Thanks John for this tip. It's a useful technique I discovered at our shop for machining a thin Teflon ring we make for a customer. Our deburr guys were buggering up the parts and pulling them out of round trying to chamfer the underside.
Another fantastic video! Thanks for your videos John, I've learned so much from you over these past few years. You've become an incredible resource to turn to for all things CNC.
I am shocked how many shops I have tried to source parts from that are BAFFLED by this technique. It has been a fantastic trick that I have used so much over the years. Thanks for sharing !!
If you do not use CAM system in a commercial shop - you are foolish. I outsource parts to a few shops that are very proud of their ability to 'do things real quick right at the machine'. False. I am faster 100% of the time using CAM, even for small edits and fixtures. In the end, you have a model referenced tool path that can be tweaked in any way very quickly with far less chance of an 'oops'. I have VERY little scrap. I setup FAST. I make parts FAST. I can make any change to any program and it is always tied to the part. When the part design changes - ALL the CAM tweaks change with it.
Factory400 you are basically the same as todays teenagers; Can't do basic addition without a calculator. CAM systems are the future for sure. But not in every case. Your capital letters are very impressive. Once you own a 80man shop with 18 machines I will listen yo your nonsense.
At the end of the day - the fastest one wins. I am, in almost every case, faster and more automated than any other shop I have interfaced with (big and small). They make all kinds of claims that they know how to do it better, faster, etc because their shop is bigger and has more experience....yet they are slower in every regard. They take longer to program, longer to setup, and scrap more parts. In the end, they have critical changes (information) scattered all over the shop and in the heads of the various people involved. That makes repeating the job far more difficult. If you are not capturing all the lessons learned while making a new part, you will be required to learn it all again the next time you do that part or one similar. My process does not require anyone to remember anything as it is embedded in the system itself. We very rarely repeat mistakes. At 43 years old, multiple businesses, etc.....I am only interested in performance, not an allegiance to legacy workflows.
I agree. I found this quote from ASME Y14.5-2009 1.8.15 Chamfers. Chamfers are dimensioned by a linear dimension and an angle, or by two linear dimensions... Where an angle and a linear dimension are specified the linear dimension is the distance from the indicated surface of the part to the start of the chamfer. Of course that might not matter if the drawing calls out a .010 length on the chamfer but most drawing in the US should be using the Y14.5-2009 standard for their drawings.
gredangeo Has nothing to do with measuring and everything to do with making it easier on the machinists. It’s so they don’t have to do the trig to get the right size chamfer flat. It’s no more difficult to measure the hypotenuse than it is to measure the rise and run.
I don't have a convenient way to measure a chamfer on the Hypotenuse. I could use the verniers and measure with that Normal to the chamfer's surface, but that is inaccurate as it gets.
One thing I didn't hear mention was to watch your leads in and leads out give yourself plenty of room so the tip doesn't come in contact on the way in or out
(@5:20 or so) also, this tool has 2 angled cutting surfaces, so you can chamfer both the top and bottom side of the stock without changing tools (again, as John said, if you just need an edge-break-type chamfer.) Just an FYI, here. 😎
It might have been that the tips of your hss cutter had some wear on them. We usualy use wear compensation for this kind of jobs. We checked our HSS dovetail cutter after some time on the tool probe and it showed that the diameter was smaller for about 1 mm for out 25 mm mill.
Harvey tools used to sell backside corner rounding tools, though they are not in the latest catalog, they are great for edge breaks when a chamfer is not specifically called out, corner rounds make parts feel better in the hand IMHO.
Vmc750 They still make them. www.harveytool.com/prod/Corner-Rounding-End-Mills/Specialty-Profiles/Browse-Our-Products_200/Corner-Rounding-End-Mills---Back-Corner-Rounding-End-Mills---Flared_54.aspx
If you note on the Mari-tool webpage. The diameter tolerance is +\- .015. That dovetail cutter probably has similar tolerances on it, which explains why it didn’t cut right the first time
gredangeo Well it’s not like the same cutter constantly varies +\- .015 😆 How much wear do you really put on a dovetail cutter?? Hundreds or thousands of parts before it needs changing out. Then just needs the diameter offsets dialed in after a change. And with modern tool setters, that’s a few seconds to get the true diameter.
The problem is with grabbing a new cutter. The diameter has potentially changed again. So you have to back it off and walk it in again, so you don't go oversize. Also, at our shop, we don't have a tool presetter. Kinda behind on that.
gredangeo Cutter diameter changes with every new cutter you grab. Even high priced carbide endmills have a +\- tolerance they’re ground to. Usually +000/ -.0015. So there’s still a change in diameter you must account for. And barring a toolsetter, a tri anvil micrometer will do for odd number of teeth cutters and a standard micrometer for even number of teeth.
@@occamssawzall3486 If the tool grinders had good equipment and professional operators the tool would be on size. Can you trust a tool manufacturer that has looser tolerances than chinese 2$ cutters?
You can replicate the form of a single point threadmill with a chamfer mill with a custom shank. You don't have absolute control over the geometry though.
great timing! was just about to do this on a production part!.. how about back chamfering holes? any advice on linking moves to get it to plunge in the center of the hole? I've seen the option to plunge on center of a hole a few times but wonder where to find it sometimes as well.
I can't give any advice for Fusion but, you probably need to manually get to depth, arc in, circle the bottom edge arc out, and back track your way out. I've never heard of a CAM program that had an out of the box operation type for easy programming something like that. If you want to get fancy, you could write a custom subprogram/user cycle and pass in some variables. I've seen it done with custom drill bodies that had a set of chamfer inserts for the top of the hole (plunge) and a set in the drill body that would back chamfer (circle interpolation)... we used a custom operation type in CAM, integrated with the post and a user cycle in the control.
Hi John, I am stucked on backside chamfer in a hole which is on a pipe (I need chamfer the hole from the inside in the pipe). I have 4th axis so it posible to use it. Trace work fine on upper chamfer, but from the bottom of the curved hole edge it doesn't work. Have you got an idea how to do that?
Hi, NYC CNC,, I have milling head maximat 11 that I broke plastic gear on it Is it possible to order from you to make me one I can send you the old one for you to much. Please let me know. Thanks Ilya
Yes they do as well as a variety of full round form tools to radius top and bottom in one shot. You have to have faced that to get the blend right but that's already fairly true of plain ol corner rounders.
I made a couple videos about chamfering that might interest y'all. (I'm not as good of a presenter/orator as John, but I think the ideas I present are pretty cool anyway.) RUclips is pretty strict about posting links, so I'll post them as a reply to this comment. A quick aside: I have asked John in the past if he's cool with me posting links and he said it was (also, I think this is the first time I've done it).
The first video shows how to get the perfect chamfer parameters by using expressions in Fusion 360. (works with back chamfers and also non-45-degree chamfers too!) ruclips.net/video/9i_ZkqGy9tQ/видео.html And the second shows a good way to speed up the plunge (which John mentions can be a bit slow). People have complained about this video being drawn out... Sorry, deal with it. ruclips.net/video/m9FzTPoUZeA/видео.html
hell no! one firht of a quarter of an inch is not logical or senceable than millimeter! there no way around it! simple 10's. 0,0001x10= 0,001! etc etc!
@balooc2 It doesn't make a difference what system you use. Yes metric is based on 10s but more often than not, fractions of 1mm must be used in precision machining. As a result you are no longer based on 10s so it really doesn't make a difference. .0254mm = .001in .0508mm = .002in .0762mm = .003in In the above example it would appear that imperial is easier and more logical when it comes to precision fits and tolerances. but... .02mm =.0007in .03mm =.0011in .04mm =.0016in now metric seems more logical So you see it really doesn't matter. They're just numbers.
Not when you live in America. Prints in metric are concerted to inches. Then we'd have to scrap our mics and buy metric ones. Not going to happen! Even my machine I work on converts everything from metric to inches. This isn't nasa over here.
In my experience, those HSS dovetail cutters are junk on dimensions. Complete garbage. Maritool has good ones sourced, but I generally stick with Harvey or AB if you want something actually built to the dimensions it claims to be.
The company I work for doesn't want to buy a CAD/CAM program. I wish they would. I have to trig all this stuff out, and write it all on paper. Then type it on the machine. And no, they won't hook a computer up to the machine. I have asked. It's like they're looking to fail. They're stuck in their ways. I've used ezcam in the past. It's a relatively cheap program, and It will get the job done. But, they won't even use that.
Gregg Then you should find a new company. A shop like that will not survive much longer unless they’re just running the same 10 or so parts over and over again. Even then. Contracts eventually end.
4 people like this comment is the first shock. Read my reply to Gregg, i'm sure you will get the main point. What you have said is incorrect. New production is valued at an all time low. No matter how fast you make it you will still be paid terrible money in comparison to 5 years ago. Repairing complex tools primarily for the oil industry, now there is a money maker.
Richie Bhoy I disagree. Oil industry work is good money, but can be fickle like aerospace work. Booming one minute and dead the next. Short run, fast turn around prototyping is huge money right now. Production in the US is fairly bust. China can almost always do it cheaper. There’s a huge demand for small quantity R&D prototype parts in the US right now and will be for the foreseeable future. Oil industry repair is a close second IMO, but varies greatly by physical location. Here in New England, there’s practically zero oil industry work and would be hard pressed to make a living at it up here. R&D prototypes however are booming.
Fascinating discussion. Is the booming R&D prototypes sector for parts or complete designs? If you were going to tool up a shop in this area, would you go more in on additive or subtractive machining? I'm looking forward to IMTS this year, to see how it has changed over the last two, with an interest in small R&D shop work.
Kent VanderVelden the company I work for is based in Nesconset New York. They do vacuum fixture work. All in house designs. Few jobs have tight tolerances. We don't do any deburring of any kind. I break the edges on the machine. And everything we do is in the negative Machining. We have one old Ikegai with FANUC T6 control. And two Okuma's. All three directly program on the keypad. Which sometimes it's frustrating knowing that CAD programs like this exist.
Thanks John for this tip. It's a useful technique I discovered at our shop for machining a thin Teflon ring we make for a customer. Our deburr guys were buggering up the parts and pulling them out of round trying to chamfer the underside.
Another fantastic video! Thanks for your videos John, I've learned so much from you over these past few years. You've become an incredible resource to turn to for all things CNC.
I am shocked how many shops I have tried to source parts from that are BAFFLED by this technique. It has been a fantastic trick that I have used so much over the years.
Thanks for sharing !!
the fact he needs to use a CAD system to do it is what is baffling.
If you do not use CAM system in a commercial shop - you are foolish.
I outsource parts to a few shops that are very proud of their ability to 'do things real quick right at the machine'. False. I am faster 100% of the time using CAM, even for small edits and fixtures. In the end, you have a model referenced tool path that can be tweaked in any way very quickly with far less chance of an 'oops'.
I have VERY little scrap. I setup FAST. I make parts FAST. I can make any change to any program and it is always tied to the part. When the part design changes - ALL the CAM tweaks change with it.
Factory400 you are basically the same as todays teenagers; Can't do basic addition without a calculator.
CAM systems are the future for sure. But not in every case.
Your capital letters are very impressive. Once you own a 80man shop with 18 machines I will listen yo your nonsense.
At the end of the day - the fastest one wins. I am, in almost every case, faster and more automated than any other shop I have interfaced with (big and small). They make all kinds of claims that they know how to do it better, faster, etc because their shop is bigger and has more experience....yet they are slower in every regard. They take longer to program, longer to setup, and scrap more parts. In the end, they have critical changes (information) scattered all over the shop and in the heads of the various people involved. That makes repeating the job far more difficult. If you are not capturing all the lessons learned while making a new part, you will be required to learn it all again the next time you do that part or one similar.
My process does not require anyone to remember anything as it is embedded in the system itself. We very rarely repeat mistakes. At 43 years old, multiple businesses, etc.....I am only interested in performance, not an allegiance to legacy workflows.
"Can't do basic addition without a calculator" if you've Computer why you need Calculator?
Hey John, just FYI- in general I have found that chamfer dimensions are called out normal to the surface being chamfered, ie not the hypotenuse.
Alex Kern was just going to say that.
I agree. I found this quote from ASME Y14.5-2009
1.8.15 Chamfers. Chamfers are dimensioned by a linear dimension and an angle, or by two linear dimensions...
Where an angle and a linear dimension are specified the linear dimension is the distance from the indicated surface of the part to the start of the chamfer.
Of course that might not matter if the drawing calls out a .010 length on the chamfer but most drawing in the US should be using the Y14.5-2009 standard for their drawings.
Yeah, I found that odd that John was using the hypotenuse. The reason Normal to the surface is used, is because you need a way to measure it.
gredangeo
Has nothing to do with measuring and everything to do with making it easier on the machinists. It’s so they don’t have to do the trig to get the right size chamfer flat.
It’s no more difficult to measure the hypotenuse than it is to measure the rise and run.
I don't have a convenient way to measure a chamfer on the Hypotenuse. I could use the verniers and measure with that Normal to the chamfer's surface, but that is inaccurate as it gets.
One thing I didn't hear mention was to watch your leads in and leads out give yourself plenty of room so the tip doesn't come in contact on the way in or out
I wonder how noticeable the spike in sales at Lakeshore Carbide or MariTool is when a new tool is described :) This one looks pretty useful.
Wish I had this video two days ago when I was figuring this out! I'm sure i'll revisit this tutorial often, thanks again for the content.
Just want to point out you can turn down the shank on the hss dovetail cutter with carbide if you need more clearance.
Cool to see your original products in the display cabinet :-)
(@5:20 or so) also, this tool has 2 angled cutting surfaces, so you can chamfer both the top and bottom side of the stock without changing tools (again, as John said, if you just need an edge-break-type chamfer.) Just an FYI, here. 😎
It might have been that the tips of your hss cutter had some wear on them. We usualy use wear compensation for this kind of jobs. We checked our HSS dovetail cutter after some time on the tool probe and it showed that the diameter was smaller for about 1 mm for out 25 mm mill.
Harvey tools used to sell backside corner rounding tools, though they are not in the latest catalog, they are great for edge breaks when a chamfer is not specifically called out, corner rounds make parts feel better in the hand IMHO.
Vmc750
They still make them.
www.harveytool.com/prod/Corner-Rounding-End-Mills/Specialty-Profiles/Browse-Our-Products_200/Corner-Rounding-End-Mills---Back-Corner-Rounding-End-Mills---Flared_54.aspx
If you note on the Mari-tool webpage. The diameter tolerance is +\- .015. That dovetail cutter probably has similar tolerances on it, which explains why it didn’t cut right the first time
+/- .015" is pretty bad. Kinda hard to maintain a decent chamfer with a .030" movement.
gredangeo
Well it’s not like the same cutter constantly varies +\- .015 😆
How much wear do you really put on a dovetail cutter?? Hundreds or thousands of parts before it needs changing out. Then just needs the diameter offsets dialed in after a change. And with modern tool setters, that’s a few seconds to get the true diameter.
The problem is with grabbing a new cutter. The diameter has potentially changed again. So you have to back it off and walk it in again, so you don't go oversize. Also, at our shop, we don't have a tool presetter. Kinda behind on that.
gredangeo
Cutter diameter changes with every new cutter you grab. Even high priced carbide endmills have a +\- tolerance they’re ground to. Usually +000/ -.0015.
So there’s still a change in diameter you must account for.
And barring a toolsetter, a tri anvil micrometer will do for odd number of teeth cutters and a standard micrometer for even number of teeth.
@@occamssawzall3486 If the tool grinders had good equipment and professional operators the tool would be on size. Can you trust a tool manufacturer that has looser tolerances than chinese 2$ cutters?
You can replicate the form of a single point threadmill with a chamfer mill with a custom shank. You don't have absolute control over the geometry though.
great timing! was just about to do this on a production part!.. how about back chamfering holes? any advice on linking moves to get it to plunge in the center of the hole? I've seen the option to plunge on center of a hole a few times but wonder where to find it sometimes as well.
I can't give any advice for Fusion but, you probably need to manually get to depth, arc in, circle the bottom edge arc out, and back track your way out. I've never heard of a CAM program that had an out of the box operation type for easy programming something like that. If you want to get fancy, you could write a custom subprogram/user cycle and pass in some variables. I've seen it done with custom drill bodies that had a set of chamfer inserts for the top of the hole (plunge) and a set in the drill body that would back chamfer (circle interpolation)... we used a custom operation type in CAM, integrated with the post and a user cycle in the control.
Hi John, I am stucked on backside chamfer in a hole which is on a pipe (I need chamfer the hole from the inside in the pipe). I have 4th axis so it posible to use it. Trace work fine on upper chamfer, but from the bottom of the curved hole edge it doesn't work. Have you got an idea how to do that?
Was that double cutter hitting the part as it moved down into position?
u cant use the chamfer cycle in fusion for backside chamfer?
Lifesaver!!! Thanks!
How do you touch off on tool probe with these chamfer tools?
How much time do you spend in fusion in a week
Hi, NYC CNC,, I have milling head maximat 11 that I broke plastic gear on it
Is it possible to order from you to make me one
I can send you the old one for you to much. Please let me know. Thanks Ilya
This is going to save us a ton of time no the parts we make... Now to design fixturing that allows full access to the bottom edge!
What about backside fillet tool? Does those exist? I think a fillet is going to feel better in the hand than a chanfer.
Yes they do as well as a variety of full round form tools to radius top and bottom in one shot. You have to have faced that to get the blend right but that's already fairly true of plain ol corner rounders.
you dont need a spread sheet just divide by Sqrt(2)
Hurco folks, don't forget to define the tool in the machine as a t-slot/dovetail/saw. The interrupt button is your best friend until it isnt.
Dude I need a brass rail!
Wednesday Widget video but it’s not wednesday and there is no widget?
naturalorange tool test Tuesday??
Interesting, although I'll never operate a CNC machine in my home shop.
Jeffry Blackmon I use the same tool and method on manual mills too, saves time by not reindexing the part when you flip it.
Lol every week these come out earlier and earlier. Not necessarily a bad thing though...:)
I have a single insert chamfer tool I can chamfer both edges with 1 tool. No need for a wasted tool change.
Dave Mcmasters
I have a 5-axis. What’s a chamfer tool? 😆
Post a link to that tool?
I made a couple videos about chamfering that might interest y'all. (I'm not as good of a presenter/orator as John, but I think the ideas I present are pretty cool anyway.)
RUclips is pretty strict about posting links, so I'll post them as a reply to this comment.
A quick aside: I have asked John in the past if he's cool with me posting links and he said it was (also, I think this is the first time I've done it).
The first video shows how to get the perfect chamfer parameters by using expressions in Fusion 360. (works with back chamfers and also non-45-degree chamfers too!)
ruclips.net/video/9i_ZkqGy9tQ/видео.html
And the second shows a good way to speed up the plunge (which John mentions can be a bit slow). People have complained about this video being drawn out... Sorry, deal with it.
ruclips.net/video/m9FzTPoUZeA/видео.html
I know this type of tooling as a dove tail.
im baffled that you really uses inches! in this line of work, millimeter is the way to go!
one word... 'MURICA
No, inches are the way to go! When you know how to use them, it makes more sense!
hell no! one firht of a quarter of an inch is not logical or senceable than millimeter! there no way around it! simple 10's. 0,0001x10= 0,001! etc etc!
@balooc2 It doesn't make a difference what system you use. Yes metric is based on 10s but more often than not, fractions of 1mm must be used in precision machining. As a result you are no longer based on 10s so it really doesn't make a difference.
.0254mm = .001in
.0508mm = .002in
.0762mm = .003in
In the above example it would appear that imperial is easier and more logical when it comes to precision fits and tolerances.
but...
.02mm =.0007in
.03mm =.0011in
.04mm =.0016in
now metric seems more logical
So you see it really doesn't matter. They're just numbers.
Not when you live in America. Prints in metric are concerted to inches. Then we'd have to scrap our mics and buy metric ones. Not going to happen! Even my machine I work on converts everything from metric to inches. This isn't nasa over here.
Why isn't this talked about more? Just saved me a headache
In my experience, those HSS dovetail cutters are junk on dimensions. Complete garbage. Maritool has good ones sourced, but I generally stick with Harvey or AB if you want something actually built to the dimensions it claims to be.
Wait.....are you the ammo nyc guy
Motor rider Haha I said that in Larry's video. I asked Larry if this was his brother or something lol
Round hole
The company I work for doesn't want to buy a CAD/CAM program. I wish they would. I have to trig all this stuff out, and write it all on paper. Then type it on the machine. And no, they won't hook a computer up to the machine. I have asked. It's like they're looking to fail. They're stuck in their ways. I've used ezcam in the past. It's a relatively cheap program, and It will get the job done. But, they won't even use that.
Gregg
Then you should find a new company.
A shop like that will not survive much longer unless they’re just running the same 10 or so parts over and over again. Even then. Contracts eventually end.
4 people like this comment is the first shock. Read my reply to Gregg, i'm sure you will get the main point. What you have said is incorrect. New production is valued at an all time low. No matter how fast you make it you will still be paid terrible money in comparison to 5 years ago. Repairing complex tools primarily for the oil industry, now there is a money maker.
Richie Bhoy
I disagree. Oil industry work is good money, but can be fickle like aerospace work. Booming one minute and dead the next.
Short run, fast turn around prototyping is huge money right now.
Production in the US is fairly bust. China can almost always do it cheaper.
There’s a huge demand for small quantity R&D prototype parts in the US right now and will be for the foreseeable future.
Oil industry repair is a close second IMO, but varies greatly by physical location. Here in New England, there’s practically zero oil industry work and would be hard pressed to make a living at it up here. R&D prototypes however are booming.
Fascinating discussion. Is the booming R&D prototypes sector for parts or complete designs? If you were going to tool up a shop in this area, would you go more in on additive or subtractive machining? I'm looking forward to IMTS this year, to see how it has changed over the last two, with an interest in small R&D shop work.
Kent VanderVelden the company I work for is based in Nesconset New York. They do vacuum fixture work. All in house designs. Few jobs have tight tolerances. We don't do any deburring of any kind. I break the edges on the machine. And everything we do is in the negative Machining. We have one old Ikegai with FANUC T6 control. And two Okuma's. All three directly program on the keypad. Which sometimes it's frustrating knowing that CAD programs like this exist.
Don't accidentally ruin one of the excuses for a 5 axis machine.
Doug Hall
Nah. Can still use a 5-axis to win bets like milling a 60deg c-sink with a 90deg spot drill 😁
9:35 Meh Japan? If it's not made in the US it's crap? That's naive to say the least. The best tools/machines in this industry are made in Japan.