Taoism - The Most Misunderstood Philosophy in the West - Hundred Schools of Thought
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- Опубликовано: 22 май 2020
- From “Tao of Pooh” to “The Tao of Muhammad Ali” there seems to be no end to these gentrified takes on Taoism in the West. What these writers forgot or refuse to tell you is that Taoism, had always been a religious philosophy since its conception.
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📚SOURCES:
Huang Kejian, 2010, From Destiny to Dao: A Survey of Pre-Qin Philosophy in China
Hong Yuan, 2018, The Sinitic Civilization Book II
Hansen, Chad, Spring 2020 Edition, The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy Edward N. Zalta (ed.), "Daoism"
Fabrizio Pregadio, The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, “Religious Daoism”.
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I read the Dao de Ching (in English) as an undergrad and it profoundly influenced the way I thought in ways I cannot explain. I read a translation of Chuang Tze later in life and it made more sense, but there was never anything in there to follow or accept. The intent of these texts is to provoke thought rather than to inform or instruct. They do a good job at that.
Indeed to instruct how to think instead of what to think.
Wait provoke thought. So the secret is thinking differently? Which can't be explained easily correct?
Surely, it must aim beyond the thinking aspect of mind? I’m a practitioner of the Buddha Dharma but I always thought that Tao was a profound path too. But if it only concerns itself with the thinking mind how can it be a means of transcendence then? There must be more to it than that, no?
@@freetibet1000 transcendence of what? thought is part of all but it is not all. there is everything possible to reality. what humans write about the way of all can only be from localized experience of relational expressions.
“The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.
The name that can be named is not the eternal name.
The nameless is the beginning of heaven and earth.
The named is the mother of ten thousand things.
”
@@improvetheworldnow Absolutely right. The thinking aspect of mind is of course part of our total experience. And it becomes, essential in communication with others. No doubt about that.
But the mind that is seeking insights beyond the duality of perception needs to explore the deeper levels of being that cannot be put into words. Through a progressively deeper experience in meditation we come to have a direct experience of that which cannot me named. When that have become a permanent state we can call that transcendence, if we like. But it is said to be like having completely exhausted all complexities of the mind and we remain in utter simplicity without any conceptual thoughts (about it) arise again.
I love how passive aggressive comments often begin with “I love how...” 😇
😆
I see what you did there..
Or people who they know everything.You know what where there's people there's misunderstanding and supination.People also hide behind the way that can be told is not the way so that they can appear superior and talk you down.I have known many Chinese Taoists and the point of view is as variable as the people themselves.Lao Tzu's Tao te ching is meant to show us the way,not be aloof and agrandise ourselves. People who do so should be hissed off stage.
Oops I meant supistition not supination.
Brilliant
There is the Tao. Once we add the "ism," that's where the trouble starts.
Yes, and I would add that the same is true for the label “Buddhism” too. Somehow these wisdom-based ways of living have been converted into systematic religions in the eyes of ignorant people. Any true practitioner knows how limited that view is.
The statement can also be applied to Shinto but that is the joy of the use of ism as I have heard in Japan "Taoto."
Not necessarily. It depends on your own awareness. I am an angry person. I say I embrace Taoism because I know myself and know that I don't always follow the Tao. I make mistakes. But I don't stop trying. I embrace Taoism BECAUSE of my angry nature, because nothing else has worked. I say that because I know I would by lying if I said I follow the Tao. Sometimes I do. Sometimes I fail to do so. I don't even call myself a Taoist because I know I sometimes fail and cannot make the claim that I am always following the Tao.
_an -ism be like a jizz'm_
that I can inflict on others while sparing myself the embarrassment or physical come-down
The tao that can be told is not the eternal tao.
A river looks different to everyone depending where they stand, but it is always water simply moving as it must.
Now that was what I would consider Daoist wisdom! Well said.
@@Dragon_prince90 I don't know you well enough to answer that.
@@MercenaryMuse oh, it's completely fine
@@MercenaryMuse have a lovely day/night
It reminds me a lot of existentialism but without the anguish of constant self-awareness.
Good thought
Reminds of a day long ago when my friend I were reading some verses aloud from the TTJ.
He was flabbergasted that his collegiate studies in Existentialism had set him up to feel like he had acquired (paraphrasing his words for family-friendliness) 'a mental constipation'.
yep
i always thought of it as nihilism without the depression lol
I came across Taoism in the most depressive phase of my life, the first time I read a verse something just clicked in me and the world didn't seem as cold as before. Truly one of the most profound 'book' one can get, it has something for everyone and it's wisdom can guide many a lost soul.
Thank you for this. My experience with Taoism and Western distortions started in 8th grade. We were supposed to create a 'community' on an island using the assigned elements, one of which was the people of the island were Taoists. Everyone got low grades and the teacher hammered our work because he said, "Taoists" don't like to be around other people." As things go, it wasn't a big deal and I barely would've remembered it had I not traveled extensively in China and visited several Taoist Temples. I think the teacher got his skewed understanding of Taoism from their respect for nature and the wilderness. I also love the wilderness and spent a lot of time there usually alone. I don't claim to be an expert on Taoism, but the afternoon my son and I spent at a festival in a Taoist temple in Beijing was unforgettable. Thousands of people, everyone having a great time, the displays of the 'bureaucracies' of Hell, food, kids wearing costumes... About the only thing I was sure of was there is no Conservative Orthodox Taoism. I've also read accounts of frustrated Western priests and ministers and Chinese Christians. What frustrates them is that a lot of these people will attend church on Sunday and worship Jesus, but on Wednesdays they'll go to the Buddhist Temple, and I'm sure if there's a festival at the Taoist temple they'll attend. Kind of hard to have a religious war if everyone is practicing everything. I'm an atheist, but I love old churches and temples of all sorts. I always donate at the laughing Buddha statue because we shouldn't take ourselves too seriously.
As a Chinese person, yeah that's pretty much how we approach religion. To us, religion isn't as much about what we believe, but rather about improving our lives by doing something that will have Heaven or some other supernatural entity help us. Buddhism, chinese folk beliefs, Daoism, even Confucianist principles aren't necessarily contradictory, and I think that's also partially why Christianity was so disruptive to China when it first started spreading. Unlike the popular religions and beliefs, Christianity draws a strict line between what is "true" and what is "false" in terms of religion and faith.
Thanks for sharing.
100% THIS.
What a terrific experience.
If “Taoists don’t like to be with other people, why were there large Taoist monasteries? Makes no sense. There are cultures in which Christianity co-exists with other religions, but it’s not officially approved.
I like that idea that western interpretations of Taoism are a continuation of following the "flow"
but I'd also really like to learn more how Taoism and Buddhism interacted with each other when Buddhism was first introduced in east Asia
Buddhists and Daoists share a similar concept of "void," emptiness that begets all structure. Some Buddhists and Daoists put their ideas together to form the Chen school of Buddhism, which eventually found its way to Japan and became the Zen Buddhism that we know today.
i'm not sure how historically accurate it is, but Alan Watts' "Way of Zen" deals with this topic in an engaging & readable fashion (Taoism's influence on Buddhism in China giving rise to Chan being his basic hypothesis), so it might be a good introduction.
you can say their philosophy was very much similar. When Indian translators translated Buddhist scripture into Chinese, they used a lot of Daoist terminology. Also, during the Jin Dynasty(when Buddhism started to gain real popularity) Daoists and Buddhist monks would hang out together and talk about their philosophies.
On the other hand, some Han nationalists disliked the fact that a religion from India was gaining a great influence, they made Daoism into a "systematic religion" if you will.
I believe Daoism would not become a structured religious practice with Temples, rituals, deities to worship and whatnot if not for a need to combat Buddhism with a "local" religion
A great, but very, VERY broad question, even in academics. But I can offer a little of my knowledge.
Buddhism was already going through a transitional phase of doctrine/philosophy from Theravada to Mahayana just before it began to spread through China in the late 1st century! The place to start to answer your question[ is in the Indian Mahayana Buddhist missionaries that went to China to translate & teach Mahayana concepts. They would frequently compare and contrast them with Daoist teachings to get the message across to the Chinese population.
It did actually result in Daoist and Buddhist teachings often getting mistaken for one another, but also intermingling and advancing the interpretations of Buddhism in many different, new and wonderful ways. Daoism experiences some influence, but it was already present in China along with Confucianism as a dominant philosophy, so didn't change in the ways Buddhist teachings did. (Something I love about Buddhist teachings is how it allows itself to change, be debated, challenged, and reinterpreted)
All this dialogue would eventually contribute in some way to a lot of the schools around today such as Zen (Came from Chan Buddhism in China). So the impacts of Daoism and Chinese culture on Buddhist thought are crazy and endless haha.
Fortunately, taoist schools are not generally as violently dogmatic as western ideologies, but they have the same epistemological issues due to time and space, ie. evolution over distances that were much greater before the airplane and automobile. Within many Asian schools there is a formalized understanding of "transmission" which is a spiritualized belief around the passing down of experience from a master to a disciple, performed as ritual, which imparts the idea that the ideals of the original masters have been distilled and improved over time. But this would not necessarily prevent two neighboring communities from evolving different ideas based on schisms between the communities.
It strikes me as fitting and expected that Taoism could never really be codified or pinned down. :-)
Huh. Good point.
Yup, that goes without saying, ha ha! In silence we experience everything. With a mind in bla bla mood we’re blind. Silence is the ground of natural space, it is the path of practice and it is the fruition of non-effort. (So many words to say nothing, sorry)!
Like nailing a river to the earth.
The tao that can be told is not the eternal tao.
As difficult as pinning down water
“The name that can be named is not the eternal name. The nameless is the beginning of heaven and earth. The named is the mother of ten thousand things.”
-Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching
Indeed.
Though I don’t comprehend much of Lao Tzu’s wisdom,in Chinese original version,as I know,the subjects of this excerpt are perhaps ‘existence’ and ‘none’ if translated in English,as we cut the sentence after the first word,I.e.有，名为万物之母(The existence is called as the mother of the universe),while this translation cuts at the second word,I.e.有名，为万物之母(The named is the mother of ten thousand thing).Besides,pursuant to such comprehension,many Chinese scholars are interested at the comparison with the concept ‘Nichts’ in Heidegger.Nevertheless,maybe this English translation is another way to explain and enlightenment,and here is where the Hermeneutics works.
Words and numbers have their limitations. The Universe is inexplicable.
Seth wrote many books from his vantage point of another dimension. He called existence ALL THAT IS. Literally, WE are ALL THAT IS. I would name us all Eternal.
I remember a guy on BBC radio - half Irish, half Nigerian. The Irish relatives would say “You must cut your coat according to your cloth" (= you can't have that, it's too expensive). The Nigerian relatives would say "Water is everyone's friend" (= try to get on with people), which almost a Taoist saying.
Very well done. You did a surprisingly good job on representing a very close to accurate view of Taoism. I'm really impressed, because as you correctly mention, most people have no idea what they are talking about when they mention this religion. As a scholar of religion, and someone who studied very closely under an expert in Taoism, I give you props.
The dao that can be named is not the eternal dao.
That's why the whole idea is useless. The purpose of all knowledge, wisdom, and understanding is actionable certainty. Leaving things as they are is not even potentially a good idea because things are not already sufficient.
@@havenbastion It's not about totally leaving things, but to avoid forcing anything. If you want to change something, know your current situation and your strengths which you can use. Don't do it anytime, but in the right time. Use your wits, not your force. Doing things gently and slowly usually works better than pushing and forcing in panic or with aggression.
Want an example? Take socialism in Russia which was introsuced by force and bloody revolution. Would you like to live in Russia? Then think about socialism in Sweden, which is based on similar ideas, but introduced gently and in the right time. Would you like to live in Sweden?
the typical wrong interpretation. lol. same as the inactivity explaination.
if that is the case there is no point for him to write his book or emphasize his tao.
the truth is, the daodejing texts we see nowadays is the edited version.
so far there are 3 other ancient daodejing texts unearthed btw 1970s - 1990s.
all are rather complete and complement each other, yet somewhat different from current.
That saying reminds me of the Judaic idea that God's true name cannot be spoken or written.
@@kvannestorbjorn1316 i would have totally liked to live in russia
It should be noted that Buddhism's growing popularity in China played a large role for the development of Taoism into an organized religion. Emperor Taiwu of Northern Wei (5th century) even persecuted Buddhists in the name of Taoism. That's why Taoists appear as antagonists in "The Journey to the West". It surely is fascinating how two initially competing religions ended up influencing each other.
None of them were "religion" in your sense.
Your wrong. Before Buddhism entered in China, Taoism was already there, looks like you doesn't know anything about Chinese history, culture
@@masterkoi29 I have no idea of if they are correct or not, but you seem to be misinterpreting what they are saying.
They are not saying Buddhism predates Taoism in China. They are saying that Taoism became more formalized as Buddhism started spread into China. So they are saying Taoism was already in China, but not in as official of a capacity.
Again I don't know if they are correct, but I wanted to clear up the potential misunderstanding.
@@ben76326 The original post is basically accurate. The persecution of Buddhists IS an interesting issue, and it should be noted that taoism holds many potentials, including that of evil practices, practitioners or leaders, as does Buddhism or any other group. This is an especially worrisome issue to me personally, as a student of cults. People from either the east or west often fail to acknowledge this when crossing over to new schools of thought. What a group teaches and what they practice can be entirely different things. Sometimes what they teach can be evil, as well, couched in good but ignorant intentions or a deep fundamental misunderstanding of the laws of nature, humanity and the universe.
NB Religious Daoism was created by an emperor to thwart Real Daoism as he could not control Daoists and was worried it would spread. see Zhuang Zi 's story about the gilt turtle.
Sounds like an emperor fighting against expansion of anything that makes people peaceful and not easy to manipulate.
I've been saying this for years, Western philosophical daoism is simply another movement of daoism and that's fine! The movement that has emerged from simple Western readings of the Dao de Jing and Laozi has been so beneficial for my life. And, when I want to, I can go read stories about legendary fantastical daoist immortals too without feeling any 'religious' connection.
i agry
Love the simplicity and practice of wu wei, Zen Buddhism and Lao zu writings combined. My life is so peaceful now. Thank you
I think what really creates that difference is that here in America, there are really no temples I can go to, I have no way of directly observing or participating in religious practices. Instead I am left with the same books in several different translations. Essentially, in order to practice Taoism in any way, I have to create my own sect based on my own interpretations that are always built on what is most important to me, which as a philosopher is the philosophy of it.
I love how flexible Taoism is just like how the universe and the earth is ever changing!
Like water
re-read it... their constant. They maybe in motion but they are not changing. Truth/virtue/Tao does not change, that which goes against the Tao can not endure.
The "Force" that never changes is the "Cause" of all change. ("Effect")
The "Force" that never changes is the "Cause" of all change. ("Effect")
The "Force" that never changes is the "Cause" of all change. ("Effect")
As a schoolboy, I just happen to run across a translation of the Dao De Ching. I was very impressed, and since then consider it one of the most influental books of my life, right next to "Metamorphoses" by Ovid. That´s basically all I have to say on Taoism. It just figures.
This is one of those moments when when you think you understand it, you actually don't.
How relieving it is to find people like myself who don’t understand it haha
That's the beauty of the Dao - it's so complicated that no person can fully understand it… only flow with it
@@thechronicler9556...or against it.
Or (and) oscillate between the two. (among a myriad of other possibilities)
I’d been a Christian (nondenom) my whole life until I was on my own. I walked away from organized religion and frantically tied to fill my God sized hole until I realized I only needed to fill it with nothing. I hade a hole as long as I created the hole.
When I first discovered Taoism I was hoping for a pantheon of gods to protect me from what is and what was to come. I found none, none worth my worship and none that could save me.
I think it is so awesome that not ever could man speak of the way because speaking of the way makes it not the way. The way is without thought it is acted upon. When we fight the way that is how we feel the way.
I’ve long considered the idea that when we do something or don’t do something. When we think something or don’t think something. When we smile instead of frown or cry when we are hurt, those actions and decisions impact the world like a leaf falling into a puddle. The water shifts and moves. That is how we interact with the world. So do our actions, thoughts, worries and fears.
I don’t believe in “good” and “evil.” Not for sake of hedonism, but because I see life as either you’re choosing a decision that promotes a long and healthy life or you’re choosing one that promotes a short and harmful life.
As organisms made of organs, tissues and cell we seek to procreate and make more of us. That is why we value living for a long time. We shouldn’t fight to live a long time but we shouldn’t make decisions that would harm us from living a long time either. Example: Even in the most justified ways, I believe a human should never kill another human. I think this action will lead to a shorter and more harmful life for the self as opposed to someone who has never killed someone. Another example: Telling lies can lead to a short and harmful life. Not every lie. Not the first one. But it could be the next lie that leads to your own destruction. Lies lead to pain and suffering whereas truth will lead to healthier longer lives more often statistically speaking when compared to lying.
Life is made up of two options, the one that will promote a long and healthy life and one that will prevent a long and healthy life.
I don’t know how closely Taoism speaks to evolution by natural selection and how much I’m tying in things that shouldn’t be tied in but according to the history, it seems as though not a single person has been able to formulate Taoism in its truest form because again… Taoism cannot be taught but only understood.
Also, I’m making a new sect: Biological Taoism.
20 minutes to read, 20 lifetimes to understand. The way is unseen, even in this video.
Ah, twenty lifetimes to understand; one lifetime to realise that understanding is neither possible nor necessary. Comprehension is a possibility.
The Tao may also be appreciated in less than the blink of an eye :)
thank your the time and effort you’ve put into your videos
How does this channel only have 20k subscribers? It should have millions. Top notch research and production on the history of the Far East in English. This is genuinely fresh content in a platform that is now drowning in channels dedicated to western history and philosophy.
AGREE
I love your channel! The names are also read in proper Chinese, which is a great change of pace. I think if you create subtitles, it'll be even better!
The names might be read in proper Chinese, but he still pronounces Taoism with a "T" sound, instead of "Daoism".
That 太平道 really have the idea of
“if you want peace, prepare for war”
A great video - lots of stuff there I was not aware of. Thanks for sharing!
1:12 felt like it reset my brain then at 1:17 when you said "Dao De Jing" I got full body goosebumps 😳 and I recently watched, Big trouble in little china, it's comically directed but I believe it was meant for me to see that movie, cause I saw real life events all that week that correlate directly with what you explained in your vid. I've always lived a monk lifestyle even as a kid with no teacher or books that mentioned these things, I've always been at one with nature and don't like when people fight as a kid I would find peace between my family members fighting. I have been a mediator my whole life and now I'm getting my qi and gifts coming in waves, I can speak healing and it happens, I can predict things happening, I've witnessed paranormal events many times over the years. I believe I found my religion where I belong thanks brother, peace be with you.
2:04 the logician and the small talk schools should be a video I’d like to watch.
Love the video! It's nice to hear Chinese tones in an English video.
Thank you for sharing your knowledge and to be so willing to ask for others thoughts
Thanks for the great video homie!
TLDR: It's a history lesson, not an explanation of Taoism
It is an explanation based on Chinese perspective and understanding of Tao history using modern knowledge simplified to explain it for western or english speaking audience.
@@weiskl887 actually no, this is a history lesson and not the actual understanding of taoist teachings. Many Chinese may not know jack of Taoism but they at least can differentiate Taoist religion(道教) and Taoist school of thought(道家), because they literally written differently. The dude that makes this video can't even differentiate those two.
thanks for the warning
@@limitlesssky3050 he did preemptively give rebuttal to you on 3:18. Care to give further rebuttal?
Yes, well, the Tao that can be explained is not the true Tao.
For me, the attraction of the Tao de Ching is how it is echoed in various other belief systems around the world - awareness of the Great Spirit by native Americans, the Inner Light of the Quakers, the Dadirri of Indigenous Australians, even the growing awareness of the connectedness of all things by present-day ecologists. That such diverse groups have identified such consistent principles gives credibility.
Is it echoed by these other teachings or is it just vague enough to be applied to anything you like?
"the growing awareness of the connectedness of all things"
I've never understood what people mean by this.
How do we know we are born/raised with an assumption of 'divisions of reality' rather than a sense of unity?
Or from another angle : did anyone ever claim that the word 'universe' was wrong, or needed improving upon?
This reminds me of being 4 or 5 yrs of age and having a brief, comical notion: I am looking at maps, wondering if the words and borders are also written upon on the earth's landscape for hundreds of miles, just as they are printed on the map-paper :)
@@shaft9000, I think I see where you're coming from. Here's the way I see it: When we are born we have an undifferentiated existence - all stimuli and objects are just blurred together. You could call this a unified view, but it's not really a 'view' in the sense that it's a considered understanding.
Healthy brain development depends on a gradually more complex differentiation process - we begin to discriminate between 'me' and the rest of the world; we identify a particular face as 'mama'; we come to know the difference between the spoon and the food that sits on it; we learn that objects and actions are associated with sounds people make with their mouths. Our brain development depends on our ability to categorise and define things. To use your example, we also need to differentiate between representations of the real (eg, a coastline on a map) and the conceptual (eg, a borderline on a map).
As our understanding becomes more sophisticated, however, we learn about the relationships between things. An apple is not just a ball of food that appears in the kitchen, it comes from a flower that grows on a tree that was planted from a seed that was found in another apple. And the apple contains within it reconstituted elements of dirt, sunshine and water. In a very real sense, when we bite into an apple we are eating sunshine. We are developing a more unified view of the world - a sense that everything is connected.
But our sense of this unity - these links, relationships and cycles - would be impossible without us first understanding things as separate entities.
For me, Taoism suggests that it's important to avoid extremes and to understand that what sometimes appears like opposing principles (eg, unity and differentiation) are actually complementary - understanding one side of the equation helps us to understand the other side better.
Excellent video essay. Congratulations on this achievement.
Refreshing to hear somebody else finally link in our ism and Taoism. As a long time, Dallas, I’ve always loved that. The two are so synergistic basically saying the same thing, but I never hear it referenced
i really wish there were more information about yang zhu's egoism branch of taoism most of it was destroyed by confucians, but it really makes it clear that the concept of daoism is not a consise concent but uniqueness to each individual, and values the individual above all else,
I like the Chinese tradition of people withdrawing from active life to contemplate nature and live simply. This could be what is known as philosophical Taoism. You could say that religious and philosophical Taoism are like its yin and its yang. Many people in China would not have practiced religious taoism, but would have been profoundly influenced by its spiritual values. The Tao flows as you say, and it is now deeply affecting the West too, as is Buddhism. Can its manifestation in the west be considered Taoism? In some ways I think it can: people who read and reflect on the texts, some who even go so far as to learn classical Chinese to be be able to read those texts in the original, others who practice different arts: be that chi gong, calligraphy, gardening, the way of tea, or other practices, as a form of meditation to cultivate the way. This is Taoism too.
Another thing is its commercialisation in the capitalist West, and whether capitalism is compatible with Taoism.
Cool video, thanks for making it! ❤️
I enjoyed the video and even learned a little thank you for the experience!
Honestly the Taoist sorcery canon is so cool.
For my practice, Taoism is very much an active, doing thing. The readings are not as important as good instruction from a lineage holder, this is very important. Also this is needed because the texts happen on 3 different levels: what they say, what they mean and then how to use them. The Taoists I have met and trained with are warm, welcoming and generous people, highly trained and educated. Good entry points are the practices of Tai Chi, Qigong and Baguazhang, Taoism is one of the great world treasures. Diligent practice will result in rapid progress, peak health, mental clarity and spiritual development. Also, there is a branch of monastic Taoism from the Kunlun mountains that is over 4,000 years old. Western popular Taoism is not evil but may be a good starting point to begin deeper study.
Excellent insights. Thank you.
So glad I came upon this, thank you so much.
Amazing lesson. Nice to know you.
I am Singaporean but my ancestors were from Hainan
I've been listening to Alan Watts recently and eastern ideas have become interesting to me greatly! I'm not religious but having had lived in a evangelical Christian environment growing up I was ignorant on much of this. Wonderful video!
I enjoy gnosticism and taoism..
For me Taoism is all about the sense of peace that floods through me when i listen to words that describe a flow that i can see and understand atleast in my own way. It spoke to me and i am thankful!
It appears to me you do understand. When you speak of FLOW, I think that has everything to do with Tao. You have found "La prueba con corazon." Let's hope others learn of what you have experienced.
Be kind, be understanding, be patient, and love nature. If you can do that then you are where you should be. And of you're not there yet, don't stress. Be patient with yourself for you are learning. The way is patient. The way already flows through you.
I don't make my life hard, I go with the thoughts which are mine, I experience a lovely feeling, when I achieve, "In the groove" operation, in my existence. I can relax when I so desire to. Peace be unto you.
It all depends on the attitude you take when you approach it. There is an American author named William Saso who spent his 20's in Taiwan slowly winning the respect of a powerful Taoist to become his student. I think if you are a Western student of Taoism, like I consider myself to be, its very important to read about experiences such as his. It lets you see what the process of learning Taoism has been like in its native culture for millennia, but from the perspective of a Westerner, and the challenges they experienced along the way. I dont know if its appropriate for me personally to involve spells, talismans and potions rooted in Chinese Culture in my Taoist practices, but if I didnt understand how that stuff fits into the larger picture I'd be cheating myself out of some important dimensions of cultivation.
William Saso's teaching is Taoist religion ( 道教) and the philosoply is Taoist school of thought (道家), two different things. Anyway why should you care about what is appropriate or inappropriate, this is Taoism goddamnit, it is the philosophy of not conforming to social norms. Appropriate and not appropriate is confucian thinking. Zhuang Zhi, the second Taoist sage, danced happily on the day of his wife's death, Lao Tzu rode on a bull instead of horse, do you think they gave a shit about what is appropriate?
Toism seems to me to be a no superfluous fluff version of Hinduism and to a degree, Buddhism. How to purify your soul, go with the universal flow, and go easy on govern ship. Setting examples and allowing good people to be good people and then step back while they do good things.
As Alan Watts said - 'Buddhism is Hinduism repackaged for export'
@@jonn7291 All religions nest the same thing for a different people. What is inside of Buddhism and Hinduism is the same as what is inside of Taoism, Sufism, Judaism, New age, et al. It's just nested in different ways, for different cultures and different times. And the carrier shell, the outer story, is for the uninitiated masses to find appeal in carrying it. Abrahamic traditions are the current epitome of this.
People who see those various teachings as different, don't understand the insides of any of them. They just carry the box. They don't see inside it.
Some traditions just add tons of fluff and others keep it simple. Some embed it in flowers and some say it straight up.
@@jonn7291 Hinduism is loaded with deities, Buddhism had no god or gods.
What a very intereesing piece. Thankyou.
V interesting + informative, thabk you 🙏 I am an American who has studied + meditated on the Tao te Ching for many years. The wisdom it offers is timeless + placeless, no matter how you label it ❤
Philosophical Taoism can stand a lone. If the earliest text Dao De Ching is only a philosophical text, the ladder text cannot supersede it.
It’s not a requirement to tie religion to Taoism, and it almost never works out when they try to, because it doesn’t add any value to it.Religion is added later on for political means imo.
Let's not call it "Western" Taoism. A lot of Chinese also study the Tao Te Ching, Zhuang Zhi, and other works without really believing in the myths. I am almost certain many many Chinese scholars throughout history also focus more on the philosophical aspects rather than the religious ones.
They just didn't see that as that different since the lines between "philosophy" and "religion" wasn't clear.
There are also Daoists that were more like alchemist that invented gunpowder and other cool shit, those that focus on "Internal Alchemy" and more meditative practices.. those that worship various Gods and fulfill the roles of priest and monks for the population...
All religions are philosophy but not all philosophies are religion.The only philosophies that stop us doing certain things and inject fear inside our mind are considered religion.
Western or Eastern is not the point. If there is argument in any thing that we agree is the truth deep within us, simply know we are going against the flow.
May be going against the flow is the real flow at certain times. I don't know !!
@@truckershortsmore5063 The realms of humanity, nature and the cosmos may conflict at times but all are inextricably connected. You know more than you think.
I love your videos! Keep on ! :)
Excellent presentation
I'm new to Taoism but I have observed certain westerners attempting to use the philosophy to add a spiritual gloss to their own "new age" type mindset. I've encountered at least two editions of the Tao Te Jing that contained "commentaries" that often appeared to contradict or talk over the passage they were supposed to be elaborating on, all seemingly for the sake of validating the author's own typically liberal/relativistic opinion. I eventually purchased a copy that contained just a translation of the original text, and I find this a far more enlightening read.
Was light mentioned? I follow physics, the one that says "magically bursting forth are quarks spinning billions of times a second as 3 points of light forming protons and neutrons". These words come from the book THE QUANTUM WORLD written by the physicist Kenneth Ford. What YOU call new age is actually quantum physics which has always been here. AND, physics supersedes anything written about the Tao. There are oligarchs all over this world that want to keep us all stupid. The CIA is still in the habit of saying "conspiracy theory" to hide themselves or words like "spiritual gloss".
New age "gurus" really like their bastardized East Asian philosophies and religions. The "funniest" part is how they are unironically mixing and matching them without much rhyme or reason, like using the Dao to realign your meridians so that your chakras can reach Nirvana. Oh, and what a coincidence, they just happen to have a magical crystal that can help with that for the low price of 49.99!
@@Horvath_Gabor My sentence comes out of the book THE QUANTUM WORLD written by the physicist Kenneth Ford.
I think that it is YOUR words that are bastardized as they judge others for their beliefs and comments. You have mixed and matched YOUR words without rhyme or reason as if your tongue follows some kind of facts not in evidence. Sounds like your comment is about judging capitalism which is super funny because they are oligarchs making the most money as they sell everything to the highest bidder, including the fact that death is a ponzi scheme and so is covid which I am 100% sure YOU believe in.
YOU know nothing about quantum physics which says we are all eternal light holograms. The best book to read about that is $22 on amazon, just in case you actually want to read something.
@@pureenergy4578 Holy crap. Please tell me you're a Poe, or you're seriously going to dent my already battered faith in the human intellect.
@@Horvath_Gabor Get over it. We are NOT human. We are electrical energy fields proven by those 7 billion billion billion atoms we all consist of. We consist of electrical energy fields that MUST be built. We are constantly being created. Can't you see how complicated we all are?
I (American) study under a Taoist master (also American) who learned from many different masters across Asia and, I believe, one from Russia. He is very calm, humorous, and insightful.
He teaches me under these guidelines- "These things worked for me, and I think they will work for you, but I want you to test everything I tell you to see if it is true for you." and "If it will not help you in your every day life, we won't worry about it."
I'd like to eventually become ordained, I think, but for now, it suits me quite well. Qigong, basic meditations, breathing and moving practices, and paying attention to myself get me through life with a fair degree of happiness and practicality.
His friend, another American Taoist master, is a loud-mouthed, strongly opinionated, polarizing individual. Taoism takes many forms...at least that's one of the lessons I've taken away from it.
How/Where did you connect with your current teacher?
Thank you for this fascinating video!
Peace. ☝️😎
I love your China timeline graphic. Can we get it anywhere as a pdf? JPEG? Thank you. Great to have found your channel
Bruce Lee has expressed it best when he said, "Be like the water. When water is pour into a pot, it becomes the pot, when it is pour into the cup, it becomes the cup"...Not only water nourishes all things, without trying to...but it takes the shape and becomes you....
I'd be cautious about that. As the human race fractionalizes everyone becomes more susceptible, one at a time, to being over-taken by an otherly-dimensional force, or even being left behind.
Is anyone questioning whether the speaker is actually Chinese?
@@andrewfrankovic6821 Yes, several people have questioned that and what difference does it make. Do I have to be German to talk about Kant?
@@farshimelt Well I hope you wouldn't pretend to be German to sound like an expert. iT takes so little to put up a good false front on video and so many speakers seem like such professional speakers I get ever more suspicious.
To say that people could not understand or misunderstand Tao is actually an overstatement, if you only have references from Eastern source, lack of natural and humanistic point of view and high tendency to conform to social norms and arbitrary authority. The main sources of Taoism philosophy comes from Laotze and Chuangtze, which is a form of natural, humanist and nonconformist philosophies.
after i learned about humanistic phsychology, tao made better sense to me. agree with your assessment.
The "source" is an ideal that certainly stimulates great creativity. I think the admonition against erudite ontology is so that we don't become so absorbed with the creativity that we fail to take care of our relationships and responsibilities. It is easy to spellbind an audience with esoteric wisdom and assume unwarranted power.
Love the channel! Regards from Brazil.
I learned while living at a traditional Chinese Orthodox Mahayana Buddhist Way-place (focused on the 5 primary schools of Buddhist doctrine: Chan, Vinaya, Secret School (Mantra), Sutra/shastra and Pure Land) that Taoism, Confucianism and Buddhism are typically viewed by most Chinese people as fluid, having no hard or fast divisions between the 3... they all blend into one another at some point or other within the Chinese cultural narrative and tradition.This video provided a very useful and informative resource- with a brief, albeit in-depth background into the history of Taoism, which has furthered my understanding of how the Chinese perspective of metaphysical, ethical and epistemological aspects influence Chinese thinking, behavior and the interpretation of the world in general. I have often thought of Taoism as the 'physics/science' component as to how the phenomenal/observable world works; Buddhism as how and why one should behave in the spiritual context of inner existence/experience (Karma)- beyond empirical phenomenology- and Confucianism as the proper/harmonious way society should best be structured to increase beneficial outcomes for all, as well as provide instructions for the correct way that individual people should interact with one another to maximize harmony and happiness. Thank you for your very useful and helpful explanation- Much appreciated! -Namo Amituofo! Xie Xie...
What.............??? Confucian thinking is totally not fluid........it's extremely rigid. Many failures end in commiting suicide, I think seppukku is based on Confucian scholars of their obsession of commiting suicide. Taoism is fluid that I agree.
@@limitlesssky3050 Did I say it was 'fluid'? (can't seem to find that in my comment)- Also, I didn't even imply that it was preferable in any way, shape or form to any other system or methodology past, present or in some theoretical Utopian pipe-dreamland future- Next, can you provide an example of a system (any at all) that has provided 'better' results?... using your measuring stick of 'suicide'? What is the current suicide rate here in America again?... LMAO- and how many did the Communists slaughter (over 100 million) or the Christians, Muslims (pick one)... Point being, 'remaining fixated on perceived shortcomings and faults keeps you locked into a state of ignorance, incapable of truly understanding what it is you are attempting to comprehend- a mistake many a failed adversary have waffled in prior to their demise'- Confucius say... ;)
We call it “the path of least resistance” in English. Which basically means “the flow”. “Following the path of least resistance” is an American saying but we appreciate it had occurred in human thought multiple times in various places.
首先，道教是以老子道家思想为主。“道”这一词在中国古代指的是自然规律。道教的创始人叫张道陵，为西汉开国功臣张良的后代。在四川青城山创立天师道，也称五斗米教。黄老学说与老庄学说的核心思想观念于现在来看是有一定的朴素辩证唯物主义的。道家思想是哲学概念，道教是宗教。二者区别希望油主不要混淆。另外，道家典籍除了道德经和庄子外，还有文子、列子、亢仓子等。
I'm not sure what the correct answers are to the questions you asked, but I think this was extremely well done!
Great video, thanks!!
This was very interesting! Thank you for putting it together.
Western Taoism in my opinion is the part that remains when stripped of the supernatural and superstitious. The west recognizes this as valuable and worth paying attention to because it enables you to have an logically consistent ethos that is not based on Judeo-Christian-Islamic values, politics and theology. This also leads to why Zen is even more popular in the west - since it combines Taoism and Buddhism.
Awesome vid. Thanks. 👍
Just came across this Taoism video... Are you Don't Stop Thinking? I love your D&D and CoC videos! Didn't know you also study the Tao / cover Chinese history.
Well, at one point, everything was New Age, so... if one thing is shaped to improve someone's life, no matter what shape or application, I think it's good and beyond the necessities of returning to a old times that is never going to exist again.
There is a lingering, ubiquitous threat that what an individual perceives as improving their life is little more than power which by itself doesn't bring wisdom or compassion. It's even possible to abuse wisdom and compassion, using their displays to advance one's power.
I feel that part of the reason why Taoism became secularized in the west is because Chinese and Western culture are so alien from each other that the religious aspects of Taoism are not easy for a westerner to connect with and nor could they be effectively recreated by those in the west but part of it I think is also because information on the religious aspects of Taoism are typically kept within Chinese culture and that many within chinese people do not have the interest in passing this knowledge to westerners nor do they feel like they have a need to do so.
Chinese people are not hiding anything. All kinds of temples are open to the public. The real problem is you are assuming yellow skin gives inherent knowledge. Most Christians I have met don't know there own religion well. same same. Here and there and everywhere...
If you study with a Dao master you will learn what you are able to learn. Nothing is hidden. Dao is not a religion, Taoism may have religious aspects but that is not Dao.
ah so the same guy that teaches me about cthulhu is teaching history as well!! so my hats off to you sir. i trust youre thriving in your prolificness......
nice video sir. thank you for the info
I think "western" taoism is fine. I have a hard time reconciling the extreme superstitions and rituals with the philosophy.
Perhaps I could understand it as an aspect of Taoism easier if the daodejing or even chuang tzu had mentioned or gone into greater detail about these unnecessary esoteric practices but I don't believe hopping on one foot, rubbing your stomach and patting your head is "becoming a person of tao".
I was about to say something similar... you said it better
Perhaps as a Westerner not steeped in these traditions and only coming at this from a textual source claiming original "purism", you are perpetuating the exact kind of gentrification of ancient spiritual traditions the video talks about?
@@steve-ks9df perhaps but probably not
@@steve-ks9df
Absolutely...was thinking the same
The superstitions and rituals, or the "religious Taoism" seems exactly what happened to Hinduism.
i.e. They know there is some kind of "Truth", but we can't completely grasp it, so pluralism occurs. And the worst of it when it's become "paganist"--veneration of deities instead of Truth.
From my long experience with Zen, I'd say the Dao De Jing is to be read much as you work on a koan: you just take it in rather than interpret it. I'm not saying the philosophy of Daoism isn't valid, just that I don't think the author had something like that in mind.
very interesting video on taoism. Can't wait to see more videos.
Great stuff!
To me it seems that western Daoism is solely based on the Dao De Ching and Zhuangzi. These are, to my limited understanding, the only texts revered across all Daoist sects, and represent the core, undisputed heart of Daoism. So I suggest that western Daoism is just a minimalist, even essentialist Daoism.
I agree with your interpretation. Chinese folk history has a habit of inserting random superstition and cultural practices into everything. I believe the Philosophical approach to Taoism oft interpreted by Westerners is more accurate than the superstitious ones practiced elsewhere.
Classical Daoism. Let's throw in some of the Hanfeizi, Huainanzi, Guanzi and Wenzi also.
A flaw in your ideas here about philosophical (dao jia) and religious (dao jiao). Daoism..the Daode Jing was written 1,000 years before religious Daoism was created...there was no religious form of Daoism in ancient times...in other words, Laozi and Zhuangzi were not Daoists...the form of Daoism that Zhang Daoling created as the Tianshi , incorporated Laozi and Zhuangzi's work but also a lot of folk beliefs, shamanism and magic rituals, even some Buddhist practices and beliefs...there have always been lay or householder Daoists as well as celibate monks and nuns...but Laozi did not create a religion...it is true that the form of Daoism that most Westerners are drawn to his dao jia or what some people call Classical Daoism...it is also true that there is a lot of New Age nonsense out there but many of us are serious practitioners...
The lines between religion/philosophy/ideology are western ones and don't map well onto the original or evolution of Daoism or any other thought. If you had asked Laozi (or Zhuangzi) if he was inventing a religion or a philosophy, he wouldn't have understood the question. That's why the distinction between Daojia and Daojiao is being rejected.
@Clutch You're right. For example, religion in pre-Christian Scandinavia was a smorgasbord of local practices, legends, cults, and sacred sites. Those had functions deeply tied into society/politics. It was the attempt to preserve it in a way that could be read and responded to by the Christian church that necessitated it be written down as a canon and called Nordic Paganism. The same fate happened to practices in the Roman world centuries before as Christianity defined and polemically savaged its enemies. Christianity demanded individual devotion to it above any other tie, and that gradually became the conception of religion first and foremost as the question of belief and individual conscience. Doesn't mean it was so successful in practice, but the Protestant movement could be understood as a renewed offensive against religious practice. The enlightenment then set up 'philosophy' as the counterpoint to this, and the Age of Revolution then eventually gave us 'ideology'. But all are means of informing and motivating ties between people and affairs.
This pretty well echoes my thought. I got involved in studying Taoism years ago, and working at a big university, the library had at least 7 different translations of the Tao Te Ching... All slightly different, as you might imagine. I also attended a couple of lectures on Taoism by the late “Kheigh Deigh”, the actor who was also the manager of a Taoist facility in California.
The original ideas were quite free of religion.... A relatively simple life philosophy. But Taoism did become the state religion of China for some period of time, and was suffused with all manner of folk religious beliefs and such.
Religious Daoism was created by an emperor to thwart Daoism as he could not control Daoists and was worried it would spread. see Zhuang Zi 's story about the gilt turtle. Daojia and Daojiao are not the same even though in the west the same word is used. There is no superstition in Daojia
I love how the comments for this video convinced me not to watch the video lol
Very thorough History Lesson. I subscribe to Lao Tzu's version. Great video.
_Read_ (or listen to) the Tao Te Ching itself. Repeat that process at intervals, somewhat regularly. Each time it may speak to you differently, but taken to heart the words will always inspire new life in some way. The text itself is a wellspring.
Very interesting video. Thank you for posting. If Lao Tsu was an invented figure by Han dynasty historians where do they get these ideas from. Is it an oral tradition they are transcribing. Is it connected to Chinese bone divination and the earliest Chinese writings? Once again thanks.
Lao Tzu is not an invented character by Han Dynasty. Zhuang Zhi, a Taoist sage, the author of Zhuang Zhi wrote about the death of Lao Tzu (it's a fake account of the event), so Lao Tzu as a person is at least known back in the Warring era.
Interesting! My introduction to Taoism was a copy of the Tao Te Ching published by Penguin, and I thought it was one of the world's great religions, I'm sure it said it was in the introduction. It speaks of heaven and of life. It's beautiful. It leaves spaces for us to explore. Eternal truths, breath! I've read other translations since that never fit the bill like that one did. I think we need to cut out the middle man and take the words to heart. Let life reveal it's teaching.
Great video!
Good work
Where East meets West, that's the place I like the best
It is interesting. Lao Tsu leaves saying "stop trying to contain the Tao", the waring states erupt. They try to codify, deify and architype the Tao. This is the irony of religion.
Dao De Jing ch 18
"If you need rules to be kind and just,
if you act virtuous,
this is a sure sign that virtue is absent.
Thus we see the great hypocrisy.
When kinship falls into discord,
piety and rites of devotion arise.
When the country falls into chaos,
official loyalists will appear;
patriotism is born."
Don't you think it is equally ironic to quote Daodejing and use it as an authoritative source like a bible? LOL
@@CoolHistoryBros My intention wasn't to quote it as a rule of law. It was to quote as an observance of nature. I think that is what it is all suppose to be anyways. Words just appear beautiful to me.
Had studied a lot of this stuff a few years ago, but shockingly never heard of the Hundred Schools method or how this came together - just that it was "academically believed" that Lao Tzu's work was actually multiple people and writings. So that was fascinating to hear. No matter how likely false it is, I will always personally love the fabled tale of how the writings came to be from Lao Tzu trying to get away from the troubles of society by going to be a mountain hermit, but someone guarding a passage refused to let him through unless he shared his wisdom down in writing.
As for the philosophy and religious sides never being originally too far apart, I once read (I think from Eva Wong's book) that its very likely the philosophy had strong roots with changing times, and those still holding onto an old sense of Chinese shamanism, and this helped it flow straight onto what we call the "religious" form - which in some sects kinda takes on an approach that sounds close to a strange eastern wicca. Of course, a ton of close and more deliberate links would tie into Buddhism, which perhaps also helps it appear similar to New Age stuff of the current that borrows from Buddhism. So it really does sound like the two of religious & philosophy weren't that separable but rather just evolving together, but also easy to see how nobody from the west takes religious intent from mere translations of the base book.
Confucius actually mentioned he met Lao Tzu once, and asked him some questions (confucius was really young and Lao Tzu was old). That guy was probably real but not sure how many people have added their own thing into his writing.
Comparing and Contrasting is the best way to find Essence (not just Commonality).
New ageism has corrupted a lot of traditional modes of thought. Most of it is all about the easy path where a person can experience drive-by-enlightenment. There needs to be effort and contemplation for any success in your path.
If there is that much effort in your taoism, you're doing it wrong.
@@sneeringimperialist6667 developing an attitude of calm and joy takes a lot of effort. The same goes with humility and respect for others. This takes practice and is not easy.
Absolutely fascinating I've been reading different texts about Taoism, and different versions of the Tao te Ching for over forty years. While I've long been aware of a division between "religious" and "philosophical" Taoism I haven't come across such a detailed and straight-forward explanation as this before.
As for Western re-interpretations of Taoism, I like to think they have their own validity, and as long as we don't imagine we are simply importing "pure" Chinese thought but are really conjuring up a Chinese-inspired form of Western mysticism I think it's harmless at worst and at best may be productive.
Some cross-cultural fertilisation can be very productive. For example, Chan/Zen Buddhism is a hybrid of Chinese Taoist and Indian Buddhist thought and has been a great addition to Eastern thought and practice. Maybe we in the West can experience something similar.
One last thing, the gentleman doing the narrating pronounces Tao as Tao with a "T" - I have been given to understand it's pronounced Dao with a "D" and that it was the old Wade-Giles transliteration that rendered Tao with a "T" as this was pronounced as a "D" - but a T' in Wade Giles is a "T" sound. (I seem some commentators have written "Daoism." Any thoughts on pronunciation?
Wade-Giles is the old method of Romanizing and approximating Chinese phonology. This stopped being taught in 1979. Tao Te Ching, was how to write it in this way.
Pinyin is used in modern education in the West, hence why you see Dao De Jing.
As for your search with "religion" and "philosophy" - Many East-Asian countries didn't really have words for these things in the same way we did. They weren't entirely distinguished in the same way. In Japan the words for religion and philosophy are entirely modern inventions for the sake of categorizing, but scholars still struggle to separate the religious from the philosophical, especially with Japanese Buddhist & Shinto thought. In my opinion I see no issue with them conflating. They are two ways of looking at the same problems. They don't ALWAYS need to be contrasted. Perhaps that is the deeper teaching here, haha.
Thank you for your contribution.
I think you’ve given me a lot to think about.
I’ve read Le Guin’s “rendition” and even tried to apply some of it in my daily living, but I’ve always assumed it’s her way of putting an old text through her own lens, so I’ve always assumed I’m practicing “philosophical Le Guinism.” But now I have my doubts.
Read the Jonathan Starr translation.
Laurie, -- Seek the wisdom, guidance and understanding of the Tao through your one lens. It is an emptiness of simple pleasure that can not be explained or put into words.
It is written in the Old Testament ---
Be still and know that I am God.
Maybe the real Taoism was the friends we made along the way
I don't know you, but I love for saying that!
Or...maybe we just met on "the way" of this comment section...Real Tao is *always* in the comments.
"The Ming dynasty fails to get Daoism together"
And somehow you completely forgot to talk about the development of Quanzhen school, and the federation of many other smaller sects to the Celestial Master school to form Zhengyi school in Longhushan around/just before Yuan.
And despite having these two major denominations, by calling the Daozang project of collecting and revising the canon of ALL the sects into a volume of over 5000+ folios "a failure" would be quite a gloss-over, no?
The Ming Daozang came to my mind as well.
But, this is a short video that seeks to shed some light on points of confusion that especially "Westerners" have about Daoism.
I think the video could have explained their stance in a little more detail on why they don't consider the Tang or Ming dynasty efforts successful in establishing a standardized Daoist orthodoxy.
However, I think they are arguing that "Daoism" wasn't unified or standardized enough, and perhaps because of this, could not stand up to the movement toward "Confucian orthodoxy" by proponents of Han Learning 漢學. Who knows though?
Personally, I like that there is a bit more pluralism in Daoism.
I think there's a point to the video though. I mean, lots of people are still quite confused about what is and isn't Daoism.
@@tealeaf9260 If anything, I consider the federation and formation of Zhengyi Daoism and imperial recognition of Longhushan Tianshifu to be the defining moment when Daoism has really made it - and have two denominations, much like Catholicism and Protestantism (although on rough difference, the difference is reversed - Quanzhen, the later sect, is monastic and uses magic in the sect master's name rather than each individual practitioner, so is more "centralized" like Catholicism).
(NB:
As an aside; you have some very interesting music on you youtube page.
Love the time line- where cab I see that on its own?
5:08 secs, recall also the Northern Master of the now Canton Province, to Shanghai, The celestial masters of Taoism,