Tidebinder checks board state on the ability resolution, it will see the permanent is one types listed on it, and will then take all abilities from said permanent. Same way it works with the manlands.
Hi, could you in future detail the correction. I just watched the whole video yesterday and now have to watch it all again ;-) edit: after I watched, did you just remove the part of the reflexive trigger? so no new information in this one or did I miss something?
What happens to the Kaito after the turn ends (if TTB countered a loyalty ability)? Does it stay a creature? I'd assume no? And does it regain the loyalty abilities next turn?
I believe: It does not stay a creature when it's not Kaito's turn (since his ability doesn't make him a creature at that time anyway), but on his next turn it once again becomes a creature. He never has abilities again, including loyalty abilities, until Tidebinder leaves play.
Odd rules interaction question - if there's a 0/0 creature with 2 +1/+1 counters on it, and its controller has Unnatural Growth, then at the start of combat it becomes a 4/4. If a player then puts another +1/+1 counter on it, does it (unintuitively) become a 3/3 because the counter timestamp got updated?
I think doubling is defined as granting +X/+Y, where X was its power at the time and Y its toughness. Therefore at the end of your scenario, it's a 0/0 with 3 +1/+1 counters and a +2/+2 effect, so it would be 5/5. If doubling actually created an effect that constantly re-evaluated the P/T, then the rules process to determine P/T would have to specify if this is done before counters (in which case it doubles 0/0 in all cases and does nothing) or after (in which case it goes from 4/4 to 6/6 with the 3rd counter). Luckily there is no actual "doubling effect", just a doubling action that creates a simple +X/+Y effect. I assume you were thinking that the doubling action would create an effect like "this creature's final P/T is 4/4", but remember effects don't really do that, they set the base P/T and you still add counters to that after. If it did work that way it would definitely be confusing what to do on new counters - you're hypothesizing it simply cancels the "final P/T setting" I guess, and yeah to make that more intuitive they'd probably have to develop rules saying the counters "already included in the doubling" stay where they are but the new ones are applied on top of the doubling...but yeah luckily nothing actually sets P/T that way where it has to "include" existing P/T effects and then also allow for even more effects later.
It was about reflexive triggers. The example being used was Zoraline and I believe the original statement was that if you counter the reflexive trigger from Zoraline (so the players's paid Orzhov and 2 life) "When you do, return target nonland permanent with 3 mana value or less to the battlefield" Zoraline would keep her abilities so you have to counter the initial etb/attack trigger if you want to get rid of her abilities.
@@yargolocus4853 > 603.7e If an activated or triggered ability creates a delayed triggered ability, the source of that delayed triggered ability is the same as the source of that other ability. The controller of that delayed triggered ability is the player who controlled that other ability as it resolved. > 603.12. A resolving spell or ability may allow or instruct a player to take an action and create a triggered ability that triggers “when [a player] [does or doesn’t]” take that action or “when [something happens] this way.” These reflexive triggered abilities follow the rules for delayed triggered abilities (see rule 603.7), except that they’re checked immediately after being created and trigger based on whether the trigger event or events occurred earlier during the resolution of the spell or ability that created them. Reflexive and delayed triggers are handled the same so countering the reflexive trigger should disable all abilities on the bat
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
I judged a Standard RCQ the weekend Lost Caverns released, In five rounds of swiss I took 27 Judge calls involving Tidebinder 😅
Ty for correction judge dave i love you
What if a permanent is turned into an artifact after it's ability is on the stack but before tidebinder counters it?
Tidebinder checks board state on the ability resolution, it will see the permanent is one types listed on it, and will then take all abilities from said permanent. Same way it works with the manlands.
Hi, could you in future detail the correction. I just watched the whole video yesterday and now have to watch it all again ;-)
edit: after I watched, did you just remove the part of the reflexive trigger? so no new information in this one or did I miss something?
He removed the section on the bat. Its listed in the description
Hotlanta Goat
What happens to the Kaito after the turn ends (if TTB countered a loyalty ability)? Does it stay a creature? I'd assume no?
And does it regain the loyalty abilities next turn?
I believe: It does not stay a creature when it's not Kaito's turn (since his ability doesn't make him a creature at that time anyway), but on his next turn it once again becomes a creature. He never has abilities again, including loyalty abilities, until Tidebinder leaves play.
Odd rules interaction question - if there's a 0/0 creature with 2 +1/+1 counters on it, and its controller has Unnatural Growth, then at the start of combat it becomes a 4/4. If a player then puts another +1/+1 counter on it, does it (unintuitively) become a 3/3 because the counter timestamp got updated?
I think doubling is defined as granting +X/+Y, where X was its power at the time and Y its toughness. Therefore at the end of your scenario, it's a 0/0 with 3 +1/+1 counters and a +2/+2 effect, so it would be 5/5.
If doubling actually created an effect that constantly re-evaluated the P/T, then the rules process to determine P/T would have to specify if this is done before counters (in which case it doubles 0/0 in all cases and does nothing) or after (in which case it goes from 4/4 to 6/6 with the 3rd counter). Luckily there is no actual "doubling effect", just a doubling action that creates a simple +X/+Y effect.
I assume you were thinking that the doubling action would create an effect like "this creature's final P/T is 4/4", but remember effects don't really do that, they set the base P/T and you still add counters to that after. If it did work that way it would definitely be confusing what to do on new counters - you're hypothesizing it simply cancels the "final P/T setting" I guess, and yeah to make that more intuitive they'd probably have to develop rules saying the counters "already included in the doubling" stay where they are but the new ones are applied on top of the doubling...but yeah luckily nothing actually sets P/T that way where it has to "include" existing P/T effects and then also allow for even more effects later.
What was the mistake in the original video?
It was about reflexive triggers. The example being used was Zoraline and I believe the original statement was that if you counter the reflexive trigger from Zoraline (so the players's paid Orzhov and 2 life) "When you do, return target nonland permanent with 3 mana value or less to the battlefield" Zoraline would keep her abilities so you have to counter the initial etb/attack trigger if you want to get rid of her abilities.
@@Dot_Eleven so which on is right? does countering a reflexive trigger still strip abilities of the permanent?
@@yargolocus4853
> 603.7e If an activated or triggered ability creates a delayed triggered ability, the source of that delayed triggered ability is the same as the source of that other ability. The controller of that delayed triggered ability is the player who controlled that other ability as it resolved.
> 603.12. A resolving spell or ability may allow or instruct a player to take an action and create a triggered ability that triggers “when [a player] [does or doesn’t]” take that action or “when [something happens] this way.” These reflexive triggered abilities follow the rules for delayed triggered abilities (see rule 603.7), except that they’re checked immediately after being created and trigger based on whether the trigger event or events occurred earlier during the resolution of the spell or ability that created them.
Reflexive and delayed triggers are handled the same so countering the reflexive trigger should disable all abilities on the bat