Did Jumbo-Visma Stab Sepp Kuss in the Back? | Vuelta a España 2023 Stage 17 | THEMOVE+
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- Опубликовано: 26 сен 2024
- Spencer and Johan break down Jumbo-Visma’s decision to put their own race leader, Sepp Kuss, under pressure on the hardest climb of the race, L'Angliru, with a hard pace from Primož Roglič, which threatened to pull Jonas Vingegaard into the race lead. They debate if this was the right or wrong decision, if Kuss can hold onto the race lead on tomorrow’s difficult stage, and try to under what is going on inside the Jumbo-Visma team.
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Johan and Spencer: I'm so appreciate of you taking the time to do these podcasts. We have so little cycling analysis in the US, it's fantastic that we have the opportunity to listen to the two of you analyze these races. Many thanks, gentlemen!!
They've quickly become my favorite cycling commentary duo. I love every show they've produced so far.
Chris Horner does an excellent job of breaking down the race.
Definitely they’ve taken the Move to another level. I almost can’t listen to Lance’s rambling anymore.
To date, Roglic has 3 grand tour wins. Jonas has 2 grand tour wins. Neither Roglic nor Jonas have ever won a grand tour without Sepp’s help.
Roglic has 4
@@sk8zeromakeorbreak thank you for the correction.
And that’s why he is the highest paid super domestique in the world
And a heap of one week world tour races over the years thanks to Sepp.
@scpython1Amen! Sepp should take the money and run! Screw TJV if this is the thanks they give him! A slap in the face by the ultimate selfish bastards, Primus and Jonas!
At this point in the race the team supports the leader. Kuss is the leader. He deserves some kind of support.
If he wins (and I hope he does)- he will have done it without the help of a “Kuss”. That would make him a legend.
Kuss is not the leader, he is a domestique. The team wants to race for the red jersey; let them. Kuss doesn't want your pity or your charity. He is not a weakling like his fans.
Kuss is or isn't supposed to help Kuss?
How fast they forget
when landa "dropped" from and was asked to ease up instead of winning the stage, everyone cried "free landa".
Kuss is not the leader, he is in the lead, there is a big difference.
The epitome of sportsmanship. Geraint Thomas leading out Cav at the Giro. The opposite. Vingo and Rog dropping Kuss repeatedly at the Vuelta. Boo Jumbo Visma!
Roglic dropping Kuss?
Whobstayed with him on Tourmalet and stage 16? When Vingegard attacked?
He took away 30 sec in all stages to Kuss!while JV 2min!
@@PeroPierson Roglic didn’t stay with him by choice there
IF they attack and cause Sepp to lose, it will turn Jumbo and namely those two from heroes into villains.
Jonas was the jackass.
@@TheWorldisaLIE2 dude have you watched the stage till the end?
I never seen Johan this worked up before, I feel the same
The man's on fire here. One almost sees him sitting at the teamwheel car screaming in the radio ^^
*teamcar wheel
I cant help but imagine other teams are considering making Sepp Kuss an offer to join their team.
He had that oppurnutiy for years, but that means he have to take a pay cut. Jumbo Visma is paying him a lot of money to be a domestique.
They could, but Kuss is not a GC rider. He has way too many bad days and is struggling in the high mountains. It was pretty clear that Jonas was not powering through today and could have easily taken the victory. But he is an excellent helper for sure.
@@michaelbing8991Saying that he’s struggling in the high mountains is laughable. He’s in his third grand tour this year and shown that he’s near the same level of Roglic for long climbs (recall in 2020, Sepp dropped Roglic accidentally on Col de La Loze). Assuming he came into this race with optimal preparation, his performance on the big climbs would be similar to Roglic. Not sure about Vingegaard because he’s a different animal, but I definitely wouldn’t say that struggling to keep up with multiple time grand tour winners is “struggling.”
TP is watching.....but I am sure Kuss has a ''Locked"" contract
@@michaelbing8991 LOL. He is riding his third GT (out of 3) this year. He's struggling to the extent that he prepared only to help these prima donna ballerinas. It's actually impressive how much work he's done on a sustained level all year. He did not prepare this year to be a "GC rider" as the expected winner. Back when Pogacar started ripping up the Vuelta as an unknown I said basically the same thing. If he prepares to win a GC battle he might win a GT or 2. And he's won 2 so far plus started ripping up the classics. The main difference is that Pogacar didn't have to ride for anyone else and prepared to win stages. Kuss does all the same kind of work in order to create launchpads for the "calculating" designated GC leaders.
This will be a PR disaster for Jumbo and which ever GC leader decides to beat Kuss. Roglic and Jonas will destroy their reputations if they beat Sepp.
100000% true. I already dislike them, which I didn't think was possible.
Already lost a lot of respect for Jonas. No reason he needed to ride along with Roglic today. Hope Pogacar destroys Jonas next year in the Tour.
Jumbo - can’t route for them , Jonas not a nice teammate- the other guy is not far behind in being unpopular; Sepp received no support as a leader at all, the two “leaders” should say we here to win even if teammate is in lead , at least hinault said the race is not publicly - karma catches up very quickly
It will be interesting to see who is still there next year.
Agree I am no longer a TJV fan.
The way Roglic and Vingo are treating Sepp, I’d expect Sepp to get a nice offer from whatever team Tadej ends up on next year.
Now that would be exciting!
Tadej and Sepp would be quite the the duo.
If he doesn't win then Jumbo are done. The glue of this winning machine is the likes of Sepp. If Sepp doesn't win Jumbo Visma are fcukced and will be broken up.
That would be amazing...
Yep...I was a huge Roglic and JV fan...NOT ANYMORE! I'm rooting for Pog next year!
I think it's interesting to note that Kuss probably would've lost the lead in the tour, if it had not been for Landa, being in the right position to end up, basically pacing him up the last 2 km. Vingegaard should've been doing what Mikel Landa did. Really no reason for him not to.
It wouldn't have changed the order of the stage.
It wouldn't have changed the order of the GC,
and it would've looked fair and supportive of Kuss.
Landa was Kuss's best friend on his birthday - while his teammates left him.
Regardless, this JV has the chance to have the greatest season and marketing opportunity a cycling team may have ever had -and they are completely ruining it.
Well, in that case. Jonas will just make it look like a bad day for him tomorrow, and Sepp will have the jersey back!
yup and IF they ruin it hopefully the winner and the team reward Kuss with very large bonuses. Even Lance Armstrong split the prize money between his teammates
he also split the responsibility for drug smuggling
@@TheWorldisaLIE2
No, the strongest rider should win the Jersey, not the weakest rider. It is extremely selfish of you to demand the weakest rider should win for free without competition. Luckily, Sepp Kuss KNOWS they have to race for it. His fans are unfortunately not as mature.
@@HolgerDanske874 wrong, you don’t know the sport or sportsmanship better than John who was a pro tour rider and a pro tour director. And they’re all on the SAME team, so there is no need to attack your own teammate if he is going to win. As long as someone from a different team does not win. this is a TEAM sport that many imbeciles like yourself tend to forget.
Today's stage and later interviews from Vingegard and Roglic remind me when Hinault and Koechli toyed with Lemond; they all played to the cameras but on the road did what they did. Inddeed Roglic could've gone for the stage victory but Jonas could've stayed pacing Kuss, well he benefited the most and declared to the Danish media that Kuss hopes he can keep those 8secs. Unbeliveable the circus Jonas and Primoz played today.
Why would Vingegaard let go of Roglic? This isn't charity. You want Kuss to win even though he is only the 3rd best rider i the team? You're extremely selfish, luckily Kuss isn't weak like his fans. He knows they have to race for the win. This is not charity, this is elite sport.
@@HolgerDanske874 What about support the leader jersey? That aint charity to me. If cycling was about the sole stronger rider you wouldnt have teams, teams like the ones Kuss has been party and great effor to some of Roglic and Vingegard victories.
yup backstabbing his super climbing domestique. Kuss is the best climbing pace guy in the world and helped him win two tours and will help him again in 2024. This is what greed does to people.
@@csarcpab What about supporting your boss and the leader of the team? Which is Vingegaard. Kuss is a domestique. He should be riding for Vingegaard which he gets paid a lot of money for. Jumbo Visma as a team even agreed on racing for the Vuelta win. Kuss agreed on it, he doesn't want charity. Then why are you here complaining? THAT is extremely selfish.
@@TheWorldisaLIE2 That is his job. Roglic, NVH, Van Baarle, Kelderman, Van Aert, Laport, Benoot and Kruijswijk were also part of the team. Greed is expecting to get gifted a Grand Tour victory by your boss. Are you really that greedy and selfish?
Spencer misrepresents the stage when he talks of Jonas's decision to chase Roglic down. That's not how the climb played out. Roglic paced away first with no answer from the GC group and the first rider to bridge to him was Sepp Kuss and not Jonas. Jonas only bridged to Roglic once Kuss had already done it, and then he kept Roglic's wheel from then on. Then you can argue everything from then on, but it is simply untrue that Jonas went chasing Roglic without Kuss and that's not an unimportant detail.
BS we all saw Jonas' true colors.
That interpretation doesn't really improve matters for Kuss. It implies Jonas piggybacked off Sepp to get back to Roglic, thereby making Jonas's refusal to wait seem even worse.
16. etape Jonas goes, Roglič stays with Sepp, ...... 17. etape...? This Vuelta is shot in Knee for Jonas and JV.... Hope that Roglič and Kuss they will go away....
Im 100 per cent with the perpective of Mister Brunyel,(sorry if i wright your name bad) in a team like Jumbo,that stage in Angliru won by Primoz was not nice,and did worst to the team in terms of fans than the victory itself,Seep is a super nice kid,super educated,fantastic rider and always prepared to help others,that was a very bad decision,from the team director?from Primoz?,and Jonas?
Sepp is the consummate gentleman and team player. No matter how frustrated he may be by the events the past few stages he won’t say it. It’s unfortunate his own team has put him through the wringer like this, especially with the work he has put in for Primoz & Jonas. I hope Sepp has it in his legs and his heart to take control tomorrow no matter what they do.
For Krist Sakes...you Americans are pathetic...gentleman??? This is bike racing in Europe...it is the same as Pro Boxing...people die dude...nice guys finish last...Killers win
Can you imagine if Kuss had crashed on that cattle grate at the end of this stage while he was rushing to the finish line to protect his lead from his own teammates? TJV had no reason to ride frantically; they had every reason to ride conservatively. All three of them have huge time gaps on 4th considering the remaining stages. The directors on TJV need to step up and reign in this behavior if their objective is for their team to win safely.
Wout needs to make the call. “If you two don’t look after Sepp, I get it, I won’t look after you!”
The difference is that Sepp is paid to look after the others. Roglic and Jonas are the captains in their team. Did you ever see Lance looking after one of his domestiques?
@@markus539 horrible attitudes.
“Sepp your paid to…”
“Jonas and Roglic are “captains””
“Did you see Lance look after domestiques…”
Roglic and Jonas should consider their style of leadership. And maybe learn from some of Lances worst traits.
Food for thought here: Out of the three (3) Grand Tours, the Vuelta clearly speaks to Sepp the most because he lives with a Spanish family in Spain and trains there. What IF all of the GC Spanish riders (e.g., Landa, Ayuso) on competing teams come out tomorrow and race for Sepp, pacing and helping him maintain the Red Jersey (since none of his own "teammates" appear to give a flying ass)? THAT would be a sight to behold in this Vuelta. Indeed, one can argue that Landa already did just that during today's stage by clearly letting Sepp finish third (3d) with the time bonus to keep the lead. The riders on the other teams are not stupid. They know, recognize, and appreciate what's happening within Jumbo-Visma. Tomorrow will certainly be interesting, that is fo' sho'.
Interesting take. Perhaps worth noting that three European Grand Tours are in countries where their language is literally Romantic
LOL .... Spanish riders..... and working together, and that in the same sentence.... 🤣 Guys like Landa, Mas, Ayuso and Soler can't even work together against Jumbo-Visma.
Yeah, what if three little pigs flew down from the sky and gave everyone candy apples too
Arguably, Landa already saved Kuss's maillot rojo today. ^^
(rewatched the whole drama in slomo in the hope of catching a glimpse of an exchange between those two. None seen.)
Yes interesting that this could be at the same time an incredible show of Jumbo strength but also the beginning of their downfall. Do you think Sepp goes 100% for either of these guys in the future….
I began following Jumbo Visma when Sepp joined the team. I followed the other riders because of the connection with Sepp. There are so few elite riders from the US on the world tour, so teams that hire American riders grab my attention. Sepp has been the picture of a professional and a remarkable ironman during his tenure at JV. If the team allows Primos and Jonah to attack again with no other gain to the team other than thier personal glory, I and probably many US fans will look to other teams to support.
Same
I errantly thought JV had more class than TP. Thats over
Me too.
I agree.
Right on brother👍
I can understand Primoz going ahead, in order to put the podium sweep beyond question. But Jonas going with him was very telling.
Jonas is at his peak now, he might not want to ride the vuelta much in the future, he might want to add a giro to his palmares and complete the hattrick, and continue to focus on the tour de france. I remember a couple of years ago people were saying Pogacar was the best grand tour racer of all time and is going to break all the records, and 2 years before that people were saying the same about Bernal; in the last 2 years Pog has won a total of 0 grand tours. If he is to become a legend of the sport, of stage races,Jonas needs to make the most of his peak because you never know...
so you are telling that his is selfish....@@viagetty2743
‘The Jumbo Visma sh#t show’… oh so true from Johan… if they attack him tomorrow my support for Jonas and Primoz is gone
The Shit-show where they are 1, 2, and 3 in the strongest GC-grand tour of the year!(apart form Pogman, the big ones are all there)
Jonas is clearly by far the strongest rider, but he says in interviews, that he hopes Sepp wins! The TJV-DS said postrace, that they would have a meeting this evening, to talk about the future tactics.
As a dane, and i've heard most danes wants Sepp to win. Danes loves Sepp, he is a class act domestique, i think if anybody puts a stick in the wheel of anyone, it'll come from Roglic, i really think 100% that Jonas want's Sepp to win!
They already lost my support after today.
And mine would have gone up. So that even outs. I only want to see the best rider on top. The best guy should win.
Johan with the emphatic rebuke of JV today is exactly what the cycling world needs
I'm done with pulling for Roglic and Vingegard. I get it "no gifts" but pacing Sepp would have been the right thing to do. Sepp has been selfless and given up wins to get those two riders their wins. I will pull for Sepp to do his own thing and I won't fault him if he pisses off the primadonnas. If Sepp can't win I'm pulling for Pogacar or anybody else. Congratulations to Sepp and may you have a Happy birthday!
💯 agree. No one likes selfish super stars. To be clear, Primoz and Vinny are acting like such jackasses. The director of Jumbo is not directing the team to support the red jersey leader and thus the team looks like a bush league shit show right now.
If Vinny doesn’t support Sepp the next few days, the team will lose their respect and probably Sepp to a team that respects what he has done for Jumbo. At the very least, the director at the Vuelta should be held accountable for appearing to be asleep at the wheel
He wasn't selfless. He did what he was paid for. Sepp did get the lead in the first place by attacking his captains :)
@@wyomingar Of course, Americans are so fake and if they didn't have double standards they wouldn't have any at all!
This is turning into a huge PR disaster for TJV. Just take a look at the thousands of messages on social media, no one cares that Roglic won today, everyone is disgusted with how they treated Sepp Kuss, their most loyal team member today and basically stabbed him in the back. I still can't believe what I've seen today. JV already got a ,,"gift" of 1.5 minutes in 2 stages, he should have stayed with the red jersey today
Nobody cares about the new zoomer Netflix fan generation complaining on social media. They will be gone soon anyway.
Excellent commentary by Johan. I’ve been following professional cycling for 34 years and Johan said what legit cycling fans are thinking about the team tactics. I’m very happy to hear his opinions with all his experience in the sport. Thank you!
Johan nailed it! You never leave the Red Jersey behind !
This may be the unraveling of the Team . If we are thinking it imagine how this is being perceived with in the Team.
I’m calling it now , Kuss will leave JV
The red jersey was not in danger. The 3 guys at the front were all from Jumbo Visma. It is only fair they get to ride - let the strongest rider win. Expecting to be gifted a Grand Tour victory is extremely selfish of you.
@@HolgerDanske874 So with your logic what is PR or JV was in Red, would it be acceptable for Kuss to attack them !?
100%. If I am Sepp I leave JV as soon as possible. I have my agent on the phone with Ineos today. Jonas leaving Sepp to chase Primoz is the height of complete BS. That would never happen in Jonas was in Red. Never, ever would Sepp ride like that to spite Jonas. No way. Therefore, he takes his services elsewhere. That’s it.
@@slayermtb_7848 nope. u support the leader if hes capable of winning it. sepp is more then capable. u dont attack your teammate for self glory. it’s classless. if jonas or roglic end up winning it’ll be more of a stain on their career than an accomplishment.
@@lnsmanning It seems like you do not understand the dynamics in cycling. Sepp Kuss is hired as a domestique, Vingegaard is the leader of the team. The strongest rider of the team. You're expecting Sepp Kuss should be handed a free win of a Grand Tour for some reason. That is extremely selfish and greedy of you. Let them race for it.
Somehow this kind of reminds me of back when Lemond and Hinault were on the same team during the Tour back in the mid-80's.
Spencer and Johan. The absolute best show that you guys have done Awesome.
Reminds me of Greg LeMond’s first TDF win. Fought Hinnault all the way to Paris and La Vie Clare was split in support of each.
Yes, Jumbo Visma DID stab Sepp Kuss in the back.
It's a team. Period. NO ONE wins alone. Support the red jersey TJV!
Yesterday I was shopping for Jumbo Visma Swag. After this stage I said Fuhgehedaboutit!
This “team” is showing their true colors and I’m not wearing them.
I’ve been waiting for this commentary!
If financial bonuses for winning are on the minds of Jonas and Primoz-as Johan has suggested previously-then team sponsors/management should guarantee them the money for sweeping the podium, and insist on supporting Sepp's GC for the public relations benefit and overall optics, not to mention Sepp's incredible loyalty over the years.
I’m usually in agreement with Jumbo’s tactics but now I don’t understand what they’re doing. Sepp is too nice of a guy to rock the boat and I feel now they’re taking advantage of it. After two weeks in the red jersey Sepp is no longer a domestique and is a GC guy. Sepp would never do this to Jonas or Primoz if the jersey were on the other rider. Boo Jumbo.
Would love to see Sepp riding for Pogacar next year if not outright leading his own team. We will see what happens tomorrow.
I agree with all the comments regarding how crappy TJV has been to Kuss, but if you really want to hit TJV where it hurts start writing their sponsors with how disgusted you are with the team. You can start with Cervelo!
I'd never buy a Creak-Velo in the first place lol
@@BoxCarBoy12 Me neither, but Cervelo doesn't know that : )))
Imagine the headlines if Jonas and Primoz had paced Sepp to the line yesterday, and ALL THREE of them had crossed the finish line TOGETHER! Side by side by side! What a fantastic moment that could have been. Instead, we are all discussing why Sepp had to do the last 2 kilometers alone. Sad.
Agree 👍 it was a great moment... until they messed it up 🤕
Then Landa would have taken the stage. Because Kuss was not alone remember?
- He was being paced by Landa.
@@mrmjunhy...Landa might have contended for the stage win, or he may have been dropped. He would need to pass all 3 JV riders to win, and I don't think that would have happened, but we will never know.
Well, the moment did FINALLY happen, although it was at the end of stage 20 instead of the end of stage 17, but it was a heart-warming scene. I think all 3 riders were united for the first time since Sepp took the red jersey. It was good to see.
I never thought there would be a scenario where people wouldn't care if a spectator took out a rider, but here we are! If this happened to Roglic or Vingegaard while attacking Sepp in future stages, most of us would just say "karma"!
I would! 😉
Ok I love this format with Spencer and Johan. Very insightful and the Spencer - Johan dynamic works really well IMO. But please can we get some help for Spencer. Bro looks like he just rolled out of bed and broadcasting from his childhood bedroom.
He's keeping it real.
You know what would have been the true test? If Kuss had a mechanical. I guarantee you they would have left him. They BOTH owe Kuss and should basically just ride next to him at all times.
I didn’t mind Roglic attack. I believe the plan from the start was for him to go and win the stage just like it was for yesterday. However, I didn’t like that Jonás looked back and let Kuss go as if he was a rival. He should’ve stayed with Kuss and let Roglic go up the road because he was further back on GC.
Idk, it was bittersweet for me. Huge huge roglic fan but didn’t like sepp risking it to the line like that.
I feel the same. I’m a huge Jumbo fan from Colorado I think this is the most conflicted I’ve ever felt as a fan of any sporting event
LOL! Roglic attacked the red jersey and somehow it is Jonas' fault for following the wheel? You're delusional. He also attacked Kuss yesterday but couldn't get rid of Ayuso and Mas.
Also didn't mind the Roglic attack at first, but why did Roglic feel the need to push so hard after they dropped Landa? If he had slowed the pace a bit, they might have gotten over the finish together, all three.
Jonas gave an interview this morning, saying that he was unsure about what to do when Kuss dropped. The team was silent, so he ended up following Roglic's wheel - because he could (as he is obviously the strongest rider in this final week).
@@TheJazzDane they have the experience to know what to do. Not hard to stick with your race leader. Especially when you’re only 29 seconds behind.
@@nichelasgarcia2676 It's hard if the team policy doesn't state that you have a race leader. And Jonas clearly didn't prefer Primoz to finish above him or Kuss.
The fact sepp apologises to landis for jumping him for bonus seconds shows the class of the guy! Personally I’m Scottish but will be rooting for sepp ❤️🏴
Plot twist: Primoz wanted it and attacked. Jonas went with him to regulate and let him know he’ll take it away from him if he wants, in defense of Sepp
Johan's insight is spot-on. The only threat to Sepp bringing home the red jersey comes from his own teammates who want to win themselves. Sepp Kuss staying alive because of Mikel Landa, for goodness sakes. Where is the JVT management at this time?
If Jonas did go for the overall win today, he could easily had done it (i´m sure about that). That brings me to the fact that, both Jonas, Seb, Primus and the team, has all along (since Seb got in red), said that they wan´t for Seb to win. The race itself, has favored Jumbo Visma, and they saw that and wen´t whit it. That´s why they now are in a situation, were they can decide for themself, who´s gonna win the Vuelta. Jonas had said, many times to Danish Televison (TV2), that he really means it, when he say he wanna see Seb K. win. The situation they are in now, after today´s stage, is exactly where they hoped to be, and now (finger crossed), thay have the ability to give this win to Seb, and they will (if nothing get´s in the way). We will not see Jonas attack Seb, unless Seb tell´s him to do, if a situation should occur? All the negative things said about Jonas and the team, the last couple of days, shows more ignorance and not so much knowledge, of what this team is about, and what they have been loud about for weeks now. It´s not that complicated for me....when u have a moment in cykling like this, and a team like this, within it´s context of the 2023 season, u can do these things. It´s rarely seen (maybe never before?), and in fact, i think we all should sit down and nejoy this moment in cycling. I do 4 sure. Cheers from Denmark.
OMG. I think you are like a breath of fresh air. The race isn't over and everyone is throwing daggers. I'm a big Jumbo fan and I love and respect them all and I always say two things: patience and trust the process. Thank you for your cool head.
Also danish here :) - From what Jonas said (and did not say) most danes belive that Jonas do want Kuss to win…. but if Kuss falls back (has a bad day) Jonas won’t give the overall victory to Rogliz. If Jonas wanted to win he could have today. When rogliz went ahead today, it was Kuss who closed the gap first, then Jonas.
Yes, it's tactics to secure a bigger gap and ensure a GC podium sweep. Whoever is on the top has yet to be determined, but they know they want all three positions to be JV
Let's hope Kuss picks up a nice GC contract with a team that appreciates him. Lost a ton of respect for Roglic and Vingegaard today.
Yes, then he will definitely never win a GT and also get paid less. He is only in this position because he is at Jumbo Visma and be cause superior riders like Vingegaard let him have the time.
@@HolgerDanske874 ...Vingegaard is a flash in the pan. Keep on dreaming.
Perfect day from Jumbo-Visma !! When they started this morning the gap between Kuss and the first none Jumbo-Visma rider was only 2min33sec, and now at the end of the day this gap has become 4min00sec. On top of that the gap between the last of the three Jumbo-Visma riders and Ayuso has also become bigger.
Thus Vingegaard and Roglic do now both have two stages, from which two on a epic climb (Tourmalet and Angliru). And besides that you still have Kuss in the red jersey ❣
Everything else that some people come up with on some podcasts is nicely made up, but in the end none of the gentlemen has insight into the Jumbo-Visma kitchen, so they have no idea what the mutual agreements are.
The situation is that both Roglic and Vingegaard now have no need to attack anymore, after all, the gap on the competition is big enough. This was a situation that we did not have before the ride to Angliru, so in all respects Kuss is in a better position than this morning. IMHO ✌
Spot on, 100% they were going for the KOM Roglic has the second fastest time on the angliriu . Kuss the fourth. Roglic & Jonas have now two stages and epic ones and were increasing the gap from the third in GC to fourth . They are insuring the 1-2-3 in GC. All this media hype is BS. Bet you Roglic and Jonas protect Kuss from now on. It’s tactics it’s a chess game. All this hype it’s just over the top. Kuss is still in red!
They achieve the same thing without dropping Sepp Kuss. Your theory is BS.
Hahaha pr director of jumbo visma has entered the chat or you forgot the snark tag. This is the final week with only one more dangerous stage. No advantage in padding the lead. And to many of us fans this just looks bad. Really it looks bad enough already that 3 guys from the same team are going to podium at a gt. Come on man.
Totally agree. This is YouTubing at it's worst. Spencer even invents stuff like Jonas is not liked in France and that he's a robotic rider. WTF??? This is pure fiction. I thought this guy was a cycling analyst.
Well said. At the end the results count. And Kuss will now be given the win as announced by Vingegaard yesterday.
IT almost feels like Hinault/Lemond when Hinault said he would work for Lemond and then "was teaching him to fight" for the win.....
Sepp, phenomenal rider and all round nice guy. Whole world is behind him. TF for Landa on this stage. Fingers crossed for Kuss. In their position they didn't need comms. They know what they should be doing especially as their GC positions aren't threatened. If Kuss doesn't win overall Roglic and vingegaards popularity will plummet.
5:32 I think Spencer was about to refer to the last time they did this exact climb in the Vuelta when Sepp had a chance at the stage win and Roglic was getting dropped. Sepp sat up and dragged Roglic to the finish to limit his losses.
Exactly
Like the 1986 Tour de France: Hinault is supposed to work for Lemond, who had helped Hinault win the '85 TdF. But instead of helping Lemond, Hinault ends up attacking him for the entire TdF. Despite Hinault's attacks, Lemond wins the '86 TdF. Afterwards, Hinault says he raced like he did to "help" Lemond toughen up.
I wonder what Lance would do if his mountain domestique happened to be in Kuss's situation leading a grand tour late in the game. Would Lance ride for his right hand man or go for the win? I think the latter scenario is most likely. Unfortunately for Kuss fans, both Roglic and Vingegaard are designated leaders like Lance and they were both stronger than Sepp today. Let's hope that they sort it out tonight and preserve the status quo tomorrow.
Meh I think LA during his TDF dominance era only cared about the Tour. Other races weren't important.
Exactly.
I personally think Jonas could’ve won today but he stayed behind Roglic to not take red. If his 2 options are him win or Roglic win he’ll take himself. I don’t think he wanted to pull those 2 today and tomorrow while Roglic attacks. At least that’s my hope by seeing what the 3 said after the race.
Jonas could have stayed with Sepp. All BS
@@Gsp_in_NYCshould have*
@@michaelseman9526 this team and those two have a blind spot to the implications of this cock up that are staggering
There is no way he did stay behind. He definitely could not predict that Landa would draft Kuss up. He could have won the jersey. It was a narrow and twisty finish. Jonas simply did not risk it more because Roglic is better in the sprint. The only logical explanation of what Jonas did is that he wanted to win or he wanted to "witness the moment" of Roglic winning.
@@Peter-hz3vs the only logical explanation is what Jonah said--there is no one in charge. This takes a certain amount of knowledge not only of cycling tactics---but social norms. I was not a pro cyclist, but have worked in challenging environments worldwide---in business and the miliary. you don't buddy-fuck your teammate, period. they did this.
You tell them Johan! Jonas and Primoz do not understand the game theory here! They are focused so much on winning this game they have forgotten about all the games to come. By taking the jersey from Kuss they remove every incentive for him to be on Jumbo and work for them in future races. I think Jonas is especially at fault given he is much younger then Primoz and has a long career ahead of him.
Thanks for speaking up, Johan.
I think Primoz and Jonas have been talking to Mark Solar about how to help team mates
You can see Johan’s passion coming through in his analysis, keep up with the great work
How much time would Roglic lost at this year Bondone stage if Kuss didn’t brought him on his wheel ? Probably he had lost the Giro at Bondone! Even in a high performance professional sport like pro cycling there is one thing more important than winning, how we win it! Both, Jonas and Roglic and the DS should be given a lesson on concepts like gratitude and respect!! From now on Kuss is my favourite rider besides Almeida!
Gentlemen, thanks so much for the + segments. It makes watching the grand tours so much more enjoyable when you share your insight and comments.
Judas (formerly Jonas) NEVER should have left his race leading teammate. Primoz should not have attacked, but he did not abandon & isolate Kuss yesterday.
If Sepp doesn’t win The GC this year - Judas’ reputation will NEVER recover.
If they attack Sepp, I think he says good luck in the Tour next year, I’m out.
Nice name you found there. But what has he done to his team mate? So far no damage has been done. Aren't you a little premature in your judgement? Maybe you are immature, because you believe in this crazy man above!
Excellent commentary by Johan and Spencer! If Primoz or Jonas attack Sepp tomorrow, I would lose faith in the state of "team" road racing in 2023. Very disappointing.
Already disappointed big time after today.
Sepp Kuss is a class act, and the worlds best mountain-domestique! I haven't heard any dane that want's Jonas to do anything that isn't in the spirit of cycling. The 3 TJV-riders now have a 4 minute gap to Ayuso in 4th pos. So if Sepp can hang on the main favorites I and all of Denmark(afaik) are rooting for him to win!
Where is the “sorry Primoz, sorry Jonas” “We were wrong and jumped to conclusions”
Because as of post-race yesterday they didn't care. The response from the cycling fans is what cooled their jets.
Jonas and Primoz both have the same cold-blooded killer instinct to win characteristic of many champions, which overrides any sense of gratitude they may feel towards Kuss. It's hard to shut that off. We all know what Lance would have done.
Totally agree. This is professional sports. These are winners. I know what I would have done in that position.
Johan - would you have told Lance to let George win TdF if he was leading? George was the most loyal teammate back then.
Modern cycling has no humanism. They forgot Lance, Froome, Sagan, Sastre...
Seeing what happening in the Vuelta's Jimbo is betrayal 101.
Hey I got betrayed and cheated with my 15 yr relationship with my lady. She dropped me , I walked away destroyed my life my race...I feel it with Sepp.
Something like this happened in the 1985 edition of the TDF between Hinault and Lemond. They were teammates at La Vie Claire and Lemond was in yellow until Hinault attacked him in the mountain stages. During media interview, The Badger declared that "it's not over until it's over".....Hinault's motive was to snatch a record 6th TDF win but Lemond never concedes and won his 1st ever TDF enroute to Paris.
Couldn’t agree more with all the points made in this video, thank you for the insights, gents!
Isn’t it pretty clear that Jonas is not aiming to take the red from Sepp, but rather making sure Primoz doesn’t win in case Sepp cracks? (Primoz is clearly being competitive)
At least that’s the impression I get.
Then he should have waited for Sepp. Jonas thought about it for half a second and decided not to wait and got with Primoz. Total shit move.
@@davidfrye7713 He said himself that he was unsure about the decision. It's clear that he was caught in two minds. In my opinion Roglic's decision to go full steam even after they dropped Landa was a way shittier move.
Love your comments Johann.. gratitude goes a long way..
If Sepp is weaker than his two teammates right now, it's probably because he turned himself inside out so they could win the Giro and the Tour earlier this season! He's winning the Vuelta without the help of Sepp Kuss! So forget all of this BS about "no gifts" in cycling.
I don't think Jumbo is prepared to the backlash on social media when one of his team mates takes red off him.
Johan nailed it. If Roglic and Vengegaard attack the "Red Jersey" tomorrow, it would be a sorry ass team for Jumbo Visma.
Americans whining. Kuss is clearly not the strongest rider and they want him to have a GT as a present because he is a nice guy. It's professional sports
It’s supposed to be a team sport. What happened today were not the actions of a team. Roglic and Vingo should not have dropped Kuss. It’s not complicated. But Jonas wants to win it all and so does Roglic. They don’t care about anybody but themselves. Kuss turned himself inside out for these two and that’s how they pay him back, by stabbing him in the back? Disgraceful.
Jonas gifted the tour '22 stage 20 to Wout. Not sure he would have done that, if he was the character that you describe him to be.
Jonas wants Kuss to win but doesn't want to lose it to Roglic. That why it's akward. If Roglic didn't go full-speed after they dropped Landa yesterday, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Johan nails it, as usual. If JV don't support Kuss today, then all that will be remembered from the 2023 Vuelta is treachery.
Jonas would have been in red, if he really wanted it. Instead he let up today, because he doesn't really want to take the jersey from Sepp. He will probably stay with him tomorrow. It's an understandable PR decision, but it's a freaking shame for the sporting integrity. And it's totally backwards that you advocate for it. Ridiculous!
There is no team advantage in prioritizing one guy over the other, so obviously the right thing to do is to let the best man win. Unfortunately this probably won't be the case.
What it looks like to me is Jumbo-Visma just agreed to let Sepp Kuss race to win the Vuelta without any guarantees of a full team dedication to help Sepp win the overall. If you look at it that way, it is a very big opportunity for Sepp and is much more generous then Sepp just working again as a super domestic. He has expressed in interviews a number of times that he is learning a lot during this race, and for such a seasoned veteran racer to say this, it means a lot as well. AND -- Sepp will have full rights to the book he will write about what is happening behind Jumbo-Visma closed doors!!!! Can't wait to read about it.
Johan is so right on this...Jumbo are shooting themselves in the foot over this ...Sean Kelly felt the same ...old school tell it how it is
Jumbo as a team would never be in this situation today if Kuss had not gone in that breakway and one. This is what he gets from his team for appreciation...a slap in the face.
A lot of fans are going to turn against JV soon. This is a PR nightmare for the Vingegaard and Roglic and the team.
Johan, you hit the nail on the head, NO leadership on the team. That is the biggest problem. This team will not be the same next year
Jonas could have won the stage, but didn't go for it. On such a steep climb, being pulled doesn't really work. You can either follow or not. Also, it's like most people have forgotten how Sepp gained all the time to begin with. He got in an absurdly huge breakaway with several of the gigantic motors of Jumbo-Visma, and only gained so much time, because none of the other teams were strong enough to pull in the breakaway, while the TJV guys were giving it all in the breakaway in front. Lastly, I do not agree, that Kuss was a great help for Jonas, in this year's Tour (2023). He dropped off way too early in the decisive moments. In this year's Giro he was great, and in the Tour last year, he was amazing, but TDF 2023, no.
I like the spicy Johan! Hopefully someone on Jumbo heard this.
Can we respect how unique this position is rather than create hate? Evenepoel was supposed to be a contender... UAE was supposed to not ride as 8 individuals... Jonas wasn't supposed to be sick the first week... Roglic was supposed to be captain alone... Kuss was a helper... Jonas was supposed to gain 10 seconds Yesterday... So many factors, and we are judging three riders at the top of a sport due to winning mentality, with heartbeats of 150+ going up the most challenging climb in cycling on their ability to not make perfect decisions when the rest of us can't even decide what is the right decision to be made? GC Kuss is my favorite... but this hate train is too much when it should be a celebration.
The "right" decision is to RESPECT the leader's jersey! ALWAYS! Teammates DO NOT ATTACK other teammates. It's not complicated, but this team cannot understand this very simple concept. So, yeah,..."hate" is warranted and justified in this case. Primoz and Jonas were wrong for not helping to pace Sepp up the final kilometers today. Plain and simple. They were WRONG.
@@karma4U2 might be good with some fresh air or a bike ride. Unreasonable amount of hate for completely novel situation.
@@portfolioteam319 ..."Unreasonable" hate is relative in this case, but you are entitled to your own opinion, of course. These are professional riders, and the situation should not be a "novel" one for them. There is more racing yet to be completed, so lets wait see how it all plays out. Primoz and Jonas may just redeem themselves.
Johan we love you. Your perspective is always genius. I will always keep coming back for more. Really support all you guys. Spencer you’re awesome. I wish WEDU would blow up so you guys could put more money into it and we get more Lance and George as well. Just love all you guys and very thankful for what you do 👏
If Sepp does not win, he should start talking to UAE. He can support Pogachar in TDF, and be the leader in the Giro or Vuelta
Sure Pogacar is always giving his domestiques a chnce!
Disgusting behavior today, after everything he's done for them, and it's the guys birthday as well. They will be remembered for this.
I only caught the end of the Spanish conversation they were having and it was about the wounds in their faces, they both had crashes this year Kuss (Tour) and Contador (I think it was a race in China)
I'm sceptical about what Bruyneel says.
In US Postal days, a luxury domestique even a legendary one like Kuss, would've never in my eyes would've been awarded the GC by Armstrong. He was the clear absolute leader of that team. Obviously he only competed in the Tour, but even if he had gone for other grand tours. I find it totally unlikely US Postal and Bruyneel would've come up with a plan that involves supporting your domestique rather than the lead riders. Obviously Armstrong is a different character and everything was build around him. But Roglic could for example win his 4th Vuelta, which means he would be the co-record holder for most wins. Which opens the door for him to win it a record 5th. While Vingegaard with the win could get all three the grand tours behind his name.
BOOOM!!!
Imagine Johan going to Lance after two tour wins, "uh Lance, Roberto Heras is in the lead by a minute, so you ride for him now"!! Yeah right Johan!!!
The main issue has been created by poor management. No "leader" was clearly established BEFORE the race began. US Postal always knew who their leader was. No doubts about it. Ever. Jumbo Visma cannot allow 2 top GC contenders to ride in the same race. As the old football saying goes,...if you have 2 great quarterbacks on 1 team, you have none. Then,...you can never allow a domestique to put so much time on his GC leader, or leaders in this case, during an early stage. That was just a bone-head call. They should have ordered Sepp back to the peleton when that situation developed. What were they thinking?! Jumbo Visma took a big giant sh!t on the sidewalk, and then they stepped in it. Now, they have to deal with the smell.
@@karma4U2 It's their goal as a team to complete the thrilogy, they rightly anticipated adding Vingegaard into the mix that it would increase their chances of succeeding. Now with hind-sight knowledge we can say that they don't needed Vingegaard, as Roglic would've been able to finish the job likely without the Dane. But who knows had he crashed or Evenepoel put two minutes into him early. I agree that they probably should've said from the start "Kuss we let you have the jersey, but unless both of the GC leaders of our team lose heavy minutes with you being the strongest. You're not winning la Vuelta". Hard to know that what has been said
The best guy always wins...true, but we have to remember that the best guy also has the best domestique!
If either Primoz or Jonas attacks Sepp, then Jumbo will never be the same. And Sepp will leave Jumbo.
Both CVW and Bob Roll said that sepp should leave the team as soon as possible
I totally agree with Sean, Dan and Adam from GCN The Breakaway, they hit it on the nail. There's 3 problems with Kuss winning the Vuelta; Roglic, Vingegaard and Grischa Niermann. Where is the respect for Kuss, he's helped Roglic and Vingegaard endlessly and and they don't want to help him win the Vuelta. They can help him if they wanted to. Kuss has this opportunity now to win a Grand Tour, will he have that chance again. Roglic is the worst saying "man oh man" he's there to win the race, but you selfish such and such, I don't trust you. Sepp has helped you many times and this is the thanks he gets. Vingegaard said he wants Sepp to win then why doesn't he support him. Yeah I know sports are cut throat but if there is no loyalty with teammates then the team collapses. Kuss should look for another team that would appreciate him more. I sure hope they let Sepp Kuss win, it would show the respect and boost the Jumbo Visma marketing value as a decent team. Oh by the way, at-a-boy Landa.
Sepp knows those guys would attack him. He said as much during the rest day. I think this whole thing is really between Roglic and Jonas and the Sepp is left out in the cold. Jumbo knows the title is locked up, but they dont want to tick off guys with the big egos....old school cycling etiquette does not exist on this team.
The issue is that Roglic is pissed off that Jonas was selected for la Vuelta, Jonas should have let Roglic win the stage and stayed with Kuss as Roglic did on the stages Jonas won.
Jumbo visma making zero fans
Here for the sanity. So many newbie cycling fans think this is fine. No understanding of respect for the jersey, respect for the sport. No understanding of how management and DS are supposed to do their jobs.
“No gifts” is meant for your opponents, not your teammates. ESPECIALLY when they’re protecting a jersey. It’s rather disgusting and disrespectful to a sport with such a long beautiful history.
Thank you guys for having the guts to tell it how it is , everyone else is afraid to say anything thank you 👍👍👍👋
I would love to see Sepp light them up tomorrow!
JB saying what 99.9% of cycling fans thinking.
Sepp Kuss: Thanks for the great birthday memories, teammates. 😒