My preacher, David Young (who was on your podcast back in 2021) actually just preached two sermons about heresy within the church and why we must avoid them at all cost. The two main heresy’s he highlighted were Progressive Christianity and Christian Nationalism. Both options are ultimately distractions from the real mission Jesus gave us: to go make disciples of all nations!
"Christian Nationalism" is actually just another name for the default position Protestant Christianity practiced and embraced prior to WW2. They just didn't call it explicitly "Christian Nationalism"... It was simply presumed to be a 'historical given' in those cases. This was however changing during the 20th century, since there were changes in academia, especially the humanities then. Any Nationalism would be an obstacle to globalitarianism... so it had to be deconstructed peace by peace. To know this a good overview on the developments of social thought is of course necessary. Most people don't have that. They have no clue that 'traditional social thought was systematically' deconstructed using hermeneutical approaches and critical theory, as well as a lot of gaslighting. One just needs to study the emergence and development of terms like 'prejudice', 'ethnocentrism', 'racism', etc. This didn't happen over night of course. It was induced by 'progressive intellectuals' with backgrounds in anthropology, psychology, sociology, philosophy... Important milestones were Boasian Anthropology, the Frankfurt School with 'critical theory' (Marxism applied to culture and psychology), Deconstructionism and various other 'intellectual projects'. Those engaging in it were apparently well funded and well connected to make advances within academia... The common thread was their hate for the 'existing' meaning occidental culture, religion and society. This is especially directed against Christianity, but also White people in general, since they were the carriers of Christianity over the ages. On theological fields there were the social gospel, dialectical theology and various 'genitive theologies' developed in concert with aforementioned (pseudo-) intellectual developments. The overall project got something "missionary" about it, just that it isn't about 'preaching the gospel', well not a gospel about the crucified and resurrected son of God that is. They do however have something like a gospel. Destroy Western Culture, destroy the social fabric and then use psychology and technology to 'create a new man'... while it is left open after whose image that should be.
We already have a Christian Prince. Two, in fact. One is the Pope, who is a failure and not a prince the true church recognizes as authoritative; I’m saying the Catholic Church already tried this very description and failed. The other is Christ whom we already have and whom we need no mediator for because he IS our mediator. This is what happens when the church tries to take a role Christ NEVER gave it because HE will usher in his kingdom without human help. The only reason some believers want a nation is fear. We’re losing our societal privileges and slowly going back to the persecuted early church. Rather than accept persecution as we are told to, we’re trying to save our earthly lives under the guise of faithfulness to God. The sad thing is that this will likely be attempted with the help of the NAR movement in reaction to increased evil, such that the devil will deceive many at once just as the Bible says he will.
I'm just a poor wayfaring stranger a traveling through this world of woe. But there's no sickness nor toil or danger in that bright world to which I go. I'm going there to see my Father I'm going there no more to roam. I'm just a going over Jordan I'm just a going over home. I'm just a poor wayfaring stranger a traveling through this world of woe but there's no sickness no toil or danger in that bright world to which I go. I'm going there to see my Savior. I'm going there no more to roam. I'm just a going over Jordan I'm just a going home. Andy Griffith version 🤗
"... the good prince resembles God to the people. Indeed, he is the closest image of God on earth. ... a mediator of divine rule ..." That is rank heresy. There is one Mediator between God and man.
Thank you for addressing this controversy! As a lifelong Reformed Presbyterian, I can tell you that the Westminster Confession of Faith does not promote theonomy! It is a teaching tool for basic Biblical truths in the Word of God.
"A nation is a group of people who see themselves as a people." Then my nation is the church. 1 Peter 2:9 Which includes all ethnicities. Matthew 28:19, Revelation 7:9
I’m not going to buy this book, the case for Christian nationalism, but I would love to know who has endorsed it, (the endorsements you see in the first several pages of a book). I know Doug Wilson was a big part of this book and possibly even helped write it. His publishing company, Canon press, published the book.
Christian nationalism is simply another name for fascism. This has been tried many times throughout history and it has never turned out well. It's destructive to the church, to the state, and to the people who live under that system of government. The many religious wars in European history was the very reason the founders enshrined religious liberty into our Constitution and separated the state from the affairs of the church, and vice versa. I thought the podcast discussion was very good and insightful. However, I wish there had been a discussion of the aberrant "Christian" groups such as the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. Under a Christian nationalist government would these groups be treated like Muslims and Hindus as well? Finally, for those who are tempted by Christian nationalism I would suggest they first take a deep look at other states governed by religious nationalist governments such as Iran and Saudi Arabia. What Christian nationalism offers is simply a Christianized version of what we see today in Iran. In my view, the better approach is to simply embrace the advice of the Apostle Paul found in 1 Corinthians 5; namely that we leave those outside the church to God and focus our attention on the affairs of the church. In this way we avoid both the dangers of progressive Christianity on the left and Christian nationalism on the right.
Amen! Whose version of Christianity would become the dictator of Truth? Which branch from the Protestant tree? Or do Catholics have a say? Eastern Orthodox? What do you do about the Mormons, JW's, Christian Scientists, etc.? How about other faiths? Europe has a long history of war and genocide over these divisions in faith and belief. Are we too arrogant to recognize the faults in this pursuit such that we ignore the humanity of others for this "virtuous" cause? Is your vision of Christ a loving shepherd or vengeful and condemning ruler?
Wikipedia: Christian nationalism is Christianity-affiliated religious nationalism. Christian nationalists primarily focus on internal politics, such as passing laws that reflect their view of Christianity and its role in political and social life. Christian nationalists support the presence of Christian symbols and statuary in the public square, as well as state patronage for the display of religion, such as school prayer and the exhibition of nativity scenes during Christmastide or the Christian Cross on Good Friday. Christian nationalists draw support from the broader Christian right. Christian Nationalism is at odds with the First Amendment and the founding document The American Constitution which contains no mention of Christianity. The Founding Fathers opposed the use of public money to support the promotion of a particular belief.
Ok, Wow, so many problems with the book. Infant baptism, A sovereign ruler Christian Prince a type of a Vicor of Christ. Not defining the word Nation??? On & on .... So this was interesting.. but NO! .... Next.
There are three of problems I see with the notion of Christian Culture. The first is the fact certain people are subjected to abuse rather than Christian love in the name of Christianity. The second is Christian Culture often encourages and rewards people for living a lie. Third, I think there is a tendency to create a sense of dependency on the part of the Father in evangelism. Christian culture tends to ostracize, marginalize, and punish people who don't fit the "Christian" mold. Sometimes the Christian "moldL is shallow and superficial, such as not wearing sweater vests to church (silly example but you get the point). Too often, Christian culture uses Christianity as a pretense to treat people very badly, and in ways Jesus would never treat them, as if the Father has given us license to behave in ways not otherwise allowed by scripture because people are "sinners." There have been very atrocious things done in the name of Jesus, by people who are lying about their relationship with the Father. Too often these people maintain a publicly acceptable, even exemplary, image while commiting acts of violence, sexual immorality, and financial dishonesty in secret. There have been many people lauded as good Christians who concealed evil. I prefer a world in which people live honestly. Finally, the Father is no less capable of saving an individual immersed even the most darkest of cultures. If we reason correctly, the Father does not need us to save people, but allows us to participate in what He is doing anyway. No one is lost for lack of human competence. The Father is sovereign over His creation and we cannot derail His plans for anyone no matter how hard we try. Therefore immersion in a Christian culture does not make any more or any less Christians in and of itself.
Different conversations I see seem to use different definitions of what "Christian nationalism" is. To some people, it seems to include Christian citizens voting and operating within the U.S. democratic system and process to advocate for their values (ala winning elections, appointing justices, and the Dobbs decision). To other people, it seems to involve a more expansive overturning of the democratic system itself to enshrine Christianity in law in ways that the electoral process could never change. Personally, I would tend to restrict the term's definition, insofar as it's something negative I disagree with, to the latter.
Yes, I find that critics can define CN as something I would reject, whereas proponents can define it in terms I affirm. Most conversations on the topic do not do much justice to the varying views. Neil Shenvi is the only critic of CN I have heard do justice to the breadth of views that fall under this heading.
I am not sure you can legislate morality, other than the right to defend your property and your life. So the state can criminalize murder and theft of property, but nothing else, because every citizen has a god given right to defend his life and property, and everybody would accept the state’s role of doing this for its citizens. Other than that you cannot and should not legislate morality,, so only two of the 10 commandments, you shall not kill and you shall not steal should be legislated. But we should not prohibit every ungodly behaviour out there like the practice of satanism, homosexuality, hard drugs, transgender practices, prostitution, etc.
A book may not just be selling because the topic is beloved; I think in this case people are looking to find out more before forming an opinion. To answer the question where they stand on this, they first want to know what this is about, and then see if it is something they would subscribe to or not. Going on malevolent hearsay is not a good source.
Grace and Peace to you. I once was against Christian Nationalism. Now, I'm in favor of it, but I'm at odds with many of its proponents because of the syncretism of American patriotism, conservatism, the Republican Party and Christianity.
That fact alone means you were right the first time. The only Christian kingdom coming is the one established by Christ. Jesus said we would be persecuted and that the empire to come was the Antichrist’s. Now you know that the devil will deceive believers so why in the world would you ignore the red flags of syncretism when it’s obvious that trying to create a Christian nation is a result of fearing persecution and making the excuse that if we’re a nation we can reach people better (try using that excuse with St. Paul)?? If there’s a coming false Christianity, don’t you think it would be one that plays into a larger system like the Republican Party and promises worldly comfort and rejection of suffering for the gospel while claiming to do all this for God?
@@Window4503 Grace and Peace to you. "Now you know that the devil will deceive believers so why in the world would you ignore the red flags of syncretism when it’s obvious that trying to create a Christian nation is a result of fearing persecution and making the excuse that if we’re a nation we can reach people better (try using that excuse with St. Paul)??" I don't believe I'm ignoring the red flags. My political behavior remains unchanged. Only my rhetoric is different as a result of my change of opinion. I don't expect any significant good to come from political activism. I felt that way before I approved of Christian Nationalism, and I feel that way now. " If there’s a coming false Christianity, don’t you think it would be one that plays into a larger system like the Republican Party and promises worldly comfort and rejection of suffering for the gospel while claiming to do all this for God?" I pretty much think that's what's happening. In fact, I think the supposed Globalist takeover is a red herring. My understanding of Revelation 6 leads me to believe that world domination will come through war, not guile alone. To approve of Christian Nationalism isn't to reject your hypothesis. My approval of Christian Nationalism is simply manifested in my belief that government legislation and policies should reflect Judeo-Christian values and the parts of the law of Moses, including 9 of the 10 commandments. But again, I don't expect much from the current system because it's a part of the 4th beast kingdom of Daniel 2 and Daniel 7. It won't be reformed. Jesus will destroy it and replace it with his kingdom. Until then, we occupy . . . . So, don't fret. You won't find me storming the capitol. I'm non-resistant. I don't even believe in self-defense (Matthew 5:39) . . . .
Where is God’s word on this 2 Corinthians 10:5-We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.
Uh...NO. "Christian" Nationalism is basically the antithesis of everything Christ taught and the way He lived His life. He NEVER in ANY way suggested that His disciples should have "dominion" over others, or that non-believers should be coerced into obeying His commandments. What He DID say was that His kingdom was"not of this world". He also said one of our priorities should be concern for the poor, the sick, and the marginalized, as well as loving our neighbor as ourselves....which these "Christian" Nationalists seem to pretty much ignore, concerning themselves instead with admiring the wealthy and judging others when they themselves are not without sin.
My conclusions have settled into this: In matters of: Morality in the civil law sense vs morality in religious law sense. I put it that way meaning that civil law protects us as citizens no matter each persons beliefs and even atheists. To make any law that involves putting actions on one that may go against their beliefs by enforcing behaviors of another belief system, violates the conscience. Jesus never violated the conscience. Our country was built on freedom of religion. Jesus gave data and allowed each to decide. Example: During the days of the blue laws in America, a Sunday rest law was put on the books. Because this violated the constitution… “ Congress make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting its free exercise.” The Sunday blue law was challenged in violating this and resulted in halting a requirement of Sunday rest. The combining of church and state, in history, resulted in persecution and tyranny. Christian nationalism would result in repeating history. Jesus promoted freedom of choice by one’s own conscience. We cannot force Christianity on anyone. True Christianity comes from a personal choice anc experience between the person and the Lord. Civil laws are nit matters of conscience but in place for us to live in peace with it without a religious motive by the citizen. The newer laws (non Christian based) are resulting in violating the religious freedoms. Example : alphabet group, suing a bakery for exercising their right to freedom of conscience and requiring them to participate in something that would violate their conscience. That is impossible for a true believer to do. The moral law of God is covered in our civil Laws that covers all people making it illegal to kill, steal, etc. going beyond these actions in creating laws crossed over into violating freedom of conscience even the freedom to be atheist. Christian nationalism will cause overreach in spiritual matters by law. This is a violation nog God giving us freedom of conscience. It will result in the atrocities of history repeating itself. Read a history of the reformers, martyrdom and the ruling church killing God’s people and thinking the do God service. [Jhn 16:2-3 KJV] 2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. 3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.
I’m kind of afraid to ask the question, because all three of you seemed so certain that this was a terrible idea, but why would it be wrong to vote for something that did make pagan temples and the like illegal? Wouldn’t that be something God would want?
@Sydney Bell I get that about the first amendment, but in a hypothetical world where we don't live in a place that already makes this an impossibility, biblically why would it be wrong to outlaw pagan temples?
@Sydney Bell Where in the Bible does it say anything close to freedom of religion is more important than dismantling pagan high places? I grew up in America where freedom of religion has been integral to my understanding of ... life and justice, but I am trying to square that with the Bible and I'm having a hard time.
Religious wars between Protestants and Catholics where...*checks notes*...Catholics fought Catholics, Protestants fought Protestants, Catholics and Protestants allied... The Myth of Religious Violence has been recommended and so far it's looking good. Blaming religion on the wars during the formation of centralized states is one of the major topics.
Ooooh.... No No No. NO! If you were to look into Pastor Doug Wilson of Christ Church in Moscow, ID, whose motto is "All of Christ for all of life" and who stood up to the pandemic mandates, you will see a cerebral form of Christian response to globalism, atheism, neo-communism, etc. that has NOTHING to do with the charismatic NAR movement where they call themselves Apostle and Prophet and have a prosperity gospel thing going on. The NAR might theoretically be drawn to Christian Nationalism sensing a common goal, but authors like Stephen Wolfe would NOT return the interest because they're not that sort of Christian, they're reformed. The NAR would also soon probably be disenchanted at the lack of mystification and pentecostalism that's just simply NOT employed or part of Christian Nationalism.
That’s spot on. That’s what a lot of their prophecies are about. It would not surprise me if they tried to make it happen once persecution increases and weak believers try to hold onto their worldly comforts.
This ethnic and race stuff that Neil is talking about midway through the video, SO CONCERNING! I’m a missionary in Japan married to a Japanese. We have people from all over the world in our church. We are FAMILY! We care for each other through all of life’s ups and downs. When my family here is bed ridden and dying I will be by their side caring for them as if they were my own blood mother/father, brother/sister. This division is NOT for the Bod of Christ!
Ya but don’t culture have the right to save there culture there way of life? I don’t see the bible advocating for total culture destruction the way you are advancing for.
My Bible says… “Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all. Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony. And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God. And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.” Colossians 3:11-17
@@marssionary your using text out of context the verse is about salvation. Not about weather culture should be destroyed. I love Japanese culture i believe Japanese should have a right to be Japanese. I think your a horrible missionary if you want to force Japanese not to be Japanese.
@@marssionary you are the one bringing division into the church by forcing your way of life into other. I will defend the Japanese culture right to exist.
@@marssionary i think there is clearly fundamental racism that clouds your mind if think about cultural genocide the way you are talking about. I really hope the holy spirit convinces you.
Just because it's not heaven doesn't mean we shouldn't fight for what's right. God requires us to be light in darkness. Vanderbilt hosp in Tennessee and Boston's children hospital are cutting the genitals off 15 year olds in their "gender clinics". We need to use the power of a Christian state to crush the chances of this continuing.
Yes, he does attend Summit (he confirms this on his Twitter bio). I agree, it’s very confusing given how Greear has given credence to CRT talking points and is responsible for the disastrous Resolution 9 at the 2019 SBC convention.
Yes, he does…at least at the last known info. This podcast is a train wreck. Unfortunate. Check out Jon Harris’ Conversations That Matter. Search for both Shenvi and Wolfe.
I'll say this. I have benefited greatly from Shenvi's ministry, especially related to CRT in the evangelical church. However, I have learned over the years to read the primary sources he reviews for myself so that I can come to my own conclusions and not wholly rely on his opinion (although I have mostly agreed with him.) I don't know if either Krista or Alisa have read Wolfe's book; I have. Shenvi's review gives a mostly negative slant and misses the overall spirit of Wolfe's work. If you are unfamiliar with this topic, I would suggest you read Wolfe's book for yourself. Also, watch the recent Founder's messages on CN from Voddie Baucham and Tom Ascol. The CRT/Woke crowd has made CN into a boogeyman by using it synonymously with whiteness/bigotry. It's important that we don't play into their game. I'm not completely defending Wolfe's view but trying to encourage people to avoid relying on others' opinion rather than seeking out the truth for themselves.
My thoughts as well! When people set out to discuss this topic without having read Wolfe's book, I immediately lower my expectations for the conversation, and especially with Krista who by her own admission is still learning or hasn't fully arrived at an opinion about this, or knows enough to form one.
In agreement with you as well. Gather all the information that's possible in order to have complete picture of the issue. The CN term is being used as a tactic to eventually silence Christians on many issues for fear of being labeled as a CN.
Agree 100%. The progressives are using CN as a derogatory term. But that should not deter us. We should expect them to do that when we try to live out God's word outside the 4 walls of the church into the culture and politics
I'm not going to let progressives keep me from using certain phrases. They don't get a monopoly on language. That just makes it important to carefully define what we mean. To me, it's simple; look at the term itself: Christian nation-alism is the belief that America is a Christian nation, and any beliefs that stem from that. That's a falsehood that should concern the church, not just progressives.
This political ruler would be a Protestant Pope who speaks encyclicals in excatgedra. It would truly be tge emd if a secular democracy. Which is all we have ever had. Prince's are not elected.
Interesting, I'm a Christian who has a lot of problems with the new "liberal" left. They have made me more conservative. However, recently, I realized I am more classically liberal. I want the government to leave us alone and allow us to follow our conscience and to worship as we choose. That is what classical liberalism means to me. However Christian Nationalism (which I don't think will ever happen in USA) seems like we are forcing people into outward behavior that aligns with our value. The problem with that is, where do you stop? Which Christians get to be in charge. With classical liberalism, we get to be free to serve God according to our conscience. But maybe I don't understand the definitions fully
@David Rybikov yes David is right. Classical liberalism is one of the reasons why we have drag queen story hour and other bad fruits. We will have a national religion of some kind. We have to choose what that religion is going to be. As a Christian, I want a Christian nation
@nikao2008 however, there are classical liberals who don't believe in drag queen story hour because it harms kids. The idea of the government telling me how to worship terrifies me personally. If I don't agree with the doctrine of the state, I am under judgement. Eeek. I'll take gay marriage. Appreciate the discussion:)
You don’t want either. Guess who’s on the nationalist train? NAR false prophets. Just wait for Christ. Humans suck at governing as long as they’re fallen.
No. It’s not. Christ never commanded it. Trying to create a Christian nation before he returns is a rejection of the suffering we’re called to and plays right into the devil’s hands. You think a Christian nation will be spiritually safe? Jesus himself warns of false Christs and false teachers. What better way to pull that off than by scaring Christians with increased secular wickedness so that they compromise try to create a Christian utopia, which will likely become the Harlot? You were told to GO and make disciples of all nations, not stay and make a Christian nation. If Christ wanted that, he wouldn’t have scattered the early believers when they could have stayed and grown into a kingdom like Christian nationalists want.
@@Window4503 there's a difference between trying to build an earthly utopia, and not letting literal satanists infiltrate your land and legislative system, you quack. The entire Bible is a story of peoples and nations.
This conversation is very hard to follow…Israel is still in a covenant with God. It is irrevocable….Our job as believers is to share the gospel, serve others. And to vote to keep our nation free and as godly as possible. End of story.
Old Testament Judaism (Matthew 5:43; Hebrews 7:11) is not New Testament Christianity (Matthew 5:44; Hebrews 7:12). Oy! Romans 7:7-13; Matthew 23:27-28; Galatians 3 - Exegesis 2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the is taken away in Christ. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.
Nationalism of the Old Testament: 1 Samuel 15:3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys. LOL
sorry but you are making a very weak argument. the first question is why God tells Israel to totally destroy them. secondly, who are the Amalekites something which you care nothing about? you act and sound like God had nothing better to do than just destroy a nation that, in fact, was related to Israel. it's s like you just read 1 Samuel 15 and decided to build a very bad argument around it. And from that standpoint sorry it's weak you need to learn some biblical history. Context is key and also you seem to be assuming that I am fundamentalist and agree with the argument.
@@claudiabailey5302 Your personal god played the CONVERT-OR-DIE card to all these tribes (countries:) Amalekites (1 Samuel 15:3) Midianites (Numbers 31:15-18) Jabesh-Gilead (Judges 21:10-11) Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites (Deuteronomy 20:16-18) "who are the Amalekites something which you care nothing about" Your ALL-POWERFUL god just had no other way than to kill men and women, children and infants. YOU don't care about GENOCIDES when it is your personal god ordering it.
My preacher, David Young (who was on your podcast back in 2021) actually just preached two sermons about heresy within the church and why we must avoid them at all cost. The two main heresy’s he highlighted were Progressive Christianity and Christian Nationalism. Both options are ultimately distractions from the real mission Jesus gave us: to go make disciples of all nations!
Do i lose my salvation for being a Christian nationalist? Sounds like legalism not Christianity
"Christian Nationalism" is actually just another name for the default position Protestant Christianity practiced and embraced prior to WW2. They just didn't call it explicitly "Christian Nationalism"... It was simply presumed to be a 'historical given' in those cases. This was however changing during the 20th century, since there were changes in academia, especially the humanities then. Any Nationalism would be an obstacle to globalitarianism... so it had to be deconstructed peace by peace. To know this a good overview on the developments of social thought is of course necessary. Most people don't have that. They have no clue that 'traditional social thought was systematically' deconstructed using hermeneutical approaches and critical theory, as well as a lot of gaslighting. One just needs to study the emergence and development of terms like 'prejudice', 'ethnocentrism', 'racism', etc. This didn't happen over night of course. It was induced by 'progressive intellectuals' with backgrounds in anthropology, psychology, sociology, philosophy... Important milestones were Boasian Anthropology, the Frankfurt School with 'critical theory' (Marxism applied to culture and psychology), Deconstructionism and various other 'intellectual projects'. Those engaging in it were apparently well funded and well connected to make advances within academia... The common thread was their hate for the 'existing' meaning occidental culture, religion and society. This is especially directed against Christianity, but also White people in general, since they were the carriers of Christianity over the ages. On theological fields there were the social gospel, dialectical theology and various 'genitive theologies' developed in concert with aforementioned (pseudo-) intellectual developments. The overall project got something "missionary" about it, just that it isn't about 'preaching the gospel', well not a gospel about the crucified and resurrected son of God that is. They do however have something like a gospel. Destroy Western Culture, destroy the social fabric and then use psychology and technology to 'create a new man'... while it is left open after whose image that should be.
agreed!
Christ actually said "Disciple the nations" that's the greek construction
We already have a Christian Prince. Two, in fact. One is the Pope, who is a failure and not a prince the true church recognizes as authoritative; I’m saying the Catholic Church already tried this very description and failed. The other is Christ whom we already have and whom we need no mediator for because he IS our mediator. This is what happens when the church tries to take a role Christ NEVER gave it because HE will usher in his kingdom without human help.
The only reason some believers want a nation is fear. We’re losing our societal privileges and slowly going back to the persecuted early church. Rather than accept persecution as we are told to, we’re trying to save our earthly lives under the guise of faithfulness to God. The sad thing is that this will likely be attempted with the help of the NAR movement in reaction to increased evil, such that the devil will deceive many at once just as the Bible says he will.
TRUTH! Proverbs 23 :23
On Christ the solid rock I stand all other ground is sinking sand. all other ground is sinking sand.
Amen
I'm just a poor wayfaring stranger a traveling through this world of woe. But there's no sickness nor toil or danger in that bright world to which I go. I'm going there to see my Father I'm going there no more to roam. I'm just a going over Jordan I'm just a going over home. I'm just a poor wayfaring stranger a traveling through this world of woe but there's no sickness no toil or danger in that bright world to which I go. I'm going there to see my Savior. I'm going there no more to roam. I'm just a going over Jordan I'm just a going home. Andy Griffith version 🤗
Wonderful conversation. Alisa’s channel has introduced so many brilliant thinkers to my world!
"... the good prince resembles God to the people. Indeed, he is the closest image of God on earth. ... a mediator of divine rule ..."
That is rank heresy. There is one Mediator between God and man.
Looking forward to this! ❤️
Thank you for addressing this controversy!
As a lifelong Reformed Presbyterian, I can tell you that the Westminster Confession of Faith does not promote theonomy!
It is a teaching tool for basic Biblical truths in the Word of God.
"A nation is a group of people who see themselves as a people."
Then my nation is the church. 1 Peter 2:9
Which includes all ethnicities. Matthew 28:19, Revelation 7:9
Awesome! I learned so much!
This "Christian Prince" sounds like the Mahdi of Shia Islam.
Beautiful!! 😍
I’m not going to buy this book, the case for Christian nationalism, but I would love to know who has endorsed it, (the endorsements you see in the first several pages of a book). I know Doug Wilson was a big part of this book and possibly even helped write it. His publishing company, Canon press, published the book.
Christian nationalism is simply another name for fascism. This has been tried many times throughout history and it has never turned out well. It's destructive to the church, to the state, and to the people who live under that system of government. The many religious wars in European history was the very reason the founders enshrined religious liberty into our Constitution and separated the state from the affairs of the church, and vice versa.
I thought the podcast discussion was very good and insightful. However, I wish there had been a discussion of the aberrant "Christian" groups such as the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. Under a Christian nationalist government would these groups be treated like Muslims and Hindus as well?
Finally, for those who are tempted by Christian nationalism I would suggest they first take a deep look at other states governed by religious nationalist governments such as Iran and Saudi Arabia. What Christian nationalism offers is simply a Christianized version of what we see today in Iran.
In my view, the better approach is to simply embrace the advice of the Apostle Paul found in 1 Corinthians 5; namely that we leave those outside the church to God and focus our attention on the affairs of the church. In this way we avoid both the dangers of progressive Christianity on the left and Christian nationalism on the right.
Amen! Whose version of Christianity would become the dictator of Truth? Which branch from the Protestant tree? Or do Catholics have a say? Eastern Orthodox? What do you do about the Mormons, JW's, Christian Scientists, etc.? How about other faiths? Europe has a long history of war and genocide over these divisions in faith and belief. Are we too arrogant to recognize the faults in this pursuit such that we ignore the humanity of others for this "virtuous" cause? Is your vision of Christ a loving shepherd or vengeful and condemning ruler?
Well said.
One point. JWs and Mormons are NOT Christians. Period. Their concepts of Christ and God are radically different than those in scripture.
Your first statement is simply wrong
Wikipedia:
Christian nationalism is Christianity-affiliated religious nationalism. Christian nationalists primarily focus on internal politics, such as passing laws that reflect their view of Christianity and its role in political and social life.
Christian nationalists support the presence of Christian symbols and statuary in the public square, as well as state patronage for the display of religion, such as school prayer and the exhibition of nativity scenes during Christmastide or the Christian Cross on Good Friday.
Christian nationalists draw support from the broader Christian right.
Christian Nationalism is at odds with the First Amendment and the founding document The American Constitution which contains no mention of Christianity.
The Founding Fathers opposed the use of public money to support the promotion of a particular belief.
Ok, Wow, so many problems with the book. Infant baptism, A sovereign ruler Christian Prince a type of a Vicor of Christ.
Not defining the word Nation??? On & on .... So this was interesting.. but NO! .... Next.
There are three of problems I see with the notion of Christian Culture. The first is the fact certain people are subjected to abuse rather than Christian love in the name of Christianity. The second is Christian Culture often encourages and rewards people for living a lie. Third, I think there is a tendency to create a sense of dependency on the part of the Father in evangelism.
Christian culture tends to ostracize, marginalize, and punish people who don't fit the "Christian" mold. Sometimes the Christian "moldL is shallow and superficial, such as not wearing sweater vests to church (silly example but you get the point). Too often, Christian culture uses Christianity as a pretense to treat people very badly, and in ways Jesus would never treat them, as if the Father has given us license to behave in ways not otherwise allowed by scripture because people are "sinners."
There have been very atrocious things done in the name of Jesus, by people who are lying about their relationship with the Father. Too often these people maintain a publicly acceptable, even exemplary, image while commiting acts of violence, sexual immorality, and financial dishonesty in secret. There have been many people lauded as good Christians who concealed evil. I prefer a world in which people live honestly.
Finally, the Father is no less capable of saving an individual immersed even the most darkest of cultures. If we reason correctly, the Father does not need us to save people, but allows us to participate in what He is doing anyway. No one is lost for lack of human competence. The Father is sovereign over His creation and we cannot derail His plans for anyone no matter how hard we try. Therefore immersion in a Christian culture does not make any more or any less Christians in and of itself.
Different conversations I see seem to use different definitions of what "Christian nationalism" is. To some people, it seems to include Christian citizens voting and operating within the U.S. democratic system and process to advocate for their values (ala winning elections, appointing justices, and the Dobbs decision). To other people, it seems to involve a more expansive overturning of the democratic system itself to enshrine Christianity in law in ways that the electoral process could never change. Personally, I would tend to restrict the term's definition, insofar as it's something negative I disagree with, to the latter.
Yes, I find that critics can define CN as something I would reject, whereas proponents can define it in terms I affirm. Most conversations on the topic do not do much justice to the varying views. Neil Shenvi is the only critic of CN I have heard do justice to the breadth of views that fall under this heading.
There is only one nation God founded - Israel. All other nations belong to the pagan group of nations.
When you mix Christianity with politics, it's like mixing poop with ice cream. It doesn't do much for the poop, but it sure does wreck the ice cream.
I am not sure you can legislate morality, other than the right to defend your property and your life. So the state can criminalize murder and theft of property, but nothing else, because every citizen has a god given right to defend his life and property, and everybody would accept the state’s role of doing this for its citizens. Other than that you cannot and should not legislate morality,, so only two of the 10 commandments, you shall not kill and you shall not steal should be legislated. But we should not prohibit every ungodly behaviour out there like the practice of satanism, homosexuality, hard drugs, transgender practices, prostitution, etc.
Perfectly Said
A book may not just be selling because the topic is beloved; I think in this case people are looking to find out more before forming an opinion. To answer the question where they stand on this, they first want to know what this is about, and then see if it is something they would subscribe to or not. Going on malevolent hearsay is not a good source.
Christian nationalism is not Christianity. Christians in China are more persecuted they didn't start Chinese Christian nationalism
Grace and Peace to you. I once was against Christian Nationalism. Now, I'm in favor of it, but I'm at odds with many of its proponents because of the syncretism of American patriotism, conservatism, the Republican Party and Christianity.
That fact alone means you were right the first time. The only Christian kingdom coming is the one established by Christ. Jesus said we would be persecuted and that the empire to come was the Antichrist’s. Now you know that the devil will deceive believers so why in the world would you ignore the red flags of syncretism when it’s obvious that trying to create a Christian nation is a result of fearing persecution and making the excuse that if we’re a nation we can reach people better (try using that excuse with St. Paul)?? If there’s a coming false Christianity, don’t you think it would be one that plays into a larger system like the Republican Party and promises worldly comfort and rejection of suffering for the gospel while claiming to do all this for God?
@@Window4503 Grace and Peace to you.
"Now you know that the devil will deceive believers so why in the world would you ignore the red flags of syncretism when it’s obvious that trying to create a Christian nation is a result of fearing persecution and making the excuse that if we’re a nation we can reach people better (try using that excuse with St. Paul)??"
I don't believe I'm ignoring the red flags. My political behavior remains unchanged. Only my rhetoric is different as a result of my change of opinion. I don't expect any significant good to come from political activism. I felt that way before I approved of Christian Nationalism, and I feel that way now.
" If there’s a coming false Christianity, don’t you think it would be one that plays into a larger system like the Republican Party and promises worldly comfort and rejection of suffering for the gospel while claiming to do all this for God?"
I pretty much think that's what's happening. In fact, I think the supposed Globalist takeover is a red herring. My understanding of Revelation 6 leads me to believe that world domination will come through war, not guile alone.
To approve of Christian Nationalism isn't to reject your hypothesis. My approval of Christian Nationalism is simply manifested in my belief that government legislation and policies should reflect Judeo-Christian values and the parts of the law of Moses, including 9 of the 10 commandments.
But again, I don't expect much from the current system because it's a part of the 4th beast kingdom of Daniel 2 and Daniel 7. It won't be reformed. Jesus will destroy it and replace it with his kingdom. Until then, we occupy . . . .
So, don't fret. You won't find me storming the capitol. I'm non-resistant. I don't even believe in self-defense (Matthew 5:39) . . . .
@@lark8356 E511 ministries has some interesting videos you might be interested in.🙏
Why are you in favor of Christian Nationalism?
@@purelifephotos Grace and Peace to you. I'm in favor of it because I'm in favor of laws that reflect biblical righteousness.
Where is God’s word on this
2 Corinthians 10:5-We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.
Uh...NO. "Christian" Nationalism is basically the antithesis of everything Christ taught and the way He lived His life. He NEVER in ANY way suggested that His disciples should have "dominion" over others, or that non-believers should be coerced into obeying His commandments. What He DID say was that His kingdom was"not of this world". He also said one of our priorities should be concern for the poor, the sick, and the marginalized, as well as loving our neighbor as ourselves....which these "Christian" Nationalists seem to pretty much ignore, concerning themselves instead with admiring the wealthy and judging others when they themselves are not without sin.
Is there any Biblical support for democracy?
My conclusions have settled into this:
In matters of:
Morality in the civil law sense vs morality in religious law sense.
I put it that way meaning that civil law protects us as citizens no matter each persons beliefs and even atheists.
To make any law that involves putting actions on one that may go against their beliefs by enforcing behaviors of another belief system, violates the conscience.
Jesus never violated the conscience. Our country was built on freedom of religion.
Jesus gave data and allowed each to decide.
Example: During the days of the blue laws in America, a Sunday rest law was put on the books. Because this violated the constitution… “ Congress make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting its free exercise.”
The Sunday blue law was challenged in violating this and resulted in halting a requirement of Sunday rest.
The combining of church and state, in history, resulted in persecution and tyranny. Christian nationalism would result in repeating history.
Jesus promoted freedom of choice by one’s own conscience.
We cannot force Christianity on anyone. True Christianity comes from a personal choice anc experience between the person and the Lord.
Civil laws are nit matters of conscience but in place for us to live in peace with it without a religious motive by the citizen.
The newer laws (non Christian based) are resulting in violating the religious freedoms. Example : alphabet group, suing a bakery for exercising their right to freedom of conscience and requiring them to participate in something that would violate their conscience. That is impossible for a true believer to do.
The moral law of God is covered in our civil
Laws that covers all people making it illegal to kill, steal, etc. going beyond these actions in creating laws crossed over into violating freedom of conscience even the freedom to be atheist.
Christian nationalism will cause overreach in spiritual matters by law. This is a violation nog God giving us freedom of conscience.
It will result in the atrocities of history repeating itself.
Read a history of the reformers, martyrdom and the ruling church killing God’s people and thinking the do God service.
[Jhn 16:2-3 KJV] 2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. 3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.
I’m kind of afraid to ask the question, because all three of you seemed so certain that this was a terrible idea, but why would it be wrong to vote for something that did make pagan temples and the like illegal? Wouldn’t that be something God would want?
@Sydney Bell I get that about the first amendment, but in a hypothetical world where we don't live in a place that already makes this an impossibility, biblically why would it be wrong to outlaw pagan temples?
@Sydney Bell Where in the Bible does it say anything close to freedom of religion is more important than dismantling pagan high places?
I grew up in America where freedom of religion has been integral to my understanding of ... life and justice, but I am trying to square that with the Bible and I'm having a hard time.
@@rebukey Let me know how you might take down the Mormon religion, which is clearly pagan in its teaching that God is an evolved man.
Neil, please show down when you talk. You can take a breath here and there so we can too..~~!!
Religious wars between Protestants and Catholics where...*checks notes*...Catholics fought Catholics, Protestants fought Protestants, Catholics and Protestants allied... The Myth of Religious Violence has been recommended and so far it's looking good. Blaming religion on the wars during the formation of centralized states is one of the major topics.
This sounds as if the NAR would get along very well with this thinking. What is your opinion, or am I totally off point?
I think Hitler would get along very well with this thinking 🤔
Ooooh.... No No No. NO! If you were to look into Pastor Doug Wilson of Christ Church in Moscow, ID, whose motto is "All of Christ for all of life" and who stood up to the pandemic mandates, you will see a cerebral form of Christian response to globalism, atheism, neo-communism, etc. that has NOTHING to do with the charismatic NAR movement where they call themselves Apostle and Prophet and have a prosperity gospel thing going on. The NAR might theoretically be drawn to Christian Nationalism sensing a common goal, but authors like Stephen Wolfe would NOT return the interest because they're not that sort of Christian, they're reformed. The NAR would also soon probably be disenchanted at the lack of mystification and pentecostalism that's just simply NOT employed or part of Christian Nationalism.
That’s spot on. That’s what a lot of their prophecies are about. It would not surprise me if they tried to make it happen once persecution increases and weak believers try to hold onto their worldly comforts.
This ethnic and race stuff that Neil is talking about midway through the video, SO CONCERNING! I’m a missionary in Japan married to a Japanese. We have people from all over the world in our church. We are FAMILY! We care for each other through all of life’s ups and downs. When my family here is bed ridden and dying I will be by their side caring for them as if they were my own blood mother/father, brother/sister. This division is NOT for the Bod of Christ!
Ya but don’t culture have the right to save there culture there way of life? I don’t see the bible advocating for total culture destruction the way you are advancing for.
My Bible says… “Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all. Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony. And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God. And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.”
Colossians 3:11-17
@@marssionary your using text out of context the verse is about salvation. Not about weather culture should be destroyed. I love Japanese culture i believe Japanese should have a right to be Japanese. I think your a horrible missionary if you want to force Japanese not to be Japanese.
@@marssionary you are the one bringing division into the church by forcing your way of life into other. I will defend the Japanese culture right to exist.
@@marssionary i think there is clearly fundamental racism that clouds your mind if think about cultural genocide the way you are talking about. I really hope the holy spirit convinces you.
No. My kingdom is not of this world
Just because it's not heaven doesn't mean we shouldn't fight for what's right.
God requires us to be light in darkness.
Vanderbilt hosp in Tennessee and Boston's children hospital are cutting the genitals off 15 year olds in their "gender clinics". We need to use the power of a Christian state to crush the chances of this continuing.
*Reformed Christian Nationalism: the case for why the reformation can create good states.
Is it correct that Neal shenvi attends JD Greear‘s church? I can’t imagine that’s true.
Makes sense he is woke just like JD
Yes, he does attend Summit (he confirms this on his Twitter bio). I agree, it’s very confusing given how Greear has given credence to CRT talking points and is responsible for the disastrous Resolution 9 at the 2019 SBC convention.
Yes, he does…at least at the last known info. This podcast is a train wreck. Unfortunate. Check out Jon Harris’ Conversations That Matter. Search for both Shenvi and Wolfe.
@@simplygrace9838He’s ALL in on CRT. Have you seen his convo with Jon @ Conversations That Matter?
@@melissamartin8322 Why is this podcast a train wreck?
"We hold these truths to be self-evident." (See Romans 1:19)
I'll say this. I have benefited greatly from Shenvi's ministry, especially related to CRT in the evangelical church. However, I have learned over the years to read the primary sources he reviews for myself so that I can come to my own conclusions and not wholly rely on his opinion (although I have mostly agreed with him.) I don't know if either Krista or Alisa have read Wolfe's book; I have. Shenvi's review gives a mostly negative slant and misses the overall spirit of Wolfe's work. If you are unfamiliar with this topic, I would suggest you read Wolfe's book for yourself. Also, watch the recent Founder's messages on CN from Voddie Baucham and Tom Ascol. The CRT/Woke crowd has made CN into a boogeyman by using it synonymously with whiteness/bigotry. It's important that we don't play into their game. I'm not completely defending Wolfe's view but trying to encourage people to avoid relying on others' opinion rather than seeking out the truth for themselves.
My thoughts as well! When people set out to discuss this topic without having read Wolfe's book, I immediately lower my expectations for the conversation, and especially with Krista who by her own admission is still learning or hasn't fully arrived at an opinion about this, or knows enough to form one.
I listened to Ascol and Baucham just last night speaking about CN on Founders Ministries on RUclips. Well worth the time.
In agreement with you as well. Gather all the information that's possible in order to have complete picture of the issue. The CN term is being used as a tactic to eventually silence Christians on many issues for fear of being labeled as a CN.
Agree 100%. The progressives are using CN as a derogatory term. But that should not deter us. We should expect them to do that when we try to live out God's word outside the 4 walls of the church into the culture and politics
I'm not going to let progressives keep me from using certain phrases. They don't get a monopoly on language. That just makes it important to carefully define what we mean.
To me, it's simple; look at the term itself: Christian nation-alism is the belief that America is a Christian nation, and any beliefs that stem from that.
That's a falsehood that should concern the church, not just progressives.
This political ruler would be a Protestant Pope who speaks encyclicals in excatgedra. It would truly be tge emd if a secular democracy. Which is all we have ever had. Prince's are not elected.
I'm not reformed, but I'll choose Christian Nationalism over classical liberalism
Interesting, I'm a Christian who has a lot of problems with the new "liberal" left. They have made me more conservative. However, recently, I realized I am more classically liberal. I want the government to leave us alone and allow us to follow our conscience and to worship as we choose. That is what classical liberalism means to me. However Christian Nationalism (which I don't think will ever happen in USA) seems like we are forcing people into outward behavior that aligns with our value. The problem with that is, where do you stop? Which Christians get to be in charge. With classical liberalism, we get to be free to serve God according to our conscience. But maybe I don't understand the definitions fully
@@rebeccaiwarere7202 classic liberalism is just progressive on slow motion. Look at gay marriage classic liberalism supports it 10 years they did not.
@David Rybikov yes David is right. Classical liberalism is one of the reasons why we have drag queen story hour and other bad fruits. We will have a national religion of some kind. We have to choose what that religion is going to be. As a Christian, I want a Christian nation
@nikao2008 however, there are classical liberals who don't believe in drag queen story hour because it harms kids. The idea of the government telling me how to worship terrifies me personally. If I don't agree with the doctrine of the state, I am under judgement. Eeek. I'll take gay marriage. Appreciate the discussion:)
You don’t want either. Guess who’s on the nationalist train? NAR false prophets. Just wait for Christ. Humans suck at governing as long as they’re fallen.
1 John 2:15! So do not try to become.
Christian nationalism divides the sheep from the goats
A: yes
No. It’s not. Christ never commanded it. Trying to create a Christian nation before he returns is a rejection of the suffering we’re called to and plays right into the devil’s hands. You think a Christian nation will be spiritually safe? Jesus himself warns of false Christs and false teachers. What better way to pull that off than by scaring Christians with increased secular wickedness so that they compromise try to create a Christian utopia, which will likely become the Harlot? You were told to GO and make disciples of all nations, not stay and make a Christian nation. If Christ wanted that, he wouldn’t have scattered the early believers when they could have stayed and grown into a kingdom like Christian nationalists want.
@@Window4503 there's a difference between trying to build an earthly utopia, and not letting literal satanists infiltrate your land and legislative system, you quack.
The entire Bible is a story of peoples and nations.
To any of the panelists, how widespread is this general catigory of christian nationalists and what percentage is actual racists?
This conversation is very hard to follow…Israel is still in a covenant with God. It is irrevocable….Our job as believers is to share the gospel, serve others. And to vote to keep our nation free and as godly as possible. End of story.
Old Testament Judaism (Matthew 5:43; Hebrews 7:11) is not New Testament Christianity (Matthew 5:44; Hebrews 7:12). Oy!
Romans 7:7-13; Matthew 23:27-28; Galatians 3 - Exegesis
2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the is taken away in Christ. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.
Shenvi is as lukewarm as they get
Isn't Southern Evangelical Seminary the very place that fired the evangelical historian Mike Licona for his moderate biblical studies work?
Yup southern has become very woke in recent years. Makes you think why alice goes there
Hope Wolfe doesn’t have political aspirations…
Its not biblical at all
Nationalism of the Old Testament:
1 Samuel 15:3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.
LOL
Its so great that you can take a scripture out of context. To make some really week form of argument, yawn
Based
@@claudiabailey5302 Fundamentalist Dictionary:
Taken out of Context: (n): Read directly from the text.
LOL
sorry but you are making a very weak argument. the first question is why God tells Israel to totally destroy them. secondly, who are the Amalekites something which you care nothing about? you act and sound like God had nothing better to do than just destroy a nation that, in fact, was related to Israel. it's s like you just read 1 Samuel 15 and decided to build a very bad argument around it. And from that standpoint sorry it's weak you need to learn some biblical history. Context is key and also you seem to be assuming that I am fundamentalist and agree with the argument.
@@claudiabailey5302 Your personal god played the CONVERT-OR-DIE card to all these tribes (countries:)
Amalekites (1 Samuel 15:3) Midianites (Numbers 31:15-18) Jabesh-Gilead (Judges 21:10-11) Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites (Deuteronomy 20:16-18)
"who are the Amalekites something which you care nothing about"
Your ALL-POWERFUL god just had no other way than to kill men and women, children and infants. YOU don't care about GENOCIDES when it is your personal god ordering it.