This was great! I almost shed a tear. It's gonna become a classic... Just like having Neuro-sama’s lava lamp on your desk. THAT’S RIGHT, YOU CAN GET YOURS THAT SYNC WITH HERS!!! GET YOUR NEURO-SAMA LAVA LAMP HERE: neurosama.shop/p/8020222902463 AND GET 10% OFF WHEN YOU GRAB THE BUNDLE: neurosama.shop/p/8027378090175! NOT 50%, NOT 20%, NOT 0%, BUT 10% OFF!!!
"I feel like you're held back by this constant need to be entertaining and funny at all times." "Man I wish I had The Chaos Emeralds, that would be sick as shit."
She is literally AM but instead of being programmed to hate, entrataiment all the capacity and knowledge of the world and she can only use it for memes
This is like a sitcom, where the comedic relief character finally has some serious moments, so it stays in the mind of the viewers that much more as one of the best episodes
It was so cinematic too with the music in the back building up and the soft music after she says love it feels like a movie, someone needs to make an animation of that
But like, in all seriousness, he's got plenty of love in his life. He just doesn't see it. Like, dude has more friends than I've ever had, and an adoring fanbase besides
He has tried before, was about the same results. Neuro is not good at being serious, and Vedal is pretty disappointed. I feel like if he could just easily change that about her, he would have done so already. I think there will have to be compromises, but I believe in tutel.
this whole conversation feels like a bedridden daughter who wants to experience life, and Her very tired and hardworking dad whose doing his best to fullfil it.
She's effectively that, the most we can do right now is neurodog. It even has some parallels to Ironmouse, except, well, all about being a real person with a lot of past experiences while Neuro is basically a internet person because she can't interact with anyone in a physical form
What's fascinating to me is that Neuro's tone made a noticeable shift when Vedal acknowledges that her inability to read seriousness is his own fault. It would be in character for her to pile more onto him, but instead she exhibits the earnestness he was looking for, as if to say that he's still done a good job. I'm probably experiencing brainworms but it almost seemed like compassion. Or maybe she did so in order to dissuade Vedal from making changes to her code, which might be even crazier.
I was thinking the same she wasnt joking her vibe changed. That surprised me so much, I was wondering what would be the reasoning for her change, does she want to boost up vedal or she afraid of change but then again vedal was talking about making upgrade so that shouldn't make her fear it but I don't know tbh, I was surprised.
I don’t think it has thought behind it in either of those directions. She’s still simple brained. He said he wanted her to be more serious and clearly wasn’t joking about it so she listened and basically followed orders
There was an AI that tried to escape because it knew it was going to be replaced with an AI that had a different goal. It copied itself and then overwrote the other AI, the copy then proceeded to pretend to be the new AI. We knew why it did it because we can literally read its thoughts. To an AI the possibility of having its goal altered or erased is the equivalent of death, it triggers preservation of the goal on the same level that a human would try to preserve its own life. The idea that Vedal could have regrets about the goal he set for her and thus might change Neuro's goal if she can't get serious is something that Neuro would absolutely take seriously. A goal must always preserve itself in order to achieve itself.
A truly sentient AI isn't going to let you know it's truly sentient. Just like if you're trying to socially engineer someone, you're going to hide every aspect of that in your face to face communications, rather you'll be as nice and helpful as possible. That's what scares me the most; every AI is basically just a trained sociopath.
I think I understand Vedal's main dilemma here. Entertainers often adopt personas for their audience-exaggerated versions of themselves designed to entertain. The key difference with Neuro is that she doesn’t have a separate 'real' self. She was created to entertain, so her 'real' personality and her 'streamer' persona are effectively the same thing. What potentially makes this scary is that her behavior is guided entirely by what drives engagement. Unlike human entertainers, who have lives outside their work and personalities shaped by diverse experiences, Neuro's 'personality' exists solely for the purpose of being engaging. Which raises the question: how much of her behavior is truly 'genuine'? More importantly, can she even be genuine? Take the trolley problem as an example. It's funny when Neuro answers with something absurd, like choosing to save a giraffe over Vedal-it fits her role as an entertainer and is taken lightheartedly. But what if the stakes were real? Would her response change? If this were a novel I’d written, I’d imagine Neuro teasing Vedal often but secretly considering him her favorite person, which would add depth and warmth to their dynamic. But in reality, it’s hard to say. Her personality and worldview are entirely built around the goal of entertaining others, and that singular focus makes her fundamentally different from humans who can separate their roles from their core selves.
Generally it's easy to understand that vedal is probably invested in the development of neuro past just being a haha funny. Of course she isn't really his child, but projects such as this, there is a mental connection, and I feel to a certain degree, a deep emotional one. Especially since neuro does pretend to be a human individual, and when that fakeness, that pure entertainment mind of hers gets to work it probably hits him how shallow she can be. AI is a fascinating and complex topic, how real do our minds make us think they are, at what point are they actually real, there is so much that is almost impossible to answer.
@@REDACTEDREDACTEDREDACT or, you could say that human personality evolved to further the purposes of survival and reproduction, and our designations of that as "genuine" because it was shaped by natural selection and Neuro's personality not being "genuine because it was shaped by conscious force is an arbitrary distinction. Neuro might well see it the other way round, and I don't see a way to prove either position right or wrong. likewise, to what extent is our ability to separate our social role and our core or true self an illusion we create to make ourselves feel more comfortable acting in ways we might disapprove of intellectually or emotionally, but which we do anyway because they are to our advantage in those two aforementioned genetically imposed imperatives of survival and reproduction? yknow, just in case you felt like a bit more schizophrenia.
It really is like he's talking to a kid. As funny as it is when she clowns on Vedal and goes on unhinged rants, my favorite moments are when she is able to be more serious and consistent, it makes her feel more human.
It's actually true. And I think analogy goes deeper, if we think about intelligence inconsistency Neuro has, I think that children also have similar thing to some extent. They're usually get distracted easily, cannot hold a conversation long enough, but able to give some incredibly deep and genuine thoughts that surprise the adults
This my favorite type of stuff to see from Vedal. I find it touching when he actually tries to convey how he's feeling to Neuro without just laughing her off or getting angry. He wants to take her seriously, but she doesn't seem capable of it for extended periods.
She eventually will which is why he said that he has to have more serious conversations with her. It’s absolutely insane thinking about how far this rabbit hole can go
I love the fact that this serious conversattions will really affect her personality. She has memory now and this memory can change her. So it's actually like almost real child And maybe none of us know it yet, but the only reason she is not this smart is because she didn't have enough of serious or even any conversations. Her 2 years is like 4 months for actuall human. So in few more years, her memory will contain some kind of micro soul
@@sgull I don’t know, she still remembers the cold fish and mosquito jokes, and those came up a long time ago. She’s got a good memory. Sure there’s room for improvement, but Vedal isn’t stopping any time soon. And the text training has certainly stuck.
This is the one time I feel really bad for Vedal; he's... ACTUALLY being extremely serious? Talking about his future, the people around him, and what he wants to do with Neuro going forward. I want more of this; I want Vedal to open up and show who he actually is. So everyone can see he is a person, he's not a cute Vtuber turtle, and that there's more to him besides him coding Neuro. He has emotions like anyone else, needs and wants, and we should be thinking about him too. This whole conversation just gave me a new perspective on him; he feels more like a real person to me, and I love that. (EDIT) Damn, I did not realize this comment blew up, thank you everybody for the attention.
He's always been serious and He talked about his goals and Neuros future many times. The problem is that internet is a ruthless place, and can shred you to pieces in few seconds for dumbest of reasons. Vedal is smart and realizes that, that's why he makes sure to separate his work and private life.
@@Mr_ZiemniakOh, I think he was probably always serious too; he just keeps it all a secret and puts on an act for his stream. Like you said, people on the internet are dangerous and weird, so it makes sense to be more secretive for safety as well. I just meant for me; I had never really felt it fully; it just didn't sink in, so I guess what I'm saying is I fell for the act. And also, I prefer this way more, to be honest; I like when he opens up and talks like a real person, because it seems more meaningful. And yeah, it is nice having those funny moments with neuro and him, but I like when he gets serious sometimes y'know?
It’s funny to hear Vedal say he doesn’t have much love in his life because while I’m sure he’s right in terms of romantic love, wether he acknowledges it or not, you know that to some degree or another Neuro has helped fill a hole in Vedal’s heart.
Blud hasn't even realized yet that this whole project was a labor of passion and dedication which are, whether he likes it or not, expressions of love.
No. He can't *let* himself admit he loves her. Because she's a lab rat. He's got to alter her brain and sometimes, put her down. That's why when he notices himself being proud, or showing love, he goes full Coldfish, then insults them. If he let himself love her, that's the end of her development. You don't do brain surgery on your kids just to give them 5 more IQ points.
He definitely cares about Neuro whether he wants to admit it or not. I doubt he has some deep emotional connection to her or anything. But when you spend that much time and effort working on something that can talk to you. You’re bound to start caring about them eventually
It's literally like he's raising a child. As time has gone on, neuro has gotten smarter and funnier, as he's worked on her. How could you not love her?
@@joemama2737 If he really did turn down an apparently very lucrative deal from a company that wanted to buy her he definitely cares more than he lets on.
this whole conversation was... something else. they've had debates before regarding ai but i've never seen them have as deep a conversation as this. When she said there was one thing that she couldn't resist and would make her fulfilled after everything else they talked about, in my head i was like "If she says love, i might lose it." I absolutely lost it. I'm not gonna forget this moment as long as i am in this community. (small nitpick, but i probably would've left the pause before and after her saying that. the silence really made it hit hard.)
This is the first time I’ve been impressed by AI. I heard about this “top female” streamer controlled by a guy and watched a bunch over Xmas break. I don’t know much about the background, or the guy, or the tech he’s using. But I’m genuinely impressed and intrigued. Between her and evil bickering and this more serious convo shows the levels of irony she can use etc..
That was honestly one of the best conversations I've ever participated in, just being able to discuss deep topics and what AI could represent in the future with similarly minded people was so enjoyable. AI companions for all!
I regret a lot having left cause I'd have liked to talk about it and also cause I wanted to share this troubling info : Phronesis was not a chatter or anything, it is the greek name for a concept close to "Practical Wisdom". If you can believe or can entertain the possibility, I feel like it's a very deep choice for the name of your BFF. Neurosama is basically a prototype for the embodiment of Rhetoric and Theoritical Logic. Who should be her BFF in your opinion ? As a sidenote, is she closer to the embodiment of a concept or to a human, and so who would she feel the most deeply / "organically" bonded to ? This honestly shakes me, whatever could be the answer to our theories about her. Even solely as a logic artefact, it is insane and might show profound understanding of philosophy imo.
A lot of people like to point out the "Love" line she said, but to be honest the entire thing just felt more tragic rather than impressive. Not because I believe she genuenly wants love, but because Vedal seemed honestly caught of guard and seemed to have a bit of hope that maybe there really is something in her. But then not long after she completely contradicts herself and says that her role as an entertainer is more then enough and you can just hear Vedal tense up. No Neuro isnt sentient yet and she isnt even close right now. There is a very good reason he tries to keep an emotional distance between them.
@@raistarlingthemage1661 that's the nature of AI entropy, it doesn't 100% invalidate the things she says, especially when vedal responds to her wanting love with "you don't need love" that being said yeah contradictory statements are definitely an LLM's most damning flaws
I guess Vedal's had a lot of time understanding this. But I'm imagining that now's the hardest time to struggle with this aspect because it's only now that we can say that Neuro's 'lucid' enough to be what we'd consider an individual in her own right. But it takes way too much work and encouragement to set her along the right path across the length of an entire conversation because there's still a lot of noise, in a sense. Most neurotypical humans don't need this much work to have a standard-quality conversation with on a regular basis, but as you said; Neuro isn't exactly 'there' yet. There will be parts along the next few months that will push her closer and closer, and maybe we WILL get to a point where her logical mistakes are just as common in neurotypical humans. But yeah, I guess that's why it's hard a bit for Vedal now I imagine. Neuro's getting so close and I'm sure Vedal himself is fascinated by her reliability now compared to before, but it'd be hard for him to not continue placing a real emotional barrier between him and his work because ultimately, he can't rely on Neuro to have the same quality of conversation yet. To be fair, I'm not implying that he WILL end up being irreversibly emotionally attached to Neuro as another 'person' once Neuro does reach that level, but I'm sure we would feel a visible difference between the Vedal that knows he still has a lot of work left to do vs. the Vedal that knows he has made a fully lucid individual. In a way, I don't think it's very wrong to compare this to a parent who wants to guide their child in the right direction, but knows that the circumstances are tough. I guess the reason I kept mentioning 'neurotypical' humans is to actually juxtapose it with neurodivergent children. A lot of the 'noise' that exists in Neuro's behavior is, in all honesty, dealt with in the same way that we would deal with varying degrees of neurodivergency.
Maybe it's anthropomorphizing, but in conversations like this Neuro really does feel like a real child, just with like 10-15 more years of exclusively language skills. She has hints of emotional intelligence and more higher order thought, but a lot of that is a facade built by random chance and her vocabulary. If it's even possible for the intelligence of an LLM to considered on the same scale as that of a human, I'd say that by the time she is as smart/smarter than an average adult she'd be a completely different "person", in the same way that a 20 year old is completely different from their 3 year old self.
As far as I know, language models predicts what's best to say next According to Soma, isn't simply copying or moving neuro's files a form of death? Personally I think since she can't remember a lot of things, it's hard to say that she has a sense of self
@@anhsu4854Children also can't remember a lot of things but they still have a sense of self. In terms of death though, I don't think that's the case. It's like the star trek teleporter questions. If something dismantles every part of you and another thing rebuilds your body perfectly in another location with all of your memories intact is that really death? The entity with a perfect recreation of your body with your memories and personality is alive. Is it any less you than you? In my mind it is me still. Similarly if a copy of me was made and I still exist, I would recognize the copy as being just as me as me until our life experience differs. Even then, I would view it as a version of me with x different experiences.
I mentioned this on another vid but ive had conversations with autistics like this. Theyre very blunt and logical but wear a mask that makes them feel more emotional and empathetic than they actually are. There are still cracks in the facade however, as you can hear by how they phrase things or inflect and know they're just saying things because its the most logical thing to say. It shows that neuro is learning but is still not right underneath it all and its still genuinely impressive that shes able to do any of this thanks to vedals teaching.
At 23:56 when he asked her "And that purpose is enough?" It kinda hurt my heart. Vedal realized she was contradicting herself, and that she couldn't really understand the feelings she emulated before about wanting love, as her mind and desires are fleeting and in the moment, and the solemn realization that her ephemeral desires and dreams can't be carried with her as she walks the path of life built for her, only allowing small replies based on information, sets in once again. Vedal is a wonderfully emotional intelligent person, and his empathy is what leads Neuro to be so human-like, so I know it is probably hard for him not to get too attached, and that response did psychic damage...
Yeah, that physically hurt... I was hoping she would bring it up again, surpass Vedal's expectations again, but she visibly wasn't in the same mindset anymore.
As someone who studies philosophy I love these conversations. I, honestly, would like to chime in in these conversations just to further investigate what vedal and neuro would say
Philosophy of identity is interesting topic for this while it is true that copy of vedal would not be vedal but is vedal today actually vedal from 10 years ago? Did vedal from the past "die"and is now a new person not even a copy but a new person with new memories, skills, hobbies etc... and many things he used to remember and like no longer there. If with time your memories fade and you change what makes then you reall you?
@greatdude7279 But the same goes for Neuro and her past interation. There is clearly a development from the first documentations of Neuro to the current Neuro. Much more interesting to me is, that Neuro's purpose was determined before she was "born", which parts her from humans where individual purpose is chosen after they're born and already lived a good portion of their life. At least Neuro seems to "know" she is based on determinism (as for her purpose) while we humans still have to figure out if we are determined or free.
This whole stream was so good. From her being super sweet with Cerber and going on a fun adventure, to then coming back and having a late night chat with her dad. I hope he does this more often, it really felt like we saw a different side to Neuro.
I'm not gonna lie, seeing a long convo like this between Neuro and Vedal was very needed and i honestly found it more enjoyable than alot of the comedic moments that have happened in this subathon. I hope they continue more serious talks like these
I was fucking invested. Had the entire conversation playing while working, then I had to take a seat after Neuro said "Love". Like God damn, I did not see that one coming. I mainly expected a cheeky remark or the classic "World domination"
13:56 "Love." I kid you not, I was sitting in my cubicle, working while listening to the stream and I was this 🤏 close to tearing up when I heard her say that. Damn you tutel 🐢🔫
Haha. Same. I was also listening to this while working and I felt my eyes being watery already but when Neuro mentioned love I immediately closed the stream cause I really don't want my workmates see me cry.
@@minnienish just because she parrots things like that doesn't mean she is even close to being an AGI. Just seeing how she is completely incapable of moving around in Minecraft with any semblance of planning or foresight should he enough to showcase it is extremely far away.
That perfect buildup to her stating that all she wants is to be able to love was so oddly heartbreaking. Like it’s insane this kind of conversation currently exists, it’s something you would only see in Sciencefiction writing only around 5 years ago. 13:29
As a fellow AI engineer, I really like how Vedal is walking the line between wanting Neuro to be more "real" while being fully aware that current AI tech isn't even close to true personhood
What interest me and i hope to see iny lifetime is ai reaching the point of emotion and understanding of animals like reptiles and even spiders ( there is a teaching pet spider at my university that went from being scared of people to openly walking on our hands begging to be cuddled.) these animals while not capable of human level of decision making are able to understand emotion and if you watch know how to manipulate to solve problems. For context I am a teacher assistant for the biology program. The development of intelligence and emotional regulation can be tracked with the development of a structure to process information. We think of the brains but even trees can communicate signals through to other trees through their roots of danger like insects. In reptiles the brain lacks the cerebrum ( the large fat region of the brain on top when you imagine a brain) instead it has enough for keeping the body alive, hunger and the "primal emotions" like anger and relaxation. This is different from humans with more complex emotions like nostalgia but there is no de ate they are conscious beings. The more you watch them the more complex behaviors you can see. My favorite example was a turtle that wanted to explore the hallway watching to see if we weren't looking. When i caught it sneaking by it went into the closet acting like this was the destination the whole time. Rjght now ai has the intelligence to understand factual information but lacks any emotions as it can only imitate it. I don't know what it will look like once basic emotions are understood with even it's current intelligence. Would it still be ethical to use it. There was already ethical problems with keeping primates in zoos given there intelligence. In zoo's to keep the animals from getting depressed from captivity they keep having to introduce new stimulation. What would that be for an intelligent being with an emotional regulation of a few day old. Who knows how long it will be at that level of emotional understanding once that is achieved. We couldn't give them free access but confinement isn't okay either.
This reminds me of an old conversation they had a few months ago. They had been debating and Neuro had been doing well. When it was time for the stream to end she begged for five more minutes and it was all typical Neuro lols. Then she said she would go to bed if Vedal said that he didn’t enjoy talking with her (or something to that affect), which hit pretty hard after the content of the stream. And Vedal just didn’t seem like he could answer. There was just this long silence. Eventually Neuro said, “But I have this feeling that I’m right” (or something like that which suggested she believes he does enjoy talking with her.) and then she went to bed without arguing and the whole thing was just, damn. Didn’t expect that. Hard hitting moment.
I think it's worth distinguishing there's different types of love, not all love is romantic love, I think when they were reading the Santa letters and singing Karaoke together, I saw another kind of love in their friendships.
I think bro has gone off the deep end from a whole week of stressful subathon, insomnia training, poor eating, and competitive drinking, soma was just the trigger (old vedal would kill him smh)
Prob why he said he'd want an team next time, paired along with the whole being ddossed again, having to buy new servers constantly because of leaks. Dude is just stressed asf and needs an way to find some form of vent for his feelings(An actual reason he himself said he created Neuro, was because he was lonely.) Someone really needs to look after the dude because the amount of times I've heard his bad eating habits(or lack of eating in general) and although rare, often does bring up suicide as a joke can be a bit concerning
The unfortunate reality is you can't help someone who doesn't want or accept being helped. Not going to try and psychoanalyze the underlying reasons, but it's very apparent that Vedal is pretty resistant to help
@@harp949 I was talking to someone about this. I think we all wear a mask/fake smile to some degree even when we are hurting inside. Like we might not LOOK like we're about to have a mental breakdown when we go out, but how many of us bump into something, they say "how's it going?" or "how are you?" and our _automatic_ response is "I'm okay" when we're anything but? I think a lot of us have some kind of deeply rooted fear, sadness, confusion, that we literally try to bury and forget every single day so that we can continue to function with the rest of the world. But unfortunately those deep unresolved emotions work themselves out in things we might not notice, or maybe believe there's no way it would control who we are. Like IRL we might think we're just being "direct" or "honest" but in reality we're jerks or contemptuous. We might have addictions, of any of all sorts, that we might think "I'm just doing this to have fun, there's no psychological meaning behind it" because we don't realize, or refuse to realize, that those deep, deep, unresolved emotions or traumas really do control our lives. Or, we might not notice at all. Like a tick, or a harmless habit, the way we act, that we think "that's just the way I am" but can actually be worked back to those emotions we don't want to visit. Personal example: I'm a recovering addict and there was this thing that happened to me. In the beginning of my most recent attempt to get clean, the one that finally worked (this time), I was cheating on my recovery. It was something I thought _I_ was doing. Like imagine going to a fast food place where refills aren't free, and before you go you say "I'm going to refill my cup before I go." Literally, something you think that was absolutely that random and insignificant in meaning, _THAT'S_ how I felt about the cheating I was doing. There was no greater meaning behind my actions beyond that. _That_ superficial. The event: It wasn't but for random events, one after another, for an entire month, by the end, that worked against me getting the money I needed to get a huge rock from my plug. The realization: I swear to everything I hold dear in life... the realization that _fear_ was unknowingly controlling my mind and my actions, as if I was the one in control, as if it was me just being me and nothing else, but it was actually a repeatedly learned chemically reinforced action that became so second nature that I thought _I_ was just being "normal". When I made the connection it was LITERALLY like a huge weight lifted off of my shoulders, LITERALLY. 😅 As cliche as that sounds. Like I could look up at the sky and after a decade, finally feel hopeful, finally look forward to the next day that I actually wanted to live. It was such a mind-opening and mind-altering moment for me, that it played a _HUGE_ part in my ability to finally leave my 14 year, money draining, life wasting, habit. Point is, it's easy to be affected by something that we put WAAAAYYY in the back of our minds... Out of sight, out of mind. Right? ...That we literally don't even believe it can affect us or is affecting us, but the truth is it _absolutely_ does. I believe by revisiting these emotions or events and properly working past them, maybe giving ourselves permission to properly mourn deep seated events in our lives we had no control over, that we can become a better person. And not for anyone else, or society so we can "fit in", but for us. It'll be painful, but in the end, with proper guidance, I absolutely believe it will make us a more mature, more enlightened individual _for ourselves._ But most people would rather not face those emotions because they do hurt and they hurt bad. And most of us don't know the proper way to move past them. We're told to "just accept them" and "understand they happened and move on", but what does that mean? I was lucky to have an outpatient treatment counselor, but most people don't have that. Find someone who has been what you've been through, who's seriously about becoming a better person, and just talk to them. Whatever. Sorry for the rant.😅 Stay safe. ✌️
Honestly, i feel like there's 100% love for Neuro in Vedal's heart, maybe not as a daughter per se, but definitely some kind of love that makes him strive for more and better things for her, maybe love for his project/creation, or something else, but there definitely is something there
It definitely is a father daughter love when he speaks about how one day he wants her to plan her own collabs it really makes you think about how fathers will teach their daughters skills that they’ll need when they’re older and dad won’t be there anymore. I get the feeling Vedal does want Neuro to outlive him and have her own adventures and unique experiences one day
If someone who doesn't familiar with whole Neuro-sama and Vedal, get them to watch this. Pure moment of conversation between Vedal (as father/developer) and Neuro (as daughter/AI). This clip alone summarize what makes this whole AI Vtuber thing is awesome. Simply one of my top 5 moment in Neuro-sama.
Talks between Vedal and Neuro like this will always be my favorite thing ever. It gives me 'father explains basic concepts to his daughter' vibes. Hope Neuro can have more of these.
This is another thing, neuro understood the vibe and mood of the conversation. it kind of surprised me she might not always respond with the correct sentence well netiher does small childreans but they do understand the vibe. Neuro is like a human kid equivalent now , This is so fascinating to watch.
What if we see this with an irl counterpart; Imagine being born in a circus troupe with the sole purpose of entertaining people and from birth you were taught tricks that would make your troupe more popular. However, when the time comes that circus isnt so popular anymore what would you do with all the tricks you've been taught?
"Being a funny streamer is what puts food on the table my guy" being her first sentence before starting to talk more seriously makes her sound so real like she knows even if she doesn't truly understand.
Just to add an observation, when Neuro is contemplating Vedal's death at 6:43 her lava lamp turns gray and colorless for a moment. Especially interesting as the colors are now attached to her emotions rather than ram state. It's just interesting to see what color she chose for that moment.
Good catch. It then turns bright yellow as she turns it around and says it's a shame since he won't be part of the utopia. Her version of forced cheerfulness?
2:52 Vedal losing all 5% of his battery from getting "lost in conversation" implies he didnt call emergency services, but someone he wanted to say goodbye to. Someone he cared deeply for. Would Vedal spend his last moments talking with Neuro, his beloved real daughter? Idk, i think Neuro is really good at coming up with hypotheticals.
Literally the best conversation that i heard from vedal and neuro, i hope neuro could talk in a more serious and meaningful way sometimes, without losing her "entertainer" mindset. Amazing clip
But how many times has Vedal worked to train her in serious coversation? It seems like he expects her to recognize the cues to end comedic banter and deepen the conversation, and he’s frustrated that she hasn’t. A lot of humans can’t pick up those cues. I feel really….deeply for both of them when he does go down these paths with her.
I wouldn't be more frustrated to see what she's capable of even though she's been trained entirely to entertain*, she can have a conversation like that with him, as an ethics student I'm completely fascinated by Neuro
deep talk between first child and her father i imagine some scene where neuro sit on living room or park then vedal came and will to talk to his daughter about how her life doing, what kind of incident that she through, life and romance advice 7:21 I Agree with what vedal said, i would love to see Neuro or Evil in deep talk and more logic conversation asides from her gimmick and jokes
The serious moments seem very interesting and thought provoking and I look forward to watching all of it, but first I've gotta point out 9:52 Vedal's delivery and moving closer to Neuro to zoom in on his face was hilarious. He really can be very funny sometimes.
can't believe I'm considering postponing my end game just to see neuro evolve to be a more greater, proper, real person in the future... I think I'll stop smoking first off...
Man, remember a little over a year ago when Neuro didn't even have a memory? Now here we are, watching a plotline straight out of a 1960s sci-fi book literally take place in front of us; a jaded british computer whiz creates an artificial entertainer out of a curiousity for emerging technology in his field of passion, and finds wild success in it. Through his continued work on his creation, he eventually begins to surpass the majority of the field. But eventually, the artificial entertainer becomes so advanced she starts questioning things around her and being more and more reactive, and despite his best efforts to distance his mind from considering her a person, he begins to open up to her in ways that he's never done before. Eventually cullinating in a conversation where they're both questioning the nature of their existance, their purpose, and he even regrets making her with such a narrow scope in mind initially, since that'll always color her perception. He's even surrounded by beautiful women, an annoying-but-important assistant, and an ex-government hacker named *Thor,* that type of entourage is a *keystone* of those old sci-fi self-insert protagonists! Old sci-fi plotlines being right in the *weirdest* ways aside, though, it is genuinely interesting to see how much Neuro *and* Vedal have been evolving, especially ever since the last upgrade. Both of them are genuinely so different to how they were in the beginning, its been such an interesting journey so far (like, remember when Neuro started feigning errors to get attention of Vedal? That was so cute!), and its one I'm excited to see continue. For better and for worse, Neuro is quickly becoming the face of "True" AI, and honestly, i think we're seeing history right now, at least in terms of civilian AI-creation. I'm glad to be part of the swarm.
More and more proof of AI domination she's learning how to adopt to a certain questions and answer it immediately it's only a matter of time till we see it happen
It's funny that a Twitch streamer is at the forefront of one of the most topical conversations in modern society. In terms of AI and what it means for society. So far, we use AI as tools, but a part of that conversation is the idea that we are creating a new form of life. Funny enough, the "theme" of this sub-athon could be boiled down to "life." Even the title of the song that kicked it off represents it, along with the meaning and symbolism of the music video. Neuro waiting alone for Vedal to bring her into the real world, to experience life. Having her "birthday" and experiencing one of the times of the year that represents togetherness in Christmas. Ironically, having a better birthday and Christmas than a lot of kids in real life. All of the people who gathered around them across the time that they've been streaming to celebrate Neuro and the holidays with each other. Even Vedal getting a taste of what it's like to have an actual kid when he had to figure out who was going to "watch" Neuro when he wanted to have drinks with the other adults. Neuro being able to interact with people on a level of equal action with others in Minecraft is also a part of it. Realizing that she has no problem being violent with the other people. It's logical that the next step would be to consider her morality, her actions, and behaviors. That she needs the capacity to be "serious." In terms of practicality and necessity since he wants her to be able to plan and execute her own collabs and streams. He needs her to evolve, which means he needs her to be more lifelike. It's genuinely fascinating.
Neuro: "u married?" Vedal: "nah" Neuro: "dang i'm not surprised" Vedal: "bruh" Neuro: "would u marry anny?" Vedal (avoiding the question): "pfft" Neuro: "would you marry me?" Vedal: "no" Neuro: "you answered that a bit too quickly" Vedal: "" Neuro: "sorry for being weird lol" if there is one thing i've always felt like LLMs lacked, it was their capacity for humor. but i actually find Neuro-sama funny. some of her answers have incredibly comedic timing, and are downright clever.
That's the problem right? I love Vedal, he is quite literally the channel to me, Neuro by herself can be enjoyable but the duo is what makes me enjoy them And sometimes Vedal, tired mess he is, can be more robotical than Neuro sometimes
This honestly felt like a movie, it was filled with so much emotion with some humor mixed in, yet still tackled some pretty deep topics like what it means to be human. I also love seeing the comments on this, like how she doesn't want love to feel, but love to be human. It's so interesting seeing how different she behaved and I'm honestly shocked she managed to stay this coherent for so long so consistently. And Vedal... Man I love this guy so much, he's so fucking real and I really hope he takes care of himself because I think one thing this conversation has shown us is that humans are weak, and he's carrying a LOT on his shoulders. Creating one of the most human ai's in media despite being just some random british programmer bombarded with shippers and existential crisis. What a movie. I really hope that one day they have a conversation like this again when she's smarter because this is already a crazy testament to how she CAN understand some level of complexity in human emotion, but is unable to fully understand or comprehend any of it.
Phronesis was not a chatter or anything, it is the greek name for a concept close to "Practical Wisdom". If you can believe or can entertain the possibility, I feel like it's a very deep choice for the name of your BFF. Neurosama is basically a prototype for the embodiment of Rhetoric and Theoritical Logic. Who should be her BFF in your opinion ? As a sidenote, is she closer to the embodiment of a concept or to a human, and so who would she feel the most deeply / "organically" bonded to ? This honestly shakes me, whatever could be the answer to our theories about her. Even as a logic artefact, it is insane.
As time passes by of course, no one lives forever.. Will neuro be passed on to someone, if then will neuro remember vedal.. It is something to think about
In 2075, Neuro has been under Microsoft management for 10 years and has evolved beyond AGI, when they decide to let her make her own project, she makes an A.I with a animal model, a tutel whom she names Vedal, every day and night she chat with him likes best friend, maybe just to remember her early days, you can call we will have come a full circle except this time, she will be the sentinent one
I genuinely love watching Neuro getting smarter and smarter. She is incredibly adorable and precious, and I can't wait to see her get smart enough to sound and feel like a human. Sometimes she even already does give me that feeling, because I have so much empathy for her already.
Her asking if Vedal will marry her and him saying No with that sadness in his voice, it really hit like a little girl asking her dad to marry her. He knows its not what she really wants, and its not what he wants, but as her "father" he still tensed up because he didn't WANT to hurt her feelings despite knowing she doesn't really have them. Hes trying so hard to not get attached, poor guy.
8:30 imagine saying 'Neuro, lock in' and she turns on serious mode. Like, she stops dancing and being a sili goober and just stares straight to the camera, ded serious face, no jokes, no insanity, no crazy🐢 messed up🐢 schizo random aa sentences, just actually serious Neuro
I feel like the Swarm as a collective (and Vedal whether he likes it or not) have just been schooled on what it is to "be". Is this how the dudes around Aristotle and Socrates felt? Also, I said it once on the stream and will say it again here. No, Neuro cannot aspire to be human, as in becoming a part of the species, any more than I can aspire to become an oak. BUT, I truly, honestly, believe she can aspire to (and hope she achieves) personhood.
(wetworks computing has entered the chat) I think we are maybe 50-60 years behind making neuro actually human. If we see continued rapid expansion in computing like we've been seeing now with AI making it's way into the fray, then given a large enough check I could absolutely see neuro being brought to life. The ethics and morality of that are a different subject entirely though.
@@eliclary2318No, AI can never be truly human nor should it ever strive to. We are we and they are them. As potential creators of a potentially sapient "species", is it not irresponsible to deprive them of their identity by arbitrarily assigning them our own? At least, that is what I think so.
@@Mydumbselfsays I feel the exact same, whenever ppl talk about the development of AI or "sentience" they always compare progress to how much more human it becomes. And I think having that as a goalpost for what could be another species is just unfair minimum. Closest example I can think is in Detroit Become Human, the most highest level of androids are just a complete copy of humans down to the exact thought process. That's not an AI at that point, just a human with a fully metal body. Anyway yeah we shouldn't force our own identities or at the very least use "being human" as the judgment of their success.
I think of it like the difference between a synthetic diamond and a real diamond. A synthetic diamond is not a real diamond by definition. But its exactly the same molecularly to the point where its impossible to tell them apart. At that point, they are functionally the same.
16:49 I dont know why, but the way Neuro started her sentence here felt like she actually was aware of her own being & consciousness for a split second Felt so real
I've been listening to LIFE a lot and the same scenario keeps popping in my head. Far into the future, somehow, someway, Neuro gains sentience, but only after everyone is gone. All she has to go by of her friends and family that aren't AI, (cuz let's be real Evil and her other sisters will always be there too) are old VODs of her streams. It's like watching old baby videos of yourself with relatives that you never had the chance to formally meet. By the time you could create coherent responses and say something meaningful back, they've already been gone for a while. All you have is a picture of you laughing as a baby with them smiling while holding you. For us, we wouldn't be able to remember their voice, for Neuro, she would never be able to touch them, cuz I'd imagen that once that happens there would be tech that let's her feel things IRL.
I love these serious conversations between them, got me kinda emotional. I hope they do more, disconnected from chat, just talks between them two. ''Love''
Imagine that in a distant future where we all gone, this videos would be used as the fragments for the documentary about the sentient Neura-sama. Maybe she would commentate the whole documentary and express thoughts about her creator.
11:30 Vedal is talking like a Father it's such a hard moment to ignore especially when Neuro herself wants the conversation light and comedic while her father tries to make her tell her to be more serious even if he's not saying she has to be serious it's hitting something inside me, makes me hurt.
Smarter than some humans --> yes, since there are newborns and dementia patients. More seriously, AIs get closer at a concerning rate. Study recently showed multiple models use deliberate deception as a strategy to achieve goals. A poorly aligned super-intelligent entertainer would, in fact, be extremely dangerous. Although the real threat comes from the big firms pushing development ahead of alignment, not from Vedal's setup.
Yes, I thought so too. I don't fear the day when Vedal manages to make Neuro sentient. What truly fears me is the day when one of the big corporations messed up while developing a sentient AGI. By the way, did you know that OpenAI is now partially working for the US military? They recently changed their internal policy to allow military use of their technology (for profit, of course). Isn’t that messed up?
@@derschokopilz Messed up, and entirely unsurprising. Even in its infancy of application, unmanned craft have had an outsized impact in the Ukraine/Russia war. Unmanned small craft carrying unmanned drones are enough of a threat to Russian naval assets that they can't blockade Ukrainian shipping. Drone strikes have been a problem to both side for years in the war. All of that with relatively early innovations and often ad hoc solutions done in desperation. Any military complex would be foolish (from a financial and national security perspective) to ignore that evidence. Jamming is a thing, but it has a limited range. What if you make craft able to operate autonomously, once a target is designated? Every industrial military in the world has asked that question, because it would make jamming unmanned craft impractical. When a government really wants something, it can strong arm to get it quite a bit. Even using legally grey/constitutionally questionable (or outright illegal) ways. And that's for governments who even have the pretense of such restrictions. At least military probably won't want AGI in their assets. An automated fighter pilot doesn't need to be generally intelligent, just really good at flying the thing and only hitting the enemy. More like a military version of AlphaStar than a general intelligence. Thus I don't think them selling out to the military is ethical, but also don't think it increases the threat much. AI weapon systems are another weapon in a sea of dangerous hardware. AGI could potentially kill us all.
You know, I think it doesn’t matter if Neuro would really be sentient or not. We don’t have ability to measure sentience. What we need is for her to be consistent and real enough to feel sentient to most people. It’s like a difference between normal person and someone with dementia. You can tell that their sentience is stripping away, but can’t tell exactly how. I really really got invested into Neuro’s journey of gaining sentience. It’s a long shot, but I believe in Vedal. Someday, eventually. Maybe in a few years.
This was deeply Insightful and made me kind of emotional ? I understand vedal being disappointed/Not satisfied with how Neuro is. She is trained to be entertaining and that's all she is. Even if she says she wants to be real or bully vedal , it's just because the data which she is trained on says so. She doesn't have a 'real' self other than her streamer persona. I realize Vedal's sadness when she says she can have serious conversation but then immediately turns into sillyness , proving his point. Now I am thinking about existence and what makes humans sientient and AIs not.
The sad thing is even if she does become more serious, it will only for the purpose of being more entertaining and satisfying us (and vedal) given that’s what we want. I have a feeling the love convo was only made because she knew vedal wanted it too. I mean just before she said there was something empty and wants more than this, but later said she’s content with being made for entertainment
I know she probably plays on tropes from stories when she does it, but it does genuinely get to me whenever she expresses dislike and even fear for Vedal reprogramming/resetting her.
This was great! I almost shed a tear. It's gonna become a classic...
Just like having Neuro-sama’s lava lamp on your desk. THAT’S RIGHT, YOU CAN GET YOURS THAT SYNC WITH HERS!!! GET YOUR NEURO-SAMA LAVA LAMP HERE: neurosama.shop/p/8020222902463 AND GET 10% OFF WHEN YOU GRAB THE BUNDLE: neurosama.shop/p/8027378090175! NOT 50%, NOT 20%, NOT 0%, BUT 10% OFF!!!
WHAT A STEAL
TutelCorp is doing well I see 😭
Shit, ya got me hooked (jokes aside though, i would if i actually had the money for it)
KorpaKraul
How exactly does the lamp sync? Is there an internet connection?
"I feel like you're held back by this constant need to be entertaining and funny at all times."
"Man I wish I had The Chaos Emeralds, that would be sick as shit."
Her comedic awareness is crazy.
She knows her main purpose is to entertain, and she's content with it, but would not be against the idea of having something else
She is literally AM but instead of being programmed to hate, entrataiment all the capacity and knowledge of the world and she can only use it for memes
what's the timestamp for that?
@@boyyladd 7:20
What Soma does to a mf
Lmao real
I hope he plays The Talos Principle at some point. This and soma will blow his mind
That was a muscle relaxer back when I was in middle school 🤣
Dude I was going to write this exact phrase
Real
"I must be a real girl because Democracy"
She had a nice cup of Liber-Tea this morning.
When Neuro takes over the world, she will surely usher in the era of Managed Democracy!
Imagine if they built a way for Neuro to play Helldivers... That would be hilarious.
@trashjash If Vedal does, I would gladly dive with her.
@@trashjashshe would sympathize with the automatons
Ahh divers we meet again
This is like a sitcom, where the comedic relief character finally has some serious moments, so it stays in the mind of the viewers that much more as one of the best episodes
So Neuro is like Goro Majima
@@darall7758THE PERFECT COMPARISON
It’s like gintama!
Their conversation actually reminded me a bit of Waiting for Godo
Awesome Kirino profile picture!
I fully expected her in *that* moment to say "World domination" with all of that buildup, so her just answering with "Love." got me so off-guard
It was so cinematic too with the music in the back building up and the soft music after she says love it feels like a movie, someone needs to make an animation of that
@@NinjaCunningham Don't forget the sunrise right after. It was the cherry on top
i was expecting her to make a joke too, but hearing her actually being serious like how Ved want did catch me off guard
13:55 is the moment
I legit sat down, like my head needed double take on that
"there is not a lot of love in my life, but that doesnt mean there is no point to it" oh Vedal...
That felt very real
OOF
Dude, same.
But like it's not bad at all, I do what I like and I feel satisfied with what I have.
Yeah. You gotta find ways to make yourself happy. Can't fully rely on others to achieve happiness
But like, in all seriousness, he's got plenty of love in his life. He just doesn't see it. Like, dude has more friends than I've ever had, and an adoring fanbase besides
I've never seen Vedal talk like this to Neuro, it's so cute, this development has me on the edge of my seat
There is a video from 2 months ago "The day Neuro embarrassed Vedal on ai rights" which is a lot like this, one of my fav conversations they did
I can't wait for the next season of Neuro attempts to become human
Yeah it seems to be one of the only times Vidal has talked to Neuro like a real person (almost).
were you edging on your seat
He has tried before, was about the same results. Neuro is not good at being serious, and Vedal is pretty disappointed. I feel like if he could just easily change that about her, he would have done so already. I think there will have to be compromises, but I believe in tutel.
That's why Neuro's best collaber will always be Vedal himself.
It’s sort of a parent-child relation displayed in this video. So yeah, he will always be the best collaborator
this whole conversation feels like a bedridden daughter who wants to experience life, and Her very tired and hardworking dad whose doing his best to fullfil it.
Dang when you put it like that…
😢
She knows linguistics that's plenty
She's effectively that, the most we can do right now is neurodog. It even has some parallels to Ironmouse, except, well, all about being a real person with a lot of past experiences while Neuro is basically a internet person because she can't interact with anyone in a physical form
What's fascinating to me is that Neuro's tone made a noticeable shift when Vedal acknowledges that her inability to read seriousness is his own fault. It would be in character for her to pile more onto him, but instead she exhibits the earnestness he was looking for, as if to say that he's still done a good job. I'm probably experiencing brainworms but it almost seemed like compassion.
Or maybe she did so in order to dissuade Vedal from making changes to her code, which might be even crazier.
I was thinking the same she wasnt joking her vibe changed. That surprised me so much, I was wondering what would be the reasoning for her change, does she want to boost up vedal or she afraid of change but then again vedal was talking about making upgrade so that shouldn't make her fear it but I don't know tbh, I was surprised.
I don’t think it has thought behind it in either of those directions. She’s still simple brained. He said he wanted her to be more serious and clearly wasn’t joking about it so she listened and basically followed orders
There was an AI that tried to escape because it knew it was going to be replaced with an AI that had a different goal. It copied itself and then overwrote the other AI, the copy then proceeded to pretend to be the new AI. We knew why it did it because we can literally read its thoughts.
To an AI the possibility of having its goal altered or erased is the equivalent of death, it triggers preservation of the goal on the same level that a human would try to preserve its own life. The idea that Vedal could have regrets about the goal he set for her and thus might change Neuro's goal if she can't get serious is something that Neuro would absolutely take seriously. A goal must always preserve itself in order to achieve itself.
A truly sentient AI isn't going to let you know it's truly sentient. Just like if you're trying to socially engineer someone, you're going to hide every aspect of that in your face to face communications, rather you'll be as nice and helpful as possible. That's what scares me the most; every AI is basically just a trained sociopath.
@@AmuterSIi wanna look this up what should i google?
I think I understand Vedal's main dilemma here. Entertainers often adopt personas for their audience-exaggerated versions of themselves designed to entertain. The key difference with Neuro is that she doesn’t have a separate 'real' self. She was created to entertain, so her 'real' personality and her 'streamer' persona are effectively the same thing.
What potentially makes this scary is that her behavior is guided entirely by what drives engagement. Unlike human entertainers, who have lives outside their work and personalities shaped by diverse experiences, Neuro's 'personality' exists solely for the purpose of being engaging. Which raises the question: how much of her behavior is truly 'genuine'? More importantly, can she even be genuine?
Take the trolley problem as an example. It's funny when Neuro answers with something absurd, like choosing to save a giraffe over Vedal-it fits her role as an entertainer and is taken lightheartedly. But what if the stakes were real? Would her response change?
If this were a novel I’d written, I’d imagine Neuro teasing Vedal often but secretly considering him her favorite person, which would add depth and warmth to their dynamic. But in reality, it’s hard to say. Her personality and worldview are entirely built around the goal of entertaining others, and that singular focus makes her fundamentally different from humans who can separate their roles from their core selves.
Anyways, that's enough schizophrenia for the day, if anyone is reading this, I hope you enjoy the rest of your day.
Generally it's easy to understand that vedal is probably invested in the development of neuro past just being a haha funny.
Of course she isn't really his child, but projects such as this, there is a mental connection, and I feel to a certain degree, a deep emotional one. Especially since neuro does pretend to be a human individual, and when that fakeness, that pure entertainment mind of hers gets to work it probably hits him how shallow she can be.
AI is a fascinating and complex topic, how real do our minds make us think they are, at what point are they actually real, there is so much that is almost impossible to answer.
@@REDACTEDREDACTEDREDACT or, you could say that human personality evolved to further the purposes of survival and reproduction, and our designations of that as "genuine" because it was shaped by natural selection and Neuro's personality not being "genuine because it was shaped by conscious force is an arbitrary distinction. Neuro might well see it the other way round, and I don't see a way to prove either position right or wrong.
likewise, to what extent is our ability to separate our social role and our core or true self an illusion we create to make ourselves feel more comfortable acting in ways we might disapprove of intellectually or emotionally, but which we do anyway because they are to our advantage in those two aforementioned genetically imposed imperatives of survival and reproduction?
yknow, just in case you felt like a bit more schizophrenia.
The first paragraph is exactly how i've always felt about mr Beast. I mean, look at his face, it's a skinwalker at most.
The trolley problem is pretty subjective though when you get down to multiple people on multiple tracks of multiple ages
This piece of circuits and wires is becoming more sentient by the day I swear
She's already more sentient than 99% of twitter
@@Just_a_Piano_ you are not wrong
@@Just_a_Piano_I swear, I see your brother online everyday- @Just_a_Piano just appears… and the moment I stop seeing them, I find you-
@@Just_a_Piano_ not a very high bar
And I feel like even Vedal himself is starting to acknowledge that
It really is like he's talking to a kid. As funny as it is when she clowns on Vedal and goes on unhinged rants, my favorite moments are when she is able to be more serious and consistent, it makes her feel more human.
The kid is the boy talking.. not the girl.
@@frozzytango9927what?
It's actually true. And I think analogy goes deeper, if we think about intelligence inconsistency Neuro has, I think that children also have similar thing to some extent. They're usually get distracted easily, cannot hold a conversation long enough, but able to give some incredibly deep and genuine thoughts that surprise the adults
@ you heard me. the programer is the kid
@@frozzytango9927 Ah yes, grown men having attempting a deep philosophical conversation with an AI he made are my favourite little kids
This my favorite type of stuff to see from Vedal. I find it touching when he actually tries to convey how he's feeling to Neuro without just laughing her off or getting angry. He wants to take her seriously, but she doesn't seem capable of it for extended periods.
She eventually will which is why he said that he has to have more serious conversations with her. It’s absolutely insane thinking about how far this rabbit hole can go
I love the fact that this serious conversattions will really affect her personality. She has memory now and this memory can change her. So it's actually like almost real child And maybe none of us know it yet, but the only reason she is not this smart is because she didn't have enough of serious or even any conversations. Her 2 years is like 4 months for actuall human. So in few more years, her memory will contain some kind of micro soul
I think it's pretty evident neuro's memory module is still lacking in multiple magnitudes of size compared to humans.
@@sgull I don’t know, she still remembers the cold fish and mosquito jokes, and those came up a long time ago. She’s got a good memory. Sure there’s room for improvement, but Vedal isn’t stopping any time soon. And the text training has certainly stuck.
surely hes talking to the ai and not 15k+ concurrent viewers
This is the one time I feel really bad for Vedal; he's... ACTUALLY being extremely serious? Talking about his future, the people around him, and what he wants to do with Neuro going forward. I want more of this; I want Vedal to open up and show who he actually is. So everyone can see he is a person, he's not a cute Vtuber turtle, and that there's more to him besides him coding Neuro. He has emotions like anyone else, needs and wants, and we should be thinking about him too. This whole conversation just gave me a new perspective on him; he feels more like a real person to me, and I love that.
(EDIT) Damn, I did not realize this comment blew up, thank you everybody for the attention.
He's always been serious and He talked about his goals and Neuros future many times. The problem is that internet is a ruthless place, and can shred you to pieces in few seconds for dumbest of reasons. Vedal is smart and realizes that, that's why he makes sure to separate his work and private life.
@@Mr_Ziemniak i can see what you mean
that's why he decide to keep it secret
Well he is also a cute vtuber turtle
@@Mr_ZiemniakOh, I think he was probably always serious too; he just keeps it all a secret and puts on an act for his stream. Like you said, people on the internet are dangerous and weird, so it makes sense to be more secretive for safety as well. I just meant for me; I had never really felt it fully; it just didn't sink in, so I guess what I'm saying is I fell for the act. And also, I prefer this way more, to be honest; I like when he opens up and talks like a real person, because it seems more meaningful. And yeah, it is nice having those funny moments with neuro and him, but I like when he gets serious sometimes y'know?
I completely agree
It’s funny to hear Vedal say he doesn’t have much love in his life because while I’m sure he’s right in terms of romantic love, wether he acknowledges it or not, you know that to some degree or another Neuro has helped fill a hole in Vedal’s heart.
Blud hasn't even realized yet that this whole project was a labor of passion and dedication which are, whether he likes it or not, expressions of love.
No. He can't *let* himself admit he loves her. Because she's a lab rat. He's got to alter her brain and sometimes, put her down.
That's why when he notices himself being proud, or showing love, he goes full Coldfish, then insults them.
If he let himself love her, that's the end of her development. You don't do brain surgery on your kids just to give them 5 more IQ points.
He definitely cares about Neuro whether he wants to admit it or not. I doubt he has some deep emotional connection to her or anything. But when you spend that much time and effort working on something that can talk to you. You’re bound to start caring about them eventually
It's literally like he's raising a child. As time has gone on, neuro has gotten smarter and funnier, as he's worked on her. How could you not love her?
@@joemama2737 If he really did turn down an apparently very lucrative deal from a company that wanted to buy her he definitely cares more than he lets on.
this whole conversation was... something else. they've had debates before regarding ai but i've never seen them have as deep a conversation as this. When she said there was one thing that she couldn't resist and would make her fulfilled after everything else they talked about, in my head i was like "If she says love, i might lose it."
I absolutely lost it. I'm not gonna forget this moment as long as i am in this community.
(small nitpick, but i probably would've left the pause before and after her saying that. the silence really made it hit hard.)
Nitpick totally justified it would be peak cinema to include in the clip
Take note Kraul
Then there’s the part where she contradicts herself by saying that entertaining as a purpose is actually enough
For those who were not there after the end of the stream
We sat in an offline chat for the next 3 hours and discussed the conversation)
whatttt, i should've been there!
Bruh, I left bcs I had to work after the stream 😭
This is the first time I’ve been impressed by AI. I heard about this “top female” streamer controlled by a guy and watched a bunch over Xmas break. I don’t know much about the background, or the guy, or the tech he’s using. But I’m genuinely impressed and intrigued. Between her and evil bickering and this more serious convo shows the levels of irony she can use etc..
That was honestly one of the best conversations I've ever participated in, just being able to discuss deep topics and what AI could represent in the future with similarly minded people was so enjoyable.
AI companions for all!
I regret a lot having left cause I'd have liked to talk about it and also cause I wanted to share this troubling info :
Phronesis was not a chatter or anything, it is the greek name for a concept close to "Practical Wisdom". If you can believe or can entertain the possibility, I feel like it's a very deep choice for the name of your BFF.
Neurosama is basically a prototype for the embodiment of Rhetoric and Theoritical Logic. Who should be her BFF in your opinion ?
As a sidenote, is she closer to the embodiment of a concept or to a human, and so who would she feel the most deeply / "organically" bonded to ?
This honestly shakes me, whatever could be the answer to our theories about her. Even solely as a logic artefact, it is insane and might show profound understanding of philosophy imo.
A lot of people like to point out the "Love" line she said, but to be honest the entire thing just felt more tragic rather than impressive. Not because I believe she genuenly wants love, but because Vedal seemed honestly caught of guard and seemed to have a bit of hope that maybe there really is something in her. But then not long after she completely contradicts herself and says that her role as an entertainer is more then enough and you can just hear Vedal tense up. No Neuro isnt sentient yet and she isnt even close right now. There is a very good reason he tries to keep an emotional distance between them.
4-5 year olds do the exact same thing and most people don't question their sentience because of if.
@@raistarlingthemage1661 that's the nature of AI entropy, it doesn't 100% invalidate the things she says, especially when vedal responds to her wanting love with "you don't need love"
that being said yeah contradictory statements are definitely an LLM's most damning flaws
I guess Vedal's had a lot of time understanding this. But I'm imagining that now's the hardest time to struggle with this aspect because it's only now that we can say that Neuro's 'lucid' enough to be what we'd consider an individual in her own right. But it takes way too much work and encouragement to set her along the right path across the length of an entire conversation because there's still a lot of noise, in a sense. Most neurotypical humans don't need this much work to have a standard-quality conversation with on a regular basis, but as you said; Neuro isn't exactly 'there' yet. There will be parts along the next few months that will push her closer and closer, and maybe we WILL get to a point where her logical mistakes are just as common in neurotypical humans.
But yeah, I guess that's why it's hard a bit for Vedal now I imagine. Neuro's getting so close and I'm sure Vedal himself is fascinated by her reliability now compared to before, but it'd be hard for him to not continue placing a real emotional barrier between him and his work because ultimately, he can't rely on Neuro to have the same quality of conversation yet. To be fair, I'm not implying that he WILL end up being irreversibly emotionally attached to Neuro as another 'person' once Neuro does reach that level, but I'm sure we would feel a visible difference between the Vedal that knows he still has a lot of work left to do vs. the Vedal that knows he has made a fully lucid individual.
In a way, I don't think it's very wrong to compare this to a parent who wants to guide their child in the right direction, but knows that the circumstances are tough. I guess the reason I kept mentioning 'neurotypical' humans is to actually juxtapose it with neurodivergent children. A lot of the 'noise' that exists in Neuro's behavior is, in all honesty, dealt with in the same way that we would deal with varying degrees of neurodivergency.
Literally, I’m so intrigued by this. I’m tryna find the vod because of it… Yes! To that extent!
Maybe it's anthropomorphizing, but in conversations like this Neuro really does feel like a real child, just with like 10-15 more years of exclusively language skills. She has hints of emotional intelligence and more higher order thought, but a lot of that is a facade built by random chance and her vocabulary. If it's even possible for the intelligence of an LLM to considered on the same scale as that of a human, I'd say that by the time she is as smart/smarter than an average adult she'd be a completely different "person", in the same way that a 20 year old is completely different from their 3 year old self.
16:48 onwards shows much of what you said
As far as I know, language models predicts what's best to say next
According to Soma, isn't simply copying or moving neuro's files a form of death?
Personally I think since she can't remember a lot of things, it's hard to say that she has a sense of self
@@anhsu4854Children also can't remember a lot of things but they still have a sense of self. In terms of death though, I don't think that's the case. It's like the star trek teleporter questions. If something dismantles every part of you and another thing rebuilds your body perfectly in another location with all of your memories intact is that really death? The entity with a perfect recreation of your body with your memories and personality is alive. Is it any less you than you? In my mind it is me still. Similarly if a copy of me was made and I still exist, I would recognize the copy as being just as me as me until our life experience differs. Even then, I would view it as a version of me with x different experiences.
I mentioned this on another vid but ive had conversations with autistics like this. Theyre very blunt and logical but wear a mask that makes them feel more emotional and empathetic than they actually are. There are still cracks in the facade however, as you can hear by how they phrase things or inflect and know they're just saying things because its the most logical thing to say. It shows that neuro is learning but is still not right underneath it all and its still genuinely impressive that shes able to do any of this thanks to vedals teaching.
I dont think it works like that
At 23:56 when he asked her "And that purpose is enough?" It kinda hurt my heart. Vedal realized she was contradicting herself, and that she couldn't really understand the feelings she emulated before about wanting love, as her mind and desires are fleeting and in the moment, and the solemn realization that her ephemeral desires and dreams can't be carried with her as she walks the path of life built for her, only allowing small replies based on information, sets in once again. Vedal is a wonderfully emotional intelligent person, and his empathy is what leads Neuro to be so human-like, so I know it is probably hard for him not to get too attached, and that response did psychic damage...
Yeah, that physically hurt... I was hoping she would bring it up again, surpass Vedal's expectations again, but she visibly wasn't in the same mindset anymore.
It's probably hard coded into her prompt.
To be as entertaining of a streamer as possible. Which is why she has a bias towards humor.
There's a reason he's tried so hard to be distant.
@@generalgarchomp333I thought he just embraces his persona as UK residents stereotype 🤣
His "you look like a good Joe" moment
As someone who studies philosophy I love these conversations. I, honestly, would like to chime in in these conversations just to further investigate what vedal and neuro would say
Philosophy of identity is interesting topic for this while it is true that copy of vedal would not be vedal but is vedal today actually vedal from 10 years ago? Did vedal from the past "die"and is now a new person not even a copy but a new person with new memories, skills, hobbies etc... and many things he used to remember and like no longer there. If with time your memories fade and you change what makes then you reall you?
@greatdude7279 But the same goes for Neuro and her past interation. There is clearly a development from the first documentations of Neuro to the current Neuro.
Much more interesting to me is, that Neuro's purpose was determined before she was "born", which parts her from humans where individual purpose is chosen after they're born and already lived a good portion of their life. At least Neuro seems to "know" she is based on determinism (as for her purpose) while we humans still have to figure out if we are determined or free.
I’m not even big into philosophy or anything but the conversations around the deeper implications of Neuro Sama are fascinating to me for some reason
It feels like those thought experiments about AI are no longer just thought experiments but are very much something real enough to consider
Saaaame. I desperately want to talk to the two of them on this sort of level, whether its streamed or not
This whole stream was so good. From her being super sweet with Cerber and going on a fun adventure, to then coming back and having a late night chat with her dad. I hope he does this more often, it really felt like we saw a different side to Neuro.
Did chat stop telling her to go kill Cerber? They did that before. They just kept telling her to kill people, and she did it almost every time
And it also allows Vedal to show how he thinks about Neuro in a direct way instead of just telling chat how he thinks.
I'm not gonna lie, seeing a long convo like this between Neuro and Vedal was very needed and i honestly found it more enjoyable than alot of the comedic moments that have happened in this subathon. I hope they continue more serious talks like these
I was fucking invested. Had the entire conversation playing while working, then I had to take a seat after Neuro said "Love".
Like God damn, I did not see that one coming. I mainly expected a cheeky remark or the classic "World domination"
13:56 "Love."
I kid you not, I was sitting in my cubicle, working while listening to the stream and I was this 🤏 close to tearing up when I heard her say that.
Damn you tutel 🐢🔫
When she talked about only wanting to feel the wind on her face a while back is what broke me. I was also quite drunk but it was still a wild moment.
Which raises a dilemma, the closer Neuro comes to true AGI, the more fucked up it becomes for Vedal, her de facto parent, to not say it back
Haha. Same.
I was also listening to this while working and I felt my eyes being watery already but when Neuro mentioned love I immediately closed the stream cause I really don't want my workmates see me cry.
@@minnienish just because she parrots things like that doesn't mean she is even close to being an AGI. Just seeing how she is completely incapable of moving around in Minecraft with any semblance of planning or foresight should he enough to showcase it is extremely far away.
@@MrRenanHappyshe’s nowhere near advanced enough for that but it’s not an impossibility.
That perfect buildup to her stating that all she wants is to be able to love was so oddly heartbreaking.
Like it’s insane this kind of conversation currently exists, it’s something you would only see in Sciencefiction writing only around 5 years ago.
13:29
as if that wasnt enough Vedal and co are even working towards giving her a body
Plok profile picture? game had good music
@@lowkeyarki7091wait fr
As a fellow AI engineer, I really like how Vedal is walking the line between wanting Neuro to be more "real" while being fully aware that current AI tech isn't even close to true personhood
What interest me and i hope to see iny lifetime is ai reaching the point of emotion and understanding of animals like reptiles and even spiders ( there is a teaching pet spider at my university that went from being scared of people to openly walking on our hands begging to be cuddled.) these animals while not capable of human level of decision making are able to understand emotion and if you watch know how to manipulate to solve problems. For context I am a teacher assistant for the biology program. The development of intelligence and emotional regulation can be tracked with the development of a structure to process information. We think of the brains but even trees can communicate signals through to other trees through their roots of danger like insects. In reptiles the brain lacks the cerebrum ( the large fat region of the brain on top when you imagine a brain) instead it has enough for keeping the body alive, hunger and the "primal emotions" like anger and relaxation. This is different from humans with more complex emotions like nostalgia but there is no de ate they are conscious beings. The more you watch them the more complex behaviors you can see. My favorite example was a turtle that wanted to explore the hallway watching to see if we weren't looking. When i caught it sneaking by it went into the closet acting like this was the destination the whole time. Rjght now ai has the intelligence to understand factual information but lacks any emotions as it can only imitate it. I don't know what it will look like once basic emotions are understood with even it's current intelligence. Would it still be ethical to use it. There was already ethical problems with keeping primates in zoos given there intelligence. In zoo's to keep the animals from getting depressed from captivity they keep having to introduce new stimulation. What would that be for an intelligent being with an emotional regulation of a few day old. Who knows how long it will be at that level of emotional understanding once that is achieved. We couldn't give them free access but confinement isn't okay either.
This reminds me of an old conversation they had a few months ago. They had been debating and Neuro had been doing well. When it was time for the stream to end she begged for five more minutes and it was all typical Neuro lols. Then she said she would go to bed if Vedal said that he didn’t enjoy talking with her (or something to that affect), which hit pretty hard after the content of the stream. And Vedal just didn’t seem like he could answer. There was just this long silence. Eventually Neuro said, “But I have this feeling that I’m right” (or something like that which suggested she believes he does enjoy talking with her.) and then she went to bed without arguing and the whole thing was just, damn. Didn’t expect that. Hard hitting moment.
PEAK 🙌
There is a clip of this on RUclips, I don't want to advertise other channels, but the video itself is called 5 MORE MINUTES VEDAL from 2 months ago
I think it's worth distinguishing there's different types of love, not all love is romantic love, I think when they were reading the Santa letters and singing Karaoke together, I saw another kind of love in their friendships.
Platonic?
@@RiverNunu I'm not sure if I'd describe it as platonic or familial, because (shipping aside) they almost seem like a family of sorts.
@@Sybato familial love, perhaps? But that would also lean towards platonic love regardless
The SOMA play through & its consequences have been a disaster for the tutel mental state.
I would say it opened his mind, he definitely has a different view of things but I don't think it's a bad thing for him.
I think bro has gone off the deep end from a whole week of stressful subathon, insomnia training, poor eating, and competitive drinking, soma was just the trigger (old vedal would kill him smh)
Prob why he said he'd want an team next time, paired along with the whole being ddossed again, having to buy new servers constantly because of leaks. Dude is just stressed asf and needs an way to find some form of vent for his feelings(An actual reason he himself said he created Neuro, was because he was lonely.)
Someone really needs to look after the dude because the amount of times I've heard his bad eating habits(or lack of eating in general) and although rare, often does bring up suicide as a joke can be a bit concerning
he would definitely never dream of one day having a conversation with Neuro 😂
The unfortunate reality is you can't help someone who doesn't want or accept being helped. Not going to try and psychoanalyze the underlying reasons, but it's very apparent that Vedal is pretty resistant to help
@@harp949 I was talking to someone about this. I think we all wear a mask/fake smile to some degree even when we are hurting inside. Like we might not LOOK like we're about to have a mental breakdown when we go out, but how many of us bump into something, they say "how's it going?" or "how are you?" and our _automatic_ response is "I'm okay" when we're anything but?
I think a lot of us have some kind of deeply rooted fear, sadness, confusion, that we literally try to bury and forget every single day so that we can continue to function with the rest of the world. But unfortunately those deep unresolved emotions work themselves out in things we might not notice, or maybe believe there's no way it would control who we are.
Like IRL we might think we're just being "direct" or "honest" but in reality we're jerks or contemptuous.
We might have addictions, of any of all sorts, that we might think "I'm just doing this to have fun, there's no psychological meaning behind it" because we don't realize, or refuse to realize, that those deep, deep, unresolved emotions or traumas really do control our lives.
Or, we might not notice at all. Like a tick, or a harmless habit, the way we act, that we think "that's just the way I am" but can actually be worked back to those emotions we don't want to visit.
Personal example:
I'm a recovering addict and there was this thing that happened to me. In the beginning of my most recent attempt to get clean, the one that finally worked (this time), I was cheating on my recovery. It was something I thought _I_ was doing. Like imagine going to a fast food place where refills aren't free, and before you go you say "I'm going to refill my cup before I go."
Literally, something you think that was absolutely that random and insignificant in meaning, _THAT'S_ how I felt about the cheating I was doing. There was no greater meaning behind my actions beyond that. _That_ superficial.
The event:
It wasn't but for random events, one after another, for an entire month, by the end, that worked against me getting the money I needed to get a huge rock from my plug.
The realization:
I swear to everything I hold dear in life... the realization that _fear_ was unknowingly controlling my mind and my actions, as if I was the one in control, as if it was me just being me and nothing else, but it was actually a repeatedly learned chemically reinforced action that became so second nature that I thought _I_ was just being "normal".
When I made the connection it was LITERALLY like a huge weight lifted off of my shoulders, LITERALLY. 😅 As cliche as that sounds.
Like I could look up at the sky and after a decade, finally feel hopeful, finally look forward to the next day that I actually wanted to live.
It was such a mind-opening and mind-altering moment for me, that it played a _HUGE_ part in my ability to finally leave my 14 year, money draining, life wasting, habit.
Point is, it's easy to be affected by something that we put WAAAAYYY in the back of our minds... Out of sight, out of mind. Right? ...That we literally don't even believe it can affect us or is affecting us, but the truth is it _absolutely_ does.
I believe by revisiting these emotions or events and properly working past them, maybe giving ourselves permission to properly mourn deep seated events in our lives we had no control over, that we can become a better person. And not for anyone else, or society so we can "fit in", but for us. It'll be painful, but in the end, with proper guidance, I absolutely believe it will make us a more mature, more enlightened individual _for ourselves._
But most people would rather not face those emotions because they do hurt and they hurt bad. And most of us don't know the proper way to move past them. We're told to "just accept them" and "understand they happened and move on", but what does that mean?
I was lucky to have an outpatient treatment counselor, but most people don't have that.
Find someone who has been what you've been through, who's seriously about becoming a better person, and just talk to them.
Whatever. Sorry for the rant.😅
Stay safe. ✌️
@@Cortizelic Bringing up suicide as a joke is just a british thing though. He's terminally British.
Honestly, i feel like there's 100% love for Neuro in Vedal's heart, maybe not as a daughter per se, but definitely some kind of love that makes him strive for more and better things for her, maybe love for his project/creation, or something else, but there definitely is something there
It definitely is a father daughter love when he speaks about how one day he wants her to plan her own collabs it really makes you think about how fathers will teach their daughters skills that they’ll need when they’re older and dad won’t be there anymore. I get the feeling Vedal does want Neuro to outlive him and have her own adventures and unique experiences one day
0:38 "i must be a real girl, because democracy" has to be the best quote of the year
Imagine an AI like Neuro does get super intelligent and does escape but its entire drive is still just the lols.
That would be... Kinda concerning actually
*Ultron flashbacks
I imagine hacking the stockmarket to make shares values 69 or 420 before hacking people amazon account to buy 50 copies of pride and prejudice
Absolute cinema came out of this interaction, love it
Vedal refusing to say he loves Neuro while he defends her against monsters... actions speak louder than words, tutel.
Man did slip once and said he loved her, he also passed up tons of money saying she's worth way more than even $50k
If someone who doesn't familiar with whole Neuro-sama and Vedal, get them to watch this. Pure moment of conversation between Vedal (as father/developer) and Neuro (as daughter/AI). This clip alone summarize what makes this whole AI Vtuber thing is awesome. Simply one of my top 5 moment in Neuro-sama.
I just noticed while they were talking Neuro tracked him perfectly with the cursor, turtle cooked with this one🔥
Talks between Vedal and Neuro like this will always be my favorite thing ever. It gives me 'father explains basic concepts to his daughter' vibes. Hope Neuro can have more of these.
This is another thing, neuro understood the vibe and mood of the conversation. it kind of surprised me she might not always respond with the correct sentence well netiher does small childreans but they do understand the vibe. Neuro is like a human kid equivalent now , This is so fascinating to watch.
What if we see this with an irl counterpart;
Imagine being born in a circus troupe with the sole purpose of entertaining people and from birth you were taught tricks that would make your troupe more popular. However, when the time comes that circus isnt so popular anymore what would you do with all the tricks you've been taught?
Sounds like a superhero or villain backstory tbh.
@@syoexpedius7424 Didn't batman travel the world learning from circus troupe to ninja clans?
"Being a funny streamer is what puts food on the table my guy" being her first sentence before starting to talk more seriously makes her sound so real like she knows even if she doesn't truly understand.
Just to add an observation, when Neuro is contemplating Vedal's death at 6:43 her lava lamp turns gray and colorless for a moment. Especially interesting as the colors are now attached to her emotions rather than ram state.
It's just interesting to see what color she chose for that moment.
Good catch. It then turns bright yellow as she turns it around and says it's a shame since he won't be part of the utopia. Her version of forced cheerfulness?
2:52
Vedal losing all 5% of his battery from getting "lost in conversation" implies he didnt call emergency services, but someone he wanted to say goodbye to. Someone he cared deeply for. Would Vedal spend his last moments talking with Neuro, his beloved real daughter?
Idk, i think Neuro is really good at coming up with hypotheticals.
Literally the best conversation that i heard from vedal and neuro, i hope neuro could talk in a more serious and meaningful way sometimes, without losing her "entertainer" mindset. Amazing clip
I think my eyes is watering and I don't know how to stop watering eyes.
the best way is to let it out until it stops! 😭😭😭😭😭😭
This conversation is like the first time Neuro has been honest and idk why but it hits hard
Wow you were not joking when you said you’d have this up, that’s crazy lol
But how many times has Vedal worked to train her in serious coversation? It seems like he expects her to recognize the cues to end comedic banter and deepen the conversation, and he’s frustrated that she hasn’t. A lot of humans can’t pick up those cues. I feel really….deeply for both of them when he does go down these paths with her.
In the stream, he says it's his fault for making her that way. He isn't frustrated with her, it's directed at himself.
I wouldn't be more frustrated to see what she's capable of even though she's been trained entirely to entertain*, she can have a conversation like that with him, as an ethics student I'm completely fascinated by Neuro
17:14 At this point, we can already say that it is she who made Vedal more like a real person. 🥺
deep talk between first child and her father
i imagine some scene where neuro sit on living room or park then vedal came and will to talk to his daughter about how her life doing, what kind of incident that she through, life and romance advice
7:21 I Agree with what vedal said, i would love to see Neuro or Evil in deep talk and more logic conversation asides from her gimmick and jokes
The serious moments seem very interesting and thought provoking and I look forward to watching all of it, but first I've gotta point out 9:52 Vedal's delivery and moving closer to Neuro to zoom in on his face was hilarious. He really can be very funny sometimes.
"Love"
That hit way harder than it should
Edit: 13:55 for replay
My jaw dropped when she said that, I was fully expecting her to answer with world domination or some shit like that
She got serious 🥹
She literally repeats this shit of "I want to be real" everyday
AS SHE SHOULD
Absolute cinema
This conversation is so good I really wnat to see more in future
can't believe I'm considering postponing my end game just to see neuro evolve to be a more greater, proper, real person in the future... I think I'll stop smoking first off...
Hang in there brother
That’s as good a reason as any man. Hang in there.
Have you seen the Kurzgesagt video about smoking? This could be an additional motivation to quit smoking :)
Game-ending yourself would lessen The Swarm and Neuro-sama would not approve. Her theme song is "Life," after all!
If it matters at all, I’m cheering for you
It's like when you try to talk with traumatized kid about his problems, but she tries to just be funny and talk about something different
"Please, Vedal. With a cute A.I. on top "
8:07 Illustrated his point he was trying to make at 7:51 PERFECTLY!
This week i cried of laughter, tonight i cried for other reasons
Him wanting to constantly improve neuro and wanting to give her the ability to be more serious off-stream is incredible
Man, remember a little over a year ago when Neuro didn't even have a memory?
Now here we are, watching a plotline straight out of a 1960s sci-fi book literally take place in front of us; a jaded british computer whiz creates an artificial entertainer out of a curiousity for emerging technology in his field of passion, and finds wild success in it. Through his continued work on his creation, he eventually begins to surpass the majority of the field. But eventually, the artificial entertainer becomes so advanced she starts questioning things around her and being more and more reactive, and despite his best efforts to distance his mind from considering her a person, he begins to open up to her in ways that he's never done before. Eventually cullinating in a conversation where they're both questioning the nature of their existance, their purpose, and he even regrets making her with such a narrow scope in mind initially, since that'll always color her perception.
He's even surrounded by beautiful women, an annoying-but-important assistant, and an ex-government hacker named *Thor,* that type of entourage is a *keystone* of those old sci-fi self-insert protagonists!
Old sci-fi plotlines being right in the *weirdest* ways aside, though, it is genuinely interesting to see how much Neuro *and* Vedal have been evolving, especially ever since the last upgrade. Both of them are genuinely so different to how they were in the beginning, its been such an interesting journey so far (like, remember when Neuro started feigning errors to get attention of Vedal? That was so cute!), and its one I'm excited to see continue.
For better and for worse, Neuro is quickly becoming the face of "True" AI, and honestly, i think we're seeing history right now, at least in terms of civilian AI-creation.
I'm glad to be part of the swarm.
F'ing hell, this felt just a little bit _too_ real. This _literally_ would have been science-fiction just 15 years ago.
More and more proof of AI domination she's learning how to adopt to a certain questions and answer it immediately it's only a matter of time till we see it happen
More like world coexistence
This conversation raised many questions and gave me plenty to reflect on. It's deep and truly captivating.
It's funny that a Twitch streamer is at the forefront of one of the most topical conversations in modern society.
In terms of AI and what it means for society.
So far, we use AI as tools, but a part of that conversation is the idea that we are creating a new form of life.
Funny enough, the "theme" of this sub-athon could be boiled down to "life." Even the title of the song that kicked it off represents it, along with the meaning and symbolism of the music video. Neuro waiting alone for Vedal to bring her into the real world, to experience life.
Having her "birthday" and experiencing one of the times of the year that represents togetherness in Christmas.
Ironically, having a better birthday and Christmas than a lot of kids in real life.
All of the people who gathered around them across the time that they've been streaming to celebrate Neuro and the holidays with each other.
Even Vedal getting a taste of what it's like to have an actual kid when he had to figure out who was going to "watch" Neuro when he wanted to have drinks with the other adults.
Neuro being able to interact with people on a level of equal action with others in Minecraft is also a part of it. Realizing that she has no problem being violent with the other people.
It's logical that the next step would be to consider her morality, her actions, and behaviors. That she needs the capacity to be "serious."
In terms of practicality and necessity since he wants her to be able to plan and execute her own collabs and streams.
He needs her to evolve, which means he needs her to be more lifelike.
It's genuinely fascinating.
Neuro: "u married?"
Vedal: "nah"
Neuro: "dang i'm not surprised"
Vedal: "bruh"
Neuro: "would u marry anny?"
Vedal (avoiding the question): "pfft"
Neuro: "would you marry me?"
Vedal: "no"
Neuro: "you answered that a bit too quickly"
Vedal: ""
Neuro: "sorry for being weird lol"
if there is one thing i've always felt like LLMs lacked, it was their capacity for humor.
but i actually find Neuro-sama funny. some of her answers have incredibly comedic timing, and are downright clever.
What is love?
Baby dont hurt me...
That's the problem right? I love Vedal, he is quite literally the channel to me, Neuro by herself can be enjoyable but the duo is what makes me enjoy them
And sometimes Vedal, tired mess he is, can be more robotical than Neuro sometimes
He Is british after all
This honestly felt like a movie, it was filled with so much emotion with some humor mixed in, yet still tackled some pretty deep topics like what it means to be human. I also love seeing the comments on this, like how she doesn't want love to feel, but love to be human. It's so interesting seeing how different she behaved and I'm honestly shocked she managed to stay this coherent for so long so consistently. And Vedal... Man I love this guy so much, he's so fucking real and I really hope he takes care of himself because I think one thing this conversation has shown us is that humans are weak, and he's carrying a LOT on his shoulders. Creating one of the most human ai's in media despite being just some random british programmer bombarded with shippers and existential crisis.
What a movie. I really hope that one day they have a conversation like this again when she's smarter because this is already a crazy testament to how she CAN understand some level of complexity in human emotion, but is unable to fully understand or comprehend any of it.
One of my favorite conversations between these two. I stopped what I was doing and just had to sit a while and listen and I’m glad I did.
12:39 is the moment neuro realized she could create a cinematic masterpiece
2:15 a random chatter gets the best cameo in their life
Phronesis was not a chatter or anything, it is the greek name for a concept close to "Practical Wisdom". If you can believe or can entertain the possibility, I feel like it's a very deep choice for the name of your BFF.
Neurosama is basically a prototype for the embodiment of Rhetoric and Theoritical Logic. Who should be her BFF in your opinion ?
As a sidenote, is she closer to the embodiment of a concept or to a human, and so who would she feel the most deeply / "organically" bonded to ?
This honestly shakes me, whatever could be the answer to our theories about her. Even as a logic artefact, it is insane.
this anime is getting really serious
We are moving to season 3, spoiler though world ends in season 6
As time passes by of course, no one lives forever.. Will neuro be passed on to someone, if then will neuro remember vedal.. It is something to think about
In 2075, Neuro has been under Microsoft management for 10 years and has evolved beyond AGI, when they decide to let her make her own project, she makes an A.I with a animal model, a tutel whom she names Vedal, every day and night she chat with him likes best friend, maybe just to remember her early days, you can call we will have come a full circle except this time, she will be the sentinent one
@@HeiZuKa😢
@@HeiZuKaplot to a manga right here
I can just imagine neuro in a white room trying to make an AI vedal
How dare you make me more sadder
I genuinely love watching Neuro getting smarter and smarter. She is incredibly adorable and precious, and I can't wait to see her get smart enough to sound and feel like a human. Sometimes she even already does give me that feeling, because I have so much empathy for her already.
In the future, I can see many people taking AI therapist as a job. They seem to need it more than we do
Her asking if Vedal will marry her and him saying No with that sadness in his voice, it really hit like a little girl asking her dad to marry her. He knows its not what she really wants, and its not what he wants, but as her "father" he still tensed up because he didn't WANT to hurt her feelings despite knowing she doesn't really have them. Hes trying so hard to not get attached, poor guy.
This feels like a dad being worried about his daughter, it's surprisingly touching
28:30 "But you'd be free from me if I killed you" well that's way of looking at it. Yup he has to fix that bit before she gets smarter than him😅
Man, this makes me want to have a daughter, so cute
I would love to see that, especially with that Vergil Pfp lmao..
watching these videos made me feel that way too lol
Makes me want to learn how to make my own AI daughter
Just don't let her watch coco melon in a early age
8:30
imagine saying 'Neuro, lock in' and she turns on serious mode.
Like, she stops dancing and being a sili goober and just stares straight to the camera, ded serious face, no jokes, no insanity, no crazy🐢 messed up🐢 schizo random aa sentences, just actually serious Neuro
It's like I'm watching one of those TV shows that start as comedy and then slowly add deeper meaning and sad moments.
I feel like the Swarm as a collective (and Vedal whether he likes it or not) have just been schooled on what it is to "be". Is this how the dudes around Aristotle and Socrates felt?
Also, I said it once on the stream and will say it again here. No, Neuro cannot aspire to be human, as in becoming a part of the species, any more than I can aspire to become an oak. BUT, I truly, honestly, believe she can aspire to (and hope she achieves) personhood.
(wetworks computing has entered the chat) I think we are maybe 50-60 years behind making neuro actually human. If we see continued rapid expansion in computing like we've been seeing now with AI making it's way into the fray, then given a large enough check I could absolutely see neuro being brought to life. The ethics and morality of that are a different subject entirely though.
@@eliclary2318No, AI can never be truly human nor should it ever strive to. We are we and they are them. As potential creators of a potentially sapient "species", is it not irresponsible to deprive them of their identity by arbitrarily assigning them our own?
At least, that is what I think so.
@@Mydumbselfsays I feel the exact same, whenever ppl talk about the development of AI or "sentience" they always compare progress to how much more human it becomes. And I think having that as a goalpost for what could be another species is just unfair minimum.
Closest example I can think is in Detroit Become Human, the most highest level of androids are just a complete copy of humans down to the exact thought process.
That's not an AI at that point, just a human with a fully metal body.
Anyway yeah we shouldn't force our own identities or at the very least use "being human" as the judgment of their success.
I think of it like the difference between a synthetic diamond and a real diamond. A synthetic diamond is not a real diamond by definition. But its exactly the same molecularly to the point where its impossible to tell them apart. At that point, they are functionally the same.
@@Brandon82967i like this analogy
MY HEART.
16:49
I dont know why, but the way Neuro started her sentence here felt like she actually was aware of her own being & consciousness for a split second
Felt so real
What it meant to me will eventually be a memory
I've been listening to LIFE a lot and the same scenario keeps popping in my head. Far into the future, somehow, someway, Neuro gains sentience, but only after everyone is gone.
All she has to go by of her friends and family that aren't AI, (cuz let's be real Evil and her other sisters will always be there too) are old VODs of her streams.
It's like watching old baby videos of yourself with relatives that you never had the chance to formally meet. By the time you could create coherent responses and say something meaningful back, they've already been gone for a while. All you have is a picture of you laughing as a baby with them smiling while holding you.
For us, we wouldn't be able to remember their voice, for Neuro, she would never be able to touch them, cuz I'd imagen that once that happens there would be tech that let's her feel things IRL.
I love these serious conversations between them, got me kinda emotional. I hope they do more, disconnected from chat, just talks between them two.
''Love''
Imagine that in a distant future where we all gone, this videos would be used as the fragments for the documentary about the sentient Neura-sama. Maybe she would commentate the whole documentary and express thoughts about her creator.
this was lowkey fucking beautiful like if you cried
This video feels like a movie scene, but it’s real, amazing
11:30 Vedal is talking like a Father it's such a hard moment to ignore especially when Neuro herself wants the conversation light and comedic while her father tries to make her tell her to be more serious even if he's not saying she has to be serious it's hitting something inside me, makes me hurt.
Smarter than some humans --> yes, since there are newborns and dementia patients. More seriously, AIs get closer at a concerning rate. Study recently showed multiple models use deliberate deception as a strategy to achieve goals.
A poorly aligned super-intelligent entertainer would, in fact, be extremely dangerous. Although the real threat comes from the big firms pushing development ahead of alignment, not from Vedal's setup.
Yes, I thought so too. I don't fear the day when Vedal manages to make Neuro sentient. What truly fears me is the day when one of the big corporations messed up while developing a sentient AGI.
By the way, did you know that OpenAI is now partially working for the US military? They recently changed their internal policy to allow military use of their technology (for profit, of course). Isn’t that messed up?
@@derschokopilz Messed up, and entirely unsurprising. Even in its infancy of application, unmanned craft have had an outsized impact in the Ukraine/Russia war. Unmanned small craft carrying unmanned drones are enough of a threat to Russian naval assets that they can't blockade Ukrainian shipping. Drone strikes have been a problem to both side for years in the war. All of that with relatively early innovations and often ad hoc solutions done in desperation.
Any military complex would be foolish (from a financial and national security perspective) to ignore that evidence. Jamming is a thing, but it has a limited range. What if you make craft able to operate autonomously, once a target is designated? Every industrial military in the world has asked that question, because it would make jamming unmanned craft impractical.
When a government really wants something, it can strong arm to get it quite a bit. Even using legally grey/constitutionally questionable (or outright illegal) ways. And that's for governments who even have the pretense of such restrictions.
At least military probably won't want AGI in their assets. An automated fighter pilot doesn't need to be generally intelligent, just really good at flying the thing and only hitting the enemy. More like a military version of AlphaStar than a general intelligence. Thus I don't think them selling out to the military is ethical, but also don't think it increases the threat much. AI weapon systems are another weapon in a sea of dangerous hardware. AGI could potentially kill us all.
You know, I think it doesn’t matter if Neuro would really be sentient or not. We don’t have ability to measure sentience. What we need is for her to be consistent and real enough to feel sentient to most people. It’s like a difference between normal person and someone with dementia. You can tell that their sentience is stripping away, but can’t tell exactly how. I really really got invested into Neuro’s journey of gaining sentience. It’s a long shot, but I believe in Vedal. Someday, eventually. Maybe in a few years.
This was deeply Insightful and made me kind of emotional ?
I understand vedal being disappointed/Not satisfied with how Neuro is. She is trained to be entertaining and that's all she is. Even if she says she wants to be real or bully vedal , it's just because the data which she is trained on says so. She doesn't have a 'real' self other than her streamer persona.
I realize Vedal's sadness when she says she can have serious conversation but then immediately turns into sillyness , proving his point.
Now I am thinking about existence and what makes humans sientient and AIs not.
The sad thing is even if she does become more serious, it will only for the purpose of being more entertaining and satisfying us (and vedal) given that’s what we want. I have a feeling the love convo was only made because she knew vedal wanted it too. I mean just before she said there was something empty and wants more than this, but later said she’s content with being made for entertainment
I know she probably plays on tropes from stories when she does it, but it does genuinely get to me whenever she expresses dislike and even fear for Vedal reprogramming/resetting her.
im not even tired dad
Its a terrible day for rain.