I think this may be one of the most important talks I’ve heard recently, especially in light of al that’s going on in the world right now. Thank you so much!
This video has been so illuminating to me! I’m a survivor of extreme domestic violence (and I pray that my ex husband is hopefully somewhere that prevents him from harming other women), and I am very reluctant to get into another relationship. I’m not at the spiritual peace of mind where I can forgive him. I do pray, and my favorite prayer is “Remover of Difficulties”. It works, but the fear is still there. I guess my fear is so overwhelming that I’m not trusting that I am now safe.
what you are describing is normal and I went thru it myself and my dear son would say mom, who is the ALMIGHTY, who is the ALL POWERFUL???? He reminded me also that I taught him the power of the greatest name!
Is it illuminating for children of hybstrophiliac moms? Is it illuminating for those chidren whose primary first example of a woman as hypocrit? And that mom wishes her own children were never born or imputes their only lot in life is be slaves?
Reflecting on one's own pattern in life, ouch! Talks of this caliber so clearly define the essentials we must acquire for personal and worldly sustainability. Thank you for your enlightenment and well-developed presentation.
Wow. I’ve been waiting years to hear this. I can’t thank you enough. This is exactly what I’ve been needing to hear from someone with your professional background. It’s like I’ve found water after being parched in the desert. Understanding is the first step in the journey I need to take. With God’s grace, you’ve enabled a major shift in me.
I am concerned that someone living with an abuser may hear this and think, I am not permitted to estrange myself from this person, I must be willing to accept this discomfort (I've heard that said about five times in this video). It is very difficult for me to believe that is what is intended. Everything I know about the Faith is that the rights of individuals are protected, and that the oppressed and abused are protected. I would not want someone living in that situation to believe they are not living up to the standards of the Faith if they take appropriate steps to protect themselves (i.e. leave, appeal to the law, etc...). For me, I think the definition of forgiveness (which I haven't heard discussed here) is to not carry around hateful angry feelings and I do think forgiveness is ultimately healing for the individual. But to say do not be estranged, accept the discomfort of abuse, is out of character with the whole entirety of how the Faith protects individuals. My fear is someone will listen to how this is presented and continue to stay in a situation of abuse, thinking they are being "a good Baha'i". It is also likely that if they have lived in that situation for a while, they are already heaping blame upon themselves. My belief about the Baha'i Faith is that it respects the dignity of individuals (and that includes an individual having encouragement to accept their own inherent nobility, and their rights). Clearly this is my opinion and my interpretation, but, yes, go to the actual Writings and also read "Guidelines for Spiritual Assemblies on Domestic Violence" which includes this: "There are situations in which the behavior of some family member(s) jeopardizes the physical, mental, emotional, or spiritual health and well-being of others to such an extent, and there is so little indication that the abusive behavior will abate, that there may be no other recourse than for the abused party or parties to withdraw from the destructive relationship, temporarily or indefinitely. Although individuals should strive to be forgiving and forbearing for whatever injuries were inflicted in the past, no one is obliged to submit to further abuse." Yes, that's a document for an Institution, but it clearly states an abused party may withdraw from a destructive relationship.
Just started the video, but thanks for adding this. I cut off my abusive mother years ago and she just popped up yet again, which usually means she needs something and is going to butter me up and lie for a while to get it. I thought this video was well-timed in my feed, but I had cut her out originally because I had read the quote about not showing kindness to the deceiver. I never read these writings to meet accepting abuse or manipulation. If you forgive over and over and the person takes advantage and abuses over and over, it doesnt help anybody. If you give chances and they don’t improve, then remove yourself and leave them be. It protects and helps both of you.
Yes, I think she has corrected some misapprehensions or imbalanced emphases of other people, but in the process allowed a bit to occur in the other direction. Wisdom and moderation in all things.
Regarding disease of the soul - when speaking about Jesus, Abdu'l Baha explained that Jesus treated spiritual blindness, deafness, leprosy, death. There are many non-Baha'is who suffer from diseases of the soul. It would be rather unreasonable to imagine that only Covenant Breakers suffer from them.
I strongly agree. If the animal-to-people analogy is used, it seems to me the definitions should be equally broad, not just rulers, etc., nor "disease of a soul" mean only Covenant-breakers. Looking up mentions of a particular term amidst the Writings is artificially narrow.
This presentation is so timely and much appreciated thank you for looking deeply into this incredibly difficult challenge. Those five imperatives you outlined brought the exact clear guidance I’ve been waiting to hear - the answer to my prayer
The tyrant referred to in the quote is not only a reference to rulers. The deceiver and the thief are not references to rulers but to people in general. In this context it is obvious that the tyrant here is just a third category of people to whom kindness cannot be shown.
I think you are totally right, based on the context. There is also at the very least one other quotation to support that, namely to the effect ".....even as we don't let ourselves be mistreated, we don't allow the handmaidens to be, either". Avoiding evil-doers and considering the avoidance of "wordly" "boastful" people as a "precious benefit" are exhortations that to me clearly do NOT advocate passive long-term victimization. Common sense should tell us when both victim and victimizer are in a toxic situation, the former physically or mentally and the latter spiritually. It also seems to me disingenuous to say the word "boundary" isn't in the Writings, as some of these statements mean exactly that.
In the quote of Abdu'l Baha where he says that kindness cannot be shown to the thief, the deceiver and the tyrant an analogy from the animal kingdom is used. To say that the quote speaks about the treatment of animals is somewhat misguided. It is an analogy comparing thieves, deceivers and tyrants to pernicious animals.
Great Video. As you have said in the introduction, we should take the Baha'i teachings holistically and taking one part may lead to misunderstanding or harm. I want to add the following quote to make it even more comprehensive. (Copied from Ocean) 1341. We Must Love God and thus Love for All Men becomes Possible "We must never take one sentence in the Teachings and isolate it from the rest: it does not mean we must not love, but we must reach a spiritual plane where God comes first and great human passions are unable to turn us away from Him. All the time we see people who either through the force of hate or the passionate attachment they have to another person, sacrifice principle or bar themselves from the Path of God. "We know absence of light is darkness, but no one would assert darkness was not a fact. It exists even though it is only the absence of something else. So evil exists too, and we cannot close our eyes to it, even though it is a negative existence. We must seek to supplant it by good, and if we see an evil person is not influenceable by us, then we should shun his company for it is unhealthy. (Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 403)
43:42 & 51:50 You find all these excerpts of 5 absolute forbidden things that sound so weighty and dramatic that hold everyone accountable to walk on water to commit to if they have any chance worth at all of being Bahai, but, there's a danger about finding excerpts and insisting on them being absolute truth: reminder "We must never take one sentence in the Teachings and isolate it from the rest: it does not mean we must not love, but we must reach a spiritual plane where God comes first and great human passions are unable to turn us away from Him. All the time we see people who either through the force of hate or the passionate attachment they have to another person, sacrifice principle or bar themselves from the path of God. "We know absence of light is darkness, but no one would assert darkness was not a fact. It exists even though it is only the absence of something else. So evil exists too, and we cannot close our eyes to it, even though it is a negative existence. We must seek to supplant it by good, and if we see an evil person is not influenceable by us, then we should shun his company for it is unhealthy." (From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, October 4, 1950:
When Abdul'-Baha arrived in New York City, a cab driver was lying, deceiving and cheating, and Abdul'-Baha slapped him. Not out of Anger, but how it relates to the opening statement, of how not to let liars think they are not recognized, as they will continue in that behavior. That's not saying WE should slap people. But we are also not pacifists.
Life is such a paradox. We have to balance all manner of opposites to arrive at the suitable response to any situation. I must be forgiving, but I must also be fair to myself and others. Two seemingly opposite virtues. The spiritual path is replete with such paradoxes that must be navigated with humility, openness, sincere consultation and unity. It seems that striking this important balance can be overshadowed if one misconstrues "justice" for one's latent sadism or condescension. The application of justice is the sum of all spiritual teachings in that it requires that we first "know of our own knowledge" and "see with our own eyes." The term for this in the original arabic is "ensaf." It is not a word traditionally used to refer to justice, but to an individual's own fairmindedness. Interestingly, the Guardian did not translate "ensaf" as "fairmindedness," its literal meaning but as "justice" which literally is another word, "adl," which is the word in the title of the Universal House of Justice, for instance. So, the Guardian links the ability to see with one's own eyes and know of one's own knowledge, personal qualities of "ensaf," with the administration of justice, "adl." We can understand the wisdom and powerful insight he gives us. Often, this "seeing" and "knowing" of fairmindedness, "ensaf," is clouded by passions of self-righteousness, anger, fear, preconceived and innacurate assumptions, vices we are all subject to. So, a cleansing of perception is needed to see things first as they really are and not as we would like them to be or as we are accustomed to thinking or led to believe. In this, it seems, the harshness of interpretation of this verse enters into our thinking. If we are on an administrative body, we may confuse our own angry tendencies with the application of justice. So, for our own spiritual health we must be individually forgiving of our persecutors and refer matters of fairness to an institution. Simultaneously, those administrative bodies must be populated by individuals who are humbly observant of this discipline Baha'u'llah directs all "rulers" to observe: "It behooveth every ruler to weigh his own being every day in the balance of equity ("ensaf") and justice ("adl") and then to judge between men and counsel them to do that which would direct their steps unto the path of wisdom and understanding. This is the cornerstone of statesmanship and the essence thereof." The Lawh-i-Maqsud, Tablets of Baha'u'llah revealed after the Kitab-i-Aqdas
The harmony of science & religion dictates we assimilate neuroscience on such things as neurological imprinting and the mind-body connection regarding emotional trauma on brain development.
Sometimes strange things happen on my computer. I don't know if its my fault for asking it to do things out of its scope or crowding its memory. Alternately, it could be unintended inteorference or harassment. Either way, I'll set myself to beng kind to my neighbors.
Disease of the soul doesn't only refer to Covenant Breakers. In the talk about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, Abdu'l Baha says that "the haters of the light", haters of divine perfections, are sick beyond recovery. In this talk Abdu'l Baha doesn't specifically name Covenant Breakers. This is why it is the tested Baha'is, like Susan Gammage, who have the power to teach. Baha'is should stick to teaching about life experiences that they have had.
Not "showing kindness" does not mean to be ugly to them! Not "showing kindness" is also as an assistance to the person who lies. Show him a better way! I am a lot kinder to a liar than I am to a tyrant (everything being relative!). I will not attack or injure him but do nothing that helps him in his tyranny. If a family member is backbiting all the time, it will affect your spiritual wellbeing. If you are as weak as a Baha'i as me. It is like not contacting a Covenant breaker! You do not hate him but to protect your soul. Because that will be a poisonous relationship! It is easy to forgive, but since the "company of the ungodly increases sorrow", you have to protect your soul.
I think you got shame and guilt turned around. Shame can lead to guilt or innocense, eventually to vengeance or forgiveness. First Leaf of Words of Paradise of Baha'u'llah He describes the value of a sense of shame. What about trust? Kindness is not nice. It is engagement at a level that can be mutually uncomfortable. Thank you for your service.
If a couple has a disagrement should one of one give a make up gift to the other? A psychologist pointed out that modern culture's theory says this would reward the undesired behavior. Would Baha'is tend to approve of the gift giving?
Psychological science regarding narcissism, response to "negative sanctions", etc. understands the difference between beneficial tolerance and entrenching, destructive indulgence. I think that is the moral of the Master's exposition: tolerance versus enabling indulgence.
This talk is interesting but does not provide a clear direct answer to the subject matter. The last part of the talk when she addresses the matter of victims distancing themselves from abusers and wrongdoers as a means of creating boundaries and she says that it is not permissible according to the Baha'i standards. She says the only people Baha'is can distance themselves from are covenant breakers, this is not correct and does not reflect the teachings of the Baha'i faith. It shows that she lacks a depth of understanding. It is rather clear in Baha'i teachings that followers are commanded to "eschew fellowship with the ungodly". Ungoldly here doesn't mean atheist and humanist for all people are created by God in God's image and have Gold-like qualities, but "ungodly" refers to those who are far removed from the state of "godliness", which means the wayward with selfish motives and sickness of the soul, tyrants, and thieves. When these wicked doers do not change their ways after being counseled, they have to be shunned and kindness cannot be shown to them, according to the following quotation by Shogieffendi "We know absence of light is darkness, but no one would assert darkness was not a fact. It exists even though it is only the absence of something else. So evil exists too, and we cannot close our eyes to it, even though it is a negative existence. We must seek to supplant it by good, and if we see an evil person is not influenceable by us, then we should shun his company for it is unhealthy." (From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, October 4, 1950: Spiritualism, Psychic Phenomena and Related Subjects, A Compilation from the Universal House of Justice, February 14, 1973 to National Spiritual Assemblies, in Lights of Guidance, nos. 1341, 1734) "Kindness cannot be shown the tyrant, the deceiver, or the thief, because, far from awakening them to the error of their ways, it maketh them to continue in their perversity as before." (Selections from the Writings of `Abdu'l-Bahá pages 158-160) However, we should be benevolent, which means we should wish them well and pursue justice as punishment might help them change their ways. I hope these quotes provide a more direct answer to those who are searching for one.
Hello, if bahais have to pray and obey their butchers, how could bahai faith survive in a near future? If we have to die by the first murderer we meet in the street = no more bahais in the world, so the faith disappeared like the faith of zoroaster. It deeply concerns me
I think it is important however, for Baha'is to use Baha'i language and not common language that has taken on other connotations. Such as, "Privilege" takes on a Marxist, BLM meaning.(Part of Communism which Shoghi Effendi called one of the great evils.)
Yesssssss thank you. I keep seeing these buzzwords in all the Bahai media, podcasts, websites, etc. I’m starting to feel crazy being SO offput and worried by it.
Here's a challenge for all you legalese scholars, especially in America: Areas of interest Landmark supreme court case NYT vs. Sullivan 1964, viral youtube video "Simon Campbell Calls Out Pennsbury School Board During Public", and 1st amendment " First Amendment Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
You can criticize public officials (and others) without being unkind. A lot of the issue is how sensitive people are and how desperately our society wants to avoid any modicum of a feeling of shame. Shame, like any emotion, can be used for good or for bad and can get too excessive in either direction. Correction and upholding public standards are extremely important to a virtuous society. The lack of this is why we have an explosion of not only publicly tolerated or accepted but *endorsed* degeneracy. Now, as Bahais we’re not supposed to get involved in politics. However school boards are nonpartisan. I have spoken in front of mine and shared my thoughts before and I stuck to the ISSUE, not to people or names. If you can stick to the issues and the facts, I don’t see any reason these cases become an issue as a Bahai. In fact, I wish there were more Bahais speaking at school boards as were supposed to take education extremely seriously.
Well it was surprising to hear such logically lousy presentation of the Faith from none other than a LAWYER. Abdulbaha embraced the son of the Shah in France because he was in no position to continue harming Abdulbaha in France. Being forgiving when there is virtually no cost associated with forgiveness isn't that big of a deal. But tell me why a woman should keep forgiving an abusive husband "hundred thousand times over" if it means raising miserable children and subjecting them also to an abusive father? If you meant something else by "forgiveness", this long talk was your chance to clarify!
Sarah, Justice and Forgiveness can co-exist. In my presentation, I share a letter from the House of Justice on domestic violence and forgiveness (but there is much more available online). One can be protected and receive justice from domestic violence while also forgiving. "The Bahá'í Faith draws a very definite distinction between the duty of an individual to forgive and 'to be killed rather than to kill' and the duty of society to uphold justice. This matter is explained by 'Abdu'l-Bahá in 'Some Answered Questions'." (Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 407)
@@laylimiller-muro5190 I must thank you for your rapid response. I will certainly read the resources you mentioned and provided, but based on what I have heard so far, this is my response: If by "Justice" you mean what is determined in the court of law, many encounters of abuse in real life do not raise to the level of litigation. In other words, in most instances, one has to personally decide if she was wronged and justice needs to be served. The teaching of better 'to be killed rather than to kill' has not much use in real life either, again, most encounter of abuse is about ongoing issues which does not include murder. So, in case of being robbed by an acquaintance, does forgiveness mean acting like nothing happened? Or contact authorities and making sure justice is served, and forgive afterwards (which could mean many different things)? What if I am verbally abused constantly at work or school? Does forgiveness mean acting like nothing happened? Wouldn't that encourage the abuser to continue his behavior also towards others (like what Abdulbaha predicted?) What I am trying to convey with these examples is, that if we are to talk about the forgiveness principle in the Baha'i teachings, leaving it at the level of abstraction and implying that the bar is so high that is basically impossible to meet only adds to the guilty feeling and discouragement of the believers. If we treat our scripture like the Constitution, deriving provisions impossible to follow leads to disappointment, which could in turn lead to breaking other easier-to-follow teachings.
Layli Miller-Muro I have to say to Sarah McBeth you are absolutely right. You have a very good point Sarah. Its entirely 1 situation to be Abdu'l-Baha a 9 year old child seeing his Father dragged out of the sewage of a horrible prison Shia Chal prison in Tehran covered in excrement (which is part of Bahai history) witnessing arrest after arrest after arrests in the midst of a Holocaust of extreme danger, torture and persecution and then be Abdu'l-Baha a 68 year old man when Abdu'l-Baha is finally freely travelling in Europe free in countries where he is free to travel teach with an entourage of supportive travellers, no longer a refugee, feeling absolved with the Faith finally surviving and spreading then and knowing the son of 1 of the most opressive Tyrants is exiled and impotent to commit to the same holocaust he'd gladly still commit, but can't. When these virtue signalling desensitized Church lady karens quote Bahai Scriptures saying "we must instantly forgive them" they are like Mary Antoinette saying to the plebians' starving children "let them eat cake." Show me where in the Bahai Writings "instantly forgive them" has an actual duration of how forgiveness works and I've got a bridge to sell you.
She actually explained quite clearly that in situations such as you have mentioned, there has to be much more of a response on multiple levels depending on whether one considers the matter from the point of view of the individual, the community, or an institution. The House of Justice has been writing letters about such scenarios since the early 90s in response to many questions much like your own. Refer, for example, to their letter regarding domestic violence and the abuse of women and children from 1992 which began a whole series of letters in response to the statement from Universal House of Justice, since many people began to write with their own questions about the unimaginably difficult situations they faced. Now the body of guidance that we have has grown considerably. I can only urge you to listen more closely to her presentation. I think you will be more than gratified. That said, adequately handling scenarios like those you've described requires complex and nuanced responses that do not lend themselves to simple black and white answers. Her explanations are not simple or easy to grasp on first listen, because the problems and solutions to those problems are not simple at all. It requires some very close listening. I know when I was recovering from abuse it was very difficult for me to think about any kind of related subject abstractly. It took time and a lot of distance before inwardly I felt safe enough to begin to process and free myself from what I had faced. Had I tried to listen to the presentation she gives here before I went through that process, my own understanding of what she offers would have been very black and white, and frankly I'd have no doubt outright scolded her even more than you have done, because I just could not listen until I worked my way through all those emotions. May God heal and protect you, and free you from the turmoil, whether you are speaking out from your own situation as the frame of reference, or pursuing justice and heightened awareness on behalf of others, I can only have the greatest respect for your advocacy, and I encourage you, if possible, to put put your anger and frustration aside even just for a short time in order to listen again.💕
@@kmanifacier Thank you so much for taking time and writing this elaborate response and ending it with kind words. I don’t know why you think if I am questioning I am angry. I might have been a bit frustrated, but definitely not angry. Perhaps you didn’t read my response carefully either. My comment was precisely about the fact that these issues are complex and do not lend themselves to simple black and white answers! I specifically gave a few examples to reiterate the complexity of this issue. Let me ask you this: what would a reasonable person understand from this claim, that you must forgive someone who has wronged you “hundred thousand times”? It could ONLY mean that you expose yourself to the same situation hundred thousand times, otherwise that large number of forgiving would not be necessary. Now I would understand forgiving that person once, giving them a second chance (depending on the situation), but if they wrong you again, forgive them again but at the same time avoid being exposed in the same manner. Like, continue being friends with them but don’t do business with them anymore. Or continue being friends with them but avoid being in the same room alone with them again. But when one is asked to forgive hundred thousand times over, it basically means keep giving them chances for the rest of your life. Isn’t religion suppose to be in harmony with reason?! Tell me how this specific understanding of this teaching is reasonable?
In his 2012 Green Acre talk, Former Universal House of Justice member Ali Nakhjavani talks about an unstranslated tablet in Persian or Arabic Where Baha'u'llah says if the horribly wronged won't forgive, than Baha'u'llah won't forgive the victim for not forgiving, and I think that's B.S. until it's revealed in English. Ultimately even the Manifestation of God had to pass the Forgiveness debt on to God. Where Jesus says while being crucified: Luke "23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. " In the brutal moments of Baha'u'llah being left for dead in a world of Sh--t in the Sia Chal He had Divine intervention and could perceive a blissful Woman Angel. I doubt any of you prattling high profile influencer speaker Baha'is know a damn thing what being truly humiliated ever feels like and perceiving the kind of perpetrators who get legal impunity and are encouraged with more impunity. Amatu'l-Baha' RK was right when she said Baha'is are becoming snobs.
"Thou art like unto the pupil of the eye which is dark in colour, yet it is the fount of light and the revealer of the contingent world." -`Abdu'l-Bahá
This topic is a trigger because it is being taught by privileged Baha'is who haven't been tested. There is a big difference between Jesus or Abdu'l Baha teaching forgiveness and privileged Chrsitians or Baha'is who haven't experienced any hardship whatsoever teaching it.
Jesus said love thy neighbor as thyself. Jesus said forgive and you will be forgiven there already is a thrice Holy God we don't need a dead man. wake up it's already been said and done he just stole it from the bible. foolish people.
@@cath.lamontagne5357 Jesus is the way the truth and the life NO MAN COMES UNTO THE FATHER BUT THROUGH ME THE FIRST BOOK EVER WRITTEN BAHI IS DEAD JESUS IS ALIVE WORK IT OUT. THERE IS NO OTHER NAME GIVEN UNDER HEAVEN WHICH MAN CAN BE SAVED. IF YOU LOVE LIFE AND WANT MORE JESUS IS THE WAY NOT A DEAD MAN. GET IT. JESUS IS THE GIVER OF LIFE DON'T BE SO BLIND.
@@garyibelieve483 dear brother-believer in the Glory of God why shout at me? See Matthew 12.25. We are believers in the One True God. I pray do not seek to divide us. Why accuse the followers of the « Glory of God » of stealing His message? We attest to the truth and seek to live up to the high station that His Holiness Jesus Christ calls us to uphold see Matthew 11.25 to 11.30.
I am a christian my life is hidden in christ life eternal. I follow the one who rose from the dead and sat at the right hand of the father and ALL POWER AND GLORY WAS GIVEN UNTO HIM. You people follow a dead man so your destiny is life without Christ what your faith teaches is common sense and you got it from the Bible a dead man can't help you, Its not of works it is by faith in Jesus.
This is winning argument for exactly nobody. All of us the USA have heard this drivel our whole lives, and it certainly never made me want to be a Christian. You’re part of a dying religion, because trying to enlist people with shame and fear is not working. I will take a God who respects good works over hypocritical “faith” ANY day.
@@MissRegionRat You are deceived You are following a false prophet Jesus is the way the truth and the life simples. Bhai stole from the Bible and the Koran he is dead in the ground just like mo-ham-mad and the rest of them. Follow the one who rose from the dead you cant go wrong don't be deceived work it it out Jesus gives Salvation there is only one truth work it out you poor deceived person
@@garyibelieve483 You don’t even know the names for what you’re talking about. There is nobody named “Bhai.” And our faith “steals” no more than yours did from Judaism. You know a lot of that Old Testament bit isn’t yours, right? Genesis, Exodus, Deuteronomy, Leviticus-did you steal all those? Did Jesus steal from Moses and Malachi? Ask the Jews what they think. You’re going to talk yourself in circles. Building on previous faiths is what we believe in just as much as you do. We’ve just added more chapters to the book than you have lately. But the biggest difference is you don’t see us going around with bizarre, condescending threats to those who don’t believe as we do.
@@MissRegionRat You are just lost religious people following a dead man Jesus is life and if you want to live you must find him bahi is dead like every one else. How dumb are you to follow a dead sinner?. Jesus is the way the truth and the life. Amen Bahi is a false prophet.
@@MissRegionRat Maybe i should say false prophet Bahola. is that better he is still a false prophet. A dead man who is a sinner like you and me can not save and that is that. Jesus rose from the dead i think he is the one we should follow. And is not his name also Bahiulla claiming to be god and the return of Jesus? Think about it he is a lier simples.
I think this may be one of the most important talks I’ve heard recently, especially in light of al that’s going on in the world right now. Thank you so much!
I watch your channel! It's good to meet you here.
This video has been so illuminating to me! I’m a survivor of extreme domestic violence (and I pray that my ex husband is hopefully somewhere that prevents him from harming other women), and I am very reluctant to get into another relationship. I’m not at the spiritual peace of mind where I can forgive him. I do pray, and my favorite prayer is “Remover of Difficulties”. It works, but the fear is still there. I guess my fear is so overwhelming that I’m not trusting that I am now safe.
❤😢I will pray for you.
@@cath.lamontagne5357
what you are describing is normal and I went thru it myself and my dear son would say mom, who is the ALMIGHTY, who is the ALL POWERFUL???? He reminded me also that I taught him the power of the greatest name!
Is it illuminating for children of hybstrophiliac moms? Is it illuminating for those chidren whose primary first example of a woman as hypocrit? And that mom wishes her own children were never born or imputes their only lot in life is be slaves?
Humble prayers are for Layli's mother, who educated her, the way she did.
Thank you so much for your enlightening talk. 💛
I am grateful for this carefully prepared talk and explanation regarding a fundamental teaching of our beloved Faith. Thank you Ms. Miller-Muro.
God is good. I needed to hear this tonight. Had me in tears. Thank you❤️
😢same for me…this is very difficult… I Iive in a puddle of resentment. It is pitiable.
Reflecting on one's own pattern in life, ouch! Talks of this caliber so clearly define the essentials we must acquire for personal and worldly sustainability. Thank you for your enlightenment and well-developed presentation.
Wow. I’ve been waiting years to hear this. I can’t thank you enough. This is exactly what I’ve been needing to hear from someone with your professional background. It’s like I’ve found water after being parched in the desert. Understanding is the first step in the journey I need to take. With God’s grace, you’ve enabled a major shift in me.
Enlightening.
Thank you, dear friends. This was so uplifting and edifying.
Beautiful talk and very helpful.
Thanks for sharing, we are blessed to be BAHAI FAITH MEMBERS!
Love and Peace to all!
I am concerned that someone living with an abuser may hear this and think, I am not permitted to estrange myself from this person, I must be willing to accept this discomfort (I've heard that said about five times in this video). It is very difficult for me to believe that is what is intended. Everything I know about the Faith is that the rights of individuals are protected, and that the oppressed and abused are protected. I would not want someone living in that situation to believe they are not living up to the standards of the Faith if they take appropriate steps to protect themselves (i.e. leave, appeal to the law, etc...). For me, I think the definition of forgiveness (which I haven't heard discussed here) is to not carry around hateful angry feelings and I do think forgiveness is ultimately healing for the individual. But to say do not be estranged, accept the discomfort of abuse, is out of character with the whole entirety of how the Faith protects individuals. My fear is someone will listen to how this is presented and continue to stay in a situation of abuse, thinking they are being "a good Baha'i". It is also likely that if they have lived in that situation for a while, they are already heaping blame upon themselves. My belief about the Baha'i Faith is that it respects the dignity of individuals (and that includes an individual having encouragement to accept their own inherent nobility, and their rights). Clearly this is my opinion and my interpretation, but, yes, go to the actual Writings and also read "Guidelines for Spiritual Assemblies on Domestic Violence" which includes this: "There are situations in which the behavior of some family member(s) jeopardizes the physical, mental, emotional, or spiritual health and well-being of others to such an extent, and there is so little indication that the abusive behavior will abate, that there may be no other recourse than for the abused party or parties to withdraw from the destructive relationship, temporarily or indefinitely. Although individuals should strive to be forgiving and forbearing for whatever injuries were inflicted in the past, no one is obliged to submit to further abuse." Yes, that's a document for an Institution, but it clearly states an abused party may withdraw from a destructive relationship.
Well said.
Just started the video, but thanks for adding this. I cut off my abusive mother years ago and she just popped up yet again, which usually means she needs something and is going to butter me up and lie for a while to get it. I thought this video was well-timed in my feed, but I had cut her out originally because I had read the quote about not showing kindness to the deceiver.
I never read these writings to meet accepting abuse or manipulation. If you forgive over and over and the person takes advantage and abuses over and over, it doesnt help anybody. If you give chances and they don’t improve, then remove yourself and leave them be. It protects and helps both of you.
Yes, I think she has corrected some misapprehensions or imbalanced emphases of other people, but in the process allowed a bit to occur in the other direction. Wisdom and moderation in all things.
As Baha'i principles become more widely known, intrigue planners may be less inclined to mistake kindness for vunerability, a roundabout improvement.
Appreciate greatly this presentation.
I think it is vital that forgiveness is clearly understood .
Regarding disease of the soul - when speaking about Jesus, Abdu'l Baha explained that Jesus treated spiritual blindness, deafness, leprosy, death. There are many non-Baha'is who suffer from diseases of the soul. It would be rather unreasonable to imagine that only Covenant Breakers suffer from them.
I strongly agree. If the animal-to-people analogy is used, it seems to me the definitions should be equally broad, not just rulers, etc., nor "disease of a soul" mean only Covenant-breakers. Looking up mentions of a particular term amidst the Writings is artificially narrow.
Exceptionally important!
THANK YOU SO MUCH for discussing this online. I can't thank you enough!
This presentation is so timely and much appreciated thank you for looking deeply into this incredibly difficult challenge. Those five imperatives you outlined brought the exact clear guidance I’ve been waiting to hear - the answer to my prayer
The tyrant referred to in the quote is not only a reference to rulers. The deceiver and the thief are not references to rulers but to people in general. In this context it is obvious that the tyrant here is just a third category of people to whom kindness cannot be shown.
I think you are totally right, based on the context. There is also at the very least one other quotation to support that, namely to the effect ".....even as we don't let ourselves be mistreated, we don't allow the handmaidens to be, either". Avoiding evil-doers and considering the avoidance of "wordly" "boastful" people as a "precious benefit" are exhortations that to me clearly do NOT advocate passive long-term victimization. Common sense should tell us when both victim and victimizer are in a toxic situation, the former physically or mentally and the latter spiritually. It also seems to me disingenuous to say the word "boundary" isn't in the Writings, as some of these statements mean exactly that.
In the quote of Abdu'l Baha where he says that kindness cannot be shown to the thief, the deceiver and the tyrant an analogy from the animal kingdom is used. To say that the quote speaks about the treatment of animals is somewhat misguided. It is an analogy comparing thieves, deceivers and tyrants to pernicious animals.
Great Video. As you have said in the introduction, we should take the Baha'i teachings holistically and taking one part may lead to misunderstanding or harm. I want to add the following quote to make it even more comprehensive. (Copied from Ocean)
1341. We Must Love God and thus Love for All Men becomes Possible
"We must never take one sentence in the Teachings and isolate it from the rest: it does not mean we must not love, but we must reach a spiritual plane where God comes first and great human passions are unable to turn us away from Him. All the time we see people who either through the force of hate or the passionate attachment they have to another person, sacrifice principle or bar themselves from the Path of God.
"We know absence of light is darkness, but no one would assert darkness was not a fact. It exists even though it is only the absence of something else. So evil exists too, and we cannot close our eyes to it, even though it is a negative existence. We must seek to supplant it by good, and if we see an evil person is not influenceable by us, then we should shun his company for it is unhealthy.
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 403)
43:42 & 51:50 You find all these excerpts of 5 absolute forbidden things that sound so weighty and dramatic that hold everyone accountable to walk on water to commit to if they have any chance worth at all of being Bahai, but, there's a danger about finding excerpts and insisting on them being absolute truth: reminder "We must never take one sentence in the Teachings and isolate it
from the rest: it does not mean we must not love, but we must
reach a spiritual plane where God comes first and great human
passions are unable to turn us away from Him. All the time we see
people who either through the force of hate or the passionate
attachment they have to another person, sacrifice principle or
bar themselves from the path of God. "We know absence of light is
darkness, but no one would assert darkness was not a fact. It
exists even though it is only the absence of something else. So
evil exists too, and we cannot close our eyes to it, even though
it is a negative existence. We must seek to supplant it by good,
and if we see an evil person is not influenceable by us, then we
should shun his company for it is unhealthy."
(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual
believer, October 4, 1950:
When Abdul'-Baha arrived in New York City, a cab driver was lying, deceiving and cheating, and Abdul'-Baha slapped him. Not out of Anger, but how it relates to the opening statement, of how not to let liars think they are not recognized, as they will continue in that behavior. That's not saying WE should slap people. But we are also not pacifists.
Did he actually do that?
Do you have your source?😮
Interesting perspective!
I feel uplifted and educated by this perspective on our Western Justice System. Knowledgeable about the Baha’i perspective! Love the music……
Life is such a paradox. We have to balance all manner of opposites to arrive at the suitable response to any situation. I must be forgiving, but I must also be fair to myself and others. Two seemingly opposite virtues. The spiritual path is replete with such paradoxes that must be navigated with humility, openness, sincere consultation and unity. It seems that striking this important balance can be overshadowed if one misconstrues "justice" for one's latent sadism or condescension. The application of justice is the sum of all spiritual teachings in that it requires that we first "know of our own knowledge" and "see with our own eyes." The term for this in the original arabic is "ensaf." It is not a word traditionally used to refer to justice, but to an individual's own fairmindedness. Interestingly, the Guardian did not translate "ensaf" as "fairmindedness," its literal meaning but as "justice" which literally is another word, "adl," which is the word in the title of the Universal House of Justice, for instance. So, the Guardian links the ability to see with one's own eyes and know of one's own knowledge, personal qualities of "ensaf," with the administration of justice, "adl." We can understand the wisdom and powerful insight he gives us. Often, this "seeing" and "knowing" of fairmindedness, "ensaf," is clouded by passions of self-righteousness, anger, fear, preconceived and innacurate assumptions, vices we are all subject to. So, a cleansing of perception is needed to see things first as they really are and not as we would like them to be or as we are accustomed to thinking or led to believe. In this, it seems, the harshness of interpretation of this verse enters into our thinking. If we are on an administrative body, we may confuse our own angry tendencies with the application of justice. So, for our own spiritual health we must be individually forgiving of our persecutors and refer matters of fairness to an institution. Simultaneously, those administrative bodies must be populated by individuals who are humbly observant of this discipline Baha'u'llah directs all "rulers" to observe: "It behooveth every ruler to weigh his own being every day in the balance of equity ("ensaf") and justice ("adl") and then to judge between men and counsel them to do that which would direct their steps unto the path of wisdom and understanding. This is the cornerstone of statesmanship and the essence thereof." The Lawh-i-Maqsud, Tablets of Baha'u'llah revealed after the Kitab-i-Aqdas
This gives no room for trauma response, a natural bodily and emotional response to anyone or anything that harms you.
The harmony of science & religion dictates we assimilate neuroscience on such things as neurological imprinting and the mind-body connection regarding emotional trauma on brain development.
Sometimes strange things happen on my computer. I don't know if its my fault for asking it to do things out of its scope or crowding its memory. Alternately, it could be unintended inteorference or harassment. Either way, I'll set myself to beng kind to my neighbors.
Disease of the soul doesn't only refer to Covenant Breakers. In the talk about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, Abdu'l Baha says that "the haters of the light", haters of divine perfections, are sick beyond recovery. In this talk Abdu'l Baha doesn't specifically name Covenant Breakers.
This is why it is the tested Baha'is, like Susan Gammage, who have the power to teach. Baha'is should stick to teaching about life experiences that they have had.
.....and we know it was she who wrote to the House, as she documented openly in her work, to her great credit.
What if someone speaks ill of our institutions and doesn't respect them. It hurts me to hear them talk.
Not "showing kindness" does not mean to be ugly to them! Not "showing kindness" is also as an assistance to the person who lies. Show him a better way! I am a lot kinder to a liar than I am to a tyrant (everything being relative!). I will not attack or injure him but do nothing that helps him in his tyranny. If a family member is backbiting all the time, it will affect your spiritual wellbeing. If you are as weak as a Baha'i as me. It is like not contacting a Covenant breaker! You do not hate him but to protect your soul. Because that will be a poisonous relationship! It is easy to forgive, but since the "company of the ungodly increases sorrow", you have to protect your soul.
I think you got shame and guilt turned around. Shame can lead to guilt or innocense, eventually to vengeance or forgiveness. First Leaf of Words of Paradise of Baha'u'llah He describes the value of a sense of shame.
What about trust?
Kindness is not nice. It is engagement at a level that can be mutually uncomfortable.
Thank you for your service.
The GOOD kind of shame basically equates to "conscience", a totally essential faculty!
If a couple has a disagrement should one of one give a make up gift to the other?
A psychologist pointed out that modern culture's theory says this would reward the undesired behavior. Would Baha'is tend to approve of the gift giving?
Psychological science regarding narcissism, response to "negative sanctions", etc. understands the difference between beneficial tolerance and entrenching, destructive indulgence. I think that is the moral of the Master's exposition: tolerance versus enabling indulgence.
Perhaps forgiveness vs victim hood.
This talk is interesting but does not provide a clear direct answer to the subject matter. The last part of the talk when she addresses the matter of victims distancing themselves from abusers and wrongdoers as a means of creating boundaries and she says that it is not permissible according to the Baha'i standards. She says the only people Baha'is can distance themselves from are covenant breakers, this is not correct and does not reflect the teachings of the Baha'i faith. It shows that she lacks a depth of understanding. It is rather clear in Baha'i teachings that followers are commanded to "eschew fellowship with the ungodly". Ungoldly here doesn't mean atheist and humanist for all people are created by God in God's image and have Gold-like qualities, but "ungodly" refers to those who are far removed from the state of "godliness", which means the wayward with selfish motives and sickness of the soul, tyrants, and thieves. When these wicked doers do not change their ways after being counseled, they have to be shunned and kindness cannot be shown to them, according to the following quotation by Shogieffendi
"We know absence of light is darkness, but no one would assert darkness was not a fact. It exists even though it is only the absence of something else. So evil exists too, and we cannot close our eyes to it, even though it is a negative existence. We must seek to supplant it by good, and if we see an evil person is not influenceable by us, then we should shun his company for it is unhealthy."
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, October 4, 1950: Spiritualism, Psychic Phenomena and Related Subjects, A Compilation from the Universal House of Justice, February 14, 1973 to National Spiritual Assemblies, in Lights of Guidance, nos. 1341, 1734)
"Kindness cannot be shown the tyrant, the deceiver, or the thief, because, far from awakening them to the error of their ways, it maketh them to continue in their perversity as before." (Selections from the Writings of `Abdu'l-Bahá pages 158-160)
However, we should be benevolent, which means we should wish them well and pursue justice as punishment might help them change their ways.
I hope these quotes provide a more direct answer to those who are searching for one.
Hello, if bahais have to pray and obey their butchers, how could bahai faith survive in a near future? If we have to die by the first murderer we meet in the street = no more bahais in the world, so the faith disappeared like the faith of zoroaster. It deeply concerns me
I think it is important however, for Baha'is to use Baha'i language and not common language that has taken on other connotations. Such as, "Privilege" takes on a Marxist, BLM meaning.(Part of Communism which Shoghi Effendi called one of the great evils.)
Yesssssss thank you. I keep seeing these buzzwords in all the Bahai media, podcasts, websites, etc. I’m starting to feel crazy being SO offput and worried by it.
Here's a challenge for all you legalese scholars, especially in America: Areas of interest Landmark supreme court case NYT vs. Sullivan 1964, viral youtube video "Simon Campbell Calls Out Pennsbury School Board During Public", and 1st amendment " First Amendment
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
You can criticize public officials (and others) without being unkind. A lot of the issue is how sensitive people are and how desperately our society wants to avoid any modicum of a feeling of shame. Shame, like any emotion, can be used for good or for bad and can get too excessive in either direction.
Correction and upholding public standards are extremely important to a virtuous society. The lack of this is why we have an explosion of not only publicly tolerated or accepted but *endorsed* degeneracy.
Now, as Bahais we’re not supposed to get involved in politics. However school boards are nonpartisan. I have spoken in front of mine and shared my thoughts before and I stuck to the ISSUE, not to people or names. If you can stick to the issues and the facts, I don’t see any reason these cases become an issue as a Bahai. In fact, I wish there were more Bahais speaking at school boards as were supposed to take education extremely seriously.
Also I’m a HUGE advocate of the first Amendment. We are very blessed to have it in this country, especially as a minority religion.
Where can I find this quote of Abdul,baha about being kind to liar....please
Is it possible to get the references or the document with quotations from the talk?
Please! I’d love to study this with my friends and community!
It’s in the description box
What are the signs of the return of Christ that you await for? Please refer me to the Bible verses so I can read them in His Holy Book .❤Thank you!
Well it was surprising to hear such logically lousy presentation of the Faith from none other than a LAWYER. Abdulbaha embraced the son of the Shah in France because he was in no position to continue harming Abdulbaha in France. Being forgiving when there is virtually no cost associated with forgiveness isn't that big of a deal. But tell me why a woman should keep forgiving an abusive husband "hundred thousand times over" if it means raising miserable children and subjecting them also to an abusive father? If you meant something else by "forgiveness", this long talk was your chance to clarify!
Sarah, Justice and Forgiveness can co-exist. In my presentation, I share a letter from the House of Justice on domestic violence and forgiveness (but there is much more available online). One can be protected and receive justice from domestic violence while also forgiving. "The Bahá'í Faith draws a very definite distinction between the duty of an individual to forgive and 'to be killed rather than to kill' and the duty of society to uphold justice. This matter is explained by 'Abdu'l-Bahá in 'Some Answered Questions'." (Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 407)
@@laylimiller-muro5190 I must thank you for your rapid response. I will certainly read the resources you mentioned and provided, but based on what I have heard so far, this is my response:
If by "Justice" you mean what is determined in the court of law, many encounters of abuse in real life do not raise to the level of litigation. In other words, in most instances, one has to personally decide if she was wronged and justice needs to be served. The teaching of better 'to be killed rather than to kill' has not much use in real life either, again, most encounter of abuse is about ongoing issues which does not include murder.
So, in case of being robbed by an acquaintance, does forgiveness mean acting like nothing happened? Or contact authorities and making sure justice is served, and forgive afterwards (which could mean many different things)?
What if I am verbally abused constantly at work or school? Does forgiveness mean acting like nothing happened? Wouldn't that encourage the abuser to continue his behavior also towards others (like what Abdulbaha predicted?)
What I am trying to convey with these examples is, that if we are to talk about the forgiveness principle in the Baha'i teachings, leaving it at the level of abstraction and implying that the bar is so high that is basically impossible to meet only adds to the guilty feeling and discouragement of the believers. If we treat our scripture like the Constitution, deriving provisions impossible to follow leads to disappointment, which could in turn lead to breaking other easier-to-follow teachings.
Layli Miller-Muro I have to say to Sarah McBeth you are absolutely right. You have a very good point Sarah. Its entirely 1 situation to be Abdu'l-Baha a 9 year old child seeing his Father dragged out of the sewage of a horrible prison Shia Chal prison in Tehran covered in excrement (which is part of Bahai history) witnessing arrest after arrest after arrests in the midst of a Holocaust of extreme danger, torture and persecution and then be Abdu'l-Baha a 68 year old man when Abdu'l-Baha is finally freely travelling in Europe free in countries where he is free to travel teach with an entourage of supportive travellers, no longer a refugee, feeling absolved with the Faith finally surviving and spreading then and knowing the son of 1 of the most opressive Tyrants is exiled and impotent to commit to the same holocaust he'd gladly still commit, but can't. When these virtue signalling desensitized Church lady karens quote Bahai Scriptures saying "we must instantly forgive them" they are like Mary Antoinette saying to the plebians' starving children "let them eat cake." Show me where in the Bahai Writings "instantly forgive them" has an actual duration of how forgiveness works and I've got a bridge to sell you.
She actually explained quite clearly that in situations such as you have mentioned, there has to be much more of a response on multiple levels depending on whether one considers the matter from the point of view of the individual, the community, or an institution.
The House of Justice has been writing letters about such scenarios since the early 90s in response to many questions much like your own.
Refer, for example, to their letter regarding domestic violence and the abuse of women and children from 1992 which began a whole series of letters in response to the statement from Universal House of Justice, since many people began to write with their own questions about the unimaginably difficult situations they faced. Now the body of guidance that we have has grown considerably. I can only urge you to listen more closely to her presentation. I think you will be more than gratified.
That said, adequately handling scenarios like those you've described requires complex and nuanced responses that do not lend themselves to simple black and white answers. Her explanations are not simple or easy to grasp on first listen, because the problems and solutions to those problems are not simple at all. It requires some very close listening.
I know when I was recovering from abuse it was very difficult for me to think about any kind of related subject abstractly. It took time and a lot of distance before inwardly I felt safe enough to begin to process and free myself from what I had faced. Had I tried to listen to the presentation she gives here before I went through that process, my own understanding of what she offers would have been very black and white, and frankly I'd have no doubt outright scolded her even more than you have done, because I just could not listen until I worked my way through all those emotions.
May God heal and protect you, and free you from the turmoil, whether you are speaking out from your own situation as the frame of reference, or pursuing justice and heightened awareness on behalf of others, I can only have the greatest respect for your advocacy, and I encourage you, if possible, to put put your anger and frustration aside even just for a short time in order to listen again.💕
@@kmanifacier Thank you so much for taking time and writing this elaborate response and ending it with kind words. I don’t know why you think if I am questioning I am angry. I might have been a bit frustrated, but definitely not angry.
Perhaps you didn’t read my response carefully either. My comment was precisely about the fact that these issues are complex and do not lend themselves to simple black and white answers! I specifically gave a few examples to reiterate the complexity of this issue.
Let me ask you this: what would a reasonable person understand from this claim, that you must forgive someone who has wronged you “hundred thousand times”? It could ONLY mean that you expose yourself to the same situation hundred thousand times, otherwise that large number of forgiving would not be necessary. Now I would understand forgiving that person once, giving them a second chance (depending on the situation), but if they wrong you again, forgive them again but at the same time avoid being exposed in the same manner. Like, continue being friends with them but don’t do business with them anymore. Or continue being friends with them but avoid being in the same room alone with them again.
But when one is asked to forgive hundred thousand times over, it basically means keep giving them chances for the rest of your life. Isn’t religion suppose to be in harmony with reason?! Tell me how this specific understanding of this teaching is reasonable?
In his 2012 Green Acre talk, Former Universal House of Justice member Ali Nakhjavani talks about an unstranslated tablet in Persian or Arabic Where Baha'u'llah says if the horribly wronged won't forgive, than Baha'u'llah won't forgive the victim for not forgiving, and I think that's B.S. until it's revealed in English. Ultimately even the Manifestation of God had to pass the Forgiveness debt on to God. Where Jesus says while being crucified: Luke "23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. " In the brutal moments of Baha'u'llah being left for dead in a world of Sh--t in the Sia Chal He had Divine intervention and could perceive a blissful Woman Angel. I doubt any of you prattling high profile influencer speaker Baha'is know a damn thing what being truly humiliated ever feels like and perceiving the kind of perpetrators who get legal impunity and are encouraged with more impunity. Amatu'l-Baha' RK was right when she said Baha'is are becoming snobs.
"Thou art like unto the pupil of the eye
which is dark in colour,
yet it is the fount of light
and the revealer of the contingent world."
-`Abdu'l-Bahá
This topic is a trigger because it is being taught by privileged Baha'is who haven't been tested. There is a big difference between Jesus or Abdu'l Baha teaching forgiveness and privileged Chrsitians or Baha'is who haven't experienced any hardship whatsoever teaching it.
Jesus said love thy neighbor as thyself. Jesus said forgive and you will be forgiven there already is a thrice Holy God we don't need a dead man. wake up it's already been said and done he just stole it from the bible. foolish people.
What is your meaning?
@@cath.lamontagne5357 Jesus is the way the truth and the life NO MAN COMES UNTO THE FATHER BUT THROUGH ME THE FIRST BOOK EVER WRITTEN BAHI IS DEAD JESUS IS ALIVE WORK IT OUT. THERE IS NO OTHER NAME GIVEN UNDER HEAVEN WHICH MAN CAN BE SAVED. IF YOU LOVE LIFE AND WANT MORE JESUS IS THE WAY NOT A DEAD MAN. GET IT. JESUS IS THE GIVER OF LIFE DON'T BE SO BLIND.
@@garyibelieve483 dear brother-believer in the Glory of God why shout at me? See Matthew 12.25. We are believers in the One True God. I pray do not seek to divide us. Why accuse the followers of the « Glory of God » of stealing His message? We attest to the truth and seek to live up to the high station that His Holiness Jesus Christ calls us to uphold see Matthew 11.25 to 11.30.
I am a christian my life is hidden in christ life eternal. I follow the one who rose from the dead and sat at the right hand of the father and ALL POWER AND GLORY WAS GIVEN UNTO HIM. You people follow a dead man so your destiny is life without Christ what your faith teaches is common sense and you got it from the Bible a dead man can't help you, Its not of works it is by faith in Jesus.
This is winning argument for exactly nobody. All of us the USA have heard this drivel our whole lives, and it certainly never made me want to be a Christian. You’re part of a dying religion, because trying to enlist people with shame and fear is not working. I will take a God who respects good works over hypocritical “faith” ANY day.
@@MissRegionRat You are deceived You are following a false prophet Jesus is the way the truth and the life simples. Bhai stole from the Bible and the Koran he is dead in the ground just like mo-ham-mad and the rest of them. Follow the one who rose from the dead you cant go wrong don't be deceived work it it out Jesus gives Salvation there is only one truth work it out you poor deceived person
@@garyibelieve483 You don’t even know the names for what you’re talking about. There is nobody named “Bhai.” And our faith “steals” no more than yours did from Judaism. You know a lot of that Old Testament bit isn’t yours, right? Genesis, Exodus, Deuteronomy, Leviticus-did you steal all those? Did Jesus steal from Moses and Malachi? Ask the Jews what they think. You’re going to talk yourself in circles.
Building on previous faiths is what we believe in just as much as you do. We’ve just added more chapters to the book than you have lately. But the biggest difference is you don’t see us going around with bizarre, condescending threats to those who don’t believe as we do.
@@MissRegionRat You are just lost religious people following a dead man Jesus is life and if you want to live you must find him bahi is dead like every one else. How dumb are you to follow a dead sinner?. Jesus is the way the truth and the life. Amen Bahi is a false prophet.
@@MissRegionRat Maybe i should say false prophet Bahola. is that better he is still a false prophet. A dead man who is a sinner like you and me can not save and that is that. Jesus rose from the dead i think he is the one we should follow. And is not his name also Bahiulla claiming to be god and the return of Jesus? Think about it he is a lier simples.