah that's obviously an unfounded opinion rooted in superstition and mythology, and what's worse is that it's not even your own opinion. It's just an opinion that you've chosen to agree with.
I appreciate even Job's confession, upon finally meeting God. "I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear, but now my eyes have seen you. Therefore I abhor myself in dust and ashes." - he had a concept of who he thought God was. But when God finally revealed Himself, Job realized his concepts were wrong. This is when Job's real relationship with God began.
The shock for Job at the end is to realise that the Yahweh that speaks to him is not governed by principles of justice that can be appealed to (as Job has been trying to do). Rather Yahweh does what ever HE wishes and does not have to reward and punish ON ANY BASIS OF FAIRNESS. This is the reality that appears to be the case in everyday life. The Hebrew for Job’s last words can better be translated ‘ As “and I tremble for dust and ashes” I.e. “I am scared for the consequences for human beings who are only dust and ashes.”
@craigfairweather3401 if this is true, then Christianity premise of an all loving god is totally collapsed. And Job's unconditional loyalty to god despite its violence turn to a methaphor of embracing patriarchy and facism for the sake of it.
wow... never thought such humility and wisdom could come from Rainn Wilson. This discussion reminds me of reply I made to a person making a point about Muslims not knowing the Bible and me making the point that neither do Christians because of language. He referenced Jn 1:3 "all thing made through him". Where the word "made" isn't even in the Greek text and the word εγενετο lemma being γινομαι means "come to be" or "come to exist". That puts a different tone to the text of a Greek writer than Hebrew changing the meaning of the first verse as well with the word for "word" in English λογος. A very deep philosophical word with not the space to expand on. "All things through him come to exist". It then comes to the question of God and how even in our modern day and the etymology of words in of itself has gotten wrong with what the ancients meant. It is best undestood when researching the logos and compare it to the use and word God that we use today. It is a point I make to Atheists as I am more of an Agnostic Theist, that I as what if we are debating here the wrong concept of God? I also love how he mentions David Bently Hart and his study of the Bhai faith.
About what rainn said about sin meaning to miss the mark in Greek, that is because of a mistranslation from Hebrew, like what Alex said about the word "karen". In Hebrew the word sin comes from the word clean or pure, as the sin is something that is to be cleaned. The same word also means to miss a target and therefore it was mistranselated in Greek.
*Glorious Qur'an* 41:43 مَّا يُقَالُ لَكَ إِلَّا مَا قَدْ قِيلَ لِلرُّسُلِ مِن قَبْلِكَ ۚ إِنَّ رَبَّكَ لَذُو مَغْفِرَةٍۢ وَذُو عِقَابٍ أَلِيمٍۢ ٤٣ Nothing is said to you, [O Muḥammad], except what was already said to the messengers before you. Indeed, your Lord is a possessor of forgiveness and a possessor of painful penalty. *2:136* Say, O believers, “We believe in *Allah* and what has been revealed to us; and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and his descendants; and what was given to Moses, Jesus, and other prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them. And to *Allah* we all submit.”
If Satan was once an angel then he's not the source of evil. There's more to the story but nobody cares, easier to blame than look in the mirror or forgive.
This is true, says the Lord is behind evil and good he does all these things, he also sends out evil spirits, makes me wonder where Satan fits into that?
Consider this, on the matter of God being purely good, and there being a potential for eternal punishment. Suppose you have a bit of enviousness in you. If you see someone or something that is the utter model of perfect goodness, your envy will make you wish you could be like that to the point you will implode under the weight of your own envy. Yet that model of pure goodness will wish you no harm, even to the point of wanting to take your envy out of you, if only you will allow this. You will suffer for your envy, but the model of perfect goodness will only wish you well, and your suffering would be the result of your own flaw which you refuse to give up. This is something like God being the utter model of perfect goodness, thus sending Jesus to remove our flaws if we're willing, and those who refuse suffering forever.
EXCELLENT point about language in this. Language affects how our brain develops and how we even think, feel, and perceive things. Its critical in the way we understand God, in the ways we can talk about it (in various languages and so on). It's why we can't understand God this way and also how we can. Amazing. ❤
2:39 - we are but flies within a glass, ignorant and oblivious of the "beyond, the beyond." And yet, we have a god "concept" equipped on our intellectual toolbelts. Doesn't quite jive, I'm afraid. Occam's solution here is the far more likely one; that man created god, not the other way around.
This has more spirituality in this podcast than many other places. I really enjoyed your podcasts on Gnosticism. I feel closer to Gnosticism Christianity having been brought up catholic.
Gnostism is vague at best and empty in morals at worse. If you want to know what the precursor of Islam was, it was gnostism. So if you are in the evil of Islam that even Alex is too afraid of talking about, then be my guest. Christianity, especially Catholicism isn't for those weak in heart or of mind.
Seriously, Alex is too smart. I'm a person with average intelligence, I cannot comprehend his mind. I've been a Christian for some many years now, I'm 100% sure of my savior, the true and living King. But I love watching his videos.
I have been "in conservative religion" for my entire life. The perception of sin as a punch on God is something Ive never heard. Sin is our missing the mark of Gods righteousness. Regardless, the overall point seems right - any chance God knows we cant understand Him in our current state so he gave us His word to help us attempt to grasp who He is? Instead we come up with our own contrary thoughts that we like better and choose to worship those thoughts instead?
@@davidarbogast37Agree. ‘God’ is nothing more than a (very old) idealisation of the ‘perfect’ man, in Christianity literally embodied by Christ. The New Testament is a revision of all the aspects of the Old that no longer fit this ‘perfect’ view, proving that while there may be some philosophical ‘truths’ in the Bible, we can’t really view theology as anything more than a psychological phenomena. What truly interests me are those who cling onto these notions NOW. Anything which I know I will never understand (like quantum physics) is truly fascinating 🤣
God is beyond us but by the grace of God he revealed himself and finally came down as the word of God made flesh, Jesus Christ. The worship of the words and not God is basic what atheists did in communism. The results; millions upon millions of deaths in the last 120 years. More than any amount in recorded human history. God exists more than us in a way. Ignoring the end goal, the oneness of God and just worship the words will end in ruin. Just look at how secular western society is right now to see this post modern life we built to slowly wipe us out.
Yeah Rainn, Alex’s new approach of bringing on guests who paint the idea of God as so dynamic and fluid and unknowable so that any critique of Christianity can be hand-waved as simply a failure of language is brilliant!
Throwing my two cents making a pseudo objective definition: The archetype resulting from anthrophizing the universe as experienced psychologically. This is short enough to be coherent. Evidence of that would be research papers showing how the god-image tends to be similar to the experience of early parenting. Also, seeing the evolution of individuals and cultures ' beliefs about the nature of God and its reflection on their life.
That's a definition created purely to say "nobody is an atheist"! I like banging strangers on stimulants more than anything at the moment so that's my god huh? 😑
@@ianbanks3016 Lots of modern theologians have held this view, most notably Paul Tillich in 'the dynamics of faith', where he talks about God as man's 'ultimate concern.' A shame that Peterson doesn't bother credit his influences.
5:42 Great point, kid. As a latter-day saint, we are trying to say this to our protestant brothers, but they think the bible is perfect, so they don't listen
Watch the full episode: ruclips.net/video/0LWEeaSFhP4/видео.htmlsi=JXUqv8IovtkbFrkg
I am not really concerned about what any particular person BELIEVES. You may believe that there is an old man with a white beard perched in the clouds, that the Ultimate Reality is a young blackish-blue Indian guy, that the universe is eternal, that Mother Mary was a certifiable virgin, or that gross physical matter is the foundation of existence.
The ONLY thing that really matters is your meta-ethics, not your meta-physics.
Do you consider any form of non-monarchical government (such as democracy or socialism) to be beneficial?
Do you unnecessarily destroy the lives of poor, innocent animals and gorge on their bloody carcasses?
Do you believe homosexuality and transvestism are moral?
Do you consider feminist ideology to be righteous?
If so, then you are objectively immoral, and your so-called "enlightened/awakened" state is immaterial, since it does not benefit society in any way.
Why does it need to the letter combination GOD? Come up with a new word for a new meaning, otherwise big danger of equation fallacy. Delusion that eg. person in ancient times is talking about the same thing
Let's not forget that Rainn's religion, the Baha'i Faith, excommunicates believers who are openly gay. Just another fake religion full of bigotry and hate. There are so many contradictions in the Baha'i writings.
Alex please cut this at 11:31 after he says “physics” the last minute discredits and looses us, then delete this comment.
@@123Homefree Looses? You mean, like getting loose from a stranglehold?
Alex and Rain Wilson is something I never expected 😅
what a time to be alive 😂❤
Right! I was like okay let me go watch LOL😂
this isn't Rainn Wilson. It's Dwight Schrute.
@@orphia6479FALSE, it’s actually someone merely dressed up as Dwight Schrute. Don’t fall for this pretender!
It was on my 2024 bingo card
We loved having you in studio, Alex! So great having you pick our brains. Excited to have you back in studio and on OUR show very soon!! 🦄
As to a devil there is no doubt, but it is he trying to get in or trying to get out? Nice discussion. I'd have loved to be there and shared this conversation with you both.
Hey rain huge fan and former Bahai. I just wanted to say that I’m a Christian now and one thing I wanted to ask you is how can you believe the Bahai principle of evil not existing when we see evil in our day to day and the old and New Testament speak to a physical and spiritual embodiment of evil
@@koushakoshkbaghi3159 Former Baha'i here too :)
Evil does not objectively exist. Good does not objectively exist. It is just our collective subjective experiences of what we like and don't like that that we give the labels evil and good.
@@koushakoshkbaghi3159 If you notice they trash Christianity subtilty while claiming to believe in all religions, you will never here them do the same to islam, hindu, buhdah etc. he will never say Christ is king or God in the flesh. the arguments are always against straw men and not what is actually in the bible in its full context and what Christians really believe. the word sin wasnt high jacked. with out Christ's blood there is no redemption. but i guaranty rain couldn't give you a genuine description of the sacrifice system set forth to the Levitical priests and how the only pure human to ever exist had to fulfill it for our redemption. they have zero understanding that christ was not just a prophet. they think all prophets were sinless, its a lie they spew out, they have no understanding that all prophets were sinners except Christ. just look at all the slavery, pdf file and war mohumid got up to that the bahais say he was from the same god as Christ. the quran denies the crusifiction of christ, yet somehow bahis say its the same god. ridiculous. as for the existence of evil, they will mock you for speaking of exorcizing demons with the name of christ and the power of the holy spirit. again showing their disingenuous claim of believing in the christ of the bible. when you dont believe sin opens doors for demons to possess you and try to minimize it all down to just little mistakes then you enable evil to rule. its that simple. rain enables evil to rule.
@@koushakoshkbaghi3159 If you notice they trash Christianity subtilty while claiming to believe in all religions, you will never here them do the same to islam, hindu, buhdah etc. he will never say Christ is king or God in the flesh. the arguments are always against straw men and not what is actually in the bible in its full context and what Christians really believe. the word sin wasnt high jacked. with out Christ's blood there is no redemption. but i guaranty rain couldn't give you a genuine description of the sacrifice system set forth to the Levitical priests and how the only pure human to ever exist had to fulfill it for our redemption. they have zero understanding that christ was not just a prophet. they think all prophets were sinless, its a lie they say, they have no understanding that all prophets were sinners except Christ. just look at all the slavery, pdf file and war mohumid got up to that the bahais say he was from the same god as Christ. the quran denies the crusifiction of christ, yet somehow bahis say its the same god. ridiculous. as for the existence of evil, they will mock you for speaking of exorcizing demons with the name of christ and the power of the holy spirit. again showing their disingenuous claim of believing in the christ of the bible. when you dont believe sin opens doors for demons to possess you and try to minimize it all down to just little mistakes then you enable evil to rule. its that simple. rain enables evil to rule.
I’ve practiced meditation and read classical Indian texts like the Bhagavad Gita and the Upanishads. When I was 18 I had an experience where I felt the boundaries of my body dissolve and that the only thing that is really is the ocean of love and bliss that was flowing through me. This has been my foundation of understanding what “God” is. No one can convince me that god is any one thing because that experience showed me that GOD IS EVERYTHING EVERYWHERE AT ALL TIMES. My task will always be to become rooted in that experience ❤
Its so trippy lol everything is god. The drywall in our house. The bunnies. Ja rule etc.
@@atedinahalf6288 Athiest: There is no God!
Pantheist: Go look in the mirror!
I feel the same!
What kind of trip were you on lol? We need context
The problem is people think god is a thing or being. In order to fit god into a definition you are creating a box for him to exist within. But god is infinite. God knows no bounds. He is everything. But simultaneously he is a "No-thing".
Good vs evil. Self Vs Other. Creator Vs Creation. Two sides of the same coin.
We are one.
4:19 Every time Alex says “Horns” he uses his fingers as a way of describing them and that is hilarious
Hahaha
I imagine whenever he's talking about horns as in the musical instrument he makes a trombone motion with his hands
Like Jan in the dinner party episode.
I looked for this comment
@nathanmcgill7249definitely, i can see how he could be very passionate about correctly differentiating between animal horns and musical horns
I have met one Baha'i person in my entire life. I was a truck driver, and i was passing through Portland, oregon when i had to stop for the night. I met a homeless man outside of a Macdonalds who was asking for some spare cash. At this moment, I can't remember if i had any cash on me or not, but i invited him to come inside and eat dinner with me. We ate together inside the McDonald's and talked for about 3 hours about EVERYTHING. this included religion, in which he explained his religious faith of Baha'ism. Our conversation was very fruitful and I'll never forget it.
I'm glad your conversation with the Baha'i man was so positive. I'm a Baha'i myself and it always makes me happy when other people like to learn about it.
Bahai here from Botswana Africa. You will receive the reciprocity everywhere in the Bahai world. We are all one
What about his religion stuck with u?
I imagine he told you all the wonderful things his faith had brought into his life 😂
Does their faith centre around scamming people for a free meal?
I don’t know about you guys, but I’m really feeling god in this Chili’s tonight
As a massive fan of the US Office, it's so surreal to see Rainn praising a RUclipsr I've watched for years from humble beginnings.
You're a brilliant man Alex. You have a long, great future ahead!
My thoughts exactly
No need to say US office, just say the Office.
Same feeling of incipient fame for Alex, whom I've also watched since his inception on YT.
Hearing Dwight's voice here is wild
hearing him speak without being insane is wild haha
False. It is tame.
Omg I didn’t even realize it was Dwight
@@Kveldrunari Which makes sense because he is a good actor; there is proper separation between the actor and the character.
i keep expecting jim to pop up and pull a prank
I loved hearing Rain describing god as an experience and feeling that more in nature and with music and love and things that connect us. That's how I think about god as well but I haven't met many people that share this perspective. Fantastic discussion all around.
Yes. God is a power that lives in all of us. The observer is god.
The Apostle Paul talks about this in Acts 17.
He says that God is in everything and sustains everything, but because we were made in his image, we are his descendance. So, we should not think that God is the sky, or the sun, or plants, or an animal... if we think this way, we would be materialists, and in materialism there is no justice nor barbary.
If there are rules in the universe, there is because someone set them. Some of them are arbitrary, like gravity. Gravity doesn't have a will or a purpose, it's not coscient, but it works in a place making life impossible and in other place making life possible, even tho it doesn't know. Someone else decides what gravity can do for good and for bad, that is, to protect or to hurt life.
@@mateusbandeira9017 Justice and barbary are based on what is beneficial or not. However because we cant see into the future any shortterm benefit can be bad in the long term and vice versa. So all we have is try and success / fail and then conclude.
I was brought to this same experience going through the 12 steps and continuing to apply those principles daily very interesting to hear this from someone else
That’s not who God is. God is a person, not a powerful feeling in nature
Let's hear what Jah Rule thinks
LOL! It's a Dave Chapelle reference right? Too funny!
Where is Ja?!
Save us Ja 😩
PLEASE!! SOMEBODY GET A HOLD OF JAH!!!
WHERE IS JA!? This is actually perfect
One of the many nice things about Christianity (I'm not a committed Christian at this point but thinking everything through) is the idea that God demystified himself for us. God is by nature hidden outside of time and space, and we can't really know anything about him, so God became a human being and came to meet us. If it's true it makes the universe a very cozy place.
edit: What a lively comments section
"God is by nature hidden outside of time and space" so he doesn't exist, then.
"God is by nature hidden outside of time and space". I think that this is a very Newtonian, classical and deist perspective. I think this is a non-trinity view of Christianity. A Spinoza-Einstein synthesis view would be something along the lines of "god is space-time". In a Thomas Hobbes view of the world, this would mean that god is some kind of leviathan creature and we are all 1 part of it.
If God was Jesus and God was the burning bush; then God has been of the world. God is also the holly spirit that remains in the world. I think that this is more along the lines of a trinity belief.
I think there are many interpretations and meanings of Christianity. It is a very adaptable religion and it is why it has survived as long as it has.
@jackkrell4238 i think what he meant in saying is god is outside of space and time he's beyond it, and supposedly created it. God is spiritual non material being, an eternal being. Which then it's plausible than he can't be something that we can comprehend but in christianity by sending himself down so than we can understand him. It comes from the new testament that "the word became flesh" the logos came before us so that we may understand it according to christianity. It's definitely thought provoking if anything. I could be wrong in understanding 🫠
Did you ever learn about the Islamic view of God?
@@jackkrell4238oh that means the unlimited number of universes that scientists made up to explain away the clear design of this one also don’t exist:)
"The closest I ever came to God was at a Radiohead concert" oh my god I love this man.
LOL
Research his old twitter posts that he deleted. Maybe not the best role model….
@@lilyd5596 who says he is a "role model"?
@@gavinpicard3003 It surly lays bare all the bullshit pontificating people do about what is god really. Every last one of those conversations is fartsniffing trying to find an intellectual excuse for the idiocy of the idea of Christianity.
Prince, but yeah.
My man is on the come up. I remember being a subscriber of Alex when he was showing his 1000th subscriber and now he's at 1 million and has Rainn Wilson on his show. Love it. Atta boy Alex ur early subs are so proud of you.
yeah I remember the days of 100k, just as I remember unsolicited advice at 8k. It's a testament to people thinking more and it almost becoming cliche in a way - its great.
I was there early on, around 2016 I think, where he reached around 2000 subs. He's come along way since then
Some of the best conversations between two people can be about the idea of a God, but only if both people willing to learn from the other person, instead of trying to bend the other to their position or opinion.
Yes.
Exactly
I guess. I have a saying: theology is ontology *ON BLACK ICE* ( and, relatedly, teleology is metaphysics *ON BLACK ICE* ). I think that speculating about an entity said to be utterly beyond/transcendent to us is largely a waste of time. I think we should stick to studying and speculating upon being (ontology) and how reality is on a general level (metaphysics).
Obviously that would be the case when the meaning of “God” can be adjusted to whatever the participants feel is worth discussing.
That term means nothing, it's whatever the person wants it to be. The traditional definition of it doesn't exist, it's all a fairytale.
It would be nice if the word "God" had any real-world reference...
This was one of the most refreshing conversations about spirituality I have ever seen. It’s this kind of dialogue that we need more of.
Completely agree. The point should be to share our thoughts, insights and understandings with one another with the goal of advancing our learning together rather than conflict or debate.
He raises a great point about debates over God not changing the atmosphere. A debate is so stringent in what it wants to achieve whereas having an "interesting conversation" about God evokes a high degree of openness to what you could talk about and how the conversation can make you feel or present yourself and your thoughts
does 'an interesting conversation about god' change the atmosphere? What does it even mean, to change the atmosphere really? No debate or conversation is ever going to settle the issue. It's a question of faith. Some people can lose or gain faith after seeing some discussion or conversation, but even when it is 'an interesting conversation about god' it is still essentially a debate and depending on internal biases different viewers will have different opinion on who was more persuasive in their arguments.
Exactly, this is why shows like Joe Rogan’s are so successful. He doesn’t make things a debate, but a long form discussions with pushback on ideas is much better imo.
Neither debate nor discussion changes the most hardened zealot because they are generally disingenuous and dishonest, especially Christians and Muslims. Both groups are renowned for their lying and subjective interpretations.
Ram Dass talked about this. The Zen saying “the finger pointing at the moon” means that teachings, symbols, or practices are merely guides meant to direct your attention toward a deeper truth. The “finger” represents the guidance, while the “moon” symbolizes the ultimate reality or enlightenment. Focusing too much on the guidance itself, rather than what it points to, can prevent you from experiencing the truth directly. It’s a reminder to look beyond words, concepts, and structures to truly understand.
Someone tell Rainn that psychedelics are used as the most excellent antidote to conventional "drug addictions". At around 10:30 into the interview, he reveals that his proclivity to become addicted keeps him from delving into the psychedelic experience. I suggest this fear is overwhelmingly unfounded.
no it is very well founded
Some people view psychedelics as a short cut to enlightenment.
@@bignoob1790 if so they are deluded
@@bignoob1790 Yes, Sir. Psychedelics are definitely NOT a guarantee for "enlightenment". With the necessary and sufficient preparation, they may provide insight and experiences that cannot be as easily attained from any other legitimate "spiritual practice" and their pedigree is based on thousands of years of testimony. The modern prohibitions have mostly sinister motivations, being insisted upon by ignorant & barbaric legalistic authorities and self-promoting & mind-controlling religious institutions. There are potential problems, which is why the the requirement of careful, thorough, and sincere investigation before using any of those substances is mandatory before any intelligent and prudent participation is attempted.
@@adamborowicz7209 Is your comment based on any personal experience with utilizing any psychedelic? Or do you speak totally by regurgitating the opinions of others whom you have chosen to credit as "authorities"? Without personal experience, you literally do not know of what you speak. You have allowed yourself to be programmed. Shame on you, if that's the case.
I appreciate this dialog so much, because it references so much of what I've been thinking about for the last year and more. The limitations of language in particular is something that we as erstwhile believers need to grasp and wrestle with. Thanks to both of you for this peek into something larger than what it appears to be.
Ya know, this designer feller may be like Elon: surprised by the flaws in his immaculate creations.
@OrmondOtvos
Kindly repeat that in ENGLISH, Miss.☝️
Incidentally, Slave, are you VEGAN? 🌱
"Don't think - feel! It is like a finger pointing a way to the moon. Don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory." - Bruce Lee, student of philosophy (and fighting) with a quote consistent with Taoism, which is consistent with Wittgenstein.
I thought that sounded familiar. Bruce Lee has so many amazing quotes 😊
@@Skye_7_7 Bruce was a philosophy student
@@jsmall10671
Yeah, and his quotes are “consistently” the ones I seek out & some of my favourites
"Running water doesnt go stale," is another one of my favorites by him.
The "finger pointing to the moon" is from a Zen saying and has nothing to do with directing one to a belief in God or "heavenly glory." It has to do with revealing that the self is illusory as a fixed form. All existence is impermanent. Focusing on the "finger" rather than what it indicates is confusing the method with the direct experience: direct experience of one's own mind, consciousness and its contents. Feeling can also be misleading as well if one regards it as revelatory. Meaning that, one has "insight" derived from "feeling" and then holds on to that. Sensations and emotions are impermanent just as thoughts are. Holding to "heavenly glory" is meeting the Buddha on the road. As another famous saying puts it, "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him." That experience is as impermanent as all others, so don't hold on to it as it too is subject to the flow of change. That is also confusing the finger for the moon.
Wittgenstein also doesn't direct one to a belief in God, necessarily. He was an agnostic. He points out the limits of rational thought just as Buddhism does. Wittgenstein’s “Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent” in Tractatus does resonate with Buddhism and Taoism, and I get where you see the connection here with religious thinking in context of mysticism, but I think you are over reaching. I can see how I might be wrong here, and you might be correct. I don't think I'm wrong about what I stated about the finger pointing to the moon quote.
"It used to be your bread and butter" AGREE! You are expanding yourself, others, and the whole conversation. Keep up the good work.
Dwight giving life advice to Ryan for the second time..
👏🏻
Ryan started the fire!
@@joshuapena6757 Damn right he did.
As a Christian I can listen to Alex so much more because, even though we disagree in the end, he makes the best attempt that any atheist I see in modern day to better understand the theology of Christianity to better communicate with Christians. He still get's his jabs in, but they mean more because he seems to better understand what he's talking about. I hope all atheist can learn from him. The reverse can't be done for Christians seeing as Atheists don't have a generic decree, but I am more enganged also when Christians listen and engage Atheists on their valid points. I see that there is less talking past each other when Alex talks to Christians or others.
He should try to understand Islam because Christians don’t even understand their own religion. Also, Islam is more clear and logical. There’s only one God, not three.
IMO, as a Christian, Alex is a positive example of one debating and dialoguing in good faith. A model for an Atheist or Theist. He got on Dinesh's case in public debate quite a bit, a little too obnoxiously at some points, but aren't we all human. To his credit, Alex also steelman's Christianity when speaking with Atheists who are being simplistic, reductionist, or downright prideful and lazy. Alex is cool. And he plays a decent guitar. 🤘😎👍
@machtnichtsseimann Dinesh earned his ridicule
@@adamgates1142I would say Dinesh was obnoxious most of the time I’ve seen him.
IMO it feels like Alex is trying to get you to let go of that bubble you were forced into.
The idea that God is an abstract concept like music is very attractive to me. The problem is many people who argue for God's existence do so with the strong implication that God is the stereotypical "bearded man in the sky". That conceptualization is metaphysically absurd and therefore makes the argument open to criticism.
I mean, it's essentially panentheism and that's nothing new.
The Santa Claus in the Sky concept is just that but God's existence and the idea being very wrong can and do co-exist. It's truly unfathomable for any human to completely understand God. All that's good in the world is the closest we'll know here. You don't have to believe in God to have some God in your life. Good friends, family, love etc positive, godly vibrations.
I never met any Christian who believed God was a bearded man in the sky. I have met non Christians who believe that Christians believe in a man in the sky. Maybe these non Christians are less reliable when it comes to facts about Christianity.
God is just a concept to attempt to describe the indescribable, to give substance to the intangible. Same reason people don't understand personal rights and the constitution. The paper only enumerates (IE lists them in statements) those rights, but the real idea is that you were born with those rights and they are divine birthright that no one ever rightfully take away from you. But most people act like that paper is actually what grants their rights and jf the paper was shredded the rights are gone. But the paper was just an illustration of an idea, just like the concept of this word, God....
"Satan is the insistant self." Exactly. And the face of God is what appears when the illusion of self drops. The more self we see, the less God we see, and the more God we see, the less self we see. Amen!
IMO This is pure froth, can you say anything tangible?
@@TurinTuramber What is not tangible about it?
@@bike4aday Everything.
@@TurinTuramber Welp I don't think I can help you there. Good luck.
Well said. There is no better definition of hell than being stuck in the prison of yourself, your own mind and ego, which by the way is closely related to states of depression and anxiety and other mental health conditions.
Heaven could be the joy of service to others, uplifting the world of humanity, and contributing towards the advancement of civilization and society
crazy crossover hell yeah
Bro I've been having those kind of discussion with myself here in Africa, cause here people are really close minded.
I always though that I was crazy, until I saw people from overseas thinking like me. I really appreciate it.
Thank you, I'm not alone.
Rainn Wilson is truly blessed to have such a famous interviewer
Finally a non-Christian religious person! Bahais are fascinating. Cant wait for this!
Oh, Baha’i? I haven’t watched yet. Cool
What's wrong with a Christian?
@@starsar2084 I think they're saying it's just so common.
@@jsmall10671 Oh okay
@@starsar2084 “what’s wrong with a Christian?” By definition, _everything!_ (Born in sin, needing redemption, etc) 😂
Hearing this man speak of God more akin to music or physics than a dude with favors or opinions… I said aloud, “this is filling me”.
Truly I’m thankful for this discussion and the topics mentioned.
“This is filling me” Pause bro
@@juswolf22I get it’s not the best way to say it but you have to understand when you’re on an island void of philosophical discussion, then you hear something so completely outside of religious ideology, it does fill you. It’s like completing the parts that have been overlooked and forgotten.
@@ryanwilliam129 I get it mr Ryan just doing the little immature games on here. Merry Christmas!
There’s a great BibleProject podcast episode somewhere where they discuss the Moses and horn issue. I believe Dr. Mackie made the point that the word resembling horns is likely intentional as part of the theme of the sacrificial lamb up on the mountain offered to God. If you recall, Moses stood in the gap between God and Israel as a kind of mediator willing to die for the people. Really cool stuff.
Yes, Moses is what Theologians call a 'type' of Jesus.
Bro he literally throws the first pair down and orders everyone killed
Awesome !
Doesn’t ancient Hebrew have only like 8000 words?
Ah yeah, Hebrew bible 8600
10:10 - This section made me think of the when Richard Dawkins rebuffal of Karen Armstrong that Daniel Dennett quoted in his AAI 2009 talk:
"If sophisticated theologians or postmodern relativists think they are rescuing God from the redundancy scrap-heap by downplaying the importance of existence, they should think again. Tell the congregation of a church or mosque that existence is too vulgar an attribute to fasten onto their God, and they will brand you an atheist. They’ll be right."
This is just fucking sophistry, man. You have to call it out.
You are never going to get the masses to admit defeat in a public repentance from religion in a way that erases bigoted fundamentalism from existence. The best you can hope for are the underlying definitions to change while the label remains the same.
Those "sophisticated theologians or postmodern relativists" that are trying to weasel their idol out of the fires of truth are cowards and deserve to be called out, even if they probably won't. However, many of those "postmodern" thinkers are not just proposing a reactionary pivot; they've been trying to advocate for both a substantial pluralism and a more internally consistent theology from day 1 and have been mercilessly vilified because of it. I think some smug satisfaction out to be derived from the fact that these so called heretics, the even bigger targets of Evangelical cancel-culture than the atheists, are now finding a public voice and following.
And what must the atheist worry about? The vague spiritualist make no such absurd moral and epistemological demands to the nonbelievers as the church does. If you're worried about fake news and ill-informed quackery, note that religion has yet to succeed from a siege on the ivory towers of science; sensationalism has yet to overwhelm a tradition of thinkers dedicated to cautious and precise thinking.
This is precisely why I'm an ignostic and not an atheist now. I can't hold a negative position to something that doesn't have a coherent, non-trivial, and non-contradictory basis.
@@jackkrell4238 agnostic*?
I respectfully disagree, but before I write about why I disagree I should first say, as this is probably relevant to the discussion, that I am an agnostic. I should also disclose that I am not a big fan of Richard Dawkins and therefore biased.
I disagree because it is not clear to me how saying God does not exist in the same way a pen exists is sofistry. It is also not clear to me why a congregation of believers should be considered the Golden Standard for Theism.
I mean, I can imagine how this argument could be considered a valid viewpoint, but my critique is that it is not the only, and might not even be the most relevant Theist viewpoint. It seems to me, but this might be my bias kicking in, mostly a strawman argument.
@@marcelfabus5850 How is it a strawman? For something to exist, it must exist somewhere, somewhen, and have actual properties( you know, like a pen.) Also, why exactly are you an agnostic? Give me a coherent, non-trivial, and non-contradictory definition of god and then we can start talking evidence and argumentation.
Been waiting for a Bahai on this show for ages, would love to see more of these deep conversations from the Bahai perspective.
Hopefully a Bahai can make a claim and defend it with actual evidence. Who knows.
Why? You enjoy wasting your time?
Agree, the Baha’i Faith has some very profound and fresh perspectives and insights. I’d like to see more on the show as well
@@TurinTuramberBaha'u'allah calls God the Spirit of Truth and the First Remembrance. I will answer any questions you would like to ask a Baha'i.
My big issue with his concept of "God" is that it almost abstracts the concept so far that it becomes a different thing entirely... Where it ceases to have the properties that we previously defined it by. When does it stop being the God that we were originally talking about? Is it even a Pantheistic representation at that point? Does it then become just a functional part of the universe as we know it? In which case we are DEFINED by it's existence. If "God is Physics" then what are we actually discussing any more?
His point about the Radiohead gig (I have a similar experience of the brilliance of one of their shows- it's also strikingly similar to a moment of 'Kill Your Friends' by John Niven) is talked about widely in The God Delusion itself- how transcendent experiences don't have to be synonymous with religiosity or the supernatural. I was actually considering writing part of my dissertation on the effect of Music on effectively luring people into an environment and then an ideology. Before recorded music the only place to see it was likely to be the Church. People could easily misappropriate their love and feelings for the music as that of the "God" figure. Similar to the NSDAP's use of Wagner and other music at rallies. To induce feelings that then make people more likely to seek out that experience again. This is, fundamentally, just a beautiful moment that is subjectively framed as representative of whatever he defines this "God" to be. I thought we were seeking to ESCAPE subjective framing in this discussion?
Agreed if God is everything and all that transcends nature as well (panentheism) the word loses its meaning and anything can be justified as “Gods will”
I do wish it could retain its actual meaning of 'make-believe cuz scared'
Yeah, his idea of ‘God’ is so abstract and numinous that it essentially loses all meaning. I don’t think anyone really has the authority to say what ‘God’ should or shouldn’t mean. I like Rainn, but he’s essentially just talking in meaningless aphorisms here.
Do you have more information on the connection between music and ideology? I always found it odd how in some religions, prayer is only recited in song as opposed to just being read aloud.
Regarding Radiohead, I'm also a big fan. Regarding Dawkins on transcendent experiences with great works of art and music. I was in Florence recently and had the opportunity to see Michelangelo's statue of David and was moved to tears by it. I'm an atheist, so there's that, but the work itself was so exceptional that I was emotionally affected by it without any regard for the religious overtones of the piece. Something similar happened to me at the Louvre when viewing the Venus de Milo.
Woah, wait what?? Never expected this crossover
This podcast looks so aesthetically pleasing! Top tier production value
Never knew how much I needed this
God is union, the falling away of duality, of returning to non-separation. The awareness that there is only the One.
💯
I like that. That resonates. Thanks, brother 🙏
Love cannot be fully expressed where there is only One, for expressions of love where there is no Other can only be inwardly focused and narcissistic. We are to be of one mind and heart with God - (atonement is “at-one-ment”) - truly IN LOVE with Him (“the two shall be as one” - the Bible describes a literal marriage of heart and mind), but we will never lose our individuality or become Him.
one who makes the claim that people are thinking about God wrong, suggests that the person themselves believes they understand how God is supposed to be thought about. something which isn't proven, or isn't provable, remains subjective until an objectivity can be determined.
i think a more safe statement would be something like "we don't all think of God the same way" as to be less suggestive of an implication of what is "right" and what is "wrong" do to with an unproven (and possibly unprovable) idea.
Yes, framing it as different people possessing different ideas aligns better with such a discussion as we are really just expressing our current beliefs and ideas.
We do not have a way to know if anyone is "closer" or getting "warmer" to the "correct version" of God, or a god/gods (which alone assumes there is one/any).
I find humility to be respectable on this topic.
'Headshotsniper' huh? Was your target/enemy a noble one, armed as well as you? Nobody lauds the man who 'shoots fish in a barrel.' Man, I'd hate to be you when I died.
@@Research0digo who is my enemy? i have no enemy in my philosophy.
the fact that you're taking that to the "grrr, when you die you'll see!" extreme shows that you fit under the category of people who believe they think they know the truth about what is undeniably the unknown. that makes you ignorant and hubris.
God is love. I can safely say Christians are thinking wrongly about God because the definition of God is clearly defined in their own bible yet they continue to project a God who is hypocritical, unloving, unmerciful, unforgiving which the Bible actually calls attributes of unrighteousness.
@@Iwillreply both Baha'u'allah and Zarathustra call God the Spirit of Truth. Baha'u'llah does also say God is the first remembrance.
We needed a Bahai perspective with Alex
How surprising to learn that Rainn Wilson can actually hold his own in a discussion with Alex O'Connor!! I did not know that he had such depth.
I thought he floundered quite a lot actually. He heard a question and then went ahead and answered a different one.
You should look into him. He is quite interesting.
He's had similar talks about his Baha'i faith on RUclips that are pretty insightful too!
@@Cindy99765 Not a problem. I actually have a degree of respect for that faith, even though I'm an atheist.
I f****n love Rainn. My word, what a talented, wise man. Wears his heart on his sleeve. What a treasure of a human we have here, folks.
Yes. I learned a little Tibetan, and there it makes a grammatical difference whether you have seen something personally or just heard about it. Totally alien to European languages.
Really cool hearing Rainn talk about the original meaning of sin. He is right about the connotations of sin and the fact that it’s not what a Christian should believe separates us from God, as we are all sinners. Jesus came for all sinners, and simply says that faith in Him is all that’s required.
Hearing Rainn Wilson quoting Wittgenstein was not on my 2024 bingo card.
4:19 Why is it so funny that three times in rapid succession Alex can't say "Horns" without miming little horns on his head?
I have replayed it several times. The word "horns" now means nothing to me unless accompanied by fingers.
Lol😅
lmao I noticed this too
Always the Padawan, never the Jedi.
😂😂😂😂🎉
What are you yapping about 😂
always sounding smart, never being...
@@360.Tapestry...stupid? Yes!That's probably what you meant, right?! That has to be it! 🤷🏻♂️👀
Satsang is the spontaneous rap of an enlightened master. One who experiences unconditional love and speaks out of bliss. To be experiencing this, the words do not reach deep into your heart and usher in longing as much as the energy flowing through everyone in the shared love bliss. Now that you have experienced it throughout your body and feelings, you will always crave more satsang. Your heart will feel the love and peace. You can only grow closer to oneness letting go of old limiting thoughts and feelings . See the others experiencing the satsang and they feel so close, their eyes filled with light loving all they see.
Fascinating that the discussion started with a critique of people imagining what God is and then worshiping that construct but then turned to Raine describing how he thinks of God. Same process, different construct. God - made by people, for people. :)
Yep
Im Christian but love learning and questioning. and i agree, that is a really interesting observation. Do you think then that maybe throughout the ages, culture would have dictated what people wanted God to be? I'd actually be interested to see that. Like with the Norse cultures, there was always like powerful war gods and stuff, but in Israel, it was a good and all knowing God, i wonder if this indicates differences in culture, like maybe the norse were more barbaric or something. Its cool to think about
You beat me to it.
How can you critique people on the meaning of a word. It would be as if I critiqued everyone’s conception of what a “fork” is and then provided an alternative that me and my friends prefer.
@@timere2407 YHWH is hardly good or all-knowing. What if Russell Gmirkin is right that the pentateuch was constructed in about 270 BCE by a bunch of scholars inspired by Plato, especially his Laws?
As soon as the question was posed about whether God exists in the same way as the pen, I thought “yes!” Jesus was fully human and fully divine. And I loved the analogy of being like flies trapped in the glass - unable to understand the world beyond the glass - life beyond death and God Himself! Thank you for having these thought provoking conversations. They definitely get some minds turning.
- I love the fact that -that god loves us and knows each of us intimately and individually - and that the only reason we each exists is because loved us into existence …
Fact?
So glad you had Rain on, this is a way more interesting conversation. So glad that rational spiritual people are being represented.
Yeah way more rational than those silly Christians. If you think Christians are irrational, then you don’t understand Christianity.
The finger pointing at the moon was an iconic scene in a Bruce Lee movie. He slaps that boy for looking at his finger. I just wanted someone to acknowledge it lol
Long before Bruce Lee that was a Zen Buddhist saying.
This conversation reminds me of my past before coming into understanding of the Bible, biblical doctrine, and through that myself.
If we're thinking about God all wrong, the likelihood that we'll require a new word, non-synonymous to 'God', to describe what it is we should be thinking, will likely be exceptionally high granting the definition of "God" is already next to meaningless.
Precisely. I mean, if we're going to accept redefining that word, why not a whole bunch of other words that have been shown to be empty or bad. Ghost, demon, alchemy, vitalism, etc. Do a thorough job of confusing everyone.
The problem is that we're thinking about God, you can't get to what the word God refers to by thought. That's why thousands of years of talking over relegion has not got us one step closer.
It really is the most pompous position because what you're really saying is I'm the only one who understands.
It is simply It
@adamgates1142 no one understands. It's pompous to think we could ever come close to understanding
I'm neither Baha'i nor atheist (I'm catholic), but the stuff about not worshipping our thoughts instead of what they point to is powerful, and I just recently had a realisation about the importance of intuition in understanding what we can't otherwise (also helped me think less and yet accomplish so much more).
Are you Catholic or Christian?
@@Research0digo All Catholics are Christian, but not all Christians are Catholic
@Research0digo Both, I think (Catholic comes from the phrase meaning a general Christian, so, I'd say all Catholics, like myself, are Christians, but not all Christians are Catholics).
Might I suggest reading the original text of the Bible. It is so different in ancient Hebrew or ancient Greek than the modern English versions we have.
@@paulschuckman6604 I'm not really into reading Bible on my own, even if I knew the language, I'd still lack the knowledge of the culture and history of that time, so I'm better off just listening about it on the mass, where the priest picks out different passages and explains them so that we know what connects them, and it takes into account all the little details of the Bible which are relevant for understanding the Bible, but we wouldn't know otherwise.
So, I get it, it's a good idea, but the priests at my local church already got that part covered for me.
I've been blessed as an atheist to have a Catholic god-mother and staunch Christian older sister, both of whom are dedicated to their beliefs, wonderful debaters, and powerfully intelligent thinkers.
It's not a matter of me convincing them or them convincing me of something. I believe we have grown together to simply understand and appreciate each others' differences and how to see those as similarities. I love their faith as much as I love them precisely because of what they garner from it.
Doubtless, there are "bad" religious folks and I won't deny that religion can and has been used for terrible purposes. But--if I may--I find that equally for myself and them, we don't focus our debates on existence or whom is right, but rather our shared understanding of how this or that impacts our life experience. From them I've been able to better understand my own secular life and their spiritual life separate from the meaningless "I'm right you're wrong" spats that ignore all the exciting, interesting, and altogether more meaningful shared debates to be had beyond the surface. :)
Best wishes you to all and your journey!
The good your parents have is of them. It's not religion, maybe it made them grand grand pa know how to write. Nothing else
I feel like religion is a error of humanity
Everyone saying they're enjoying hearing Rainn Wilson talk to Alex about religion and philosophy, I'm hyped that he's a Radiohead fan.
every sane person I know is a Radiohead fan
I saw them perform A Moon Shaped Pool in New Orleans several years ago and absolutely had that same experience.
@@Wanderingstarlet I'm very jealous, never seen them live, hope I'll get the opportunity to!
I wonder if Rainn realizes how close he came to converting himself to Spinozan near the end…
How is he not already?
Closest I can ever remember being to God was last night. Stood outside in a dense fog with a light illuminating the swirling vault of particulate in the air. I stood there for 20 minutes scared that if I went inside I’d never see something that beautiful again
As a christian i have never understood sin as anything else then the absence of connection and to and with God and therefore with the good.
And you shouldn’t. Don’t be misled by this nonsense.
That's not the Christian concept of sin, so you're not a Christian.
and other christians will understand sin differently. There's no definite ultimate answer to what is sin or whether it is even possible to sin, it's all just matter of interpretation and personal beliefs. And it can never be anything but that, because it's an abstract concept. Same as what is justice, what is good and what is evil. Different people will always have different interpretations.
Rainn Wilson sounded like he was about to start a Cthulhu cult for a second there
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
Where do I sign up?
I am not a man of faith, religion, or of "god", but this is a very informative outlook and internal analysis of religion, and of "god" itself.
7:32 if we just came from animals and survived the environment then that would presumably mean that religion is optional, or even a sort of diversion or detour around our base nature, but this seems to fly in the face of what the guest is saying, and the cultural experiences of most of planet earth.
Some would argue it was religion which elevated us.
I wouldn't but there's a case to be made.
@monty3854 then where did religion come from? Did it evolve from our brain getting bigger? How did the brain get bigger? With religion?
@@EricJacobusOfficial Who knows. I don't.
@@monty3854 it's a logic problem, the same one which faces any ecological theory of hominization. If various component features evolved gradually from the last common ancestor (LCA), then which ones? And why only us? The common view is that it was a migration into a new ecosystem which caused all these attributes to evolve - language (per Deacon), mimesis (per Girard), tool usage (per archeologists in general), kinship (per Freud), religion, living in groups of 150 (Dunbar), cognition, brain growth, bipedalism, thumb opposability, etc. All of these component features have their champions and they're all vying for precedence, some joining alliances as though they developed in tandem through an autocatalytic process. And yet all these component features are always traced, in gradual steps, back to a mythical last common ancestor, the only proof of which is in analogous traits in today's living primates. So the paradox is that we got here gradually, but nobody else has, and nobody remains showing those gradual steps.
Nobody seems to have noticed that there's one single trait which humans have that is absolutely absent in the animal world - reciprocal object-based aggression - which I believe produces a state of combat that is constantly left open, but which also produces the recursive potential that gave rise to all things we consider human. Since this unique human capacity - basically, "violence" - cannot be understood in gradual steps, it is a blind spot to evolutionary scientists. This same always-open state of human combat is the very stuff of word creation, ritual, and kinship; but it's totally foreign to anyone thinking in a gradualistic, bottom-up way.
@EricJacobusOfficial We are not the only species to show reciprocal object-based aggression.
What Rainn has shared about his journey through his life and his perspectives on things really makes me wish more people would hear from him
Rainn is the most "theater kid" you can possibly be
"I'm doing religion right and everyone else is doing it wrong" is the only constant across all religious views. This is not a problem with "new atheists" who simply refuse to carry water for liberal religionists by accepting that their view alone is the only valid view of their religion, this is a problem with religion.
There are no Liberal Religionists.
I don't think they were talking about religion.
No, that’s NOT a common view across all religions. Go do more research. And get off your fucking high horse.
Maybe it’s me personally. But religious debates on RUclips absolutely made a difference to my life
Never thought about it like that but yeah, changed my life.
I don’t see how it could be that meaningful. It’s all just prattle.
@mjt1517 videos of the greatest minds in the world debating philosophy and it means nothing to you? Bro, read a book.
"Can God be closer to something more akin to music than to a dude" made me chuckle. This whole video really resonated. Thanks
As much as I appreciate that Alex wants to focus more on investigating religious belief, I have to admit, I miss the old Alex who would call people out on their bullshit.
He only really did that with dinesh desouza.
Ye, I understand seeing others' viewpoint, but he has been very passive for years now. When was the last time Alex said something he believed in? I think the problem is him giving his own opinion might put of guests coming onto the show...
Maybe he doesn’t think it’s bullshit?
Why is it bullshit if it’s a different point of view? No one actually has the answers. It’s all our own interpretation of God
Islam followers scared the hell out of him when he criticized it to the point he removed some great videos about the problems with Islam. So now he only criticizes Christianity because he knows that Christians aren't going to hurt him or worse.
Rainn Wilson's intuitions about God are deep and remind me of some of the greatest Christians theologians, St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas in particular. The "insistent-self" sounds extremely similar to St. Augustine's notion of sin being the "falling in on yourself" and the comment about God not existing in the same way as that pen is on par with some of Aquinas' ideas about God. Very fascinating.
Coming from Bahai family and community the studying and independent investigation of truth is the first principle of the Bahai revelation and writings
Liked how this started with recognition of the limitations of language. Absolutely agree. These limitations inform our philosophies of life.
"Language constrains thought": I disagree. Helen Keller had some significant insight into this. I forget her specific words, but before she learned how to communicate she said she felt as though she acted through feral instinct. It wasn't until she had a language that she could escape her more feral nature. Point being, we are a constrained species; languages give us potential to escape the constraints our more feral nature.
Right, but just because language allows us to transcend our feral nature, it doesn't therefore follow that we can use it to understand the divine.
@retcon1991 language might get us closer to God, if there were such a thing, but it's much like taking a step towards Pluto. It might be momentarily true, but ultimately inconsequential.
@@unonymous So, our thought is still constrained.
I dont understand, doesnt the fact that Hellen Keller described her thought as feral before learning to communicate support that language constrains thought?
Having more language would make it easier to think then, or think more broadly. Its hard to think about ideas we havent even been introduced to. That said, if one defines god as something outside existence, we will forever lack the language to understand it. I'm an atheist so I dont really need to, but it interesting to think about.
Yes...which is why we are also trapped by it. Language liberates us from ignorance but it also limits our freedom to it's borders, just as our place in history and in physical space do. That's what the flies in the bowl metaphor is getting at. Language grants complex thought and allows for the sharing and growth of thoughts. But what those thoughts can be is limited by the tools of the language used. If you speak multiple languages, this idea becomes easier to understand. Certain metaphors, syntax, and expression does shape the way we see the world around us. It encodes our priorities and how our brains take shortcuts. There are concepts that are just easier to understand and talk about in one language that may also struggle with other concepts. What language tools do we not even know we lack because of human limitations? Because of things we haven't discovered yet? Languages are as living as the people who speak them, and just as fallible.
I think people don’t like idea of a God that judges, hence the profound God who is only about love
One more indicator of how its all in our heads and we just mold it into what tickles our feels the most.
@@thoughtlesskills what tickles our feels the most, interesting. if you think about chakra (as a concept), the heart chakra is that energy center which connects all things. Is feeling because a lower quality than thinking or its necessary fuel?
@@moflo6093it's nonsense really. A person doesn't need any "god", spirituality or woo to exist peacefully and succeed, those that do are the problem.
Part of the problem is that God is the Spirit of Truth and the Face of Truth. And when confronted with Truth most flee from it.
@paulschuckman6604 yeah that's obviously an unfounded opinion rooted in superstition and mythology, and what's worse is that it's not even your own opinion. It's just an opinion that you've chosen to agree with.
The unfathomable mystery of it all is what makes us feel alive i think. The constant seeking and adventure
from Rainn Wilson I learned: "whenever I'm about to do something, I think, “Would an idiot do that?” And if they would, I do not do that thing."
I still might. Evidently I have not yet achieved EnDwightenment.
I appreciate even Job's confession, upon finally meeting God. "I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear, but now my eyes have seen you. Therefore I abhor myself in dust and ashes." - he had a concept of who he thought God was. But when God finally revealed Himself, Job realized his concepts were wrong. This is when Job's real relationship with God began.
The shock for Job at the end is to realise that the Yahweh that speaks to him is not governed by principles of justice that can be appealed to (as Job has been trying to do). Rather Yahweh does what ever HE wishes and does not have to reward and punish ON ANY BASIS OF FAIRNESS. This is the reality that appears to be the case in everyday life. The Hebrew for Job’s last words can better be translated ‘
As “and I tremble for dust and ashes” I.e. “I am scared for the consequences for human beings who are only dust and ashes.”
@craigfairweather3401 if this is true, then Christianity premise of an all loving god is totally collapsed. And Job's unconditional loyalty to god despite its violence turn to a methaphor of embracing patriarchy and facism for the sake of it.
And that's obviously just a story 🤷♂️
wow... never thought such humility and wisdom could come from Rainn Wilson. This discussion reminds me of reply I made to a person making a point about Muslims not knowing the Bible and me making the point that neither do Christians because of language.
He referenced Jn 1:3 "all thing made through him". Where the word "made" isn't even in the Greek text and the word εγενετο lemma being γινομαι means "come to be" or "come to exist". That puts a different tone to the text of a Greek writer than Hebrew changing the meaning of the first verse as well with the word for "word" in English λογος. A very deep philosophical word with not the space to expand on. "All things through him come to exist".
It then comes to the question of God and how even in our modern day and the etymology of words in of itself has gotten wrong with what the ancients meant. It is best undestood when researching the logos and compare it to the use and word God that we use today. It is a point I make to Atheists as I am more of an Agnostic Theist, that I as what if we are debating here the wrong concept of God?
I also love how he mentions David Bently Hart and his study of the Bhai faith.
About what rainn said about sin meaning to
miss the mark in Greek, that is because of a mistranslation from Hebrew, like what Alex said about the word "karen". In Hebrew the word sin comes from the word clean or pure, as the sin is something that is to be cleaned. The same word also means to miss a target and therefore it was mistranselated in Greek.
*Glorious Qur'an*
41:43
مَّا يُقَالُ لَكَ إِلَّا مَا قَدْ قِيلَ لِلرُّسُلِ مِن قَبْلِكَ ۚ إِنَّ رَبَّكَ لَذُو مَغْفِرَةٍۢ وَذُو عِقَابٍ أَلِيمٍۢ ٤٣
Nothing is said to you, [O Muḥammad], except what was already said to the messengers before you. Indeed, your Lord is a possessor of forgiveness and a possessor of painful penalty.
*2:136*
Say, O believers, “We believe in *Allah* and what has been revealed to us; and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and his descendants; and what was given to Moses, Jesus, and other prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them. And to *Allah* we all submit.”
Michelangelo was correct, it is true that "karen" is evil and horny. And she wants to talk with the manager.
Sin then would be considered something dirty. Still something we don't want to have.
this is crazy, Alex has gone to a whole new level with this one!!! Dwight!!!!
I like Dwight Schrute's ideas on spirituality more than a literal perspective.
If Satan was once an angel then he's not the source of evil. There's more to the story but nobody cares, easier to blame than look in the mirror or forgive.
This is true, says the Lord is behind evil and good he does all these things, he also sends out evil spirits, makes me wonder where Satan fits into that?
Satan is the care taker of hell. Hell is the separation of man from God.
Consider this, on the matter of God being purely good, and there being a potential for eternal punishment. Suppose you have a bit of enviousness in you. If you see someone or something that is the utter model of perfect goodness, your envy will make you wish you could be like that to the point you will implode under the weight of your own envy. Yet that model of pure goodness will wish you no harm, even to the point of wanting to take your envy out of you, if only you will allow this. You will suffer for your envy, but the model of perfect goodness will only wish you well, and your suffering would be the result of your own flaw which you refuse to give up. This is something like God being the utter model of perfect goodness, thus sending Jesus to remove our flaws if we're willing, and those who refuse suffering forever.
EXCELLENT point about language in this. Language affects how our brain develops and how we even think, feel, and perceive things. Its critical in the way we understand God, in the ways we can talk about it (in various languages and so on). It's why we can't understand God this way and also how we can. Amazing. ❤
2:39 - we are but flies within a glass, ignorant and oblivious of the "beyond, the beyond." And yet, we have a god "concept" equipped on our intellectual toolbelts. Doesn't quite jive, I'm afraid. Occam's solution here is the far more likely one; that man created god, not the other way around.
man has a concept of god which is not actually god
@psalas98 so you have the correct concept? Cool.
@@Bluebloods7 There isn't one
@@psalas98 man you're so woke, teach me to be woke like you, and how to like my own comments?
@@Bluebloods7 productive 👍
Gord is Good
Dr. Dringus
Praise Gord! Holy Djengus 🙏Holy Vajonus 🙏
Who's Gord?
@@GordonGarveyevidently you are!
@wayneandrews1022 🥰
This has more spirituality in this podcast than many other places. I really enjoyed your podcasts on Gnosticism. I feel closer to Gnosticism Christianity having been brought up catholic.
Gnostism is vague at best and empty in morals at worse. If you want to know what the precursor of Islam was, it was gnostism. So if you are in the evil of Islam that even Alex is too afraid of talking about, then be my guest. Christianity, especially Catholicism isn't for those weak in heart or of mind.
Seriously, Alex is too smart. I'm a person with average intelligence, I cannot comprehend his mind. I've been a Christian for some many years now, I'm 100% sure of my savior, the true and living King. But I love watching his videos.
I have been "in conservative religion" for my entire life. The perception of sin as a punch on God is something Ive never heard. Sin is our missing the mark of Gods righteousness. Regardless, the overall point seems right - any chance God knows we cant understand Him in our current state so he gave us His word to help us attempt to grasp who He is? Instead we come up with our own contrary thoughts that we like better and choose to worship those thoughts instead?
The problem is, this "God" is purely imaginary and there's nothing anyone could present to show otherwise. 🤷♂️
@@davidarbogast37Agree. ‘God’ is nothing more than a (very old) idealisation of the ‘perfect’ man, in Christianity literally embodied by Christ. The New Testament is a revision of all the aspects of the Old that no longer fit this ‘perfect’ view, proving that while there may be some philosophical ‘truths’ in the Bible, we can’t really view theology as anything more than a psychological phenomena. What truly interests me are those who cling onto these notions NOW. Anything which I know I will never understand (like quantum physics) is truly fascinating 🤣
God is beyond us but by the grace of God he revealed himself and finally came down as the word of God made flesh, Jesus Christ.
The worship of the words and not God is basic what atheists did in communism. The results; millions upon millions of deaths in the last 120 years. More than any amount in recorded human history.
God exists more than us in a way. Ignoring the end goal, the oneness of God and just worship the words will end in ruin. Just look at how secular western society is right now to see this post modern life we built to slowly wipe us out.
Yeah Rainn, Alex’s new approach of bringing on guests who paint the idea of God as so dynamic and fluid and unknowable so that any critique of Christianity can be hand-waved as simply a failure of language is brilliant!
12:49 To exist is a quality of the physical world
Is there any concept of God thats coherent, evidence based, and useful?
No
Throwing my two cents making a pseudo objective definition:
The archetype resulting from anthrophizing the universe as experienced psychologically.
This is short enough to be coherent.
Evidence of that would be research papers showing how the god-image tends to be similar to the experience of early parenting.
Also, seeing the evolution of individuals and cultures ' beliefs about the nature of God and its reflection on their life.
@haydenbueckert3056 no
No. It is a combination of our hangups, wishful thinking, and unwarranted extrapolations.
"God is love."
God is whatever you hold in the highest regard. Whatever you place as most important in life, that's your God.
Thanks Jordan, now off you trot and scream into the void about metaphors and myths.
No its just what I like the most. I don't need to label it with a goofy term that most ppl attribute to a deity.
Then "God" seems like a totally meaningless term and I am personally happy never to use this silly word.
That's a definition created purely to say "nobody is an atheist"! I like banging strangers on stimulants more than anything at the moment so that's my god huh? 😑
@@ianbanks3016 Lots of modern theologians have held this view, most notably Paul Tillich in 'the dynamics of faith', where he talks about God as man's 'ultimate concern.' A shame that Peterson doesn't bother credit his influences.
Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica.
Intrigued, but don't understand what you're trying to say. Explain please.
@stevesmith4901 it's very subtle. You wouldn't understand.
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery
@@amirguri1335 Curses! You know my weakness--Subtlety.
Identity theft is not a joke, Jim! Millions of families suffer every year! Michael!
I'm glad to her that I'm not the only one who had a spiritual revelation while listening to Radiohead.
5:42 Great point, kid. As a latter-day saint, we are trying to say this to our protestant brothers, but they think the bible is perfect, so they don't listen
We do not claim y'all
He's not a kid. Don't be condescending.
3:55 but are you aiming for the mark is the question.
We get to choose our own mark.
@@eric8841 Unfortunately not. Suffering has a cause and we can't change that.
I love that Alex the atheist said “ speak for yourself “ on the idea that we are animals . Class act Alex
I'm a Baha'i. Rainn Wilson is a Baha'i. Look into it. It's deeper than an ocean and what the world needs today. The mystical path with practical feet.