spoilers for the Red Dead Franchise if you haven't played it. The most well-done revenge quest for me is RDR. Because it's never the explicit message of the games but once you realize and make the connection it recontextualizes so many decisions from the first game. Looking at just the first game it seems a story where john is forced to kill his former brothers in arms in a false belief that in doing so, he may escape the chains of his past. Still, the government kills him because he is still a remnant of that past that he tried to escape. At the end John's son successfully avenges his father. Similarly, in RDR2 John avenges Arthur. But Arthur never believed in revenge and actively discourages it throughout the game. And his warnings come to fruition in the credits (which most people skip since its over 1/2 an hour) when we see that it was John's revenge on Arthur's killer that brought the government down on him. This recontextualizes Jack's revenge which once seemed like a happy ending and makes it an utter tragedy where bother Arthur and John died to give Jack a chance only for him to waste it and likely end up killed in a similar way to John. This becomes even more interesting when you compare it to Red Dead Revolver which is the most straight forward revenge quest ever that treats the act as a good thing.
I wish I could have found this video sooner. You are one of the very few people who discusses the revenge theme in depth and analyzes the difference it was portrayed in other media. I have my take on this subject. I have said this before and at this point I sound like a broken record, but I cannot emphasize enough on this very topic related TLOU 2 so here I go once again. The people’s reaction/perception of the revenge theme that was portrayed in the game was particularly fascinating, disturbing, and informative. Many people reacted negatively of Ellie sparing Abby and goes on the tangent of “because revenge bad…” or “Its okay I forgive you…” blah blah blah. One of the main reasons why was because many felt Joel’s death was left unavenged. What is so fascinating about these people’s comments and their tones of hate/bitterness reflects on how we perceive revenge in general (on the scale that involves taking away somebody you love). I have done some additional thinkings and analysis since I wrote the last essay comments and will add them now. What I said before is that a lot of people reacted this way with all those comments is because many people are too used to what I call “glorified/romanticized revenge stories”. Basically the revenge journey was portrayed as a glamorous/heroic endeavor and that the villain to kill is genuinely an evil individual who has the “they deserve to die/suffer” mentality. Something that add to this mentality that we often experience is the villain’s presence and threat. Often times these villains in these stories present actual threat to the hero or a certain group of people so there’s often a practical side of enacting vengeance upon them. Those tropes are what makes those typical revenge stories so easy to indulge. Additionally, tropes like the hero go badass mode and slaughter the enemies in their way with intense action scenes and gore/violence makes them the icing on the cake. Our desensitization to violence and gore also contributes to our indulgence. These romanticized revenge stories don’t really make us consider the consequences for the heroes which often result in the walking away scot-free or riding off to the sunset, generally on a good note and make us feel satisfied. For revenge stories that DO explore the various consequences for the audience, they’re often either drowned out by the actions/violence displayed or that the heroes are emotionally stoic/numb to the violence (which was not the case for Ellie/Abby), or sometimes the consequences are the afterthought after when the heroes completes the deed. We have already had SO many stories that makes the revenge stories glorified in movies and games already. Movies like Conan the Barbarian, Licence to Kill (007), The Crow, Gladiator, Kill Bill (1-2), Inglorious Basterds, True Grit, Django Unchained, John Wick, The Equalizer 2, The Expendables 2, Death Wish, Rambo: Last Blood, No Remorse, Wrath of Man, The Northman and most likely Monkey Man. Games includes God of War (1-3), GTA 4, Dishonored, Sleeping Dogs, Watch Dogs, Prototype 2, Red Dead Redemption 2, Ghost of Tsushima, and Sifu (initially). Some of these examples don’t really delve into the consequences of their actions or the consequences are an afterthought/drowned out by actions. Naturally, we enjoy these kinds of glorified revenge stories because they are EMOTIONALLY APPEALING and CATHARTIC, which brings to my next point. These revenge stories often serve as power fantasy for escapism, soothing our fears/vulnerability and appeals to our egos. Most of the examples I listed above do just that. One of the reasons why so many people find TLOU 2’s revenge approach so controversial was because it did not intentionally make us feel powerful. This was already demonstrated after Abby kills Joel. The real change and growth for Abby was when she chooses to help Lev and Yara. Vengeance did not make either Ellie or Abby powerful, only further damage to them emotionally and their relationships (something a lot of people seems to have a hard time to accept). There was nothing wrong with indulging with romanticized revenge power fantasies (I know I enjoy occasional good old fashioned glorified revenge stories), so you might ask what’s wrong with these formulas. Most people might say nothing, but I beg to differ. Typical glorified revenge stories formulas has left us some potentially altering effects in terms of perceptions. These stories are telling us that revenge is the answer, its cool to slaughter your enemies standing in your way in a stylish fashion, and you will find peace if you kill the person who enacted the injustice against you. The problems is that this typical formula in revenge stories can give us false misleading notions of how humans’ psyche works. But a further potential problem can arise is when people think that glorified revenge acts (killing the wrong doer anyway) can be replicated in real life. If something unfortunately as catastrophic as what happened to you like those examples or like Ellie/Abby, here are my questions. Is real life revenge glorified like movies/games? Will I feel better if I kill the person who wronged me? Will I walk away without consequences (external or internal)? If yes, then ask yourself “Do I want to find out? Can I afford to find out? If you ask me, I pray we don’t. No matter who you are, where you are, your circumstances, I hope you don’t find out. And unfortunately in the real world, there were already too much people who had to find out the hard way. While the desire of vengeance is a very human feeling, it is not an experience that we should ideally experience (especially with the desire to kill the wrongdoer for killing a loved or a situation with similar gravity).
You’re so right about the audience reaction to tlou2 it was simultaneously disheartening and in a way proves the point of the game. I just hope some of the ppl that reacted so negatively have taken the time to think things over and question these topics in the own lives like we both obviously have lol. You could straight up turn this comment into its own video essay, thank u for sharing
your analysis and the quotes from The Last of Us Part II during the sociopolitical differences section hits different if you frame it under the game's allegory for the israeli perspective of their occupation and attitudes to violence. emmanuel maiberg wrote about it for vice around the time the game dropped. the essentialistic groupings/tribalism of Part II and how it structures the cycle of revenge is baked in colonial justifications of occupation and worse. while Part II omits colonial omnipresence/legacy by making the wlf as vulnerable, striving, and 'necessarily' violent as the seraphites, Assassin's Creed Origins appears to do the inverse and emphasise the power disparity present in the struggle for liberation from a colonial power.
Yeah i honestly thought it was a little in bad taste to relate the two game worlds back to what’s going on in Palestine because as u kinda mentioned, the level playing field of the wlf and seraphites is so different to the ongoing genocide, but it is certainly an important element to be aware esp when it comes to Neil himself being Israeli
Yeah like I mentioned in another comment I thought it was in bad taste to discuss those real world applications to the game,, I totally agree w you and at the same time it’s certainly a layered issue,, I think Neil is a Zionist that tried and failed to understand the power imbalance surrounding the conflict of his people, but instead made a game that discussed a different type of cycle of violence. Anyways free Palestine
Amazing video, thanks for covering in such depth and not just going "violence bad". :)
oh HELL yes, youre the most underrated channel i follow
You’re too kind!!!
Pretty good you earned a new subscriber
spoilers for the Red Dead Franchise if you haven't played it. The most well-done revenge quest for me is RDR. Because it's never the explicit message of the games but once you realize and make the connection it recontextualizes so many decisions from the first game. Looking at just the first game it seems a story where john is forced to kill his former brothers in arms in a false belief that in doing so, he may escape the chains of his past. Still, the government kills him because he is still a remnant of that past that he tried to escape. At the end John's son successfully avenges his father. Similarly, in RDR2 John avenges Arthur. But Arthur never believed in revenge and actively discourages it throughout the game. And his warnings come to fruition in the credits (which most people skip since its over 1/2 an hour) when we see that it was John's revenge on Arthur's killer that brought the government down on him. This recontextualizes Jack's revenge which once seemed like a happy ending and makes it an utter tragedy where bother Arthur and John died to give Jack a chance only for him to waste it and likely end up killed in a similar way to John. This becomes even more interesting when you compare it to Red Dead Revolver which is the most straight forward revenge quest ever that treats the act as a good thing.
I literally just started the game so 🙈🙈🙈 but I’ll certainly come back to this when I’m done lol, thank u for commenting!
People, let’s share this one & get more traffic moving in this direction! Good job!!
Thank u for the love and support always 😇😇😇
I wish I could have found this video sooner. You are one of the very few people who discusses the revenge theme in depth and analyzes the difference it was portrayed in other media. I have my take on this subject.
I have said this before and at this point I sound like a broken record, but I cannot emphasize enough on this very topic related TLOU 2 so here I go once again. The people’s reaction/perception of the revenge theme that was portrayed in the game was particularly fascinating, disturbing, and informative. Many people reacted negatively of Ellie sparing Abby and goes on the tangent of “because revenge bad…” or “Its okay I forgive you…” blah blah blah. One of the main reasons why was because many felt Joel’s death was left unavenged. What is so fascinating about these people’s comments and their tones of hate/bitterness reflects on how we perceive revenge in general (on the scale that involves taking away somebody you love). I have done some additional thinkings and analysis since I wrote the last essay comments and will add them now. What I said before is that a lot of people reacted this way with all those comments is because many people are too used to what I call “glorified/romanticized revenge stories”. Basically the revenge journey was portrayed as a glamorous/heroic endeavor and that the villain to kill is genuinely an evil individual who has the “they deserve to die/suffer” mentality. Something that add to this mentality that we often experience is the villain’s presence and threat. Often times these villains in these stories present actual threat to the hero or a certain group of people so there’s often a practical side of enacting vengeance upon them. Those tropes are what makes those typical revenge stories so easy to indulge. Additionally, tropes like the hero go badass mode and slaughter the enemies in their way with intense action scenes and gore/violence makes them the icing on the cake. Our desensitization to violence and gore also contributes to our indulgence. These romanticized revenge stories don’t really make us consider the consequences for the heroes which often result in the walking away scot-free or riding off to the sunset, generally on a good note and make us feel satisfied. For revenge stories that DO explore the various consequences for the audience, they’re often either drowned out by the actions/violence displayed or that the heroes are emotionally stoic/numb to the violence (which was not the case for Ellie/Abby), or sometimes the consequences are the afterthought after when the heroes completes the deed. We have already had SO many stories that makes the revenge stories glorified in movies and games already. Movies like Conan the Barbarian, Licence to Kill (007), The Crow, Gladiator, Kill Bill (1-2), Inglorious Basterds, True Grit, Django Unchained, John Wick, The Equalizer 2, The Expendables 2, Death Wish, Rambo: Last Blood, No Remorse, Wrath of Man, The Northman and most likely Monkey Man. Games includes God of War (1-3), GTA 4, Dishonored, Sleeping Dogs, Watch Dogs, Prototype 2, Red Dead Redemption 2, Ghost of Tsushima, and Sifu (initially). Some of these examples don’t really delve into the consequences of their actions or the consequences are an afterthought/drowned out by actions. Naturally, we enjoy these kinds of glorified revenge stories because they are EMOTIONALLY APPEALING and CATHARTIC, which brings to my next point.
These revenge stories often serve as power fantasy for escapism, soothing our fears/vulnerability and appeals to our egos. Most of the examples I listed above do just that. One of the reasons why so many people find TLOU 2’s revenge approach so controversial was because it did not intentionally make us feel powerful. This was already demonstrated after Abby kills Joel. The real change and growth for Abby was when she chooses to help Lev and Yara. Vengeance did not make either Ellie or Abby powerful, only further damage to them emotionally and their relationships (something a lot of people seems to have a hard time to accept).
There was nothing wrong with indulging with romanticized revenge power fantasies (I know I enjoy occasional good old fashioned glorified revenge stories), so you might ask what’s wrong with these formulas. Most people might say nothing, but I beg to differ. Typical glorified revenge stories formulas has left us some potentially altering effects in terms of perceptions. These stories are telling us that revenge is the answer, its cool to slaughter your enemies standing in your way in a stylish fashion, and you will find peace if you kill the person who enacted the injustice against you. The problems is that this typical formula in revenge stories can give us false misleading notions of how humans’ psyche works. But a further potential problem can arise is when people think that glorified revenge acts (killing the wrong doer anyway) can be replicated in real life. If something unfortunately as catastrophic as what happened to you like those examples or like Ellie/Abby, here are my questions. Is real life revenge glorified like movies/games? Will I feel better if I kill the person who wronged me? Will I walk away without consequences (external or internal)? If yes, then ask yourself “Do I want to find out? Can I afford to find out? If you ask me, I pray we don’t. No matter who you are, where you are, your circumstances, I hope you don’t find out. And unfortunately in the real world, there were already too much people who had to find out the hard way. While the desire of vengeance is a very human feeling, it is not an experience that we should ideally experience (especially with the desire to kill the wrongdoer for killing a loved or a situation with similar gravity).
You’re so right about the audience reaction to tlou2 it was simultaneously disheartening and in a way proves the point of the game. I just hope some of the ppl that reacted so negatively have taken the time to think things over and question these topics in the own lives like we both obviously have lol. You could straight up turn this comment into its own video essay, thank u for sharing
@@milesmemory Thank you man. Great minds think alike!
your analysis and the quotes from The Last of Us Part II during the sociopolitical differences section hits different if you frame it under the game's allegory for the israeli perspective of their occupation and attitudes to violence. emmanuel maiberg wrote about it for vice around the time the game dropped. the essentialistic groupings/tribalism of Part II and how it structures the cycle of revenge is baked in colonial justifications of occupation and worse. while Part II omits colonial omnipresence/legacy by making the wlf as vulnerable, striving, and 'necessarily' violent as the seraphites, Assassin's Creed Origins appears to do the inverse and emphasise the power disparity present in the struggle for liberation from a colonial power.
Yeah i honestly thought it was a little in bad taste to relate the two game worlds back to what’s going on in Palestine because as u kinda mentioned, the level playing field of the wlf and seraphites is so different to the ongoing genocide, but it is certainly an important element to be aware esp when it comes to Neil himself being Israeli
It's hard to reckon with TLOU2 Part II in it's great sympathy for the oppressed or general even handedness and Neil's rabid Zionism.
Yeah like I mentioned in another comment I thought it was in bad taste to discuss those real world applications to the game,, I totally agree w you and at the same time it’s certainly a layered issue,, I think Neil is a Zionist that tried and failed to understand the power imbalance surrounding the conflict of his people, but instead made a game that discussed a different type of cycle of violence. Anyways free Palestine