Will this CHEAP New Technology Solve Battery Shortages?!
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- Опубликовано: 25 июл 2024
- As we see more and more electric vehicles on the road and a growing demand for home energy storage, car companies and cell manufacturers are having to think carefully about the availability, cost and supply chain for the core ingredients that make up the battery.
Lithium is one such ingredient that has dramatically increased in price in response to EV and stationary storage demand and according to Bloomberg, between 2021 and 2022 the cost of Lithium grew a staggering 280%. Luckily there are some pioneering companies exploring game changing alternatives to help diversify the end-to-end battery supply chain whilst reducing the impact on the environment.
Sheffield based Faradion is one such company who are investigating the viability of sodium, the metal found in common salt. As an abundant, cheap and easily recycled material - could it be a suitable replacement for Lithium?! Helen investigates!
00:00 Introduction
01:30 Why pick sodium?
02:10 How does it compare to lithium?
03:39 Back to basics and a little bit of science!
05:30 Safer?!
06:00 Salt for home energy storage!
07:00 What about cars?!
08:00 What about Sustainability?
09:00 Cheaper than Lithium?!
10:30 It's All About Scale!
11:00 Out of the Lab!
11:40 Concluding thoughts!
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#batteries #electric #energy #sustainability #electricvehicles #innovation #supplychain #lithium #energystorage #environment #grid 
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I was surprised you didnt explain "hard carbon" which is essentially industrial charcoal. Charcoal is light weight and "hard" because it forms open crystal lattices. Those 3-D lattices can handle the larger sodium ions. Graphite is dense and "soft" because it forms in sheets of 2-D lattices which are densely stacked together, but the sheets are not connected to each other so a lump of graphite is like a stack of paper: heavy and flexible and the sheets can be separated. Those sheets are called graphene. Whereas hard carbon is more like wood: lighter and rigid and full of holes.
Thanks for that explanation.
They can't say charcoal because it's a fossil fuel :D
@@YounesLayachi
Charcoal comes from wood, not the ground.
@@johnnodge4327 oh right. Is there a significant difference between charcoal and coal other than origin and purity ?
@@YounesLayachi Coal is one of the precursers to graphite. It is formed from a slurry of wet anerobic plant matter, from swamp to bog to peat to coal. Different grades of coal have different amounts of impurities (including sulfer and water) but it doesnt really have any structure other than carbon rings in a jumble.
Charcoal is plant matter (or organic byproducts) that have been forced to carbonize with heat in an anerobic environment. That heat has removed many impurities and water, but left behind cellular structures.
So they are similar in that they begin as organic matter and are approaching a pure carbon state through an oxygen-free process. But they are different in structure, weight, cost, and impurities. As a product of natural processes, coal is unpredictable and can only be mined in certain places. It is 100% a "fossil" resource. Charcoal on the other hand can be produced at the industrial scale, anywhere in the world, for relatively cheap. Charcoal within batteries could even potentially be a viewed as carbon sequestration technology for dealing with organic industrial or agricultural waste.
It bears remembering that as far back as world War One, 'Iron/Saline' batteries were fitted to military vehicles. In those days they were heavier than Lead/Acid batteries, but kept their charge much longer, and were far safer in a battle environment.
Very valid point
Very good I never knew thanks!
Are you thinking of the iron nickel Edison battery? If not can you provide a link with any info about the saline battery in WW2?
feel like there were several thing in our past that were totally viable already, yet... such a sad state of afair. Imagine where we would be if all those technologies were followed through
@@michael931 Robert Murray Smith has covered it at least some months ago and probably back further . He makes an awful lot of videos though.
The Edison battery isn't generally advisable with regards to toxicity maybe and cost and efficiency. But in a very low tech long term non monitored set-up they are very feasible but costly ; if one can afford the cost however, then one can afford higher tech gear to enable using the more efficient and temperamental batteries that require to be monitored precisely.
So far most sodium ion batteries have a lot fewer charge cycles then LFP batteries. This actually disqualifies them for grid storage at the moment. It would have been really interesting to know if this company has found a solution what is working on one for this issue.
Home storage batteries could be bigger, safer and a lot cheaper than their lithium counterparts...
my thoughts exactly, and one major pointer would be the safety, without the volatile lithium, you are much less likely to have a catastrophic fire as a result of a batter issue.
@@rompdude Sodium is still pretty reactive but sure, it's not as bad as Lithium.
You get one thing wrong - Sodium is also volatile. When you think of sodium don't think of NaCl - salt, but think of sodium as metal. Very volatile and easily flammable
@@andreykovachev7002 very true, i had totally mistook this for the nacl compound, rather than na element.
@@andreykovachev7002 thanks for that. I made the same mistake
Even if it has a slightly lower energy density than Li-ion it would still be worth it to many people because of the other benefits such as cost, ease of obtaining raw materials, longevity and fire safety.
Not to mention that it provides strategic advantages such as less reliance on a few questionable suppliers and instead just getting the core components from salt. Also less bateery fires during recycling. If they also are less prone to dendrite formation (which it sounds like at least) they might even offer similar usuable capacity on a pack level.
Fire safety alone is a good enough reason to use it instead of Lithium.
@@goaway7346 cost, availability of raw materials, more scope for local production etc enough?
@@goaway7346 Yeah, but is sodium ion more safe than lithium ion? Modern lithium batteries are pretty safe rn and sodium is a more reactive metal and therefore potentially less safe. I think the main selling point for sodium ion will be the lower cost!
@@james2396 Faradion sodium-ion cells do not contain pure metallic sodium, just like how lithium-ion cells do not contain pure metallic lithium.
What makes lithium-ion batteries potentially hazardous is not the lithium itself, but rather the batteries' high power density combined with the flammable organic electrolyte; when a lithium-ion battery is shorted, the high power density allows the battery to push a lot of power through itself, causing it to heat up, and when it gets hot enough the electrolyte catches on fire.
The equivalent sodium-ion electrolyte is more stable *because* sodium, being more reactive, clings to its electrolyte more tightly and makes it more difficult to break down, so the sodium-ion electrolyte must get a lot hotter before it will catch on fire.
I love these more scientific episodes - there's a danger of Fully Charged putting out too many pure puff pieces with little explanation of late and I miss the more in depth independent analysis which was more common previously, so more of these please, ^oo^
Agreed, I think it's the pull between Bobby (tech focused) and Dan (PR focused) as joint CEOs
I second that!
More Helen = more Scientific & Terrific.
I feel like we watched different videos. This video basically cheerleads for sodium batteries by emphasizing its strengths and ignoring the weaknesses. The biggest downside to them--and the reason they have not been widely used--is that they have significantly fewer recharging life-cycles than lithium batteries. Of course, this video doesn't even mention that. This video is an advertisement, not a serious exploration of a technology.
There is no explanation anywhere here how it works neither. Why?
Lots of promises but no cost comparison, no technical data, no real life application examples.
Great news, I've been wondering when sodium batteries would come to market. It's ridiculous that when lithium is getting harder to source economically, that it's still being used for gridscale storage.
Catl, the world's largest battery maker, are also already making sodium ion batteries.
Lithium is probably being use and has been promoted first as it suits big corporations and countries with substantial resources. Money money money !! No different to hydrogen fuel cells that were developed by partly British scientists and used in the Apollo space missions . I’m no scientist etc just an engineer and some of the best solutions end up being the simplest. At the end of the day anything that moves , generates light etc etc needs energy and all you are doing really is converting an ‘unusable fuel’ into a Usable sort of ‘fuel’ . Heat among other things is a wasted by product of using electrical energy. Very interesting video , nicely produced and interesting to watch for people like myself not too knowledgeable on this subject.👍
Well as they said its already on the market. Will we see it from big auto makers any time soon probably not as they have already signed big Lithium Ion cell deals. Could we see it out of a startup or a large auto maker that so far hasn't secured a source of Lithium cells maybe but then they would be doing catchup on everything else.
What was also mentioned is that currently its NOT close or better than lithium in power density so static applications are gonna be first to see it for cost purposes then maybe in the next 5-10 it may go mobile.
We actually may see it in budget devices where cost is driving factor.
What wasn't said was relative battery lifetime.
Li is going up lately because demand has outstripped supply faster than almost anyone other than Tesla imagined. It takes years to get a mining operation up and running and years to build processing factories; in 2 to 4 years the Li industry will catch up to the demand and there won't be a supply shortage to drive up the cost. Also there is no lack of Li compounds in the Earth's crust and Li actually is a small % of the materials that go into making a battery.
I thought that nobody was working on new batteries because they just wanted money... dam I was wrong.
I'm surprised fully charged let them get away with saying that their batteries are x% cheaper by volume. It needs to be by capacity, not volume. Whether it's corn flakes or batteries, you're interested in the amount of product in there. You don't think you've got a bargain because the content is the same but the box is bigger 👀
This is why I unsubdcribed months ago, youtube still recommends them to me from time to time. They take any bullshit without any critical thinking like religion. The channel is run by a famous actor and a bunch of journalists, not engineers or scientists, and it shows.
@@OhFishyFish I mean, Helen is literally a scientist, and Fully Charged's modus operandi is to be enthusiastic and optimistic.
They get normal folk like me reading further into the topic and pick up proper science led and critical journalism.
@@jackwarren8498 And yet none of them ask whether another revolutionary tricycle ready to change the world, exactly the same as seven previous tricycles nobody wanted, is worth the hype. Half of the videos on this channel sound like marketing aimed at investors, no questions, no doubts, it's electric and that's all we want to know.
@@OhFishyFish I LOVE how smug, arrogant and self satisfied you are.....!!!
Just perfect for taking the piss.......
@@OhFishyFish but did you unsubscribe?
Maybe raw materials could be obtained through desalination plants, 2 birds with one stone 😁
Three stones NA lithium and fresh water.
@@Barskor1 and mining the sludge that desalination plants create is going to make desalination less expensive or even profitable so making desalination a go to process. This is very cool
@@patrickjr11 Yes indeed.
I don't think we are short of salt so desalination would be an unnecessary expense.
Yes! I was thinking the same thing!
CATL are also bringing a Sodium ion battery to market so there is no doubt they will play a significant part in the market. Whereas there are plenty of "can't" people explaining why we haven't got enough x to do y so it "can't" be done (just the sort of people who are a nightmare to work with) the reality is always there is always a way with enough effort and will. The battery market is just amazing at the moment and I am sure there will be loads of chemistries used across a wide range of applications where ultimately as the tech matures, a few will come to dominate. Exciting times!!
To be completely fair, the “can’t” people are usually correct though. For every new technology that succeeds to change our lives in positive ways there are 5 or more that completely fail.
@@soulfuzz368 Sorry I have to disagree. Can't people don't try or give up wasily. They usually don't want to try too because status quo is for them safe and known. The point is there is always a way...it might not be the first idea, like the inventor of the light bulb, Thomas Edison famously tried dozens of different designs until it worked. His famous quote is
"Many of life’s failures are people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up." Thomas Edison
But with AI you can do more and fantastically quicker today. One battery companyI know of is running 350,000 possible variants of a new battery chemistry, to find the best. A problem has to be worked on, and worked on until the solution is found.
@@AdrianSmale no need to apologize, I commend your optimism!
This was a great episode, would like to see more of these. The two questions I DIDN'T hear, was how it compared in charge/discharge cycle life and degradation. I'll assume that LiFePo levels can be achieved.
Heard its even better than the lithium counter parts
Agree , no cycles or tests . Wanted to see physical damage tolerance also
I agree. More of these and more questions of comparison.
Exactly the same question I'll get from customers wanting to buy batteries, but in the form of "Will it keep my camping fridge running for a whole long weekend?"
Yeah, we need more numbers. Also, energy per weight, energy per volume and max charge and discharge current, all compared to our lovely explosive li-ion batteries we all know.. Some data on the resistance to shock, or puncture, etc would also be appreciated...
Excellent video, thank you Helen. 3.1v, 40 Ah cells mean 124 Wh for that cell. This equates to 80 of those to make a 10kWh battery, which looks like a good solution for domestic storage. It would be interesting to know the energy density per kg and per litre so we could calculate how far they need to improve to work in vehicles. (64kWh would need 516 cells which looks like it would be quite large and heavy) It would also be good to know what is the degradation over a few thousand charge / discharge cycles.
Yes I second this regarding the content, great video.
I also had the same questions after watching, also what price per kWh they're targeting to allow a true comparison to be made.
I read an article about CATL sodium ion battery saying it has 1500 cycles compared to 6000 for LFP. Sodium batteries will have to make progress on this front especially for stationary storage
They show the energy density in the video as targeting 500Wh/kg. With shipped products having energy density of >140Wh/kg and >400Wh/l with >93% capacity after >1000 cycles. And a much higher runaway temp compared to Li bats.
@i-mm-o res he uses the phrase "In terms of volume it will be about 24-32% less expensive than a Li-Ion" - whatever that means. But as he puts it, no need for cobalt, copper, lithium or graphite, it should be muuuuch much cheaper than Li-Ion. As in 5 to 10 times cheaper - Sodium is one of the most abundent materials on earth. We are also not in short supply of Aluminum for the cathode and annode, nor in short supply of carbon. Now I understand that this is within it's first phase, but down the line a few years, we should see huge improvements in this regards.
7:21 "We have a road map for development to go... in excess of 200 Wh per kilo."
Really cool episode, thank you! The fact that sodium-ion batteries are already at parity with LiFo batteries from an energy density perspective is really impressive. I'm curious how they compare in terms of longevity and charge cycles, since that's a strong point for LiFo. The wider operating temperature of sodium-ion could certainly be a big advantage in continental climates where you have cold winters and hot summers!
There are a few *very important* aspects that haven't been treated like how many charge/discharge cycles can the battery sustain, what charging speed it can tolerate (how much can you charge in 15 minutes without damaging the battery), what's the maximum acceptable charge for daily usage (for lithium is usually 90%, going to 100% would be great).
Exactly. Its not what they say, it's what they don't say. If sodium ion is so great the manufacturers would be all over it.
@@scanspeak00 Apparently the manufacturers are all over it...based on reports, India's Reliance has brought out the company featured in this video for $150M and are going "all in" for large scale production. Also there are other players, including in China who are moving into the production phase.
@@carlredmond3642 which company is this?
@@_nimrod92 See Wikipedia for a list of companies into production of sodium ion batteries. Just look up Sodium Ion Battery.
Love Helen's science episodes - they explain stuff I would never know anything about - or have any hope of even slightly understanding otherwise - Thanks all - keep up the good work!
Great episode! I love that they are actually shipping products. Onward and Upward!
Great information, seems more like a primer to NA-ion batteries for awareness purposes. It would've been extremely interesting to see actual test numbers rather than the theoreticals when comparing against Li-ion regarding aspects like production/environmental costs, charge/discharge rates, battery lifetimes, capacity to size ratios etc. Could be a nice follow-up, you know...For Science!.
Yes, the numbers they talked about were very marketing washed. This looks like a great technology but they worked to hard to say they were better than lithium.
Small point: it is Na not NA. No offence intended, just elemental clarification. Good post gonzo191.
Na-ion batteries have 50-70% less specific energy & 50-70% less energy density. So a car battery would be twice the size and twice the weight.
Na-ion batteries have a long way to go. Dendrites being the main problem here. If discharged too quickly it's KO-ed round one. Way worse then Pb-acid. Temperature being the other blinding weakness. Sodium amalgames/alloy/complex... not a chemist (idk what you would call it) might be the answer. The sodium ion electrolyte is way more unstable without Hg, it crashes out of solution easily. Mercury would make recycling much much harder. It's Nobel Peace prize worthy if they figure it out!
*This is what was explained to me by a chemist friend that works in the field. Correct me if I'm wrong please. I could have it mixed up.
@@vegiimite - Exactly and it's the reason why Na batteries haven't become the EV or mobile electronic markets "goto" battery of choice.
Great video! I'm hoping they scale up quick so I can buy one of these as home battery storage.
I agree, I started looking to see where you could actually buy these things, but it doesn't look like they are there yet.
The first tech video on you tube to start us off with a refresher of the Periodic Table...
Really great article. I also appreciate that Fully Charged avoided the hype of this replacing all other known batteries, as is often the way with many RUclips videos. We are going to end up with a suite of battery solutions, each best at a specific task / application. I'm looking forward to a sodium ion powerwall coming out in the not too distant future.
I hope it makes it into volume production so different industries (storage, auto, etc.) can evaluate it for production uses.
Apparently CATL is already manufacturing their own sodium Ion batteries, with energy density similar to LFP.
@@antontaylor4530 Do you also know how many cycles that one does?
@@sneaky_krait7271 I believe CATL is claiming that they match LiFePo4 for cycle life.
However, after a bit of research, the CATL batteries are physically bigger than LiFePo4 by about 33%. They have similar weight to power ratios to LiFePo4, but take up much more room.
I believe they're using much cheaper materials for the cathode than the batteries in this video, Prussian white instead of Nickel, so they'll cost significantly less than nickel based Sodium Ion batteries. CATL is claiming $40/kWh Vs $70-$80 per kWh for nickel based Sodium Ion, or $100/kWh for LiFePo4.
So the CATL batteries are probably going to be best for things like city busses (lots of space for batteries, but not much daily milage) or for shorter range "city" EV's. Or static batteries.
Also, CATL is looking to ramp up production fairly slowly as there's no demand yet from big customers like Tesla. So I don't think we'll be getting our grubby mitts on these batteries for a few years, even though they're technically on the market as of a couple of months ago.
@@antontaylor4530 I've read somewhere else that they do 1500 cycles, so that's decent. 40$ means it's basically a third of the price of NMC and half of LFP. That is enough to justify it's bigger size, especially when ground up EVs offer quite some extra space over ICE cars. There is some more room to work with
@@sneaky_krait7271 To be honest, if they really do charge to 80% in 15 minutes (as CATL claims) then that shorter range wouldn't be the end of the world anyway.
If you consider, say, an MG5 "long range" has a real world range of 200 miles/320km, even if you halved that, it would still be fine for 99% of people 99% of the time.
Yes, the occasional long journey would be a pain in the butt, but 15 minutes at a charger every hour is something that I'd be ok with if it meant a truly cheap EV.
Most of my journeys are well under 100 miles anyway.
If it doesn’t need to move then it doesn’t need to be light. If it’s deployed in an industrial setting it’s also unlikely that it needs to be small too. Save the Lithium for vehicles that need it: lorries, buses and E-bikes.
With an energy density similar to LFP, which Tesla is already putting into the model 3, lithium will probably be best kept for the most lightweight applications in the form of lithium ion and lithium polymer batteries.
Drones, planes etc. I don't think most vehicles will need to worry about the extra few percent of weight that a sodium Ion battery represents.
As for lorries and busses, a "trolleybus" solution would make the most sense, with a much smaller battery for the off-grid portions of a journey.
I.e. moving around a construction site or a depot.
The majority of freight should be moving by train anyway.
If it doesn't move can't it just be connected to the grid? (I'm not being sarcastic, just wondering)
@@tommcalpine6062 not necessarily, common applications for stationary batteries are UPS (backup for when the grid fails, a hospital can't just accept that for example) and grid balancing: store excess renewable electricity for the next they when there's no wind/sun.
@@tommcalpine6062 well yeah it can be connected to the grid. Good as a backup, for critical applications especially. But if you have solar on the roof (which you should do) and/or a wind turbine on site then generate/store to reduce your reliance on the grid.
@@tommcalpine6062 My father in law has an off-grid cabin. It was cheaper to buy solar panels, charge controller, batteries and inverter than it was to connect the cabin to the grid.
And on top of that usage case, you have grid level storage. In the UK, for example, renewable energy could reliably power almost the entire country as things stand, but it needs grid level storage to make that work. Essentially you can maximize the efficiency of solar, wind and hydro power if you have batteries, and you can significantly reduce reliance on gas, coal and oil power plants.
On top of that, static storage could make fast chargers for cars available in places where it wouldn't be possible otherwise.
Like, if you have a village that doesn't have a large enough connection to the grid to support 350KW chargers without blowing the power out, you can add batteries. You trickle charge those batteries during the night, and then when you need a surge of power to charge a car, that surge comes from cheap batteries.
That way you don't need to dig up the roads and fit bigger cables into the village.
And on top of that, as Simon and David pointed out, you have backup power to consider.
I used to work in a massive data center. We pulled so much power from the national grid that when it snowed, it would heat up the pavement into the building so much that the snow would melt in that spot.
We had generators the size of houses in the basement for backup, and then batteries on every floor to provide power when the grid went down - just to give us time to start up the generators.
Too good to be true!
No mention of maximum charge/discharge rates, times, capacity or longevity.
So interesting - thank you so much for explaining it so clearly Helen!
it will be interesting for home energy storage, grid batteries, buffers for charging stations.
We really should be calling the "Lithium Iron Phosphate" as Lithium Ferrous Phosphate (LFP), as retail customers hear "Lithium Iron" as "Lithium Ion".
Does anyone know how much current the Sodium based technology is able to deliver - is it in the same class as the Lithium Polymer cells found in Drones, or the LiFePo4 cells, or the equal of the ubiquitous 18650 cells ?
Fantastic show guys. Hope to see you in Sydney
Excellent video! I can imagine areas around the world who need drinking water, taking sea water, and ending up with drinking water and the waste bi-product salt going into batteries. A true win,win !
Talking about those locations, where would you let go of the chlorine byproduct then at those locations? 🤔🤔🤔
This is so important... not for the EV market per say - although cheap cars with a limited autonomy can be made with these, but especially for home use. At my house, I have the capacity to produce around 15 megawatts of energy/year from solar, and need about 6 megawatts of energy/year to be completely energetically independent. Problem is that 66% of the consumption is done during the winter months, when the solar energy production is at it's lowest at ~15% of the yearly production. Now imagine installing 200kw of battery storage at the price of what today costs for around 30kw of storage. That would help equalize my dependence on the grid during wintertime. Imagine also having terawatts of storage connected to the grid itself, in order to equalize production curves from regenerable sources. Imagine electricity stations for EV's, with gigawatts of storage on site ready to fast charge car batteries, connected to fields of solar to keep them topped out.
Another brilliant piece of reporting by Helen, I would to see it under actual driving conditions for EV, like various temperatures, current demand, ageing.
Do you mean another piece of marketing with loads of speculating and little data?
Wow amazing, I thought this was going to be another one of those just in the lab technologies. Its amazing where they have got to, and are producing real life products.
One thing not mentioned was how does the lifetime / number of charges compare to lithium? Is this comparable as well? I assume it must be if customers are investing in infrastructure.
It's so crazy..I actually had this idea 3 years ago. Salt is an excellent conductor and it's extremely abundant. I'm glad they're using this ☺️
A great idea. I wonder if you could extract the sodium from the brine water that is a byproduct from desalination plants?
Few comments here also cover that so you are not alone on the idea.
The sodium extraction could “easily” be done at desalination plants. What I meant was that by taking the salt from desalination plants and using it to produce batteries reduces the environmental impact on the sea life and it reduces the increased local salinity at the fore mentioned facilities. My 2 cents.
My first thought, also 🙂
Maybe not. You need to store and process a huge quantity of water which takes a lot of energy to do this quickly. The desalinated water is needed in costal cities... not much room for huge drying pools. Salt mines have 99% dry deposits... and sea salt is not 'sodium'...
Sodium isn't the only salt pulled from ocean water. There are efforts to use desalinization waste in chemical manufacturing as a way to subsidized the water cost. It will be interesting to see if that has a role in Na batteries.
Definitely not the easiest or cheapest way to get sodium though.
You mean extracting salt from brine left after desalination?
@@موسى_7 yep.
Amazing 👏. Congratulations. Good luck in massive production of your products
Great to see a Sheffield company on here, there are many world leading engineering firms in this city and the univeristy of sheffield is one of the best places to study engineering in the world. It's nice to remind Americans that the UK isn't just London
It a Indian company now. Their manufacturing is moving to India an I'm sure over time so will the expertise in Sodium Batteries.
8:00 - hitting the nail on the head, this is exactly what will show if "Na" sodium batteries will succeed.
Nice one, but weather its Lithium, Sodium or even Potassium there is only one electron per atom. However, the mass of sodium is 3.6 times greater than that of lithium. Thus, for the sodium ion battery to provide the same energy it has to be 3.6 times heavier than lithium ion battery. Also, sodium is almost twice denser than lithium by mass, which means the volume of the battery or the size will be around 7 times larger. Well I guess the fewer mileages from full charge can be compensated by good logistics.
A Lithium Ion battery uses relatively little Lithium, even if the name suggests something else. The main materials are graphite and metals like copper. Lithium is a small percentage of the weight.
The first sodium Ion batteries now have an energy density comparable to older LFP batteries.
At the beginning the first applications may be stationary storage, which is an important thing for future and every lithium Ion battery there replaced by sodium Ion can be used for a different purpose
@@simonm1447 quot 'there's about 63 kg of lithium in a 70 kWh Tesla Model S battery pack, which weighs over 1,000 lbs (~453 kg).' Ok I am not an expert in Li ion batteries but based on that quot, it would add around 40% to a batterie weight, and increase its volume by around 60%. This is still a huge loss in efficiency. (I am sure in response I will get, 'your are no expert in math too.') But you get the idea. I am sure a person making Li on battery (Mr. Notgoodenough) would know that you can replace lithium with sodium, its pretty basic chemistry. However, for some reason he went for rare and more expansive lithium, it could be due to higher reactivity of sodium which makes it a huge fire hazard, but in reality it makes no difference. Defective battery would be a fire hazard regardless and that difference doesn't really play a huge role.
@@ashW110 There's a misunderstanding regarding the Tesla battery. It don't contain 63 kg lithium, it contains 63 kg lithium carbonate. In 63 kg lithium carbonate you have around 12 kg pure lithium, the rest is carbon.
However, I assume mobile purposes won't be the primary market for sodium ion, this chemistry will be well suited for stationary use first, and may be used later for EVs like with LFP which needed a couple of years to reach an energy density making it interesting for standard range vehicles.
Today 50 % of all new Teslas have a LFP battery, which improved over the years and has reached the energy density of earlier NCM cells from 10 years ago now
@@simonm1447 The devil is in details, did't realise it was carbonate. Great, developing battery tech is perhaps one of the most important need for the environment
@@ashW110 Indeed, it's very important to develop such batteries, especially batteries without materials limited in mining. I don't see sodium ion as a Li ion replacement, at least at the beginning it's a complement for purposes where weight don't play a role.
BTW, a lot of websites also made the mistake to confuse 63 kg Li carbonate with pure lithium.
I like this stuff. I want the positive look at what might happen and how we can get out of our current mess.
Sodium is reaffirm available as a biproduct of desalination - how great if we could tien that into a battery that stores power on a large scale.
But I would also love to see a bit more challenge - how stable are these over time? How does hard carbon handle vibration etc? How many have been shipped and has anyone actually bought one yet? What is the road map looking like? A bit of genuine new, even if some of the answers are shaky, would give me more confidence...
I remember also seeing that CHEL is working on a sodium ion battery that they’re hoping to bring to market either this year or next year. For those of you that don’t know CATL is the largest battery manufacturer in China, but also in the world.
Energy Density will always win for mobile applications
Sodium batteries could be for fixed applications where space isn't an issue like at power plants
and yet increasingly EV manufacturers are switching to LFP batteries instead of the higher energy density of common lithium ion.
Energy density doesn't always win...
I like the idea of having one or two of these batteries in a domestic setting, so collect power from (off peak?) mains, solar & wind. The more local and decentralised the better.
Exactly. It could provide a market based solution to the problem of renewable intermittency, allowing more PVs and turbines to be rolled out and eventually eliminating the need for gas generation. If the market allows buying cheap and selling expensive the batteries pay for themselves and incentivise take up. Local storage also means the grid doesn’t need such massive upgrades in capacity to cope with surges as electrical devices displace fossil fuel for heating and transport.
If we start to use industrial desalination for our water supply, one challenge is properly returning the high salinity water back to the sea responsibly. If we need salt to decompose into sodium then the ejecta from desalination process would benefit from the energy used to supply water by consuming high value (high density) brine from the process.
Great video, I love that such projects exist!
7:37 Fun fact - we don't need rapid acceleration. We need cheap and reliable cars. Rapid EVs can have all the lithium in world to use on their tracks. My current car has 44kW peak power, but I quite rarely rev it above 5000rpm, so I am probably daily using half or a third of that power.
Good point, the 150 kW motor in my car is probably only using 15%-20% of its capability at motorway cruising speeds.
Fun fact - your car is probably able to burn much of the 44kw at much less than 5000rpm.
Acceleration was what she was talking about. Not rpm wgich refers to top speed. (Unless you have a multi speed gearbox?)
But yes, virtually nobody needs horsepower in a car.
This is untrue, and I believe you believe this because you are uneducated about this specifically.
The reason that consumer vehicles and EVs are able to go as fast as they are is because running an engine, or an electric motor, at 100% for extended periods of time is not only extremely inefficient, but also very damaging to the engine/motor. Therefore, in order to improve the reliability, and also the longevity of the engine/motor, it's "ideal operation range" is usually anywhere from only 20-40% of it's 100% capability. This means that, as a consequence, yes, the engine/motor is usually only doing 40-60 MPH of the 160+ MPH it's capable of, therefore only 20-30% of what it's capable of, and that's perfect because that means it's very easy in terms of mechanical load for it to handle.
This is simple psychics, and a consequence of creating efficient, reliable, and long-lasting engines and EV motors. If cars were created as you say, with an engine/motor running at 100% capability being only going 60-80 MPH, vehicles would break VERY often.
it’s amazing that we are at the dawn of “personal energy” almost like 40 years ago we were at the dawn of personal computing.
price per KWh? weight/size of battery? these are critical pieces of info that are missing from this video.
Well they said 20%-30% cheaper than Li-ion so you could probably work it out for yourself. Also for non automotive applications that they appear to be concentrating on at the moment size and weight don't matter so much.
They said the energy density and market targets(LiFePh). So you can assume price. It's a new product so the prices are probably higher in alot of areas than it will be in 2-5 years. Probably why they beat around the bush a little bit not saying a specific price.
Plus this video will persist and saying a specific price now is a bad business move.
@@TimJW too much "figuring out" for me IMHO. if you factor in weight, size, KWH, price, thens it hard to get a grasp at how much this really costs. i wish them the best of luck.
i think it would be great if we could just get a very cheap home/personal storage battery, even if it is really heavy. we just need cheap storage as energy will be very abundant within 5-10 years it will be insane how much cheap energy we have.
We are really moving into a new age for Mankind. We actually have no idea on how to even deal with abundance.
In depth but really clearly explained. A great presenter 👏
This is the type of content I want to see ;) More of this please.
Another huge step for EVs is to use magnets without rare earths in them such as iron nitride magnets as they can be stronger than neodymium magnets motors and generators can be made smaller and lighter and that improves the range of the EV or allows for fewer batteries to be used per EV. Niron Magnetics make them in the USA.
I’ve never heard of these types of magnets, if they are less rare and stronger then why don’t they already use them? I have to assume anyone trying to make a motor for profit would use the cheapest materials with the best output? Hope it’s a good option like you said though!
@@trancetechkid It's probably new technology. I'd assume there's an adoption curve if they deliver, but obviously we don't know yet.
I really happy to see more people bringing that up! I did that before, but none seems to care, no this mensage is picking up speed, and there is already an youtuber Robert Murray Smith, that did a video on that, called, Clear Earth magnets!
They’re new technology that sounds promising.
Yeah they are stronger, but their coercivity is lower than neodymium magnet
I think this will be the main technology for grid scale battery storage it is just so much cheaper and easier. There is no particular reason to use lithium in non-mobile applications.
Yes, where size/weight aren't an issue. Home storage would be an option for using these with solar?
I agree, and I suspect CO2 domes will replace hydrogen for long term energy storage
Best part of utilizing sodium is that it also tackles one of the biggest conundrums with desalination plants and the salt water that's currently being pumped back into the ocean. If we take that salt water and utilize the salt from it, we could in turn avoid any environment problems and in turn utilize the salt for things like these new batteries.
Great to here about new battery technology and a UK company shipping product.
Saying that Spodumene comes from DRC is a kind of cheap shot not expected from fully charged show.
Please have a decent editorial oversight.
Yeah. My ears pricked up there too.
Same here, especially since RDC does even appear (yet) on the map of lithium suppliers
I would have liked to see a bit more detail on price, energy density/kg and degradation.
Degradation is excellent based on the info out there but indeed, density/kg is a hard to overcome problem for cars etc given the weight of sodium vs lithium
"we have "a roadmap" to 200W/kg, the same as LFP (now)".
Great, but the new CATL LFP cell is reputedly already better(?)
Moving goalposts.
I had no idea this even existed.
Please give these guys a large bag of money please so they can develop this further into mainstream products.
I was wondering if you guys were going to cover the sodium push... awesome.
Would have appreciated a discussion on the fact that sodium ion as of now can't discharge and recharge nearly as many times as lithium ion. That's a massive drawback, but it's something actively being worked by lots of researchers. Knowing more about overcoming that shortcoming would be great.
I think this has huge potential especially if they can be partnered with Super Capacitors, which is something I happen to be working on.
Yes because ‘power’ density for sodium is 3% that of lithium. So trickle charging a capacitor could be useful for supplying limited spikes.
I can see massive potential for super capacitors, especially in energy recovery in vehicles. Those are the (missing) link imo.
Great episode, love these more in-depth ones 👍👍👍
Great! Another breakthrough. For me, it’s about time that we see at least some of these breakthroughs in our daily life.
Given the need to create both fresh water and hydrogen from sea water will be a big thing, the sludge that is a byproduct of desalination is going to be a real resource for sodium ion and later sodium sulphur batteries. And the sludge has other resources in it that are going to be very important. It's a proper link up of tech that will be a win win win for everyone.
Totally agree! That sludge will be worth millions for other resources and minerals as new uses are found for it. One man's muck is another's brass.
@@nickward1277 absolutely
All hydrogen production/ storage/ use does is provide ample opportunity to throw green energy away...... (Thus leaving fossil generation on the grid)
@@rogerstarkey5390 yes and no. There will be industrial need for green hydrogen. That is unavoidable and in ways desirable to get rid of grey and blue hydrogen. The question is, where does the water come from. Clearly sea water, as potable or drinking water is a scarce and valuable resource. Getting sea water to the state it needs to be in to go through the electrolysis system creates the sludge. Up to now, that is just pumped back out to sea but that causes all sorts of ecological harm as it covers the sea bed with a layer that kills everything. If however the sludge can be mined, then game on!
Exactly the same for desalination of sea water for drinking water. Same sludge, same opportunity for sludge mining. It's a proper opportunity to do something really special with the whole desalination value chain and help prevent causing harm out at sea.
I see your point but what a lot of people disregard is the chlorine. What do you do with all that chlorine that you remove from the salt? It's toxic so you can't just release it into the athmosphere.
Great job as usual. We need more videos from Helen
Great coverage!
Good to have mentioned the human cost of lithium batteries and the comparative benefit of using sodium (w/o lithium nor cobalt)!
There's a few good reasons sodium batteries aren't used. The limiting factor has several episodes exploring the chemistry of why sodium is not likely the answer. The biggest issue is that the sodium swells and contracts too much and destroys the battery after a few hundred charge cycles.
Indeed, they state "hundreds to thousands of cycles, depending on depth of discharge and charge/discharge conditions.", but fail to say how many hundreds/thousands and what the conditions are or show any graphs showing cycling performance at different charging temperatures/charge rates/discharge rate/discharge depths.
I'd like to see Helen do a video battery 101 on the basics: volumetric density, gravimetric density, cycling, charging/discharging rates and depth, charging temperature, cell degradation/failure through pulverisation/dendritic growth. Won't happen though, as the show shies away from science and critical thinking, preferring optimism over realism.
The ATME battery based on this lists 1000 cycles.
Looks like a very welcome addition to energy storage. Odd that there is no mention of safety, which is a significant problem with Lithium Ion batteries. Are these Sodium batteries safer than Lithium Ion?
yes, they say it right at the beggining
@@crackedemerald4930 Thanks, I missed that bit.🤔
It's not really when you compare to other "energy storage" (petroleum products)
Very interesting and hope to see it very soon all over the world....
Bravo 👏👏👏 Fantastic tech, brilliantly presented in a creative 'beeb' style quality film 👍
No mention of charge cycles?
Could they work in conjunction with desalination plants for sourcing of the sodium? I would think this a very convenient way to get sodium as the brine produced from desal plants is so concentrated and is considered a potential harm to the environment at the desal plant's outfall...
The process of extracting sodium from salt is really electricity-intensive, so it has to be done where electricity is cheap. Same as aluminium production.
@@vylbird8014 desalination of seawater is energy intensive also. So if facilities have already existed for the energy intensive desalination, one can envision using some membranes to extract sodium ions.... Am I right?
@@Ktsquare2008 No reason that couldn't work. Seawater desalination produces brine as a byproduct, so all you need to do is evaporate off the water from that to get salt. You wouldn't get sodium metal straight out of the membranes though - you'd get brine or, if you did some chemical work, possibly sodium hydroxide. Turning your sodium ions into sodium metal is still going to take a a lot of energy.
really interesting, thanks for the video
I would appreciate a more comprehensive comparison of lithium and sodium in terms of energy density, cost, charging time and other benefits rather than just the manufacturer giving a one sided view.
Ahhhh Helen is back love the science ones, don’t get me wrong the big chap doing reviews and Robert ranting are good as well.
Someone will crack the battery to take it to next gen or new level that there is no mistake just too many companies, universities all looking to advance battery science.
Probably all the protagonists are eagerly taking out patents to block the other companies using the competing technology so I would think that there is a much suppression of technology as enhancement. Never underestimate the power of patent law as a weapon for profitability in companies with big legal clout with well funded lawyers in maintaining stale technology and killing innovation. These patents can also be sold which also continues their invidious clamp on progress even when the initiating company loses interest.
What are the expected life span of these cells?
should be very good.. they can be discharged to zero, they don't have a cobalt anode.. this is the part that can get damaged, and they have a good thermal range so over heating/cooling is less of a problem. The main issue is density.. similar to NiCad
@@julesdingle They really avoided the questions for use in EVs. The energy density is still a lot lower than Li-Ion.
For home power storage or large grid storage it's less of a problem. Who cares how big or heavy they are if they are just sitting still.
Excellent presentation. Very exciting!
Will be exciting to follow this new technology as it becomes more popular in the marketplace. Great episode……science made easy
The thing I like most about episodes hosted by Dr. Helen is this: She's a physicist, so she a) understands the tech behind the hype and, b) challenges those being interviewed with unquestionable credibility; keeping them honest.
I agree she's excellent
What was the size of that wall mounted Faradion battery? How does it compare volumetrically to lithium ion equivalents like Tesla's powerwall?
And what is the cycle life compared to LFP and NMC batteries? My understanding is that sodium based batteries tend to have a significantly lower cycle life due to the sodium being unstable (or the sodium causing the anode/cathode to expand and break apart or something like that - not sure exactly).
Thank you for raising that. I'm surprised it wasn't discussed in the video...
@@AlanUK78 I'll guess it was deliberately omitted because it's very unfavourable right now.
@@AlanUK78
Maybe check their website? (Assuming it IS being sold?)
the volume expansion problem is mainly to do with graphite - the spaces in graphite are not quite large enough to accommodate sodium ions, which are fatter than lithium ions; squeezing sodium into graphite causes the spaces to get "wedged" apart over time. That's why they are using hard carbon instead of the standard graphite anodes used by lithium-ion batteries.
@@PixlRainbow Come to think of it, I think I was getting sodium mixed up with silicon. I know some battery makers like Tesla are trying to replace increasing amounts of the graphite with silicon for the anode. It's the silicon that breaks up that I was thinking of. I guess both the sodium and silicon aspects of battery chemistry have big problems to overcome.
Very good presentation. Really professional.
Excellent stuff!
Really great to see the home energy-storage battery there - looks great!
There's no doubt at all that sodium-ion is the way of the future.
Lithium is just too rare and expensive and it will only get more so over the next years and decades.
One interesting phenomenon I've noticed for batteries is that portable general-purpose batteries are far more expensive per-kWh than electric car batteries, in spite of being much slower in charge/discharge times. For instance, a 1 kWh battery costs around $1000, and has charge/discharge speeds of only a few kW. Yet, an entire car with a 66 kWh battery and a 150kW maximum discharge rate sells for only around $30,000.
This discrepancy is insane, and seems to suggest that automakers have the world's lithium market cornered, leaving everyone else to pay vastly higher prices for what scraps are left. Some of it could also be government incentives that apply on to cars, but not to other battery uses.
Hopefully, the availability of alternatives such as sodium will help fix this. It seems utterly ridiculous to be in a world where electric cars are quasi-affordable, yet food trucks have no choice but to run off gasoline generators because the relatively tiny battery that would replace it is cost-prohibitive.
well, if you buy 100 million cells with latest tech, you get a pretty good discount. you don't even get a single cell with an energy density of 300Wh/kg on the open market (amazon etc.).
The per cell level pricing is around $100/Kwh. It could go as high as $120/kWh. In the case of home use, that particular market isn't really a highly competitive market, so there's no reason to pass down the saving to you as the consumer. There's other things including engineering costs etc that they need to cover for your home system. If everyone wanted a home backup system that would obviously change.
I think some of this is down to economies of scale. Firstly, production level, but also... If you a battery that costs you $1000 to build you need to sell it for $2000 to cover sales, marketing, office costs, IT, admin etc. If you have a battery that costs $10,000 to build you might sell it on for $12,000. Also I managed to get Pylontech batteries for my home solar at more like 2kWh battery per $1000.
This appears to be the holy grail - less Lithium mining as a major result if this takes off!
Except it's not.
It's simply a other possibility for certain applications.
Lithium batteries having voltage when being recycled is actually a bonus to the recycling industry. That energy has value. They discharge that energy during recycling and it powers a large amount of the factory.
Fantastic news, and I guess less energy intensive to produce the batteries also. This needs to be scaled up pronto surely!
Stability, durability against thermal runaway/fire, recyclability, overall longevity, long term energy retention, cycle count before 10% degradation all need to be considered. This is a too simplified view of a complex system with multiple unmentioned variables.
7:50 "For LiFePo applications and lead acid applications", which means the energy density will be low compared to Lithium Ion technology. Seconds later you show an electric car. Facepalm!
Some cars use LiFePO4 because it is cheaper. Ie Tesla standard range manufactured in China.
BYD and most Chinese car companies use LFP along with Tesla so absolutely fine for EVs. Energy density is and will increase of course but they are fine as of today.
@@royhenderson4085
Sure, I have LiFePo in my house and it is possible to put it in a car...but, it isn't a replacement for LiIon and never will be due to energy density. Lithium ion energy density is already pretty bad compared to gas.
This is why I am a Patreon. The content here is amazing. We need more groundbreaking mini documentaries like this to help fight the FUD from the fossil industry now more than ever.
Great episode, keep them coming.
Hold on, lithium is everywhere and this video starts with a blatant lie. Ummm
You mean the not enough lithium lie?
Doesn't matter how much there is. Just the cost is important.
@@موسى_7 It’s a supply problem not a scarcity problem and it’s a growing industry. Yeah it’s cheaper but my point is that it’s misleading.
@@موسى_7 it's still a lie the way they put it have no problem with them saying it's cheaper for the reasons given above when the truth is more than enough to prove a point why lie.
It is relativistic. They are specifically comparing standard seawater sodium extraction with spogamine ore mining. Lithium clays may be similar impact. But the bigger factor is price and global politics and secondary materials like nickel and cobalt. As any nation with a stretch of coastline or with buried salt deposits could get into the sodium battery business without spending decades setting up spogamine mines and ore processing, it has a much bigger potential. Also remember that stable storage needs to be deployed even more than automobiles and needs a dramatically lower price point. Even if 100% of sodium batteries went to stable storage it is still a HUGE business.
You deliberately left out the reasons why lithium is better, weight and amount of charge. If sodium was better than lithium we would have started using and developing 30 years ago, your video is misleading or at best naive.
Weight was mentioned at least twice in the comparisson of atom weight and the energy density (w/kg) compared to LiFePO4.
@@royhenderson4085 Sodium is three times heavier than lithium (300%) and holds 40% less charge, neither of those facts were mentioned. It has a place in stationary storage and when it's developed for that it will replace lithium, but I do not believe it will replace LFP in transport. Each type of battery will made for it's best use, just like when you buy a car, no point in buying a 2 seater if you have a family of 5.
It’s one thing to develop a new battery technology and it’s another thing to scale it and implement it into the supply chain, let alone this battery technology we are still 15 years behind in commercializing solid stayr state batteries, yes 15 years behind. There’s nothing stopping us with the battery shortage
Great video as always. Would've liked it more if our good Dr. would've questioned the tam about how they solved the innate problem of Na batteries i.e. expansion of crystal lattice until breakdown. That would've justified the title. Been eager to learn about the solution.
I think they sprinkle in a little sulfur to deal with that. IIRC, Just Have a Think or Matt Ferrell that did an episode about that a couple of months back, although I'm not sure if it was this company exactly.
Competition in any market can drive the cost down eventually but I believe more needs to be explained about sodium batteries and what is the like for like against lithium batteries.
If it is as they say, this could be a turning point for the EV industry especially in cost, (and sustainability and resourcefulness) as this is still one of the biggest hindrances of buyers coming to this market. I'm not talking just about cars either.
Great video! I think you understated the importance of this technology a bit. I see energy storage as one of the primary hurdles our world needs to overcome to get to the next level. Right now, solar and wind generation absolutely must be paired with fossil fuel generation because of their intermittent nature. If batteries became cheap enough that installing distributed power storage at individual homes became the norm rather than the exception, we could reduce the dependence on fossil fuels to fill the gaps that renewables create.
Everyone wants batteries for cars, but energy generation creates as much CO2 as transportation does and, at least to me, it feels like an easier win to try to get all of the coal/NG plants shuttered than it is to try to get everyone to buy an EV.
We need to diversify solutions as much as possible. This sounds really a good way to go, but it can't be the only one.
Interesting , Thank You. I hope every thing works
sweet! cost and material scarcity are major factors holding back the transition! the insane amount of gridstorage we need in the next decade alone will be lots of billions, shaving off 30% is HUGE!
now the question is how fast can they scale massproduction, we need literal tons of batteries per week.
Thank you for fantastic episode. My background is chemistry, I am long time EV advocate and I worked 2 years in recycling business. This technology has so much promise for all the reasons you stated. I just want to add that every time the battery does not have any special elements, nobody wants to recycle them. It is just not worth the hassle and we are just filling up landfills. I hope they recover at least iron.
Sodium ions in landfill is less of a problem than lithium
@@growtocycle6992 Lithium would not end up in landfill as it has value. I think they will have to recycle sodium batteries anyway. The atom economy shows chlorine as a byproduct. It is in salt but not in battery.
@@stanislavjaracz Chlorine is used in PVC plastics. Also it is the chelation atoms of numerous anions in ionic liquids and chemicals. The active ingredient in sanitizing tissue to clean my living space is alkyl dimethyl benzyl ammonium chloride. There is the chlorine atom.
So I think the chlorine byproduct is useful. If difficulty arrives from that byproduct, it may not be its usefulness but some other things.
can't wait to see these on the shopping shelves!!
Some information about this company left out in the video.
1) This company has been acquired by Indian conglomerate Reliance industries. So whatever scaling up and manufacturing they are planning will happen in India in the future.
2) Faradion batteries use Nickel, an element which is more scarce than Lithium. CATL Na-ion batteries on the other hand use no nickel. Perhaps that explains why Faradion is able to achieve higher energy density than CATL?