I was aboard the MV Tellus in June, 2001, en-route to Europe. Three days out of Charleston, SC, the fire alarm sounded. I, and a fellow U.S. Army soldier took our station on the bridge (as we were considered passengers and our mission was to escort 20 M-1 tanks to Bremerhaven, Germany (our final destination)). We watched as the whole crew fought the fire centered on the port quarter, first level down. It took some time, but the fire was taken under control. The next day, the third mate explained that we were very close to abandoning ship because the carbon dioxide system was not working as it should, and the chief engineer was on satellite phone back to United States asking the fire suppression experts what to do. He did get it working, thankfully, and we sailed directly to Bremerhaven, Germany where forensics determined that the fire was started by one vehicle. 125 vehicles either burned completely, or were smoke damaged.
@@graantmnz an EV in 2001? Come on. Well, no. Just no. What EV was available back then? Fossil fuel cars burn much more often than EVs by the way. Count it by the number of cars or by the miles driven...
@@richard--s Yes. But they are also easier to deal with in event of a fire. Back in the 90's milk floats in the UK were EV. Large Lead acid batteries. They don't burn uncontrollable like Lithium though.
Grimaldi not following their own procedures is really common, on all sorts of companies. Most put those procedures in place while making zero changes what the productivity targets are. (Requiring every battery to be manually disconnected but not budgeting any TIME to actually do so) The new procedures are actually there to allow the company to shift blame to employees. Create an impossible goal and blame those under you for not reaching it.
The biggest risk are the EV vehicles. Car carriers regardless if it's rail, truck or ship would never carry fully fueled vehicles. In the case of an EV that is what they are doing. Disconnecting at least the ground on their main battery needs to be a no-brainer. With that in mind there should be a quick access disconnect for emergencies and for shipping. Even if it is just just the ground.
Having to manually disconnect every car battery is a logistical nightmare. It's going to delay loading and offloading immensely. I don't know what the solution is.
Spot on. Rendering every EV safe according to the manual takes a lot of time. Especially when dealing with different makes and models. Loading and unloading of these behemoths is done as quickly as possible. Safety is massively neglected. As soon as insurance cost rises accordingly they will finally fix it.
An EV fire in a subterranean parking garage in Australia caused cobalt poisoning in 2 firefighters leading to their permanent disability. This is a big problem that needs to be addressed as we go forward with an EV cutover.
Newer battery chemistries have none or very little cobalt. I hope they make using cobalt illegal for large batteries like cars or home storage. Just like we don't use cadmium anymore. Nasty stuff.
for one i dont want to be told what i am should be driving. these things wont "save the planet" by any means. that's bull. the people that do drive EV's, proper safety procedures regarding charging, manufacturing, and transportation of such vehicles MUST be put in place.
@@andrewdonohue1853 it creates new misery and huge environment damage, in Congo they destroy entire ecosystem for mining and even kids are working in illegal mines!
Hi there! I’ve only just discovered your channel, when searching for details on the Freemantle Highway on fire off the coast of the Netherlands. In the early 80’s I myself was a marine engineer on deep sea vessels and cruise ships for P&O and Princess cruises. Indeed ship fires are your worst fear when being at sea especially working down the engine room. Your video and explanations are most interesting and well presented by yourself. I have now subscribed and looking forward to many contributions in the near future. Keep up the good work! Cheers Dave Kramer (British and living in the Netherlands)
@wgowshipping I was trying to reply to Dave, who may see my comment here, I wanted to tell him that he had found a Great channel and that Captain Sal was The real deal, and full of useful information in regards to Fire Fighting of all sorts. Hope That you're having a good day Captain Sal. Keep up the great work Captain. And that clip of The Backdraft that Injured the Jacksonville Firefighters was downright Scary and shocking, In it's Power, and seeing the debris that was launched in the Shockwave. Happy to know that no fatalities were suffered, but it definitely may have caused some career ending injuries.
THANKS very much for your thoughtful insights into shipping issues. Your background, knowledge, and experience greatly help the general "public" to understand these important issues.
So obviously these car carrier companies are doing there best to meet schedules and the time required to disconnect and reconnect batteries is seen as a hindrance to doing that. I watched a video of the loading process and no hoods were shown being opened at any time. They also showed numerous other types of vehicles being loaded such as farming and construction equipment. How time consuming is it to disconnect/reconnect batteries in vehicles like this compared to cars? Excellent video. Really appreciate this.
Heavy vehicles are usually fitted with isolating switches near their batteries which makes it easy to disconnect (without having to physically disconnect a battery). Maybe new cars need to be compulsory fitted with these also. Not sure what they do with EV cars and their large battery as the problems seem to be the battery itself spontaneously combusting.
@@dingoeatswolf3663 Ev batteries do NOT spontaneously combust. Battery fires in EV's are normally caused by a short causing an extremely high discarge rate. This causes very high heat which can cause a thermal runaway.
@@Agnemons They do and they will look up Lithium Battery Dendrites. They can and will ignite on their own. Tho it is not common but it is not rare either.
I am a retired chemist. EV's and their large lithium batteries are scary and a terrible danger when on fire. There is not an easy fix. Thank you for your video. Very informative.
Oh, alright Mr Chemist now reduced to apparently no qualifications since you want to emphasize retired. How exactly do you "fix" this not so easily then? How do you disable this massive chemical energy store reading to combust into an exothermic blaze the moment you look at it the wrong way? I think I've spotted the once EV owner here. It's rather cute how you want to wave around your scientific qualifications while simultaneously misleading people on the dangers any highschooler could correct you on.
@@oldmech619 ev's just randomly erupt into flames. thats all there is to it. they are potential bombs. each and every one of them. gas cars usually only catch on fire for an actual reason. like an accident or someone smoking when fueling it up . ev's will literally burst into flames for basically no reason.
When I shipped my car, a Honda Prelude, from Toronto to Vancouver, via airplane, the car had to be almost empty of fuel and the batterie was disconnected, after loading onto the B747. That was in 1982, so disconnecting a battery while being "shipped", by plane, boat or train, should be standard.
You shipped a Honda Prelude from TO to Vancouver by PLANE? Why? I mean, what did that cost and why did you put that much expense into such a car? I assume someone else was paying to move you.
@@smgdfcmfah it costded me at that time $700.- plus I was on the same flight and was able to pick up my car a little later that day, plus fill the car to the rim with my stuff. By train it would have taken 3 weeks, the car needed to be empty and the shocks would have been shot (I did not know that, the rail company told me that when I called for info) plus the cost was $600.-. So by plane was a way smarter option. Its an option most people never think about. My car just made it size wise.
@@scaryfakevirus Yes it makes a difference. the presenter was incorrect when he said it was not possible to disconnect the battery in an EV. EVs still have 12V batteries. Without the 12V battery the EV is dead, because 12V is needed to close the contactors for the high voltage. You can "boost" and EV with an ICE vehicle, and vice-versa.
@@jamesphillips2285 I wasn't taking about whether they can be disconnected or not. Lithium ion batteries don't require any connection to spontaneously combust. However, lead acid batteries are not a problem if disconnected.
I have a Prius and there's a big orange clip you can pull out that completely isolates the battery. It isn't obvious how to get to it, lift the back deck where the spare tire is and it's there. They need to train their loaders better. All fire departments here have done the training since they respond to vehicle accidents and probably tow truck operators. (BTW.. my car is NiMH, not Li batteries)
@@jhb9746 I wasn't thinking that they would wait until a fire to pull the plugs, but to make pulling the plugs part of the loading process. Although, if all the cars around it are burning hot I'm sure the energy in the battery would find away to join the party some way... plugs in place or not. It would prevent the ev from being the start to the fire.
@@grahamstrouse1165 Panasonic got sued for developing batteries for the electric RAV4. Chevron bought up the EV1 battery patents in order to delay the electric car by 2-0 years. That is why EVs now use laptop batteries. It is to work around patents owned by oil companies.
Professor Dr Sal, this was a very “TOASTY” episode. Your firefighter experience was invaluable for insights. My heart goes out to those who lost their lives.
Grimaldi says every battery must cut off an secure it, but they also know that it not works because of they scheduled the time for the loading. When a accident or a fire accused they treat it down to the ship crew.
🤔 As a side issue with used car transport; is anyone checking to see if these cars are stolen? We've had a huge problem with car theft rings here in Philadelphia. One car heist job was literally of a dozen Kia and hyundais straight from the port of Philadelphia lot. Another Big heist a few weeks ago were of cars straight from airport rental facilities lots. They literally came in, hotwire the cars and pointed a gun at the gate attendant and drove away with like a dozen cars. It's been said that a lot of these vehicles are being shipped overseas. How much customs oversight is going on with the transport of these vehicles? Even before we get to the issues about fire? 🔥 🚒
US Customs can't control the US borders from thousands of people entering illegally everyday. Why would anyone think US Customs has any ability whatsoever to control what leaves the USA?
The High voltage battery in EVs and Hybrids can be isolated as well as the auxiliary 12v battery. It does of course mean there's two batteries to disconnect. On finishing loading the Battery disconnection should surely be done by the stevedore same as the lashings on container ships. To go round a big multideck ship by the available crew, disconnecting batteries is a tall order, there may be 22 in the crew but not all are available, they have other duties to attend to before sailing. They will be doing the ISPS's checks for stowaways, and items like holdalls that shouldn't be there, (does mean even the Engine Room procedures have to stop as the ER staff get involved as well). All whilst the terminal operator is pushing to get the ship of their berth so they can get the next one in.
You need only disconnect the 12V battery. The Main battery will then be disconnected automatically. EVs are designed not to connect the high voltage without the 12V present to energize the contactors.
re: "the Battery disconnection should surely be done by the stevedore". unfortunately no, not if said stevedore is looking to AVOID ELECTROCUTION and has a desire to return home to their loved ones. the consumer "errs" when they equate the relatively safe 12V system (though not to be confused with 100% safe) as being the same as the high voltage 400V-1000V system of the traction battery. yeah, ask any qualified Electrician or "Sparky" and they will tell you there's a reason why every electrical panel we've ever seen in our lives has a clearly marked label on the outside that says "DANGER HIGH VOLTAGE".
@@rtqiiThey described the sound as a jet engine firing up before the first blew out the deck and up and down the stairwell onto 5 deck, where the ramp was located.
Blows my mind professionals made such a mistake. I learned of the danger of letting fresh oxygen in a close space from a film with Kurt Russel: “Backdraft” 1991. 😁
Sal, a great video on car carrier fires! This seems to be too common a problem to be ignored. As an engineer, I want to go one step further, beyond describing and analyzing what’s happening; that is to come up with solutions. This would be my proposal for an increased fire safety on car carriers: EV fires seem to be the greatest challenge, as they cannot be extinguished. So the fire has to be contained and it’s propagation stopped in order to limit damage and save the ship. To achieve this, these measures are necessary: - the cargo space where cars are stored is divided into smaller enclosed compartments, several per deck. - a powerful sprinkler system, operated by sea water, is in place, to absorb heat and prevent further ignition of other vehicles. - overboard drainage to discharge the water from the sprinkler system to avoid accumulation of water to an extent that would endanger the ship’s stability. Of course that comes at a price, in terms of financial investment, reduced space and payload, and additional equipment. But it could prevent a total loss of ship and cargo, and limit the economic loss and the damage to an extent that can be repaired. What are your thoughts on this?
EVs generally have a "fuse" you can pull that detaches the traction battery. You can also usually detach the 12V battery and that will stop power going to the contactors that enable the traction battery's output. Side benefit is to prevent anything going wrong with all of the 12V parts of the car.
True, but the problem with EVs isn't the same as that with regular cars. In regular cars, a spark or short will cause something to catch fire. Disconnect the battery and you eliminate the spark. EVs are different. It is the batteries themselves that create the problem. They burn. It matters not if they're connected to the rest of the car or not.
@@Inkling777 The chance of an EV battery spontaneously combusting is mind-numbingly small. The majority of issues happen while the car is charging or driven.
@@micke3035 The solution to that would be to mandate that EVs can't be shipped mixed in with other vehicles, but rather need to be isolated in some way that gives protection against fire getting to the EVs like perhaps a specific deck that is sealed off from the others or something. (Which would not be perfect, of course, but the goal would be to buy time to get the fire under control before it could reach the EV batteries and get them going.)
I appreciate your focus is on shipping and you are giving the facts about electric vehicles as just one of the many elements of shipboard fires. John Cadogan, the Australian car expert has a lot to say about the Fremantle Highway or "Dutch Oven" as he calls it. For a no BS analysis of the dangers of evs he is your man. However, you must be warned that he does use strong language, but he is an Aussie. Thanks for your informative videos.
An interesting way to handle lithium battery fires is total submersion in water. Better yet salt water as it will slow discharge any remaining intact cells. More importantly, a mass of water greater than the mass of the battery will absorb the massive amount of output heat AND prevent gas discharges from flashing to flames in presence of oxygen. Given we are on a ship, could the EVs be placed in an emergency lower deck which can be flooded with salt water? It would limit the number of EVs carried until safety standards with the cars themselves increase.
The problem is that some cars have had to be left in water for _a month_ before they stopped re-igniting, which obviously is problematic as you're trying to get them off the ship.
Due to their chemical composition, Lithium-ion (Li-Ion) batteries release oxygen when they heat up, and therefore, when they catch fire, it is impossible to smother the flames with water or foam even if the entire battery is completely submersed in water or deprived of oxygen-containing air.
@@datepalm1969 It depends on the chemistry. EVs should move away from Cobolt Oxide to Iron Phosphate. They don't contain oxygen and they don't produce anywhere near as much heat in operation. They are able to sustain a 38mOhm short circuit and not breach cells. When they do pop they spit non-flammable gas... still damn hot though so it can ignite combustables near by, but not long tongues of flames.
@@keith6706 Max time period is a week. And that's only for safety and ease, not because it's necessary. As opposed to ICE vehicles which will explode on the spot and send shrapnel in all directions.
@@datepalm1969 Care to back that up with a credible source, suspected liar? It's not just possible, it's been done and more products for it are out weekly. I HAVE put out Lithium fires with water, which you claimed is impossible. Just need more of it.
Wonder what naval architects current thinking is on new build Roll-on/roll-off MV? PS - Seems MV could potentially use FM200 or HI-FOG systems that are in use at data centers.
Now foam systems are installed the foam (AFFF) is mixed with seawater and air and is filling the space, the result is high cooling effect and AFFF blocks the fire triangle so it cannot sustain fire, after effect all electronics in the same area are damaged.
Seems like the jacksonville firemen didnt know what they were doing. Another thing to note is the majority of times you have normal land based fire fighters called out to ship fires they often flood the ships and sink it due to excessive water use. You have to bear in mind the weight and free surface effect of the water being pumped in via the hoses
Also, what are the statistics on how common these fires are on RORO ships? How many fires vs how many total ship crossings on an annual basis? Are they statistically increasing or just more coverage of them?
Is it corrupt? Is it political? I suspect you mean: "is it politically corrupt?" Maybe in some isolated areas. I doubt that's a universal cause. To the unasked question: "Is it criminal?" Yes, certainly! That does not mean it's politically corrupt. Some politicians may be criminals, but not all criminals are politicians. Your thought process is interesting.
@@77thTrombone Politics concern state bureaucracies, not just politicians. Reminder: there are several branches of government, and all of them have many bureaucrats assisting people actually elected if branch is elected. And it's the bureaucrats that get corrupted in cases like stolen vehicles getting on board illegally. Not politicians. So yes, political. No, probably not about politicians.
One quick comment. EVs have two batteries. The high-voltage battery and a 12V battery. Typically when the car is parked, the HV battery is electrically isolated from the rest of the car - this is really for the safety of any mechanics that might be working on the car while it is off. The 12V battery drives all of the normal accessories (radio, lights, etc) that you find in any car including keyless entry. Given that there is no alternator, the car may top off the 12V battery as needed from the HV battery, but if the car is parked, this probably won't need to happen very often. When one wants to turn on an EV, the energy from the 12V battery is used to close the relays that connect the HV battery to the rest of the car.
Hi Sal, With the number of fires on vehicle transport ships it won’t be long before the insurance industry will be mandating changes to the ships to handle electric vehicle fires. I can imagine Evs being parked around the perimeter of one specific deck so that they can be ejected into the water in case of fire. Or I can imagine high density wet sprinklers on specific decks. It will be cheaper to modify the ships than the complete losses we are now seeing.
The problem with sprinklers is you end up sinking or setting the ship up for years of refit even if the fire is put out within the first hour. You need to flood a deck with 3cms of water per minute to have any hope of keeping the fire contained, In the first ten minutes you reduce the buoyancy safety factor of most of these boats by 30%. These fires burn for 40 minutes with near unlimited water thrown on them. The best case for EVs is to produce them in the market to be sold or ship them without the batteries installed across the worlds oceans. Getting to an ISO standard on EV battery modules is ongoing and moving charged completed batteries is not a useful use of resources if EV batteries become a commodity.
The worst-case scenario is not a ship with small crews. It is a fire in a car park holding a thousand or more vehicles breaking pit just as people are leaving at the end of a concert.
Is there anyone in the maritime insurance industry that you could interview to discuss the issues surrounding these fires? Would be a very interesting window into what the insurance regulators r thinking about it
How do we know if the ship was not deliberately sunk for economical reasons post point of total loss? Would it be economical better to keep the ship for scrap or go for insurance pay out?
Just wondering about what you said about not being able to disconnect the EV's batteries. As far as I know there are two battery/bus systems in both EVs and Hybrids. The Li battery pack for the drive system, and a regular 12v battery system as on ICE (why reinvent the wheel if 12v systems work and are readily available?). So, I would think you could disconnect the 12v batteries in this case.
I'm not sure Halon would work either. The FAA did a test for use on Li-ion cells in cargo and it was ineffective, "Full-scale tests in a 727 aircraft demonstrated that, even in the presence of Halon 1301, cell-to-cell propagation occurred. The tests also demonstrated that the pressure and off-gassing from the cells could reduce the Halon concentration at an accelerated rate, thereby causing the loss of fire protection earlier then designed." [DOT/FAA/TC-16/37]
Thank you so much for this video! Much anticipated! And quite thorough. I was reminded, when you mentioned "dangerous cargo" in containers, about the Halifax explosion, where a ship carrying explosives (known to its crew) that caught fire in harbor in Halifax, Nova Scotia, during World War I. The crew escaped by lifeboat and got as far away as they could before the explosion occurred. Several videos have been made about this event and are worth checking out. It just goes to show that after over 100 years shipping companies are still knowingly loading ships with dangerous cargo with not too much concern about preventing fires on them.
Comprehensive and understandable. Thank you for posting. My experience from insurance makes me wonder if some of these manufacturers dispose of defective, undesirable, or incomplete vehicles. Also a great way to collect on your used car inventory value without having to sell them. I would be looking at contracts to see who owns what and when they take possession or have their money in. Regarding EV disposal (and other equipment using Lithium chemistry) in land based recycle and scrap operations, current firefighting standards are to keep piles of dirt and a bulldozer available to smother the fire. Not an option at sea. Question... are there ways to selectively flood decks or reprovision for jettison on certain deck levels? Should there be? Thanks again.
They need better battery shut off then just cutting the door jam. They need to easily be able to fit a battery shut off and all battery packs should use some type of fire suppressor in the coolest lines durning shipping.
Thanks for a very informative video. Never realized the extent of ship fires. As a mechanic I can see why the ships crew does not disconnect the negative terminal on batteries as many are now hidden and burried in all kinds of locations .Also some will then have to have anti-theft systems cleared or reprogramed. Possibly some vehicles have compromised electrical systems because of theft. Especially those being shipped to West Africa.
22:00 Not true! Every EV I am aware of requires the 12V battery to engage contactors (solenoids/relays) before the main battery is electrically connected to anything.
Need to distinguish between EV only and Hybrid. According to a study by Autoinsurance EZ, fully electric vehicles have only a 0.03% chance of catching fire, while an internal combustion vehicle has a 1.5% chance. Surprisingly, hybrid vehicles (which have internal combustion and battery power) are the highest risk of all at 3.4%.
You ask about how tofight the fires , one thing to remember when dealing with a enclosed fire is if there is incandescent carbon like from burning plastics, in adding water you create carbon monoxide and hydrogen, "water gas" or "producer gas" , you need to add enough water to cool the incandescent carbon char to stop the reaction, if you cannot cool it, it self feeds the fire with combustible gas, you need high volume of water to flood the fire
Nice summary of past related events. The military have a name for thermal runaway devices it called an incendiary bomb. The question is, something which insurers will be contemplating, just what are the increased odds of thermal runaway when EV's become the predominant car cargo. On land they are already causeing an increase in catastrophic fires. With statistics being down played.
@@j_taylor It does not matter how many ice fires as they are extinguishable. It is the relevant number of battery fires that could occur per vessel voyages. My guess is with a full cargo of EV's of several thousand, not many. Far more than the available new carrier replacement.
15:15 just thinking about... I bettering most of these ships are metric so anything American that turns up will have issues with not only size matching but thread pitch for firefighting. Also, what has Lloyd's said about the insurance coverage of this/these companies? knowing both UK, EU and USA trucking companies they can self-insure so can shipping companies do the same? Maybe do to get around very high rates or insurance-imposed rules?
In electric motorsport the batteries are designed with dowse ports which allow the fire crews to get water directly inside the battery casing. The idea with EV batteries is not necessarily to extinguish the fire, but remove the heat. If these ports were added to regular EVs I imagine they could be connected to a ships fire suppression system during transport.
They don't even have time to disconnect the 12V battery of ICE cars. Someone need to slap the directors of these companies in the face, and then we can work on the details of a solution.
I think it does because I recently read somewhere that EV's are now being shipped with only a 30% charge level to reduce the risk of them having thermal runaway events.
Most of these fires had no EVs on them. When he's talking about batteries - it's the 12 volt systems. Most of the bashing in the media mentions Teslas - but very few Teslas have caught on fire, even fewer recently as Tesla's battery chemistries & designs have improved. BMW & Vauxhalls have terrible history of catching fire from 12 volt systems. Cylinder cells are safe, Iron Phosphate (LFP, over half of new Teslas) are safer still. Large high-nickel pouch cells shouldn't be used in cars, but are used in most non-Teslas that aren't LFP. Short version disconnect 12 volt systems. As for EV fires - they are slow, all that is needed is to keep the battery packs cool. Might take longer but EV fires are less dangerous that petrol/diesel as you can walk away from them.
Yes, there is a direct relationship between level of charge and thermal energy that is released on a defect (obviously it may vary per battery type). The thermal energy is a multitude (I read 3-10 times) of the stored energy, that's what fuels the uncontrollable chain reactions from one defective cell to the hundreds next to it.
Level of charge in a lithium pack has little impact. It is mainly the electrolyte that burns. Reducing the charge level reduces the risk, but once a fire starts, it doesn't really matter.
It would be interesting for someone to study the environmental impact of the burning of several thousand petrol and electrical cars and half of a ship and compare that with the environmental impact of deploying a single deck worth of Halon. 🤔
I work in battery recycling industry and the biggest gap is general public knowledge on LiB safety. The more coverage that is to the point and correct, the greater the public knowledge, the more we can start employing best practices to avoid these issues.
Pulling the mid-pack fuse is almost always redundant If you disconnect the 12v battery in an EV. This is because most EV battery packs have internal contactors that have to be closed by the 12v system before the any other part of the car gets high voltage from the traction battery.
Thank you for your great and informative videos, Sal! Do you have any specific concerns or viewpoints on increasing number of EVs on passenger-carrying cruiseferries, such as used in numbers in Baltic Sea?
Is Grimaldi just having more fires because of poor oversight or is it compounded by them being a specialized company hauling more cars than anyone else?
I'm an electrical engineer and I know a lot about electric vehicles. I have no idea what they mean by "disconnecting the battery". Disconnecting the battery is something that the vehicle does normally when turned off. There is a wire that can be cut in an emergency to disable the vehicle. But I have no idea how one could disconnect a battery in a modern EV, unless you remove the battery which is very difficult.
It’s obvious that you know nothing about EVs. And it became obvious as soon as you said “I know a lot about electric vehicles”. People who know a lot about something don’t have to lead with that announcement 😂. EVs….. do have a battery that you can disconnect….. surprise. Oh and guess what, many times it’s the same lead acid battery that gas cars use. Surprise. Oh oh and just wait till you find out it does the same kinds of things that it does in gas cars. Wow. There are so many people infected with Dunning Kruger disease.
Hi I have idea cover every ev car in a fire proof cover like the fire brigade's use. If I'm correct solid steel floor shouldn't get to damaged but I don't know how long them covers last.
This former AB says everything is skeleton crewed in the merchant marine so if the stevedores don’t disconnect the batteries then it’s not going to happen. How’s a crew with 6 ABs going to disconnect thousands of car batteries?
Easiest way to sort this is to ship out batteries and for each country to produce/install batteries once in the target countr6, that's the only was to prevent EV fires
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I was aboard the MV Tellus in June, 2001, en-route to Europe. Three days out of Charleston, SC, the fire alarm sounded. I, and a fellow U.S. Army soldier took our station on the bridge (as we were considered passengers and our mission was to escort 20 M-1 tanks to Bremerhaven, Germany (our final destination)). We watched as the whole crew fought the fire centered on the port quarter, first level down. It took some time, but the fire was taken under control. The next day, the third mate explained that we were very close to abandoning ship because the carbon dioxide system was not working as it should, and the chief engineer was on satellite phone back to United States asking the fire suppression experts what to do. He did get it working, thankfully, and we sailed directly to Bremerhaven, Germany where forensics determined that the fire was started by one vehicle. 125 vehicles either burned completely, or were smoke damaged.
EV started it ?
@graantmnz doubt it in 2001. Probably a connected POV
@@graantmnz an EV in 2001? Come on.
Well, no. Just no. What EV was available back then?
Fossil fuel cars burn much more often than EVs by the way. Count it by the number of cars or by the miles driven...
No EV to start this fire. Amazing that it happened at all.
@@richard--s Yes.
But they are also easier to deal with in event of a fire.
Back in the 90's milk floats in the UK were EV. Large Lead acid batteries.
They don't burn uncontrollable like Lithium though.
Grimaldi not following their own procedures is really common, on all sorts of companies. Most put those procedures in place while making zero changes what the productivity targets are. (Requiring every battery to be manually disconnected but not budgeting any TIME to actually do so) The new procedures are actually there to allow the company to shift blame to employees. Create an impossible goal and blame those under you for not reaching it.
The biggest risk are the EV vehicles. Car carriers regardless if it's rail, truck or ship would never carry fully fueled vehicles. In the case of an EV that is what they are doing. Disconnecting at least the ground on their main battery needs to be a no-brainer. With that in mind there should be a quick access disconnect for emergencies and for shipping. Even if it is just just the ground.
Having to manually disconnect every car battery is a logistical nightmare. It's going to delay loading and offloading immensely. I don't know what the solution is.
Spot on.
Rendering every EV safe according to the manual takes a lot of time. Especially when dealing with different makes and models.
Loading and unloading of these behemoths is done as quickly as possible.
Safety is massively neglected.
As soon as insurance cost rises accordingly they will finally fix it.
Who is burning the flag
Disconnecting the batteries referred to fossil fuel cars, to their 12V battery.
An EV fire in a subterranean parking garage in Australia caused cobalt poisoning in 2 firefighters leading to their permanent disability. This is a big problem that needs to be addressed as we go forward with an EV cutover.
Densely storing vehicles is generally a bad idea but desperation is the mother of invention.
Newer battery chemistries have none or very little cobalt. I hope they make using cobalt illegal for large batteries like cars or home storage. Just like we don't use cadmium anymore. Nasty stuff.
for one i dont want to be told what i am should be driving. these things wont "save the planet" by any means. that's bull. the people that do drive EV's, proper safety procedures regarding charging, manufacturing, and transportation of such vehicles MUST be put in place.
@@andrewdonohue1853 it creates new misery and huge environment damage, in Congo they destroy entire ecosystem for mining and even kids are working in illegal mines!
Just ignore the issue we ignore all the people that die from car / power station pollution
Hi there!
I’ve only just discovered your channel, when searching for details on the Freemantle Highway on fire off the coast of the Netherlands. In the early 80’s I myself was a marine engineer on deep sea vessels and cruise ships for P&O and Princess cruises. Indeed ship fires are your worst fear when being at sea especially working down the engine room.
Your video and explanations are most interesting and well presented by yourself.
I have now subscribed and looking forward to many contributions in the near future.
Keep up the good work! Cheers Dave Kramer (British and living in the Netherlands)
Thanks Dave!
@wgowshipping I was trying to reply to Dave, who may see my comment here, I wanted to tell him that he had found a Great channel and that Captain Sal was The real deal, and full of useful information in regards to Fire Fighting of all sorts. Hope That you're having a good day Captain Sal. Keep up the great work Captain. And that clip of The Backdraft that Injured the Jacksonville Firefighters was downright Scary and shocking, In it's Power, and seeing the debris that was launched in the Shockwave. Happy to know that no fatalities were suffered, but it definitely may have caused some career ending injuries.
Hi Dave, whereabouts are you? - we live in Friesland, im also Brit.
@@__Andrew_
Hi ya! Living in the ‘Wild West’ close to The Hague 🤩
THANKS very much for your thoughtful insights into shipping issues. Your background, knowledge, and experience greatly help the general "public" to understand these important issues.
So obviously these car carrier companies are doing there best to meet schedules and the time required to disconnect and reconnect batteries is seen as a hindrance to doing that. I watched a video of the loading process and no hoods were shown being opened at any time. They also showed numerous other types of vehicles being loaded such as farming and construction equipment. How time consuming is it to disconnect/reconnect batteries in vehicles like this compared to cars?
Excellent video. Really appreciate this.
Heavy vehicles are usually fitted with isolating switches near their batteries which makes it easy to disconnect (without having to physically disconnect a battery). Maybe new cars need to be compulsory fitted with these also. Not sure what they do with EV cars and their large battery as the problems seem to be the battery itself spontaneously combusting.
@@dingoeatswolf3663 Ev batteries do NOT spontaneously combust.
Battery fires in EV's are normally caused by a short causing an extremely high discarge rate. This causes very high heat which can cause a thermal runaway.
@@Agnemons They do and they will look up Lithium Battery Dendrites. They can and will ignite on their own. Tho it is not common but it is not rare either.
@@Agnemons so does the short happen in the battery cells or in the car’s circuits?
No more difficult than a a car, you just disconnect one terminal from the battery.
I am a retired chemist.
EV's and their large lithium batteries are scary and a terrible danger when on fire. There is not an easy fix.
Thank you for your video. Very informative.
Loading ramps sometimes damages the EV battery because it is located in the lower part of the car. Ref past video.
Oh, alright Mr Chemist now reduced to apparently no qualifications since you want to emphasize retired. How exactly do you "fix" this not so easily then? How do you disable this massive chemical energy store reading to combust into an exothermic blaze the moment you look at it the wrong way?
I think I've spotted the once EV owner here. It's rather cute how you want to wave around your scientific qualifications while simultaneously misleading people on the dangers any highschooler could correct you on.
@@oldmech619 ev's just randomly erupt into flames. thats all there is to it. they are potential bombs. each and every one of them. gas cars usually only catch on fire for an actual reason. like an accident or someone smoking when fueling it up . ev's will literally burst into flames for basically no reason.
More dangerous than a full tank of gasoline 100%
Will discharging EV before loading to vessel fix this problem? To the level when battery contains something like 10-20km of remaining distance.
When I shipped my car, a Honda Prelude, from Toronto to Vancouver, via airplane, the car had to be almost empty of fuel and the batterie was disconnected, after loading onto the B747. That was in 1982, so disconnecting a battery while being "shipped", by plane, boat or train, should be standard.
With EVs that will make no difference.
You shipped a Honda Prelude from TO to Vancouver by PLANE? Why? I mean, what did that cost and why did you put that much expense into such a car? I assume someone else was paying to move you.
@@smgdfcmfah it costded me at that time $700.- plus I was on the same flight and was able to pick up my car a little later that day, plus fill the car to the rim with my stuff. By train it would have taken 3 weeks, the car needed to be empty and the shocks would have been shot (I did not know that, the rail company told me that when I called for info) plus the cost was $600.-. So by plane was a way smarter option. Its an option most people never think about. My car just made it size wise.
@@scaryfakevirus Yes it makes a difference. the presenter was incorrect when he said it was not possible to disconnect the battery in an EV.
EVs still have 12V batteries. Without the 12V battery the EV is dead, because 12V is needed to close the contactors for the high voltage. You can "boost" and EV with an ICE vehicle, and vice-versa.
@@jamesphillips2285 I wasn't taking about whether they can be disconnected or not. Lithium ion batteries don't require any connection to spontaneously combust. However, lead acid batteries are not a problem if disconnected.
I have a Prius and there's a big orange clip you can pull out that completely isolates the battery. It isn't obvious how to get to it, lift the back deck where the spare tire is and it's there. They need to train their loaders better. All fire departments here have done the training since they respond to vehicle accidents and probably tow truck operators. (BTW.. my car is NiMH, not Li batteries)
NiMH batteries are much less volatile.
The problem is every car manufacturer does it differently.
@@grahamstrouse1165 It's the 12 volts that cause the fires in most cases.
@@jhb9746 I wasn't thinking that they would wait until a fire to pull the plugs, but to make pulling the plugs part of the loading process. Although, if all the cars around it are burning hot I'm sure the energy in the battery would find away to join the party some way... plugs in place or not. It would prevent the ev from being the start to the fire.
@@grahamstrouse1165 Panasonic got sued for developing batteries for the electric RAV4. Chevron bought up the EV1 battery patents in order to delay the electric car by 2-0 years. That is why EVs now use laptop batteries. It is to work around patents owned by oil companies.
Professor Dr Sal, this was a very “TOASTY” episode. Your firefighter experience was invaluable for insights. My heart goes out to those who lost their lives.
Grimaldi says every battery must cut off an secure it, but they also know that it not works because of they scheduled the time for the loading. When a accident or a fire accused they treat it down to the ship crew.
🤔 As a side issue with used car transport; is anyone checking to see if these cars are stolen? We've had a huge problem with car theft rings here in Philadelphia. One car heist job was literally of a dozen Kia and hyundais straight from the port of Philadelphia lot. Another Big heist a few weeks ago were of cars straight from airport rental facilities lots. They literally came in, hotwire the cars and pointed a gun at the gate attendant and drove away with like a dozen cars. It's been said that a lot of these vehicles are being shipped overseas. How much customs oversight is going on with the transport of these vehicles? Even before we get to the issues about fire? 🔥 🚒
US Customs can't control the US borders from thousands of people entering illegally everyday. Why would anyone think US Customs has any ability whatsoever to control what leaves the USA?
Yes, recent story of a bunch of stolen cars found on the Baltimore docks.
@@SteamCrane I mean if they're not checking basic things like batteries on the cars. What are the chances they're checking VIN numbers?
Great channel. Love the in-depth coverage.
Much appreciated!
The High voltage battery in EVs and Hybrids can be isolated as well as the auxiliary 12v battery. It does of course mean there's two batteries to disconnect. On finishing loading the Battery disconnection should surely be done by the stevedore same as the lashings on container ships.
To go round a big multideck ship by the available crew, disconnecting batteries is a tall order, there may be 22 in the crew but not all are available, they have other duties to attend to before sailing. They will be doing the ISPS's checks for stowaways, and items like holdalls that shouldn't be there, (does mean even the Engine Room procedures have to stop as the ER staff get involved as well). All whilst the terminal operator is pushing to get the ship of their berth so they can get the next one in.
You need only disconnect the 12V battery. The Main battery will then be disconnected automatically. EVs are designed not to connect the high voltage without the 12V present to energize the contactors.
re: "the Battery disconnection should surely be done by the stevedore". unfortunately no, not if said stevedore is looking to AVOID ELECTROCUTION and has a desire to return home to their loved ones. the consumer "errs" when they equate the relatively safe 12V system (though not to be confused with 100% safe) as being the same as the high voltage 400V-1000V system of the traction battery. yeah, ask any qualified Electrician or "Sparky" and they will tell you there's a reason why every electrical panel we've ever seen in our lives has a clearly marked label on the outside that says "DANGER HIGH VOLTAGE".
In a world of info tainment it’s great just to learn about real events and an industry that effects everyone
Thank you so much this was great information I did not know the amount of car carrier fires we're so frequent great information great Channel
Jesus Sal... That backdraft explosion was extremely impressive. 9:35 Condolences to the injured firemen.
It is terrifying because what was described in the ship.
@@wgowshipping The amount of sheet metal debris blown out...
@@rtqiiThey described the sound as a jet engine firing up before the first blew out the deck and up and down the stairwell onto 5 deck, where the ramp was located.
@@wgowshipping 😲
Blows my mind professionals made such a mistake. I learned of the danger of letting fresh oxygen in a close space from a film with Kurt Russel: “Backdraft” 1991. 😁
Sal, a great video on car carrier fires! This seems to be too common a problem to be ignored.
As an engineer, I want to go one step further, beyond describing and analyzing what’s happening; that is to come up with solutions.
This would be my proposal for an increased fire safety on car carriers:
EV fires seem to be the greatest challenge, as they cannot be extinguished. So the fire has to be contained and it’s propagation stopped in order to limit damage and save the ship. To achieve this, these measures are necessary:
- the cargo space where cars are stored is divided into smaller enclosed compartments, several per deck.
- a powerful sprinkler system, operated by sea water, is in place, to absorb heat and prevent further ignition of other vehicles.
- overboard drainage to discharge the water from the sprinkler system to avoid accumulation of water to an extent that would endanger the ship’s stability.
Of course that comes at a price, in terms of financial investment, reduced space and payload, and additional equipment. But it could prevent a total loss of ship and cargo, and limit the economic loss and the damage to an extent that can be repaired.
What are your thoughts on this?
EVs generally have a "fuse" you can pull that detaches the traction battery. You can also usually detach the 12V battery and that will stop power going to the contactors that enable the traction battery's output. Side benefit is to prevent anything going wrong with all of the 12V parts of the car.
True, but the problem with EVs isn't the same as that with regular cars. In regular cars, a spark or short will cause something to catch fire. Disconnect the battery and you eliminate the spark. EVs are different. It is the batteries themselves that create the problem. They burn. It matters not if they're connected to the rest of the car or not.
Lithium batteries are far less likely to catch fire if they are completely disconnected.
@@Inkling777 The chance of an EV battery spontaneously combusting is mind-numbingly small. The majority of issues happen while the car is charging or driven.
The problem still stand IF another source than the EV itself cause the battery of the EV to catch fire, you can't put it out.
@@micke3035 The solution to that would be to mandate that EVs can't be shipped mixed in with other vehicles, but rather need to be isolated in some way that gives protection against fire getting to the EVs like perhaps a specific deck that is sealed off from the others or something. (Which would not be perfect, of course, but the goal would be to buy time to get the fire under control before it could reach the EV batteries and get them going.)
Thanks!
I appreciate your focus is on shipping and you are giving the facts about electric vehicles as just one of the many elements of shipboard fires. John Cadogan, the Australian car expert has a lot to say about the Fremantle Highway or "Dutch Oven" as he calls it. For a no BS analysis of the dangers of evs he is your man. However, you must be warned that he does use strong language, but he is an Aussie. Thanks for your informative videos.
Aussie, strong language. Redundant.
@@SteamCrane True, but this is the 21st century🤪
Great retrospective! I was looking forward to this. A rather scary situation for sure.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Really important for any ship powder, fire fighters, and ship crew to be aware of. Now, engineers ne d to find solutions. Thanks, Sal.
Ship owner
An interesting way to handle lithium battery fires is total submersion in water. Better yet salt water as it will slow discharge any remaining intact cells. More importantly, a mass of water greater than the mass of the battery will absorb the massive amount of output heat AND prevent gas discharges from flashing to flames in presence of oxygen.
Given we are on a ship, could the EVs be placed in an emergency lower deck which can be flooded with salt water? It would limit the number of EVs carried until safety standards with the cars themselves increase.
The problem is that some cars have had to be left in water for _a month_ before they stopped re-igniting, which obviously is problematic as you're trying to get them off the ship.
Due to their chemical composition, Lithium-ion (Li-Ion) batteries release oxygen when they heat up, and therefore, when they catch fire, it is impossible to smother the flames with water or foam even if the entire battery is completely submersed in water or deprived of oxygen-containing air.
@@datepalm1969 It depends on the chemistry. EVs should move away from Cobolt Oxide to Iron Phosphate.
They don't contain oxygen and they don't produce anywhere near as much heat in operation. They are able to sustain a 38mOhm short circuit and not breach cells.
When they do pop they spit non-flammable gas... still damn hot though so it can ignite combustables near by, but not long tongues of flames.
@@keith6706
Max time period is a week. And that's only for safety and ease, not because it's necessary. As opposed to ICE vehicles which will explode on the spot and send shrapnel in all directions.
@@datepalm1969
Care to back that up with a credible source, suspected liar? It's not just possible, it's been done and more products for it are out weekly.
I HAVE put out Lithium fires with water, which you claimed is impossible. Just need more of it.
Another very interesting video. Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
Do you know if any of the car decks have cameras? Would be interesting to see the progression of events.
Wonder what naval architects current thinking is on new build Roll-on/roll-off MV?
PS - Seems MV could potentially use FM200 or HI-FOG systems that are in use at data centers.
Now foam systems are installed the foam (AFFF) is mixed with seawater and air and is filling the space, the result is high cooling effect and AFFF blocks the fire triangle so it cannot sustain fire, after effect all electronics in the same area are damaged.
Seems like the jacksonville firemen didnt know what they were doing.
Another thing to note is the majority of times you have normal land based fire fighters called out to ship fires they often flood the ships and sink it due to excessive water use. You have to bear in mind the weight and free surface effect of the water being pumped in via the hoses
Also, what are the statistics on how common these fires are on RORO ships? How many fires vs how many total ship crossings on an annual basis? Are they statistically increasing or just more coverage of them?
hope you will keep us updated about the freemantle highway, now that its in port, lets hope there will be some info from investigation
How do these shippers, and the port staff, allow so many stolen vehicles to get past Customs? This is political and corrupt.
You’re surprised?
Is it corrupt? Is it political?
I suspect you mean: "is it politically corrupt?" Maybe in some isolated areas. I doubt that's a universal cause.
To the unasked question: "Is it criminal?" Yes, certainly! That does not mean it's politically corrupt. Some politicians may be criminals, but not all criminals are politicians.
Your thought process is interesting.
@@77thTrombone - You do know the difference between government and organized crime is the being organized bit.
@@nmccw3245 good one for a tee-shirt.
@@77thTrombone Politics concern state bureaucracies, not just politicians. Reminder: there are several branches of government, and all of them have many bureaucrats assisting people actually elected if branch is elected.
And it's the bureaucrats that get corrupted in cases like stolen vehicles getting on board illegally. Not politicians. So yes, political. No, probably not about politicians.
Excellent channel, I learn something every time I watch.
Excellent as always. Keep em coming thanks
One quick comment. EVs have two batteries. The high-voltage battery and a 12V battery. Typically when the car is parked, the HV battery is electrically isolated from the rest of the car - this is really for the safety of any mechanics that might be working on the car while it is off. The 12V battery drives all of the normal accessories (radio, lights, etc) that you find in any car including keyless entry.
Given that there is no alternator, the car may top off the 12V battery as needed from the HV battery, but if the car is parked, this probably won't need to happen very often.
When one wants to turn on an EV, the energy from the 12V battery is used to close the relays that connect the HV battery to the rest of the car.
Hi Sal,
With the number of fires on vehicle transport ships it won’t be long before the insurance industry will be mandating changes to the ships to handle electric vehicle fires. I can imagine Evs being parked around the perimeter of one specific deck so that they can be ejected into the water in case of fire. Or I can imagine high density wet sprinklers on specific decks. It will be cheaper to modify the ships than the complete losses we are now seeing.
The problem with sprinklers is you end up sinking or setting the ship up for years of refit even if the fire is put out within the first hour. You need to flood a deck with 3cms of water per minute to have any hope of keeping the fire contained, In the first ten minutes you reduce the buoyancy safety factor of most of these boats by 30%. These fires burn for 40 minutes with near unlimited water thrown on them.
The best case for EVs is to produce them in the market to be sold or ship them without the batteries installed across the worlds oceans. Getting to an ISO standard on EV battery modules is ongoing and moving charged completed batteries is not a useful use of resources if EV batteries become a commodity.
That raises the question though, what happens once EVs become the majority of cars.
@@Quasihamster there be less fires - NISAN and Telsa been shipping EV cars since 2008 and they never had a EV fire
@@Quasihamsterthey won’t. EVs are a fad
@Mikosch2 imagine being in a parking garage when one of these go up. EVs can burn underwater for days
The worst-case scenario is not a ship with small crews. It is a fire in a car park holding a thousand or more vehicles breaking pit just as people are leaving at the end of a concert.
Is there anyone in the maritime insurance industry that you could interview to discuss the issues surrounding these fires? Would be a very interesting window into what the insurance regulators r thinking about it
Is the disconecting of batteries because the batteries trugger the engine to start to charge the battery at least in the older hibred cars ?
THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE' AND CHANNEL LOVE THE VIDEO'S.....
Could a big non flammable blanket been mandatory to cover each Electrical Vehicule to prevent any uncontrollable fire ?
good point
I think before Christmas you will be at 200,000 subs. Keep it up 👍
On passanger RORO car ferries no one disconnects the batteries, yet not heard of many fires?
Euroferry Europa in 2022 killed about a dozen.
Looks like they safely got the Fremantle Highway into port this morning.
How do we know if the ship was not deliberately sunk for economical reasons post point of total loss? Would it be economical better to keep the ship for scrap or go for insurance pay out?
Great point!
Fascinating. Thank you from Manhattan
Sal, I think the insurance companies are either going to raise rates or implement restrictions. What are your thoughts?
Refuse to insure.
Both.
Just wondering about what you said about not being able to disconnect the EV's batteries. As far as I know there are two battery/bus systems in both EVs and Hybrids. The Li battery pack for the drive system, and a regular 12v battery system as on ICE (why reinvent the wheel if 12v systems work and are readily available?). So, I would think you could disconnect the 12v batteries in this case.
I'm not sure Halon would work either. The FAA did a test for use on Li-ion cells in cargo and it was ineffective, "Full-scale tests in a 727 aircraft demonstrated that, even in the presence of Halon 1301, cell-to-cell propagation occurred. The tests also demonstrated that the pressure and off-gassing from the cells could reduce the Halon concentration at an accelerated rate, thereby causing the loss of fire protection earlier then designed." [DOT/FAA/TC-16/37]
Thank you so much for this video! Much anticipated! And quite thorough. I was reminded, when you mentioned "dangerous cargo" in containers, about the Halifax explosion, where a ship carrying explosives (known to its crew) that caught fire in harbor in Halifax, Nova Scotia, during World War I. The crew escaped by lifeboat and got as far away as they could before the explosion occurred. Several videos have been made about this event and are worth checking out. It just goes to show that after over 100 years shipping companies are still knowingly loading ships with dangerous cargo with not too much concern about preventing fires on them.
You mentioning unhooking the Negative Post of the battery at 21:21
Why the Negative Post rather than the Positive Post? Does it make any difference?
Comprehensive and understandable. Thank you for posting. My experience from insurance makes me wonder if some of these manufacturers dispose of defective, undesirable, or incomplete vehicles. Also a great way to collect on your used car inventory value without having to sell them. I would be looking at contracts to see who owns what and when they take possession or have their money in. Regarding EV disposal (and other equipment using Lithium chemistry) in land based recycle and scrap operations, current firefighting standards are to keep piles of dirt and a bulldozer available to smother the fire. Not an option at sea. Question... are there ways to selectively flood decks or reprovision for jettison on certain deck levels? Should there be? Thanks again.
There is not. The flooding is limited to CO2.
@@wgowshipping thank you for your reply. Probably something we'll have figured out in a decade and wonder why it took us so long.
They need better battery shut off then just cutting the door jam. They need to easily be able to fit a battery shut off and all battery packs should use some type of fire suppressor in the coolest lines durning shipping.
Disconnecting the 12V battery will open the contactors for the traction battery.
you can always tell when Sal is heading over to the tiki lounge after production.
sharp dressed man.
Not sure I can say I "enjoyed" it but it was VERY enlightening. Thanks for info, Sal!
Out of curiosity, was the channel name "Ship happens" taken when you created the channel?
Fire fighting in enclosed spaces is the worst of the worst in dangerous situations,
I saw a photo earlier today of the Fremantle Highway now docked.
Disconnecting 12v battery in EV still disconects all but the main battery internals like BMS.
Tesla has had no ship fires afaik?
About used vehicles, this also apply to car ferry transporting cars and passengers between islands. Is ther in fact a lot of car ferries fires?
Thanks for a very informative video. Never realized the extent of ship fires.
As a mechanic I can see why the ships crew does not disconnect the negative terminal on batteries as many are now hidden and burried in all kinds of locations .Also some will then have to have anti-theft systems cleared or reprogramed. Possibly some vehicles have compromised electrical systems because of theft. Especially those being shipped to West Africa.
I just saw the Fremantle get tower into Eemshaven harbour, working on the quaside opposite it
Ships, now cars, Sal, time for aircraft and train fires. You're the man!
Sal's channel is focused on shipping, as per its title. Other videos discuss aircraft and train fires.
22:00 Not true!
Every EV I am aware of requires the 12V battery to engage contactors (solenoids/relays) before the main battery is electrically connected to anything.
Need to distinguish between EV only and Hybrid.
According to a study by Autoinsurance EZ, fully electric vehicles have only a 0.03% chance of catching fire, while an internal combustion vehicle has a 1.5% chance. Surprisingly, hybrid vehicles (which have internal combustion and battery power) are the highest risk of all at 3.4%.
If you disconnect the 12v standard car battery that is in a hybrid or ev it will trip the relay for the main battery isolating it
I learned so much here rather than broadcast news.
You ask about how tofight the fires , one thing to remember when dealing with a enclosed fire is if there is incandescent carbon like from burning plastics, in adding water you create carbon monoxide and hydrogen, "water gas" or "producer gas" , you need to add enough water to cool the incandescent carbon char to stop the reaction, if you cannot cool it, it self feeds the fire with combustible gas, you need high volume of water to flood the fire
Nice summary of past related events.
The military have a name for thermal runaway devices it called an incendiary bomb.
The question is, something which insurers will be contemplating, just what are the increased odds of thermal runaway when EV's become the predominant car cargo. On land they are already causeing an increase in catastrophic fires. With statistics being down played.
What are the statistics on EV fires versus ICE vehicle fires?
@@j_taylor It does not matter how many ice fires as they are extinguishable. It is the relevant number of battery fires that could occur per vessel voyages. My guess is with a full cargo of EV's of several thousand, not many. Far more than the available new carrier replacement.
i miss seeing the fire boat in lake union seattle
Will BB-62's Drydock announcement be in the next weekly news video?
This is likely to increase in frequency!
The steps that need to be taken to reduce the risk levels need to be taken now.
Car spontaneously catch on fire in land too. really mysterious
Not really. Car fires have been happening since cars were first invented. Electric spark plus oil or gasoline, and you get fire.
15:15 just thinking about...
I bettering most of these ships are metric so anything American that turns up will have issues with not only size matching but thread pitch for firefighting.
Also, what has Lloyd's said about the insurance coverage of this/these companies?
knowing both UK, EU and USA trucking companies they can self-insure so can shipping companies do the same?
Maybe do to get around very high rates or insurance-imposed rules?
Probably another reason for the U.S. to go metric and join the rest of the world in the 21st century.
Great video. Query: what's the response of the Insurance industry to this series of fires?
In electric motorsport the batteries are designed with dowse ports which allow the fire crews to get water directly inside the battery casing. The idea with EV batteries is not necessarily to extinguish the fire, but remove the heat. If these ports were added to regular EVs I imagine they could be connected to a ships fire suppression system during transport.
They don't even have time to disconnect the 12V battery of ICE cars. Someone need to slap the directors of these companies in the face, and then we can work on the details of a solution.
Does the level of charge in the EVs make a significant difference?
None ,
I think it does because I recently read somewhere that EV's are now being shipped with only a 30% charge level to reduce the risk of them having thermal runaway events.
Most of these fires had no EVs on them. When he's talking about batteries - it's the 12 volt systems. Most of the bashing in the media mentions Teslas - but very few Teslas have caught on fire, even fewer recently as Tesla's battery chemistries & designs have improved. BMW & Vauxhalls have terrible history of catching fire from 12 volt systems. Cylinder cells are safe, Iron Phosphate (LFP, over half of new Teslas) are safer still. Large high-nickel pouch cells shouldn't be used in cars, but are used in most non-Teslas that aren't LFP. Short version disconnect 12 volt systems. As for EV fires - they are slow, all that is needed is to keep the battery packs cool. Might take longer but EV fires are less dangerous that petrol/diesel as you can walk away from them.
Yes, there is a direct relationship between level of charge and thermal energy that is released on a defect (obviously it may vary per battery type). The thermal energy is a multitude (I read 3-10 times) of the stored energy, that's what fuels the uncontrollable chain reactions from one defective cell to the hundreds next to it.
Level of charge in a lithium pack has little impact. It is mainly the electrolyte that burns.
Reducing the charge level reduces the risk, but once a fire starts, it doesn't really matter.
My 2017 Natique G23 boat had a battery-disconnect switch that took about half a second to turn🤷🏼♂️
It would be interesting for someone to study the environmental impact of the burning of several thousand petrol and electrical cars and half of a ship and compare that with the environmental impact of deploying a single deck worth of Halon. 🤔
I work in battery recycling industry and the biggest gap is general public knowledge on LiB safety. The more coverage that is to the point and correct, the greater the public knowledge, the more we can start employing best practices to avoid these issues.
Very interesting, thank you.
can the vehicals be shiped seperatly from the batteries ?
They are usually built around the battery. The battery is under the floor.
You can actually disconnect the high voltage battery on EVs. The "switch" is harder to access, but not a huge deal.
Pulling the mid-pack fuse is almost always redundant If you disconnect the 12v battery in an EV. This is because most EV battery packs have internal contactors that have to be closed by the 12v system before the any other part of the car gets high voltage from the traction battery.
@@martylawson1638 it halves the voltage and makes it less likely to combust because of battery or cable faults
One article I found indicated that the GRAND EUROPA was an arson fire, with the 3/M and 2 AB's arrested for the crime.
Always look forward to you video drops❤
Thank you for your great and informative videos, Sal!
Do you have any specific concerns or viewpoints on increasing number of EVs on passenger-carrying cruiseferries, such as used in numbers in Baltic Sea?
wow the force behind the smoke
Is Grimaldi just having more fires because of poor oversight or is it compounded by them being a specialized company hauling more cars than anyone else?
An excellent analysis of the problem.
I'm an electrical engineer and I know a lot about electric vehicles. I have no idea what they mean by "disconnecting the battery". Disconnecting the battery is something that the vehicle does normally when turned off. There is a wire that can be cut in an emergency to disable the vehicle. But I have no idea how one could disconnect a battery in a modern EV, unless you remove the battery which is very difficult.
It’s obvious that you know nothing about EVs. And it became obvious as soon as you said “I know a lot about electric vehicles”. People who know a lot about something don’t have to lead with that announcement 😂. EVs….. do have a battery that you can disconnect….. surprise. Oh and guess what, many times it’s the same lead acid battery that gas cars use. Surprise. Oh oh and just wait till you find out it does the same kinds of things that it does in gas cars. Wow. There are so many people infected with Dunning Kruger disease.
Hi I have idea cover every ev car in a fire proof cover like the fire brigade's use. If I'm correct solid steel floor shouldn't get to damaged but I don't know how long them covers last.
Well done Sal !!
So if you close it off try to smother with co2 in a sealed deck...... why exactly would you reopen it to bring the o2 back in?
You shouldn't!
What kind of training do these fire fighters have that open and enter a CO2 flooded fire?
Does not look like there will be any smoke damaged cars for sale from that ship.
Sorting out to salvage a lithium iron battery. Any suggestions?
This former AB says everything is skeleton crewed in the merchant marine so if the stevedores don’t disconnect the batteries then it’s not going to happen. How’s a crew with 6 ABs going to disconnect thousands of car batteries?
I presume insurance is invalid as safety procedures were ignored?
a question i have is. were those fires actually started by an electric vehicle ?
halon or CO2 does the exact same thing.
We don't know about Felicity or Sincerity Ace as they sank. I identified causes as best we know for the others.
Easiest way to sort this is to ship out batteries and for each country to produce/install batteries once in the target countr6, that's the only was to prevent EV fires
The ship op north is docked in a city call Groningen, in the Netherlands. That’s how they got on the ship, it’s was announced by local news.