I would never have thought to compare Gurthang to Anduril, which illustrates your point that Tolkien has a talent for refreshing tropes. And it made me realize that recontextualizing elements within the legendarium itself is partly responsible for how resonant it seems, even though it was probably an unconscious process. Ps: I thought Eol made himself a suit of galvorn armor? And he made at least one javelin....
You’re right about the armor; I forgot because it gets one tiny reference. The javelin I’m not sure about; did it say he made it or just that he carried it?
What a unique analysis! Gurthang is my absolute favorite weapon from the Silmarillion. Didn’t ever think to compare it to Narsil/Anduril! Tolkien is an incredible author!! This actually makes me wanna go back and read the Sil again…. And the LOTR…
I had noticed the breaking and reforging theme, and always thought of it as a mirror image to each other. Though I was always of a mind that Aragorn is in a way Turin reborn, except where Turin like Gurthang broke under the weight of his tragedy whereas Aragorn reforged his suffering and destiny into a new dawn, a new sword in the shape of Anduril. I kind of viewed the swords as extensions of the two figures, and that we were kind of supposed to look at the swords as counterparts to the lines of Hador & Elendil respectively, and the principal figures of Turin & Aragorn. I do understand Tolkien just wanted to write some great tales, but he did work with themes and motifs so intelligently for it to have been entirely unconscious. Though that may just be my own hero-worship of him and Christopher showing. This video is one of your best and hate that it took me a few days to find this masterpiece of yours!
Yeah well, it didn’t get a lot of views so the algorithm didn’t spread it around much. What I find interesting and what the general audience finds interesting is not always the same. 😅
I was hoping you'd do this comparison. Next mayhaps you'll discuss the parallels between the story of Elu Thingol and Melian up to the fall of Doriath and the theme of sovereignty and its loss in Celtic Faerie stories
@@TolkienLorePodcast that happens to be one of my areas of expertise. There's interesting parallels between Thingol when he stops listening to the advice of Melian which leads to the fall of Doriath and when a king loses the gift of sovereignty from the goddess and his lands and kingdom come to ruin. You see such things heavily in Irish and Welsh mythology, which is what leads me to believe Tolkien slipped the theme in his works
I agree with you in everything, but I believe there is a parallel between the swords that you missed. The parallel between the swords is similar because the sword parallels, not a nation or people, but specifically a single person...Turin. 1) The sword is created and then given into the hands of Thingol, and so is Turin. 2) Both are essentially orphaned and abandoned for years before finding new purpose. 3) For a time, essential the same time, both sword and man are functionally useless. 4) In Nargathrond, both find new names and new lives. 5) Both kill the ones their companions and are cursed by dark intellects more powerful than either. 6) Both break at the slaying of Glaurung. 7) Both Turin and the sword are restored at the end of all things to repay vengeance upon Morgoth.
This was good stuff, of which i had not thought, you have deliniated thedifferences and similarites well.I would maybe say as an answer to why does he reuse themes, he found it important to pay homage to the stories which shaped him. Thanks and keep up the good work.
When I read it for the first time I thought of it as much like a ‘what if’ and playing with different outcomes. Teaching a moral of action and outcome.
The other day I was thinking of how the Hobbits, often called Halflings, even, were basically children before their quest, always talking about their elders, Bilbo, the Old Gaffer, etc. But after the War, their innocence was lost, and they returned to the Shire as adults, took leadership roles as adults, and heck, even Pippen and Merry physically grew during their quest, thanks to the Ent draught.
“Narsil” means “sun-sparkle”. Though it is interesting to note that Elendil’s sons are “Isildur” (moon lord), and “Anarion”(sun child). Eol made black armor, and probably his spear (the one he used to kill Aredhel). The ironic parallel with Fëanor is real too: Eol invented the black metal, called galvorn. It is perhaps relevant to note that “galvorn” means “black light”.
I don't necessarily agree that the parallels between Gurthang and Narsil aren't important. It's not about the broken sword itself, but this sort of parallelism is a mirror of the Ainulindulae. Songs have refrains. Each verse has the same notes underlying it. These parallels "work" because the similarity and differences between the two swords and the other sorts of parallels points to the power of Eru and the Great Music in the world, but also the freedom of the people within the stories.
Also there is the fact that Gurthang has a twin, so conceivably the remains of both swords could be collected and reforged together into a stronger even more magical sword (possibly by Aule, Morgoth [out of pride and as a grim trophy of the evil he did to Hurin/Turgon], Feanor, or even Eol himself).
What seems to be rather interesting, Arwen + Aragorn meeting was in fact probably the THIRD and the last: the first was Melian the Maia + Elwë the Elf, the second Lúthien (Maia-Elf) + Beren (Human). Arwen also has few drops of human blood and Aragorn few drops of elvish.
I think George Lucas explains it best when he says Star Wars is "like poetry, it rhymes". It is characteristic of an epic saga for events, character actions and decisions, and particular plot elements to repeat, or at least to echo each other, due to the circular nature of the universal balance of powers, and out of a fateful wish the Universe enforces towards a positive resolution - even when things turn bad.
I was thinking about the parallelism in the Bible. I was about to say how unique that was except then it hit me that a lot of historical and mythical writings have parallelism in them. I don't wonder if that is something humans look for and build upon naturally without necessarily planning for it. In history that seems to happen. Even in the physical world that seems to happen. The field of biomimicry points out all the repeating patterns of creation. Now you've got me thinking about my journals and I wonder if I've repeated patterns throughout my life even if I built and improved upon them. Gosh, there's nothing new under the sun?
In versions of the Arthur legend, the sword in the stone was not special other than determining the rightful king. Arthur breaks it, then is given Excaliber/Caliburn (language of origin) by the lady in the lake. Similar motiff.
I can tell from my own experience - I once wrote a long story that will probably never be published - that an author may not even notice that they copied themselves, until months later when going over the text again. Not only that, the parallel events might have a different outcome. My character was supposed to overcome obstacles, make experiences, learn from that, and change his mindset from impulsive to thoughtful. Even though I first thought that each of the events he encountered were unique, I later noticed that some were twins in disguise. As I didn't want to go over all this again and swap these with something that might be not that new or unique, or maybe even worsening the story, I decided to leave them as they were. Since then I know how hard it is to write a really good story; and Tolkien has my highest respect even though I can see where his tropes came from. It is not so much what is used to write a story, as how well it is implemented, that makes the story worth reading.
Two master swords suddenly becoming brittle enough to break when someone falls on them sounds fishy. Swords are purposely forged not to be brittle. I wonder if the deaths of their owners affected their properties in some way? I thinking here ofa possible parallel with iron age weapons deliberately broken and left in watery places for the gods.
I was thinking about the parallelism in the Bible. I was about to say how unique that was except then it hit me that a lot of historical and mythical writings have parallelism in them. I don't wonder if that is something humans look for and build upon naturally without necessarily planning for it. In history that seems to happen. Even in the physical world that seems to happen. The field of biomimicry points out all the repeating patterns of creation. Now you've got me thinking about my journals and I wonder if I've repeated patterns throughout my life even if I built and improved upon them. Gosh, there's nothing new under the sun? I don't know whether to be frustrated or challenged
![Blox Fruits Dragon Rework Update [Full Stream]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EqDAp8udhm0/mqdefault.jpg)
Very first conference paper I gave was a short talk about Eol & Aredhel as the "upside down" of Beren & Luthien. Called it Ill-Met by Moonlight
I would never have thought to compare Gurthang to Anduril, which illustrates your point that Tolkien has a talent for refreshing tropes. And it made me realize that recontextualizing elements within the legendarium itself is partly responsible for how resonant it seems, even though it was probably an unconscious process.
Ps: I thought Eol made himself a suit of galvorn armor? And he made at least one javelin....
You’re right about the armor; I forgot because it gets one tiny reference. The javelin I’m not sure about; did it say he made it or just that he carried it?
What a unique analysis! Gurthang is my absolute favorite weapon from the Silmarillion. Didn’t ever think to compare it to Narsil/Anduril! Tolkien is an incredible author!! This actually makes me wanna go back and read the Sil again…. And the LOTR…
I had noticed the breaking and reforging theme, and always thought of it as a mirror image to each other. Though I was always of a mind that Aragorn is in a way Turin reborn, except where Turin like Gurthang broke under the weight of his tragedy whereas Aragorn reforged his suffering and destiny into a new dawn, a new sword in the shape of Anduril. I kind of viewed the swords as extensions of the two figures, and that we were kind of supposed to look at the swords as counterparts to the lines of Hador & Elendil respectively, and the principal figures of Turin & Aragorn.
I do understand Tolkien just wanted to write some great tales, but he did work with themes and motifs so intelligently for it to have been entirely unconscious. Though that may just be my own hero-worship of him and Christopher showing.
This video is one of your best and hate that it took me a few days to find this masterpiece of yours!
Yeah well, it didn’t get a lot of views so the algorithm didn’t spread it around much. What I find interesting and what the general audience finds interesting is not always the same. 😅
I was hoping you'd do this comparison. Next mayhaps you'll discuss the parallels between the story of Elu Thingol and Melian up to the fall of Doriath and the theme of sovereignty and its loss in Celtic Faerie stories
Alas, Celtic stories are an area I’m sadly lacking in, though I’d love to know more.
@@TolkienLorePodcast that happens to be one of my areas of expertise. There's interesting parallels between Thingol when he stops listening to the advice of Melian which leads to the fall of Doriath and when a king loses the gift of sovereignty from the goddess and his lands and kingdom come to ruin. You see such things heavily in Irish and Welsh mythology, which is what leads me to believe Tolkien slipped the theme in his works
Pmpp
I agree with you in everything, but I believe there is a parallel between the swords that you missed. The parallel between the swords is similar because the sword parallels, not a nation or people, but specifically a single person...Turin.
1) The sword is created and then given into the hands of Thingol, and so is Turin.
2) Both are essentially orphaned and abandoned for years before finding new purpose.
3) For a time, essential the same time, both sword and man are functionally useless.
4) In Nargathrond, both find new names and new lives.
5) Both kill the ones their companions and are cursed by dark intellects more powerful than either.
6) Both break at the slaying of Glaurung.
7) Both Turin and the sword are restored at the end of all things to repay vengeance upon Morgoth.
Well that’s a parallel between Turin and Hurthang, not between Gurthang and Narsil.
This was good stuff, of which i had not thought, you have deliniated thedifferences and similarites well.I would maybe say as an answer to why does he reuse themes, he found it important to pay homage to the stories which shaped him. Thanks and keep up the good work.
When I read it for the first time I thought of it as much like a ‘what if’ and playing with different outcomes. Teaching a moral of action and outcome.
The other day I was thinking of how the Hobbits, often called Halflings, even, were basically children before their quest, always talking about their elders, Bilbo, the Old Gaffer, etc. But after the War, their innocence was lost, and they returned to the Shire as adults, took leadership roles as adults, and heck, even Pippen and Merry physically grew during their quest, thanks to the Ent draught.
“Narsil” means “sun-sparkle”. Though it is interesting to note that Elendil’s sons are “Isildur” (moon lord), and “Anarion”(sun child).
Eol made black armor, and probably his spear (the one he used to kill Aredhel). The ironic parallel with Fëanor is real too: Eol invented the black metal, called galvorn. It is perhaps relevant to note that “galvorn” means “black light”.
I don't necessarily agree that the parallels between Gurthang and Narsil aren't important. It's not about the broken sword itself, but this sort of parallelism is a mirror of the Ainulindulae. Songs have refrains. Each verse has the same notes underlying it.
These parallels "work" because the similarity and differences between the two swords and the other sorts of parallels points to the power of Eru and the Great Music in the world, but also the freedom of the people within the stories.
Also there is the fact that Gurthang has a twin, so conceivably the remains of both swords could be collected and reforged together into a stronger even more magical sword (possibly by Aule, Morgoth [out of pride and as a grim trophy of the evil he did to Hurin/Turgon], Feanor, or even Eol himself).
Enjoyed this. Thanks
What seems to be rather interesting, Arwen + Aragorn meeting was in fact probably the THIRD and the last: the first was Melian the Maia + Elwë the Elf, the second Lúthien (Maia-Elf) + Beren (Human). Arwen also has few drops of human blood and Aragorn few drops of elvish.
Another clever analysis, man. It's like you say, it's there but it's not obvious, so you need to be dig deeper to get the parallelisms.
I think George Lucas explains it best when he says Star Wars is "like poetry, it rhymes".
It is characteristic of an epic saga for events, character actions and decisions, and particular plot elements to repeat, or at least to echo each other, due to the circular nature of the universal balance of powers, and out of a fateful wish the Universe enforces towards a positive resolution - even when things turn bad.
I was thinking about the parallelism in the Bible. I was about to say how unique that was except then it hit me that a lot of historical and mythical writings have parallelism in them. I don't wonder if that is something humans look for and build upon naturally without necessarily planning for it. In history that seems to happen. Even in the physical world that seems to happen. The field of biomimicry points out all the repeating patterns of creation. Now you've got me thinking about my journals and I wonder if I've repeated patterns throughout my life even if I built and improved upon them. Gosh, there's nothing new under the sun?
There’s a reason that saying is so common-it’s pretty much impossible to find anything truly new.
Nice Vid!
In versions of the Arthur legend, the sword in the stone was not special other than determining the rightful king. Arthur breaks it, then is given Excaliber/Caliburn (language of origin) by the lady in the lake. Similar motiff.
I can tell from my own experience - I once wrote a long story that will probably never be published - that an author may not even notice that they copied themselves, until months later when going over the text again. Not only that, the parallel events might have a different outcome. My character was supposed to overcome obstacles, make experiences, learn from that, and change his mindset from impulsive to thoughtful. Even though I first thought that each of the events he encountered were unique, I later noticed that some were twins in disguise. As I didn't want to go over all this again and swap these with something that might be not that new or unique, or maybe even worsening the story, I decided to leave them as they were.
Since then I know how hard it is to write a really good story; and Tolkien has my highest respect even though I can see where his tropes came from. It is not so much what is used to write a story, as how well it is implemented, that makes the story worth reading.
Eol made a set of armor for him self out of galvorn, a kind of metal that he invented.
👍
Two master swords suddenly becoming brittle enough to break when someone falls on them sounds fishy. Swords are purposely forged not to be brittle. I wonder if the deaths of their owners affected their properties in some way?
I thinking here ofa possible parallel with iron age weapons deliberately broken and left in watery places for the gods.
This reminds me of Sokka's black meteorite sword from "Avatar the Last Airbender".
I was thinking about the parallelism in the Bible. I was about to say how unique that was except then it hit me that a lot of historical and mythical writings have parallelism in them. I don't wonder if that is something humans look for and build upon naturally without necessarily planning for it. In history that seems to happen. Even in the physical world that seems to happen. The field of biomimicry points out all the repeating patterns of creation. Now you've got me thinking about my journals and I wonder if I've repeated patterns throughout my life even if I built and improved upon them. Gosh, there's nothing new under the sun? I don't know whether to be frustrated or challenged
YES! YES! YES! I have always believed that the book of Enoch was a huge inspiration for Tolkien??