Did early Bible translators pull a fast one?
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- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2024
- Was the original Hebrew text of Psalm 22:16 secretly changed by the Christian Church to make it appear more Christological? Rabbi Tovia Singer says yes. A closer look at the verse in the original Hebrew uncovers some surprises.
(This is a shorter edit of a previous video.)
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Nicely done! I am a retired professor of Jewish studies and I have to say this break down is excellent. It's right on the money. Thank you for putting it out there.
Thank you for watching, Elyob! Shalom.
Loved the presentation.
Many people choose to interpret that is what they do. Lord forgive the rabbi.
Thank you, Robert!
The Word of God is interpreted by the holy spirit not with the human minde, the things of the spirit are thought by the spirit
The Orthodox Jewish Bible and the Complete Jewish Bible are NOT Jewish sources. They were done by Christians/Messianics. This is a clear distortion of the facts. There are more in his video's but this example shows how he distorts or colors data so that you think he is objective.
I think you missed the point I was making, Moshe. I referenced those translations to show that even Christian translations acknowledge the issue with the verse in question. And, also, I would argue that these are, in fact Jewish sources. Because the people who created them are Jews. And Jews who have come to faith in Yeshua as their Messiah and Savior are no less Jewish. Blessings, Rob
@@TheBiblicalRoots That assumes that 'pierced' or actually more accurately 'bore' or 'dug' is a valid translation. Quoting Christian sources that it is a valid translation does not support your argument. That some Christian sources recognize 'like a lion' as correct help Rabbi Singer, but does not seem to counter his argument that it was purposely distorted.
There is much to be said on this, but I believe the ENGLISH translations are purposely mistranslated to 'pierced'. It is done for clear Christological purposes. It is not the translation of Karu or the Greek translation found in the Greek Bible, which is to dig.
W can argue about the accuracy of the Greek, since Karu, is missing the aleph which is found in all ancient texts of this verse. And NO form of the word KRH has an aleph added after the 'K'. However Kaari, has the aleph. As you pointed out a vov and yud can easily be exchanged by poorly skilled scribes.
Seems right, well done and thanks.
Van Panin, was a language expert 1850 to 1942. He noticed some things like this. But as he found patterns of seven based on either the order value or the letter as a number value, he thought he could find another way to decide the intention of God Praise be to he.
Hebrew has many similar letters, it's a nightmare.
Don't' forget to mention the many masoretic texts that read, *THEY PIERCED MY HANDS AND FEET* or *THEY DUG THROUGH MY HANDS AND FEET* .
It's also important to look at Chiastic structure - Verse 16 and 20 mirror each other. If verse 16 was to read, *Like a Lion* , why does verse 20 mention dogs and swords?
One other point - in verse 13, we see the phrase *Like/as a lion* and it also contains a verb - also notice, the hebrew for like a lion in verse 13 looks alot different than the altered ka'ari - why would David not use a verb in verse 16/17 when he clearly uses a verb in verse 13? Why would he use a different translation for *like a lion* in verse 13 than he would in verse 16? Makes no sense, other than, the masoretes altered the Psalm in 10th century - the original translation was *THEY PIERCED/DUG THROUGH MY HANDS AND FEET*
Finally, verse 27 mentions that all the Gentile nations will bow down and worship the God of Israel because of this man's suffering - The only reason the Gentiles worship the God of Israel is because of the suffering of Yeshua/Jesus - Not David! We declare the Righteousness of Jesus to this day and remember what he did, *PSALM22:16-31*
Also, when did anyone gamble for David's clothes? When were David's hands and feet pierced?
Just because the masoretes were corrupt and attempted to change one hebrew letter in some manuscripts, doesn't mean it's correct - The dead sea scrolls are an ancient manuscript that carbon date before Jesus and prove that KJV translation is correct - the Jewish Orthodox Bible also says *THEY PIERCED MY HANDS AND FEET* - the corrupt version is lacking a verb!
I came here after watching your interview on Christ, Culture & Coffee. Fascinating stuff. It's easy to see how those two letters could be easily misread or misprinted. Do you have any plans to release your book on Torahism in an audio format?
Thanks, Brandon! My book Torahism has been released and is currently available on Amazon: www.amazon.com/Torahism-Christians-Required-Keep-Moses/dp/1733672117
@@TheBiblicalRoots peddling this lie is not going to earn you a place in the world to come
@@seekers-of-righteousness Which lie is that?
@@TheBiblicalRoots the lie of the Hebrew word meaning piercing. It doesn’t mean piercing at all
@@TheBiblicalRoots
This is the role of the Jew. To be the light to the nations. A righteous remnant. The Jews that keep all the laws of God are to teach the rest of the world how to serve The Almighty One, blessed be He. A messianic Jew “completed Jew” would not be one that holds truth for he does not keep the commandments that God said to keep forever.
3Then Moses went up to God, and the LORD called to him from the mountain, “This is what you are to tell the house of Jacob and explain to the sons of Israel: 4‘You have seen for yourselves what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to Myself. 5Now if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, you will be My treasured possession out of all the nations-for the whole earth is Mine. 6And unto Me you shall be a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you are to speak to the Israelites.”
The rabbis of this world have the truth. Torah observant jews that keep the law are the righteous remnant. The gentiles of the world only have to keep the laws given to Noah. The 7 Noahide laws
Did you read the Septuagint Psalm 22:1 (For the end, concerning the morning aid, a Psalm of David. O God, my God, attend to me: why hast thou forsaken me? the account of my transgressions is far from my salvation.) Did Jesus commit transgressions???!
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂psalms 22 has nothing to do with christians or jezers
Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Shalom. I'm curious. How did you come to that conclusion?
God bless you and Rabbi Tovia Singer and our jewish brothers, just continue to search and stay in the truth, only the truth is important.
May Godbless ur efforts to keep Gods words.
For me ilove word of God and still studying it even though I'm Muslim am proud of jesus becoz he revealed himself to me time was having trouble.. He saved me.. Even though ibeliev that holy scriptures were not written by prophets themselves but their followers wrote it still have Faith in them
Ameen. Keep walking in teaching God's words ipray for u
There are more than just one letter: Ka´ari like a lion. But Karu with just one a. means dugg like you dugg a pit. The former word Ka´ari is the right word. Remember that verse is NOT cited in NT which it wouldhave been if the verse had the word pierced!
A. Lion being there is interesting in of itself
Christ is the lion of judah.
So...
Thank you
Jesus is The Jewish Messiah. prophecy was fulfilled.
I agree, Veronica! Thanks for watching.
They were many Messiah the levites priest Messiah, saul was a Messiah, david was Messiah, etc.
Excellent breakdown of how both variations point to the same truth! I'll take both
Yes!! I agree with you. To me what stands out is "my hands and my feet." It's kind of a odd phrase, but it does make sense in reference to Jesus crucifixion whichever the original text read.
Thank you for the video, would love to see you guys in a real debate
Great Video! This is off topic a little bit, but there have never been any Hebrew New Testament manuscripts found, correct? Do Hebrew Roots folks think there are Hebrew New Testament manuscripts in existence?
Thanks, Ronnie! That is correct, we have no Hebrew manuscripts of the NT. Everything we have is in Greek. There are some folks who believe that one or more of the NT books were originally written in Hebrew, but it's an unsubstantiated theory at the moment.
Shalom, RLS
The “Jewish “ translations presented here are Christian publications.
Yep, that's the point, Tactup. Tovia claimed the Christian translations were pulling the wool over our eyes, so I tested his claim by surveying a range of Christian translations. Shalom, Rob
So David is lamenting about his troubles and hardships for the whole chapter and then starts channeling Jesus for a minute before he snaps out of it? SMH
Well, that's not quite how it works, Tactup. David, writing under the inspiration of God, likely did not even realize the additional levels of meaning behind what he was writing. The same goes for many of the messianic prophecies in Scripture. "The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever" (Deut 29:29). It wasn't until the revelation of Yeshua haMashiach that those secret things were made known by God. But Jesus knew, which is why He quoted Ps 22 from the cross: He was pointing us to its deeper meaning.
R.
I am glad I watched your video on this. I was somewhat skeptical as to what I would hear you say and was very pleased. Thank you for ¥our explanation. Makes sense.
Thanks, Kila!
My family loves your videos! Please enlighten me on this from my LXX. It reads "pierced" without any note about "lion". Could it just be the particular editor to my copy of the Septuagint? Thank you!
I have just been directed here by Pastor Bill Randles who recommended to listen to you on this issue. I loved what you have shown us and much more the humility with which you have shown us too! Praise our God for your thoughtfulness, consideration and analysis and Godly attitude! I have subscribed for more of your teaching. Blessings!
Thank you, Crystal!
@@TheBiblicalRoots You are most welcome brother....
Ka'aru is a nonsense word in Hebrew - it means nothing. One possible way in which this got into the LXX as 'they dug' was that the scribe knew this word meant nothing and tries to figure this out by using the root of ka'aru (kaf-aleph-resh-vav) which is karu (kaf-resh-vav) - to dig. Thus changing it from a noun (ka'ari (kaf-aleph-resh-yod) to a verb and then conjugating it to the 3rd person plural - 'they dug.' This then gets interpreted as pierced. But ka'aru does not mean pierced - absolutely no proof for that.
Thanks, VM! That's not an unreasonable position to take. But at the end of the day, it all means the same thing. The metaphorical lions are tearing and ripping at the sufferer’s hands and feet. This mauling and biting graphically portrays great physical agony. It’s entirely consistent with what occurs in a crucifixion. So either translation could be said to foreshadow the suffering of the Messiah.
Shalom, Rob
@@TheBiblicalRoots Of course, but generalized suffering is easily applied to many verses and as such almost all those verses can envision messiah. That does not really help us!
@@veridicusmaximus6010 To be fair, the verse in question does not speak to "generalized suffering." It talks specifically about maiming of the hands and feet, which is a distinct characteristic of crucifixion. ~Rob
@@TheBiblicalRoots True, the specific verse - 16 - does not. Lions do trip-up their prey's feet and dogs do attack the hands when one tries to defend themselves when surrounded. Like dogs and lions the evil men who attack and prey on others surround and bind their enemies hands and feet when they capture them in war. There is a lot of imagery here that can be applied to anyone who has enemies in general and is being pursued and attack by them just as David. If Matthew can find Jesus in the Out of Egypt passage he can be found anywhere - and certainly this practice of seeing him there was ever growing as time went forward.
I don't the think the Rabbis concern is 'much to do about nothing' given the antisemitism that early Christians had for Jews and their constant using of the OT passages to shove in their face that 'prove' Jesus is messiah. Tampering with the text is also a good possibility as the LXX has many variations and reads a lot like a paraphrase. Also, taking vague verses like verse 16's 'like a lion crushing or biting the hands and the feet' and applying them to Jesus is a stretch for sure and not a convincing argument. Early Christians saw Jesus everywhere in the OT.
Hi, VM! Modern Christians also see Jesus everywhere in the Tanakh. This is because Jesus saw Himself everywhere in the Tanakh.
"You search the Scriptures [Tanakh] because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me...For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me." (John 5:39-40, 46)
"And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself" (Luke 24:27)
Jesus pointed to Isaiah 53:12 and said, “I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment” (Luke 22:37).
And of Isaiah 61:1-2, Jesus said, "This scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing today” (Luke 4:18-21).
Shalom,
Rob
@@TheBiblicalRoots Yes, I'm aware of that but again - Christians said Jesus said those things. Big difference! And notice only in Luke and John - much later writings.
@@veridicusmaximus6010 Hi, VM. Actually, all four of the gospels and most of the epistles teach that Jesus was the Jewish Mashiach and/or that He fulfilled messianic prophecies. It was a given conviction of the NT writers.
The entire debate between anti-Christian rabbis like Tovia Singer and Christianity hinges on one issue: the validity of the NT Scripture. All other discussions are just secondary chatter. Every opinion you have shared is based on your fundamental belief that the NT is false. Every opinion I have shared is based on my fundamental belief that the NT is true.
@@TheBiblicalRoots Well, certain things in the NT are true just like they are in Harry Potter - but not all. And I have no doubt that the writers of the Gospels believed certain things like Jesus being the Messiah - but believing and being are two different things. My point about John and Luke was that they alone quote that Jesus said that about Moses. By the time the 4 gospels are written the degree of proof in how much the OT spoke of their beliefs about Jesus being Messiah had grown - just like John's statement about his miracles being so numerous that there would not be enough books to fill them all. While Mark has him trying to avoid crowds and performing them.
Would love to see more videos about your stance on the Septuagint. Singer likes to say it's a Christian invention, and not at all a Jewish Rabbinical translation. What is your rebuttle to that?
I agree with Rabbi Singer that the term "Septuagint" has been applied to multiple Greek translations of the Tanakh over the centuries. But scholars are pretty unanimous in their dating of the translations. The Septuagint was originally a translation of just the Torah, but later the entirety of the Tanakh was translated. And that work was completed (by Jewish translators) ~150 years before Jesus. So it was most certainly not a Christian invention. The Septuagint was the NT author's favorite and most used translation of the Hebrew Bible. They quoted from the Greek Septuagint more often than the Hebrew Tanakh!
Blessings, Rob
@@TheBiblicalRoots oh man, that brings up another question: where are you on the topic of Hebrew authorship of the Gospels ala Jerome, Eusebius, etc. Would we expect to find Hebrew quotes, or Greek quotes, if that were the case, and are there traces of evidence to point to that could answer that question?
@@TheBiblicalRoots thank you for your response, I appreciate your answers, and your very thoroughly candid and peaceable demeanor! Shalom!
@@GoodGodFatherGGF Hello, GGF! As far as the authoring of the Gospels, there is little to suggest they were originally written in Hebrew, though I don't think that's out of the question. More importantly, the NT was written almost entirely _by_ Hebrews (with the possible exception of Luke/Acts). The prevailing theory, which I subscribe to, is that the NT was written in koine Greek because that was the lingua franca of the era, and the authors wanted their writings to reach as many people as possible. Their goal was to "make disciples of all nations"! This would explain why they quoted more often from the Greek Septuagint than the Hebrew Tanakh.
Blessings, Rob
*"Dogs... like a lion my hands and feet" sounds like somebody has tampered with evidence.*
*It's clearly missing a verb in the object-verb-subject sentence structure.*
*The Dead Sea scrolls reveal that the masorets were corrupting the Hebrew scriptures. They removed the word "light of life" in Isaiah 53:11 because it pointed to resurrection which originally read, "Upon the travail of his soul he shall see LIGHT (of life)". After the corruption, it now reads the nonsensical "Upon the travail of his soul he shall see." Shall see WHAT?!*
The same is true about Psalm 22.
Good point. It appears most king james versions used the masoretic text as a manuscript base for the old testament portion.
just found you! awesome ! will definitely keep watching! thank you.
Thanks, Jerome!
Great video and really appreciated how you addressed this topic. I agree with you in that whichever rendering the original text had both are applicable to the crucifixion of Yeshua.
Thanks, Ira! Blessings, Rob
well done
The Tyndale ( Rongers, Coverdale ) Holy Bible reads "For dogs are come about me, the counsel of the wwicked hath laid siege against me. ( v.16 ) They pierced my hands and my fet, I might have told all my bones: as for them, they stood staring and looking at me." ( v. 17 ) Psalms.
Thanks!
I found out about you yesterday through a video interview and I ordered your book immediately after. I dealt with this subject years back ( 2008 - 2013 ) and got suck in in those years mentioned. I came out of it after seeing what it was doing to me and my friends. I have many books written by HRM. I have a brother in Christ who is a pastor in Washington State who is a writer also in this subject. He's a true Christian and a great friend i met through Facebook. Brent Adkisson is his name. I believe just like you. Check him out if you can. GBU!
Great info! Can you comment also on the reference to piercing in Zechariah 12:10? Do the rabbi's try to cover that one up also?
I've not personally come across any rabbis targeting that passage, and I've not studied it in detail myself. I did notice that the Jewish Bible translates the Hebrew word דָּקָ֑רוּ (da·ka·ru) as "thrust through [with swords]" or "slain," rather than "pierced."
@@TheBiblicalRoots It would seem strange that they would jump through hoops to cover up the Psalm 22:16 passage if there are other passages that still speak of a pierced Messiah.
Great video. I agree with your conclusion. It was most likely a typo error in scripture, instead of a fraudulent act. Christians believe scripture to be the word of God, and to alter it in any way would mean a deadly sin directly against the Spirit.. It also either way doesn't change the meaning of the passage. "Like a lion at my hands and feet" to a laymen such as myself could easily be interpreted as the hands and feet being pierced in some way. This, I assume through God's grace, even as a child I distinguished.
Thanks for watching!
Your channel appeared in the RUclips and found it profound interesting that there are still existing arguments of the Hebrew text. Thanks for pointing to Jesus Christ as what the old testament would put it.
Thanks for watching, Steve!