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We Greeks don't expect other peoples to teach us our history!! (history, even the word is Greek) we know who Alexander was, who was his grandfather, his father, his mother, his cousin and his whole family!! Alexander conquered almost all of Asia and left Greek inscriptions everywhere in the Greek language!!
But I don’t understand we everybody cares about our heroes and our language and our history!!! Take care about your heroes please ( Spider-Man, Batman,etc etc)
I have my own theory on this...😊 I studied ancient Greek for 10 years and I lived in Greece for 6 years.😮 In ancient Greece, ancient Greek language, there were no such words as homosexual or heterosexual, because the very notion didn't exist. Everyone had anal sex Both men and women of culture, hence Theater.🎉 Because anal sex makes you having a look in yourself from outside and it kills the animal inside you. That's why Greeks called all the people who didn't have anal sex : barbarians.... And that's why they had a theater... PS: Greek people nowadays really hate the truth because the orthodox church hates Hellenism and closed the academy of Platon in 529 and all the gymnasia and killed 30 000 teachers to make sure nobody is going to learn how to read and write, that was in 532 and the dark middle ages started. People even started to believe earth was flat, before everyone knew it was a sphere. So that's why I don't live in Greece anymore, those people have real issues. Since 2010 one Million of Greeks moved abroad because they can't stand those fascist Greeks that live there now, the majority of them.... Platon wrote that everyone is born a barbarian and that it takes many years of morphosis to become a Hellen. Nowadays those fascists in Greece say that you can be born Hellen 😂 Lmao, one of the most stupid nation I ever lived in 😂
To the fellow Greeks who got clickbaited, no worries, YES the Macedonians were a northern Greek people and YES they spoke a rough but intelligible dialect of Greek. The overwhelming majority of archaeological evidence supports that, and as far as Demosthenes is concerned, the words of one of their Athenian sworn enemies should be taken with a huge grain of salt. That's all.
And please, don't bring our confused northern neighbors into this or be rude to @polyMATHY_Luke, he asks a fair question and provides a fair and balanced analysis. There's nothing wrong with asking a question.
Indeed; in fact it’s possible that the Macedonian dialect was perfectly intelligible to the southern Greeks and that the latter were just being silly. We have very little testimony of any kind. But if we go by the Pella curse tablet it was just Greek
@@polyMATHY_Lukeexcept pela tablet another great archaeological finding was the Derveni papyrus that is classified as the oldest book in Europe and again the greek language in this papyrus is some weird dialect .
@@polyMATHY_LukeI think that some Athenian,for example,accounts were intentionally making seem like the Macedonian dialect was further apart from other Greek dialects,just because they were resentful and didn't like the Macedonians or their ruling system
Every bad Greek was a barbarian (same still goes for today, unfortunately they are the majority these days... 400 years of Turkish occupation harmed the country immensely. But I think we are getting somewhere).
@@georgenic64 That's complicated to be honest. It's kinda bad to blame the Turkish Occupation, many Greeks (Romans at the time) were prestigious and fluent economically (especially the ones in Anatolia). The ones you are referring to ironically were the Romans of Rumelia and of course the Arvanites (whom were Greek speaking populations from Modern day Albania). Most of the Eastern influences were mostly blamed on the Turkish Occupation when the Hellenic Republic was created in 1830 in favor to the Western Hellenic perception. But what if i told you that the Greeks always had Eastern influences and always called the Westerners Barbarians? 🤔.
@@demetriusstiakkogiannakes1326 What the fuck are you talking about ?? Of course back then the Western Europeans were barbarians. Question is what happens now… what you say about the Arvanites and the Greeks from Rumeli is completely irrelevant
@iumaser3219 Sorry but what you say is wrong. The non-Greeks were indeed barbarians and the word had the meaning back then as uncivilized (how can it not be like this when they were living in caves like the primitive man and the Greeks were exceling in arts, science, complex architecture and many many more...). That is of course the reason why the Roman Empire was Hellinised in the later years, cause everyhting magestic in science, literature etc... was produced by the Greeks
Only Greeks could participate in the Ancient Greek Olympics. Macedonians participated in the Ancient Greek Olympics. Therefore, Macedonians were Greek.
You seem to not know history: A) Macedonians did not get to participate. B) Only the royal household did, AFTER they provided proof they descended from Greece.
@@Aleks_Ovski416 You have no idea what you're talking about...Kliton of Macedon was the Olympian of the stadium race in the 113th Olympiad and he was definitely not royalty...btw you're not "Macedonians" but confused Bulgarians
@@apmoy70 btw, the academic world doesn't agree, cope harder and go learn about genetics and Balkan history. Greeks are mixed with Turks and Slavs haha cope.
7:00 In modern day Greece, there are at least 5 dialects (from Crete to Macedonia) that a non local Greek will be hard pressed to understand the spoken language , so the premise of this video holds true to this day.
@@d3r4g45 Well, if you are a representative sample of the area in question it would be a hard case indeed. Joking aside, you totally missed that there were political reasons for the name calling and any differences in language didn't really matter. If he couldn't make a case about the way they speak, it would be about gods or social habits anything that would unite his audience against a common "alien enemy". It is standard practice that is widely used to this day by politicians around the world.
@@d3r4g45 1) The ancient Greeks called other Greeks barbarians on multiple occasions. They did so for political reasons. 2) Thucydides considered the Macedonians to be Greek. 3) Herodotus also considered the Macedonians to be Greek. 4) They did prove in court that they were Greek. 5) The Persians also considered the Macedonians to be Greek. 6) All epigraphic, topographic and numismatic evidence directly tells us that the Macedonians were Greek. Pella Curse Tablet being the most obvious example, but there are loads more. 7) If we look at non-Greek peoples who adopted Greek culture or letters, such as the Illyrians or the Thracians, they still left traces of their own language. They had their own names. Their own gods. Even the Romans, a people thoroughly entranced by Greek culture, never presented themselves as Greek. If the Macedonians were not Greek, how come we have not found a single shred of evidence of their own unique language? Did they destroy all physical evidence of ever being non-Greek?
It is almost certain that even the name MAKEDONIA is of Greek etymology, because the Macedonians are called MAKEDNON by Herodotus, and the same word is used in Homers Odyssey to describe things that are TALL. First Herodotus: 👇🏻 ".. For in the days of king Deucalion it inhabited the land of Phthia, then the country called Histiaean, under Ossa and Olympus, *in the time of Dorus son of Hellen; driven from this Histiaean country by the Cadmeans, it settled about Pindus in the territory which it called MAKEDNON;* from there again it migrated to Dryopia, and at last came from Dryopia into the Peloponnese, *where it took the name of Dorian* .." -Herodotus [Histories 1.56.3] «.. ἐπὶ μὲν γὰρ Δευκαλίωνος βασιλέος οἴκεε γῆν τὴν Φθιῶτιν, ἐπὶ δὲ Δώρου τοῦ Ἕλληνος τὴν ὑπὸ τὴν Ὄσσαν τε καὶ τὸν Ὄλυμπον χώρην, καλεομένην δὲ Ἱστιαιῶτιν: ἐκ δὲ τῆς Ἱστιαιώτιδος ὡς ἐξανέστη ὑπὸ Καδμείων, οἴκεε ἐν Πίνδῳ *Μακεδνὸν* καλεόμενον: ἐνθεῦτεν δὲ αὖτις ἐς τὴν Δρυοπίδα μετέβη καὶ ἐκ τῆς Δρυοπίδος οὕτω ἐς Πελοπόννησον ἐλθὸν *Δωρικὸν ἐκλήθη* ..» -Ἡρόδοτος [Ἱστορίαι 1.56.3] NOTE: Notice how he talks about the migrations of these people that came to be known as the Dorians & how they first settled in a Region & called it Macedonia. DORIANS are 100% a Greek people, one of the major tribes of the Ancient Greeks. And here is Homer using the word to describe something TALL: 👇🏻 ".. and others weave webs, or, as they sit, twirl the yarn, like unto the leaves of a *TALL* poplar tree; and from the closely-woven linen the soft olive oil drips down .." -Homer [Odyssey 7.105-106] «.. αἱ δ᾽ ἱστοὺς ὑφόωσι καὶ ἠλάκατα στρωφῶσιν ἥμεναι, οἷά τε φύλλα *Μακεδνῆς* αἰγείροιο: καιρουσσέων δ᾽ ὀθονέων ἀπολείβεται ὑγρὸν ἔλαιον ..» -Όμηρος [Ὀδύσσεια 7.105-106] *ΜΑΚΕΔΝΟΝ = ΜΑΚΕΔΝΗΣ* it is formed by the same root WORD 100% it just has different declensions because one describes an object, and the other is used to describe the Name of a Region. They are documented by our Ancient sources as being referred to a few variations of this word, but for the most part the people would have come to call themselves ΜΑΚΕΔΝΟΙ [ΟΙ = plural] and ΜΑΚΕΔΝΟΣ [singular] and then through Metathesis it would eventually become ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΙΑ. It is important to NOTE that the Macedonian dialect shows DORIC Greek Dialectal forms as opposed to IONIAN ATTIC Greek. One of the primary differences between these two Greek dialects is the Shift between Α & Η (E sound). This is why the root of this word ΜΑΚΟΣ (MAKOS) was pronounced by Athenians as ΜΗΚΟΣ (MEKOS). Today, in modern Greek, the IONIAN ATTIC form survives, the precursor to Koine & the "chosen" of the Macedonians themselves! About the name & it’s meaning. According to Herodotus, the Original Macedonian Dorians first settled in the Highlands west of the Plateau & they lived next to a group of people who called themselves Orestai and their region Orestes which we know meant something like "Mountain Men", which is why most Linguists believe that MAKEDNOI, who also lived in the Mountainous Territories next to them probably called themselves "Highlanders" or People who lived UP HIGH or TALL AREAS. [They later moved down to the Plains & drove away the Pierians as Herodotus tells us]. The name could also be for their actual Physical Height as well, we are not sure, but the first theory is the most likely.
Hope this reaches Luke: In southern Italy there is a very ancient dialect of greek still spoken (Salento and Calabria), grecanico, a variant of greek descendant from the Magna Graecia and the Byzantine times. Maybe grecanico is hundreds if not thousands years old! but now is fighting to survive.
These are the tribes from Africa which settled first in Sicily, and when roman Emperor Claudius was camping in that region everything his soldiers had, they were robbed by these settlers in the area. So Claudius named them Magna Graeko, which means great thieves. This is the tribe of Dan, known as Danaians, which settled in Europe from Africa, reaching Macedonia and Sicily. In Macedonia they came in white robes and with gifts in their hands, with nice gesttures, mimicking humble and nice peoples.....the next generation claimed the land as their own. Does this sound familiar to the people in EUROPE???? Their decendants rule you and open doors to destruction of europe. That what today is happening to Europe that is swarmed by radical immigrants who will chase you away from your homes, is the karma for what you have done to Macedonia. Keep supporting the arteficial creature greece that you have created on MACEDONIAN LAND. You have done injustice to Macedonia supporting the crimes done by the greeks. They chopped heads just as todays radicals are doing it in the middle east. Even your European newspapers at those times not too long ago just one centrury appart back from today, were publishing photos of the beheaded Macedonians and their heads stuck on spikes by these bloodthirsty "founders of democracy" Karma is a bit ch.
5:42 As you say, the term “barbarian” did mean foreigner and/or non Greek-speaking, indeed. However, word meanings have all sorts of nuances. Thus, “barbarian” also came to mean uneducated, primitive, less developed in matters of language and culture compared to what was perceived as the norm. As such, it could-and indeed was-used for Greek peoples too, especially those who lived at the frontiers of the Greek world and couldn’t rival the erudition of classical Athens. Remember, the Greek world was an amalgamation of ethnic groups (Ionians, Dorians, Aeolians) with all sorts of dialects, local customs and history, geopolitical affiliations and government systems-not a nation-state. Macedonians were not unique in this regard. οἱ δὲ Θρᾷκες καὶ Ἰλλυριοὶ καὶ Ἠπειρῶται καὶ μέχρι νῦν ἐν πλευραῖς εἰσιν: ἔτι μέντοι μᾶλλον πρότερον ἢ νῦν, ὅπου γε καὶ τῆς ἐν τῷ παρόντι Ἑλλάδος ἀναντιλέκτως οὔσης τὴν πολλὴν οἱ βάρβαροι ἔχουσι, Μακεδονίαν μὲν Θρᾷκες καί τινα μέρη τῆς Θετταλίας, Ἀκαρνανίας δὲ καὶ Αἰτωλίας τὰ ἄνω Θεσπρωτοὶ καὶ Κασσωπαῖοι καὶ Ἀμφίλοχοι καὶ Μολοττοὶ καὶ Ἀθαμᾶνες, Ἠπειρωτικὰ ἔθνη. And even to the present day the Thracians, Illyrians, and Epeirotes live on the flanks of the Greeks; indeed most of the country that at the present time is indisputably Greece is held by the barbarians-Macedonia and certain parts of Thessaly by the Thracians, and the parts above Acarnania and Aetolia by the Thesproti, the Cassopaei, the Amphilochi, the Molossi, and the Athamanes-Epeirotic tribes. Strabo, Geography 7.7.1 As you can see, not only are Greek/Hellenized tribes like the Athamanians are called barbarians, probably for their obscure origin and cultural backwardness (from their part, they identified as Greeks, of course), but Macedonia is listed among the par excellence Greek territories that are partly held by the barbarians, namely Thracians.
@@Rasarel They were. The Greeks of southern Italy called the Romans barbarians. In fact, the greek king Pyrrhus after the battle of Heraclea said: "We call these guys barbarians, but this army doesn't look very barbaric to me"
@@deniszt.6302 Ok, I had in mind 100BC-100AD The Roman golden age classical period. Because in those times Romans have been studying Greek since childhood..☀️
Do you have actual proof that the word barbaric was used this way during this time or is it again just baseless interpretations because the original meaning being just non greek makes the most sense. And the added meanings of the words could have evolved much later in time which makes it impossible to prove
Are you kidding me? Yes it was. Alexander's dynasty was called Argead, which means from Argos. In fact, when Macedonians had to compete in the Olympics, they had to prove their Greekness and they did.
I' m Greek and I know my Language. Alexander's Father was named Filipos. In Greek Language filos means friend and ippos is the horse. Filipos is someone who likes horses very much. His mother's name was Olimpiada. It means the time among Olympic Games, four years. Alexander (Αλέξανδρος) is somebody who protects the people (Άλεξ = protect Αλεξίσφαιρο = bullet proof, Άνδρας = man). His Sister name was Thessaloniki. In Thessaly was a Greek Tribe that Filipos Conquered. Nike means Victory. Filipos named his daughter Thessaloniki, in memory of this victory. All these names are Greek. Alexander's horse name was Voukefalas. Vous is the Ox. Kefali is the head. Voukefalas means a very big head, like oxAll his Generals had Greek Names. Macedonians loved the same Gods and took part in Olympic Games
I could imagine that ancient Macedonian was to Greek what modern Swiss dialects are to modern German. Someone from Hamburg will not be able to understand a Swiss speaker at all, someone from Bavaria can understand something, someone from Swabia will understand a lot. Also consider that Greeks from the mainland today find it very difficult to understand Cypriots and Rhodians when they speak their local dialects. Nevertheless those dialects are part of the Greek language group.
Hamburger here can confirm that most non-linguistic north germans have a hard time understanding the swiss dialect even when "clearly" spoken. I myself have been able to understand it due to linguistics background
who are the greeks today? Greece exists for the first time in history in 1821, which is called the beginning of the war against the Ottoman invasion, from the time of Alexander the Great until 1821, we did not write anything about Helenen , not a single note, not a single thing, The Ottoman Empire did a census of the population every 5 years based on the religion and the language they spoke at home. before the Ottoman Empire, there were the Venetians who had population registrations in the areas under the rule of Venice and around it. we have the formation of the Greek State for the first time in History, we also have heroes who fought and died for Greece in 1821,and all 100 Heroes are Albanians,the Majority in Greece in the year 1830 are Albanians mean Arvanites ,in Athen the Kadaster from Athen have 8000 Houses. the most of them are living Albanian speaking population the minority are other Ethnies.Around Athens living 100 % Albanian People .
Some folks don't mince their words. Let us also remember the Tsakonians & Pontic Greeks. It is only a century since the reform of the Ottoman Empire's Anatolian territories into modern Turkey alienated the Greeks from ancestral aboriginal homelands there pre-dating Hellenic Greece. Among those were Caria of which the term Barbarian was first coined. And what of the Trojans? The Latins claimed them for ancestral family, but did they speak Aromance tongue? Was Wilusan the ancestor of Wallacian Vlach - a relative of Albanian - the ancestral tongue of Egypt's last dynasty?
@@kocoqape8061 the people living today in Greece are people descending from the populations around the whole Mediterranean and the black sea who settled there in the millennium BC and who spoke Ελληνικά. The descendants of those first settlers kept speaking Ελληνικά throughout the last 3000 years and still speak Ελληνικά. In fact the Greek communities in Egypt, Ukraine , Romania and Italy up to today speak Ελληνικά and identify as Έλληνες (Hellenes). Due to the various Balkan wars and especially due to the treaty of Lausanne many Greeks living today in Greece have ancestors from areas outside the borders of the country, because the Greek speaking minorities were expelled (many also were killed, but that's another story). So in fact most Greeks living today descend partly from the Greek populations that used to live in today Turkiye, Bulgaria, Ukraine, Romania, Albania and Egypt. Keep in mind all conquerors of the Greeks were in numbers a minority on the Greek territories. The Romans, the Venetians, the Knights, the Turks and the Italians never outnumbered the local population and due to religious issues they also rarely mixed. On the other hand modern Turks due to the deshvirne system and the habit of wealthy Turks to have Christian female slaves for sex and procreation, have in large proportion ancestors from the local Christian populations they conquered, especially Greek and Armenian. So if you think modern Greeks do not descend from ancient Greeks, you're misinformed. It's just that they moved around a lot in the last 3000 years.
@@helgaioannidis9365 His comment wasn't really worth answering. He is obviously delusional. He will soon argue there are no Kurds - because there exist no Kurdish state.
*The Macedonians were Greeks* 👇🏻 The Macedonians were Greek from the very beginning. Even the earliest findings in Macedonia from the 7th Century BC found in Aiani & other parts of Upper Macedon (The Proto Homeland) with names like Themida, Pleoni, & Machatas, are ALL GREEK. Unlike the Illyrians & Thracians who's names had 10% Greek influence (Maximum, due to prestige) the Macedonians were overwhelmingly Greek, their entire culture attests to it! And not just Universal Greek names, many of the Macedonian Names were Epichorial, meaning that they were UNIQUE GREEK NAMES TO MACEDONIA & the MACEDONIANS !!!! There are many surviving Macedonian words & rules for words that we have. We know the Macedonians used Berenike instead of Ferenike like in Athens for example, or Danos instead of Thanos, Magaira instead of Machaira, Kebali instead of Kefali. We also have, as mentioned in the video, the PELLA CURSE TABLET, most Linguists believe that this is the longest single item that has the Macedonian Dialect on it, and it is undoubtedly Greek. 👇🏻 1. [ΘΕΤΙ]ΜΑΣ ΚΑΙ ΔΙΟΝΥΣΟΦΩΝΤΟΣ ΤΟ ΤΕΛΟΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΟΝ ΓΑΜΟΝ ΚΑΤΑΓΡΑΦΩ ΚΑΙ ΤΑΝ ΑΛΛΑΝ ΠΑΣΑΝ ΓΥ 2. [ΝΑΙΚ]ΩΝ ΚΑΙ ΧΗΡΑΝ ΚΑΙ ΠΑΡΘΕΝΩΝ ΜΑΛΙΣΤΑ ΔΕ ΘΕΤΙΜΑΣ ΚΑΙ ΠΑΡΚΑΤΤΙΘΕΜΑΙ ΜΑΚΡΩΝΙ ΚΑΙ 3. [ΤΟΙΣ] ΔΑΙΜΟΣΙ ΚΑΙ ΟΠΟΚΑ ΕΓΟ ΤΑΥΤΑ ΔΙΕΛΕΞΑΙΜΙ ΚΑΙ ΑΝΑΓΝΟΙΗΝ ΠΑΛLΙΝ ΑΝΟΡΟΞΑΣΑ 4. [ΤΟΚΑ] ΓΑΜΑΙ ΔΙΟΝΥΣΟΦΩΝΤΑ ΠΡΟΤΕΡΟΝ ΔΕ ΜΗ ΜΗ ΓΑΡ ΛΑΒΟΙ ΑΛΛΑΝ ΓΥΝΑΙΚΑ ΑΛΛ Η ΕΜΕ 5. [ΕΜΕ Δ]Ε ΣΥΝΚΑΤΑΓΗΡΑΣΑΙ ΔΙΟΝΥΣΟΦΩΝΤΙ ΚΑΙ ΜΗΔΕΜΙΑΝ ΑΛΛΑΝ ΙΚΕΤΙΣ ΥΜΩΝ ΓΙΝΟ 6. [ΜΑΙ ΦΙΛ]ΑΝ ΟΙΚΤΙΡΕΤΕ ΔΑΙΜΟΝΕΣ ΦΙΛ[Ο]Ι ΔΑΓΙΝΑΓΑΡΙΜΕ ΦΙΛΩΝ ΠΑΝΤΩΝ ΚΑΙ ΕΡΗΜΑ ΑΛΛΑ 7. [....]Α ΦΥΛΑΣΣΕΤΕ ΕΜΙΝ Ο[Π]ΩΣ ΜΗ ΓΙΝΕΤΑΙ ΤΑ[Υ]ΤΑ ΚΑΙ ΚΑΚΑ ΚΑΚΩΣ ΘΕΤΙΜΑ ΑΠΟΛΗΤΑΙ 8. [....]ΑΛ[-].ΥΝΜ .. ΕΣΠΛΗΝ ΕΜΟΣ ΕΜΕ ΔΕ [Ε]Υ[Δ]ΑΙΜΟΝΑ ΚΑΙ ΜΑΚΑΡΙΑΝ ΓΕΝΕΣΤΑΙ 9. [-]ΤΟ[.].[-].[..]..Ε.Ε.Ω[?]Α.[.]Ε..ΜΕΓΕ [-] ^^^Any Greek child that has completed Elementary school can understand this even today! The Macedonians are THE BIGGEST reason that the Greeks speak the Greek Language the way they do today since they standardized KOINE, which has changed very little as far as wording & structuring of sentences as well as vocabulary. Here are a FEW examples of Macedonian Names & Words found in Manuscripts & on Inscriptions they left behind. Almost ALL Ancient Macedonians (99%) had Greek names...all these names & words are Greek, with many being Uniquely "Macedonian Greek". All their Calendar Months, their Troop Formations, their Oronyms, their Hydronyms, their City Names, their Epithets, their Nicknames, & even their Ethnonym..etc: 👇🏻 Makedonia, Pella, Aegae, Aiani, Amfipolis, Herakleia Lynkestis, Dion, Astraion, Europos, Filippoupoli, Filippoi, Alexandroupoli, Thessaloniki, Alexandreia, Boukefaleia, Eschate, Profthasia, Petra, Xylopolis Archelaos, Karanos, Pausanias, Alexandros, Filippos, Ptolemaios, Seleukos, Antigonos, Antiochos, Demetrios, Kassandros, Lysimachos, Parmenion, Filotas, Krateros, Koinos, Alketas, Argaios, Orestes, Neoptolemos, Arridaios, Archon, Hegelochos, Filoxenos, Menandros, Apollodotos, Leonnatos, Leonidas, Attalos, Amyntas, Hefaistion, Nearchos, Kleitos O Melas, Kleitos O Leukos, Peukestas, Perdikkas, Meleagros, Polyperchonis, Dionysios, Olympias, Bereniki, Laodiki, Eurydiki, Laniki, Hellas, Theoxena, Fila, Stratoniki, Arsinoe, Kleopatra, Andromache, Boukefalos, Perittas, Poliorketes, Keravnos, Soter, Nikator, Theos, Anikitos, Euergetes, Auletes, Barypous, Eupator, Nikiforou, Kallinikos, Epifanes, Filopator, Filometor, Dikaiou, Gonatas, Doson, Fyskon, Tryfon, Helios, Selene, Basileus, Strategoi, Hegemones, Tetrarchos, Speirarchos, Cheiristes, Grammateis, Archyperetai, Asthetairoi, Hetairoi, Pezhetairoi, Hypaspistes, Argyrasipides, Fylax, Somatofylax, Filoi, Syntrofos, Efodos, Ekkoition, Stegnopoiia, Skenopoiia, Fragmos, Diastasis, Parembole, Stratopedon, Falanx, Magaira, Konos, Knemides, Aspis, Thorax, Hemithorakion, Obola, Drachma, It is almost certain that even the name MAKEDONIA is of Greek etymology, because the Macedonians are called MAKEDNON by Herodotus, and the same word is used in Homers Odyssey to describe things that are TALL. First Herodotus: 👇🏻 ".. For in the days of king Deucalion it inhabited the land of Phthia, then the country called Histiaean, under Ossa and Olympus, *in the time of Dorus son of Hellen; driven from this Histiaean country by the Cadmeans, it settled about Pindus in the territory which it called MAKEDNON;* from there again it migrated to Dryopia, and at last came from Dryopia into the Peloponnese, *where it took the name of Dorian* .." -Herodotus [Histories 1.56.3] «.. ἐπὶ μὲν γὰρ Δευκαλίωνος βασιλέος οἴκεε γῆν τὴν Φθιῶτιν, ἐπὶ δὲ Δώρου τοῦ Ἕλληνος τὴν ὑπὸ τὴν Ὄσσαν τε καὶ τὸν Ὄλυμπον χώρην, καλεομένην δὲ Ἱστιαιῶτιν: ἐκ δὲ τῆς Ἱστιαιώτιδος ὡς ἐξανέστη ὑπὸ Καδμείων, οἴκεε ἐν Πίνδῳ *Μακεδνὸν* καλεόμενον: ἐνθεῦτεν δὲ αὖτις ἐς τὴν Δρυοπίδα μετέβη καὶ ἐκ τῆς Δρυοπίδος οὕτω ἐς Πελοπόννησον ἐλθὸν *Δωρικὸν ἐκλήθη* ..» -Ἡρόδοτος [Ἱστορίαι 1.56.3] NOTE: Notice how he talks about the migrations of these people that came to be known as the Dorians & how they first settled in a Region & called it Macedonia. DORIANS are 100% a Greek people, one of the major tribes of the Ancient Greeks. And here is Homer using the word to describe something TALL: 👇🏻 ".. and others weave webs, or, as they sit, twirl the yarn, like unto the leaves of a *TALL* poplar tree; and from the closely-woven linen the soft olive oil drips down .." -Homer [Odyssey 7.105-106] «.. αἱ δ᾽ ἱστοὺς ὑφόωσι καὶ ἠλάκατα στρωφῶσιν ἥμεναι, οἷά τε φύλλα *Μακεδνῆς* αἰγείροιο: καιρουσσέων δ᾽ ὀθονέων ἀπολείβεται ὑγρὸν ἔλαιον ..» -Όμηρος [Ὀδύσσεια 7.105-106] *ΜΑΚΕΔΝΟΝ = ΜΑΚΕΔΝΗΣ* it is formed by the same root WORD 100% it just has different declensions because one describes an object, and the other is used to describe the Name of a Region. They are documented by our Ancient sources as being referred to a few variations of this word, but for the most part the people would have come to call themselves ΜΑΚΕΔΝΟΙ [ΟΙ = plural] and ΜΑΚΕΔΝΟΣ [singular] and then through Metathesis it would eventually become ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΙΑ. It is important to NOTE that the Macedonian dialect shows DORIC Greek Dialectal forms as opposed to IONIAN ATTIC Greek. One of the primary differences between these two Greek dialects is the Shift between Α & Η (E sound). This is why the root of this word ΜΑΚΟΣ (MAKOS) was pronounced by Athenians as ΜΗΚΟΣ (MEKOS). Today, in modern Greek, the IONIAN ATTIC form survives, the precursor to Koine & the "chosen" of the Macedonians themselves! About the name & it’s meaning. According to Herodotus, the Original Macedonian Dorians first settled in the Highlands west of the Plateau & they lived next to a group of people who called themselves Orestai and their region Orestes which we know meant something like "Mountain Men", which is why most Linguists believe that MAKEDNOI, who also lived in the Mountainous Territories next to them probably called themselves "Highlanders" or People who lived UP HIGH or TALL AREAS. [They later moved down to the Plains & drove away the Pierians as Herodotus tells us]. The name could also be for their actual Physical Height as well, we are not sure, but the first theory is the most likely. The etymologies of Filippos & Alexandros are all 100% Greek. 👇🏻 There are HUNDREDS of names (And words) found all over the ancient Greek world that START or end with the Greek Roots: FILO or HIPPOS as well as ALEX & ANDROS. Here are a few words that you can recognize that are also used in English which are all of GREEK ULTIMATE ETYMOLOGY 👇🏻 FILOsofia-------Philosophy IPPOdromo -----Hippodrome Androkratia-----Androcracy FytoALEXine-----Phytoalexin And here are a just a FEW EXAMPLES of similar names in Ancient Greece & which also exist in Modern Greece: 👇🏻 Filippos- Friend of Horses Lysippos- Unleasher of Horses Anaxippos- Ruler of Horses Archippos- Lord of Horses Menippos- Vigor of Horses Alexippos- Protector of Horses Aristippos- Best of Horses Igisippos- Leader of Horses And also: 👇🏻 Alexandros-Protector of Man Lysandros-Unleasher of Man Menandros-The Vigor of Man Kassandros-The Shining Man Euandros-The Good Man Leandros-The Lion-like Man Nikandros-The Victory of Man Filandros-The Friend of Man Kleandros-The Glory of Man Amynandros-The Defender of Man Anaxandros-The Ruler of Man Archandros-The Lord of Man Alkandros-The Strength (Prowess) of Man Aristandros-The Best (Excellence) of Man Igisandros-The Leader of Man Timandros-The Honorable Man Thersandros-The Bold Man Kratandros-The Strong Man ^^^^There are maybe THOUSANDS of names in Ancient Greece that use these Greek roots. It is TOO MANY to list !!! ✅ The Macedonians were Greek by every Metric! Most importantly, they stated that they were Greeks themselves! 🇬🇷
Great work! What further augments the "Greekness" of Macedon is the Greekness of the name itself. And although this has repeatedly been stressed, it should be further noted that the particle Μακ-, which also appears as μηκ- in other Greek dialects and which refers to length of height/stature, is used to this day throughout Greek, as in μακρύς δρόμος = long road, μήκος = length, μακρόκοσμος=macrocosm, etc.
@@ermirdestaniABSOLUTELY NOT! The word GRAIKOI is of GREEK ULTIMATE ORIGIN….NOT LATIN 😃 My suggestion: Read more Books 📚 from PHD Historians & Linguists & skip the "cheap-thrill" google search Propaganda! 👍🏻
@@SpartanLeonidas1821 No it is not. Just make a research in diferent sites and you will see. Here is what i found "From Latin Graeci, the name given by the Romans to the people who called themselves the Hellenes, from Greek Graiko.", there is nothing wrong here.
@konstantintrehagyrevopoulo972 can you proove that "AL@ANIANS came to the region from Al@ania-kaukasus 1200 A.D"??? The word Albania is a Latin name and there are many such. Maybe the Albanians came from Scotland because Scotland it is also called Alba by the locals.
@@baits9301 You want me to show you where on the (ancient - 4th BCE) Pella Curse Tablet writes "Made in Greece"? Ha, ha, haaa!! All Greeks, thus the Macedons as well, could always read it; it is written in Doric Greek, you know, a dialcet of the Greek language, the language of the Greeks to this very day. Modern Slavomacedonians, well, they are Slavic speaking Slavs with no relation to the ancient Macedonians who were Greeks.
@@papertoyss You speak English , but your not an Engish man , try tell an Irishman his English . Macedonian will decide who they are . Not call Macedonians for nothing . You should getb your own name first . You are a creation of king otto .
@@baits9301 Professor Toni Deskoski, Skopje, Slavomacedonia, On Camera, *February 2018,* _"We tried to replace our identity, to inject ancient Greek "DNA", culture and history, in our society, in order to change our collective memory, the memory of a _*_Slavic nation._*_ We tried to present and to _*_promote ourselves_*_ as an ancient Macedonian nation. _*_The ancient Macedonians were actually Greeks._*_ It was a very crazy attempt to present a Slavic nation as Greek nation and that caused a great confusion within our State."_
I have always just known it as a fact that Macedonian Greek was a Doric dialect, I don't really understand what the debate is about 😅 Thanks for a really interesting video Luke 👏😎
@polyMATHY_Luke It was sometime ago...I couldn't understand some of the words but it was clearly something similar to Koini Elliniki which made me wonder whether Alexander coined a new language or just simply adapted Attic Greek to his own dialect ...I'm not familiar with linguistics, when was the tablet written and when was koini invented??
@@Καντηλαναυτης perhaps the same way a modern greek will not understand 80% of Cypriots speaking while he will undestand 90% of it if he read the same in text.
@@baits9301 Graekos is a mythical person and the name existed. We names ourselves ellines. If you cannot accept it, it's your problem. Millions of tourists have watched our macedonian heritage all over Macedonia. Not in Vardarska
You people thnk every thing in this world is greek . Ancient Macedonian . we now have out own names , as to be different to yours SKI . A bit like your Anatolian christian turks with Turkish name change . That now call themselves greek . Why so many names . Just stick to one . Lucky king otto gave you a name . Or you still wouldn't have kown your name .
@@baits9301 That's irrelevant because the Greeks never called themselves "Greek" to begin with. That said, the word "Greek" existed well before 1821 and comes from the ancient "Graikos". So you are double wrong.
It’s pretty relatable in a way that Attic Greeks would talk about the Macedonians and the way they speak in that way! Even nowadays Greeks of different regions do the same thing (in a more friendly manner). My mother is Peloponnesian and her best friend is Cypriot and they always rib each other about the ‘weird’ Greek the other speaks. Να ‘σαι καλά, Λουκάς!
True. I live in Rhodes and my father learned to speak Greek here. He later moved back to Germany and took Greek lessons there. His teacher wad from Athens and would constantly tease my father about his pronunciation and vocabulary not being Greek, but "Anatolian". But of course people on Rhodes speak Greek, it just is a dialect similar to Cypriot.
Pontic Greek is also very difficult to be understood by Grecians! Cyprus has also many dialects and very heavy accents that many Cypriots cannot understand each other!
Tis very true, Cypriot Greek is unintelligible to standard modern Greek if the Cypriot speaker chooses to use all the most divergent words and phrases. I knew Luke would have a nuanced interpretation.
@@helgaioannidis9365 God how I hate those teachers that want to kill all the dialects, and languages and impose in bloody french revolutin manner the standard, a.k.a the politics chosen one.
Ancient Macedonians were speaking an archaic form of western Greek / Doric language, that was part of the wider Greek language tree (Thessalian influence was also a fact as you mentioned, due to proximity), that lasted about until c. 350 BC, when the ascend of Philip II and Alexander afterwards. In the years that follow, the incorporation of new tribes, kingdoms and ethne inside the greater Macedonian kingdom / empire, made Hellenistic koine the main language, with many similarities from Attic / Ionic dialect. In addition, before the establishment of the Hellenistic koine and the expansion of the kingdom, the change from a more archaic form of Greek, to the Attic dialect was taking place. That was accomplished by bringing scholars from Athens to teach and enlighten the Royal Pages and other prominent Macedonian members of aristocratic families, at the era of Philip II. - Grigorios Charalampidis, PhD candidate of Ancient History, D.U.Th., Greece.
Very informative video on the ancient Macedonian dialect. Regarding the "barbarian" term here's how ancient Greeks used it, or rather some ancient Athenian politicians. The ancient Greeks - particularly the Athenians, like Demosthenes - often used the word “barbarian” to insult and/or mock other Greeks. In other words, “barbarian” also meant “uncivilised”. Aeschines called Demosthenes a “barbarian”, Demosthenes called Philip, a Macedonian, and Meidias, an Athenian, “barbarians”, etc. Here are a few examples of Greeks insulting other Greeks by calling them “barbarians”: Aeschines: “But to be free from accusation, that was a thing which depended upon fortune, and fortune cast my lot with [i.e: referring to Demosthenes, who was an Athenian] a slanderer, a barbarian, who cared not for sacrifices nor libations nor the breaking of bread together.” (Aeschines, “On the Embassy”, 2.183) Demosthenes: “And yet, though he has thus become the possessor of privileges to which he has no claim, and has found a fatherland which is reputed to be of all states the most firmly based upon its laws, he seems utterly unable to submit to those laws or abide by them. His [i.e: Meidias, an Athenian] true, native barbarism and hatred of religion drive him on by force and betray the fact that he treats his present rights as if they were not his own-as indeed they are not. ” (Demosthenes, “Against Meidias”, 21.150) “Is he [i.e: Philip II, a Macedonian] not our enemy? Are not our possessions in his hands? Is he not a barbarian?” (Demosthenes, “Third Olynthiac”, 16) Atheneaus: “And when he was asked again, according to the account given by Hegesander, which were the greatest barbarians, the Boeotians [i.e: Greeks] or the Thessalians [Greeks], he said: 'The Eleans' [Greeks].” (Athenaeus, “The Deipnosophists”, 8.42) Plato: “Was he not reproaching Pittacus for not knowing how to distinguish words correctly, Lesbian as he was, and nurtured in a barbaric tongue?” [i.e: referring to the Aeolic dialect, one of the major Greek dialects] (Plato, “Protagoras”, 341c) Aristophanes: [i.e: Strepsiades, an Athenian], “a man ignorant and barbarian.” (Aristophanes, “Clouds”, 491) As for Demosthenes, “The speeches of Demosthenes, that deal with Philip as the enemy, should not be interpreted as an indication of the barbarian origins of Macedonians, but as an expression of conflict between two different political systems: the democratic system of the city-state (e.g.Athens) versus the monarchy (Kingdom of Macedonia).” (Nicholas Hammond, British historian and expert on Macedonia, in an interview with the magazine “Macedonian Echo” in February 1993) "Ancient allegations that the Macedonians were non-Greek all had their origin in Athens at the time of the struggle with Philip II. Then as now, political struggle created the prejudice. The orator Aeschines once even found it necessary, in order to counteract the prejudice vigorously fomented by his opponents, to defend Philip on this issue and describe him at a meeting of the Athenian Popular Assembly as being 'entirely Greek'. Demosthenes' allegations were lent an appearance of credibility by the fact, apparent to every observer, that the lifestyle of the Macedonians, being determined by specific geographical and historical conditions, was different from that of a Greek city-state. This alien way of life was, however, common to western Greeks of Epirus, Akarnania and Aitolia, as well as to the Macedonians, and their fundamental Greek nationality was never doubted. Only as a consequence of the political disagreement with Macedonia was the issue raised at all." (Malcolm Errington, “A History of Macedonia", University of California Press, 1993, p.4) “Macedonian kings were proud of their Greek blood, and it was only jaundiced opponents like Demosthenes the Athenian who ventured to call them 'barbarians.'” (A. R. Burn, "Alexander the Great and the Hellenistic Empire", 1962, Macmillan, p.4) “By Demosthenes the interval was spent rallying Greek opinion against 'The barbarian', as he unjustly and inaccurately called the Macedonian [Philip]". (“The Oxford Illustrated History of Greece and the Hellenistic World", p. 148) Note also, that other Athenians, such as Aeschines and Isocrates, proclaimed the Greekness of the Macedonians. As for the Macedonians, we know they were Greeks. They spoke Greek, shared the same religion, cults and customs with the rest of the Greeks, the took part in the Pan-Hellenic sanctuaries and participated in the Olympics where only freeborn Greeks could participate, and, moreover, they identified themselves as Greeks: “Now that these descendants of Perdiccas [i.e: the Macedonians] are Greeks, as they themselves say, I myself chance to know and will prove it in the later part of my history.” (Herodotus, “Histories”, 5.22)
I knew that Athenian arrogant Demosthenis called macedonian Philip as barbarian Now I'm happy that i learnt, Aeschines called Demosthenis as barbarian 😎 Cool
The introduction to Ancient Greek dialects and this video both give me the faint hope that with each video, I’ll have a slightly less confusing understanding of the chaotic maze that Ancient Greek dialects are haha. Thanks for covering the subject. Kind of off topic, but I really liked Oliver Stone’s approach to the accents in the Alexander film: the “Greek Greeks” all had RP British accents, whilst Macedonians had Irish, Welsh and Scottish ones. It cleverly explains to the audience the cultural and dialectal dynamic between the “Greek Greeks” and the Macedonians, by using the Scots/Irish/Welsh vs English relationship as an analogy. It’s also an exceedingly clever usage of “show don’t tell: the script doesn’t need dialogue where we’re told which characters are Macedonian or not, the audience will know based on the accent. (Actually the main reason was that Colin Farrell apparently had a hard time acting without his accent, but Stone still devised a cool creative trick around that). Alot of people give Farrel a hard time for his Irish Alexander, but miss the overall clever usage of accents in the film.
I wouldn't say this distinction in dialects between the ''Greek Greeks'' and Macedonians to differantiate them was a good approach. Besides, the Thessalians with their original Aeolian accents were infamous for being the hardest to understand for the rest of the Greek tribes. (The Thessalian Cavalry comprised a big part of Alexander the Great's army)
@@greektraditionalmusicchann5644 Yeah but you gotta look at it in the context of a film. Stone wasn't doing a documentary, he was tackling a dramatic story, and in the context of the screenplay he wrote, the cultural tension between the Macedonians and the southern Greeks is what happens in the story. The Thessalians don't play any part in the screenplay so giving them an accent or not is entirely irrelevant.
@@faryafaraji You are right. It is after all a Hollywood movie. All I'm saying is that Greek tribes like the Thessalians and Epirotes would have been as weird to the people we today consider ''Greek Greeks'' (mainly the south Dorians, the Ionians and their colonies) as the Macedonians.
Yes, I think you hit the nail on the head with your explanation. IIRC, Demosthones was not shy of calling anyone a barbarian he didn't like and even called another orator a barbarian (forgot his name). They probably brought Great Attic with them, because it was already well-developed for imperial use and recognized over a wide area. Granted, I don't know; we don't have the texts.
If we take the example of the romance languages, it is pretty obvious that there is continuum from the south of Spain to the North of France, even though in this case, the intermediary step, the Occitan language is no longer as widely spoken as it used to be. The same for Italian and French. I was very surprised to hear people in Milan say "cinq" instead of "cinque" to say five, even though they pronounce it as the word "sink" in English. Travelling was complicated, and the original Latin that split into different dialects eventually became quite difficult to understand when put at different places in this continuum. So it could make sense that the Macedonians spoke some variety of Greek that had become pretty difficult to understand, especially at a time when literacy was quite low. Furthermore, the Macedonians were in contact with other languages that might have influenced their own language. There is quite a literature about the influence of the Thracians on the Greek religion for instance. There are some _idiots_ who say that Québécois is not French, for some weird reasons. I met someone from Toronto who spent many hours explaining to me that protecting French in Québec was ridiculous because it was not proper French. I even met French people saying the same kind of non sense. So no I'm not surprise that Greek authors would distance themselves from such a dangerous neighbor with this kind of rhetoric. It took me less that a week to be fully acquainted with Québécois.
Ironically, said idiot actually gave an even better argument for protecting the language. I mean if it is not French and as such a language unique to Canada, that means that if it dies in Canada it would be extinct, at least now it has France, neighbours and colonies to fall back on. I am not a native French speaker but it also took me a week or at most two to get used to it, and after a month I completely took over the accent (which took me a year to lose once I was in Belgium again)
@@hetwitblad6544 If your mother tongue is Flemish then it is an even better example than French, since there are so many different dialects, throughout Belgium and the Nederland, which are united by a common written language. When I was studying linguistics in Montréal, there was a professor from Belgium who explained to us how the written form of Dutch was organized. We are very far from the centralized way standard French is imposed on all French speaking countries. It took me more than 10 years to get rid of my last québécismes... I stayed six years in Montréal... Ceci explique surement cela...
@@lesfreresdelaquote1176 Yes, I wonder if my origins in a highly dialectically diverse region (which on top of that, has been incredibly well documented), has something to do with my interest in linguistic variety and obscure languages and dialects.
Another excellent and informative video Luke, well done! I am Greek from Macedonia region and every time I hear the question whether "Alexander the Great (and ancient Macedonia in general) was Greek or Macedonian?" it reminds me of the question "Is Earth rounded or flat?"!!! I don't need to mention the etymological meaning of names, the participation in Olympic games, the fact that Olympus mountain (the worship mountain of ancient Greek world) is located in Macedonia region, Aristotle's birthplace, the texts etc etc., just a simple visit to Vergina, Pella and Aegae tombs where you can read the texts on the tombs and the symbols you get a clear answer....
Absolutely! I suppose my question in this video is more about the spoken language of the Macedonians and how it fits into the Classical Greek dialects. We don’t have very much evidence to go on, but the Pella tablet is enough to convince me it’s West Greek.
@@polyMATHY_Luke well, certainly there were different dialects from region to region but the root was the same...some Doric Greek dialect which I am not expert to distinguish. The point is that it's a question of dialect difference and not language or ethnic background. You know very well that in Italy even nowadays there are hundreds of different dialects but the Italian language is the root.
I like the french analogy, also because, like the greeks called the macedoniams, us italians call the french barbarians, hell I still refer to it as gallia transalpina
There was no such thing as "Macedonian dialect". Macedonians were speaking the Greek language like all other Greeks. The only dialects existed in Greek language were Doric, Aeolic and Ionian or Attic dialect.
@@yazdani3289 My fyrBulgarian 🇲🇰 ears are burnt and our slavobulgarian 🇲🇰 tongue says solun. But Alexander's sister was Thessalonike 🇬🇷 not solun Why Turkobulgarians 🇲🇰 call her solun?
As a Philadelphian originally from right in between Vergina and Pella near the foothills of Vermion where Aristotle had his school for Alexander and his friends, this one hit close to home in more ways than one. One minor thing I may have mentioned was that the origin story of the Macedonian kingdom has its roots in the Argead empire from Argos in the Peloponnese.
great analogy between french and spanish. It is becoming clear nowadays that Illyrian was also a Hellenic dialect similiar to doric just like french and italian.
Thats a good video but I am a bit disappointed that you haven't mention the Macedonian glosses given by Hesychius of Aleksandria, which are crucial for the case. Left alone the toponymy and eponymy (also it is crucial to mention that the cradle of Macedon was montaneous Pieria, all the other lands like Imathia, Bottaia etc were conquered and colonized by original Macedonians but still remained with different non-Macedonian indigenous populations like Thracian or even some remnants of Phrygians in Edessa... Similarly, so called upper Macedonia (Orestis etc) also shouldnt be taken into consideration, since it was originally an Epirote region belonging to the koine of Molossians!). The glosses of Hesychius of Aleksandria became controversial because of regular occurence of δ instead of θ, γ nstead of χ and β instead of φ - (αιθηρ - αδη, θανων - δανων, κεφαλη - κεβλη, φρυες - αβρουτες) which seemed to make Macedonian much more closer to Phrygian rather than Greek. But this controversy seemed to be possibly solved by Hatzopoulos, supported for example by Mendez Dosuna, who concluded after a meticulous research of regional Greek epigraphies that similar voicing was occuring also with usual, non-aspirated consonants (for example Αρτεμις Διγαια instead of - Αρτεμις Δικαια in one of the inscriptions) and found even a lot of peculiar spelling mistakes with that kind of voicing (for example υβό instead of υπό). It would suggest therefore that in Macedonian the PIE aspirated voiced stops didnt follow the same fate as in Phrygian but rather this anomaly was caused by regional voicing or even early spirantization. The same kind of voicing occured also in Thessalian Perraiotia. They are also some other features which may link Macedonian dialect to Aeolic group I dont know what to think about that and so I would like you to refer to it..
U are absolutely right about Demosthenes, like he was trying in every possible way to persuade his compatriots to not join forces with Macedon...So what he did was actually a form of propaganda..But it is wrong imo to take into account only his or his supporters opinions...There were also those who wanted Philip to lead the Panhellenic war against the Persians like Isocrates, so we need these opinions to be mentioned as well...Very good video, Macedonians were indeed speaking a form of Doric Greek, combined with elements from Illyrians and Thracians too, so probably that played an important role as well to why their language was unintelligible to Southern Greeks...
Everyone must KNOW THIS! I am very sorry for our propaganda. Here in North Macedonia people are crazy. Literally! Because of the politicians we were lied to for 80 years, this is insane.
its said that the Makedonian rulers were ancestors of Heracles, much like in Lakonia (region of Sparta), and probably Makedonians had Doric dialect (spartan)
The Argead dynasty (Greek: Ἀργεάδαι, romanized: Argeádai), also known as the Temenid dynasty, was an ancient Macedonian royal house of Dorian Greek provenance. They were the founders and the ruling dynasty of the kingdom of Macedon from about 700 to 310 BC. Their tradition, as described in ancient Greek historiography, traced their origins to Argos, of Peloponnese in Southern Greece, hence the name Argeads or Argives. This is a wikipedia copy-paste. And its true. If macedons come from the Peloponese its not possible they spoke a language other than greek.
Spoke ancient Macedonnian , the word greek or greece never existed at the time , the romans decided to give you that name , and Macedonia wasn't part of any other Country .
10:20 Much like the one-way lack of understanding standard-American English speakers experience with, for example, a heavy Scottish Glaswegian accent. When I visited Glasgow, all tired and jet-lagged, I asked people to slowly repeat sentences an embarrassing number of times. Perhaps, it was a matter of a lack of exposure.
The title is completely misleading. Of course they were Greeks that doesn't has to confused to different greek dialects or traditions. Each place or city-states have their own so as nowadays
What people usually don't comprehend is that Ancient Greece was a diverse region with various ethnic and cultural groups. It is important to note that the concept of race as understood today, based on biological characteristics, did not exist in ancient Greece. However, the ancient Greeks did have a sense of ethnic and cultural distinctions among different groups. Here are some of the prominent groups that existed in ancient Greece: - Aegean: The Aegean people were considered the indigenous inhabitants of the region. They were likely a mix of various prehistoric groups, including the Minoans and Mycenaeans. - Ionians: The Ionians were one of the major groups of ancient Greeks. They inhabited the coastal regions of Asia Minor (modern-day Turkey) and some of the Aegean islands. - Dorians: The Dorians were another significant Greek group. They were believed to have migrated from the north and settled in the Peloponnese and other parts of southern Greece. - Aeolians: The Aeolians were primarily located in the region of Thessaly and the island of Lesbos. They were considered one of the early Greek tribes. - Macedonians: The Macedonians, led by Philip II and his son Alexander the Great, originated from the region of Macedonia in northern Greece. They eventually conquered much of the known world and spread Greek culture and influence. - Thracians: The Thracians were an ancient people who inhabited the region of Thrace, which encompassed parts of modern-day Bulgaria, Greece, and Turkey. - Epirotes: The Epirotes lived in the region of Epirus, located in the northwestern part of modern-day Greece and southern Albania. It is important to recognize that ancient Greece was a complex and dynamic society, and there was significant interaction, migration, and cultural exchange among these various groups. The concept of Greek identity was more closely tied to shared cultural and linguistic traits rather than biological characteristics or race. Ancient Greece was a cultural meeting point where, over the centuries, all the races that participated in it established and acquired a national consciousness, what we know today as Greek national consciousness or Hellenism. Of course Slavs and Albanians didn't exist at that time.
"Both Herodotus and Thucydides describe the Macedonians as foreigners, a distinct people living outside of the frontiers of the Greek city-states" - Eugene Borza, In the Shadow of Olympus p. 96.
"Now that these descendants of Perdiccas are Greeks, as they themselves say, I myself chance to know and will prove it in the later part of my history. Furthermore, the Hellenodicae1 who manage the contest at Olympia determined that it is so, [2] for when Alexander chose to contend and entered the lists for that purpose, the Greeks who were to run against him wanted to bar him from the race, saying that the contest should be for Greeks and not for foreigners. Alexander, however, proving himself to be an Argive, was judged to be a Greek. He accordingly competed in the furlong race and tied step for first place. This, then, is approximately what happened." Hdt. 5.22
If Alexander wasn't Greek why did he and his country have a Greek name? I can easily translate both using my ancient Greek. It's like saying George Washington was native American, because he was living in America.
The word "barbaros" has a second meaning. It defines also the behaviour of somebody. I think it isnt necessary to explain, why the ancient Atheneans said about Spoartans, they behave barbaric. So, its very understandable why they, sameway called the "tall guys" (makednoi) from the north, barbarians. Because they werent that delicate and educated as the southern greeks..
Fantastic video as always, Luke! Can you do a video on Greece and Rome's enigmatic neighbours, the Illyrians, and the connection between their supposed language and Messapic and Albanian? The pre-Slavic Paleo-Balkan world north of Greece is a beautiful linguistic mystery to delve into.
@@Nom_AnorVSJediWell the technically yes but still needs more research but for now research has been positive its proven that Albanian lived Always in The balkans from 700Bc until today but not exactly who Illyrian or Thracian.
@@Nom_AnorVSJedi Most probably, because it would make perfect sense if they are. But we don't have definite proof yet. We don't even know for sure who the ancient Illyrians were, how much they were spread, if they were one people, if they all spoke one language, similar languages, or even different languages. They are a mystery, a fascinating one we all want to solve.
@@Nom_AnorVSJedi No, there is ZERO Academic Consensus on that!!!! Zero Proof Linking them together. The Proto-Albanians may have lived closer to the Romanians, and further South have adopted a Handful of Greek Doric Words. They came South West MUCH LATER. Epirus was the cradle of the Hellenic Languages major Formation. 👍🏻
@@Notme17111the Albanians, as all historical sources attest already from 300 BC, have their origin from the Caucasus and were mounted troops of the Persians. They were almost always slaves of some empire. They did not have writing and used either Persian or Greek. They have nothing to do with the Illyrians, because the Illyrians are a kindred race of the Greeks and descend from Cadmus and the harmony that they, along with their line, originate from Thebes.
They spoke ancient Macedonian . Why because the word Greek or Greece never existed at the time . Your king otto taught you modern greek and gave you your name . Or who knows what you would have been calling yourselves , yunan , Hellas , Romans as you did in the middle ages . The Romans decided to call you Graecia . Seems you didn't know who you were .
@@baits9301 Ancient Macedonians spoke Doric/Dorian. There were several dialects, Aeolic, Doric, Ionic. All dialects were replaced by the Koine dialect during Hellenistic period. And the Romans named this language Greek. You should study some history and linguistics in order to refer your opinion about Greek language, which is one of the oldest written languages that still exist today. A modern Greek can read and understand everything that is engraved on the stones of the ancient Greek sited, in Greece, Turkey, Egypt, Persia and South Italy. My friend remember, "Half knowledge is worse than ignorance.”
@@baits9301 If you speak a Slavic language similar to Bulgarian, then you are certainly not Greek. And you have certainly no connection with ancient Macedonians, since they spoke Doric Greek, as I explained earlier. Bitola was founded as Heraclea Lyncestis by Philip II of Macedon, 400 years before Christ. Slavs entered Bitola 1.000 years later. So you may live in a city founded by Macedonians, but your ancestors arrived one millenium later. So you may call yourself a Macedonian, but you certainly have no connection at all with ancient Macedonians. Think about it, if you move to Iran, your children will not be descentants of Xerxes.
@@perikliszekakis3411 You speak Engish , so you can't have any connection to anything ancient .and the word greek or Greece only came about since , 1821 . Thats a modern name . Show me one ancient script or a coin with the word greek or greece lol . My son doesn't speak my mother tongue , in just one generation . Macedonians didn't vanish , we evolved . Even the English , don't speak the same language that they did , thousands of years ago . Your king otto created schools and a history for you people . youtube fake greek history and see for yourself .
Leonidas of Epirus (Greek: Λεωνίδας ο Ηπειρώτης) or Leuconides (Greek: Λευκονίδης), was a tutor of Alexander the Great. A kinsman of Alexander's mother, Olympias, he was entrusted with the main superintendence of Alexander's education in his earlier years, apparently before he became a student of Aristotle.
Whatever dialect Alexander the great spoke he certainly didnt speak any slavic dialects.The slavs came into the balkans 1000 years after Alexander the great.
After the victory at Granikos river, Alexander sent to the Parthenon in Athens 300 enemy armors with the Greek writting sign "Alexander son of Philip and the Greeks ,without Spartans, from the barbarians who reside in Asia" (from The campaign of Alexander by Arrian). This was done to thank godess Athena which means he followed the ancient Greek religion! He wrote "and the Greeks without Spartans" which means that he considered his army, an army of Greeks! Finally the name Alexander itself is Greek (same as Philip) and means he who can't be vanquished by any man! I can't imagine someone in ancient times who would adopt a foreign name. Even today I can't imagine a Christian named Mohammed for example.. Those are undisputed facts. Macedones (the real ones) were and are Greeks. P.S. I congratulate you for the will to learn Greek but I would like you to be more diligent with the pronunciation. The word "κοινή" is pronounced "kini" (which means common) and not "koine"...
Of course he wrote in Greek language he was taught by one of the greatest writers to ever live. Just because you are living in U.S and write English doesn't mean you are born here. You could be an immigrant from Mexico, Greece, Italian. The Greek language was well known back then just like English it's now. Alexander was a mutt my child. He even fought against the Greeks and whoever stood in front of him. So stop with these nonsense. Biological Alexander had illyrian blood was from Macedonian wrote and spoke multiple languages and conquered everything he could!
@@thepitmanbull1877 Herodotus(Ηρόδοτος), defined the meaning of the word "Nation" as the community of people which has the same blood (όμαιμον), the same language (ομόγλωσσον), the same religion (ομόθρησκον) and the same ethos/customs (ομότροπον). All of these are common in Macedonians and the rest of the Greeks, because they were natives of the Greek peninsula! The example about the U.S,is irrelevant because they have no relation with the NATIVE people of the land. If it was so, they should be speaking Apache or Cherokee. By the way... Aristotelis was not a "writer" like Stephen King for example... He was one of the greatest PHILOSOPHERS my child...
He's using an ancient pronunciation according to a linguistic reconstruction which according to evidence is correct, where as your suggested pronunciation is at best the one of late Byzantine and modern greek not the one of antiquity from Homer to Alexander the Great
I like that you point out the "geopolitical" aspect of things. Most people today forget that ancient Greece was not one country but many. All with their own ambitions and policies and extreme regionalism. As a language expert you know that certain words can be used as insults without reflecting reality. For example in modern Greece, people call others whom they want to offend as "Roma" (by using the non-politically-correct-word of course staring with G). That doesn't mean the people called that way do in fact belong to that minority group. Similarly the word barbaros in ancient times was most likely used in a similar fashion. I also remember my history teacher telling us many years ago, how Pyrrhus of Epirus, when he first encountered the Roman army saying to his subordinates "these Romans don't look that bararian to me after all", which means that according to that teacher of mine, the word was also used as uncivilised/ unorganised and general insult. Unfortunately I don't remember the source, if someone does know of it please mention it.
In another video of yours about Macedonia, I made a comment which I repeat here, where your post is more relevant. My comment was as follows: “Since you have dealt with the language of ancient Macedonians and are such a deep connoisseur of languages, I would like you to consider the possibility that the language of ancient Macedonians was the Koine, or something close to it. In all the cities founded by the Macedonians, there were Greeks from other cities and Macedonians who stood out because they were politically dominant. The Koine that was developed during that time in Alexandria is likely to have had a significantly larger percentage of Macedonian influence and a smaller Attic influence. After all, this dialect that eventually became the Koine must have already been cultivated in the cities of the Athenian alliance located in Chalkidiki and other colonies in the north. Therefore, the Koine, the language of the ruling Macedonians, should be a direct evolution of the Macedonian language, naturally influenced by Attic, which was the language of most Greeks and where significant texts were written, giving it increased prestige.” I would greatly appreciate it if you could make a comment as a response to what I am writing to you.
Although it is known that it is not mutually intelligible with other Hellenic languages, it was indisputably a Hellenic language. But we must not forget that Hellenic is a language family like Germanic or Slavic, not a single language. Even today, there are Hellenic languages that are not mutually intelligible with Standard Greek.
If you consider that in German we actually also have 3 different dialect groups (low German, Alemannic and Bavarian) and that most Germans aren't able to understand the Alemannic dialects spoken in Switzerland, I find it very logical to assume Attic speakers couldn't understand speakers of another dialect group. I once watched an Austrian movie in Viennese dialect and it had subtitles in standard German for the Germans.
Brilliant analysis, Luke! Aside from what was already mentioned about the political accusations of being βάρβαροι, their dialect actually might sound more like bar-bar than we think. In the known lexicon of Macedonian words, most unvoiced consonants become voiced, like Φ to Β thus making it sound more literally like "barbarbar". We see this with the Bryges, whom the Macedonians said changes their name to Phryges when entering Asia Minor. These would seem to me that the changing of unvoiced to voiced may have been a sort of sprachbund in the southern Balkan region, especially if we consider Phrygian/Brygian to be a close relative of Greek. Eitherway, when a culture lives on the fringe, there is always a mixing and melding of the neighboring culture, especially before the creation of the modern nation state.
Our neighbor in Illinois brought over her dad from rural Cyprus. My wife is Byzantine girl from islands near Istanbul. Knows church Greek a lot more than many Gteeks from Greece, plus modern Greek. They could barely understand ech other unless he slowed down and explained many words. I recall pne funny one was the word for wedding dress was the word for hauze curtains in the other dialect. Love you videos Luke. Note mislaid eyeglasses, expect typos.
I believe that one of the most important sources about the Macedonians being part of the Greek world, comes from the Persians themselves. In the lists founded in Persepolis , in which are listed all the people , under the king Darius the first rule, the Macedonians are called as "Yuna Tabakara". "Yuna" which comes from the "Ionian", is the word that the people of the East use for calling the Greeks since nowadays "Yunan" etc and "Tabakara" means the particular cover for the head, that Macedonians wore. So.. even the Persians , who were the greatest rival's of ancient Greeks, they referred to the Macedonians as Greeks, 200 years before Alexander the Great.
Well since you mentioned Aeolic, remember the stories we Greeks had about the last cataclysm...the 4th according to Greeks. According to Hesiod the only survivor on last cataclysm was Deucalion (the Greek Noah so to speak) and his son Hellen forefather of all Hellenes (Greeks) had 3 sons : Lacon, Achaios and Aiolos who among his many sons and daughters had Macedon /Makednos forefather of Macedonians. This was of course a parable explaining the various Greek tribes and also on it's basis they were Greeks having the right to participate in the 4 great religious festivals biggest of whom was the Olympics but also explains what you mentioned about a connection between Aeolian and Macedonian.
If that were the case, why do most foreigners choose to learn with an American English accent instead of a British one? I honestly favor the latter for foreigners, but your snide remark is defeated by essentially every fact available.
@@polyMATHY_Luke The snide remark is meant to support the interpretation of Demosthenes as purely political. He didn't want Macedonians to be seen as proper Greeks. If their language had not been essentially Greek, it wouldn't have been classified as such by others. It must have been closer to Greek than Italian is to French.
It’s like saying the Spartans spoke Spartan????they were Greek kingdoms .. They were all Greeks and United by Alexander… Barbarics is only written in the writing in the liberal writings of that time and you disregard all the other time he was called a Greek from ancient scripts.. you pick and chose 👎
4:45 Aeschines called Demosthenes a "barbarian" while expressly excluding any "non-Greek language" meaning of this word: "[...] Demosthenes of Paeania took to wife. She it was who bore your busy-body and informer. From his grandfather, therefore, he would inherit enmity toward the people, for you condemned his ancestors to death and by his mother's blood he would be a Scythian, a *Greek-tongued barbarian*-so that his knavery, too, is no product of our soil." Also Demosthenes himself was not referrring to any language when talking about Philip (and not about Alexander III by the way) and he did not even expressly call him a barbarian but a "a pestilent knave from Macedonia". So he was referring to Philip's character in a hyperbole, not his language, as he also said that there was nothing Greek about Philip, which cannot be true given also that Philip was a multiple Olympic winner, where only Greeks could take place. Also his grandfather took part in the games... One just has to read the "letter sent to Obama about Macedonia", signed by hundreds or renowned scholars, to learn about how Greek the Macedonians were and how Greek their language was, instead of watching random wishy-washy videos that may also have an agenda...
The Epirotes were thought of as barbarian because they had a monarchy. Yet they spoke Greek. Maybe southern Greeks felt a sense of superiority and couldn't accept Greeks who bowed down to a King as 'Greek'.
I seriously doubt that there are many persons on earth who can conversationally converse in Attic Greek. Reading Attic Greek & being orally conversational are quite different.
Creo que es como tu dices en tu ejemplo del francés comparado con el italiano y el español en su pronunciación. Probablemente el dialecto macedonio era más influenciado por los reinos y tribus del norte de los balcanes que por sus hermanos helenicos del sur. Como dijiste con el francés que es un idioma romance pero que su pronunciación fue más influenciada por las lenguas germánicas. La verdad muy interesante este video!!!
I think of it as a similar difference to American vs Australian English. They're clearly distinct and can be easily sorted but they're hardly different languages. Even if you imagine one day that the US went into decline and was conquered by Phillip of Australia it's still going to lead to a fundamentally anglo/liberal society deapite a few differences and technically being foreigners. It's not comparable to being conquered by China for instance.
Amazing video established on hard facts. Especially your nuanced point about the political character of Demosthenes’s shtick with Philip and Alexander due to Athens having lost the supremacy of the Hellenic world to Macedonia. May I just suggest a further enrichment of your sources with Hesiod who talks extensively about the legendary origins of Macedonians. According to Hesiod (as cited in Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus, On the Provinces of the Byzantine Empire [Lob Classical Library 503, p. 49]) The region of Macedonia was named from Macedon, the son of Zeus and Thyia the daughter of Deucalion, as the poet Hesiod says [...] and she [Thyia] became pregnant and bore to Zeus who delights in the thunderbolt two sons, Magnes and Macedon who delighted in the battle-chariot, those who dwelt in the mansions around Pieria and Olympus (Catalogue of Women, fr. 7). Hesiod's description also provides the original territorial limits of the brothers' lebensraum - "the mansions around Pieria and Olympus". Both Macedon and Magnes are initially presented as grandsons of King Deucalion - son of Prometheus and father of Hellen, the eponymous ancestor of the Hellenes (Hall, 2002, p. 139) - who originally "ruled over Thessaly" (Hesiod, fr. 6). While all the above are not of linguistic nature, but more of an ethnological one, it’s still a valid argument in favour of what you are talking about that if Macedonians are Hellenes then it is only natural that they spoke some form of Greek.
Apostle paul knew the greek language , when he visited macedonia (neapoli, filippoi, amfipoli, thessalonica, veroia, apollonia, ) he was able to communicate with them and preach the gospel, because Macedonias spoke Greek, it was the same language he also used when he visited Athens, Corinth, Cecheres, Creta , Asia Minor, etc.
(reply to your deleted comment insulting me) The ancient Macedonian language had died out by Paul's time for one. Secondly, even if it was still spoken, Greek was the lingua franca, meaning that most people in the area spoke it, even if it wasn't their mother tongue. I'm getting the impression that you are an unpleasant person.
@@BurnBird1 the Macedonian language never died, it evolved like the other Hellenic dialects into modern Greek, there is no evidence for the existence of another language dialect besides Greek in that period, see pella tablet 375 b.c and It's the same vocabulary that Paulus used in his letters . It means for 400 b.c until 1 century was the same language. Pella tablet : en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pella_curse_tablet
@@Dimitris_Gr. Macedonian dialect, language, whatever. The point is that it was no longer as distinct as it had been. Hence the point about your comment being irrelevant. Let's say that the Macedonians spoke a dialect different enough to be called a language distinct from Greek, it would have been replaced by Greek regardless. Plus, like I said before, if they spoke a completely different language unrelated to anything else on earth, they would have still known Greek as a lingua franca. Does the fact that Paul was able to speak to the Romans evidence that they didn't speak Latin, but a dialect of Greek? I'm not arguing that it wasn't a dialect of Greek, only that your point about Paul being able to speak with people there 400 years after Alexander is irrelevant.
@@BurnBird1I can not understand why you find the point with Paulus irrelevant since the topic of the video is the language spoken by the ancient Macedonians, shouldn't we not take many facts together? For example the findings from Macedonia b.c and Macedonia a.c ? Anyway.
Excellent presentation as always Luke. For us of Greek heritage, there is no doubt that Alex was a Greek. There is a modern political movement from the former yugoslav republic of Macedonia that the ancient Macedonians were not Greek and that this Slavic nation are the descendents of the Ancient Macedonia. With due respect to our brothers and sisters there, the hard evidence does not support that hypothesis. According to John Lane - Fox who wrote a book on Alexander, the Macedonians did speak a heavy dialect of Greek, possibly a form of Doric. Just as some ignorant views from modern Greece that Cypriot Greeks do not speak correct Greek. The Cypriot dialect as you must know, originates from Arcadia, Greece and has a, beautiful connection to ancient form. I don't think there is any evidence that the ancient Macedonian dialect has any connection with the language spoken today by the people of modern day Macedonia. Θαυμζω πάρα πολύ το ταλέντο που έχεις για τόσες γλοσσες, είσαι πράγματι πολύ μάθεις....
If I "name just one" then you would immediately dismiss it, say it doesn't count, then continue to believe you are right. A proper researcher or academic or historian would be able to steelman the other side-you immediately became obtuse.
@ugabugabagaga I also stated thar historians and experts would disagree with you because the ancient Macedonians had their own identity, though clearly also spoke a form of Greek and had some Greek influences. Have you actually studied this, or are you just someone commenting without even knowing there is much research and nuances into the subject?
Its similar to Troy and Troyans speaking their dialect and during war not even considering themselves to be Greek. Like you have some ukrainians that do not consider themselves to be Russian. Oh and of course the further you go north from Pella the less similar the dialect would have been to ancient Greek. Alexander bringing his translator in retinue doesn't mean he didn't understand anything or didn't speak, but that he wanted accurate and precise formal wording without confusion or double meanings for diplomacy sake.
mythologically, the Trojans were relatives of the rest of the Greeks and their royal families married among them. The Trojan War is essentially a civil war, the only difference was the different nations from the interior who were allies of the Trojans.
Alexander brought translators for the nations beyond the Greek territory, but not when he was speaking to the rest of the Greeks, such as in the Corinthian conference, in his army when before a great battle, when he was speaking with the Thebans, in the Delphic amphictyonia and .and.. we have many dialogues of Alexander with philosophers, priests, artists .......
There is no "modern" Macedonian.Macedonian is a Greek dialect since forever , the Vardar Slavs of Bulgarian origin , speak Bulgarian with some Serbian influence.
Ancient Macedonians were speaking Greek, particularly what is classified by scholars as a dialect of Northwest Doric Greek (Friedrich Wilhelm Sturz , Olivier Masson, Michael Meier-Brügger). Doric was spoken in a vast area, including northern Greece (Acarnania, Aetolia, Epirus, Macedonia), most of the Peloponnese (Achaea, Elis, Messenia, Laconia - Sparta, Argolid, Aegina, Corinth, and Megara), the southern Aegean (Kythira, Milos, Thera, Crete, Karpathos, and Rhodes), as well as the colonies of some of those regions in Cyrene, Magna Graecia, the Black Sea, the Ionian Sea and the Adriatic Sea. It was also spoken in the Greek sanctuaries of Dodona, Delphi, and Olympia, as well as at the four Panhellenic festivals; the Isthmian, Nemean, Pythian, and the Olympic Games (Roger D. Woodard (2008), "Greek dialects", The Ancient Languages of Europe, Cambridge University Press). However, the prestige language of the region during the Classical era was Attic Greek (Athens), replaced by Koine Greek during the Hellenistic era (Joseph, Brian D. (2001). "Ancient Greek").
As a native Greek, I have to say that ancient Macedonians were undoubtedly Greek. They could communicate with the other greeks because they were able to understand each others dialect. They believed in the same gods. They had the same celebrations, rituals etc. They fought together against common external enemies. They had foundamental things in common.
While I agree that the ancient Macedonians were speakers of a dialect like those of Classical Greece, and their culture was also akin to contemporary Greeks, what does your being a native Greek have to do with it?
@@polyMATHY_Luke as a native Greek I understand the language very well and also I have studied ancient Greek language and history at school direct from the ancient texts, not some distorted and inaccurate translation. I have and had access to more accurate information than others.
@@d3r4g45 of course we are not the same, as nobody is with their ancestors. But we are definatelly biological descendants. As of their culture and heritage, this is spread worlwide to everyone.
Being Greek and having studied ancient Greek since my younger days in high school, I can asure you for ONE thing. Ancient Greek is one of THE MOST difficult languages to master, even for us who modern Greek is our native language. On the other hand is THE MOTHER of all languages spoken in Europe, Americas, Australia. Even in a part of India they do speak Greek, because they are descendants of soldiers left there since Alexander's time.
not to diminish the glory of the ancient greek language, but the romance languages that the European nations speak nowadays do not share a greek origin but a latin one. The only resemblance is the greek alphabet that the Romans borrowed from the Greeks, apart from many greek word loans of course that is.
@@Basil-HD You are totaly wrong. Below is a link of speach given in English uning ONLY greek words by Xenofon Zolotas, back in 1959 during the anual meeting of the IMF and the International Bank ruclips.net/video/2XAcuxFqk9k/видео.html
I come from Aetolia, Greece and it is well known that, since the ancient times, the rest of our Hellenes (greek) brothers, found it difficult to understand us and our neighbours, Acarnanians, because we used to cut-out vowels in between consonants and so our definitely hellenic (greek) dialect, sounded strange or even uncomprehendable to them. It almost still goes the same today. Our locally spoken idiom of modern greek is often difficult to be understood by other greeks and even sounds funny to them. The same happens in Larissa, Thessaly. Are we not Greeks? For goodness, of course we are!! 1000%! Well, that's also the story of Macedonia and the rest is both ancient and modern politics! The state (falsely) called Northern Macedonia has no greek inhabitants anymore and they speak no greek at all, they speak a slavic language instead. Therefore, they are not Macedonians in inheritance and origin. They are a different people, that happen to have taken and inhabit a small part of the ancient Macedonian territorries. Macedonia has always been greek. We, as greeks, would rather be proud of other people wanting to be named after our ancient names, they would just have not to be covetous usurpers of our history and our lands, as well as international liars about the historical origin of their own language and themselves.
The story about the origin of the modern macedonian peoples was invented and propagated by the Greek government. It's funny how you all pretend not to know this.
@@zesky6654 The history of the Macedonians (one of the ancient hellenic people) is well documented and not invented by anyone. It's strange how much the self-called "modern macedonian people" chose to ignore it. Sometimes illusions are so massive and go so deeply underconsiously, that you have to try make any rational uninterested observer accept your false beliefs or else they'll have to tolerate your constant silly drama about it.
Cypriot here. Nowadays the so called neocypriots claim that our dialect is actually a language. The fact that we practically speak the same way as the Dodecanesians and , mainly, that no Greek needs translation in Cyprus or the other way around is irrelevant to them. POLITICS...
So, long story short, we have evidence that 🇬🇷Macedonian🇬🇷 was a Greek dialect, and we have a politically motivated debate about not being one. Pretty much like today! Case closed!
Hi, yes...from the evidences you presented here, ancient Macedonian was definitely part of the Greek dialects. As far I can understand, Macedon being always in the fringes of the Greek homeland and being neighbors with also foreign people's (like Peonia, Thrace, Illyrian) have been a bit away from the developments of the southern Greeks, kept old traditions and institutions that southern Greeks have long before get rid off and when Phillip II proclaimed himself Hegemon of all Greece, traditional powers like Athens didn't lose any time to used all these facts against Macedon for propaganda. Nothing knew of course, unfortunately we have seen this quite often in history. Thank you for the video!
Its not weird to exist different dialects from the same language and are not fully understandable to each other. Even today there are dialects between the languages. For example there is the Cypriot Greek which is difficult to fully understand someone from mainland Greece. Similarly its difficult to understand the English of Scotland. So why to be weird in the antiquity for the southern Greeks to have difficulty to fully understand the Greeks of Macedonia?
I hope that a video on the Doric Dialects of Ancient Greek (hopefully with many examples of the Spartan dialect Lakonian) may be soon on the horizon, however I do not want to make this sound as a reinforcing "do this video now!!" - type of comment, best regards to all!!
🪙 νή τω Κύνα. Απ' τ' Άργος. Chaos ArgeAD. Ακόμα και με τα ακρωτηριασμένα Νέα Ελληνικά, still we can Read it Λουκά. Για ρώτα τους Σλάβους aka(Fyrom), if they can read it lol.
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We Greeks don't expect other peoples to teach us our history!! (history, even the word is Greek) we know who Alexander was, who was his grandfather, his father, his mother, his cousin and his whole family!! Alexander conquered almost all of Asia and left Greek inscriptions everywhere in the Greek language!!
But I don’t understand we everybody cares about our heroes and our language and our history!!! Take care about your heroes please ( Spider-Man, Batman,etc etc)
I have my own theory on this...😊
I studied ancient Greek for 10 years and I lived in Greece for 6 years.😮
In ancient Greece, ancient Greek language, there were no such words as homosexual or heterosexual, because the very notion didn't exist.
Everyone had anal sex
Both men and women of culture, hence Theater.🎉
Because anal sex makes you having a look in yourself from outside and it kills the animal inside you.
That's why Greeks called all the people who didn't have anal sex : barbarians....
And that's why they had a theater...
PS: Greek people nowadays really hate the truth because the orthodox church hates Hellenism and closed the academy of Platon in 529 and all the gymnasia and killed 30 000 teachers to make sure nobody is going to learn how to read and write, that was in 532 and the dark middle ages started.
People even started to believe earth was flat, before everyone knew it was a sphere.
So that's why I don't live in Greece anymore, those people have real issues.
Since 2010 one Million of Greeks moved abroad because they can't stand those fascist Greeks that live there now, the majority of them....
Platon wrote that everyone is born a barbarian and that it takes many years of morphosis to become a Hellen.
Nowadays those fascists in Greece say that you can be born Hellen 😂
Lmao, one of the most stupid nation I ever lived in 😂
@@athanasioskaraviotis5987
Make yourself a DNA test, it costs just 70 Euro and you'll finally understand that you're just a Turk 😂
@@athanasioskaraviotis5987 Δες το βίντεο και όχι τον τίτλο
To the fellow Greeks who got clickbaited, no worries, YES the Macedonians were a northern Greek people and YES they spoke a rough but intelligible dialect of Greek. The overwhelming majority of archaeological evidence supports that, and as far as Demosthenes is concerned, the words of one of their Athenian sworn enemies should be taken with a huge grain of salt. That's all.
And please, don't bring our confused northern neighbors into this or be rude to @polyMATHY_Luke, he asks a fair question and provides a fair and balanced analysis. There's nothing wrong with asking a question.
Indeed; in fact it’s possible that the Macedonian dialect was perfectly intelligible to the southern Greeks and that the latter were just being silly. We have very little testimony of any kind. But if we go by the Pella curse tablet it was just Greek
@@polyMATHY_Lukeexcept pela tablet another great archaeological finding was the Derveni papyrus that is classified as the oldest book in Europe and again the greek language in this papyrus is some weird dialect .
@@polyMATHY_LukeI think that some Athenian,for example,accounts were intentionally making seem like the Macedonian dialect was further apart from other Greek dialects,just because they were resentful and didn't like the Macedonians or their ruling system
@@thegreekguy1124sounds like people from Hamburg talking about us Bavarians.
We have a lot of examples of Greeks lobbing charges of being "barbarians" at each other. Athenians even accused eachother of that.
Every bad Greek was a barbarian (same still goes for today, unfortunately they are the majority these days... 400 years of Turkish occupation harmed the country immensely. But I think we are getting somewhere).
@@georgenic64 That's complicated to be honest. It's kinda bad to blame the Turkish Occupation, many Greeks (Romans at the time) were prestigious and fluent economically (especially the ones in Anatolia). The ones you are referring to ironically were the Romans of Rumelia and of course the Arvanites (whom were Greek speaking populations from Modern day Albania). Most of the Eastern influences were mostly blamed on the Turkish Occupation when the Hellenic Republic was created in 1830 in favor to the Western Hellenic perception. But what if i told you that the Greeks always had Eastern influences and always called the Westerners Barbarians? 🤔.
@@demetriusstiakkogiannakes1326 What the fuck are you talking about ?? Of course back then the Western Europeans were barbarians. Question is what happens now… what you say about the Arvanites and the Greeks from Rumeli is completely irrelevant
@iumaser3219 Sorry but what you say is wrong. The non-Greeks were indeed barbarians and the word had the meaning back then as uncivilized (how can it not be like this when they were living in caves like the primitive man and the Greeks were exceling in arts, science, complex architecture and many many more...). That is of course the reason why the Roman Empire was Hellinised in the later years,
cause everyhting magestic in science, literature etc... was produced by the Greeks
They was barbarian, half of them was thracian origins
Only Greeks could participate in the Ancient Greek Olympics. Macedonians participated in the Ancient Greek Olympics. Therefore, Macedonians were Greek.
You seem to not know history:
A) Macedonians did not get to participate.
B) Only the royal household did, AFTER they provided proof they descended from Greece.
@@Aleks_Ovski416 You have no idea what you're talking about...Kliton of Macedon was the Olympian of the stadium race in the 113th Olympiad and he was definitely not royalty...btw you're not "Macedonians" but confused Bulgarians
@@apmoy70 btw, the academic world doesn't agree, cope harder and go learn about genetics and Balkan history. Greeks are mixed with Turks and Slavs haha cope.
@@Aleks_Ovski416I don't care about genetics, Greekness has always been a cultural identity and not a racial one, Τὸ τῶν Ἑλλήνων ὄνομα πεποίηκε μηκέτι τοῦ γένους ἀλλὰ τῆς διανοίας δοκεῖν εἶναι καὶ μᾶλλον Ἕλληνας καλεῖσθαι τῶν τῆς παιδεύσεως τῆς ἡμετέρας ἤ τῶν τῆς κοινῆς φύσεως μετέχοντας - Isocrates
Exactly
7:00 In modern day Greece, there are at least 5 dialects (from Crete to Macedonia) that a non local Greek will be hard pressed to understand the spoken language , so the premise of this video holds true to this day.
and there used to be around 15 or more dialects back in byzantine times
would you call present day people from thesalloniki "barbarians" or "foreign"?
would you need them to prove in court they are greek?
@@d3r4g45 Well, if you are a representative sample of the area in question it would be a hard case indeed.
Joking aside, you totally missed that there were political reasons for the name calling and any differences in language didn't really matter. If he couldn't make a case about the way they speak, it would be about gods or social habits anything that would unite his audience against a common "alien enemy".
It is standard practice that is widely used to this day by politicians around the world.
@@d3r4g45
1) The ancient Greeks called other Greeks barbarians on multiple occasions. They did so for political reasons.
2) Thucydides considered the Macedonians to be Greek.
3) Herodotus also considered the Macedonians to be Greek.
4) They did prove in court that they were Greek.
5) The Persians also considered the Macedonians to be Greek.
6) All epigraphic, topographic and numismatic evidence directly tells us that the Macedonians were Greek. Pella Curse Tablet being the most obvious example, but there are loads more.
7) If we look at non-Greek peoples who adopted Greek culture or letters, such as the Illyrians or the Thracians, they still left traces of their own language. They had their own names. Their own gods. Even the Romans, a people thoroughly entranced by Greek culture, never presented themselves as Greek. If the Macedonians were not Greek, how come we have not found a single shred of evidence of their own unique language? Did they destroy all physical evidence of ever being non-Greek?
@@manos7958 MAKEDONIJA IN SOUTH EVROPA.
you in area " " .
It is almost certain that even the name MAKEDONIA is of Greek etymology, because the Macedonians are called MAKEDNON by Herodotus, and the same word is used in Homers Odyssey to describe things that are TALL.
First Herodotus:
👇🏻
".. For in the days of king Deucalion it inhabited the land of Phthia, then the country called Histiaean, under Ossa and Olympus, *in the time of Dorus son of Hellen; driven from this Histiaean country by the Cadmeans, it settled about Pindus in the territory which it called MAKEDNON;* from there again it migrated to Dryopia, and at last came from Dryopia into the Peloponnese, *where it took the name of Dorian* .."
-Herodotus
[Histories 1.56.3]
«.. ἐπὶ μὲν γὰρ Δευκαλίωνος βασιλέος οἴκεε γῆν τὴν Φθιῶτιν, ἐπὶ δὲ Δώρου τοῦ Ἕλληνος τὴν ὑπὸ τὴν Ὄσσαν τε καὶ τὸν Ὄλυμπον χώρην, καλεομένην δὲ Ἱστιαιῶτιν: ἐκ δὲ τῆς Ἱστιαιώτιδος ὡς ἐξανέστη ὑπὸ Καδμείων, οἴκεε ἐν Πίνδῳ *Μακεδνὸν* καλεόμενον: ἐνθεῦτεν δὲ αὖτις ἐς τὴν Δρυοπίδα μετέβη καὶ ἐκ τῆς Δρυοπίδος οὕτω ἐς Πελοπόννησον ἐλθὸν *Δωρικὸν ἐκλήθη* ..»
-Ἡρόδοτος
[Ἱστορίαι 1.56.3]
NOTE: Notice how he talks about the migrations of these people that came to be known as the Dorians & how they first settled in a Region & called it Macedonia. DORIANS are 100% a Greek people, one of the major tribes of the Ancient Greeks.
And here is Homer using the word to describe something TALL:
👇🏻
".. and others weave webs, or, as they sit, twirl the yarn, like unto the leaves of a *TALL* poplar tree; and from the closely-woven linen the soft olive oil drips down .."
-Homer
[Odyssey 7.105-106]
«.. αἱ δ᾽ ἱστοὺς ὑφόωσι καὶ ἠλάκατα στρωφῶσιν ἥμεναι, οἷά τε φύλλα *Μακεδνῆς* αἰγείροιο: καιρουσσέων δ᾽ ὀθονέων ἀπολείβεται ὑγρὸν ἔλαιον ..»
-Όμηρος
[Ὀδύσσεια 7.105-106]
*ΜΑΚΕΔΝΟΝ = ΜΑΚΕΔΝΗΣ* it is formed by the same root WORD 100% it just has different declensions because one describes an object, and the other is used to describe the Name of a Region. They are documented by our Ancient sources as being referred to a few variations of this word, but for the most part the people would have come to call themselves ΜΑΚΕΔΝΟΙ [ΟΙ = plural] and ΜΑΚΕΔΝΟΣ [singular] and then through Metathesis it would eventually become ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΙΑ. It is important to NOTE that the Macedonian dialect shows DORIC Greek Dialectal forms as opposed to IONIAN ATTIC Greek. One of the primary differences between these two Greek dialects is the Shift between Α & Η (E sound). This is why the root of this word ΜΑΚΟΣ (MAKOS) was pronounced by Athenians as ΜΗΚΟΣ (MEKOS). Today, in modern Greek, the IONIAN ATTIC form survives, the precursor to Koine & the "chosen" of the Macedonians themselves!
About the name & it’s meaning. According to Herodotus, the Original Macedonian Dorians first settled in the Highlands west of the Plateau & they lived next to a group of people who called themselves Orestai and their region Orestes which we know meant something like "Mountain Men", which is why most Linguists believe that MAKEDNOI, who also lived in the Mountainous Territories next to them probably called themselves "Highlanders" or People who lived UP HIGH or TALL AREAS. [They later moved down to the Plains & drove away the Pierians as Herodotus tells us]. The name could also be for their actual Physical Height as well, we are not sure, but the first theory is the most likely.
Hope this reaches Luke: In southern Italy there is a very ancient dialect of greek still spoken (Salento and Calabria), grecanico, a variant of greek descendant from the Magna Graecia and the Byzantine times. Maybe grecanico is hundreds if not thousands years old! but now is fighting to survive.
What, I come from Calabria and do not speak greacono at all. We have a dialect of the Italian language. Not Greek.at all.
@marcpaola1371 they speak it in some villages....
@jimskoutas1933 maybe, I have family all around Calabria and they haven't come across people speaking grecanio. Must be a very tinny group
@marcpaola1371 yes it is sadly. It's slowly dying
These are the tribes from Africa which settled first in Sicily, and when roman Emperor Claudius was camping in that region everything his soldiers had, they were robbed by these settlers in the area. So Claudius named them Magna Graeko, which means great thieves. This is the tribe of Dan, known as Danaians, which settled in Europe from Africa, reaching Macedonia and Sicily. In Macedonia they came in white robes and with gifts in their hands, with nice gesttures, mimicking humble and nice peoples.....the next generation claimed the land as their own. Does this sound familiar to the people in EUROPE????
Their decendants rule you and open doors to destruction of europe.
That what today is happening to Europe that is swarmed by radical immigrants who will chase you away from your homes, is the karma for what you have done to Macedonia. Keep supporting the arteficial creature greece that you have created on MACEDONIAN LAND. You have done injustice to Macedonia supporting the crimes done by the greeks. They chopped heads just as todays radicals are doing it in the middle east. Even your European newspapers at those times not too long ago just one centrury appart back from today, were publishing photos of the beheaded Macedonians and their heads stuck on spikes by these bloodthirsty "founders of democracy"
Karma is a bit ch.
5:42 As you say, the term “barbarian” did mean foreigner and/or non Greek-speaking, indeed. However, word meanings have all sorts of nuances. Thus, “barbarian” also came to mean uneducated, primitive, less developed in matters of language and culture compared to what was perceived as the norm. As such, it could-and indeed was-used for Greek peoples too, especially those who lived at the frontiers of the Greek world and couldn’t rival the erudition of classical Athens. Remember, the Greek world was an amalgamation of ethnic groups (Ionians, Dorians, Aeolians) with all sorts of dialects, local customs and history, geopolitical affiliations and government systems-not a nation-state. Macedonians were not unique in this regard.
οἱ δὲ Θρᾷκες καὶ Ἰλλυριοὶ καὶ Ἠπειρῶται καὶ μέχρι νῦν ἐν πλευραῖς εἰσιν: ἔτι μέντοι μᾶλλον πρότερον ἢ νῦν, ὅπου γε καὶ τῆς ἐν τῷ παρόντι Ἑλλάδος ἀναντιλέκτως οὔσης τὴν πολλὴν οἱ βάρβαροι ἔχουσι, Μακεδονίαν μὲν Θρᾷκες καί τινα μέρη τῆς Θετταλίας, Ἀκαρνανίας δὲ καὶ Αἰτωλίας τὰ ἄνω Θεσπρωτοὶ καὶ Κασσωπαῖοι καὶ Ἀμφίλοχοι καὶ Μολοττοὶ καὶ Ἀθαμᾶνες, Ἠπειρωτικὰ ἔθνη.
And even to the present day the Thracians, Illyrians, and Epeirotes live on the flanks of the Greeks; indeed most of the country that at the present time is indisputably Greece is held by the barbarians-Macedonia and certain parts of Thessaly by the Thracians, and the parts above Acarnania and Aetolia by the Thesproti, the Cassopaei, the Amphilochi, the Molossi, and the Athamanes-Epeirotic tribes.
Strabo, Geography 7.7.1
As you can see, not only are Greek/Hellenized tribes like the Athamanians are called barbarians, probably for their obscure origin and cultural backwardness (from their part, they identified as Greeks, of course), but Macedonia is listed among the par excellence Greek territories that are partly held by the barbarians, namely Thracians.
Hillary would have called them "deplorables." (-:
No it didn't!!!👀
Most Romans didn't speak Greek yet they weren't considered barbarians....
@@Rasarel They were. The Greeks of southern Italy called the Romans barbarians. In fact, the greek king Pyrrhus after the battle of Heraclea said:
"We call these guys barbarians, but this army doesn't look very barbaric to me"
@@deniszt.6302
Ok, I had in mind 100BC-100AD
The Roman golden age classical period.
Because in those times Romans have been studying Greek since childhood..☀️
Do you have actual proof that the word barbaric was used this way during this time or is it again just baseless interpretations because the original meaning being just non greek makes the most sense.
And the added meanings of the words could have evolved much later in time which makes it impossible to prove
Saying Macedonians are not Greek, its like saying Austrians are not Germanic.
Or as saying that New Yorkers are not Americans
People from north Macedonia are mostly not greek
@@goatgamer001 «North Macedonia» has nothing to do with ancient Macedonia
or like saying that North Macedonians are not Bulgarian
@@BoyanCRACKS which they are
Are you kidding me? Yes it was. Alexander's dynasty was called Argead, which means from Argos. In fact, when Macedonians had to compete in the Olympics, they had to prove their Greekness and they did.
Hahaha go cry like a baby. Alexander is 🇲🇰
I' m Greek and I know my Language. Alexander's Father was named Filipos. In Greek Language filos means friend and ippos is the horse. Filipos is someone who likes horses very much. His mother's name was Olimpiada. It means the time among Olympic Games, four years. Alexander (Αλέξανδρος) is somebody who protects the people (Άλεξ = protect Αλεξίσφαιρο = bullet proof, Άνδρας = man). His Sister name was Thessaloniki. In Thessaly was a Greek Tribe that Filipos Conquered. Nike means Victory. Filipos named his daughter Thessaloniki, in memory of this victory. All these names are Greek. Alexander's horse name was Voukefalas. Vous is the Ox. Kefali is the head. Voukefalas means a very big head, like oxAll his Generals had Greek Names. Macedonians loved the same Gods and took part in Olympic Games
The internet is full of videos of filos that love horses ippos
On a more serious note, do they teach all Greeks in primary school to recite this?
@@AleksPTA all Greeks Know the meaning o word Φίλος. It means Friend
Awesome insight! (I'm currently learning Greek). Ευχαριστω!
Bro imagine if you were greek and didn't know your language lol
@@AleksPTAgood one bro
I could imagine that ancient Macedonian was to Greek what modern Swiss dialects are to modern German.
Someone from Hamburg will not be able to understand a Swiss speaker at all, someone from Bavaria can understand something, someone from Swabia will understand a lot.
Also consider that Greeks from the mainland today find it very difficult to understand Cypriots and Rhodians when they speak their local dialects. Nevertheless those dialects are part of the Greek language group.
Hamburger here can confirm that most non-linguistic north germans have a hard time understanding the swiss dialect even when "clearly" spoken. I myself have been able to understand it due to linguistics background
who are the greeks today? Greece exists for the first time in history in 1821, which is called the beginning of the war against the Ottoman invasion, from the time of Alexander the Great until 1821, we did not write anything about Helenen , not a single note, not a single thing, The Ottoman Empire did a census of the population every 5 years based on the religion and the language they spoke at home. before the Ottoman Empire, there were the Venetians who had population registrations in the areas under the rule of Venice and around it. we have the formation of the Greek State for the first time in History, we also have heroes who fought and died for Greece in 1821,and all 100 Heroes are Albanians,the Majority in Greece in the year 1830 are Albanians mean Arvanites ,in Athen the Kadaster from Athen have 8000 Houses. the most of them are living Albanian speaking population the minority are other Ethnies.Around Athens living 100 % Albanian People .
Some folks don't mince their words. Let us also remember the Tsakonians & Pontic Greeks. It is only a century since the reform of the Ottoman Empire's Anatolian territories into modern Turkey alienated the Greeks from ancestral aboriginal homelands there pre-dating Hellenic Greece. Among those were Caria of which the term Barbarian was first coined. And what of the Trojans? The Latins claimed them for ancestral family, but did they speak Aromance tongue? Was Wilusan the ancestor of Wallacian Vlach - a relative of Albanian - the ancestral tongue of Egypt's last dynasty?
@@kocoqape8061 the people living today in Greece are people descending from the populations around the whole Mediterranean and the black sea who settled there in the millennium BC and who spoke Ελληνικά. The descendants of those first settlers kept speaking Ελληνικά throughout the last 3000 years and still speak Ελληνικά. In fact the Greek communities in Egypt, Ukraine , Romania and Italy up to today speak Ελληνικά and identify as Έλληνες (Hellenes).
Due to the various Balkan wars and especially due to the treaty of Lausanne many Greeks living today in Greece have ancestors from areas outside the borders of the country, because the Greek speaking minorities were expelled (many also were killed, but that's another story). So in fact most Greeks living today descend partly from the Greek populations that used to live in today Turkiye, Bulgaria, Ukraine, Romania, Albania and Egypt.
Keep in mind all conquerors of the Greeks were in numbers a minority on the Greek territories. The Romans, the Venetians, the Knights, the Turks and the Italians never outnumbered the local population and due to religious issues they also rarely mixed.
On the other hand modern Turks due to the deshvirne system and the habit of wealthy Turks to have Christian female slaves for sex and procreation, have in large proportion ancestors from the local Christian populations they conquered, especially Greek and Armenian.
So if you think modern Greeks do not descend from ancient Greeks, you're misinformed. It's just that they moved around a lot in the last 3000 years.
@@helgaioannidis9365 His comment wasn't really worth answering. He is obviously delusional. He will soon argue there are no Kurds - because there exist no Kurdish state.
*The Macedonians were Greeks*
👇🏻
The Macedonians were Greek from the very beginning. Even the earliest findings in Macedonia from the 7th Century BC found in Aiani & other parts of Upper Macedon (The Proto Homeland) with names like Themida, Pleoni, & Machatas, are ALL GREEK. Unlike the Illyrians & Thracians who's names had 10% Greek influence (Maximum, due to prestige) the Macedonians were overwhelmingly Greek, their entire culture attests to it! And not just Universal Greek names, many of the Macedonian Names were Epichorial, meaning that they were UNIQUE GREEK NAMES TO MACEDONIA & the MACEDONIANS !!!!
There are many surviving Macedonian words & rules for words that we have. We know the Macedonians used Berenike instead of Ferenike like in Athens for example, or Danos instead of Thanos, Magaira instead of Machaira, Kebali instead of Kefali. We also have, as mentioned in the video, the PELLA CURSE TABLET, most Linguists believe that this is the longest single item that has the Macedonian Dialect on it, and it is undoubtedly Greek.
👇🏻
1. [ΘΕΤΙ]ΜΑΣ ΚΑΙ ΔΙΟΝΥΣΟΦΩΝΤΟΣ ΤΟ ΤΕΛΟΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΟΝ ΓΑΜΟΝ ΚΑΤΑΓΡΑΦΩ ΚΑΙ ΤΑΝ ΑΛΛΑΝ ΠΑΣΑΝ ΓΥ
2. [ΝΑΙΚ]ΩΝ ΚΑΙ ΧΗΡΑΝ ΚΑΙ ΠΑΡΘΕΝΩΝ ΜΑΛΙΣΤΑ ΔΕ ΘΕΤΙΜΑΣ ΚΑΙ ΠΑΡΚΑΤΤΙΘΕΜΑΙ ΜΑΚΡΩΝΙ ΚΑΙ
3. [ΤΟΙΣ] ΔΑΙΜΟΣΙ ΚΑΙ ΟΠΟΚΑ ΕΓΟ ΤΑΥΤΑ ΔΙΕΛΕΞΑΙΜΙ ΚΑΙ ΑΝΑΓΝΟΙΗΝ ΠΑΛLΙΝ ΑΝΟΡΟΞΑΣΑ
4. [ΤΟΚΑ] ΓΑΜΑΙ ΔΙΟΝΥΣΟΦΩΝΤΑ ΠΡΟΤΕΡΟΝ ΔΕ ΜΗ ΜΗ ΓΑΡ ΛΑΒΟΙ ΑΛΛΑΝ ΓΥΝΑΙΚΑ ΑΛΛ Η ΕΜΕ
5. [ΕΜΕ Δ]Ε ΣΥΝΚΑΤΑΓΗΡΑΣΑΙ ΔΙΟΝΥΣΟΦΩΝΤΙ ΚΑΙ ΜΗΔΕΜΙΑΝ ΑΛΛΑΝ ΙΚΕΤΙΣ ΥΜΩΝ ΓΙΝΟ
6. [ΜΑΙ ΦΙΛ]ΑΝ ΟΙΚΤΙΡΕΤΕ ΔΑΙΜΟΝΕΣ ΦΙΛ[Ο]Ι ΔΑΓΙΝΑΓΑΡΙΜΕ ΦΙΛΩΝ ΠΑΝΤΩΝ ΚΑΙ ΕΡΗΜΑ ΑΛΛΑ
7. [....]Α ΦΥΛΑΣΣΕΤΕ ΕΜΙΝ Ο[Π]ΩΣ ΜΗ ΓΙΝΕΤΑΙ ΤΑ[Υ]ΤΑ ΚΑΙ ΚΑΚΑ ΚΑΚΩΣ ΘΕΤΙΜΑ ΑΠΟΛΗΤΑΙ
8. [....]ΑΛ[-].ΥΝΜ .. ΕΣΠΛΗΝ ΕΜΟΣ ΕΜΕ ΔΕ [Ε]Υ[Δ]ΑΙΜΟΝΑ ΚΑΙ ΜΑΚΑΡΙΑΝ ΓΕΝΕΣΤΑΙ
9. [-]ΤΟ[.].[-].[..]..Ε.Ε.Ω[?]Α.[.]Ε..ΜΕΓΕ [-]
^^^Any Greek child that has completed Elementary school can understand this even today! The Macedonians are THE BIGGEST reason that the Greeks speak the Greek Language the way they do today since they standardized KOINE, which has changed very little as far as wording & structuring of sentences as well as vocabulary.
Here are a FEW examples of Macedonian Names & Words found in Manuscripts & on Inscriptions they left behind. Almost ALL Ancient Macedonians (99%) had Greek names...all these names & words are Greek, with many being Uniquely "Macedonian Greek". All their Calendar Months, their Troop Formations, their Oronyms, their Hydronyms, their City Names, their Epithets, their Nicknames, & even their Ethnonym..etc:
👇🏻
Makedonia, Pella, Aegae, Aiani, Amfipolis, Herakleia Lynkestis, Dion, Astraion, Europos, Filippoupoli, Filippoi, Alexandroupoli, Thessaloniki, Alexandreia, Boukefaleia, Eschate, Profthasia, Petra, Xylopolis Archelaos, Karanos, Pausanias, Alexandros, Filippos, Ptolemaios, Seleukos, Antigonos, Antiochos, Demetrios, Kassandros, Lysimachos, Parmenion, Filotas, Krateros, Koinos, Alketas, Argaios, Orestes, Neoptolemos, Arridaios, Archon, Hegelochos, Filoxenos, Menandros, Apollodotos, Leonnatos, Leonidas, Attalos, Amyntas, Hefaistion, Nearchos, Kleitos O Melas, Kleitos O Leukos, Peukestas, Perdikkas, Meleagros, Polyperchonis, Dionysios, Olympias, Bereniki, Laodiki, Eurydiki, Laniki, Hellas, Theoxena, Fila, Stratoniki, Arsinoe, Kleopatra, Andromache, Boukefalos, Perittas, Poliorketes, Keravnos, Soter, Nikator, Theos, Anikitos, Euergetes, Auletes, Barypous, Eupator, Nikiforou, Kallinikos, Epifanes, Filopator, Filometor, Dikaiou, Gonatas, Doson, Fyskon, Tryfon, Helios, Selene, Basileus, Strategoi, Hegemones, Tetrarchos, Speirarchos, Cheiristes, Grammateis, Archyperetai, Asthetairoi, Hetairoi, Pezhetairoi, Hypaspistes, Argyrasipides, Fylax, Somatofylax, Filoi, Syntrofos, Efodos, Ekkoition, Stegnopoiia, Skenopoiia, Fragmos, Diastasis, Parembole, Stratopedon, Falanx, Magaira, Konos, Knemides, Aspis, Thorax, Hemithorakion, Obola, Drachma,
It is almost certain that even the name MAKEDONIA is of Greek etymology, because the Macedonians are called MAKEDNON by Herodotus, and the same word is used in Homers Odyssey to describe things that are TALL.
First Herodotus:
👇🏻
".. For in the days of king Deucalion it inhabited the land of Phthia, then the country called Histiaean, under Ossa and Olympus, *in the time of Dorus son of Hellen; driven from this Histiaean country by the Cadmeans, it settled about Pindus in the territory which it called MAKEDNON;* from there again it migrated to Dryopia, and at last came from Dryopia into the Peloponnese, *where it took the name of Dorian* .."
-Herodotus
[Histories 1.56.3]
«.. ἐπὶ μὲν γὰρ Δευκαλίωνος βασιλέος οἴκεε γῆν τὴν Φθιῶτιν, ἐπὶ δὲ Δώρου τοῦ Ἕλληνος τὴν ὑπὸ τὴν Ὄσσαν τε καὶ τὸν Ὄλυμπον χώρην, καλεομένην δὲ Ἱστιαιῶτιν: ἐκ δὲ τῆς Ἱστιαιώτιδος ὡς ἐξανέστη ὑπὸ Καδμείων, οἴκεε ἐν Πίνδῳ *Μακεδνὸν* καλεόμενον: ἐνθεῦτεν δὲ αὖτις ἐς τὴν Δρυοπίδα μετέβη καὶ ἐκ τῆς Δρυοπίδος οὕτω ἐς Πελοπόννησον ἐλθὸν *Δωρικὸν ἐκλήθη* ..»
-Ἡρόδοτος
[Ἱστορίαι 1.56.3]
NOTE: Notice how he talks about the migrations of these people that came to be known as the Dorians & how they first settled in a Region & called it Macedonia. DORIANS are 100% a Greek people, one of the major tribes of the Ancient Greeks.
And here is Homer using the word to describe something TALL:
👇🏻
".. and others weave webs, or, as they sit, twirl the yarn, like unto the leaves of a *TALL* poplar tree; and from the closely-woven linen the soft olive oil drips down .."
-Homer
[Odyssey 7.105-106]
«.. αἱ δ᾽ ἱστοὺς ὑφόωσι καὶ ἠλάκατα στρωφῶσιν ἥμεναι, οἷά τε φύλλα *Μακεδνῆς* αἰγείροιο: καιρουσσέων δ᾽ ὀθονέων ἀπολείβεται ὑγρὸν ἔλαιον ..»
-Όμηρος
[Ὀδύσσεια 7.105-106]
*ΜΑΚΕΔΝΟΝ = ΜΑΚΕΔΝΗΣ* it is formed by the same root WORD 100% it just has different declensions because one describes an object, and the other is used to describe the Name of a Region. They are documented by our Ancient sources as being referred to a few variations of this word, but for the most part the people would have come to call themselves ΜΑΚΕΔΝΟΙ [ΟΙ = plural] and ΜΑΚΕΔΝΟΣ [singular] and then through Metathesis it would eventually become ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΙΑ. It is important to NOTE that the Macedonian dialect shows DORIC Greek Dialectal forms as opposed to IONIAN ATTIC Greek. One of the primary differences between these two Greek dialects is the Shift between Α & Η (E sound). This is why the root of this word ΜΑΚΟΣ (MAKOS) was pronounced by Athenians as ΜΗΚΟΣ (MEKOS). Today, in modern Greek, the IONIAN ATTIC form survives, the precursor to Koine & the "chosen" of the Macedonians themselves!
About the name & it’s meaning. According to Herodotus, the Original Macedonian Dorians first settled in the Highlands west of the Plateau & they lived next to a group of people who called themselves Orestai and their region Orestes which we know meant something like "Mountain Men", which is why most Linguists believe that MAKEDNOI, who also lived in the Mountainous Territories next to them probably called themselves "Highlanders" or People who lived UP HIGH or TALL AREAS. [They later moved down to the Plains & drove away the Pierians as Herodotus tells us]. The name could also be for their actual Physical Height as well, we are not sure, but the first theory is the most likely.
The etymologies of Filippos & Alexandros are all 100% Greek.
👇🏻
There are HUNDREDS of names (And words) found all over the ancient Greek world that START or end with the Greek Roots: FILO or HIPPOS as well as ALEX & ANDROS.
Here are a few words that you can recognize that are also used in English which are all of GREEK ULTIMATE ETYMOLOGY
👇🏻
FILOsofia-------Philosophy
IPPOdromo -----Hippodrome
Androkratia-----Androcracy
FytoALEXine-----Phytoalexin
And here are a just a FEW EXAMPLES of similar names in Ancient Greece & which also exist in Modern Greece:
👇🏻
Filippos- Friend of Horses
Lysippos- Unleasher of Horses
Anaxippos- Ruler of Horses
Archippos- Lord of Horses
Menippos- Vigor of Horses
Alexippos- Protector of Horses
Aristippos- Best of Horses
Igisippos- Leader of Horses
And also:
👇🏻
Alexandros-Protector of Man
Lysandros-Unleasher of Man
Menandros-The Vigor of Man
Kassandros-The Shining Man
Euandros-The Good Man
Leandros-The Lion-like Man
Nikandros-The Victory of Man
Filandros-The Friend of Man
Kleandros-The Glory of Man
Amynandros-The Defender of Man
Anaxandros-The Ruler of Man
Archandros-The Lord of Man
Alkandros-The Strength (Prowess) of Man
Aristandros-The Best (Excellence) of Man
Igisandros-The Leader of Man
Timandros-The Honorable Man
Thersandros-The Bold Man
Kratandros-The Strong Man
^^^^There are maybe THOUSANDS of names in Ancient Greece that use these Greek roots. It is TOO MANY to list !!!
✅ The Macedonians were Greek by every Metric! Most importantly, they stated that they were Greeks themselves! 🇬🇷
Nope.
Thank you Luke for speaking so balanced and being so respectful about an issue that we still defend today!
Except that the US doesn't, and never did if truth were told. The idea that John Adams cared about real democracy is so absurd.
Great work! What further augments the "Greekness" of Macedon is the Greekness of the name itself. And although this has repeatedly been stressed, it should be further noted that the particle Μακ-, which also appears as μηκ- in other Greek dialects and which refers to length of height/stature, is used to this day throughout Greek, as in μακρύς δρόμος = long road, μήκος = length, μακρόκοσμος=macrocosm, etc.
According to you, the word "Grieci" should be the ancient Romans themselves because it is a Latin word. lol
@@ermirdestaniABSOLUTELY NOT!
The word GRAIKOI is of GREEK ULTIMATE ORIGIN….NOT LATIN 😃
My suggestion: Read more Books 📚 from PHD Historians & Linguists & skip the "cheap-thrill" google search Propaganda! 👍🏻
@@SpartanLeonidas1821 No it is not. Just make a research in diferent sites and you will see. Here is what i found "From Latin Graeci, the name given by the Romans to the people who called themselves the Hellenes, from Greek Graiko.", there is nothing wrong here.
@@SpartanLeonidas1821 First, change your nickname, then tell me what to read.
@konstantintrehagyrevopoulo972 can you proove that "AL@ANIANS came to the region from Al@ania-kaukasus 1200 A.D"??? The word Albania is a Latin name and there are many such. Maybe the Albanians came from Scotland because Scotland it is also called Alba by the locals.
A modern Greek can read and almost fully understand the text on the Pella Curse Tablet. None can beat this.
Thank you polýMATHY.
Show me where it says greek on it , antcient Macedonian .
@@baits9301 You want me to show you where on the (ancient - 4th BCE) Pella Curse Tablet writes "Made in Greece"? Ha, ha, haaa!! All Greeks, thus the Macedons as well, could always read it; it is written in Doric Greek, you know, a dialcet of the Greek language, the language of the Greeks to this very day. Modern Slavomacedonians, well, they are Slavic speaking Slavs with no relation to the ancient Macedonians who were Greeks.
@@papertoyss You speak English , but your not an Engish man , try tell an Irishman his English . Macedonian will decide who they are . Not call Macedonians for nothing . You should getb your own name first . You are a creation of king otto .
@@baits9301 Professor Toni Deskoski, Skopje, Slavomacedonia, On Camera, *February 2018,*
_"We tried to replace our identity, to inject ancient Greek "DNA", culture and history, in our society, in order to change our collective memory, the memory of a _*_Slavic nation._*_ We tried to present and to _*_promote ourselves_*_ as an ancient Macedonian nation. _*_The ancient Macedonians were actually Greeks._*_ It was a very crazy attempt to present a Slavic nation as Greek nation and that caused a great confusion within our State."_
@@papertoyss......
SKOPJE TOWN. PEOPLE IN MAKEDONIJA -- M A C E D O N I A N S ! !
I have always just known it as a fact that Macedonian Greek was a Doric dialect, I don't really understand what the debate is about 😅
Thanks for a really interesting video Luke 👏😎
Exactly. They were from the Argead dynasty from Argos, Greece were they spoke the Doric dialect.
Well he did say it's like comparing Italian with French..
@@d3r4g45 ?? Irrelevant
@@georgenic64 why lol?
Probably because some contemporaries also claim it seemed more Ionian. There might've actually been two different dialects there.
we also have the Macedonian plate in Greek language
I read the tablet and it reads like a simplified version of classical Greek. I had no doubt i was reading Greek
Indeed, that was my feeling.
@@polyMATHY_Luke yeah ok ``indeed`` so then how can you say that south Greeks could not understand the Makedonians ?
@polyMATHY_Luke It was sometime ago...I couldn't understand some of the words but it was clearly something similar to Koini Elliniki which made me wonder whether Alexander coined a new language or just simply adapted Attic Greek to his own dialect ...I'm not familiar with linguistics, when was the tablet written and when was koini invented??
@@Καντηλαναυτης perhaps the same way a modern greek will not understand 80% of Cypriots speaking while he will undestand 90% of it if he read the same in text.
@@nikoszaronakis1862 δεν μπορείς να καταλάβεις τους Κύπριους ; Εγώ μπορώ πολύ άνετα …
To all the people commenting that the concept of Greece is a modern one I want to know what you're smoking
@@supermavro6072 dude you think ancient Greeks were black🤣🤣
@@supermavro6072
And later on the Balkans became even more diverse when our turkalbanian ancestors came here from central Asia in the 15th century
@@supermavro6072 🤣🤣🤣🤣
the term hellas makes an appearance in homer's iliad , nation states are modern by definition
@@wankawanka3053 the term serb.... from sheep.
All the Macedonians had Greek names. Stop Vardarskan or anyone else's propaganda
Αν δεν ξέρεις Ελληνικά
ΔΕΝ μπορείς να διαβάσεις
Τις επιγραφες και τα αρχαία κείμενα......
The word Greek never existed before 1821 or Greece , who gave you your name . Macedonia still exists .Stop stealing history .as your own .
@@baits9301 Graekos is a mythical person and the name existed. We names ourselves ellines. If you cannot accept it, it's your problem. Millions of tourists have watched our macedonian heritage all over Macedonia. Not in Vardarska
You people thnk every thing in this world is greek . Ancient Macedonian . we now have out own names , as to be different to yours SKI . A bit like your Anatolian christian turks with Turkish name change . That now call themselves greek . Why so many names . Just stick to one . Lucky king otto gave you a name . Or you still wouldn't have kown your name .
@@baits9301 That's irrelevant because the Greeks never called themselves "Greek" to begin with. That said, the word "Greek" existed well before 1821 and comes from the ancient "Graikos". So you are double wrong.
It’s pretty relatable in a way that Attic Greeks would talk about the Macedonians and the way they speak in that way!
Even nowadays Greeks of different regions do the same thing (in a more friendly manner). My mother is Peloponnesian and her best friend is Cypriot and they always rib each other about the ‘weird’ Greek the other speaks.
Να ‘σαι καλά, Λουκάς!
True. I live in Rhodes and my father learned to speak Greek here. He later moved back to Germany and took Greek lessons there. His teacher wad from Athens and would constantly tease my father about his pronunciation and vocabulary not being Greek, but "Anatolian". But of course people on Rhodes speak Greek, it just is a dialect similar to Cypriot.
Pontic Greek is also very difficult to be understood by Grecians! Cyprus has also many dialects and very heavy accents that many Cypriots cannot understand each other!
Tis very true, Cypriot Greek is unintelligible to standard modern Greek if the Cypriot speaker chooses to use all the most divergent words and phrases.
I knew Luke would have a nuanced interpretation.
@@helgaioannidis9365
God how I hate those teachers that want to kill all the dialects, and languages and impose in bloody french revolutin manner the standard, a.k.a the politics chosen one.
😁the most funny dialect I heard is on Crete, south west village named Sougia.
The particular word is fifty: "peninda"
They say almost "pedinda" 🤣🤣
Ancient Macedonians were speaking an archaic form of western Greek / Doric language, that was part of the wider Greek language tree (Thessalian influence was also a fact as you mentioned, due to proximity), that lasted about until c. 350 BC, when the ascend of Philip II and Alexander afterwards. In the years that follow, the incorporation of new tribes, kingdoms and ethne inside the greater Macedonian kingdom / empire, made Hellenistic koine the main language, with many similarities from Attic / Ionic dialect. In addition, before the establishment of the Hellenistic koine and the expansion of the kingdom, the change from a more archaic form of Greek, to the Attic dialect was taking place. That was accomplished by bringing scholars from Athens to teach and enlighten the Royal Pages and other prominent Macedonian members of aristocratic families, at the era of Philip II. - Grigorios Charalampidis, PhD candidate of Ancient History, D.U.Th., Greece.
Very informative video on the ancient Macedonian dialect. Regarding the "barbarian" term here's how ancient Greeks used it, or rather some ancient Athenian politicians.
The ancient Greeks - particularly the Athenians, like Demosthenes - often used the word “barbarian” to insult and/or mock other Greeks. In other words, “barbarian” also meant “uncivilised”. Aeschines called Demosthenes a “barbarian”, Demosthenes called Philip, a Macedonian, and Meidias, an Athenian, “barbarians”, etc. Here are a few examples of Greeks insulting other Greeks by calling them “barbarians”:
Aeschines:
“But to be free from accusation, that was a thing which depended upon fortune, and fortune cast my lot with [i.e: referring to Demosthenes, who was an Athenian] a slanderer, a barbarian, who cared not for sacrifices nor libations nor the breaking of bread together.” (Aeschines, “On the Embassy”, 2.183)
Demosthenes:
“And yet, though he has thus become the possessor of privileges to which he has no claim, and has found a fatherland which is reputed to be of all states the most firmly based upon its laws, he seems utterly unable to submit to those laws or abide by them. His [i.e: Meidias, an Athenian] true, native barbarism and hatred of religion drive him on by force and betray the fact that he treats his present rights as if they were not his own-as indeed they are not. ” (Demosthenes, “Against Meidias”, 21.150)
“Is he [i.e: Philip II, a Macedonian] not our enemy? Are not our possessions in his hands? Is he not a barbarian?” (Demosthenes, “Third Olynthiac”, 16)
Atheneaus:
“And when he was asked again, according to the account given by Hegesander, which were the greatest barbarians, the Boeotians [i.e: Greeks] or the Thessalians [Greeks], he said: 'The Eleans' [Greeks].” (Athenaeus, “The Deipnosophists”, 8.42)
Plato:
“Was he not reproaching Pittacus for not knowing how to distinguish words correctly, Lesbian as he was, and nurtured in a barbaric tongue?” [i.e: referring to the Aeolic dialect, one of the major Greek dialects] (Plato, “Protagoras”, 341c)
Aristophanes:
[i.e: Strepsiades, an Athenian], “a man ignorant and barbarian.” (Aristophanes, “Clouds”, 491)
As for Demosthenes,
“The speeches of Demosthenes, that deal with Philip as the enemy, should not be interpreted as an indication of the barbarian origins of Macedonians, but as an expression of conflict between two different political systems: the democratic system of the city-state (e.g.Athens) versus the monarchy (Kingdom of Macedonia).” (Nicholas Hammond, British historian and expert on Macedonia, in an interview with the magazine “Macedonian Echo” in February 1993)
"Ancient allegations that the Macedonians were non-Greek all had their origin in Athens at the time of the struggle with Philip II. Then as now, political struggle created the prejudice. The orator Aeschines once even found it necessary, in order to counteract the prejudice vigorously fomented by his opponents, to defend Philip on this issue and describe him at a meeting of the Athenian Popular Assembly as being 'entirely Greek'. Demosthenes' allegations were lent an appearance of credibility by the fact, apparent to every observer, that the lifestyle of the Macedonians, being determined by specific geographical and historical conditions, was different from that of a Greek city-state. This alien way of life was, however, common to western Greeks of Epirus, Akarnania and Aitolia, as well as to the Macedonians, and their fundamental Greek nationality was never doubted. Only as a consequence of the political disagreement with Macedonia was the issue raised at all." (Malcolm Errington, “A History of Macedonia", University of California Press, 1993, p.4)
“Macedonian kings were proud of their Greek blood, and it was only jaundiced opponents like Demosthenes the Athenian who ventured to call them 'barbarians.'” (A. R. Burn, "Alexander the Great and the Hellenistic Empire", 1962, Macmillan, p.4)
“By Demosthenes the interval was spent rallying Greek opinion against 'The barbarian', as he unjustly and inaccurately called the Macedonian [Philip]". (“The Oxford Illustrated History of Greece and the Hellenistic World", p. 148)
Note also, that other Athenians, such as Aeschines and Isocrates, proclaimed the Greekness of the Macedonians. As for the Macedonians, we know they were Greeks. They spoke Greek, shared the same religion, cults and customs with the rest of the Greeks, the took part in the Pan-Hellenic sanctuaries and participated in the Olympics where only freeborn Greeks could participate, and, moreover, they identified themselves as Greeks:
“Now that these descendants of Perdiccas [i.e: the Macedonians] are Greeks, as they themselves say, I myself chance to know and will prove it in the later part of my history.” (Herodotus, “Histories”, 5.22)
I feel like it would have been a GREAT addition for Luke to mention these in his Videos.
It’s important to add context!
I knew that Athenian arrogant Demosthenis called macedonian Philip as barbarian
Now I'm happy that i learnt, Aeschines called Demosthenis as barbarian
😎 Cool
@@hrvatskiapoksiomen9......... jedi gljive.
@@tatjanavelkova5814
pojedimojkurac
Macedonia 🇬🇷 is Greece 😎
@@hrvatskiapoksiomen9... jedi gljive.
MAKEDONIJA E MAKEDONIJA ! ! !
The introduction to Ancient Greek dialects and this video both give me the faint hope that with each video, I’ll have a slightly less confusing understanding of the chaotic maze that Ancient Greek dialects are haha. Thanks for covering the subject.
Kind of off topic, but I really liked Oliver Stone’s approach to the accents in the Alexander film: the “Greek Greeks” all had RP British accents, whilst Macedonians had Irish, Welsh and Scottish ones. It cleverly explains to the audience the cultural and dialectal dynamic between the “Greek Greeks” and the Macedonians, by using the Scots/Irish/Welsh vs English relationship as an analogy.
It’s also an exceedingly clever usage of “show don’t tell: the script doesn’t need dialogue where we’re told which characters are Macedonian or not, the audience will know based on the accent.
(Actually the main reason was that Colin Farrell apparently had a hard time acting without his accent, but Stone still devised a cool creative trick around that). Alot of people give Farrel a hard time for his Irish Alexander, but miss the overall clever usage of accents in the film.
Thanks so much, my friend. Good for Stone for making such great use of that particular necessity!
I wouldn't say this distinction in dialects between the ''Greek Greeks'' and Macedonians to differantiate them was a good approach. Besides, the Thessalians with their original Aeolian accents were infamous for being the hardest to understand for the rest of the Greek tribes. (The Thessalian Cavalry comprised a big part of Alexander the Great's army)
The doric was similar to attic
Slightly differences
@@greektraditionalmusicchann5644 Yeah but you gotta look at it in the context of a film. Stone wasn't doing a documentary, he was tackling a dramatic story, and in the context of the screenplay he wrote, the cultural tension between the Macedonians and the southern Greeks is what happens in the story. The Thessalians don't play any part in the screenplay so giving them an accent or not is entirely irrelevant.
@@faryafaraji You are right. It is after all a Hollywood movie. All I'm saying is that Greek tribes like the Thessalians and Epirotes would have been as weird to the people we today consider ''Greek Greeks'' (mainly the south Dorians, the Ionians and their colonies) as the Macedonians.
Yes, I think you hit the nail on the head with your explanation. IIRC, Demosthones was not shy of calling anyone a barbarian he didn't like and even called another orator a barbarian (forgot his name). They probably brought Great Attic with them, because it was already well-developed for imperial use and recognized over a wide area. Granted, I don't know; we don't have the texts.
If we take the example of the romance languages, it is pretty obvious that there is continuum from the south of Spain to the North of France, even though in this case, the intermediary step, the Occitan language is no longer as widely spoken as it used to be. The same for Italian and French. I was very surprised to hear people in Milan say "cinq" instead of "cinque" to say five, even though they pronounce it as the word "sink" in English. Travelling was complicated, and the original Latin that split into different dialects eventually became quite difficult to understand when put at different places in this continuum. So it could make sense that the Macedonians spoke some variety of Greek that had become pretty difficult to understand, especially at a time when literacy was quite low. Furthermore, the Macedonians were in contact with other languages that might have influenced their own language. There is quite a literature about the influence of the Thracians on the Greek religion for instance.
There are some _idiots_ who say that Québécois is not French, for some weird reasons. I met someone from Toronto who spent many hours explaining to me that protecting French in Québec was ridiculous because it was not proper French. I even met French people saying the same kind of non sense. So no I'm not surprise that Greek authors would distance themselves from such a dangerous neighbor with this kind of rhetoric. It took me less that a week to be fully acquainted with Québécois.
Ironically, said idiot actually gave an even better argument for protecting the language. I mean if it is not French and as such a language unique to Canada, that means that if it dies in Canada it would be extinct, at least now it has France, neighbours and colonies to fall back on. I am not a native French speaker but it also took me a week or at most two to get used to it, and after a month I completely took over the accent (which took me a year to lose once I was in Belgium again)
@@hetwitblad6544 If your mother tongue is Flemish then it is an even better example than French, since there are so many different dialects, throughout Belgium and the Nederland, which are united by a common written language. When I was studying linguistics in Montréal, there was a professor from Belgium who explained to us how the written form of Dutch was organized. We are very far from the centralized way standard French is imposed on all French speaking countries.
It took me more than 10 years to get rid of my last québécismes... I stayed six years in Montréal... Ceci explique surement cela...
@@lesfreresdelaquote1176 Yes, I wonder if my origins in a highly dialectically diverse region (which on top of that, has been incredibly well documented), has something to do with my interest in linguistic variety and obscure languages and dialects.
@@hetwitblad6544 😂
Another excellent and informative video Luke, well done! I am Greek from Macedonia region and every time I hear the question whether "Alexander the Great (and ancient Macedonia in general) was Greek or Macedonian?" it reminds me of the question "Is Earth rounded or flat?"!!!
I don't need to mention the etymological meaning of names, the participation in Olympic games, the fact that Olympus mountain (the worship mountain of ancient Greek world) is located in Macedonia region, Aristotle's birthplace, the texts etc etc., just a simple visit to Vergina, Pella and Aegae tombs where you can read the texts on the tombs and the symbols you get a clear answer....
Absolutely! I suppose my question in this video is more about the spoken language of the Macedonians and how it fits into the Classical Greek dialects. We don’t have very much evidence to go on, but the Pella tablet is enough to convince me it’s West Greek.
@@polyMATHY_Luke well, certainly there were different dialects from region to region but the root was the same...some Doric Greek dialect which I am not expert to distinguish. The point is that it's a question of dialect difference and not language or ethnic background. You know very well that in Italy even nowadays there are hundreds of different dialects but the Italian language is the root.
I like the french analogy, also because, like the greeks called the macedoniams, us italians call the french barbarians, hell I still refer to it as gallia transalpina
There was no such thing as "Macedonian dialect".
Macedonians were speaking the Greek language like all other Greeks.
The only dialects existed in Greek language were Doric, Aeolic and Ionian or Attic dialect.
Macedonia is Greece 🇬🇷 😍 💙 ☦
Never was. Never will be. Even less for the present day "greek state".
Macedonia is older than Greece!
@@d3r4g45
It's been part of it for more than 100 years now 😂
@@yazdani3289
My fyrBulgarian 🇲🇰 ears are burnt and our slavobulgarian 🇲🇰 tongue says solun.
But Alexander's sister was Thessalonike 🇬🇷 not solun
Why Turkobulgarians 🇲🇰 call her solun?
On contrary, Greece IS Macedonia
As a Philadelphian originally from right in between Vergina and Pella near the foothills of Vermion where Aristotle had his school for Alexander and his friends, this one hit close to home in more ways than one.
One minor thing I may have mentioned was that the origin story of the Macedonian kingdom has its roots in the Argead empire from Argos in the Peloponnese.
You misspelled Virginia, Pennsylvania, and Vermont, all in one sentence, brother. Don't worry, I got you.
@@XenoFonia Funny 🙃
@@XenoFonia
Are you a Xenos with Xenia? Or just a Xenos that wants to learn other Fonia? 😀
Zeus wants to know.. ⚡️
@@SpartanLeonidas1821 the name's a play on Xenophon, xenophone, and xenophobia. My real name is nothing like this.
@@XenoFonia Hahaha! I figured it wasn’t, it was a joke 😃
great analogy between french and spanish. It is becoming clear nowadays that Illyrian was also a Hellenic dialect similiar to doric just like french and italian.
Thats a good video but I am a bit disappointed that you haven't mention the Macedonian glosses given by Hesychius of Aleksandria, which are crucial for the case. Left alone the toponymy and eponymy (also it is crucial to mention that the cradle of Macedon was montaneous Pieria, all the other lands like Imathia, Bottaia etc were conquered and colonized by original Macedonians but still remained with different non-Macedonian indigenous populations like Thracian or even some remnants of Phrygians in Edessa...
Similarly, so called upper Macedonia (Orestis etc) also shouldnt be taken into consideration, since it was originally an Epirote region belonging to the koine of Molossians!).
The glosses of Hesychius of Aleksandria became controversial because of regular occurence of δ instead of θ, γ nstead of χ and β instead of φ - (αιθηρ - αδη, θανων - δανων, κεφαλη - κεβλη, φρυες - αβρουτες) which seemed to make Macedonian much more closer to Phrygian rather than Greek.
But this controversy seemed to be possibly solved by Hatzopoulos, supported for example by Mendez Dosuna, who concluded after a meticulous research of regional Greek epigraphies that similar voicing was occuring also with usual, non-aspirated consonants (for example Αρτεμις Διγαια instead of - Αρτεμις Δικαια in one of the inscriptions) and found even a lot of peculiar spelling mistakes with that kind of voicing (for example υβό instead of υπό). It would suggest therefore that in Macedonian the PIE aspirated voiced stops didnt follow the same fate as in Phrygian but rather this anomaly was caused by regional voicing or even early spirantization.
The same kind of voicing occured also in Thessalian Perraiotia. They are also some other features which may link Macedonian dialect to Aeolic group
I dont know what to think about that and so I would like you to refer to it..
U are absolutely right about Demosthenes, like he was trying in every possible way to persuade his compatriots to not join forces with Macedon...So what he did was actually a form of propaganda..But it is wrong imo to take into account only his or his supporters opinions...There were also those who wanted Philip to lead the Panhellenic war against the Persians like Isocrates, so we need these opinions to be mentioned as well...Very good video, Macedonians were indeed speaking a form of Doric Greek, combined with elements from Illyrians and Thracians too, so probably that played an important role as well to why their language was unintelligible to Southern Greeks...
Everyone must KNOW THIS! I am very sorry for our propaganda. Here in North Macedonia people are crazy. Literally! Because of the politicians we were lied to for 80 years, this is insane.
whatever they spoke, it certainly wasn't Bulgarian
its said that the Makedonian rulers were ancestors of Heracles, much like in Lakonia (region of Sparta), and probably Makedonians had Doric dialect (spartan)
The Argead dynasty (Greek: Ἀργεάδαι, romanized: Argeádai), also known as the Temenid dynasty, was an ancient Macedonian royal house of Dorian Greek provenance. They were the founders and the ruling dynasty of the kingdom of Macedon from about 700 to 310 BC.
Their tradition, as described in ancient Greek historiography, traced their origins to Argos, of Peloponnese in Southern Greece, hence the name Argeads or Argives.
This is a wikipedia copy-paste. And its true. If macedons come from the Peloponese its not possible they spoke a language other than greek.
I was praying that you'd put in that clip from John Adams when you mentioned it. Thank you for answering it!
Hehe I’m glad you liked that. It was the first thing I thought of when I began researching
Είμαι Ελληνίδα Μακεδονίσσα μιλάω την ελληνική γλώσσα
Best facial hair in the game. Great video as always, Luke.
Macedonian language is DORIC... THUS Greek...
The other MγΑssedonia, 0f Dardania/ Peonia, a Vardar Province, SPEAKS.BULGARIAN. WITH AN IMPEDIMENT
Demo was half barbarian on his mom's side.
The worst thing a Greek could tell another Greek was you're a barbarian
Indeed he was
Alexander the Great spoke Greek because he was Greek, find something debatable, thats an easy question.
Spoke ancient Macedonnian , the word greek or greece never existed at the time , the romans decided to give you that name , and Macedonia wasn't part of any other Country .
10:20 Much like the one-way lack of understanding standard-American English speakers experience with, for example, a heavy Scottish Glaswegian accent. When I visited Glasgow, all tired and jet-lagged, I asked people to slowly repeat sentences an embarrassing number of times. Perhaps, it was a matter of a lack of exposure.
But Scottish and US Americans are not the same people. Just as Macedonians and Greeks are not.
The title is completely misleading. Of course they were Greeks that doesn't has to confused to different greek dialects or traditions. Each place or city-states have their own so as nowadays
The Macedonians participated in the ancient Olympics.
They were literally dorians. Guess who else was a dorian tribe, The spartans. Would you say that the spartans were not greeks?
What people usually don't comprehend is that Ancient Greece was a diverse region with various ethnic and cultural groups. It is important to note that the concept of race as understood today, based on biological characteristics, did not exist in ancient Greece. However, the ancient Greeks did have a sense of ethnic and cultural distinctions among different groups. Here are some of the prominent groups that existed in ancient Greece:
- Aegean: The Aegean people were considered the indigenous inhabitants of the region. They were likely a mix of various prehistoric groups, including the Minoans and Mycenaeans.
- Ionians: The Ionians were one of the major groups of ancient Greeks. They inhabited the coastal regions of Asia Minor (modern-day Turkey) and some of the Aegean islands.
- Dorians: The Dorians were another significant Greek group. They were believed to have migrated from the north and settled in the Peloponnese and other parts of southern Greece.
- Aeolians: The Aeolians were primarily located in the region of Thessaly and the island of Lesbos. They were considered one of the early Greek tribes.
- Macedonians: The Macedonians, led by Philip II and his son Alexander the Great, originated from the region of Macedonia in northern Greece. They eventually conquered much of the known world and spread Greek culture and influence.
- Thracians: The Thracians were an ancient people who inhabited the region of Thrace, which encompassed parts of modern-day Bulgaria, Greece, and Turkey.
- Epirotes: The Epirotes lived in the region of Epirus, located in the northwestern part of modern-day Greece and southern Albania.
It is important to recognize that ancient Greece was a complex and dynamic society, and there was significant interaction, migration, and cultural exchange among these various groups. The concept of Greek identity was more closely tied to shared cultural and linguistic traits rather than biological characteristics or race.
Ancient Greece was a cultural meeting point where, over the centuries, all the races that participated in it established and acquired a national consciousness, what we know today as Greek national consciousness or Hellenism.
Of course Slavs and Albanians didn't exist at that time.
"Both Herodotus and Thucydides describe the Macedonians as foreigners, a distinct people living outside of the frontiers of the Greek city-states" - Eugene Borza, In the Shadow of Olympus p. 96.
"Now that these descendants of Perdiccas are Greeks, as they themselves say, I myself chance to know and will prove it in the later part of my history. Furthermore, the Hellenodicae1 who manage the contest at Olympia determined that it is so, [2] for when Alexander chose to contend and entered the lists for that purpose, the Greeks who were to run against him wanted to bar him from the race, saying that the contest should be for Greeks and not for foreigners. Alexander, however, proving himself to be an Argive, was judged to be a Greek. He accordingly competed in the furlong race and tied step for first place. This, then, is approximately what happened." Hdt. 5.22
Majka na ALEKSANDAR Princeza OLIMPIJA od EPIR.
pred 25 veka EPIR na istok od MAKEDONIJA ! !
@@tatjanavelkova5814 A Greek from Epirus dip$hit, lol
If Alexander wasn't Greek why did he and his country have a Greek name? I can easily translate both using my ancient Greek. It's like saying George Washington was native American, because he was living in America.
He was greek!!!!
your name is from the Marvel Universe, so you a Marvel Universe character?
@@d3r4g45 my point exactly 💯💪😉
@@Thanos_Kyriakopoulos so you are a marvel character? lol
@@d3r4g45 I love Greek history ❤️
The word "barbaros" has a second meaning. It defines also the behaviour of somebody. I think it isnt necessary to explain, why the ancient Atheneans said about Spoartans, they behave barbaric. So, its very understandable why they, sameway called the "tall guys" (makednoi) from the north, barbarians. Because they werent that delicate and educated as the southern greeks..
Fantastic video as always, Luke! Can you do a video on Greece and Rome's enigmatic neighbours, the Illyrians, and the connection between their supposed language and Messapic and Albanian? The pre-Slavic Paleo-Balkan world north of Greece is a beautiful linguistic mystery to delve into.
Aren’t the Illyrians the ancestors of the Albanians?
@@Nom_AnorVSJediWell the technically yes but still needs more research but for now research has been positive its proven that Albanian lived Always in The balkans from 700Bc until today but not exactly who Illyrian or Thracian.
@@Nom_AnorVSJedi Most probably, because it would make perfect sense if they are. But we don't have definite proof yet. We don't even know for sure who the ancient Illyrians were, how much they were spread, if they were one people, if they all spoke one language, similar languages, or even different languages. They are a mystery, a fascinating one we all want to solve.
@@Nom_AnorVSJedi No, there is ZERO Academic Consensus on that!!!!
Zero Proof Linking them together. The Proto-Albanians may have lived closer to the Romanians, and further South have adopted a Handful of Greek Doric Words. They came South West MUCH LATER. Epirus was the cradle of the Hellenic Languages major Formation. 👍🏻
@@Notme17111the Albanians, as all historical sources attest already from 300 BC, have their origin from the Caucasus and were mounted troops of the Persians. They were almost always slaves of some empire. They did not have writing and used either Persian or Greek. They have nothing to do with the Illyrians, because the Illyrians are a kindred race of the Greeks and descend from Cadmus and the harmony that they, along with their line, originate from Thebes.
YES, the ancient Macedonians they spoke a Greek language. Why ? BECAUSE THEY WAS GREEKS
They spoke ancient Macedonian . Why because the word Greek or Greece never existed at the time . Your king otto taught you modern greek and gave you your name . Or who knows what you would have been calling yourselves , yunan , Hellas , Romans as you did in the middle ages . The Romans decided to call you Graecia . Seems you didn't know who you were .
@@baits9301 Ancient Macedonians spoke Doric/Dorian. There were several dialects, Aeolic, Doric, Ionic. All dialects were replaced by the Koine dialect during Hellenistic period. And the Romans named this language Greek.
You should study some history and linguistics in order to refer your opinion about Greek language, which is one of the oldest written languages that still exist today. A modern Greek can read and understand everything that is engraved on the stones of the ancient Greek sited, in Greece, Turkey, Egypt, Persia and South Italy.
My friend remember, "Half knowledge is worse than ignorance.”
we are not Greeks , i'm from Bitola , keep dreaming .
@@baits9301 If you speak a Slavic language similar to Bulgarian, then you are certainly not Greek. And you have certainly no connection with ancient Macedonians, since they spoke Doric Greek, as I explained earlier.
Bitola was founded as Heraclea Lyncestis by Philip II of Macedon, 400 years before Christ. Slavs entered Bitola 1.000 years later. So you may live in a city founded by Macedonians, but your ancestors arrived one millenium later.
So you may call yourself a Macedonian, but you certainly have no connection at all with ancient Macedonians. Think about it, if you move to Iran, your children will not be descentants of Xerxes.
@@perikliszekakis3411 You speak Engish , so you can't have any connection to anything ancient .and the word greek or Greece only came about since , 1821 . Thats a modern name . Show me one ancient script or a coin with the word greek or greece lol . My son doesn't speak my mother tongue , in just one generation . Macedonians didn't vanish , we evolved . Even the English , don't speak the same language that they did , thousands of years ago . Your king otto created schools and a history for you people . youtube fake greek history and see for yourself .
Leonidas of Epirus (Greek: Λεωνίδας ο Ηπειρώτης) or Leuconides (Greek: Λευκονίδης), was a tutor of Alexander the Great. A kinsman of Alexander's mother, Olympias, he was entrusted with the main superintendence of Alexander's education in his earlier years, apparently before he became a student of Aristotle.
Whatever dialect Alexander the great spoke he certainly didnt speak any slavic dialects.The slavs came into the balkans 1000 years after Alexander the great.
After the victory at Granikos river, Alexander sent to the Parthenon in Athens 300 enemy armors with the Greek writting sign "Alexander son of Philip and the Greeks ,without Spartans, from the barbarians who reside in Asia" (from The campaign of Alexander by Arrian).
This was done to thank godess Athena which means he followed the ancient Greek religion!
He wrote "and the Greeks without Spartans" which means that he considered his army, an army of Greeks!
Finally the name Alexander itself is Greek (same as Philip) and means he who can't be vanquished by any man!
I can't imagine someone in ancient times who would adopt a foreign name.
Even today I can't imagine a Christian named Mohammed for example..
Those are undisputed facts. Macedones (the real ones) were and are Greeks.
P.S. I congratulate you for the will to learn Greek but I would like you to be more diligent with the pronunciation. The word "κοινή" is pronounced "kini" (which means common) and not "koine"...
Of course he wrote in Greek language he was taught by one of the greatest writers to ever live. Just because you are living in U.S and write English doesn't mean you are born here. You could be an immigrant from Mexico, Greece, Italian. The Greek language was well known back then just like English it's now. Alexander was a mutt my child. He even fought against the Greeks and whoever stood in front of him. So stop with these nonsense. Biological Alexander had illyrian blood was from Macedonian wrote and spoke multiple languages and conquered everything he could!
@@thepitmanbull1877 Herodotus(Ηρόδοτος), defined the meaning of the word "Nation" as the community of people which has the same blood (όμαιμον), the same language (ομόγλωσσον), the same religion (ομόθρησκον) and the same ethos/customs (ομότροπον). All of these are common in Macedonians and the rest of the Greeks, because they were natives of the Greek peninsula!
The example about the U.S,is irrelevant because they have no relation with the NATIVE people of the land. If it was so, they should be speaking Apache or Cherokee.
By the way... Aristotelis was not a "writer" like Stephen King for example...
He was one of the greatest PHILOSOPHERS my child...
He's using an ancient pronunciation according to a linguistic reconstruction which according to evidence is correct, where as your suggested pronunciation is at best the one of late Byzantine and modern greek not the one of antiquity from Homer to Alexander the Great
Όλοι γνωρίζουμε ότι η Μακεδονία είναι ελληνική
Maybe not on topic, but that 'stache is absolutely magnificent
I like that you point out the "geopolitical" aspect of things. Most people today forget that ancient Greece was not one country but many. All with their own ambitions and policies and extreme regionalism.
As a language expert you know that certain words can be used as insults without reflecting reality. For example in modern Greece, people call others whom they want to offend as "Roma" (by using the non-politically-correct-word of course staring with G). That doesn't mean the people called that way do in fact belong to that minority group. Similarly the word barbaros in ancient times was most likely used in a similar fashion.
I also remember my history teacher telling us many years ago, how Pyrrhus of Epirus, when he first encountered the Roman army saying to his subordinates "these Romans don't look that bararian to me after all", which means that according to that teacher of mine, the word was also used as uncivilised/ unorganised and general insult. Unfortunately I don't remember the source, if someone does know of it please mention it.
I'd like to study Ancient Greek and Hebrew.. but in person... like, fully dedicated :D idk. it'd be cool
In another video of yours about Macedonia, I made a comment which I repeat here, where your post is more relevant. My comment was as follows:
“Since you have dealt with the language of ancient Macedonians and are such a deep connoisseur of languages, I would like you to consider the possibility that the language of ancient Macedonians was the Koine, or something close to it. In all the cities founded by the Macedonians, there were Greeks from other cities and Macedonians who stood out because they were politically dominant. The Koine that was developed during that time in Alexandria is likely to have had a significantly larger percentage of Macedonian influence and a smaller Attic influence. After all, this dialect that eventually became the Koine must have already been cultivated in the cities of the Athenian alliance located in Chalkidiki and other colonies in the north. Therefore, the Koine, the language of the ruling Macedonians, should be a direct evolution of the Macedonian language, naturally influenced by Attic, which was the language of most Greeks and where significant texts were written, giving it increased prestige.”
I would greatly appreciate it if you could make a comment as a response to what I am writing to you.
Although it is known that it is not mutually intelligible with other Hellenic languages, it was indisputably a Hellenic language. But we must not forget that Hellenic is a language family like Germanic or Slavic, not a single language. Even today, there are Hellenic languages that are not mutually intelligible with Standard Greek.
If you consider that in German we actually also have 3 different dialect groups (low German, Alemannic and Bavarian) and that most Germans aren't able to understand the Alemannic dialects spoken in Switzerland, I find it very logical to assume Attic speakers couldn't understand speakers of another dialect group.
I once watched an Austrian movie in Viennese dialect and it had subtitles in standard German for the Germans.
There is nothing to say it was not mutually intelligible; quite the contrary. And it is very debatable whether Ancient Greek was a 'language family'.
"Macedonia and Alexander the Great was not Greek
Source: "Trust me bro"… 💯
Maximas gratias tibi, Magister, et salve de Sicago…permulti Graece hic loquuntur, sed non Latine :(
Brilliant analysis, Luke! Aside from what was already mentioned about the political accusations of being βάρβαροι, their dialect actually might sound more like bar-bar than we think.
In the known lexicon of Macedonian words, most unvoiced consonants become voiced, like Φ to Β thus making it sound more literally like "barbarbar". We see this with the Bryges, whom the Macedonians said changes their name to Phryges when entering Asia Minor. These would seem to me that the changing of unvoiced to voiced may have been a sort of sprachbund in the southern Balkan region, especially if we consider Phrygian/Brygian to be a close relative of Greek. Eitherway, when a culture lives on the fringe, there is always a mixing and melding of the neighboring culture, especially before the creation of the modern nation state.
Balkan means nothing to the greeks
Our neighbor in Illinois brought over her dad from rural Cyprus. My wife is Byzantine girl from islands near Istanbul. Knows church Greek a lot more than many Gteeks from Greece, plus modern Greek. They could barely understand ech other unless he slowed down and explained many words. I recall pne funny one was the word for wedding dress was the word for hauze curtains in the other dialect. Love you videos Luke.
Note mislaid eyeglasses, expect typos.
I believe that one of the most important sources about the Macedonians being part of the Greek world, comes from the Persians themselves. In the lists founded in Persepolis , in which are listed all the people , under the king Darius the first rule, the Macedonians are called as "Yuna Tabakara". "Yuna" which comes from the "Ionian", is the word that the people of the East use for calling the Greeks since nowadays "Yunan" etc and "Tabakara" means the particular cover for the head, that Macedonians wore. So.. even the Persians , who were the greatest rival's of ancient Greeks, they referred to the Macedonians as Greeks, 200 years before Alexander the Great.
Well since you mentioned Aeolic, remember the stories we Greeks had about the last cataclysm...the 4th according to Greeks. According to Hesiod the only survivor on last cataclysm was Deucalion (the Greek Noah so to speak) and his son Hellen forefather of all Hellenes (Greeks) had 3 sons : Lacon, Achaios and Aiolos who among his many sons and daughters had Macedon /Makednos forefather of Macedonians. This was of course a parable explaining the various Greek tribes and also on it's basis they were Greeks having the right to participate in the 4 great religious festivals biggest of whom was the Olympics but also explains what you mentioned about a connection between Aeolian and Macedonian.
The whole civilised world thinks of people with an American accent as barbarians. Demosthenes was right ;)
If that were the case, why do most foreigners choose to learn with an American English accent instead of a British one?
I honestly favor the latter for foreigners, but your snide remark is defeated by essentially every fact available.
@@polyMATHY_Luke The snide remark is meant to support the interpretation of Demosthenes as purely political.
He didn't want Macedonians to be seen as proper Greeks.
If their language had not been essentially Greek, it wouldn't have been classified as such by others. It must have been closer to Greek than Italian is to French.
It’s like saying the Spartans spoke Spartan????they were Greek kingdoms .. They were all Greeks and United by Alexander… Barbarics is only written in the writing in the liberal writings of that time and you disregard all the other time he was called a Greek from ancient scripts.. you pick and chose 👎
4:45 Aeschines called Demosthenes a "barbarian" while expressly excluding any "non-Greek language" meaning of this word:
"[...] Demosthenes of Paeania took to wife. She it was who bore your busy-body and informer. From his grandfather, therefore, he would inherit enmity toward the people, for you condemned his ancestors to death and by his mother's blood he would be a Scythian, a *Greek-tongued barbarian*-so that his knavery, too, is no product of our soil."
Also Demosthenes himself was not referrring to any language when talking about Philip (and not about Alexander III by the way) and he did not even expressly call him a barbarian but a "a pestilent knave from Macedonia". So he was referring to Philip's character in a hyperbole, not his language, as he also said that there was nothing Greek about Philip, which cannot be true given also that Philip was a multiple Olympic winner, where only Greeks could take place. Also his grandfather took part in the games...
One just has to read the "letter sent to Obama about Macedonia", signed by hundreds or renowned scholars, to learn about how Greek the Macedonians were and how Greek their language was, instead of watching random wishy-washy videos that may also have an agenda...
The Epirotes were thought of as barbarian because they had a monarchy. Yet they spoke Greek. Maybe southern Greeks felt a sense of superiority and couldn't accept Greeks who bowed down to a King as 'Greek'.
I seriously doubt that there are many persons on earth who can conversationally converse in Attic Greek. Reading Attic Greek & being orally conversational are quite different.
There are thousands ruclips.net/video/mRRZeKhu48M/видео.html
Creo que es como tu dices en tu ejemplo del francés comparado con el italiano y el español en su pronunciación. Probablemente el dialecto macedonio era más influenciado por los reinos y tribus del norte de los balcanes que por sus hermanos helenicos del sur. Como dijiste con el francés que es un idioma romance pero que su pronunciación fue más influenciada por las lenguas germánicas. La verdad muy interesante este video!!!
Que en Macedonia se estaban casando con las mujeres hermosas de todos los tribus de alrededor.😁 Por eso los prendían a bromas en Atenas
Balkan kingdoms were not existed
Why you are so uneducated and jealous of Hellas and say 🗑
I think of it as a similar difference to American vs Australian English. They're clearly distinct and can be easily sorted but they're hardly different languages.
Even if you imagine one day that the US went into decline and was conquered by Phillip of Australia it's still going to lead to a fundamentally anglo/liberal society deapite a few differences and technically being foreigners.
It's not comparable to being conquered by China for instance.
The athenians lost and they're still mad 2000 years later.
Amazing video established on hard facts. Especially your nuanced point about the political character of Demosthenes’s shtick with Philip and Alexander due to Athens having lost the supremacy of the Hellenic world to Macedonia. May I just suggest a further enrichment of your sources with Hesiod who talks extensively about the legendary origins of Macedonians.
According to Hesiod (as cited in Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus, On the Provinces of the Byzantine Empire [Lob Classical Library 503, p. 49])
The region of Macedonia was named from Macedon, the son of Zeus and Thyia the daughter of Deucalion, as the poet Hesiod says [...] and she [Thyia] became pregnant and bore to Zeus who delights in the thunderbolt two sons, Magnes and Macedon who delighted in the battle-chariot, those who dwelt in the mansions around Pieria and Olympus (Catalogue of Women, fr. 7).
Hesiod's description also provides the original territorial limits of the brothers' lebensraum - "the mansions around Pieria and Olympus". Both Macedon and Magnes are initially presented as grandsons of King Deucalion - son of Prometheus and father of Hellen, the eponymous ancestor of the Hellenes (Hall, 2002, p. 139) - who originally "ruled over Thessaly" (Hesiod, fr. 6).
While all the above are not of linguistic nature, but more of an ethnological one, it’s still a valid argument in favour of what you are talking about that if Macedonians are Hellenes then it is only natural that they spoke some form of Greek.
Apostle paul knew the greek language , when he visited macedonia (neapoli, filippoi, amfipoli, thessalonica, veroia, apollonia, ) he was able to communicate with them and preach the gospel, because Macedonias spoke Greek, it was the same language he also used when he visited Athens, Corinth, Cecheres, Creta , Asia Minor, etc.
That's completely irrelevant though.
(reply to your deleted comment insulting me)
The ancient Macedonian language had died out by Paul's time for one. Secondly, even if it was still spoken, Greek was the lingua franca, meaning that most people in the area spoke it, even if it wasn't their mother tongue. I'm getting the impression that you are an unpleasant person.
@@BurnBird1 the Macedonian language never died, it evolved like the other Hellenic dialects into modern Greek, there is no evidence for the existence of another language dialect besides Greek in that period, see pella tablet 375 b.c and
It's the same vocabulary that Paulus used in his letters . It means for 400 b.c until 1 century was the same language.
Pella tablet :
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pella_curse_tablet
@@Dimitris_Gr. Macedonian dialect, language, whatever. The point is that it was no longer as distinct as it had been. Hence the point about your comment being irrelevant. Let's say that the Macedonians spoke a dialect different enough to be called a language distinct from Greek, it would have been replaced by Greek regardless.
Plus, like I said before, if they spoke a completely different language unrelated to anything else on earth, they would have still known Greek as a lingua franca. Does the fact that Paul was able to speak to the Romans evidence that they didn't speak Latin, but a dialect of Greek?
I'm not arguing that it wasn't a dialect of Greek, only that your point about Paul being able to speak with people there 400 years after Alexander is irrelevant.
@@BurnBird1I can not understand why you find the point with Paulus irrelevant since the topic of the video is the language spoken by the ancient Macedonians, shouldn't we not take many facts together? For example the findings from Macedonia b.c and Macedonia a.c ?
Anyway.
Excellent presentation as always Luke.
For us of Greek heritage, there is no doubt that Alex was a Greek.
There is a modern political movement from the former yugoslav republic of Macedonia that the ancient Macedonians were not Greek and that this Slavic nation are the descendents of the Ancient Macedonia.
With due respect to our brothers and sisters there, the hard evidence does not support that hypothesis.
According to John Lane - Fox who wrote a book on Alexander, the Macedonians did speak a heavy dialect of Greek, possibly a form of Doric. Just as some ignorant views from modern Greece that Cypriot Greeks do not speak correct Greek.
The Cypriot dialect as you must know, originates from Arcadia, Greece and has a, beautiful connection to ancient form.
I don't think there is any evidence that the ancient Macedonian dialect has any connection with the language spoken today by the people of modern day Macedonia.
Θαυμζω πάρα πολύ το ταλέντο που έχεις για τόσες γλοσσες, είσαι πράγματι πολύ μάθεις....
There are many researchers and historians who disagree with you.
@@papasitoman Name one and present just a single piece of evidence that supports the idea Alexander was not Greek.Just one i am waiting
@@ugabugabagaga What are you talking about?
If I "name just one" then you would immediately dismiss it, say it doesn't count, then continue to believe you are right. A proper researcher or academic or historian would be able to steelman the other side-you immediately became obtuse.
@ugabugabagaga I also stated thar historians and experts would disagree with you because the ancient Macedonians had their own identity, though clearly also spoke a form of Greek and had some Greek influences. Have you actually studied this, or are you just someone commenting without even knowing there is much research and nuances into the subject?
Its similar to Troy and Troyans speaking their dialect and during war not even considering themselves to be Greek. Like you have some ukrainians that do not consider themselves to be Russian.
Oh and of course the further you go north from Pella the less similar the dialect would have been to ancient Greek.
Alexander bringing his translator in retinue doesn't mean he didn't understand anything or didn't speak, but that he wanted accurate and precise formal wording without confusion or double meanings for diplomacy sake.
mythologically, the Trojans were relatives of the rest of the Greeks and their royal families married among them. The Trojan War is essentially a civil war, the only difference was the different nations from the interior who were allies of the Trojans.
Alexander brought translators for the nations beyond the Greek territory, but not when he was speaking to the rest of the Greeks, such as in the Corinthian conference, in his army when before a great battle, when he was speaking with the Thebans, in the Delphic amphictyonia and .and..
we have many dialogues of Alexander with philosophers, priests, artists .......
ALEXANDER with his ARMY FALANGA were in PERSIJA, INDIA and EGYPT ! !
Soooooooooo.... Ancient Macedonian was Greek and modern Macedonian is Slavic? Got it.
Right
Southern Slavic dialect to be precise, related to Bulgarian.
There is no "modern" Macedonian.Macedonian is a Greek dialect since forever , the Vardar Slavs of Bulgarian origin , speak Bulgarian with some Serbian influence.
@@ugabugabagaga VARDAR e vo MAKEDONIJA .
ti... u Dunav.
Ancient Macedonians were speaking Greek, particularly what is classified by scholars as a dialect of Northwest Doric Greek (Friedrich Wilhelm Sturz , Olivier Masson, Michael Meier-Brügger).
Doric was spoken in a vast area, including northern Greece (Acarnania, Aetolia, Epirus, Macedonia), most of the Peloponnese (Achaea, Elis, Messenia, Laconia - Sparta, Argolid, Aegina, Corinth, and Megara), the southern Aegean (Kythira, Milos, Thera, Crete, Karpathos, and Rhodes), as well as the colonies of some of those regions in Cyrene, Magna Graecia, the Black Sea, the Ionian Sea and the Adriatic Sea.
It was also spoken in the Greek sanctuaries of Dodona, Delphi, and Olympia, as well as at the four Panhellenic festivals; the Isthmian, Nemean, Pythian, and the Olympic Games (Roger D. Woodard (2008), "Greek dialects", The Ancient Languages of Europe, Cambridge University Press).
However, the prestige language of the region during the Classical era was Attic Greek (Athens), replaced by Koine Greek during the Hellenistic era (Joseph, Brian D. (2001). "Ancient Greek").
As a native Greek, I have to say that ancient Macedonians were undoubtedly Greek. They could communicate with the other greeks because they were able to understand each others dialect. They believed in the same gods. They had the same celebrations, rituals etc. They fought together against common external enemies. They had foundamental things in common.
While I agree that the ancient Macedonians were speakers of a dialect like those of Classical Greece, and their culture was also akin to contemporary Greeks, what does your being a native Greek have to do with it?
@@polyMATHY_Luke as a native Greek I understand the language very well and also I have studied ancient Greek language and history at school direct from the ancient texts, not some distorted and inaccurate translation. I have and had access to more accurate information than others.
@@polyMATHY_Luke present day greeks think they are literally the same and discendants from the Ancient hellens lol
@@d3r4g45 of course we are not the same, as nobody is with their ancestors. But we are definatelly biological descendants. As of their culture and heritage, this is spread worlwide to everyone.
@@djnina7 Everyone from the southern Balkans (this includes Greece, Albania, N.Macedonia, and Bulgaria) is their biological descendant. 💀
Only channel that i can watch on yt..
Thank you for your videos.
Very kind
Being Greek and having studied ancient Greek since my younger days in high school, I can asure you for ONE thing. Ancient Greek is one of THE MOST difficult languages to master, even for us who modern Greek is our native language. On the other hand is THE MOTHER of all languages spoken in Europe, Americas, Australia. Even in a part of India they do speak Greek, because they are descendants of soldiers left there since Alexander's time.
not to diminish the glory of the ancient greek language, but the romance languages that the European nations speak nowadays do not share a greek origin but a latin one. The only resemblance is the greek alphabet that the Romans borrowed from the Greeks, apart from many greek word loans of course that is.
@@Basil-HD You are totaly wrong. Below is a link of speach given in English uning ONLY greek words by Xenofon Zolotas, back in 1959 during the anual meeting of the IMF and the International Bank
ruclips.net/video/2XAcuxFqk9k/видео.html
I come from Aetolia, Greece and it is well known that, since the ancient times, the rest of our Hellenes (greek) brothers, found it difficult to understand us and our neighbours, Acarnanians, because we used to cut-out vowels in between consonants and so our definitely hellenic (greek) dialect, sounded strange or even uncomprehendable to them. It almost still goes the same today. Our locally spoken idiom of modern greek is often difficult to be understood by other greeks and even sounds funny to them. The same happens in Larissa, Thessaly. Are we not Greeks? For goodness, of course we are!! 1000%! Well, that's also the story of Macedonia and the rest is both ancient and modern politics! The state (falsely) called Northern Macedonia has no greek inhabitants anymore and they speak no greek at all, they speak a slavic language instead. Therefore, they are not Macedonians in inheritance and origin. They are a different people, that happen to have taken and inhabit a small part of the ancient Macedonian territorries. Macedonia has always been greek. We, as greeks, would rather be proud of other people wanting to be named after our ancient names, they would just have not to be covetous usurpers of our history and our lands, as well as international liars about the historical origin of their own language and themselves.
The story about the origin of the modern macedonian peoples was invented and propagated by the Greek government.
It's funny how you all pretend not to know this.
@@zesky6654 The history of the Macedonians (one of the ancient hellenic people) is well documented and not invented by anyone. It's strange how much the self-called "modern macedonian people" chose to ignore it. Sometimes illusions are so massive and go so deeply underconsiously, that you have to try make any rational uninterested observer accept your false beliefs or else they'll have to tolerate your constant silly drama about it.
@@zesky6654 all i hear is a slav coping that the Macedonians were greeks 😂
you have nothing to do with the ancient hellens from 2500 years ago.
@@d3r4g45
Yeas, they were turkalbanians
Cypriot here. Nowadays the so called neocypriots claim that our dialect is actually a language. The fact that we practically speak the same way as the Dodecanesians and , mainly, that no Greek needs translation in Cyprus or the other way around is irrelevant to them. POLITICS...
So, long story short, we have evidence that 🇬🇷Macedonian🇬🇷 was a Greek dialect, and we have a politically motivated debate about not being one. Pretty much like today! Case closed!
MACEDONIANS -- MACEDONIAN LANGUAGE ! ! you... dialect.
Hi, yes...from the evidences you presented here, ancient Macedonian was definitely part of the Greek dialects. As far I can understand, Macedon being always in the fringes of the Greek homeland and being neighbors with also foreign people's (like Peonia, Thrace, Illyrian) have been a bit away from the developments of the southern Greeks, kept old traditions and institutions that southern Greeks have long before get rid off and when Phillip II proclaimed himself Hegemon of all Greece, traditional powers like Athens didn't lose any time to used all these facts against Macedon for propaganda. Nothing knew of course, unfortunately we have seen this quite often in history. Thank you for the video!
Thanks, Luke, for another excellent video.
Its not weird to exist different dialects from the same language and are not fully understandable to each other.
Even today there are dialects between the languages.
For example there is the Cypriot Greek which is difficult to fully understand someone from mainland Greece.
Similarly its difficult to understand the English of Scotland.
So why to be weird in the antiquity for the southern Greeks to have difficulty to fully understand the Greeks of Macedonia?
Obviously he spoke Albanian which is a language existing before the big bang.
I hope that a video on the Doric Dialects of Ancient Greek (hopefully with many examples of the Spartan dialect Lakonian) may be soon on the horizon, however I do not want to make this sound as a reinforcing "do this video now!!" - type of comment, best regards to all!!
In the Bible,Daniel prophecies, one of the beasts,the goat,considered as the king of the Greeks.
The Bald Guy with the Ginger Moustache FAILED to rule out that Macedonians NEVER SPOKE BULGARIAN
.................... you @ mickey ........... speak tra la la.
It’s definitely not a Slavic language, be it Greek or not
Μακεδονία Ελλάδα ❤❤
But Macedonia was never Greek.
@@bobancholich7693in your dreams …you are Slav and you have nothing to do with us …
@@bobancholich7693 Never slavobulgarian either.
🪙 νή τω Κύνα. Απ' τ' Άργος. Chaos ArgeAD. Ακόμα και με τα ακρωτηριασμένα Νέα Ελληνικά, still we can Read it Λουκά. Για ρώτα τους Σλάβους aka(Fyrom), if they can read it lol.
There is not exist Macedonian nationality with Macedonian language!!!