You forgot many more advantages of mechanical shifting: 1. Mechanical is significantly cheaper 2. Mechanical is much more environmentally friendly 3. Mechanical doesn't need to be charged 4. Electronic components have a finite life. The electronics in an electronic system will fail after a number of years 5. Batteries have a finite life both in terms of years and number of cycles. Will you be able to buy replacement batteries in 20 years? Probably not. Will you be able to buy replacement cables? Yes. 6. Mechanical is lighter
'2. Mechanical is much more environmentally friendly' - I would disagree with you there. You need to change cables regularly to keep the shifting smooth - a lot more waste is produced during the lifetime of a mechanical groupset than electronic.
As a person with multiple sclerosis-with most of my nerve pain in my hands-tiny, effortless eTap button pushing lets me ride longer days without throwing levers over many hours in the saddle.
Another huge disadvantage of electronic groupsets are the longevity. When I buy a >$12 k race bike, i expect to enjoy riding it for 10, 20 or even 30 years. The battery will go flat in 10 years and you will not be able to get a battery replacement for your 2023 Dura Ace Di2 groupset in 2033. Don't believe me, try getting a 2013 Dura Ace Di2 battery replacement now. You cant get one. You need to replace the entire groupset as everything has changed. Compare that with my 1999 Dura Ace 7700 groupset and my 2010 Dura Ace 7900 Groupset. They shift as well today as my 1st ride out of my LBS. And will shift the same indefinitely (obviously with regular maintenance). You cant say the same with any version of an electronic groupset.
Agree, I have just reused my 1980s suntour ratchet bar end shifters from my old Dawes Galaxy and paired them with modern Shimano Deore front and rear changers and they work perfectly, slick and smooth, thats components 40 years apart and they are 100% compatible, I do not think electronic systems will have that kind of longevity or compatibility
This exactly - the first time they decide to change a firmware or APP compatibility - that expensive piece of tech will be useless, not to mention replacement costs of components that will be purposefully discontinued. - sheesh. What a scam! and they got people paying big bucks for it!
@@Afrikakorps68 In general, there are 2 camps that can afford a >$12k road bike - 1) those who are super rich and don't have to worry about money 2) those who are well off in this 1st world country, but are well off because they know the value of money - some say these people are thifty or even cheap. Again in general, those in camp 1) don't ride road bikes constantly and will give up this "fad", once they get bored and find a new toy or go on an amazing vacation because they have the money. Those in camp 2) are real cycling enthusiasts and/ or weekend racers. Canp 2 guys don't consider camp 1 guys as cyclist and can drop them any time and any where.
Yeah try and get anything for 2013 Durace DI2 like and a handlebar cable kit, NOT AVAILABLE. Why wouldn't you want to keep a great bike. Shimano has a 5 year redundancy on their products. Shit
The answer is yes. I have more entry lvl groupset (claris) want to upgrade but the price for mechanical 2x12 or 2x11 105 are around 600€ and for the di2 2x12 105 it is just 870€ . 270€ is the difference between them. That is not much at all. So I will most certainly go with di2 .
@@lloydlostvegas8785well it is about how much money u can spend. Cause mechanical works still but I believe the feel of that electronic one had to be something else entirely. And what for do we sit on our bikes ? Enjoyment of the ride the feeling u get from it. And for that we buy better tires, wheels etc. I'm looking for upgrade from Claris. Shimano 105 2x12 or 2x11 mechanical cost 600€, shimano 105 di2 2x12 870€ . It's no brainer really.
To me a bike and cycling itself is a mechanical thing/proces, independent of fuel or powersources.... adding electric components that need charging ruin that idea a bit. But that's just me, I definitely get the advantages for performance, no arguing there.
I agree. I'll deal with charging my Garmin and my lights, but I can keep riding efficiently even if they fail (I rarely ride in the dark on purpose). But I like the visceral feel and, yes, the sound of purely mechanical control. Full disclosure: I've never ridden Di2 or competing systems, and if I ever try them I might very well find myself impressed. That said, I can't imagine ever wanting to deal with fully integrated cabling and brake bleeding on what is supposed to be a very simple and easy-to-maintain device.
Innovation is always welcome! Think the cars without screen, or phones always on the cable because of the energy. The bikes really work with the mechanic functions but i think eletronic can be a good work, without maintenance, easy battery to carry on and substitute. I don't have eletronic bike, but i will be happy when i can use this!
@@gazzberg I think you're onto something there. The technology is already available. Batteries are rechargeable and dynamo hubs have been around for decades. Just need someone with the know how to pair them.
I totally think the same way. I love bicycles because they are economical, and they only depend on the cyclist energy, they don't need a fuel/charging infrastructure. I'm more of a purist cyclist, I definitely prefer the good old mechanical parts. The only electronic things I use on my bike are the headlight and rear lights, which are battery powered and need charging, BUT, they are accessories, I don't need them to ride my bicycle, if they discharge the bicycle will still be able to move normally, they are not essential for the bike to work, they are only complements. But I don't like the idea of swapping essential parts of bicycle like gear shifter, for electronic ones, I also don't like hydraulic brakes, I go full mechanic, they are more reliable and cheaper.
Nice video, but all of the positives you mentioned are extremely marginal in my view. I honestly think that for 99% of amateur riders who are not racing and want a day to day reliable, fuss free groupset, Shimano 105 mechanical is all that is needed. Any more than this is just bling and wasted money, the fundamental riding experience of your bike won’t change in any meaningful way. spend the money on a top quality wheelset instead.
One thing, dont try Di2. Just stay happy as things are. It honestly works so much better there's no comparison, no adjustments, no cable replacement, some since 2010 with out a touch.
Have not tried Di2 but have tried SRAM force AXS and my verdict was ‘meh’. Virtually no meaningful improvement over 105 mechanical. By the way my 2012 SRAM red mechanical groupset on my road bike is still working fine after 60,000 km. it never needs adjustment, still shifts and works perfectly. Electronic shifting is over hyped.
@@neilrobinson7965 I have all the groupsets, and SRAM AXS is fantastic, but di2 is just as phenomenal. I haven't touched any derailleur adjustments in almost 3 years on my Di2. I still like my mech groupsets, but I live in super cold temps part of the season and prefer electronic shifting. But to say it's marginally better is ridiculous...it's much. Necessary? well of course not...but it's wonderful. So I'll take electronic and a top quality wheelset too. Best of both worlds. mind you.....I still ride my mech bikes and they are great, but they're not as wonderful as electronic
@@Afrikakorps68 for me, the riding experience of a bike is defined by the frame, wheels and tyres. The marginal difference between a mechanical and an electronic group does not come into the equation for me. this is only my opinion and you think differently which of course is perfectly fine.
there is no real reason , if you aren't on a pro peloton, that one should NEED electronic shifting. You can ride, race, and do everything that an electronic groupset can do - on a mechanical groupset, at a fraction of the cost. The performance of that mechanical groupset vs an electronic one is frankly so marginal as to be non existent. Bike manufactures and component manufacturers alike sponsor pro teams with their latest kit. Why ? To sell products. Plain and simple. We don't all have sponsors throwing expensive kit at us David.
As a privateer, I want minimal maintenance. Once I set up etap, I haven't touched it. I ride in bad weather, and I ride a lot of hours. The system stays in check and I don't have to deal with cable stretch or any maintenance. Mechanical works fine, but in terms of maintenance, I've had less with electronic. Charge the batteries, out ya go.
Used Ultegra 10sp mech until last year - worked great. Now I use the new Ultegra 12sp Di2. Love the precision, reliability and not having to readjust the mech shifting once in a while. Garmin keeps me well informed before I need to charge. Never going back.
I'm still mechanical. My DA9100 is nice. Your comments on effort required to change especially in winter are true for the modern front derailleur, but my fleet of bikes has a few Tiagra 4700 drive trains. The front derailleur is amazing - so light, big leaver that doesn't look as good, but really light.
I'm tempted by electronic shifting, but one thing holds me back. And that's the planned obsolescence that's endemic in the bike industry. Let’s be clear about this - while other industries are under pressure to ensure that parts remain available for many years (in the interests of sustainability, the bike industry does appear (with very few exceptions) to “encourage” frequent bike purchases, partly through the deliberate restriction of the supply of parts for older models. They'll sell you a bike, and then, when you need a crucial proprietary replacement part, perhaps a couple of years after your initial bike purchase, your local bike shop staff will be shrugging their shoulders and telling you that part isn't available any more. I bought a fat bike last year (n+1 right?), and it's already off the road because the bike shop can't get the parts. Which is ridiculous! So I just know that something will go wrong with those electronic shifting components and I won't be able to find a replacement. I do hanker after a new bike but, as my wife said the other day, a Joules and his money are soon parted. I manage to sneak another bike into the garage very occasionally, but she hit the roof about the fat bike, so I think it’s much safer for me to stick to my existing mechanical geared bikes. In fact, as my wife keeps tell me, my racing days are over, so I really shouldn’t be spending cash on chasing marginal gains (yes, she knows all about marginal gains), and suggests that a bike should be capable of lasting me at least ten years or so, before buying a replacement. And you know what? I’m beginning to think she is right 😎
I hear you! Can't get a Di2 battery holder for my 3 yr old Cervelo. Granted, it's not a crucial part. But they don't seem to care about supplying replacement parts. I'll take my business elsewhere.
Just purchased a 2023 Orbea with a 105 di2 12 speed groupset. My other drivetrain choices for the same frame were -$700 for an 11 speed mechanical 105 groupset, -100 for an 11 speed mechanical Ultegra groupset or +1300 for an Ultegra di2 groupset. The latter had a slightly better fork, seat and wheelset but all the builds were otherwise identical and they all had the same frame. I think the 105 di2 represents the sweet spot in getting a fully modern drivetrain without spending silly money.
Another pro for mech groupsets 2011 - 2012 electronic shifters are not likely to outlast mechanical of the same tier and age. The same could be estimated as you move forward in time - a mech set will last longer
Great job! Take a bow, David!! I have ridden mechanical groupset bikes for over 40 years. When it comes to bikes you can call me a traditionalist. However, last year I bought my first bike with electronic shifting (11-speed Ultegra Di2) and will never go back. Such a joy for all the reasons David mentioned, especially since I live where the terrain is constantly changing gradient and I need to change gears often.
Almost certainly it is, and that could also be said for a professional bike fit or a very nice biking holiday. I just ordered a nearly bulletproof 650B gravel/adventure bike -- the whole bike, along with a couple of key upgrades and set of 700C wheels and tires for it -- for less than the price of a full 105 Di2 groupset.
I just swapped out my sram red etap bike for Ultegra mechnical. Cant really notice the speed difference in changing gears and it is easier and cheaper to maintain.
It’s noticeable if ur eagerly looking for a difference…. These guys keeps doing stuff to improve decimal performance improvements that almost doesnt exist. They exist but theyre not necessarily needed nor an essential.
I wanted to upgrade the Ultegra/105 on my cyclocross bike to electronics. However, the prices are still incredibly high - even if I wanted to get the bare minimum (no cassette, crankset, chain, brake calipers, pads and rotors) with majority of parts second hand I'm still looking at almost 700 Euros! For that price I can get a full nice second hand carbon road bike!
I’m so torn, the cycle to work scheme is rolling around again and I’m interested in the Orro Gold R800 and I can’t decide between the STC with 105 Di2 or the Evo with 105 mech. The points made in the video seem to lean more towards the electronic which being a tech nerd is very appealing but I feel like I would lose the ability to service it myself. Help!
As far as I'm aware, cycle sales have plummeted. On Forbes, "The Bicycle Association (BA) now says annual cycle sales in the U.K. dipped to 1.88 million units in 2022, a 20-year low." Although pedelecs and gravel bikes buck the trend - its still low. Electric gears to most consumers aren't worth the price of a new bike clearly. Living in an age of refinement, not so much invention, I feel manufacturers just took the biggest visual/audible smoke and mirrors "upgrade" to market - discs and electronics/shifting. Frame/wheel refinements are back in full aero mode now, weight not being the sole limiting design factor. So naturally, trying to rollout electronics where ever possible is the biggest innovation they can market right now. Brake systems, gear systems etc. Don't get me wrong I support the bike industry/work in it, I just sit with the masses who are happy to stay mechanical for a good while longer! Soon I think gears will start becoming kinetic systems, self charging etc. Gearboxes who knows. I'm keen to see what new manufacturing abilities beckon in the age of AI, 3d printing etc and manufacturers can really start pushing frame/component R&D budgets hopefully when sales boom again (how, I don't know!)
I my self use mechanical shifter but as a bike mechanic I worked on electrical shift. the only thing is shimano is constantly having to update to put patches in this program I've had customers switch back to cables do to di failing in the middle of a hilly century. Imagine having to ride home in the 13th gear?
In bike racing, there’s an issue of principle to be considered…..should we accept the use of an artificial, externally-derived power source in the operation of the bicycle. If we allow this, as we now do with gear shifting, then where will it end? Powered braking? Power steering? Power suspension? Traction control? Tyre pressure compressors? KERS systems? Maybe I’m pedantic, but my vote would be to keep bike racing exclusively human-powered and to ban electronic shifting in the pro peloton.
Electronic shifting - especially Shimano's - is sublime. When it works. How many times during races have riders banged on their derailleurs that suddenly failed for some reason? A race commentator remarked that he'd never seen a rider doing this on a mechanical groupset. Since electronic shifting dominates in the pro peloton, one can only assume that the benefits of electronic outweigh their infrequent breakdowns. As for myself, I prefer electronic shifting. It hasn't been perfect, but neither has my Shimano 105 mechanical.
Great job! Take a bow, David!! I have ridden mechanical groupset bikes for over 40 years. When it comes to bikes you can call mean traditionalist. However, last year I bought my first bike with electronic shifting (11-speed Ultegra Di2) and will never go back. Such a joy for all the reasons David mentioned, especially since I live where the terrain is constantly changing gradient and I need to change gears often.
I have three electronic bikes and love them but they’re expensive. For my touring bike I just bought a Campagnolo 12 speed kit because the price was right and it is one of the few options available for rim brakes, would have loved AXS but rim brake lever kit prices are out of control and I’m not drilling holes in my Ti frame for di2..too bad the di2 12 rim brake kit is not wireless, not ever the levers.
Went from Shimano mechanical 105 to SRAM Rival AXS. IMHO, hands down more enjoyable. The ease of shifting is the bomb. Like clicking a mouse. So much so that I shift more often to be in the most appropriate gear at all times. I especially appreciate it when I am in the drops at speed and can shift without even as much as a flinch of the bars. It really is a no brainer.
Short answer to the title question: No. It's different, but as with so many technological "advancements," different is not necessarily better. I agree that is has some clear performance advantages, but so does a turbocharged engine over the same engine with normal aspiration. Still, that turbo engine is not going to replace the regular engine for all buyers unless the normal engine is intentionally discontinued by the auto maker. Many buyers prefer to avoid the added complexity of that turbocharger. Further, price is a huge obstacle to mass adoption, and here we see that concept right out in the open. There is no longer any excuse for electronically-controlled groupsets (e-c) to be so much more expensive than fully mechanical groupsets. The base R&D has been done and paid for, and the actual electronic parts (motors and control ICs) are dirt cheap. Batteries are still somewhat expensive, but I doubt their cost even begins to cover the price premium. It seems clear to me that the only reason e-c groupsets cost so much more to buy (not to make) is because riders are so willing to pay more.
The only problem I have with my new Sram Axs is muscle memory. I switch between 2 bikes, new one w/Sram, and my older bike w/Campy 12 Mech. I keep messing up the downshift since my thumb is so used to shifting to harder gears. 😂 More miles needed.
I found the SRAM batteries a little fragile (I broke two!) Di2 in my opinion is the better choice. I've had Ultegra Di2 on my TREK Madone for 5 years now and not one problem. I still use mechanical on a couple of my other bikes but, electrical shifting is the way to go.
SRAM AXS on all my bikes, gravel with Force, Trail with X01, fatbike with GX. Only my commuter has cable GX... hate that thing, could be poor adjustment though...
Depends on what you cycle for. I'm interested in starting touring/audax/randonneuring - and most of the advice I've read is keep it simple...So mechanical it is.
unless you're riding 1000s of km without access to electricity, electricity is simpler. Cable stretch and snapping can take hours out of a ride. Maybe alright if you have external cables but far more opportunity for failure with mechanical.
people who bikepack get huge miles on heavily loaded bikes, Mechanical is just easier and simpler - and if something goes wrong replacing a cable or less expensive part is FAR easier. Electronic isn't worth it.
@@fennec13 stuff doesn't go wrong with electric that's the whole point. Electric is far more efficient and only needs indexing once so wears a lot slower and therefore breaks less. Price is the only real negative. Mark Beaumont has done all his recent ultra-long distance records on electric, most on the first gen electric
The problem many people don't realize is that we don't have many options left. A lot of new road bike frames are being made 'electric only'. Frames with mechanical Rim brakes are few and far between, especially if you want it in a specific color. I wanted to build a Red mechanical Rim endurance bike, but the only red frame left in my size that I could afford was an older aero disc frame. It's a new bare frame from 2019, and it's gorgeous, but you get what I'm saying. And no, I don't want to buy a used road bike.
Got my first bike with di2 and yes the shifting performance is much more enjoyable one reason is how the front derailer automatically does micro adjustment itself to avoid cross chaining no rubbing no matter what gear your on is enough for me to switch. There's no doubt it's better only issue is price if your fortunate enough to be able to afford its it's a no brainer.
I’d never buy electric gearset, not even if they were cheaper. You cant fix electric if your in the middle of nowhere. I’d take the manual any day Also cost, a brand new 9 speed sora rear derailleur. 30 quid… a wireless one, if they existed would be prob 100+++
I have 105 5800 and it is brilliant. Even better with an r7000 front mech. It's all I will ever need. Would I have di2 if I could justify the cost. Of course I would.
I have DI2 on my TT and Road bikes and very happy aside from the couple of times I forgot to charge and had a single speed ride back to base my mtb’s however are all mech and that’s not changing anytime soon and with the e-tube and the right battery the semi auto? Whatever they call it is fantastic and no chain drops unless I go 55t+ then it’s getting silly 😜
If you just enjoy riding your bike - where the main goal / enjoyment is simply riding a bike rather than changing your gears in a nano second and being even quicker on the bike - then do you really need electronic shifting? Of course, there are clearly so many 'would-be' or closet TDF riders out there for whom having the latest tech - including electronic shifting is but the latest 'must-have' accessory however, for some of us - just riding the bike, staying fit is sufficient reward. PS. Who is wanting 'us' to have (buy) the latest tech... yup, the brands, the bike manufacturers because it helps to drive their profit margins 🤔
Considering the cost of what is considered “better” today, cycling is fast becoming the sport and pastime of the elite. I’m still using a 9 speed tiagra groupset from probably 20 years ago. Thankfully Shimano still offering Sora 9 speed which would equivalent to the Tiagra or 105 of 2 decades ago. I also discovered Sunrace cassettes which I plan on continue buying. I understand the need and use for professional or for enthusiasts with the financial means for covering the costs of buying and maintaining this tech. I just hope we can continue to enjoy quality alternatives and offering in the lower end of the spectrum for those who want to enjoy cycling but still be able to use quality and reliable components.
I'll stick with mechanical until there's no longer option to do so. I won't deny electronic being superior, however I have charging Stuff that I don't need batteries on in the 1st place.
I might have to watch the video again, but SRAM AXS doesn’t have trim on the front derailleur. DI2 does. That said, I really like SRAM AXS. For myself (and others may differ), my hands don’t wear down on long rides. It’s super easy to wear mitten-like gloves. If I am tired on a long ride, I am not going to make that “almost” shift because I wasn’t paying attention. And the fluid clutch rear derailleur is fantastic! I was petrified that the wide groupo would have too wide Q factor for myself - but no. Spot on. My own opinions. It is expensive though. Very expensive. There are so many good mechanical groups old and new. Before I dived into AXS, my mechanical groupos were at least 15-20 years old. Better wheels and tires (to me) are the better investment to a frame set you love. I went for it because of my hands (and better hbars too). Made a big difference. I hope I can now do longer Gran Fondo and Randonneur styled events in the future.
SRAM road front derailleurs feature Yaw Technology, which uses a cage that's wider in the rear along with a larger front parallelogram than the rear. This is why they don't trim because they don't need to. Watch how one operates when you view from the top, you'll see the cage yaw as it moves from one chainring to another.
@@yonglingng5640 Thanks for pointing that out. I agree what you are saying. I was aware of the YAW angle as well. It works great! I think the way David was saying it that both automatically adjust which is not the case. Shimano Di2 adjusts based on the angle of that chain. SRAM is stationary.
How water proof are they? Recently got to a flooded road and the one rider with e-gear changing would not go through. Very expensive if water gets into the motor etc......
Maybe the high-end cycle industry is the most go around innovation business I can think of. As an old engineer working with product development, I cant find any other business who has the same public attention without showing any real innovation or difference in a decade of development. Besides being electronic, I cant tell the the difference in shifting quality btw my DI2 9150 bike and DA7800 bike - simply because there isn't no difference besides the narrative. Stick with your mechanical , vintage or modern and you will remain happy all day long.
Sram axs rocks,no cable problems like shimano.Riding hole my life Shimano with no electric parts and switch 3 year to sram axs. It was a just perfect every year.😀
I own a cervelo soloist with ultegra di12 and trek emonda with 105. They have their own pros and cons. If you have the money to buy electronic shifters go for it. Mech shifters are good to but i like the electronic shifters performance especially on a competition (amateur)
If this electronic shifting is so precise and smooth what was it that made Primo Roglic drop his chain when running over a pothole in the individual time trial at the Giro d'Italia?
My prediction for the long term future is that bike companies will phase out mechanical shifting on performance oriented bikes and everyone will be on electronic shifting and the price will come down as they become more of a commodity product. Then after that, when nobody has mechanical any more, the big companies will launch a high end mechanical groupset and market it as a groupset that is more tactile to use, much lighter and more environmentally friendly than electronic groupsets. Of course it will cost way more than the electronic groups because it will be marketed as an artisan bespoke product with high quality materials. Am I being too cynical?
You can call me old fashioned, but I believe you should be able to pick up your bike and just ride it without having to charge it. Lights, cadence and speed sensors, GPS computers etc are all optional. You don't need them to go and ride your bike. Electronic shifting means, well if your battery doesn't have juice, or your software goes screwy, you are going nowhere. I've not been won over yet. The cost difference v benefits against mechanical are really not worth any actual measureable gains on the road an average road cyclist would have.
Exactly, I have the same thinking. Bicycles are independent vehicles, you should only need human power to make it work, no electricity or fuel, no need for an infrastructure. I also think the same about the lights, and cycling computer, they need charge but they are only accessories, they are not essential for riding, a bicycle works just fine if your lights battery runs out, you should still be able to move, but the gear shifter is an essential component of the bicycle, it should be mechanical.
Pulled my rear derailure, cleaned, lubed reinstalled, no cable replacement, no cable clamp adjustment, done and done. No cable break in the middle of a ride (3 times in 20 years thank you campy) no ride home in smallest gear. I'll never go back to cable shifters, and a spare battery cost $20.00 and takes zero room... ask me about blips?
To answer the question of this video: NO. Everything mechanical is better in my opinion. Less stress. I ride bicycles to get away from the over digitalized world.
I like E-shifitng on 2x (especially with 11+ sprockets) But I also have 1x road and 1x Gravel bikes, and I really can't see the point in 1x E-shifting, No Auto trim or Synchro' to take advantage of and I can shift at least as fast with mechanical maybe faster.
I'm not adverse to the idea of electronic shifting. However, until battery life is two to three years or say two or three hundred thousand shifts between charge, I'm simply not interested.
I have 2 bikes. One with SRAM red 11 spd. mechanical and the other ultegra di2 11spd. Both are excellent. But the di2 bike remains excellent. Shifting degrades over time with mechanical which can be remedied by replacing the cables and housing. If your di2 shifting degrades its usually because your chain or cassette is worn out. Di2 has zero maintenance, I just charge once every 2 months.
Have the latest 12 speed Dura Ace and its great, but electric gears do come with risks. I'm moving my old rim brake bike to use mechanical Dura ace (from 11 speed Sram etap) as I don't want to deal with finding parts/maintenance in the future..... I'd still recommend a new cyclist to buy a 2nd hand mechanical ultegra rim brake bike and keep it simple....
A bike is supposed to be simple I have mercanical group set don't have to worry about changing a battery my 9100 mercanical group set works fine so don't see the point of electricity gearing and the price is sky high
I’m running GRX Di2 on my gravel bike and GX AXS on my trail bike. Are they necessary? Absolutely not! Are awesome? Absolutely yes! Not the first thing I’d upgrade on a bike but once you tried one it’s hard to go back…
I found your review well on spot. My view like many others here, mechanical and electric for most riders the precision is marginal. Now, as supposed to 10 years ago, mechanical has become so smooth and reliable. Both have pros and cons. For regular rider, electric shifting might not needed. I know that electric shifting technically can be helpful visually but not necessary as many pros have said it, even myself, you almost never looked at the gear you are on, not even if you have a power meter. The only reason to move toward electric shifting is x if you are looking at a bike that only accepts electric shifting. Personally, in MTB, shimano XTR shifts smoothly and spot on compare to even the new SRAM transmission. One thing I have notice that as we all know bikes, hubs type, and even wheels can have minor deviations that will impact smooth shifting. One bike with two different wheels I.e., ENVE Chris king vs ZIPP there are minor shifting inconsistencies even with the same cassette. Something to keep in mind.
I have just watched this video again and nothing has persuaded me that electronic changing would give me any more pleasure or convenience , I can only see disadvantages particularly financial, It is clear that manufacturers have perfected mechanical systems to the point that they cant make it any better, so they need to convince us all to junk what we have and buy into these electronic systems, cant blame them but it makes no sense for most people. Precision and Speed.....irrelevant for most people, even inexpensive mechanical systems are slick and more than sufficient for virtually anybody, I ride about 150 miles per week and I never need it any faster. Auto Trim.....I use a 3x8 system with flat bars and brake/shifters that cost under £20 and they work flawlessly I have drops on my other bike with SORA flight deck levers that are well over 10 years old and again they work fine and will work with anything. I never need to manually trim with my 3X and with a 2X system I cant see why that would ever be required with even entry level mech systems and in any case, its hardly a big deal unless every microsecond counts, which it doesnt for most of us. Extra buttons......never needed or wanted them and certainly wouldnt pay the price for such a marginal improvement My £20 Shimano brake shifters on my flat bars do display the gear I am in and on my drop bar bike I am happy to live without that feature Integration....not important to most people and a high financial price to pay for a trivial gain, I dont find cables visually offensive . But the biggest disadvantage for me is that lack of cross compatibility, I can use vintage Suntour bar end ratchet shifters from 1980 with a 2023 Shimano Deore rear mech, components 40 years apart and they will work perfectly, I can mix and match SRAM/Shimano/Suntour components decades apart and they will all work together. Even entry level mechanical provided the cables are kept clean (maybe look at them once a year) is so slick, inexpensive and easy to maintain that manufacturers have shot themselves in the foot and need us to buy into something new, I wont be falling for it :-)
Not going back to mechanical after converting my bike to Di2, so much better shifting and not needing to worry about old shifting cables, I'm happy to charge batteries for 30min every 3-4 months, plus having sprint shifters is a game changer, don't be fooled by people saying anything else or people that still ride 25mm tyres 🤪
I have a theory that the reason there are always so many more people in the comments moaning about E-Shifting is because they have more time on their hands, because they don't want to go out and ride their shitty bikes. 🤣🤣
I agree that electronic is better - even if from a purely ergonomic and fatigue perspective. I recently bought a used bike for traveling with Ultegra R8020 hydraulic 11 speed mechanical after riding electronic for several years. While the changing of gears is mostly excellent with that group, my hands, wrists, and thumbs have been sore with RSI lasting for months from the lever throw and large hood shape. Plus the constant trimming of front derailleur is a pain, and both derailleurs’ cables seized multiple times from a tiny bit of humidity and sweat getting on the cables. I haven’t had any problems with my Shimano or Sram electronic systems - and no sore hands!
Planet x are selling sram axes equipped pro carbon bikes for £2299 at the moment so electronic groupset equipped bike prices are definitely coming down big time!!.
A lot of this depends on which electronic shifting group set is being used. I absolutely LOVE Shimano Di2. Last year I built a SRAM AXS Rival bike just to switch things up and I am not impressed. No chain drops, but the shifting is not as fast, period. The front derailleur moves slow AF. There's also noticeable latency between the button press and when the rear mech actually moves, coming from Di2. I'm in the process of getting rid of the AXS stuff and sticking to Shimano like I knew I should have from the jump, but I love to tinker. I would say I greatly prefer my mechanical R8000 group over SRAM AXS (yes, really), but Di2 over everything, period.
Same, got new di2 and it is amazing. Just got the new force and it’s total dog shit in comparison. It shifts identical to sold SRAM force 22 mechanical from a decade ago. No problems per say but it’s clunky and slow no matter how it’s trimmed. Oh, and its fucking 300grams heavier than ultegra!!!! Wish I never bought it but glad I did so I can save my friends from ever buying a new SRAM setup. Also it’s finish quality looks like tiagra…
@@BladeBarn I feel you. I had to try it out on my own just so I wasn't talking out of my ass. I know some people really care about the full wireless aspect of AXS, but I do not. Shimano is just a better product overall in my opinion. I stand by preferring Shimano mechanical over SRAM AXS. Di2 is THE ONE for me. Hands down.
Price has been a show stopper for me. I can (could?) get two mechanical groups for the price of one electronic. Of course I am an old timer. When I was racing we had friction shifters on the downtube. So indexed mechanical brifters is as much tech as I need. I am rather skeptical about the price of these systems. I have not seen the guts of a shimano electronic shifter/brake lever compared to mechanical, but it must be significantly less complicated. I think there must have been some greasing of the palms (ie bribes) at the UCI back when these systems first came out. The UCI freaks out over what kind of socks riders are allowed to wear, and and how riders hold the handlebars, but motors on a bike is just fine???
@@JFomo I've been shifting with cables for 50 years. Never seemed to make me want something better. I don't really want to blow triple the cost on a new groups set just so I don't need to fiddle with limit screws and twist a barrel adjuster once or twice a year if that. Think how much we are getting ripped off by this stuff. The new Shimano Brifters are basically a brake lever with a built in key fob. They should not cost over $400. Paying too much for something to replace something that works just fine is ridiculous. I don't shun technology when it works and supplants something that doesn't work as well. I was the first (actually second) kid on the block with clipless pedals (there is a story there if you want to hear it). And I will never wear wool cycling shorts with real chamois ever again ugh.
@@doedoe9307 I met my roommate and fellow racer by colliding in a crit sprint and we held each other up going across the line at about 45°. Any way he was specialty R&D machinist. There was an unnamed company that was selling them new fangled clipless pedals. Occasionally the spring would break in a pedal. There was a tool for replacing the spring, but the company refused to provide it to the American distributor. They wanted the pedals sent back overseas to research the failure. This was not popular with the distributor or riders. So the distributor contacted my roommate and showed him a picture of the tool and he built them a couple. They had to keep it quiet and paid him in pedals, not $$$ for the tools. So to recoup his costs he sold the pedals for dirt cheap and that is how I was the second kid (he was the first) on the block to have clipless pedals..
@@scottsutoob wow, the company sounds a tad suspect. surely it's illegal to pay the commission of someone with pedals not cash? or maybe that's just the olden days for you...
@@doedoe9307 This was a nudge nudge wink wink agreement. US company got tool to warranty fix pedals instead of having customers wait months for replacements and my roommate got cool pedals.
Electronic groupsets have low grade, non serviceable electronics and internals (hobby grade motors, gears, shafts, no bearings or sleeves) designed in such a way to have shorter service life relative to their mechanical counterparts. Planned Obsolescence... design things to fail to ensure profits always reign over longevity.
Convenient yes but stupid money these days. I have Ultegra Di2 on one bike mechanical Ultegra on the other. If I was to buy another bike at some point I would choose a mechanical groupset over an expensive luxury electronic one.
I own a bike with electronic shifting and a bike with mechanical. Electronic isn’t what I would call better. There are pros and cons to both. I certainly don’t want to see mechanical shifting disappear!
You forgot many more advantages of mechanical shifting:
1. Mechanical is significantly cheaper
2. Mechanical is much more environmentally friendly
3. Mechanical doesn't need to be charged
4. Electronic components have a finite life. The electronics in an electronic system will fail after a number of years
5. Batteries have a finite life both in terms of years and number of cycles. Will you be able to buy replacement batteries in 20 years? Probably not. Will you be able to buy replacement cables? Yes.
6. Mechanical is lighter
Good points. I was tempted for some time, but always had a few second thoughts.
If you made a video with these points I would like it😊excellent.
'2. Mechanical is much more environmentally friendly' - I would disagree with you there. You need to change cables regularly to keep the shifting smooth - a lot more waste is produced during the lifetime of a mechanical groupset than electronic.
A lot of the Electronic Groupset cons can be easily remedied if SRAM/Shimano were to just use a Standard AAA battery instead of a proprietary one..
@@Weisser.Teufel Wrong, period.
As a person with multiple sclerosis-with most of my nerve pain in my hands-tiny, effortless eTap button pushing lets me ride longer days without throwing levers over many hours in the saddle.
Another huge disadvantage of electronic groupsets are the longevity. When I buy a >$12 k race bike, i expect to enjoy riding it for 10, 20 or even 30 years. The battery will go flat in 10 years and you will not be able to get a battery replacement for your 2023 Dura Ace Di2 groupset in 2033. Don't believe me, try getting a 2013 Dura Ace Di2 battery replacement now. You cant get one. You need to replace the entire groupset as everything has changed. Compare that with my 1999 Dura Ace 7700 groupset and my 2010 Dura Ace 7900 Groupset. They shift as well today as my 1st ride out of my LBS. And will shift the same indefinitely (obviously with regular maintenance). You cant say the same with any version of an electronic groupset.
Agree, I have just reused my 1980s suntour ratchet bar end shifters from my old Dawes Galaxy and paired them with modern Shimano Deore front and rear changers and they work perfectly, slick and smooth, thats components 40 years apart and they are 100% compatible, I do not think electronic systems will have that kind of longevity or compatibility
This exactly - the first time they decide to change a firmware or APP compatibility - that expensive piece of tech will be useless, not to mention replacement costs
of components that will be purposefully discontinued. - sheesh. What a scam! and they got people paying big bucks for it!
@@Afrikakorps68 In general, there are 2 camps that can afford a >$12k road bike - 1) those who are super rich and don't have to worry about money 2) those who are well off in this 1st world country, but are well off because they know the value of money - some say these people are thifty or even cheap. Again in general, those in camp 1) don't ride road bikes constantly and will give up this "fad", once they get bored and find a new toy or go on an amazing vacation because they have the money. Those in camp 2) are real cycling enthusiasts and/ or weekend racers. Canp 2 guys don't consider camp 1 guys as cyclist and can drop them any time and any where.
Yeah try and get anything for 2013 Durace DI2 like and a handlebar cable kit, NOT AVAILABLE. Why wouldn't you want to keep a great bike. Shimano has a 5 year redundancy on their products. Shit
Aye mate, therein lies the rub...
The question should be; is it worth the price over mechanical. The answer would be no.
Maybe not to you, i do what i want with my money :D
@@giodc8599 good for you mate.
Yes worth the money 100% whoever thinks it isn’t shows they have never tried one for more than 100 miles
The answer is yes. I have more entry lvl groupset (claris) want to upgrade but the price for mechanical 2x12 or 2x11 105 are around 600€ and for the di2 2x12 105 it is just 870€ . 270€ is the difference between them. That is not much at all. So I will most certainly go with di2 .
@@lloydlostvegas8785well it is about how much money u can spend. Cause mechanical works still but I believe the feel of that electronic one had to be something else entirely. And what for do we sit on our bikes ? Enjoyment of the ride the feeling u get from it. And for that we buy better tires, wheels etc. I'm looking for upgrade from Claris. Shimano 105 2x12 or 2x11 mechanical cost 600€, shimano 105 di2 2x12 870€ . It's no brainer really.
To me a bike and cycling itself is a mechanical thing/proces, independent of fuel or powersources.... adding electric components that need charging ruin that idea a bit. But that's just me, I definitely get the advantages for performance, no arguing there.
I agree. I'll deal with charging my Garmin and my lights, but I can keep riding efficiently even if they fail (I rarely ride in the dark on purpose). But I like the visceral feel and, yes, the sound of purely mechanical control. Full disclosure: I've never ridden Di2 or competing systems, and if I ever try them I might very well find myself impressed. That said, I can't imagine ever wanting to deal with fully integrated cabling and brake bleeding on what is supposed to be a very simple and easy-to-maintain device.
Innovation is always welcome! Think the cars without screen, or phones always on the cable because of the energy. The bikes really work with the mechanic functions but i think eletronic can be a good work, without maintenance, easy battery to carry on and substitute.
I don't have eletronic bike, but i will be happy when i can use this!
I agree. The process of changing gears with mechanical is much more satisfying and enjoyable. Just like a manual car is more enjoyable than automatic.
@@gazzberg I think you're onto something there. The technology is already available. Batteries are rechargeable and dynamo hubs have been around for decades. Just need someone with the know how to pair them.
I totally think the same way. I love bicycles because they are economical, and they only depend on the cyclist energy, they don't need a fuel/charging infrastructure. I'm more of a purist cyclist, I definitely prefer the good old mechanical parts. The only electronic things I use on my bike are the headlight and rear lights, which are battery powered and need charging, BUT, they are accessories, I don't need them to ride my bicycle, if they discharge the bicycle will still be able to move normally, they are not essential for the bike to work, they are only complements. But I don't like the idea of swapping essential parts of bicycle like gear shifter, for electronic ones, I also don't like hydraulic brakes, I go full mechanic, they are more reliable and cheaper.
Nice video, but all of the positives you mentioned are extremely marginal in my view. I honestly think that for 99% of amateur riders who are not racing and want a day to day reliable, fuss free groupset, Shimano 105 mechanical is all that is needed. Any more than this is just bling and wasted money, the fundamental riding experience of your bike won’t change in any meaningful way. spend the money on a top quality wheelset instead.
One thing, dont try Di2. Just stay happy as things are.
It honestly works so much better there's no comparison, no adjustments, no cable replacement, some since 2010 with out a touch.
Have not tried Di2 but have tried SRAM force AXS and my verdict was ‘meh’. Virtually no meaningful improvement over 105 mechanical. By the way my 2012 SRAM red mechanical groupset on my road bike is still working fine after 60,000 km. it never needs adjustment, still shifts and works perfectly. Electronic shifting is over hyped.
@@neilrobinson7965 I have all the groupsets, and SRAM AXS is fantastic, but di2 is just as phenomenal. I haven't touched any derailleur adjustments in almost 3 years on my Di2. I still like my mech groupsets, but I live in super cold temps part of the season and prefer electronic shifting. But to say it's marginally better is ridiculous...it's much. Necessary? well of course not...but it's wonderful. So I'll take electronic and a top quality wheelset too. Best of both worlds. mind you.....I still ride my mech bikes and they are great, but they're not as wonderful as electronic
@@Afrikakorps68 for me, the riding experience of a bike is defined by the frame, wheels and tyres. The marginal difference between a mechanical and an electronic group does not come into the equation for me. this is only my opinion and you think differently which of course is perfectly fine.
Say you never had a di2 groupset without telling me that you never had a di2 groupset …
there is no real reason , if you aren't on a pro peloton, that one should NEED electronic shifting. You can ride, race, and do everything that an electronic groupset can do -
on a mechanical groupset, at a fraction of the cost. The performance of that mechanical groupset vs an electronic one is frankly so marginal as to be non existent.
Bike manufactures and component manufacturers alike sponsor pro teams with their latest kit. Why ? To sell products. Plain and simple.
We don't all have sponsors throwing expensive kit at us David.
As a privateer, I want minimal maintenance. Once I set up etap, I haven't touched it. I ride in bad weather, and I ride a lot of hours. The system stays in check and I don't have to deal with cable stretch or any maintenance. Mechanical works fine, but in terms of maintenance, I've had less with electronic. Charge the batteries, out ya go.
Used Ultegra 10sp mech until last year - worked great. Now I use the new Ultegra 12sp Di2. Love the precision, reliability and not having to readjust the mech shifting once in a while. Garmin keeps me well informed before I need to charge. Never going back.
I'm still mechanical. My DA9100 is nice. Your comments on effort required to change especially in winter are true for the modern front derailleur, but my fleet of bikes has a few Tiagra 4700 drive trains. The front derailleur is amazing - so light, big leaver that doesn't look as good, but really light.
I'm tempted by electronic shifting, but one thing holds me back.
And that's the planned obsolescence that's endemic in the bike industry.
Let’s be clear about this - while other industries are under pressure to ensure that parts remain available for many years (in the interests of sustainability, the bike industry does appear (with very few exceptions) to “encourage” frequent bike purchases, partly through the deliberate restriction of the supply of parts for older models.
They'll sell you a bike, and then, when you need a crucial proprietary replacement part, perhaps a couple of years after your initial bike purchase, your local bike shop staff will be shrugging their shoulders and telling you that part isn't available any more.
I bought a fat bike last year (n+1 right?), and it's already off the road because the bike shop can't get the parts. Which is ridiculous!
So I just know that something will go wrong with those electronic shifting components and I won't be able to find a replacement.
I do hanker after a new bike but, as my wife said the other day, a Joules and his money are soon parted. I manage to sneak another bike into the garage very occasionally, but she hit the roof about the fat bike, so I think it’s much safer for me to stick to my existing mechanical geared bikes.
In fact, as my wife keeps tell me, my racing days are over, so I really shouldn’t be spending cash on chasing marginal gains (yes, she knows all about marginal gains), and suggests that a bike should be capable of lasting me at least ten years or so, before buying a replacement.
And you know what? I’m beginning to think she is right 😎
yeah, or the "firmware" is no longer supported , or your phone's OS decides not to work?
I cycle to get away from all this BS. not add to it !
I hear you! Can't get a Di2 battery holder for my 3 yr old Cervelo. Granted, it's not a crucial part. But they don't seem to care about supplying replacement parts. I'll take my business elsewhere.
@@MarkLRandall I think manufacturers should be forced to supply parts for a minimum of, say, 10 years.
wife is always right
@coolhand1966 Simping is a national healthcare crisis
Just purchased a 2023 Orbea with a 105 di2 12 speed groupset. My other drivetrain choices for the same frame were -$700 for an 11 speed mechanical 105 groupset, -100 for an 11 speed mechanical Ultegra groupset or +1300 for an Ultegra di2 groupset. The latter had a slightly better fork, seat and wheelset but all the builds were otherwise identical and they all had the same frame. I think the 105 di2 represents the sweet spot in getting a fully modern drivetrain without spending silly money.
Another pro for mech groupsets 2011 - 2012 electronic shifters are not likely to outlast mechanical of the same tier and age. The same could be estimated as you move forward in time - a mech set will last longer
Great job! Take a bow, David!! I have ridden mechanical groupset bikes for over 40 years. When it comes to bikes you can call me a traditionalist. However, last year I bought my first bike with electronic shifting (11-speed Ultegra Di2) and will never go back. Such a joy for all the reasons David mentioned, especially since I live where the terrain is constantly changing gradient and I need to change gears often.
For the money spent upgrading to electrical shifting isn't the money spent on a better wheelset more beneficial?
Almost certainly it is, and that could also be said for a professional bike fit or a very nice biking holiday. I just ordered a nearly bulletproof 650B gravel/adventure bike -- the whole bike, along with a couple of key upgrades and set of 700C wheels and tires for it -- for less than the price of a full 105 Di2 groupset.
I just swapped out my sram red etap bike for Ultegra mechnical. Cant really notice the speed difference in changing gears and it is easier and cheaper to maintain.
It’s noticeable if ur eagerly looking for a difference…. These guys keeps doing stuff to improve decimal performance improvements that almost doesnt exist. They exist but theyre not necessarily needed nor an essential.
Like how you edited out the 4min connecting time to the SHIMANO app LOL
I wanted to upgrade the Ultegra/105 on my cyclocross bike to electronics. However, the prices are still incredibly high - even if I wanted to get the bare minimum (no cassette, crankset, chain, brake calipers, pads and rotors) with majority of parts second hand I'm still looking at almost 700 Euros! For that price I can get a full nice second hand carbon road bike!
I’m so torn, the cycle to work scheme is rolling around again and I’m interested in the Orro Gold R800 and I can’t decide between the STC with 105 Di2 or the Evo with 105 mech. The points made in the video seem to lean more towards the electronic which being a tech nerd is very appealing but I feel like I would lose the ability to service it myself. Help!
As far as I'm aware, cycle sales have plummeted. On Forbes, "The Bicycle Association (BA) now says annual cycle sales in the U.K. dipped to 1.88 million units in 2022, a 20-year low."
Although pedelecs and gravel bikes buck the trend - its still low. Electric gears to most consumers aren't worth the price of a new bike clearly.
Living in an age of refinement, not so much invention, I feel manufacturers just took the biggest visual/audible smoke and mirrors "upgrade" to market - discs and electronics/shifting.
Frame/wheel refinements are back in full aero mode now, weight not being the sole limiting design factor. So naturally, trying to rollout electronics where ever possible is the biggest innovation they can market right now. Brake systems, gear systems etc.
Don't get me wrong I support the bike industry/work in it, I just sit with the masses who are happy to stay mechanical for a good while longer!
Soon I think gears will start becoming kinetic systems, self charging etc. Gearboxes who knows. I'm keen to see what new manufacturing abilities beckon in the age of AI, 3d printing etc and manufacturers can really start pushing frame/component R&D budgets hopefully when sales boom again (how, I don't know!)
I my self use mechanical shifter but as a bike mechanic I worked on electrical shift. the only thing is shimano is constantly having to update to put patches in this program I've had customers switch back to cables do to di failing in the middle of a hilly century. Imagine having to ride home in the 13th gear?
In bike racing, there’s an issue of principle to be considered…..should we accept the use of an artificial, externally-derived power source in the operation of the bicycle. If we allow this, as we now do with gear shifting, then where will it end? Powered braking? Power steering? Power suspension? Traction control? Tyre pressure compressors? KERS systems? Maybe I’m pedantic, but my vote would be to keep bike racing exclusively human-powered and to ban electronic shifting in the pro peloton.
Electronic shifting - especially Shimano's - is sublime. When it works. How many times during races have riders banged on their derailleurs that suddenly failed for some reason? A race commentator remarked that he'd never seen a rider doing this on a mechanical groupset. Since electronic shifting dominates in the pro peloton, one can only assume that the benefits of electronic outweigh their infrequent breakdowns. As for myself, I prefer electronic shifting. It hasn't been perfect, but neither has my Shimano 105 mechanical.
How many?
I have and i had at least 10 di2 systems without single issue.
Great job! Take a bow, David!! I have ridden mechanical groupset bikes for over 40 years. When it comes to bikes you can call mean traditionalist. However, last year I bought my first bike with electronic shifting (11-speed Ultegra Di2) and will never go back. Such a joy for all the reasons David mentioned, especially since I live where the terrain is constantly changing gradient and I need to change gears often.
The mind is willing, but the wallet is weak.
I have three electronic bikes and love them but they’re expensive. For my touring bike I just bought a Campagnolo 12 speed kit because the price was right and it is one of the few options available for rim brakes, would have loved AXS but rim brake lever kit prices are out of control and I’m not drilling holes in my Ti frame for di2..too bad the di2 12 rim brake kit is not wireless, not ever the levers.
Went from Shimano mechanical 105 to SRAM Rival AXS. IMHO, hands down more enjoyable. The ease of shifting is the bomb. Like clicking a mouse. So much so that I shift more often to be in the most appropriate gear at all times. I especially appreciate it when I am in the drops at speed and can shift without even as much as a flinch of the bars. It really is a no brainer.
Short answer to the title question: No. It's different, but as with so many technological "advancements," different is not necessarily better. I agree that is has some clear performance advantages, but so does a turbocharged engine over the same engine with normal aspiration. Still, that turbo engine is not going to replace the regular engine for all buyers unless the normal engine is intentionally discontinued by the auto maker. Many buyers prefer to avoid the added complexity of that turbocharger. Further, price is a huge obstacle to mass adoption, and here we see that concept right out in the open. There is no longer any excuse for electronically-controlled groupsets (e-c) to be so much more expensive than fully mechanical groupsets. The base R&D has been done and paid for, and the actual electronic parts (motors and control ICs) are dirt cheap. Batteries are still somewhat expensive, but I doubt their cost even begins to cover the price premium. It seems clear to me that the only reason e-c groupsets cost so much more to buy (not to make) is because riders are so willing to pay more.
this exactly. they are tailoring products to sell for huge profits. there's no reason for it.
Not for me electronic I love mechanical Ultegra.. I’m in the process of building up a CAAD10 with rim brake Ultegra to and feels fantastic ❤🤩🏅🚴
The only problem I have with my new Sram Axs is muscle memory. I switch between 2 bikes, new one w/Sram, and my older bike w/Campy 12 Mech. I keep messing up the downshift since my thumb is so used to shifting to harder gears. 😂 More miles needed.
I found the SRAM batteries a little fragile (I broke two!) Di2 in my opinion is the better choice. I've had Ultegra Di2 on my TREK Madone for 5 years now and not one problem. I still use mechanical on a couple of my other bikes but, electrical shifting is the way to go.
SRAM AXS on all my bikes, gravel with Force, Trail with X01, fatbike with GX. Only my commuter has cable GX... hate that thing, could be poor adjustment though...
Depends on what you cycle for. I'm interested in starting touring/audax/randonneuring - and most of the advice I've read is keep it simple...So mechanical it is.
unless you're riding 1000s of km without access to electricity, electricity is simpler. Cable stretch and snapping can take hours out of a ride. Maybe alright if you have external cables but far more opportunity for failure with mechanical.
people who bikepack get huge miles on heavily loaded bikes, Mechanical is just easier and simpler - and if something goes wrong replacing a cable or less expensive part is FAR easier.
Electronic isn't worth it.
@@fennec13 stuff doesn't go wrong with electric that's the whole point. Electric is far more efficient and only needs indexing once so wears a lot slower and therefore breaks less. Price is the only real negative. Mark Beaumont has done all his recent ultra-long distance records on electric, most on the first gen electric
Clear and concise video. I just ordered a new road bike with an electronic groupset. The advantages are clearly described in David’s videos.
The problem many people don't realize is that we don't have many options left. A lot of new road bike frames are being made 'electric only'. Frames with mechanical Rim brakes are few and far between, especially if you want it in a specific color. I wanted to build a Red mechanical Rim endurance bike, but the only red frame left in my size that I could afford was an older aero disc frame. It's a new bare frame from 2019, and it's gorgeous, but you get what I'm saying. And no, I don't want to buy a used road bike.
Better ceases to be better when the object is twice the price and doesn't produce double the amount of satisfaction .
Got my first bike with di2 and yes the shifting performance is much more enjoyable one reason is how the front derailer automatically does micro adjustment itself to avoid cross chaining no rubbing no matter what gear your on is enough for me to switch. There's no doubt it's better only issue is price if your fortunate enough to be able to afford its it's a no brainer.
Great companion video to the one on Mechanical Shifting.
Thanks 👍
I’d never buy electric gearset, not even if they were cheaper. You cant fix electric if your in the middle of nowhere. I’d take the manual any day
Also cost, a brand new 9 speed sora rear derailleur. 30 quid… a wireless one, if they existed would be prob 100+++
I have 105 5800 and it is brilliant. Even better with an r7000 front mech. It's all I will ever need.
Would I have di2 if I could justify the cost. Of course I would.
I have DI2 on my TT and Road bikes and very happy aside from the couple of times I forgot to charge and had a single speed ride back to base my mtb’s however are all mech and that’s not changing anytime soon and with the e-tube and the right battery the semi auto? Whatever they call it is fantastic and no chain drops unless I go 55t+ then it’s getting silly 😜
If you just enjoy riding your bike - where the main goal / enjoyment is simply riding a bike rather than changing your gears in a nano second and being even quicker on the bike - then do you really need electronic shifting? Of course, there are clearly so many 'would-be' or closet TDF riders out there for whom having the latest tech - including electronic shifting is but the latest 'must-have' accessory however, for some of us - just riding the bike, staying fit is sufficient reward. PS. Who is wanting 'us' to have (buy) the latest tech... yup, the brands, the bike manufacturers because it helps to drive their profit margins 🤔
Considering the cost of what is considered “better” today, cycling is fast becoming the sport and pastime of the elite. I’m still using a 9 speed tiagra groupset from probably 20 years ago. Thankfully Shimano still offering Sora 9 speed which would equivalent to the Tiagra or 105 of 2 decades ago. I also discovered Sunrace cassettes which I plan on continue buying.
I understand the need and use for professional or for enthusiasts with the financial means for covering the costs of buying and maintaining this tech. I just hope we can continue to enjoy quality alternatives and offering in the lower end of the spectrum for those who want to enjoy cycling but still be able to use quality and reliable components.
Been using di2 for over a decade. Love it. SRAM etap axs for a couple of years. Love that too.
I'll stick with mechanical until there's no longer option to do so.
I won't deny electronic being superior, however I have charging Stuff that I don't need batteries on in the 1st place.
Its depressing to think that bike companies would phase out mechanical bike. Self-destructive.
I might have to watch the video again, but SRAM AXS doesn’t have trim on the front derailleur. DI2 does.
That said, I really like SRAM AXS. For myself (and others may differ), my hands don’t wear down on long rides. It’s super easy to wear mitten-like gloves. If I am tired on a long ride, I am not going to make that “almost” shift because I wasn’t paying attention. And the fluid clutch rear derailleur is fantastic! I was petrified that the wide groupo would have too wide Q factor for myself - but no. Spot on. My own opinions.
It is expensive though. Very expensive. There are so many good mechanical groups old and new. Before I dived into AXS, my mechanical groupos were at least 15-20 years old. Better wheels and tires (to me) are the better investment to a frame set you love. I went for it because of my hands (and better hbars too). Made a big difference. I hope I can now do longer Gran Fondo and Randonneur styled events in the future.
SRAM road front derailleurs feature Yaw Technology, which uses a cage that's wider in the rear along with a larger front parallelogram than the rear. This is why they don't trim because they don't need to.
Watch how one operates when you view from the top, you'll see the cage yaw as it moves from one chainring to another.
@@yonglingng5640 Thanks for pointing that out. I agree what you are saying. I was aware of the YAW angle as well. It works great! I think the way David was saying it that both automatically adjust which is not the case. Shimano Di2 adjusts based on the angle of that chain. SRAM is stationary.
1x mullet setup is why I love electronic on my gravel bike
I am just curious to try the new tech. I don't think it will make me fast or anything. Just looks kool and new!
How water proof are they? Recently got to a flooded road and the one rider with e-gear changing would not go through. Very expensive if water gets into the motor etc......
I’ve submerged electronic gears in deep water no problem so they would be fine
Maybe the high-end cycle industry is the most go around innovation business I can think of. As an old engineer working with product development, I cant find any other business who has the same public attention without showing any real innovation or difference in a decade of development. Besides being electronic, I cant tell the the difference in shifting quality btw my DI2 9150 bike and DA7800 bike - simply because there isn't no difference besides the narrative. Stick with your mechanical , vintage or modern and you will remain happy all day long.
What is the weight difference ?
Sram axs rocks,no cable problems like shimano.Riding hole my life Shimano with no electric parts and switch 3 year to sram axs. It was a just perfect every year.😀
There arent any cables with Di2. Just wires.
@@Afrikakorps68 Yeah but he said he had mechanical shifting. Probably has cables....good try!
I own a cervelo soloist with ultegra di12 and trek emonda with 105. They have their own pros and cons. If you have the money to buy electronic shifters go for it. Mech shifters are good to but i like the electronic shifters performance especially on a competition (amateur)
If this electronic shifting is so precise and smooth what was it that made Primo Roglic drop his chain when running over a pothole in the individual time trial at the Giro d'Italia?
I thought that after riding the R9000 groupset recently, you said was the best, and looking for a groupset to buy??
It’s the best mechanical and yes I’m still looking for one to buy but struggling
My prediction for the long term future is that bike companies will phase out mechanical shifting on performance oriented bikes and everyone will be on electronic shifting and the price will come down as they become more of a commodity product. Then after that, when nobody has mechanical any more, the big companies will launch a high end mechanical groupset and market it as a groupset that is more tactile to use, much lighter and more environmentally friendly than electronic groupsets.
Of course it will cost way more than the electronic groups because it will be marketed as an artisan bespoke product with high quality materials. Am I being too cynical?
why do I see this as being highly plausible
Dead on. Bet on it.
I way prefer the look of the sram batteries than cables (incl di2).
not having to manually adjust and trim the derailleur is the only selling point i need, hate that chain rub
Rolex or Casio that is the question.
You can call me old fashioned, but I believe you should be able to pick up your bike and just ride it without having to charge it. Lights, cadence and speed sensors, GPS computers etc are all optional. You don't need them to go and ride your bike. Electronic shifting means, well if your battery doesn't have juice, or your software goes screwy, you are going nowhere. I've not been won over yet. The cost difference v benefits against mechanical are really not worth any actual measureable gains on the road an average road cyclist would have.
Exactly, I have the same thinking. Bicycles are independent vehicles, you should only need human power to make it work, no electricity or fuel, no need for an infrastructure. I also think the same about the lights, and cycling computer, they need charge but they are only accessories, they are not essential for riding, a bicycle works just fine if your lights battery runs out, you should still be able to move, but the gear shifter is an essential component of the bicycle, it should be mechanical.
Yet another one of your brilliant helpful trustworthy videos, but what really annoys me is this terrible elevator-music in the background.
Sram APEX AXS is coming this summer. This will really bring electronic gearings to a much wider audience.
Pulled my rear derailure, cleaned, lubed reinstalled, no cable replacement, no cable clamp adjustment, done and done. No cable break in the middle of a ride (3 times in 20 years thank you campy) no ride home in smallest gear. I'll never go back to cable shifters, and a spare battery cost $20.00 and takes zero room... ask me about blips?
To answer the question of this video: NO.
Everything mechanical is better in my opinion. Less stress. I ride bicycles to get away from the over digitalized world.
I like E-shifitng on 2x (especially with 11+ sprockets) But I also have 1x road and 1x Gravel bikes, and I really can't see the point in 1x E-shifting, No Auto trim or Synchro' to take advantage of and I can shift at least as fast with mechanical maybe faster.
Shimano ultegra r8000 on my 2022 tcr is all i will ever need.
How does the electronic gears works when the batteries runs flat?
Just like mechanical when the cable snaps. 😉
Wow what a unique video idea. Bet this has never been done before
Such a cycnic. Next week's video, why mechanical shifting is better 😂
For me the price and the weight put me off; I want a light bike at a reasonable price
I'm not adverse to the idea of electronic shifting. However, until battery life is two to three years or say two or three hundred thousand shifts between charge, I'm simply not interested.
I have 2 bikes. One with SRAM red 11 spd. mechanical and the other ultegra di2 11spd. Both are excellent. But the di2 bike remains excellent. Shifting degrades over time with mechanical which can be remedied by replacing the cables and housing. If your di2 shifting degrades its usually because your chain or cassette is worn out. Di2 has zero maintenance, I just charge once every 2 months.
Have the latest 12 speed Dura Ace and its great, but electric gears do come with risks. I'm moving my old rim brake bike to use mechanical Dura ace (from 11 speed Sram etap) as I don't want to deal with finding parts/maintenance in the future..... I'd still recommend a new cyclist to buy a 2nd hand mechanical ultegra rim brake bike and keep it simple....
Started riding a bike in 1959.
A bike is supposed to be simple I have mercanical group set don't have to worry about changing a battery my 9100 mercanical group set works fine so don't see the point of electricity gearing and the price is sky high
I’m running GRX Di2 on my gravel bike and GX AXS on my trail bike. Are they necessary? Absolutely not! Are awesome? Absolutely yes!
Not the first thing I’d upgrade on a bike but once you tried one it’s hard to go back…
I found your review well on spot. My view like many others here, mechanical and electric for most riders the precision is marginal. Now, as supposed to 10 years ago, mechanical has become so smooth and reliable. Both have pros and cons. For regular rider, electric shifting might not needed. I know that electric shifting technically can be helpful visually but not necessary as many pros have said it, even myself, you almost never looked at the gear you are on, not even if you have a power meter. The only reason to move toward electric shifting is x if you are looking at a bike that only accepts electric shifting. Personally, in MTB, shimano XTR shifts smoothly and spot on compare to even the new SRAM transmission. One thing I have notice that as we all know bikes, hubs type, and even wheels can have minor deviations that will impact smooth shifting. One bike with two different wheels I.e., ENVE Chris king vs ZIPP there are minor shifting inconsistencies even with the same cassette. Something to keep in mind.
I have just watched this video again and nothing has persuaded me that electronic changing would give me any more pleasure or convenience , I can only see disadvantages particularly financial, It is clear that manufacturers have perfected mechanical systems to the point that they cant make it any better, so they need to convince us all to junk what we have and buy into these electronic systems, cant blame them but it makes no sense for most people.
Precision and Speed.....irrelevant for most people, even inexpensive mechanical systems are slick and more than sufficient for virtually anybody, I ride about 150 miles per week and I never need it any faster.
Auto Trim.....I use a 3x8 system with flat bars and brake/shifters that cost under £20 and they work flawlessly I have drops on my other bike with SORA flight deck levers that are well over 10 years old and again they work fine and will work with anything.
I never need to manually trim with my 3X and with a 2X system I cant see why that would ever be required with even entry level mech systems and in any case, its hardly a big deal unless every microsecond counts, which it doesnt for most of us.
Extra buttons......never needed or wanted them and certainly wouldnt pay the price for such a marginal improvement
My £20 Shimano brake shifters on my flat bars do display the gear I am in and on my drop bar bike I am happy to live without that feature
Integration....not important to most people and a high financial price to pay for a trivial gain, I dont find cables visually offensive .
But the biggest disadvantage for me is that lack of cross compatibility, I can use vintage Suntour bar end ratchet shifters from 1980 with a 2023 Shimano Deore rear mech, components 40 years apart and they will work perfectly, I can mix and match SRAM/Shimano/Suntour components decades apart and they will all work together. Even entry level mechanical provided the cables are kept clean (maybe look at them once a year) is so slick, inexpensive and easy to maintain that manufacturers have shot themselves in the foot and need us to buy into something new, I wont be falling for it :-)
Not going back to mechanical after converting my bike to Di2, so much better shifting and not needing to worry about old shifting cables, I'm happy to charge batteries for 30min every 3-4 months, plus having sprint shifters is a game changer, don't be fooled by people saying anything else or people that still ride 25mm tyres 🤪
I have a theory that the reason there are always so many more people in the comments moaning about E-Shifting is because they have more time on their hands, because they don't want to go out and ride their shitty bikes. 🤣🤣
I do ride 25mm (tubeless) sometimes though, Tried 30's but I weigh like 56kg and the bike is sub 7 so I didn't feel much difference comfort wise.
@7:56 the little spider 🕷️ in the stem 😊
As a weekend warrior....is Di2 needed for my 30 to 40 miles ride
I agree that electronic is better - even if from a purely ergonomic and fatigue perspective. I recently bought a used bike for traveling with Ultegra R8020 hydraulic 11 speed mechanical after riding electronic for several years. While the changing of gears is mostly excellent with that group, my hands, wrists, and thumbs have been sore with RSI lasting for months from the lever throw and large hood shape. Plus the constant trimming of front derailleur is a pain, and both derailleurs’ cables seized multiple times from a tiny bit of humidity and sweat getting on the cables. I haven’t had any problems with my Shimano or Sram electronic systems - and no sore hands!
Only thing that has batteries on my bikes are the lights . That's plenty for me I'm not in a hurry to switch 🙂
I love my mechanical ultegra set. More than once some guys in our group ride can´t shift anymore due to some issue with their electronic set.
I went back to living in a cave and wearing animal hides and I'm much happier now ......
Planet x are selling sram axes equipped pro carbon bikes for £2299 at the moment so electronic groupset equipped bike prices are definitely coming down big time!!.
If electric gearing was going down cheap but I stick with mechanical it makes you feel like you're in control makes you feel one with the bike
if your chain runs off than the only thing you can do is splitting the chain ....and reassemble.......not so great i think
There's lots of pros and cons of electronic groupsets. But honestly, I just think they're neat.
Don't forget to charge your bike nerds.
is it automatic?
A lot of this depends on which electronic shifting group set is being used. I absolutely LOVE Shimano Di2. Last year I built a SRAM AXS Rival bike just to switch things up and I am not impressed. No chain drops, but the shifting is not as fast, period. The front derailleur moves slow AF. There's also noticeable latency between the button press and when the rear mech actually moves, coming from Di2. I'm in the process of getting rid of the AXS stuff and sticking to Shimano like I knew I should have from the jump, but I love to tinker. I would say I greatly prefer my mechanical R8000 group over SRAM AXS (yes, really), but Di2 over everything, period.
Same, got new di2 and it is amazing. Just got the new force and it’s total dog shit in comparison. It shifts identical to sold SRAM force 22 mechanical from a decade ago. No problems per say but it’s clunky and slow no matter how it’s trimmed. Oh, and its fucking 300grams heavier than ultegra!!!! Wish I never bought it but glad I did so I can save my friends from ever buying a new SRAM setup. Also it’s finish quality looks like tiagra…
@@BladeBarn I feel you. I had to try it out on my own just so I wasn't talking out of my ass. I know some people really care about the full wireless aspect of AXS, but I do not. Shimano is just a better product overall in my opinion. I stand by preferring Shimano mechanical over SRAM AXS. Di2 is THE ONE for me. Hands down.
Why have perfectly fine mechanical shifters when you could have slightly better, much more expensive electric shifters?
Di2 more better than mech Ultegra. My left wrist wont lie. Especially in the winter.
Of course
Price has been a show stopper for me. I can (could?) get two mechanical groups for the price of one electronic. Of course I am an old timer. When I was racing we had friction shifters on the downtube. So indexed mechanical brifters is as much tech as I need.
I am rather skeptical about the price of these systems. I have not seen the guts of a shimano electronic shifter/brake lever compared to mechanical, but it must be significantly less complicated.
I think there must have been some greasing of the palms (ie bribes) at the UCI back when these systems first came out. The UCI freaks out over what kind of socks riders are allowed to wear, and and how riders hold the handlebars, but motors on a bike is just fine???
@@JFomo I've been shifting with cables for 50 years. Never seemed to make me want something better. I don't really want to blow triple the cost on a new groups set just so I don't need to fiddle with limit screws and twist a barrel adjuster once or twice a year if that. Think how much we are getting ripped off by this stuff. The new Shimano Brifters are basically a brake lever with a built in key fob. They should not cost over $400. Paying too much for something to replace something that works just fine is ridiculous. I don't shun technology when it works and supplants something that doesn't work as well. I was the first (actually second) kid on the block with clipless pedals (there is a story there if you want to hear it). And I will never wear wool cycling shorts with real chamois ever again ugh.
@@scottsutoob say, what's the clipless pedal story?
@@doedoe9307 I met my roommate and fellow racer by colliding in a crit sprint and we held each other up going across the line at about 45°. Any way he was specialty R&D machinist. There was an unnamed company that was selling them new fangled clipless pedals. Occasionally the spring would break in a pedal. There was a tool for replacing the spring, but the company refused to provide it to the American distributor. They wanted the pedals sent back overseas to research the failure. This was not popular with the distributor or riders. So the distributor contacted my roommate and showed him a picture of the tool and he built them a couple. They had to keep it quiet and paid him in pedals, not $$$ for the tools. So to recoup his costs he sold the pedals for dirt cheap and that is how I was the second kid (he was the first) on the block to have clipless pedals..
@@scottsutoob wow, the company sounds a tad suspect. surely it's illegal to pay the commission of someone with pedals not cash? or maybe that's just the olden days for you...
@@doedoe9307 This was a nudge nudge wink wink agreement. US company got tool to warranty fix pedals instead of having customers wait months for replacements and my roommate got cool pedals.
They may be better but for me they are not so much better that they justify the cost difference
Electronic groupsets have low grade, non serviceable electronics and internals (hobby grade motors, gears, shafts, no bearings or sleeves) designed in such a way to have shorter service life relative to their mechanical counterparts. Planned Obsolescence... design things to fail to ensure profits always reign over longevity.
Convenient yes but stupid money these days. I have Ultegra Di2 on one bike mechanical Ultegra on the other. If I was to buy another bike at some point I would choose a mechanical groupset over an expensive luxury electronic one.
We all can have all the expensive tech but there is always someone ride Sora/105 mech gs faster/better than you.
I own a bike with electronic shifting and a bike with mechanical. Electronic isn’t what I would call better. There are pros and cons to both. I certainly don’t want to see mechanical shifting disappear!