Halberd & Shield in Lord of the Rings - Maybe I Was WRONG?
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- Опубликовано: 3 фев 2020
- I thought Easterlings with halberds and shields in Lord of the Rings was ridiculous.... but maybe I was wrong!
Matt's Pinterest: www.pinterest.co.uk/matt_easton/
Image: www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/43044... 
Развлечения
Didn't realise so many of my viewers would be as into hose as me.
hoes*?
@@AnoNYmous-bz2ef nah like hose like the german word for trousers dawg
I would argue that you are wrong about being wrong. The halberds the Easterlings are holding are clearly too large to be wielded in one hand. The weapon in the medieval illustration is short enough I think it would be feasible to thrust with one handed.
Hose is fashionable again. They call it "skinny jean" but it's really just modern hose...
Got no love for hose.
It's ok Schola, I research "hose" too, mostly at night.
I once found a black hose with big bottoms, such a joy to watch
In german language ,,Hose' means , trousers'.
@@brittakriep2938 that's the joke
But he is looking for group "hose" which may seem less accepted.
...mostly
The real oddity here is someone on the Internet admitting they might have been wrong.
wrong about them hoes?
Must be an exception to a rule. 😄
...about anything.
Not just him, but Shadiversity too.
I hope his wife is aware of this extensive hose research
Who knows, maybe he wants to buy one for her, too?
@@couchpotatoe91: Wouldn't that be crossdressing?
Good blackmail material.
I read my dad's internet history and he's very into hose. Not the historical kind.
I'm sure his wife is an enthusiastic hands-on assistant in Matt's tireless search of hose. Perhaps Matt even gets regular recommendations and appraisals of promising ones from her.
This channel has always been about thrusts and penetration, so why not about hose?
@Jon Goat Different hose for different brose.
Don't forget the butt.
I am pretty sure this channel is actually primarily about context. It's only secondarily about knowing when to penetrate hose with powerful thrusts.
And let’s not forget about our shafts or our helmets!
Long shafts too.
Got britches and hose in every area code
DepOpt1988 exactly
I greave at puns like these.
Clint Page I’m sure you’ll come to vambrace them
top comment
"Sometimes an exception proves the rule."
*_Shows picture of a giant rabbit decapitating somebody with a sword._* I'm dead.
I burst out laughing at this comment, hahaha. Fuckin rabbits! They'll get ya everytime!
“Well, that's no ordinary rabbit. That's the most foul, cruel, and bad-tempered rodent you ever set eyes on! ...that rabbit's got a vicious streak a mile wide! It's a killer!”
Lemme guess, the rabbit's got you.
Ariel Valenzuela medieval pictures giving general knowledge about certain aspects
A giant rabbit with what could easily be mistaken for a strap on no less.
As the old medieval saying goes:
"It is better to have a shield and ditch it later,
than to not have it and become a hedgehog earlier."
More or less my thought. Use the shield to get up to the battle line, then drop it so you can put your halberd to work.
Toss a coin to your Witcher?
I'm not sure, that could get very messy very quickly if your whole unit decides to do that, specially with such big shields. Imagine trying to keep ranks while dodging the pavises the three blokes in front of you just ditched.
@@leonardomarquesbellini depend on how you are using it. Let say you are setting up a square to handle a calvery charge then you set your shield on the ground in front maybe in conjunction with another pience of equipment to turn them the same way big shield like it was done in japan and then you have you front line hide behind the shield stock of the halberg on the ground for support and pointed directly in front. ready to drop the shield once the calvery crash through the formation. (am guessing not sure if it can work)
The way he tries to fight back a smile when he says hose has me rolling in laughter
with* laughter, I'm a bit hazy so my sincerest apologies
To be honest, not getting shot by arrows or crossbow bolts is by far better than taking the chance that the missile might not hit you anyway, even if you are wearing armour.
Lady luck is a cruel mistress after all.
"I was an adeventurer like you but then a taken an arrow to the knee."
@@alexandrub8786 well... better a bodkin to an armored knee than an ArrowIV cruise missile to the knee actuator of your battlemech ;)
Or you could have a pavise shield strapped to your back.
Or wear four shields like skallagrim.... *Skallagladiatoria*
Two handed polearms such as halberds and pikes may be used with shields in certain situations:
1) The more common situation is when shields are strapped to the person's arm that leaves both hands free to grip the polearm. Examples of strap on shields include the phalangite pikemen of the ancient Macedonian army and for the armies of ancient China.
Archaeological example of strapped shields of the Han Dynasty: 4.bp.blogspot.com/-a1eaZPyyQIk/WwaBm7J6A9I/AAAAAAAAEqg/O2oUrmEwMz0H2A-IoQyglwdRmVO6UxkSwCLcBGAs/s400/wKgB6lQdoViAW-ecACzyg17BGmg13.jpeg
1.bp.blogspot.com/-amZ4UqzY3ps/WwjRJKA_6hI/AAAAAAAAEsE/b39GR4roIq0ZzKXXPqWvGCO79rYbbSMKQCLcBGAs/s400/20120904044232797.jpg
Modern artistic portrayal of Macedonian shields: qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-aee69ea7e5bd320c61effd9d19c35782.webp
2) A rarer situation is when certain types of shields that are designed with resting areas for polearms. This can be seen in ancient Chinese double arced shields with "notches" on the side dating to the Warring States to Han Dynasty era, and in medieval European shields that have a polearm rest for lances.
Archaeological examples of Han Dynasty shields with polearm rests:
1.bp.blogspot.com/-5Tb0am4XkMU/XUOd74ATOPI/AAAAAAAAFUs/qt8p5lnHCT8AvGa1EDpwTaDbjm2hdy3kgCLcBGAs/s400/han_terracotta_big_shield.jpg
2.bp.blogspot.com/-1whOMakZ7bw/Wuk2SGRPunI/AAAAAAAAEng/YH-e88fh6cs0Mxdwe5-H4ROPOLIawaQswCLcBGAs/s400/0.jpg
Medieval illustration and modern recreation of high/late middle ages shields with rests for lances: myarmoury.com/images/pb/78fea1f6c72f5495b9d238c3578c1c36.jpg
encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQtX0oGLyFfZlxe_TSlI8IH9i4ScAsC4o6plaJjpiiHSiG84b6s&s
And some types of shields could be used to form a shield wall or used like a pavise and some types of halberds might simply be small & light enough to use with one hand.:
2.bp.blogspot.com/-jMwlbRUoUmo/W0XS0j9DbpI/AAAAAAAAEys/pBMGBoVByJQmQ6G5q6ky4UOCkyajh_1JgCLcBGAs/s640/Ming_Dynasty_Shields.jpg
2.bp.blogspot.com/-mcU5Vm6CVFE/W0SQLUFPV3I/AAAAAAAAEyM/NsAwYZfEJKsB1ej25AmCE3u6C07o4nP9wCLcBGAs/s400/yan_wei_pai.jpg
_"I went on the internet to look for hose"_ - Matt Easton
I'm gonna need some CONTEXT on that one, mate!
I think Mrs Easton might want some context also.
That needs to be on a T Shirt or something lol
A Tee shirt with " Matt Loves Hoes"
He was "stocking" his armoury.
The Osprey Men at Arms #136 "Italian Armies 1300-1500" has two illustrations that show infantry with large shields and two handed weapons, one with a glaive and the other a long shafted war hammer/poleaxe . It lists the period sources the osprey artist used for his reconstruction: "Battle of Clavijo" Fresco, Oratorio de s. Giorgio, Padua 1370; a "Gallic Wars' Italian Manuscript C. 1390, trivulzian library; "life of St Ursula" painting by Carpaccio. "Life of Ursula can be seen at commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Valued_image_set:_The_Life_of_St._Ursula_cycle_by_Vittore_Carpaccio . It clearly shows the combination of the polearm and shield. The Clavijo Fresco though actually shows only spearmen with shields, the man with the glaive does not actually have one commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Altichiero,_scene_della_vita_di_san_giacomo,_basilica_del_santo,_cappella_di_san_felice,_padova,_1376_circa.jpg . Could not find the manuscript online.
Brilliant! I was just about to post something on Carpaccio's St. Ursula's voyage.
I think that the combination of polearms (although with shorter shafts than usual), and large shields is typical of the fifteenth century Nothern Italy - more specifically is very much present in Venetian and Milanese held territories. The fact that the first picture is from Carpaccio, a Venetian, the second source come from Padua (a city under the Serenissima) while the third source -the manuscript - comes from Milan, sort of confirms that.
In Italy the early fiftheenth century was a time of change and experimentation in warfare as the Italian infantries progressively moved from the classic communal militia (often armed with Pavese shields and polearms) to more mobile and "assault-like" formations of footmen (similar and coeval to the spanish rodeleiros).
The presence of "Targoni" shields (the rectangular) and "Rotelle" or "Rotule" shields (the oval) is just the archeological evidence of such change in warfare style. The old Paveses were far too large and cumbersome to be of any use for the new "shock" infantry but, evidently, the tradition (and the wish of not being hit!) of having a shield was still very much radicated in the italian warfare.
What about a weapon of office? The man could wield a smaller halberd to better identify him as an officer and to help in the organization. If you notice, in the picture the man is also following (keeping the ranks in order?) some soldiers significantly less armed and armored, suggesting a difference in the status of the soldiers. A smaller halberd would be better than a normal size one to keep order in a tight formation.
Supposing this could be true, the shield makes more sense too, as a parade piece for a richer soldier or an added protection for less expendable one. An officer, a sergeant, can use the advantages of keeping a shield without having to care about the impracticality of it in combat along with the halberd, since his main role is to organize and keep in check the troops rather than to be in direct combat.
Now, before you tell me this theory is far fetched, remember that three polearms survived the age of black powder in the european armies until 18th century: the partisan, the spontoon (which ended to be almost identical in shape to the partisan) and the halberd. These weapons were used in a small and lightweight form for practicality. These weapons were also used to arm officers and non-commissioned-officers. Actually, in italian the little halberd is called "sergentina" because was the ordinance weapon used specifically by sergeants (NCOs), while officers used partisans (partigiana/e) and spontoons (spuntone/i).
Wouldn't surprise me at all if the origin of the polearms used as symbols of office were during the low middle ages - or maybe even before: the Eastern Romans could have somewhat kept some traditions of the roman insignia - and the use simply continued to the 18th century.
@@albertorepetto2909 That's absolutley true, 17th and 18th century office weapons were in fact polearms bequeathed from this age, but I would rather look at the swiss tradition as the origin of such weapons. As you mention, the sergents had those primarily to keep the ranks tight and orderly.
In this period, as I was saying, the Italian infantry was abandoning this warfare approach reliant on packed formations.
Generally, two reasons are given for such switch in battlefield role: 1) organised formations required high discipline, training and a certain "esprit de corps" -such as was less and less present in the Italian footmen; 2) with the coeval technical advancement in costly armor the cavalry became the queen of battles in the italian peninsula, the melee infantry role became one of support. The footmen were supposed mainly to attack ranged units, artillery positions and storm the field fortifications that were so common in the Italian praxis of the period. In all those cases mobility and independent cohordination, rather than orderly tight ranks, were key.
Awesome
In the early Spanish Tercios, the pikemen carried a shield to protect themselves from arrows and bolts. They droped the shield when the combat start
I can also imagine they deploying a large shield when in a sort of parade through cities; just to show the units insignia or the lord's colours. Doesn't necessarily mean they were used in conjunction with the halberd during battle deployment.
"It's ceremonial"
What if he used it as a pavise
@@BelisariusAlKhwarizmi I agree 100%. Going onto a battlefield without cover sounds dangerous. Maybe a formation of halberdiers could move with pavises, and then pass them back to fight with the halberd two handed? Who knows..
I need "I was researching hose on the internet." on a t-shirt, STAT.
@Cipher " Looking for hoses to fit my armour", sounds edgy but still.
Browse before hose.
Mmm yes we all look for hose. It's why the internet exists right? 😂
Need fork handles.
Theory: Like an archer, walk somewhere, stick the pavis in the ground to protect your legs and give you something to duck behind, then start waving the halbert around in front of you so as to declare "I am now a nano-fort, come at me bro!"
OK, Everybody go home, Larry has won the internet for today. Let's all try again tomorrow
Oh noes! The rabbit with a sword! Bring the Holy Hand Grenade!
He's going to do a series on the best sword to use against giant marginalia snails, isnt he?
Run away!!
Armaments, chapter two, verses nine to twenty-one
:
And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, "O Lord, bless this Thy hand grenade that, with it, Thou mayest blow Thine enemies to tiny bits in Thy mercy."
And the Lord did grin, and the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths and carp and anchovies and orangutans and breakfast cereals and fruit bats and [gonna skip a bit here]
And the Lord spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then, shalt thou count to three. No more. No less. Three shalt be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, nor either count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then, lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in My sight, shall snuff it."
It’s always respectable when someone finds they are wrong, and admits their mistakes, rather than double down.
"My halberd shall tear right through all these hose."
~Rodrigo the Overcompensator
We need an entire scholagladiotoria compilation of everything he’s said on his channel but out of context
I see what you mean. I thought rabbits were opposed to edged weapons, like clerics, but I guess not always. The more you know.
Rabbits have edged weapons, every one is equipped with heeeug gnashing teeth
Have you seen how they hew vegetation into pieces? A horrifying display for the oxygen pooping kind!
Still can’t quite get over the fact that the idea of clerics not using swords is a D&D creation.
Islacrusez seems extraordinarily arbitrary, doesn’t it?
gordon thomas it’s amazing what is done for the sake of variety in game design.
A chance to learn:
"The exception proves the rule" is misunderstood by almost everyone. "proves" here isn't the modern "shows to be true", but the older meaning "tests" (think "waterproof" = "tested for use under water"). An exception is a challenge to a rule, allowing you to judge whether the rule is any good, not a proof of the rule itself. Obviously.
I agree that "the exception proves the rule" does not mean, "every rule has an exception", or, even more weirdly, "the counter-example proves that the rule is true." I think it's a legal argument, first used by Cicero. For example, if you see a sign saying "Children under 10 must wear life jackets", that implies "Life jackets are not required EXCEPT for children under 10." The exception is evidence of a general, perhaps unspoken, rule.
I could picture warriors carrying a pavise with a halberd so that when combat started they could set them down to form a wall for cover, striking out with the halberd from behind it holding the back of the haft high with the head angled down.
I think it could possibly work depending on the situation, if the warriors were defending a spot and were going to be remaining stationary instead of advancing or moving around. Of course I've never personally wielded a halberd, so this idea needs some review from someone who has.
And it's actually a nice idea for my next D&D game, as my current character is a halberdier and glaive specialist.
I think this is a reasonable hypothesis.
I don't think that's very likely since the shield would limit your chopping capability so you'd probably still choose a spear then.
Interesting but there is some things to consider.
Pavise works great when exchanging missiles, as they can not really knock a slab of wood down. But in melee it would not take much effort to pull or push the pavises down.
We see this in depictions of Bohemian spear formations. Also in conjunction with muskets.
The ability to have some kind of mobility is really useful for fighting even if you're just holding a line and I'm inclined to believe it's more for added protection on the way to the fight.
That said, if instead of seeing it as a personal shield to be glued to you had a couple ranks set them up as a solid wall, as long as it wasn't too tall, I could see fighting from behind that to be effective as long as you keep the enemy from getting closer to the wall than you (though if they were inclined to stop and fight from your wall after pushing you back instead of following through on an advance, that's not entirely without an upside.
I know I've seen the halberd with shield combo. before, and my first thought is that it it would be good for bodyguard units where the shield would be used as much for identification as defense. While a smaller shield could be more of a hindrance than a help in combat - larger Pavise type shields could be carried into position, set up and then the halberdiers could effectively create a stationary shield wall to hold that position.
Cheers Matt, I can imagine having your helbardiers carrying large shields being beneficial if you are facing an opponent who has an advantage in ranged weapons and mobility.
If my army had to face an enemy using lots of reiters or mounted crossbowmen, and I had not enough (or none at all) cavalry to drive them off, I would want to protect my heavy infantry as long as possible before the actual engagement happened.
Similarily if I had to advance over an open field at a fortified line with crossbowmen or arquebusiers, I would want to see my heavy infantry shielded until they bridge the gap.
Wish you all the best in your internet hose research, I need to take care of that myself as well now.
Heyo! Just a suggestion; there is a larp called Bicolline in Canada, Quebec. It hosts a large scale battle (around 2000 participate.) The reason I bring it up, is that while it is foam weapons (Not metal!) a typical thing you see is a "strapped" large shield with a halberd.
Not needing to hold the shield with a hand because it is strapped to the arm and neck, giving the user the ability to swing the halberd with both hands. (The shield is a static/passive defence)
It also comes REALLY handy when you face a line of people wielding large shields and swords. The Halberd has a longer reach and is capable to strike from top to bottom (Vertical strike) and it allows to hit heads quite well.
Again, this is a medieval fantasy setting with foam weapons. But maybe it could lead to something!
So not only do we see a medieval armoured halberdier using a shield, like in LOTR, but it's a massive frikkin tower shield at that, twice the size of the one in LOTR! That's pretty funny actually xD
The shield is probably just for riding on elephant trunks Matt.
Correction, woolly mammoth trunks
Elephant? There are no elephant in Endor! There are some Mûmakil, also known as Oliphaunts, if that is what you mean... :P
@@jakubp.6987 Endor?
@@VikingBadass94 Yop! Eastlerlings (those wariors with pikes and shields) are from Rhûn. Rhûn is a large region in the far eastern part part of Middle-earth, or Endor (in Quenya), or Ennor (in Sindarin), or the Great Lands (in The book of lost tales) is continent on planet of Arda. :)
@@jakubp.6987 Oh, wow, never knew that. I mean, I've spent hours on Tolkien Gateway(great website on Middle Earth history, including the Silmarillion in my opinion,) but never thought to look that up. Or maybe I have, and I just forgot. XD
I guess Lucas wasn't the first to use Endor as a name.
The halberdiers could be carrying around a pavese for setting up a defensive, static formation to shield themselves while they prod at the enemy with the pole weapons. Maybe even while defending an archery formation behind them.
Yep, in static defense formations big shields and couched polearms would be very effective at keeping four-leggers away from your archers.
Ah, schiltrom
Its the opposite of that actually. They use the shields to march towards the enemies formations and protect from arrow fire. They drop the shields once they reach the Melee.
@@Lowlightt why not both?
Is there a source you relied upon to state it was definitely the one and not the other?
(always looking to learn more :) )
Matt is such a cheery and merry person, always giving me positive vibes. I love coming here!
Honesty, This scene involving the Easter-lings could easily be dismissed as them being in a non-combative march. Such as a ceremonial parade for their grand entrance. A piece of evidence to support this: the 2 easterlings that investigate Sam/Frodo are seen not carrying shields.
It's also possible that these Easterling warriors are trained in both Halberd and Sword/Shield
There are so called "Setzpavesen", paveses with spikes underneath, with wich you can build quick defensive structures. To defend you may well use both hands on your halberd.
that was my thought, with the prop they are remarkably hard to knock over. Get a unit going and it's a literal 'shield wall'. The Hussites also used them to block the gaps between wagons, you'd think that they'd carry them in the wagons but since they used the wagon burg aggressively they could carry them so as to block the gaps quicker.
"i was on the internet looking for hose"
matt easton 2020
I too was researching hose on the internet and wound up here..and now I'm a weapons expert. Turned my entire life around. Thank you.
Matt: "I've been researching hoes more often lately, to try and match my armor"
Me: Automatically gets a mental image of a pair of strippers twerking on Matt's lap while he is fully kitted out🤣👍
Epic image
no his family arms is hoes rampant on a field verdant
I quite often find my research in the same topic leads me to places called red light districts but alas the people there are usually wearing very little....I'm stumped! 🤷🏻♂️
Hey I was actually notified when the video went up! As opposed to hours later.
Hey Matt, love your videos, as well as your general knowledge related to the theoretical and practical aspects of swords. Just want to ask some questions which I, would love to see turned into individual videos.
1. What do you think of the clipped point of many messers, and falchions in comparison to the spear point of other messer, falchions, and sabers, and even the hatchet point of similar swords? What do you think are the advantages and disadvantages of a clipped point vs spear point?
2. Could you do a more in depth video of sword cross sectional geometries? What are the specific advantages of a diamond, hollow ground and triangular cross section, etc? How does a fuller affect the geometry and efficiency and what’s the geometry of Napoleonic, and Victorian era military sabers.
3. Also, when will you do a swiss saber video?
This is more of a simple question, do we see British and European sabers with a blade similar to the Osborn and Gunby adaptation of the 1796 light cavalry saber, especially on a gothic hilt?
Hope you have a nice day, bud.
4. Could you do a video on sabers from Germany, Italy, Russia and other countries.
5. Btw is the 1845 pattern heavy cavalry sword light and well balanced enough to be a good weapon on foot?
Also, forgot to mention, isn't the halberd u showed relatively small, and, therefore less unwieldy when used with one hand compared to normal halberds, and, in this case the halberds in LoR?
Thanks for the video Matt! I have great respect for you, not least of which because you don't shy from admitting when something challenges a conclusion you have previously drawn and wondering about it.
And of course, because you've taught me the ABCs of Matt Easton: Always Beseech Context.
P.S. the video game was probably Dark Souls; you can wield a halberd with a shield but until you get really strong you're bad at it
*dude, can you hold my shield, i need to use the privvy* ... mystery solved
From the amount of times Matt says hose in this video I can only come to one of 2 conclusions:
1: He is developing a very specific fetish, or
2: he is trying to deliberately mess with youtube's voice recognition software and algorithms, to see how far he can push it.
You managed to describe how halberds & shields work in Warhammer fantasy at the end as well! Shields were used to protect against ranged weapons, and in close combat you could chose to let them draw their swords and use the shield, or use the halberds, but you could not combine the effects of the halberd and shield in close combat. (Speaking of the image of those old Empire halberdiers early in the video).
The halberd with a shield isn't bad in itself. For example, in the early Han dynasty the Ji was a common battlefield weapon. It was essentially a halberd (it can cut, and thrust), and was predominantly used with two hands on its own. But there are instances where the soldiers were armed with a Ji, and a shield.
"Everywhere I look, all I see are britches and hose."
"Well sir, this IS a tailor's."
Y'know, holding a shield might impede using it like a spear, but I'd imagine that you'd be able to get a simple vertical chop going pretty easily. A wall of pavise shields and falling halberd heads seems like it might be a moderately effective tactic against enemies in armour. Might also be decent against horses - the shield will stop you from getting trampled (one way or another) and you could hook into the horse's side.
Yeah, I also spend a lot of time researching hose. That's basically the main thing I do on the internet...
I would argue that the poleaxe in the picture seems rather short, only as tall as the man, therefore maybe can be thrust like a spear, or perhaps couched as a lance would be, using the leverage to chop down. I dont really know if that would be practical, per se, especially with a large shield, but it seems possible. Love the channel, Matt! Keep it up.
I think your hypotheses are spot on, Matt. It would make sense, to me at least, to have your troops, likely highly skilled mercenaries, to be as versatile as possible, and bringing a halberd for formation fighting, and a shield for skirmishing makes tons of sense to me as a battlefield commander.
Additionally, if I might bring some modern insight as a modern soldier in the American Army, I often find myself bringing loads more situational gear than what one might think he needs for a battle or training scenario. EG: I have to bring all the kit for dismounted rifle fighting EVEN THOUGH I gun on a Stryker MGS (big cannon) and wear combat vehicle armor that’s much much slimmer but less protective. (Worse still is they only issue me a pistol lol)
Cheers Matt! Love your videos!
Genovese crossbowmen: Hey you halberdsman ! Carry my pavise! Remember I am being generous for not asking for your rations after you lost the game of dice yesterday night.
Halberdsman: Tomorrow I'll make YOU carry my stuff!
Actually, I think the front rank of halberdiers may well have carried the pavises into place during the start of a battle for the crossbowmen to hide behind while they reload & fire just in front of the halberd (or pike) lines. That way the crossbowmen don't have to weave forward through the lines of halberdiers & pikemen carrying both their crossbow w. windlass and bolts as well as the pavise. This could also help obscure the motion of the crossbowmen setting up and allow a volley or two at incoming cavalry or even infantry before the crossbowmen retreat and allow the melee to occur
1:38 Dark Souls: Dragon Rider
Also the Giants in Anor Londo, Dark Souls 1.
Watching you trying to maintain composure at every uttering of the word "hose" is great entertainment.
Matt Easton: Fantastic Hose and where to find them.
Sometimes you find an exception: Sometimes sword wielding rabbits behead men.
Context is the first word comes to my mind after I see the thumbnail.
Were you also looking for "four candles" along with that hose?
Having them for the march is actually pretty likely now that you mention it. The Easterlings had to march through Gondor's territory to reach the Black Gate where we see them in the film, and we know Faramir and his rangers were ambushing armies moving North.
Hey Matt, unless you've found similar info already, there is a type of two piece hose known as 'bag hose'. They're made using whole cloth cut on the bias. My lady friend Kate has a pattern and instruction booklet available. She used to weave and make bag hose for 18th century reenactment groups portraying Scottish Highland regiments. She no longer weaves, but still has the booklets available.
I've got plenty of ideas besides what Matt mentioned, assuming the artist wasn't just making stuff up as stated.
It seems to be aesthetically pleasing to a certain type of artist or it wouldn't keep happening with little to no historical precedent, so there's that consideration.
He could have been carrying the pavise for his friend Dave.
He might have had the shield repaired at a local craftsman for a friend or someone of higher rank when the artist looked out their window. He could be a recruit or in a logistical position and they might all be running around with equipment they don't actually use. Doesn't look like a picture of a battlefield.
They might advance with the pavise and deploy them, which gives cover to more lightly armoured units. Those units may also be carrying unwieldy equipment like an Arbalest for a siege, and carrying it with the pavise is harder than just getting the infantry to carry it.
He might be watching over siege equipment, meaning he can deploy his pavise to protect engineers and then stand guard with his halberd.
He might be a shieldbearer and the use of his halberd is a desperate last-ditched effort or a tool for addressing cavalry rather than his primary weapon.
He might be deployed with the kit of "Police" rather than "Soldier". The pavise is to fortify a position against stones and slings in the event of a riot or to be used in conjunction with the sidearm in a "roman shield wall".
There's plenty of reasons this could have occurred. There certainly isn't much evidence of halberd and large shield being commonplace and unless a remarkable amount of evidence crops up, I don't believe this is anything but an isolated incident.
Those weren't the "hose" you were looking for. You were looking for farming implements.
Right, you water your crops with a hose, but you wear a pair of hosen.
Nothing is more refreshing and honorable than a correction of opinion or facts. Honesty, even for the sake of knowledge, can be so rare. Thank you for your pursuit of truth Matt.
Great historical and martial information, as always. Nobody is perfect, that's what peer-review and Skepticism are for. I think your ideas about how a halberd would be used with the shield were pretty much spot on. The only other half-baked hypothesis I can imagine is that they made a Testudo, but a few guys kept both hands on the weapon to poke outside the shield wall
I've heard of "the orb" as a Chinese and Ancient Greek formation. I have no idea how realistic or historical it is, but most of what I think I remember leans towards it not being total BS. If I can think of and find a good depiction as an example, probably from Troy or Red Cliff or Samurai Jack, I'll link it. The idea is they basically make a sphere of shields with spears protruding and carry on at the enemy with relative impunity. Like with the Roman Testudo it's great, but they can't fight outside of their shield wall any more. With polearms, maybe they can? That's the best way I can think of to use the 2 weapons, that you haven't mentioned, that's realisticish
I'll never apologise for my halberd and shield equipped Chaos warriors!
Yeah well chaos warriors are explicitly superhuman anyway, I can believe a strongman have the strength necessary to use a long axe one armed, or point control of s heavy axehead to thrust cleanlt
"I was on the internet looking for hoes."
Good times.
I remember hearing about a strategy of having a line of guys with long sticks with pointy ends planted on the ground as a defense from cavalry. Maybe if you're just holding the halberd braced on the ground to keep horses away, you don't need two hands to hold it and can use the shield to defend against the riders? Keeping a shield to defend against people throwing or shooting stuff at you before you get close enough to poke and hack at them seems like a good idea, too.
The god of context and innuendos has delivered!
Alternate title: Brit looking for hoses defeated by french flatulence.
Here's a rather tenuous possible interpretation of the image you showed: from the small slice visible in the video, the painting seems likeit might be a wooden panel painting of the mid XVth century, which might indicate that it is Italian in origin (afaik not many such panels survive in, for example, the UK). Is the panel perhaps depicting a historical scene, and the soldier in question intended to be a roman? If so, it's not completely out of the realms of possibility that the pavise is intended to resemble the legionary scutum! Almost certainly not, but the idea amused me!
It's not impossible. Often painters would depict historic scenes with arms and armour that existed only during the period they were alive in. Like you said, Romans depicted using Medieval/Renaissance equipment.
@@RJALEXANDER777 archive.org/details/storyofalexander00steeiala/page/n9/mode/2up
Story of Alexander, 1894 - ancient Greece illustrated entirely through late medieval style imagery, admittedly rather recent example, but that might prove the point even further.
I wouldn't be so sure about it. The italians utilized large shields like that very heavily, the big oval shields are called tabullacio by the way. But, yes they were probably influenced by depictions of roman legionnares.
Thanks for being honest enough to say that we don't necessarily know. You addressed well real reasons for why they might carry what they could not use together.
3:30 and 6:17: I notice the 'halberd' in the art is very short, much more like the axe of a housecarl as you mention. I think they were most likely used with a shield as you mention at 6:45, to discard the shields once they've 'marched passed' volleys of arrows. edit: I've always liked the Easterlings in lotr and similar, because they've always made me wonder how they actually work.
Great video, thank you for sharing.
Halbert and Shield makes perfect sense.
Using no shield on a battlefield is basically deadly - you just need one arrow hit you in the wrong spot and you cannot fight efficiency anymore.
Remember most soldiers haven't had proper armor.
You can always drop the shield when you go into a 1:1 fight, you can even ram someone with the shield from their feet before dropping it, and using both hands to stab him, while he's on the ground.
If the shield is equipped with some proper loops, you can also wear it on the back, give you additionally protections from side cuts and from the back.
I like the idea of using the pavise to close the distance against missile weapons and then abandon it when you get in halberd swinging range. Halberds are pretty vulnerable against missile weapons but very good against many types of close range weapons like spears and swords. Also the pavise would be relatively cheap to make.
"The choppy, spiky end"... I love it when Matt gets all technical.
In the tabletop games like warhammer fantasy, you can sometimes take a shield with a halberd but you often do not get the benefit of the shield in close combat just against missile fire. Some thought for bio-mechanics did go into those rules.
What springs into my mind is a sort of heavy defensive unit, maybe to shore up a weaker line, or to block a direction of attack. You plonk the big shield in front of you, point the pocky stick out and in theory you can hold a piece of ground against anything: skirmishers, heavy cavalry, regular infantry. Now if they force you to move you are all kinds of buggered because it looks like a lot of weight to run around with, but as a kind of small "fortification" it could work.
Not sure if Matt’s ever made a video about his methodology but I’d love to hear more about what resources he tends to use and how he approaches this work.
Either the shield is a pavés, or they use them to advanced through a projectile rain and then throw them away to engage in close combat. Or maybe both previously mentioned.
I started watching the movies again because of your video. One thing I noticed is through most of the trilogy the Riders of Rohan do have their shields on their backs.
I’ve read about and seen pictures of soldiers carrying polearms and pavises accompanying crossbowmen. They would deploy the pavise in a defensive position to provide a barrier for the crossbowmen and then use their polearms with both hands from behind the shields.
Fantastic video. I did not realize halberds + shields would work at first.
The shield is for protection from missile weapons on a march (when halberdiers have to pass through an area where they might be ambushed by archers, lets say get in or out of the seidged castle), or to hold the ground (halberd is perfect for gate guards but without shields they might be vulnerable for archers and assaulted from distance).
If you get the strapping right, you're able to thrust with two hands very effectively from a side on stance, with the shield facing forward. Swinging opens you up, but if you transition from a swing to a thrust like usual, you're only open for a moment. It's my favorite to use.
I thought of protection from missiles while closing with enemy before you mentioned it, but after you said that I thought that the shields might be for the protection of crossbowmen or archers, as well as the halberdiers themselves. Seems heavy handed defense I know, but possible. As I sit here I can think of several more scenarios that it could apply to, although they all require getting rid of the shields at some point to properly deploy the halberd. I don't see this as a great problem though. Interesting info, good video, and thanks.
Agree with your final conclusion! I confess this was my main quibble with your previous video: the Southren were travelling, not in array for battle, so naturally they were carrying all their equipment, and they might not use all of it in a specific engagement. Faramir ambushed them so they were just responding in disarray.
But also, as a medievalist: 'I said this thing then immediately found another thing that disproved the thing' is such a mood! though I'm usually working manuscripts and theories of emotionality and expression rather than the art and arms of war. Still, I imagine the combat manuals bear a similar relationship to actual practice as do guides to the art of courtly love, or a speculum principi. They are fascinating in terms of how they manoeuvre between descriptive and prescriptive in their depiction of their world; they are not, however, a wikipedia article.
(and there are some lovely 14C rants about naughty hose 🤭)
Props to you for admitting being mistaken. By the way, in my own research I've seen pavises used with polearm much more often than with crossbows.
I highly suspected this was the case because the number 1 rule is if your armor isn't good you need a shield and even if your armor is good, have a shield anyway just in case of prolonged missile fire.
If you need both hands, strap the shield to your arm like phalangites.
Please do a thorough video about hoses., and give us the details of what materials (textiles and dyes) it was made, the fashion and practicability, and especially in what CONTEXT it was worn.
Matt, could you please make a video about the changes and effectiveness of swords in medieval era, like a story line comparison of the evolution of both armours and arms? And something about the possibility or not of a sword penetrate plate armour?
Great fan from Brazil here!
Not a big fan of HEMA rewriting the current understanding and fanboys then saying that D&D authors are shite because back in the 70s they said a longsword was a single handed sword so I offer an alternative explanation for a polearm and shield illustration that does not involve an illustrator making stuff up. It is obvious that the shield is concealing an M16.....
two ideas, one he'd holding it temporarily for someone else, or possibly the shield represents his oath of fealty or his survival due to his lord's protection.
I just have one board on Pinterest for Weapons, and here Matt is with individual boards for each.
Perhaps, and maybe.
The Shield and Halberd Soldiers are just Mercenaries armed with halberds who carries a Shield just to block Missiles, Assuming there's a lot of Crossbow bolts flying.
but when the Melee starts they will drop their shield.
Apologies if someone has already mentioned it, but halberds were a two-handed weapon in Warhammer (at least in the edition where those Empire Halberdiers were released). You could buy them shields, but they would only get the bonus to saving throw against missile weapons, or if they chose to use their hand weapons instead of their halberds in hand-to-hand combat.
"I've been researching hose on the internet"
Not pictured: Lucy looking in through the side window with an intense scowl.
Interesting and honest video. I do not have the solution, but a possible explanation.The Pavese shield was invented in Tuscany at the beginning of the XIII century. It was used to protect the crossbowmen but even the heavy infantry was occasionally using it.together with the spear.Some soldiers, called pavesari were specifically in charge of carrying and holding the Pavese in order to protect the crossbowmen. Sometimes the Pavese was fixed to the ground with the help of a spiked pole.in this case the crossbowman could hide and reload behind the Pavese and the pavesaro could fend of infantry or cavalry charges freely wielding his halberd with two hands. Maybe.....
The pikeman working in tandem with other types of soldiers seems likely to me. I'm certainly no expert, but I have come to the impression that in eastern Europe crossbowmen worked with other infantry units (MEDIEVAL POLISH ARMIES 966-1500 by David Nicolle & Witold Sarnecki), such as pikemen, I imagine. They used pavise shields too. The pavise shield has a stand so it can be used without your hands. So, perhaps an archer worked with the pikeman. Using the shield for cover and the pikeman as an added defense. The reason why this may be done is because infantry missile units are vulnerable to shock units like knights. It's like a tower defense game. The missile unit has the advantage so long and only so long as distance is maintained. Meanwhile, the pikeman, infantry shock unit, has the advantage over cavalry shock units.
Also, and this is way, way, way before medieval times by like a 1000 to 2000 years, but armies in Mesopotamia often used like 10 ranks of archers defended by a single front rank of spearmen who used shields that were basically pavise shields, very large and with a stand (Warfare in the Medieval World by Brian Todd Carey, Joshua B. Allfree, and John Cairns).
The other idea I have based on the Iliad, which I'm currently reading, is that perhaps when on the march they'd carry multiple types of arms so that they could modify their tactics based on whatever terrain/opponent they may find themselves fighting on. As I already pointed out in medieval times infantry missile units are weak against cavalry shock units so the bow would be disadvantageous. Infantry shock units however can struggle against missile units if the distance can't be maintained. That's based on THE ART OF WAR IN THE WESTERN WORLD (Urbana and Chicago: University of Illinois Press)
For the halberd and pavise combo, perhaps to protect archers or crossbow men? Both were vulnerable to being overrun by cavalry in a field engagement, so having some infantry with polearms to screen them might be useful. Even if it wasn’t done all the time, or even very often, it does seem like the kind of thing that could happen. Or even just a case were it was windy and the pavises kept falling over, so some infantry standing around got tasked with holding them up.
I can see three main uses:
1) transport;
2) advance under fire;
3) mobile fortification - especially with pavisses you can create a literal shield wall in front of your halbadiers to better resist incoming attack. I have seen a drawing of such somewhere years ago.
You don't need for every soldief to have such a shield, but enough to protect front and very vulnerable sides of your formation.
Varangians, and I believe Huskarls, used kite shields along with Dane axes as part of their equipage, for protection when under missile fire, so I could see it being similar with halberds.
The halberd in the picture seems particularly short, too.
Respect for standing up and saying that you may have been wrong. It proves your channel is about real education and discussion rather than just views and subs. I think the mistake was the assumption that just because they were carrying the two items at the same time, they would necessarily use them at the same moment as each other. A block of halberdiers is a strong defensive unit against direct attack, and a powerful attacking force. However, if the enemy has the capability to stand off and use ranged weapons, the halberd is no use whatsoever, and that's where the shield comes in. A Roman legionary might carry a heavy scutum, a gladius, 2 pila, and a dagger but he only had 2 hands. Each weapon had its use, but they all had to be carried to the battle. Looking at the shields, I would have thought something larger in area, but with less metal might have been appropriate - much like the pavisse shown in the historical image you have found.
Great vid matt
In XV century Italian states, infatry corporals and captains were often required to bring to war both a shield and a pollaxe, long spear or bill. In this case their servant carried the shield if they wanted to fight with the polearm, and the polearm if they wanted to fight with sword and shield.
On a more serious note, the tactic of using a pavise to help the men at arms close from shooting range was first employed in Western medieval warfare, to my knowledge, by Bertrand du Guesclin at the Battle of Auray in 1364.