Now it's been a bit since the game came out we can finally talk spoilers, and he has a lot to say about his favorite characters and the best love story in gaming. Where do you stand on Jill, are you a lover or a hater? This ended up taking longer to put up than I wanted, just by virtue of it being so long and needing so many different clips tracking down. Not to mention Adobe continuing to be a butt. Anyway please enjoy :)
i would want a jill dlc along that cid/benedikta dlc you were talking about, both from the acts of phoenix gate and the iron kingdom, but also see her travel the continent, ngl, i wanna know more about the continent, see where those bearers was sent etc.
Jill was sidelined for the whole game. It's was really sad to see. What is the point of having mature character when she barelly interact with anybody except Clive. We need less scenes like those ones with Wade and Byron when she is completely ignored... they didn't even acknoweledged she is there. Would be amazing if we had more "lady Hana" scenes.
For what it’s worth, the head in the box mystery was actually revealed after Hugo’s death. Barnabas and his Steed overlook the scene of the crystals destruction, and they comments about how it all took place just because of one woman’s head in a box. Implying that they were the ones who did it.
yeah just realised this after a 2nd playthrough too. It's heavily implied, though easy to miss. First time I thought they were just talking about it as matter of fact, but in retrospect there isn't really any reason they would know about Benedictas head unless they were the ones to do it.
It also make more sense it was them. She was sleeping with Barnabas, too. He knew about Hugo. They were even in the same room together at the beginning of the game. Anabella would have been taking a stab in the dark.
I absolutely love everything you say about Jill. People often talk about support characters in stories, but in this case, she literally is the support for Clive. As a Dominant, Clive can do anything in terms of fighting - but as a person, he has a lot of struggles and difficulties, and that's where Jill always was, guiding him, softening his harsher word here, asking a follow up question there, gently helping him without ever making him feel lesser or trying to berate him. It is the kind of maturity I want out of not just video game romances, but fiction in general - a good, proper relationship of two people that care for each other so much that they don't just get hormonal at the first opportunity, but take their time according to who they are as people. It makes the eventual get-together that much more better. And there is no goofy, forced relationship drama either, no love triangles, no bouts of jealousy, none of that trite nonsense that writers for some reason think people want in their fiction.
Clive and Jill's romance is so well written. People often joke that Clive is a himbo and doesn't see the signs and all, but those who truly believe that are just plain wrong. Clive knows very well, shares the feelings with Jill, but none of them felt ready to commit to it because of their baggage. Only when they were pushed to a certain peek that they fully opened their hearts to each other.
agreed... people thought clive was oblivious and was dry af...which I absolutely disagree with...you could clearly see how much clive loved jill and jill loved clive but there were things to be done and that's why they both didn't consider getting together earlier...they both liked each other from the very start but thought being in a relationship wasn't the right thing when there's a war going on..ultima being around and joshua still alive... clive and jill are like my favorite ff couple next to yuna and tidus 🌙
I feel similarly about Joshua, but his death really got to me because of how very clear the brotherly love between him and Clive is. It is so apparent in the voice acting and story that it endeared me to Joshua more than I would have otherwise
I’d rather think Clive didn’t die. Got back to Jill. They had a son who they named Joshua. And the son wrote the stories from what his father told him.
The stories were Joshua's notes that hapocrates put together in a tome. The star fading was symbolic of Clive's light going out. The star being the messenger.
@@Zedword42Metia disappeared because the magic was destroyed. The book is called final fantasy, so only Clive could call it, because he pronounced this name during the battle with ultima. Simply put, at the end of the game, additional tasks hint at his survival, I doubt it was added just like that. In ff, such little things always make sense. Anyway, even if Clive is alive, I'm not happy. I want a normal ending where we will be shown all the fates of the characters. Clive, Jill, they wanted to find a new home, Gav and the rest. A very empty ending
@lavari Metia is referred to as the messenger. There's no indication that it is symbolic of their being magic in the world. It doesn't make sense for Clive to have lived given the reaction that Jill and others had to seeing the star go out. It is very clearly implied Clive is dead. Thinking otherwise is just Copium.
I’m in the copium mindset that Dion survived the final battle. Dragoons throughout final fantasy have often been tragic characters but despite what they go through they always endure. I feel like true redemption for Dion would be for him to live beyond the final battle. Dying to redeem yourself is the easy way out imo.
There wasn't a single character I disliked in this game. Except for Quintin at the start but he redeems himself in his side quests Also, pretty sure Benedictas head in the box is briefly covered in a single line of dialog, easily missed. Can't remember who said it, but pretty sure they said it was Barnabas (Ultima) trying to manipulate Hugo
@@jkranites uhm its more than an island, looks like your awareness is shot and believe me i dont enjoy being super disappointed at something I was hoping to love, but here we are.. unfortunately. Also this cliche romance everyone loves is flavor of the month, everyone will forget they even existed in like a year.
Jill ended up being my favorite character in the whole game, she was Clive's rock and really shined on her own as well. Fuckin love her. Other games need to take notes on how to write a realistic and mature love story like theirs, it was easily one of my favorite parts of the game.
I feel like a lot players and viewers literally tuned out Jill and that's why they didn't like her in general. "Why doesn't she just transform?" Did they not pay attention to what she's been forced to do for the last decade and how it's traumatized her???
The people I seen critique Jill the most or this game in general are FF7 andies, it's been the same discourse for every new game after 7, the nostalgia while I get it's a "you had to be there" which I was and get is way too dam high and flat out annoying. Go play the OG and you'll see how trope ridden the game and those characters are, especially how one note but people flip when someone says so. Jill is amazing and the relationship between her and Clive is one of the best I seen in videogames and is easy the best in the franchise besides the teen love of Yuna and Tidus. Jill is not badly written she is just underutilized, especially Odin onwards, she deserved to be on the finale imo. It's been refreshing seeing Mike go through the games without nostalgia bias and see how someone new to them reacts, on the plus side its hilarious a lot of "hardcore FF fans are just" I played 7 and 15" and think the franchise is the same as those and we have Mike who is new and has played way more than the average FF fan online lmao.
I loved Jill as a character and believed she would become the main character at some point. At most I'd say i was disappointed when she took more of a backseat once Joshua came into play. But overall she's an excellent supporting character - in the literal sense. I'd say more about the other characters but im working on my own FF16 Retrospective video at the moment... ❤
I adore Jill and her relationship with Clive. It feels so natural and healthy. They really feel like soul mates. Best couple I’ve seen in any rpg like this. I also love the aesthetic of Clive the fiery demon (Ifrit) and Jill the ice queen (Shiva) being a couple.
I would add that Byron (and Wade) also play the role of reminding the main character that before he was Ifrit, Mythos or even Cid, he was Clive Rosfield, and reconnecting him to the person he was before he was made into a weapon. Once he has processed the trauma, even though he doesn't go back to royalty status and doesn't even think to rebuild and much less rule Rosaria, he has his identity back.
I clicked this video when it was titled "Best Romance in an RPG ever" (paraphrase). Due to my schedule, I could not finish watching until the title was In DEFENSE of JILL, which actually a title was way less interested in. Had to doubletake to realize it was the same video. I loved Jill and thought she needed no defense. But, I suppose you've landed on the optimal title/title card. Thanks for the great video.
In the defense of earlier FF games. They were created for teens or younger, in a rather different time. Where characters uses more body language than facial expressions due to limited graphical fidelity. Characters & romances created then, they thrive & bloom & became favourites in many young mind. Now those minds have grown up & mature. Now they are ready for a more mature romance, like what we see in 16. These games grows with the players. And I love that about the FF series.
I know Mike has stated that this game would be lower on his teir list cause it really didn't feel like a final fantasy game. Regadless of that , personally my favorite Final fantasys are the ones with the best story and 16 has one of the best if not the best in the franchise . Thats why its in my top 2 or 3. Those being 16,6, and 10... Well and of course 14 as well.
I loved Jill, most of the criticism I see is leveled at the fact that she takes a very back row seat in the story past a certain point, and it feels she's not allowed to do anything or go anywhere.
@@Mosan13That's my exact issue with her. After her mothercrystal it was like she took a backseat in favour of Joshua to focus on the brothers' bond. Even Dion got to step up more than her despite the fact he wasn't as close with the brothers. She isn't a bad character. She's just not an amazing character.
Jill's a great character. I just don't like what they do with her in the story. She's very much a support accessory to Clive without much agency of her own.
Jill is fine for the role she plays in the story. The issue that I have with her is that she and most of the female characters exist walled off from each other mostly only interacting with "their man/men" as supporting roles for the males plot. When Clive is talking to one of the other male characters like Cid about what to do next Jill isn't asked for her opinion, nor does she volunteer it, her position is just assumed to be Clive's position. As a standalone that's fine, not every character or every story needs to have a lots of agency beyond the main character, it's just kind of disappointing because FF has had female leads and female characters who were driving actors in furtherer the main plot. Jill, Jote, Tarja, Mid, Charon, were all just kind of there for large parts of the story. Even Benedikta to a degree was reduced to a dismembered corpse merely the impetus for Hugo's feud with Clive.
@@just_radical The issue is exacerbated in Jill's case because she's the main heroine, the only female party member, and Clive's most frequent travel companion, yet she gets sidelined and relegated to the background too much for my liking. She gets the most screentime in quantity after Clive but the game doesn't make great use of it. It's just disappointing.
I looove Jill. Her and Clive are a such a good couple. It’s so unusual for characters to have an active romance in these games. One of the reasons I love FF8 as well.
Jill doesn't need a defense. Anyone who can't see what s good character she is (Kotaku) aren't worth the time. Also Jill is well damn adjusted all things considering what the hell happened to her. She easily could have became like Benedikta.
Jill's a great character. But I still didn't like the Jill/Clive romance. I prefer to interpret the end as Clive being dead, so that Jill is finally forced to be her own goddamn person instead of a support accessory for Clive.
On topic of the little girl bearer quest. The kid is 100% not at fault, they are living the life their parents taught them. She didn't know better, and you can tell that based on her reaction when Clive tells her they're dead, she cries, she realized bearers are people just like her. Clive taught her a very valuable lesson her parents would have never
I completely agree that the Jill-Clive relationship is one of the best in any video game ever. Jill was easily my favorite character especially when she killed the "father." It showed that she was still dealing with her own struggles and strong enough to do it alone. One of the criticisms that I have about FF16 is that since you only control one character in battle, it is easy to forget/ignore the strength of your companions.
I'm so baffled by this opinion. the entire game I kept hoping there'd be a branching option where you could romance either Jill or Tarja, and I 100% would have gone for Tarja. Jill had little sister vibes for me the entire game, so her winding up with Clive honestly felt kind of gross to me.
Jill was like the moon to Clive's world. She kept Clive stable and kept him going even at his lowest point. Alongside of the best female character written in entertainment like Ripley from Aliens and the recent FFXIV; Venat, aka Hydaelyn, Jill should be top along with them. For Annabella, she was an amazing antagonist. They used to very sparingly rather than adding more to hate her even more. It allowed us to fester inside of us until that eventual final meeting. It surprised me that not many people got the last second smile Annabella made before taking her own life. It signified she likes being in control. Even with her own death. Realizing her own life at her own hands, it was the last moment when she felt satisfied. You can somewhat say Annabelle was more satisfied about killing herself more than anyone.
I didn't know there was such hate on Jill. And I can't find it anything but sheer stupidity. Have we become some inundated with the Manic pixie dream girl trope, that when we have a character that's actually relatable. We scoff at them? Seriously, people need to go outside and go for a walk, or actually talk to people.
I saw a theory floating around that the Medicine Girl was supposed to be the dominant for Leviathan which is why she has such a spotlight in the story.
Regarding children - I don't blame the girl for not knowing turning to stone means death. The boy with the wolf tho. He got what he deserved. Now maybe that's because it hit close to home. I was raised in a super Evangelical family to the point that anyone of any other religion was seen as subhuman to our church and by extension me. They had fallen for Satan's temptations or whatever. That church and that part of the family are horrible. I only started to know better starting at around age 10 and then finally wasn't a bigot after 15. If it's all you know than it's hard not to be unwittingly horrible. Wish we saw that girl again. Maybe she began helping bearers after coming to understand their plight.
that is EXACTLY the problem. she's a support accessory to Clive- not her own person. If Clive were a better man, he'd stay away from her and let her forge her own path.
@@Keira_BlackstoneShe is not an accessory. Idk how anyone came up with that. She decided she needed to go to drake’s breath, not clive. He chose to go with her. By your logic, any woman in a healthy relationship is “just an accessory”. She did forge her own path. She chose to be there for someone she cares about, who means the world to her.
@@omegaxtrigun I'm not gonna call Jill an accessory, and I enjoy her romance with Clive to a degree, but the issue is that she just gets relegated to the background too much for my liking. She has a decent arc with the Iron Kingdom but gets almost no other interesting content outside of that and her relationship with Clive. She gets captured twice, sits out major battles after the Iron Kingdom, doesn't really have any meaningful interactions with anyone outside Clive, not even with Joshua. As a result, she just feels underutilized as her own character overall.
This is great take and I mostly agree. I'm a single guy but even I knew this relationship was the most natural I've seen in a game. It wasn't forced nor was it cringe. Classic anime troupe is the main male protaganist is infuriatingly indecisiveness never has a conclusion. Other times the protag is a creep. In both times the women are all over him. I lol'd hard when you mentioned about older games being responsible for these bad takes and might as well throw anime into the mix.
God yes. It was fucking PERFECT. In the stables, Jill made that half step. That is how relationships work. You show a very small opening and see what the other person does. It is a dance. If you do step 1 and they don't do step 1, you back assuming they aren't interested. Also, sometimes people are stuck in their head. It was fantastic.
Defense of Jill? What's wrong with her? Who disliked her? Wtf? The only issue I had is her not accompanying him in the very end going to Origin with Joshua and Dion
It makes too much sense why she didn't go. Not only was she heading towards being Blighted by using her powers too much, but she gave Shiva to Clive and their last mission was a suicide mission from the beginning (even though Clive is still alive). She just wouldn't have been able to do much if she did in her state unfortunately. It would have been cool, but it would have been stupid if they allowed her to go all things considered.
A lot of people don't like that she is a tool for Clive's development and she effectively gets fridge something Maehiro the writer has done one too many times. Japanese Sexism.
@@Zoeila How is she just a tool for Clives developement when she has her own arc where Clive returns the favor and helps her through her problems as well. Did you guys not play the game? Have you never had a relationship before? They literally helped each other throughout the whole story...
@@F34RDSoldier805 Dion also had his powers "shared" to Clive, yet he went to Origin and even primed as well, this was no excuse for Jill not going, at least partially.
The thing with the kids and bearers are an old, OLD debate in psychology between nature vs nurture. IIRC the consensus is that kids tend to inherit personality and behavioral quirks from the parents naturally, but things such as morals and ideology are taught.
Jill's the Iron Kingdom's Cid, except she's even worse used than him. Cid at least was a respected commander fighting for his country of his own free will. By the start of the story, both of them were severely weakened. Cid lost to Benedikta, the weakest enemy Eikon, and Jill could barely hold back Liquid Flame. Both had started to turn to stone and would likely be ordered by Jarta to avoid magic. In short, to have Jill jump into the fray of battle or an Eikon fight like many would like would be inconsistent with the logic of the story. She's not written to be the false bravado type to throw herself into a battle she knows could kill her. In fact, the only time she did that was to save Clive against Barnabas. Sure I would love more questing with Jill, but people act like she's left behind for no reason. Let's not forget, being left behind also usually involved her watching over the backline when Clive & co went to the frontline.
I think so many people miss the point that Jill has disassociated in order to mentally deal with what she was forced to do, and what she went through. Her primary story arc is dealing with it, and it’s done extremely well.
Exactly, and as far as female leads in FF go, she's definitely up there too. The kind of things that critics of Jill's character accuse her of (being reduced to a "support for Clive", having no agency of her own, getting sidelined too much) are more fit for another female FF lead, You know, the one that got ruined by bad writing. I'm looking at you, Lunafreya.
@@gnw_AstA Definitely, the fact that Jill and Clive both were able to have story arcs that felt well-realized and complete makes me unbelievably happy. This feels like the first FF that there’s really not something iffy regarding the characters and story. It’s all really well done.
@@cambienvenu People rationalize the game's disappointing treatment of Jill using her backstory, which technically does "make some sense", but imo the story takes it too far. Jill doesn't talk enough or have meaningful interactions with any characters outside Clive, not even Joshua? It feels like she's just there in the background a lot of the time? You say it's because she disassociated as a result of her Iron Kingdom trauma. Jill's Shiva appearances are underwhelming? It's cuz her Iron Kingdom trauma made her weaker from the curse. Jill gets sidelined after her Iron Kingdom arc, sits out Dhalmekia, sits out the Bahamut fight, sits out Ash/Waloed, sits out the final battle? It's cuz her Iron Kingdom trauma made her weaker from the curse. Overall, Jill gets almost no significant content after her Iron Kingdom arc outside her relationship with Clive? It's cuz of the aforementioned sidelining which, again, is excused because of the curse's spread. On top of that, Jill even gets captured twice? For me, it's too much. Ultimately, regardless of narrative rationalizations, the end result is still the same: Jill feels underutilized and lacks active presence too much for my liking. It's a writing decision that I don't really appreciate when Jill is the main heroine and only female party member.
@@brendanlee369 it's been interesting to me to see the difference in how men and women react to Jill.. overall I've seen much more positive reaction to her from men, calling her mature and strong. Women have said she's sidelined in all the ways you mentioned. Very interesting.
@@pridefall3304 I can't really speak on that, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's true as a trend. Funny thing is that I'm a man lol. It's frustrating because Jill had a lot of potential on paper, but much of it ended up being squandered... she really deserved better.
Jill is a great character. She is just underutilized, tragically so. That is why there has been so much uproar over her story; not because people didn't like her, but because they did and didn't get to see anywhere near as much of her as they would've liked.
She is but a lot of the critique is indeed that she "isn't Tifa or Aerith" I seen someone say that she is worst than Rinoa and I just can't process that much idiocy.
I don't really agree. She's literally fighting along side you in your party for most of the story after she wakes up all the way until you reunite with Joshua. That's around the same time she gets taken by Odin and then gives up her power and can't really use her magic as well or prime without risk of losing control. There's even an entire arc of the story where you go confront her demons and kill her tormentor. She's a supporting character that does pretty much exactly what she needs to. This isn't FFX where the main character is Tidus but the story is really equally or even more so about Yuna and her journey. The story is about Clive and the two fire eikons and the people and relationships that got him where he needed to go.
In what ways was she ever underutilised? Plot wise she is single biggest factor for how Clive can overcome most of the practical limitations that would otherwise be placed upon him, or simply kill him. She's there for Living Flame to hold the lava back, helps you get to the crystal in the first place by helping you through the most direct path, saves Clive from dying under the ocean, and is one of the very last Dominants to lose their power, besides Barnabus (who's crystal still existed at the time) and Joshua (who had said he would not relinquish Phoenix), and she is the very first display of Eikon vs Eikon outside of the opening Phoenix vs Ifrit scene where she manages to hold her own against Titan of all things. She has reports, sidequests, and unique VO dedicated to supporting her own story. You spend a whole segment of the game traveling back to the place where she was abused and enslaved to let her murder the person responsible. She gets ample screen time, second only to Joshua who is Phoenix for the vast part of his involvement, Jill barely ever primes so her dialogue is almost always contextually conversational and not 'battle antics'. This is just such a straight up lie. The backlash is because people saw she was shy and meek and that she gets captured for all of 20 minutes and suddenly she is another example of women in media being objectified as a plot device ala damsel in distress. Benedikta ruined Jill's chance at being a fan favourite because everyone loves the strong badass women, and never the genuinely fantastic (and let's be real - more realistic) depiction of a human being.
I was certain and am still certain that Medecine Girl is Leviathan, and that we'll have a DLC about that. I know Leviathan and Alexander are both Eikons Yoshida wished he could have done so I expect a Cid DLC, but after that I wouldn't be surprised if we get a Leviathan/Alexander with time shenanigan leading to an alternate ending, probably to cap off the game, the same way the Ignis DLC did with XV.
First, Great Video. It's probably my favorite ff16 story and character analysis on youtube so far. As for DLC, I was thinking of episode Cid but forgot Benedikta played a role in some of that so and Episode Cid and Benedikta. Another is Leviathan, the lost. My last one is probably not going to happen. It is a Royal Edition to the game, making improvements on aspects of the game people felt that it lacked, such as exploration and crafting, as well as adding status ailments and elemental weaknesses. I love this game to bits and is like in my top 5 FFs. I would love to see it improved further.
Ultima: Your body wont survive the cast Clive: Im going to cast the spell even if it kills me *Wakes up on beach with no magic, nobody around and while the curse spreads* Preach: Why do people think Clive is dead?
42:35 I believe it’s clarified at some point that Barnabas and Sleipnir orchestrated delivering Benedikta’s head to Hugo to manipulate him (which Waloed has been doing for a long time anyway), which is of course by Ultima’s design in extension. After which, as you recalled, ultima can then use her likeness as an illusion to further stir Hugo to lose himself in his vengeance against Clive.
Jill and Dion were so damn interesting and awesome, and they were both done so dirty by the story... Out there somewhere there is a version of this game that is an actual RPG with an actual party, and we get to have both of them impact the story more directly.
16:30 Though Anabella is not directly influenced by Ultima, she totally follows the purpose Ultima set out for humanity: To breed the superior body for Him. In that sense Anabella is not the puppet of the being Ultima, but a puppet of the pattern of evil (for example the pattern of "power destroying relationships") that Ultima personifies.
Agree with everything i did not mind Jill at all. Loved Benedikta and her evil a dlc there would be nice true. But Dion i would say was my favorite as Ultima literally made him go insane against his his morals etc. Great game cannot wait for PC version as i do not own a PS 5.
Jill is a wonderful character for plenty of reasons, I just love how I know immediately a big chunk of people that dislike Jill are just your typical hardcore FF7 stans and it makes it easier to brush off.
I feel like Joshua kinda gets overlooked because he isn't as flashy as other characters in the game, but he's also damn well written. A little sad he doesn't get appreciated as much. Also sidenote: While the ending is ambiguous for a reason, there's plenty of evidence that Joshua isn't dead either, one of the core evidence being a very integral part of the main scenario leading to the ending.
Agree with you totally except for Mid. I didn't hate Mid. I did think they sorta just swept over her dad's death and how that affected her. I mean the first time we see her in the game she is all smiles. That doesn't really sit well when in our playing time, her dad died not too long ago. But, I absolutely love her accent. Best accent in the game. You being English I'm sure it's no big deal to you. And maybe, they even got it wrong. Me being an ignorant American, I thought it was great.
Well medicine girl is obviously leviathan the lost one. That’s why she was everywhere when things were falling apart. No one knows what happened to leviathan but what if leviathan was just chillin hiding in the sidelines watching and hoping Clive succeeds in ending magic so he could finally die
I can't believe people thought that Jill, who is a literally ice queen, Shiva, is a bit distant. And that she is only able to open up when she is close to Clive, who is literally fire, Ifrit. This is one of the few times I thought Square was VERY blunt with their story. But apparently not blunt enough.
It’s Middle Ages technology Despite what Game of Thrones tells everyone, in a world without condoms, there is a LOT less premarital sex. I do think the five year time skip is a little much because they literally do nothing as far as the plot goes for five years before rushing through and smashing every other Crystal inside of two weeks, but that plot hole is for everything, not just the relationship
Ultima is called Ultima because: 1: The Ifrit Risen body is actually patterned off Ultima Weapon from 7 and 14 and other games in terms of design (not so much 6) in that winged monster deal. 2: His own final forms are similar to some of the forms Ultimecia has, thus making Ultimalius a variation of that and reference. 3: Ultima is also the big destructive magic that comes up often in the games, either as the biggest spell or as some macguffin, as early as 2.
Also, because director Hiroshi Minagawa has made an Eldrich deal with Ultima itself to include it as the big bad in every game he works on. When Joshua said it's name I was like, yup, that sounds about right, lol
The funny thing about the child with her Chloe, is that it's not even the parent's fault either. As it's the system of treating bearers as tools itself that is at fault. All because said tools are too useful to not be treated as such.
Great video, Jill does not need defending, she's a fantastic character who shows nothing short of the makings of a hero. THe only people making complaints about jil are the types that were bitching about diversity. In other words they were never going to like this game. Its easy to pick things apart when you go in with hate. And lets face it Jill flies in the face of everything these journalist praise in writing of female characters.
I really thought there was gonna be a last hour twist where Medicine Girl was Leviathan, because otherwise I was very confused why she was just everywhere.
I'm actually surprised Jill is so divisive among the fandom. I thought characterization to be one the game's strongest and unique among the women of final fantasy. She's pretty much a slave her whole life who forcibly shuts off her emotion when she commits all those horrible war crimes to the point of wanting to die.
You said bearers were kinda left out at end of game, but I don't feel they were. I think the whole side quest with lubor (however you spell it) was for example an end game quest that was deeply bearer oriented when you find out he was a bearer and immediately went from leader to garbage in eyes of his OWN people and you go through a series of quests and events that ultimately results in his friends (kids) literally taking a rock for him and it shocks the adults of village to point they're repulsed by their own actions. There are also interactions here and htere that reference too of man and bearer working side by side. The scene with his uncle fighting akkashic with the old general and the they mention how bearers and solders stand united and it only took basically the end of the world for that to happen. So I don't think the point about bearers being side stepped late game is entirely accurate if you did side quests and see that they used a subtlety but a strong one to show around the world that it wasn't man vs bearer anymore, it was man and bearer vs survival and they must unite or fall.
My objection to the commentary on relationships in video games is that it equates a few different things: relationships that are healthy and mature, relationships that make for good stories, and relationships that are realistic. I agree that most romantic relationships in video games aren't the first of those, but that doesn't actually say much with respect to the second and third points. They can be all three of those things (and I agree that Clive and Jill are), but they don't have to be. Yen's personality is pretty unappealing and her romance with Geralt has a lot of issues, but I do find their interactions pretty compelling. Similarly Tidus and Yuna are very obviously two teenagers, and like a lot of romances between teenagers theirs is clearly not the most mature and grounded, but that doesn't make it unrealistic.
The more I think on it, the more I couldn’t disagree more with the notion of Clive’s simplicity as a character, that he’s a “blunt object.” Is Clive the sharpest tool in the shed? No, but that also doesn’t make him stupid, nor does it make him deep and complex. Consider that Clive goes through important growth, perpetuated from his own internal struggles and realizations. Clive makes specific and distinct choices to grow and adapt given his circumstances. It’s Clive that emotionally recognizes and overcomes his initial grief of being the Second Dominant of Fire. He admits his own choices to run from the truth and blame others, and without anyone prompting him to confront this, he does so on his own. He admits he was wrong and how to press forward, admitting to the truths he is cognizant of. Look too how immediately after, he offers a worthwhile and insightful solution to Cid’s determination to make a place where “people can die on their own terms” but rather a place where they “can live on their own terms.” It’s not only a better solution, but it’s also reflective of Clive’s own revelations. Instead of only seeking death, vengeance, or violence, he chooses life. Yes, he continues to fight, he’s not the most tactical, but he is also acutely aware of how the world works. He knows you can’t just become a pacifist over night and expect the world you want to build will come about without issues. Nobody ever really needs to point Clive in the right direction, he makes his own choices and they are based on what he has realized about himself after experiencing unnatural trauma and death in his life. Most people would have embraced a life of death and destruction without recognizing the truth, or even if they did, they’d press on anyway out of anger and pain. Clive is much more dynamic and strong on an emotional intelligence level than what this “blunt tool” argument. He may not be a genius or extremely articulate, but he displays growth and adaptability to extreme events far better than most.
Its pretty obvious Clive survived (imo), but tbh, it bothers me how they ended it knowing that. I doubt this will happen, but I would love an epilogue DLC with Clive coming back from the final fight. Think The witcher 3 Blood and Wine.
People have already said this, but I'll repeat it anyway: I feel like it was Barnabas' ploy (and Waloed's) to put Benedikta's head in the box to set Hugo against Cid. For one, Barnabas as a character-at least in the latter part of the game-is established to see his kingdom, his people, and his soldiers as a means to his master's end, in order to bring about that promised land and new world order. Benedikta certainly fit that bill, and was tragically loyal to a fault. It wouldn't even surprise me if her seducing Hugo and putting the delusions of grandeur in his head were also a ploy of Barnabas to have formidable Dominant (and Eikon) in their pocket for whatever purpose or design they had for him-with Benedikta pulling his strings, but it's Barnabas' plans she's putting into motion. Setting Hugo against Cid and the Hideaway seems like it would fit the bill of one of those plans. EDIT: Also, Medicine Girl gave me Arya Stark vibes-especially considering that Game of Thrones was something of an inspiration for the team
The DLC I want to see is "The Bastards", clives time as an Imperial soldier and then assassin slave. Why did they care for each other and give each other codenames? Show their bond and how Clive's desire for revenge kept him going. If you wanted, you could make it an entire in-the-past DLC with Cid/Benedicta, Dion & Dad, etc.
This is what I was thinking. There’s no places to go post credits given how the game ended. However, there is a lot of time in between time skips and this could allow for more fleshed out aspects of Clive’s story
Not the child's fault. I've seen the opinion that Clive was too harsh with that girl. But I couldn't disagree more. I used to have an opinion on something not quite so serious, because that's what the media taught as I was growing up. It took tough love from my partner to tell me that was wrong, for me to see. Now, that little girl has been informed, and it might be something that sticks with her as she grows, and she can decide where she stands from there.
The reason destroying the crystal makes things worse because they we’re balancing each others pull of the aether. Destroying one cause the aether to be drawn to the others at an increased rate. This is why the north was completely lost to the blight, its crystal was destroyed and all its aether siphoned south. The aether floods later in the game are also a result of aether being pulled from the ground. Cid was right about the crystals absorbing aether, but was wrong about them causing the blight. In a way they were protecting them FROM the blight. Also, it was barabas that sent the head. He was orchestrating events to push us into conflict with the other dominants the whole game in order to complete the vessel.
I love Jill. I think people expected her to be more in your face since people see her as the main heroine. But she's more reserved and that is natural when you consider her upbringing and her baggage. The romance between her and Clive is the best in series for me, due to it being very natural and it involves two people well into adulthood. Which can't be said for the most of the series.
Jill was literally capture by the iron kingdom since she was a child, probably torture, they would kill children if she didn’t kill other people, and some fans blame her for been distant, I feel like people before criticize a character, they need to put themselves in their shoes
People point out that the game looks like it has a bad ending if you don't do the sidequests, but the same ending looks like a good ending if you have. It's a very interesting method of ending a story and I wonder how things will go with CBU3 and single player games in the future.
Gav is probably my favorite character though. He's the best friend everyone wants yet so few of us seem to have. I loved Mid, like Byron she is a rare light in this incredibly dark world. Dion was extremely well done, but yet for as good as he was, it was Joshua's death that really broke me. I have a younger brother that is almost the same age difference to me as Clive and Joshua are to each other. Everything about their bond, I felt deeply. Its a true testament to the brilliant performance by Ben Starr that you feel every ounce of that grief, pain and loss when Joshua dies. Medicine Girl is great, I suspect she might be Leviathan's dominant.
before I see the video, I kinda see where both sides are coming from, but I'm fundamentally pro-jill here. She's fantastic, when she's on screen. But the game being structured firmly around Clive means that every supporting character gets "their" chapter where they're doing stuff and have agency and then they just chill outside of "their" chapter.
I stopped part way through the video, you convinced me to get the game when it comes out on PC. I was already interested in the combat but your impression of the story was amazing.
that's the most reasonable interpretation imo. I honestly thought it was a neat plot device for the heroes to be framed for a crime they 100% committed lol.
Fucking thank you. The first genuine and heartfelt relationship and people scoff at that shit while clutching their waifus. The age old saying goes, “Your waifu is trash.”
Everybody mad is just weebs annoyed that it isn't hyper anime. It's always the same kind of comments ad verbatim. The game has flaws for sure but the ones thrown around ain't it.
I think people thought Clive was dead because an article came out like 3 days after the game was out saying he was dead by people who skipped all the side quests to get to the ending and thus had no context.
To me the game is just way more than the sum of its parts. I had so many little problems with it while I was playing it but when I think back on the game Its nothing but good feelings. Keep going CBU3.
Now it's been a bit since the game came out we can finally talk spoilers, and he has a lot to say about his favorite characters and the best love story in gaming. Where do you stand on Jill, are you a lover or a hater?
This ended up taking longer to put up than I wanted, just by virtue of it being so long and needing so many different clips tracking down. Not to mention Adobe continuing to be a butt. Anyway please enjoy :)
Absolutely a lover!!! Jill deserves so much better! From the story and the Fanbase
Jill was so great. I only wish we had more Shiva as well!
jill lover 100%
i would want a jill dlc along that cid/benedikta dlc you were talking about, both from the acts of phoenix gate and the iron kingdom, but also see her travel the continent, ngl, i wanna know more about the continent, see where those bearers was sent etc.
Jill was sidelined for the whole game. It's was really sad to see. What is the point of having mature character when she barelly interact with anybody except Clive. We need less scenes like those ones with Wade and Byron when she is completely ignored... they didn't even acknoweledged she is there. Would be amazing if we had more "lady Hana" scenes.
For what it’s worth, the head in the box mystery was actually revealed after Hugo’s death. Barnabas and his Steed overlook the scene of the crystals destruction, and they comments about how it all took place just because of one woman’s head in a box. Implying that they were the ones who did it.
Yeah the soldier that delivered the head was a Waloeder. The people she was loyal to ended up using her corpse as a tool to aggro Kupka.
True story.
yeah just realised this after a 2nd playthrough too. It's heavily implied, though easy to miss. First time I thought they were just talking about it as matter of fact, but in retrospect there isn't really any reason they would know about Benedictas head unless they were the ones to do it.
It also make more sense it was them. She was sleeping with Barnabas, too. He knew about Hugo. They were even in the same room together at the beginning of the game. Anabella would have been taking a stab in the dark.
I absolutely love everything you say about Jill. People often talk about support characters in stories, but in this case, she literally is the support for Clive. As a Dominant, Clive can do anything in terms of fighting - but as a person, he has a lot of struggles and difficulties, and that's where Jill always was, guiding him, softening his harsher word here, asking a follow up question there, gently helping him without ever making him feel lesser or trying to berate him.
It is the kind of maturity I want out of not just video game romances, but fiction in general - a good, proper relationship of two people that care for each other so much that they don't just get hormonal at the first opportunity, but take their time according to who they are as people. It makes the eventual get-together that much more better. And there is no goofy, forced relationship drama either, no love triangles, no bouts of jealousy, none of that trite nonsense that writers for some reason think people want in their fiction.
So true. When she ran after Clive when he flew to fight Ultima, it was actually heartbreaking.
I love how Clive didn't sugarcoat it to the kid. He gave it to her out right. I loved that.
Clive and Jill's romance is so well written. People often joke that Clive is a himbo and doesn't see the signs and all, but those who truly believe that are just plain wrong. Clive knows very well, shares the feelings with Jill, but none of them felt ready to commit to it because of their baggage. Only when they were pushed to a certain peek that they fully opened their hearts to each other.
agreed... people thought clive was oblivious and was dry af...which I absolutely disagree with...you could clearly see how much clive loved jill and jill loved clive but there were things to be done and that's why they both didn't consider getting together earlier...they both liked each other from the very start but thought being in a relationship wasn't the right thing when there's a war going on..ultima being around and joshua still alive...
clive and jill are like my favorite ff couple next to yuna and tidus 🌙
I feel similarly about Joshua, but his death really got to me because of how very clear the brotherly love between him and Clive is. It is so apparent in the voice acting and story that it endeared me to Joshua more than I would have otherwise
I’d rather think Clive didn’t die. Got back to Jill. They had a son who they named Joshua. And the son wrote the stories from what his father told him.
The stories were Joshua's notes that hapocrates put together in a tome. The star fading was symbolic of Clive's light going out. The star being the messenger.
@@Zedword42Metia disappeared because the magic was destroyed. The book is called final fantasy, so only Clive could call it, because he pronounced this name during the battle with ultima. Simply put, at the end of the game, additional tasks hint at his survival, I doubt it was added just like that. In ff, such little things always make sense. Anyway, even if Clive is alive, I'm not happy. I want a normal ending where we will be shown all the fates of the characters. Clive, Jill, they wanted to find a new home, Gav and the rest. A very empty ending
@lavari Metia is referred to as the messenger. There's no indication that it is symbolic of their being magic in the world. It doesn't make sense for Clive to have lived given the reaction that Jill and others had to seeing the star go out. It is very clearly implied Clive is dead. Thinking otherwise is just Copium.
"Clive is not dead, he's a rock"
- Lisette
😂
I’m in the copium mindset that Dion survived the final battle. Dragoons throughout final fantasy have often been tragic characters but despite what they go through they always endure. I feel like true redemption for Dion would be for him to live beyond the final battle. Dying to redeem yourself is the easy way out imo.
There wasn't a single character I disliked in this game. Except for Quintin at the start but he redeems himself in his side quests
Also, pretty sure Benedictas head in the box is briefly covered in a single line of dialog, easily missed. Can't remember who said it, but pretty sure they said it was Barnabas (Ultima) trying to manipulate Hugo
Jill is a fantastic character and the rapport between her and Clive it’s something you rarely see in video games nowadays
Best couple in final fantasy
Too bad the game itself was mid
@@elpisdynamis1617 enjoy that island
@@jkranites uhm its more than an island, looks like your awareness is shot and believe me i dont enjoy being super disappointed at something I was hoping to love, but here we are.. unfortunately. Also this cliche romance everyone loves is flavor of the month, everyone will forget they even existed in like a year.
@@jkranites also if you think this is top tier romance, you need to be playing other games, not @ ing me
@@elpisdynamis1617No it’s definitely an island. A pretty loud one. But still an island.
Jill ended up being my favorite character in the whole game, she was Clive's rock and really shined on her own as well. Fuckin love her. Other games need to take notes on how to write a realistic and mature love story like theirs, it was easily one of my favorite parts of the game.
I feel like a lot players and viewers literally tuned out Jill and that's why they didn't like her in general. "Why doesn't she just transform?" Did they not pay attention to what she's been forced to do for the last decade and how it's traumatized her???
Medicine Girl and Dion were my 2 favorite characters. I'd want spinoffs, DLC or a 16-2 playing one of them.
Calmatives, Curatives, Restoratives!
The people I seen critique Jill the most or this game in general are FF7 andies, it's been the same discourse for every new game after 7, the nostalgia while I get it's a "you had to be there" which I was and get is way too dam high and flat out annoying. Go play the OG and you'll see how trope ridden the game and those characters are, especially how one note but people flip when someone says so.
Jill is amazing and the relationship between her and Clive is one of the best I seen in videogames and is easy the best in the franchise besides the teen love of Yuna and Tidus. Jill is not badly written she is just underutilized, especially Odin onwards, she deserved to be on the finale imo. It's been refreshing seeing Mike go through the games without nostalgia bias and see how someone new to them reacts, on the plus side its hilarious a lot of "hardcore FF fans are just" I played 7 and 15" and think the franchise is the same as those and we have Mike who is new and has played way more than the average FF fan online lmao.
Jill was fantastic, Byron and Gav were absolute standouts.
I was bored by all of them. Well, I guess Byron was funny at times.
Byron was the only interesting character for me.
I loved Jill as a character and believed she would become the main character at some point. At most I'd say i was disappointed when she took more of a backseat once Joshua came into play.
But overall she's an excellent supporting character - in the literal sense.
I'd say more about the other characters but im working on my own FF16 Retrospective video at the moment... ❤
I adore Jill and her relationship with Clive. It feels so natural and healthy. They really feel like soul mates. Best couple I’ve seen in any rpg like this.
I also love the aesthetic of Clive the fiery demon (Ifrit) and Jill the ice queen (Shiva) being a couple.
cidolfus, esp with that voice actor, is imo one of the best characters we had in the entire series
Cid’s voice (I dig Ineson) is basically what got me to play this at all
It was such a trip playing Diablo 4 then jumping into FF16 and hearing that voice again.
Glad to see he's getting work though, his voice is amazing.
Medicine Girl! My Fiancée and I was hoping Dion and Terence would adopt her the whole latter part of the game 🥰
I would add that Byron (and Wade) also play the role of reminding the main character that before he was Ifrit, Mythos or even Cid, he was Clive Rosfield, and reconnecting him to the person he was before he was made into a weapon. Once he has processed the trauma, even though he doesn't go back to royalty status and doesn't even think to rebuild and much less rule Rosaria, he has his identity back.
Joshua and Mid deserve respect!
I clicked this video when it was titled "Best Romance in an RPG ever" (paraphrase). Due to my schedule, I could not finish watching until the title was In DEFENSE of JILL, which actually a title was way less interested in. Had to doubletake to realize it was the same video. I loved Jill and thought she needed no defense. But, I suppose you've landed on the optimal title/title card. Thanks for the great video.
In the defense of earlier FF games. They were created for teens or younger, in a rather different time. Where characters uses more body language than facial expressions due to limited graphical fidelity. Characters & romances created then, they thrive & bloom & became favourites in many young mind. Now those minds have grown up & mature. Now they are ready for a more mature romance, like what we see in 16. These games grows with the players. And I love that about the FF series.
There is nothing subtle about ass sniffing in 9 or Cloud telling Tifa that he will sleep better after banging her with an uniendo lmao.
I know Mike has stated that this game would be lower on his teir list cause it really didn't feel like a final fantasy game. Regadless of that , personally my favorite Final fantasys are the ones with the best story and 16 has one of the best if not the best in the franchise . Thats why its in my top 2 or 3. Those being 16,6, and 10... Well and of course 14 as well.
In defense? People hate her? Why? She's great.
I loved Jill, most of the criticism I see is leveled at the fact that she takes a very back row seat in the story past a certain point, and it feels she's not allowed to do anything or go anywhere.
@@Mosan13That's my exact issue with her. After her mothercrystal it was like she took a backseat in favour of Joshua to focus on the brothers' bond. Even Dion got to step up more than her despite the fact he wasn't as close with the brothers.
She isn't a bad character. She's just not an amazing character.
Jill's a great character. I just don't like what they do with her in the story. She's very much a support accessory to Clive without much agency of her own.
Jill is fine for the role she plays in the story. The issue that I have with her is that she and most of the female characters exist walled off from each other mostly only interacting with "their man/men" as supporting roles for the males plot. When Clive is talking to one of the other male characters like Cid about what to do next Jill isn't asked for her opinion, nor does she volunteer it, her position is just assumed to be Clive's position.
As a standalone that's fine, not every character or every story needs to have a lots of agency beyond the main character, it's just kind of disappointing because FF has had female leads and female characters who were driving actors in furtherer the main plot. Jill, Jote, Tarja, Mid, Charon, were all just kind of there for large parts of the story. Even Benedikta to a degree was reduced to a dismembered corpse merely the impetus for Hugo's feud with Clive.
@@just_radical The issue is exacerbated in Jill's case because she's the main heroine, the only female party member, and Clive's most frequent travel companion, yet she gets sidelined and relegated to the background too much for my liking. She gets the most screentime in quantity after Clive but the game doesn't make great use of it. It's just disappointing.
Jill swording up on Annabella was hilarious lmao
I looove Jill. Her and Clive are a such a good couple. It’s so unusual for characters to have an active romance in these games. One of the reasons I love FF8 as well.
God yes, its creeps me the fuck out how infantilized the love interests are in most of these games.
Jill doesn't need a defense. Anyone who can't see what s good character she is (Kotaku) aren't worth the time.
Also Jill is well damn adjusted all things considering what the hell happened to her. She easily could have became like Benedikta.
Jill's a great character. But I still didn't like the Jill/Clive romance. I prefer to interpret the end as Clive being dead, so that Jill is finally forced to be her own goddamn person instead of a support accessory for Clive.
@@Keira_Blackstoneeven though what Jill wants is to be with Clive?
@@Keira_BlackstoneJesus stop shoving your independent woman narrative down this poor girls throat
On topic of the little girl bearer quest. The kid is 100% not at fault, they are living the life their parents taught them. She didn't know better, and you can tell that based on her reaction when Clive tells her they're dead, she cries, she realized bearers are people just like her. Clive taught her a very valuable lesson her parents would have never
I completely agree that the Jill-Clive relationship is one of the best in any video game ever. Jill was easily my favorite character especially when she killed the "father." It showed that she was still dealing with her own struggles and strong enough to do it alone. One of the criticisms that I have about FF16 is that since you only control one character in battle, it is easy to forget/ignore the strength of your companions.
I'm so baffled by this opinion. the entire game I kept hoping there'd be a branching option where you could romance either Jill or Tarja, and I 100% would have gone for Tarja. Jill had little sister vibes for me the entire game, so her winding up with Clive honestly felt kind of gross to me.
@@Keira_BlackstoneIn no way has the game showed a sister dynamic between the two. It's just your pre assumption going to into the game.
@@Keira_Blackstonethat’s your own weird preconceptions that you need to fix yourself. The game never makes you feel that way
Jill was like the moon to Clive's world. She kept Clive stable and kept him going even at his lowest point. Alongside of the best female character written in entertainment like Ripley from Aliens and the recent FFXIV; Venat, aka Hydaelyn, Jill should be top along with them.
For Annabella, she was an amazing antagonist. They used to very sparingly rather than adding more to hate her even more. It allowed us to fester inside of us until that eventual final meeting. It surprised me that not many people got the last second smile Annabella made before taking her own life. It signified she likes being in control. Even with her own death. Realizing her own life at her own hands, it was the last moment when she felt satisfied. You can somewhat say Annabelle was more satisfied about killing herself more than anyone.
I didn't know there was such hate on Jill. And I can't find it anything but sheer stupidity. Have we become some inundated with the Manic pixie dream girl trope, that when we have a character that's actually relatable. We scoff at them? Seriously, people need to go outside and go for a walk, or actually talk to people.
I saw a theory floating around that the Medicine Girl was supposed to be the dominant for Leviathan which is why she has such a spotlight in the story.
Nice tie in... Just finished the game and I was thinking that the dlc will include leviathan, s/he was mentioned but never appeared so mayhaps
Regarding children - I don't blame the girl for not knowing turning to stone means death. The boy with the wolf tho. He got what he deserved.
Now maybe that's because it hit close to home. I was raised in a super Evangelical family to the point that anyone of any other religion was seen as subhuman to our church and by extension me. They had fallen for Satan's temptations or whatever. That church and that part of the family are horrible. I only started to know better starting at around age 10 and then finally wasn't a bigot after 15. If it's all you know than it's hard not to be unwittingly horrible.
Wish we saw that girl again. Maybe she began helping bearers after coming to understand their plight.
Jill is the supportive side character that Clive needs.
that is EXACTLY the problem. she's a support accessory to Clive- not her own person. If Clive were a better man, he'd stay away from her and let her forge her own path.
@@Keira_BlackstoneShe is not an accessory. Idk how anyone came up with that. She decided she needed to go to drake’s breath, not clive. He chose to go with her.
By your logic, any woman in a healthy relationship is “just an accessory”.
She did forge her own path. She chose to be there for someone she cares about, who means the world to her.
@@Keira_Blackstonewhat you said about what Clive should do sounds like it's in a cliche romance novel.
@@omegaxtrigun I'm not gonna call Jill an accessory, and I enjoy her romance with Clive to a degree, but the issue is that she just gets relegated to the background too much for my liking. She has a decent arc with the Iron Kingdom but gets almost no other interesting content outside of that and her relationship with Clive. She gets captured twice, sits out major battles after the Iron Kingdom, doesn't really have any meaningful interactions with anyone outside Clive, not even with Joshua. As a result, she just feels underutilized as her own character overall.
This is great take and I mostly agree. I'm a single guy but even I knew this relationship was the most natural I've seen in a game. It wasn't forced nor was it cringe. Classic anime troupe is the main male protaganist is infuriatingly indecisiveness never has a conclusion. Other times the protag is a creep. In both times the women are all over him. I lol'd hard when you mentioned about older games being responsible for these bad takes and might as well throw anime into the mix.
God yes. It was fucking PERFECT. In the stables, Jill made that half step. That is how relationships work. You show a very small opening and see what the other person does. It is a dance. If you do step 1 and they don't do step 1, you back assuming they aren't interested.
Also, sometimes people are stuck in their head.
It was fantastic.
Defense of Jill? What's wrong with her? Who disliked her? Wtf? The only issue I had is her not accompanying him in the very end going to Origin with Joshua and Dion
It makes too much sense why she didn't go. Not only was she heading towards being Blighted by using her powers too much, but she gave Shiva to Clive and their last mission was a suicide mission from the beginning (even though Clive is still alive). She just wouldn't have been able to do much if she did in her state unfortunately. It would have been cool, but it would have been stupid if they allowed her to go all things considered.
A lot of people don't like that she is a tool for Clive's development and she effectively gets fridge something Maehiro the writer has done one too many times. Japanese Sexism.
@@Zoeila How is she just a tool for Clives developement when she has her own arc where Clive returns the favor and helps her through her problems as well. Did you guys not play the game? Have you never had a relationship before? They literally helped each other throughout the whole story...
@@F34RDSoldier805 Dion also had his powers "shared" to Clive, yet he went to Origin and even primed as well, this was no excuse for Jill not going, at least partially.
@@Zoeila that's not what fridged means.
The thing with the kids and bearers are an old, OLD debate in psychology between nature vs nurture. IIRC the consensus is that kids tend to inherit personality and behavioral quirks from the parents naturally, but things such as morals and ideology are taught.
Jill's the Iron Kingdom's Cid, except she's even worse used than him. Cid at least was a respected commander fighting for his country of his own free will. By the start of the story, both of them were severely weakened. Cid lost to Benedikta, the weakest enemy Eikon, and Jill could barely hold back Liquid Flame. Both had started to turn to stone and would likely be ordered by Jarta to avoid magic.
In short, to have Jill jump into the fray of battle or an Eikon fight like many would like would be inconsistent with the logic of the story. She's not written to be the false bravado type to throw herself into a battle she knows could kill her. In fact, the only time she did that was to save Clive against Barnabas.
Sure I would love more questing with Jill, but people act like she's left behind for no reason. Let's not forget, being left behind also usually involved her watching over the backline when Clive & co went to the frontline.
medicine girl is goated
I think so many people miss the point that Jill has disassociated in order to mentally deal with what she was forced to do, and what she went through. Her primary story arc is dealing with it, and it’s done extremely well.
Exactly, and as far as female leads in FF go, she's definitely up there too. The kind of things that critics of Jill's character accuse her of (being reduced to a "support for Clive", having no agency of her own, getting sidelined too much) are more fit for another female FF lead, You know, the one that got ruined by bad writing.
I'm looking at you, Lunafreya.
@@gnw_AstA Definitely, the fact that Jill and Clive both were able to have story arcs that felt well-realized and complete makes me unbelievably happy. This feels like the first FF that there’s really not something iffy regarding the characters and story. It’s all really well done.
@@cambienvenu People rationalize the game's disappointing treatment of Jill using her backstory, which technically does "make some sense", but imo the story takes it too far.
Jill doesn't talk enough or have meaningful interactions with any characters outside Clive, not even Joshua? It feels like she's just there in the background a lot of the time? You say it's because she disassociated as a result of her Iron Kingdom trauma.
Jill's Shiva appearances are underwhelming? It's cuz her Iron Kingdom trauma made her weaker from the curse.
Jill gets sidelined after her Iron Kingdom arc, sits out Dhalmekia, sits out the Bahamut fight, sits out Ash/Waloed, sits out the final battle? It's cuz her Iron Kingdom trauma made her weaker from the curse.
Overall, Jill gets almost no significant content after her Iron Kingdom arc outside her relationship with Clive? It's cuz of the aforementioned sidelining which, again, is excused because of the curse's spread.
On top of that, Jill even gets captured twice?
For me, it's too much. Ultimately, regardless of narrative rationalizations, the end result is still the same: Jill feels underutilized and lacks active presence too much for my liking. It's a writing decision that I don't really appreciate when Jill is the main heroine and only female party member.
@@brendanlee369 it's been interesting to me to see the difference in how men and women react to Jill.. overall I've seen much more positive reaction to her from men, calling her mature and strong. Women have said she's sidelined in all the ways you mentioned. Very interesting.
@@pridefall3304 I can't really speak on that, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's true as a trend. Funny thing is that I'm a man lol.
It's frustrating because Jill had a lot of potential on paper, but much of it ended up being squandered... she really deserved better.
I loved all the character in this game but lets be honest, we all want a sugar daddy like Byron
Jill is a great character. She is just underutilized, tragically so. That is why there has been so much uproar over her story; not because people didn't like her, but because they did and didn't get to see anywhere near as much of her as they would've liked.
She is but a lot of the critique is indeed that she "isn't Tifa or Aerith" I seen someone say that she is worst than Rinoa and I just can't process that much idiocy.
I don't really agree. She's literally fighting along side you in your party for most of the story after she wakes up all the way until you reunite with Joshua. That's around the same time she gets taken by Odin and then gives up her power and can't really use her magic as well or prime without risk of losing control. There's even an entire arc of the story where you go confront her demons and kill her tormentor. She's a supporting character that does pretty much exactly what she needs to. This isn't FFX where the main character is Tidus but the story is really equally or even more so about Yuna and her journey. The story is about Clive and the two fire eikons and the people and relationships that got him where he needed to go.
In what ways was she ever underutilised? Plot wise she is single biggest factor for how Clive can overcome most of the practical limitations that would otherwise be placed upon him, or simply kill him. She's there for Living Flame to hold the lava back, helps you get to the crystal in the first place by helping you through the most direct path, saves Clive from dying under the ocean, and is one of the very last Dominants to lose their power, besides Barnabus (who's crystal still existed at the time) and Joshua (who had said he would not relinquish Phoenix), and she is the very first display of Eikon vs Eikon outside of the opening Phoenix vs Ifrit scene where she manages to hold her own against Titan of all things.
She has reports, sidequests, and unique VO dedicated to supporting her own story. You spend a whole segment of the game traveling back to the place where she was abused and enslaved to let her murder the person responsible. She gets ample screen time, second only to Joshua who is Phoenix for the vast part of his involvement, Jill barely ever primes so her dialogue is almost always contextually conversational and not 'battle antics'. This is just such a straight up lie.
The backlash is because people saw she was shy and meek and that she gets captured for all of 20 minutes and suddenly she is another example of women in media being objectified as a plot device ala damsel in distress. Benedikta ruined Jill's chance at being a fan favourite because everyone loves the strong badass women, and never the genuinely fantastic (and let's be real - more realistic) depiction of a human being.
don’t speak for the haters… it completely devalues your argument
@@lotus2001 I wasn't speaking for the haters, I was speaking from my experience browsing Reddit threads about Jill being a bad character
I was certain and am still certain that Medecine Girl is Leviathan, and that we'll have a DLC about that. I know Leviathan and Alexander are both Eikons Yoshida wished he could have done so I expect a Cid DLC, but after that I wouldn't be surprised if we get a Leviathan/Alexander with time shenanigan leading to an alternate ending, probably to cap off the game, the same way the Ignis DLC did with XV.
First, Great Video. It's probably my favorite ff16 story and character analysis on youtube so far.
As for DLC, I was thinking of episode Cid but forgot Benedikta played a role in some of that so and Episode Cid and Benedikta. Another is Leviathan, the lost. My last one is probably not going to happen. It is a Royal Edition to the game, making improvements on aspects of the game people felt that it lacked, such as exploration and crafting, as well as adding status ailments and elemental weaknesses.
I love this game to bits and is like in my top 5 FFs. I would love to see it improved further.
Ultima: Your body wont survive the cast
Clive: Im going to cast the spell even if it kills me
*Wakes up on beach with no magic, nobody around and while the curse spreads*
Preach: Why do people think Clive is dead?
42:35 I believe it’s clarified at some point that Barnabas and Sleipnir orchestrated delivering Benedikta’s head to Hugo to manipulate him (which Waloed has been doing for a long time anyway), which is of course by Ultima’s design in extension. After which, as you recalled, ultima can then use her likeness as an illusion to further stir Hugo to lose himself in his vengeance against Clive.
Jill and Dion were so damn interesting and awesome, and they were both done so dirty by the story... Out there somewhere there is a version of this game that is an actual RPG with an actual party, and we get to have both of them impact the story more directly.
0:40 that was my reaction to clive FINALLY kissing Jill as well, like "cmon mate, you're both naked, alone on a beach, DO IT, DO IT NOW GODDAMIT"
16:30 Though Anabella is not directly influenced by Ultima, she totally follows the purpose Ultima set out for humanity: To breed the superior body for Him.
In that sense Anabella is not the puppet of the being Ultima, but a puppet of the pattern of evil (for example the pattern of "power destroying relationships") that Ultima personifies.
Yes but it being her free will make that she's way better character than her just being another pawn
Agree with everything i did not mind Jill at all. Loved Benedikta and her evil a dlc there would be nice true. But Dion i would say was my favorite as Ultima literally made him go insane against his his morals etc. Great game cannot wait for PC version as i do not own a PS 5.
Jill is a wonderful character for plenty of reasons, I just love how I know immediately a big chunk of people that dislike Jill are just your typical hardcore FF7 stans and it makes it easier to brush off.
I feel like Joshua kinda gets overlooked because he isn't as flashy as other characters in the game, but he's also damn well written. A little sad he doesn't get appreciated as much.
Also sidenote: While the ending is ambiguous for a reason, there's plenty of evidence that Joshua isn't dead either, one of the core evidence being a very integral part of the main scenario leading to the ending.
I dont get why he didnt like mid. Is it because of her accent? I personaly love mid as a character. And her personality is kind of unique.
Yeah it's because of the accent 😂 a bit close to home i think
Agree with you totally except for Mid. I didn't hate Mid. I did think they sorta just swept over her dad's death and how that affected her. I mean the first time we see her in the game she is all smiles. That doesn't really sit well when in our playing time, her dad died not too long ago. But, I absolutely love her accent. Best accent in the game. You being English I'm sure it's no big deal to you. And maybe, they even got it wrong. Me being an ignorant American, I thought it was great.
i fully agree. This felt like a MATURE adult relationship. vs the idealized teenage romance of the other FF games. I too was shocked at the Jill hate.
also, yes, the child is 'innocent'. they can't know better. and yep! i want more benedikta
Also, yes, Clive is alive.
Yeah, only took them 5 years to kiss.
Well medicine girl is obviously leviathan the lost one. That’s why she was everywhere when things were falling apart. No one knows what happened to leviathan but what if leviathan was just chillin hiding in the sidelines watching and hoping Clive succeeds in ending magic so he could finally die
I can't believe people thought that Jill, who is a literally ice queen, Shiva, is a bit distant. And that she is only able to open up when she is close to Clive, who is literally fire, Ifrit. This is one of the few times I thought Square was VERY blunt with their story. But apparently not blunt enough.
Just to correct this its FF6 Edgar that's the perv , FF4 Edward is the sad spoony bard
It’s Middle Ages technology
Despite what Game of Thrones tells everyone, in a world without condoms, there is a LOT less premarital sex. I do think the five year time skip is a little much because they literally do nothing as far as the plot goes for five years before rushing through and smashing every other Crystal inside of two weeks, but that plot hole is for everything, not just the relationship
Ultima is called Ultima because:
1: The Ifrit Risen body is actually patterned off Ultima Weapon from 7 and 14 and other games in terms of design (not so much 6) in that winged monster deal.
2: His own final forms are similar to some of the forms Ultimecia has, thus making Ultimalius a variation of that and reference.
3: Ultima is also the big destructive magic that comes up often in the games, either as the biggest spell or as some macguffin, as early as 2.
Also, because director Hiroshi Minagawa has made an Eldrich deal with Ultima itself to include it as the big bad in every game he works on. When Joshua said it's name I was like, yup, that sounds about right, lol
I appreciate as well how Jill and Clive were written, and their growth. Thank you for voicing it well
10/10 take. I agree with all your criticisms and praises. Finally someone who played the same game I did.
The funny thing about the child with her Chloe, is that it's not even the parent's fault either.
As it's the system of treating bearers as tools itself that is at fault. All because said tools are too useful to not be treated as such.
Great video, Jill does not need defending, she's a fantastic character who shows nothing short of the makings of a hero. THe only people making complaints about jil are the types that were bitching about diversity. In other words they were never going to like this game. Its easy to pick things apart when you go in with hate. And lets face it Jill flies in the face of everything these journalist praise in writing of female characters.
We did not deserve Jill. She was the epitome of female chivalry towards Clive.
Otherwise known as chivalry.
I really thought there was gonna be a last hour twist where Medicine Girl was Leviathan, because otherwise I was very confused why she was just everywhere.
I'm actually surprised Jill is so divisive among the fandom. I thought characterization to be one the game's strongest and unique among the women of final fantasy. She's pretty much a slave her whole life who forcibly shuts off her emotion when she commits all those horrible war crimes to the point of wanting to die.
To this point, when you defeat her while she's primed in the beginning of the game, she utters the word "finally." She was wanting death.
Jill DLC would be nice to flesh thr understanding of her experience as a slave
The only time were I felt that Clive and Jill's romance got ridiculous was when Gav interrupted them. It was funny in a sitcom kind of way.
Imagine if they make DLC What if Medicine Girl save Clive on the beach, then she was reincarnated Leviathan.
You said bearers were kinda left out at end of game, but I don't feel they were. I think the whole side quest with lubor (however you spell it) was for example an end game quest that was deeply bearer oriented when you find out he was a bearer and immediately went from leader to garbage in eyes of his OWN people and you go through a series of quests and events that ultimately results in his friends (kids) literally taking a rock for him and it shocks the adults of village to point they're repulsed by their own actions. There are also interactions here and htere that reference too of man and bearer working side by side. The scene with his uncle fighting akkashic with the old general and the they mention how bearers and solders stand united and it only took basically the end of the world for that to happen. So I don't think the point about bearers being side stepped late game is entirely accurate if you did side quests and see that they used a subtlety but a strong one to show around the world that it wasn't man vs bearer anymore, it was man and bearer vs survival and they must unite or fall.
My objection to the commentary on relationships in video games is that it equates a few different things: relationships that are healthy and mature, relationships that make for good stories, and relationships that are realistic. I agree that most romantic relationships in video games aren't the first of those, but that doesn't actually say much with respect to the second and third points. They can be all three of those things (and I agree that Clive and Jill are), but they don't have to be. Yen's personality is pretty unappealing and her romance with Geralt has a lot of issues, but I do find their interactions pretty compelling. Similarly Tidus and Yuna are very obviously two teenagers, and like a lot of romances between teenagers theirs is clearly not the most mature and grounded, but that doesn't make it unrealistic.
The more I think on it, the more I couldn’t disagree more with the notion of Clive’s simplicity as a character, that he’s a “blunt object.”
Is Clive the sharpest tool in the shed? No, but that also doesn’t make him stupid, nor does it make him deep and complex.
Consider that Clive goes through important growth, perpetuated from his own internal struggles and realizations. Clive makes specific and distinct choices to grow and adapt given his circumstances.
It’s Clive that emotionally recognizes and overcomes his initial grief of being the Second Dominant of Fire. He admits his own choices to run from the truth and blame others, and without anyone prompting him to confront this, he does so on his own. He admits he was wrong and how to press forward, admitting to the truths he is cognizant of.
Look too how immediately after, he offers a worthwhile and insightful solution to Cid’s determination to make a place where “people can die on their own terms” but rather a place where they “can live on their own terms.” It’s not only a better solution, but it’s also reflective of Clive’s own revelations. Instead of only seeking death, vengeance, or violence, he chooses life. Yes, he continues to fight, he’s not the most tactical, but he is also acutely aware of how the world works. He knows you can’t just become a pacifist over night and expect the world you want to build will come about without issues.
Nobody ever really needs to point Clive in the right direction, he makes his own choices and they are based on what he has realized about himself after experiencing unnatural trauma and death in his life.
Most people would have embraced a life of death and destruction without recognizing the truth, or even if they did, they’d press on anyway out of anger and pain. Clive is much more dynamic and strong on an emotional intelligence level than what this “blunt tool” argument. He may not be a genius or extremely articulate, but he displays growth and adaptability to extreme events far better than most.
Its pretty obvious Clive survived (imo), but tbh, it bothers me how they ended it knowing that. I doubt this will happen, but I would love an epilogue DLC with Clive coming back from the final fight. Think The witcher 3 Blood and Wine.
Gav is the fucking super Chad mvp glue holding everything together.
People have already said this, but I'll repeat it anyway:
I feel like it was Barnabas' ploy (and Waloed's) to put Benedikta's head in the box to set Hugo against Cid. For one, Barnabas as a character-at least in the latter part of the game-is established to see his kingdom, his people, and his soldiers as a means to his master's end, in order to bring about that promised land and new world order. Benedikta certainly fit that bill, and was tragically loyal to a fault.
It wouldn't even surprise me if her seducing Hugo and putting the delusions of grandeur in his head were also a ploy of Barnabas to have formidable Dominant (and Eikon) in their pocket for whatever purpose or design they had for him-with Benedikta pulling his strings, but it's Barnabas' plans she's putting into motion.
Setting Hugo against Cid and the Hideaway seems like it would fit the bill of one of those plans.
EDIT: Also, Medicine Girl gave me Arya Stark vibes-especially considering that Game of Thrones was something of an inspiration for the team
The DLC I want to see is "The Bastards", clives time as an Imperial soldier and then assassin slave. Why did they care for each other and give each other codenames? Show their bond and how Clive's desire for revenge kept him going. If you wanted, you could make it an entire in-the-past DLC with Cid/Benedicta, Dion & Dad, etc.
This is what I was thinking. There’s no places to go post credits given how the game ended. However, there is a lot of time in between time skips and this could allow for more fleshed out aspects of Clive’s story
agreed with everything said about Jill. a beautiful and sweet romance story, and the scene on the beach was absolutely amazing,
Wait what???? People hate Jill??? Wtf??????
Not the child's fault. I've seen the opinion that Clive was too harsh with that girl. But I couldn't disagree more. I used to have an opinion on something not quite so serious, because that's what the media taught as I was growing up. It took tough love from my partner to tell me that was wrong, for me to see.
Now, that little girl has been informed, and it might be something that sticks with her as she grows, and she can decide where she stands from there.
The reason destroying the crystal makes things worse because they we’re balancing each others pull of the aether. Destroying one cause the aether to be drawn to the others at an increased rate. This is why the north was completely lost to the blight, its crystal was destroyed and all its aether siphoned south.
The aether floods later in the game are also a result of aether being pulled from the ground.
Cid was right about the crystals absorbing aether, but was wrong about them causing the blight. In a way they were protecting them FROM the blight.
Also, it was barabas that sent the head. He was orchestrating events to push us into conflict with the other dominants the whole game in order to complete the vessel.
I love Jill.
I think people expected her to be more in your face since people see her as the main heroine. But she's more reserved and that is natural when you consider her upbringing and her baggage.
The romance between her and Clive is the best in series for me, due to it being very natural and it involves two people well into adulthood. Which can't be said for the most of the series.
Mid is a better flushed out version of Cidney in my opinion .
I screamed when you said Medicine Girl! Totaly with you on that one!
Jill was literally capture by the iron kingdom since she was a child, probably torture, they would kill children if she didn’t kill other people, and some fans blame her for been distant, I feel like people before criticize a character, they need to put themselves in their shoes
Is suicidal before the first time skip
People point out that the game looks like it has a bad ending if you don't do the sidequests, but the same ending looks like a good ending if you have. It's a very interesting method of ending a story and I wonder how things will go with CBU3 and single player games in the future.
Gav is probably my favorite character though. He's the best friend everyone wants yet so few of us seem to have. I loved Mid, like Byron she is a rare light in this incredibly dark world. Dion was extremely well done, but yet for as good as he was, it was Joshua's death that really broke me. I have a younger brother that is almost the same age difference to me as Clive and Joshua are to each other. Everything about their bond, I felt deeply. Its a true testament to the brilliant performance by Ben Starr that you feel every ounce of that grief, pain and loss when Joshua dies.
Medicine Girl is great, I suspect she might be Leviathan's dominant.
Jill is by far my favorite character. I just got to the point where the pub cheered. And I was there. It was so touching and not cheap at all.
before I see the video, I kinda see where both sides are coming from, but I'm fundamentally pro-jill here.
She's fantastic, when she's on screen. But the game being structured firmly around Clive means that every supporting character gets "their" chapter where they're doing stuff and have agency and then they just chill outside of "their" chapter.
I stopped part way through the video, you convinced me to get the game when it comes out on PC. I was already interested in the combat but your impression of the story was amazing.
Barnabas put her head in the box and sent it to Hugo to aim him at Cid and Clive at the behest of Ultima. at least that is my belief.
that's the most reasonable interpretation imo. I honestly thought it was a neat plot device for the heroes to be framed for a crime they 100% committed lol.
@@Keira_Blackstone lmao you're right they did do it just they didn't go all Seven Kevin Spacey.
i LOOOOOOVED Jill she was amazing
Fucking thank you. The first genuine and heartfelt relationship and people scoff at that shit while clutching their waifus. The age old saying goes, “Your waifu is trash.”
Everybody mad is just weebs annoyed that it isn't hyper anime. It's always the same kind of comments ad verbatim. The game has flaws for sure but the ones thrown around ain't it.
I think people thought Clive was dead because an article came out like 3 days after the game was out saying he was dead by people who skipped all the side quests to get to the ending and thus had no context.
Excellent video, was waiting for this
To me the game is just way more than the sum of its parts. I had so many little problems with it while I was playing it but when I think back on the game Its nothing but good feelings. Keep going CBU3.
Otto's sidequest was an unexpected punch in the guts.