Heh, I could see happen painting a Doom related mini in front of screen, then leaving the camera on while the paint dries while simultaneously playing and talking about it casually :)
The saddest thing that has happened to me was that at a single segment attempt, after finishing the last fight with 30 hp, I shot a rocket in relief and face rocketed against the final lift. Love this map still.
I had to make sure to pull the sound replacement for chainsaw from NERF because it's so funny and perfectly represents that weapon, I run it with every wad I play from now on lmao
Gazebo admitted in his interview with Nirvana that he wanted to deliberately put players through a tedious grind occasionally. I'm not sure it's a good idea gameplay wise but he definitely knew what he was doing. Perhaps the feeling you get from forcing your way through so many enemies as you climb the tower is supposed to make you feel like its an exhausting & oppressive struggle against overwhelming, relentless odds. They absolutely cannot allow Doomguy to make it to the top so hell's armies are thrown at you in their thousands to try and ensure it doesn't happen. Makes sense in my own head anyway lol. Anyway, really enjoyed watching you smash through it in 1 attempt, decino. Great job! 👍
Well, I for one think that gazebo was thinking about making the equivalent of a stress ball in Doom with that hell knight fight. Firing an almost endless stream of rockets on hundreds of helpless hell knights is both a power trip and a relaxing moment, both of which are in very short supply in Sunder. And by the way, if map 11 is the one I think it is, that will be interesting to watch.
@@shemsuhor8763 yeah i cant wait for it ^.^ the livestream was giggly because he hadn't practiced it or read up on the strats, pretty much blind i think cant wait! ^.^
One thing I noticed when I played this map on the final fight is that the center room is just the right size for the archviles. If an archvile targets you at one doorway, it'll hit you right when you reach the next doorway.
I remember during the stream, you asked Gazebo what he was thinking when he made the fight against hundreds of "big imps" and he said he didn't know what he was thinking either
When I played Sunder for the first time (that time I was playing with mods mostly) I couldn't really comprehend how much time and effort Insane_Gazebo spent on this map alone. But now I can't feel nothing but silent astounishment when I see Sunder maps, especially the later ones like Babylon's Chimera, Archives of the Technomancer or City at the Mouth of Ire. No AAA game developer could replicate the style of Insane_Gazebo. I probably would not play Sunder for 5 maps even on medium difficulty since I'm not a fan of slaughtermaps, but it will always be a special experience in all of my time playing Doom. First try single-segment run, wow. You're a goddamn Doom God, Decino!
29:11 "I've read comments people would watch paint dry as long as I spoke over it." One of RTGame's biggest streams on Twitch was literally watching paint dry, and something like 10k people were watching at one point in time. Never underestimate people's ability to be entertained by literally anything.
Hi decino, I have a crippling pain in my lower back that affects the way I walk. This pain is dulled when I watch your videos and your easygoing vibe makes me feel better. Thank you
Perfect... after a 13 hour shift at work, there's no better way to unwind than to have a couple of beers and watch Decino smash through some Doom! Keep the vids coming!
personally i enjoy these longer videos. i either A: light up a doobie, then sit down crack open a nice cold beer or B: enjoy my meal as i watch you destroy these maps that are too difficult for me lol thanks for the amazing content/commentary.
There needs to be a way to increase the camera's vertical offset so you can show things from a slightly higher perspective. That'd let you show off some of the insane architecture in some of these maps.
Doom asmr is actually the only asmr i like and is super effective for relaxing, that's why i watch your videos to fall asleep (and then rewatch them in the morning)
I was waiting all day for this moment, to sit here and watch this episode of Sunder, I'm ready with a cup of tea and crisps! Attempt number 1 hooooly crap! no matter if hard or easy map, it's still Sunder :D 14:37 it's Friday and this Lost Soul don't give a damn :D 23:56 earrape! Imagine fighting those hell knights with only SSG :D You nailed this map, great gameplay!
You forgot the single reason why we don't want to fast forward even the tedious parts of the map - we want to enjoy the soothing voice-over of a true youtube-gamer... ;)
The less stressful stage was a welcome reprieve for me too. Been binge watching this playlist and I can finally relax after clenching my butthole while watching the several previous videos in a row.
I agree with you. This is one of the easiest Sunder levels. However, that ending fight is no joke. Even the slightest hiccup can potentially screw you over. Hag's finger is definitely an experience, although I noticed you stayed below during the pain elemental wave, but I stayed above by the switch. Which honestly is more risky now that I think about it, since they can enter through the window too there. Good luck in the next map :D
How oddly coincident that this music of Duke Nukem's level is in this Sunder Map when you just did Doom 2 Spain in Map 24 of Duke's Map which is very odd but very cool at the same time! 🤔 35:45-36:12 169% Health & Armor.......niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice! 😎🍹 Overall it's a very cool map to see here but gameplay wise, not so much. Indeed climbing to the tower is always fun to do! Very awesome gameplay as usual! 😄👍
hey decino. i've got an idea for a newe video: Doom Specs - how big is the back pack of doom guy physically - how strong is doom guy lifting all weapons and ammo - how fast is doom guy - why does doom guy don't get damage by his own BFG - how much force does a berzerk punch have - ...
The bad part reminds me of the kleer alley part in Serious Sam, except there I was shredding hundreds of kleer and it was a fun fight of dumping ammo and hoping not to get pushed back to the pit, vs here in doom it's just slowly firing a rocket launcher to slowly kill hell knights.
I wonder if the mapper could have added an "anti cheesing" element for the hell knight and stair fight. Like since some of the monsters are stuck and instead of cleanup, make a monster teleporter that exploits their ai so they teleport behind you? The fight would be a bit more high risk, high reward because you knock out two fights at once because you get to have the infighting but are at risk of getting sandwiched. Anyways, always good to watch! Thanks for the video
Huh, at that huge hell knight fight about 30 minutes into the map, I wonder if it's possible to accidentally trigger an intercepts overflow bug thanks to all the corpses?
"So, you like Hellknights eh? Well, try all the Hellknights in the world!" Seriously thinking of downloading Sunder to run it with Russian Overkill and Nashgore, but I'm concerned my laptop will just die trying to render so many sprites and effects all at once.
and after it - there is The Furnace - the biggest so far. Totally mess. :) Long. Exhausting. Hardcore. Good luck ! You are going to beat it. It will hurt. You will swear a lot. But Finally in 2-digit attept - it will finally be beaten by you. ;)
First things first, i would love to watch you commentating over paint drying. That would one of the best days of my life. Second, i really respect your... resilience? Sturdiness? I just gave up on an hour long Hollow Knight boss rush because of just how absurdly boring it is - all that just so you die to one of the three last bosses. I don't know how this works on you, but the challenger in me died long ago
I find rocketing big groups of imps really satisfying how so many die at once gives me that real power fantasy feel :) but yes also love rocketing groups of Revenants
The problem with the HK fight is that you don't have to move. Just standing in one spot gets boring quickly. To fix this fight, you'd have to add something that forces the player to move around more. Maybe one or two sniping Cyberdemons?
If I had to fix the boring Hell Knight, I got 3 options: - A Cyberdemon or two as you suggested - A mixture of Imps and Cacodemons instead of Hell Knights - Demons and Cacodemons instead of Hell Knights (although that might get boring again if they disperse too much) Heck, as you said, Imps would be better because the splatter factor will really add to it! Heck, thinking out loud... Imps and then a Cyberdemon or two near the end.
Designing your map to do mental damage to the player is diabolical I can't imagine not saving and coming back after spending 15 minutes shooting big imps
So I'm still early in the video but yeah I did enjoy playing this level once I had the movement down in the first fight I was all good had more trouble with the platforming lol and as for the imps and revenants I died a few times there but that was down to me being careless and letting myself get hit too many times and the reason I'm writing this now is because the part with the imps that you said a couple don't wake up and what was it you needed 1390 demon's remaining at that point I wish I knew that because I ended up eventually getting to the end and I was missing two demon's and for the life of me I could not work out where they were but at least I know now so that's good . Anyway I'm going to carry on with the rest of video and incase I don't add a reply I will simply say as always cheers for upload decino
So yeah the fight at 22:51 in the video I will admit I wasn't so keen on that fight and that's mainly because of the insane amount of hell Knights that really was In desperate need of a cyber demon in that fight and yeah pinkys and revenants are a good combo definitely in the way it was done in this level the other really good combo using pinkys was in valiant being pinkys and arch viles a really good combo that was.
would it work if the hellknight fight closed off the tunnel with the rockets until you did push the switches, spawned enemies at each switch and kinda forced you to fight in a more closed off space or would that be too much for that space? otherwise agree the sandwich would have been a better idea for that and maybe have more enemy types spawn in so it wasnt just noble projectiles flying at you there
![Seungmin "그렇게, 천천히, 우리(As we are)" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kAzmhLHePqU/mqdefault.jpg)
i love how "pull a coincident" does not need an explanation
Face-rocket God is beyond any explanation.
From the amount of refernces being thrown around I almost hope there might be something going on in the future from it. :D
He has been immortalized among the Doom gods!😆
Nope not at all xD
@@Kingdramana 42:00 what a Coincident...
Me: "I'm gonna walk the treadmill for 30 minutes."
Decino: *Uploads a 50 minute Sunder video.*
Me: "I'm gonna walk the treadmill for 50 minutes."
"Welcome to my Paint Dry 100% Ultra Violence play-through. This is map 01, Cyan on wood" sounds like a great April Fool's idea.
Heh, I could see happen painting a Doom related mini in front of screen, then leaving the camera on while the paint dries while simultaneously playing and talking about it casually :)
The saddest thing that has happened to me was that at a single segment attempt, after finishing the last fight with 30 hp, I shot a rocket in relief and face rocketed against the final lift. Love this map still.
Oh lord. May your sanity hold fast, and your fear of Facerocket prevent further temptations.
Lesson learned, celebrate by revving the chainsaw.
38:40 absolutely love how the archnatron death sounds work as a vine boom while you diss them
“attempt number ONE” … there it is indeed! hyped 🧡
"Except the chainsaw..."
Damn i love you mate! Looking forward to this map
Chainsaw lives matter.
I had to make sure to pull the sound replacement for chainsaw from NERF because it's so funny and perfectly represents that weapon, I run it with every wad I play from now on lmao
Gazebo admitted in his interview with Nirvana that he wanted to deliberately put players through a tedious grind occasionally. I'm not sure it's a good idea gameplay wise but he definitely knew what he was doing. Perhaps the feeling you get from forcing your way through so many enemies as you climb the tower is supposed to make you feel like its an exhausting & oppressive struggle against overwhelming, relentless odds. They absolutely cannot allow Doomguy to make it to the top so hell's armies are thrown at you in their thousands to try and ensure it doesn't happen. Makes sense in my own head anyway lol. Anyway, really enjoyed watching you smash through it in 1 attempt, decino. Great job! 👍
Well, I for one think that gazebo was thinking about making the equivalent of a stress ball in Doom with that hell knight fight. Firing an almost endless stream of rockets on hundreds of helpless hell knights is both a power trip and a relaxing moment, both of which are in very short supply in Sunder.
And by the way, if map 11 is the one I think it is, that will be interesting to watch.
He already played map 11 before?
@@M18-v4t Yes, but in a live stream, not single segment
@@shemsuhor8763 yeah i cant wait for it ^.^ the livestream was giggly because he hadn't practiced it or read up on the strats, pretty much blind i think
cant wait! ^.^
The hell knight fight reminds me so much of the infamous Kleer valley if you have played Serious Sam TFE at all
One thing I noticed when I played this map on the final fight is that the center room is just the right size for the archviles. If an archvile targets you at one doorway, it'll hit you right when you reach the next doorway.
It’s nearly 2023 and this man’s mouse is still on the frizz. Christmas present?
For real, Decino. Toss us up an Amazon wishlist link for a good wired mouse
The wired mouse I'm using now is from 2022.
with how much he games he's on a 3rd mouse in two years, lol
@@decino meaning it's not the mouse but the mouse pad
I remember during the stream, you asked Gazebo what he was thinking when he made the fight against hundreds of "big imps" and he said he didn't know what he was thinking either
When I played Sunder for the first time (that time I was playing with mods mostly) I couldn't really comprehend how much time and effort Insane_Gazebo spent on this map alone. But now I can't feel nothing but silent astounishment when I see Sunder maps, especially the later ones like Babylon's Chimera, Archives of the Technomancer or City at the Mouth of Ire. No AAA game developer could replicate the style of Insane_Gazebo. I probably would not play Sunder for 5 maps even on medium difficulty since I'm not a fan of slaughtermaps, but it will always be a special experience in all of my time playing Doom.
First try single-segment run, wow. You're a goddamn Doom God, Decino!
Once thing that impresses me a lot is how beautifully look those sunder maps. The structure of the maps is so beautiful, so good-looking
29:11 "I've read comments people would watch paint dry as long as I spoke over it."
One of RTGame's biggest streams on Twitch was literally watching paint dry, and something like 10k people were watching at one point in time. Never underestimate people's ability to be entertained by literally anything.
People watch streams of people sleeping so yeah, watchers be weird sometimes. xD
Hi decino, I have a crippling pain in my lower back that affects the way I walk. This pain is dulled when I watch your videos and your easygoing vibe makes me feel better. Thank you
Perfect... after a 13 hour shift at work, there's no better way to unwind than to have a couple of beers and watch Decino smash through some Doom! Keep the vids coming!
36:50 Low key I was cheering for that Pinkie. Last of his kind he was just trying to avenge his 1000 dead brothers.
At 9:57 going down the stairs with the beat was satisfying
personally i enjoy these longer videos. i either A: light up a doobie, then sit down crack open a nice cold beer or B: enjoy my meal as i watch you destroy these maps that are too difficult for me lol thanks for the amazing content/commentary.
Only one attempt? You've really improved during your streaming career, kinda curious what other crazy shit you'll do in one take!
Totally agree!
There needs to be a way to increase the camera's vertical offset so you can show things from a slightly higher perspective. That'd let you show off some of the insane architecture in some of these maps.
That's what we call freelook. And i always use that option in GZDoom
Yeah, freelook is available in the source ports but a lot of Doom purists dislike it.
You can do that in GZDoom without necessarily using freelook.
Doom asmr is actually the only asmr i like and is super effective for relaxing, that's why i watch your videos to fall asleep (and then rewatch them in the morning)
he could read aloud the iOS terms and conditions and we would still tune in
And there we are again :) Man, there are no brakes on the Decino train eh?
The decino train- a distant relative of the Revenant Bus?!
This map is like "Insane_Gazebo Does Going Down MAP01"
5:12 Criminy I've never seen an enemy get blasted that far before! (tnx to the stairs)
Kid named hags finger
I was waiting all day for this moment, to sit here and watch this episode of Sunder, I'm ready with a cup of tea and crisps! Attempt number 1 hooooly crap! no matter if hard or easy map, it's still Sunder :D
14:37 it's Friday and this Lost Soul don't give a damn :D
23:56 earrape!
Imagine fighting those hell knights with only SSG :D
You nailed this map, great gameplay!
This is the first long and heavily populated map in 2009 Sunder. Even Okuplok took 40 mins to clear it.
Okuplok? 40 min? r u sure?
@@Ish-RUclips
Yes, Okuplok as in the speedrunner.
@@DinnerForkTongue
40 min is the fastest ever?
Or Decino's run?
Because this is super fast..
You forgot the single reason why we don't want to fast forward even the tedious parts of the map - we want to enjoy the soothing voice-over of a true youtube-gamer... ;)
...haha watched one minute longer and you mentioned it yourself. "Decino paints walls and comments it - 2 h 40 minutes livestream"-when?
The first time I saw this map, just that opening view. That's all you need. Incredible map.
I definitely enjoyed watching you play this map. I also like the midi from Duke Nukem.
Kind of interesting that the song they used for this map is from Duke Nukem 3D. It really does fit the tone of this game.
It’s the music for the map The Abyss, which decino played a spanish doom remake of just recently
Prince's songs for Duke Nukem fit Doom better than DN3D itself. (A few of Lee Jackson's too, but not many)
First Sunder video I watch at 2x speed. What a slog... Good commentary though, as always.
"Sorry, honey... I'm going to be coming home late tonight. 1000 hell knights are blocking the road again."
The less stressful stage was a welcome reprieve for me too.
Been binge watching this playlist and I can finally relax after clenching my butthole while watching the several previous videos in a row.
And then not long after after I posted that, you ate a point blank Cyber rocket and my butthole clenching resumed.
Ooh boy, and up next, The Furnace! That's the one I've been waiting for in this mini-project tbh.
Not even 2 minutes in the map, and you allready catched one of your own rocjkets.
I agree with you. This is one of the easiest Sunder levels. However, that ending fight is no joke. Even the slightest hiccup can potentially screw you over.
Hag's finger is definitely an experience, although I noticed you stayed below during the pain elemental wave, but I stayed above by the switch. Which honestly is more risky now that I think about it, since they can enter through the window too there. Good luck in the next map :D
How oddly coincident that this music of Duke Nukem's level is in this Sunder Map when you just did Doom 2 Spain in Map 24 of Duke's Map which is very odd but very cool at the same time! 🤔
35:45-36:12 169% Health & Armor.......niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice! 😎🍹
Overall it's a very cool map to see here but gameplay wise, not so much. Indeed climbing to the tower is always fun to do! Very awesome gameplay as usual! 😄👍
Despite your best efforts, a few Coincidents were pulled. That Cyber in the graveyard hurt to watch.
This map is even more brown than Doom in Spain only
Got to agree: the concept of this is amazing.
The last few minutes always find a way to keep the suspense going!
14:26 your moment of zen.
32:32 "BMD challenge" LOL!
37:43
Nooo, you missed 2 boxes of cells at the top of the stairs that leads to the current (pinkies revanents) area!
Ah, softlocking bugs. Instant S+ tier.
hey decino. i've got an idea for a newe video: Doom Specs
- how big is the back pack of doom guy physically
- how strong is doom guy lifting all weapons and ammo
- how fast is doom guy
- why does doom guy don't get damage by his own BFG
- how much force does a berzerk punch have
- ...
the hells middle finger
"We get all the weapons right at the beginning."
Oh wow, is he actually gonna use the ch-
"Except the chainsaw, which I find a bit weird."
44:49
🎵That’s Decino in the corner
That’s Decino in the spotlight
Losing all his armour🎵
"Don't get too cocky fox". Amazing run i must to say i enjoyed every moment of kill the horde of hellknights
just after 46:40 when decino says "down," first time I've really heard his voice shaking lol
Attempt no 1 absolutely amazing.
The bad part reminds me of the kleer alley part in Serious Sam, except there I was shredding hundreds of kleer and it was a fun fight of dumping ammo and hoping not to get pushed back to the pit, vs here in doom it's just slowly firing a rocket launcher to slowly kill hell knights.
Nice run pumpkin man
I wonder if the mapper could have added an "anti cheesing" element for the hell knight and stair fight. Like since some of the monsters are stuck and instead of cleanup, make a monster teleporter that exploits their ai so they teleport behind you? The fight would be a bit more high risk, high reward because you knock out two fights at once because you get to have the infighting but are at risk of getting sandwiched.
Anyways, always good to watch! Thanks for the video
I enjoyed the hellknigh ASMR
Imagine how much the Doomslayer's arm hurts after using the rocket launcher over 500 times. 🤣
Huh, at that huge hell knight fight about 30 minutes into the map, I wonder if it's possible to accidentally trigger an intercepts overflow bug thanks to all the corpses?
Since the maps are kind of designed around Boom there cannot be an intercepts overflow.
@@decino oh really? I didn't know Boom fixed the intercepts bug. Does that one gimmick map in NERF 1 not work in Boom then?
Nope. NERF is limit removing, not Boom.
"So, you like Hellknights eh? Well, try all the Hellknights in the world!"
Seriously thinking of downloading Sunder to run it with Russian Overkill and Nashgore, but I'm concerned my laptop will just die trying to render so many sprites and effects all at once.
I'm playing it with Brutal Doom Black, and at points it chugs on my gaming desktop. So proceed with caution.
Nashgore won't be an issue if Sunder itself isn't. Russian Overkill is a different story.
and after it - there is The Furnace - the biggest so far. Totally mess. :) Long. Exhausting. Hardcore. Good luck ! You are going to beat it. It will hurt. You will swear a lot. But Finally in 2-digit attept - it will finally be beaten by you. ;)
I love how decino pretends the chainsaw isnt there, good man
1:51 DID THAT PINKY SURVIVED A ROCKET?!?!?!?!
12.5% chance of happening.
"Watch paint dry if I spoke over it" is a good one.
Damn, this whole map is one finger?!
I love how "pulling a Coincident" is a thing. Imagine being immortalized in the Doom community for face-rocketing!
oh boy this video length and kill count is guaranteed to offer a good time
Decino, The Doom Mechanic!
"more tedious than challenging," sunder in a single sentence
22:13 And yet I still hear a certain sprite fixing Half-Life expert saying "that's not nearly enough!"
10:00 timing with the music
Greetings Decino ❤️❤️❤️❤️
Should’ve called this map “Kid Named Finger”.
You are not pulling a coincident unless you do a loud-ass keyboard asmr 😁 love him!
First things first, i would love to watch you commentating over paint drying. That would one of the best days of my life. Second, i really respect your... resilience? Sturdiness? I just gave up on an hour long Hollow Knight boss rush because of just how absurdly boring it is - all that just so you die to one of the three last bosses. I don't know how this works on you, but the challenger in me died long ago
First attempt?! Holy moly.
I wasn’t expecting that either.
Doom is my favorite game to watch
I find rocketing big groups of imps really satisfying how so many die at once gives me that real power fantasy feel :) but yes also love rocketing groups of Revenants
The problem with the HK fight is that you don't have to move. Just standing in one spot gets boring quickly. To fix this fight, you'd have to add something that forces the player to move around more. Maybe one or two sniping Cyberdemons?
pumpkin man beats hag named finger!
If I had to fix the boring Hell Knight, I got 3 options:
- A Cyberdemon or two as you suggested
- A mixture of Imps and Cacodemons instead of Hell Knights
- Demons and Cacodemons instead of Hell Knights (although that might get boring again if they disperse too much)
Heck, as you said, Imps would be better because the splatter factor will really add to it! Heck, thinking out loud... Imps and then a Cyberdemon or two near the end.
26:15 - Gazebo explained exactly what he was thinking on Nirvana's podcast: ruclips.net/video/koD6kbj2WpU/видео.html
Designing your map to do mental damage to the player is diabolical
I can't imagine not saving and coming back after spending 15 minutes shooting big imps
12:27 More like 11 more times
Insane_Gazebo, such a creative visualist
Decino paint drying 175k stream when??
16/16 items, Big Mac Davis would be proud 🥲
dude, attempt number ONE?????
I swear to god, if map 12 opens with
"ok, attempt number one"
you could prolly beat map 15 tbh. no saves
He already did in his live stream
@@M18-v4t without saves. Not with them, same way he does it in these vids
Decino kills hell knights with a rocket launcher ASMR that could have potential.
It's not game over at the first platform section. There are teleporters down there too.
So I'm still early in the video but yeah I did enjoy playing this level once I had the movement down in the first fight I was all good had more trouble with the platforming lol and as for the imps and revenants I died a few times there but that was down to me being careless and letting myself get hit too many times and the reason I'm writing this now is because the part with the imps that you said a couple don't wake up and what was it you needed 1390 demon's remaining at that point I wish I knew that because I ended up eventually getting to the end and I was missing two demon's and for the life of me I could not work out where they were but at least I know now so that's good . Anyway I'm going to carry on with the rest of video and incase I don't add a reply I will simply say as always cheers for upload decino
So yeah the fight at 22:51 in the video I will admit I wasn't so keen on that fight and that's mainly because of the insane amount of hell Knights that really was In desperate need of a cyber demon in that fight and yeah pinkys and revenants are a good combo definitely in the way it was done in this level the other really good combo using pinkys was in valiant being pinkys and arch viles a really good combo that was.
Last archvile at 5:10 was like "oh ᶠᵘᶜᵏ"
don't be afraid,
Ruuun! Whahahahahahaha
scream for me archie
Yellow dots! It could be you, it could be me! it could even be-!
would it work if the hellknight fight closed off the tunnel with the rockets until you did push the switches, spawned enemies at each switch and kinda forced you to fight in a more closed off space or would that be too much for that space?
otherwise agree the sandwich would have been a better idea for that and maybe have more enemy types spawn in so it wasnt just noble projectiles flying at you there
Looks like during this operation Doomguy did more blapmooh than all Cybs together.
"The city of Osgiliath, has been reclaimed! FOR GONDOR!"
(For Gondor!)
"FOR GONDOR!"
(For Gondor!)
"FOR GONDOR!"
(For Gondor!)
This is my boi decino.
Map 11 calls to you, decino...