Water Testing Spray Foam Insulation
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- Опубликовано: 17 май 2018
- Thanks to accellapolyurethane.com for sponsoring this video. We are looking at the differences between Open and Closed Cell SPF. Matt explores the water absorbing properties and makes recommendations on where to use each in your next BUILD!
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I use to be an applicator as I had my own employees and equipment when I was a new home builder to apply the closed cell foam. One thing you MUST know if you have a conscience and or have loved ones benefiting from the great insulation is that in the case of a house fire, even though the foam has or should have fire retardants , in the presence of flame the foam puts off cyanide gas. CYANIDE POISON gas. One breath of this stuff and you are incapacitated unlike regular smoky wood buildings. If you doubt me the chemical name for the cured foam is Poly-ISO-Cyanurate. Do you see the cyanide component ? That is one reason why all building codes require fire barriers covering all foam in areas that are inhabited. My family and relatives have saved many thousands of dollars in utility costs over the twenty years since I built their homes and they enjoy stupendous savings in heating and cooling as I went a little overboard in thickness since it was my own house and I was the wholesale applicator for myself. ie 2x6 exterior walls filled and 2x10s roof members filled in addition to R-25 batts above the ceiling and R 8 batts between floors as sound insulation. So be very very careful to not do stupid things that the insurance companies say cause 80 percent of all fires like Storing gas in garages with water heaters and burning candles and using cheap chimneys.
BTW, the entire marine and boating industry uses closed cell poly-iso-cyanurate ( poly-urethane ) foams as floatation in boats and floats because it will NOT soak up water.
Further there are off-gases immediately after spraying while curing that is
VERY TOXIC so make absolutely sure you have large fans blowing
for ventilation and you must vacate the house for at least 24 hours after spraying and be sure to provide plenty of ventilation.
I had an applicator that inhaled too much of the off-gas and he had to go to hospital intensive care for 2 days because of suffering pulmonary edema. ( swelling around lungs and heart that prevents breathing and intake of oxygen from the air.)
This seems like a lot of negative but this foam is absolutely magic when it comes to saving money... Your dwelling can become futuristic thermal spaceships if properly taken advantage of. I just wanted to fill in with some important missed but critical details.
I really really appreciate your comment. I'm looking to used ccSPF as an air sealant / vapour barrier in my attic before adding blown in cellulose insulation...I've also seen horrific videos of families having to move out of their homes because of off gassing....I'm really reluctant to use it as an air sealer but it's what everyone is recommending.
great info Scott, thanks for sharing
Thank you for the comment!! I plan to use it for crafting waterfall. I will be outside but I have COPD. I will NOW wear a mask!!!!
Hey Scott, I am planning on using the foam for some outdoor projects, that would be the foam in bulk pieces. It will be painted with house paint or stained and sealed. These large objects would remain outdoors, in the sun... would there be any issues with gases, rain or sun exposer?
Hey no need to worry about that in California as the cost is 5 times more than in Florida for instance. It makes no cost sense to use it. My Florida home has closed cell and its the best for keeping the electric bills low and noise out.
Nice to see honest and humble people still exist. 👌 nice video and thanks for the info found it helpful.
Quite revealing. Great information. I was under the impression as well that open cell would allow you to detect roof leaks.
Love these tests. Thank you for educating the community.
Really enjoy these in-depth videos with demonstrations. I would be interested in seeing more focused versus videos like this one.
I'm converting a portable building into a home, and after the wiring is done, insulation is next. Of course, everyone swears by whatever their preference happens to be. Most people I talk to say spray-in foam is the way to go, but I'm not sold. This demonstration was most educational - thank you.
We just had litigation in my town in regarding a closed cell foam improperly installed. The installers filled 2x8 rafters completely full with foam. They installed it in the winter and now the summer heat has caused to foam to off gas and the house is uninhabitable. The foam company came back and removed the entirety of the foam and reinstalled the foam, but this time they sprayed in 3 rounds at 2” at a time and allowed off gassing at the thinner depth. The house has since been completed. Thanks to a ethical company the home owner wasn’t stuck with a house they couldn’t live in.
That is interesting because as an industrial hygienist who has studied the affects of these type products on human health, there is little to no impact on building occupants. That's not to say the homeowner wasn't happy with the smell. I'm just saying there isn't much from a health standpoint to be worried about.
Bonnd T, that is true, but it doesn't make the contractor liable.
It wasn't off gassing from spraying to thick that would cause this. You never spray closed cell more than 4in lifts because it can overheat and burn inside. The problem you describe would be from the ratio between the A and B side being off. Usually a good sprayer can see it while spraying and will stop but if it is barely fat enough off it can be missed.
Good they had a company that did the right thing. Most foam companies will do that and are very ethical but every industry had a few who aren't ethical.
I have heard of this happening in other cases on the news. I was under the impression that if the closed cell foam is not mixed properly, then this is what can happen.
And although some like to claim the gases are not toxic, they are very much toxic and harmful to human health.
Thankfully, the company in this case pulled out the bad stuff and corrected the problem.
if the components mix is slightly off, it can actually cause some more serious issues, as well as smells. Not sure if that is the case here as we have no info, but in that case, the contractor would be liable. either way, if the company wasn't liable, they did the right thing by their customers, and that always comes back around in a positive way eventually.
Glad I came across this video. Thank you for comparing and sharing.
Thank you Matt, pros and cons to all insulation!
Great test Mat. Very thorough. Great work.
They told me the same thing when I used it in the ceiling rafters but come to find out you're never going to find a leak through the open cell or the closed cell so I recommend using closed-cell all the way at least you get the structural strength from it
On the build show!! That was a cool video. I am still wondering about foam because it seems like there are a lot of negative potentials and its very expensive. But its always good to learn more about it. Thanks Matt!
Arne Johansson Foam may cost more but it is one of the few building items that actually pays for itself in energy savings in a few years, depending on climate.
Excellent scientific test you've done ✔. Great work on proving the point.
I am a spray foam contractor in North Alabama and I agree with everything you said in this video. Well done. My only reservation is that maybe the foam and water would act differently with sheathing on one side as in a true application.
Thank you Scott. That is good information to know.
I love that SOG Twitch. Great knife, they used to carry them at Lowe’s.
Great stuff to know. Thank you for sharing.
Great videos Matt, thank you.
Thank you Matt . . . another good one
Thanks Matt, your information presented and the comments from readers tends to lead me to use Roxul insulation tried and trusted for my barn rafters? I am sure spray foam open or closed is beneficial when applied properly but not in my rafters.
Good approach. I would suggest to dip both the foams in coloured liquid for 24 hrs and slice it laterally to understand the seepage characterics.
Great job, this is probably the most useful video I have ever seen about polyurethane waterproof properties.
Could you please make a video about the acoustic isolation properties?
I would really appreciate it.
Thanks in advance.
Closed cell foam will NOT help with acoustic isolation, I don't know about open cell, but I assume it would be better, due to it's less dense properties
Finally the answer I was looking for, thank you 😊
Great demonstration of what REALLY happens. I've heard horror stories about water penetration with both types of spray foam. Now I know what to watch out for and some mitigation ideas. Thx so much.
Very informative for me, thank you!
Great demo. Trying to decide how to insulate a camper van conversion.
What did you go with?
Picture framing stud bays with spray foam to close air gaps and using rockwool as the main insulation is the way to go. Or go with SIPs.
Great video! Thanks for the demo.
Very welcome
Very helpful video! Much appreciated
Love your videos Matt. As a student of construction management, these videos often teach me more information than the classes I have to take at school. Love to know what I am talking about on the jobsite. Thanks
Great video and tutorial on the difference between open and close cell foam. #greatjob
A great practical demonstration that should cause concern for anyone considering spray foam under their roof deck. It appears that both open and closed foam can trap and hold water against the roof deck for an extended period. Obviously this raises the potential for wood rot. And with both materials the location of any trapped water may or may not be easily detected. As a result of this video, I am reconsidering the use of open cell foam against the roof deck for my upcoming house build.
DaveC I see your point but in my mind the risk out weighs the gain. The energy and air seal benefits out weight the leak risk. It is akin to saying we should not install drywall or wall insulation in case the siding fails. If a POTENTIAL leak is the concern we as an industry would look at ways to build a better roof not a poorer insulated home. There are always trade offs but this one can be overcome.
That is a good concern to have. One thought that came to mind is how often do people go through a routine check of potential rotting/leaking in these places that are hard to get to anyway? A major leak can be easy to detect quickly, but that slow, almost undetectable leak that happens over a long time, will probably cause damage regardless of what type of insulation, no?
I've been investigating this. I just had my roof replaced along with some sheething where the old 3 tab went bad (obviously in a hurricane ridden area). Either way, I've been looking at adding rafter baffles from the soffit to the ridge vent. This will still allow the roof to breathe and essentially keep the shingles cooler lengthening their lifespan. I plan on spraying over the baffles which will allow me to replace sheething easily if a leak ever develops. Granted, noticing the leak will be a concern when/if it happens.
But the time you see a roof leak that bad it will show in ceiling fix the leak fix the foam absurd reason not use foam
Make sure you can get a mortgage on the house before hand before you foam inside of your roof. Banks, lenders can't inspect the roof and will not finance a sale if they can't confirm the roofs condition.
I am glad that you helped the people in texas
Very educational and points for rockin’ a SOG Twitch
Wow, thank you Matt
Very informative. Thank you.
This is why in my research for SIPS I have found that very few of the companies offer SIPS with closed cell foam.
Hello Matt, I am very skeptical about "24 hour" tests on foam. I have been around fiberglass boats since the late fifties and I can tell you that most were advertised (and still are) as close celled, much looked like isocyanurate while other colors and makes also were used. Bear in mind that these are sandwiched between layers of fiberglass being in theory fully adhered. Every single one stored in the water or in outside weather had varying degrees of water absorption. Some were literally soaked through. Water entered through mounting holes and sometimes at the 'shoe box' meeting of the deck and hull. To me that is quite an indictment for it to migrate so far from such small openings. This applies to above waterline structures as well as the hull below. The intrusion begins immediately and can reach full saturation in a few years. It will have to be seen in the long term (ten, twenty and more--how long do you want your house to last?) whether it actually performs as well as you say. I am a bit conservative when it comes to enclosing things in walls and would have to stay with mineral wool or fiberglass as of now and most especially so when it comes to price point (in low population rural areas it can get very very expensive!). Good topic for discussion. Take care. Doug
MATT!!!! Two hands on the saw!! My friend used a saw the same way you did and it jumped up out of the groove and cut his hand real bad. great video btw. thanks for sharing.
Very interesting for me to see this video. Kind of at a good time also. What would you do if your 'attic' area was also going to be sheet'ed over? Would you even risk foaming? Or use foam boards instead?
It seems that you could use the open cell for maximum coverage if you could find some kind of water proofing to top it off with.
Thank you for the knowledge.
Can you do any vids on residential geothermal systems and if you have radiant heat in concrete floors does it (over time) make the concrete more susceptible to cracking due to the heat speeding up curing?
I have not seen much about synthetic stucco and sealing rim joists. Based on your comments at the end of the video it sounds like open cell would be fine in this situation. Since in the sand hills of North Carolina it is humid and I am double checking.
Great demo
I had open cell foam sprayed under my sheathing and 14 years later when I reroofed my house (asphalt shingle roof was failing) I found some rot and there was no sign of water in the attic under those areas. I wanted to never have to reroof again so I personally installed a customized stainless steel roof.
Shld have sprayed closed cell
Mike Oxmall hindsight is always 20/20
I love metal roofs! My current house has one and I never have to worry about leaks.
I never heard of stainless steel roofing, but I have seen roofs that had spray foam right against the sheathing and the sheathing was totally dissolved and came off like wet cardboard. The south side was fine because it got enough heat to dissipate the moisture. It needs to have a vented air gap between the sheathing and the insulation in order to be sprayed up against the roof.
@@astoltzfus4,
They must have had a leaky roof for the sheathing to get wet. Venting is not needed if the roof dose not leak, but it is better.
Great video, exactly what I was looking for!
Great video! You should be on TV!
ON TARIO people still watch TV? Lol
Haha, some people I know. I don't have cable though.
So, proper application is key to closed cell foam, especially at the corners.
Brilliant experiment, really helpful
Thank you 🙏🏻
Not really, needs got test long term exposure to moisture. Closed cell foams will absorb water over time. Do a search on flotation foam in boats.
@@bryanturner683
That’s why it needs to be the right product in the right place in the right environment.
@@OMGAnotherday No actually it means he should have tested it longer than. overnight. Going to be lots of problems with this stuff.
I wonder if a "leak point" would be a good choice for spray foaming rafter bays, similar to the weep holes in brick siding courses? A small diameter tube sprayed in place at the bottom of the rafter bay would release any trapped liquid water and act as an indicator of a leak, while indicating water entry into the bay from a leak. If you really wanted to get fancy and still avoid ceiling damage, run the bay's leak indicators together into a drain tube and terminate it at the eaves like some municipalities require for the AC auxiliary drain to be set up. When dripping shows a leak, pop the tubing free from the weep tubes and you can localize the leak point(s).
Hi Matt, I love all your videos and watch them often since I’ll be starting a new build in Spring. I live in the SW corner of Colorado, at about 7800 ft elevation. Are you familiar with the product called Icynene? It is a newer spray foam that has a castor oil plant base. I would like to know your opinion on it if you are familiar. Also, when doing spray foam in the attic, can the spray foam be put on the attic floor vs. the rafters? If so, what other precautions would need to be done?
Hey Matt, timely video! I am going to be doing some spray foaming in the coming month and was unsure to go with open or closed. Now I am sure that the closed is the way to go.
One product that I am using is called insofast. I know you don't do basements, but I'd be curious about your thoughts on this product. Might be worthy of a vid.
I was doing electrical work at a house that had just gotten open cell insulation and it started leaking when it rained
When you put it in a closed box it'll squeeze the cell's from open to semi closed could be why it takes so long to soak in
You just made up my mind to spend the 10k for the closed cell in my 30x60x12 ALL metal building. Thanks Matt !
How did this work out for you. I’m putting up a 30x60 and I’m debating the insulation I should use.
What is the side effect for using spray foam insulation can and long term
Great video.
We have an older 51 yr old house that had no wall insulation at all, just hollow. Just had an open cell foam installed from the outside. Installed through brick on the bottom and aluminum on top. I can already tell the difference in the air being warmer. Solid foam was not possible. This gives about the same R value as fiberglass batts. Did not want to rip the walls out, this will not settle as cellulite does, and the end job was very clean. Highly recommend Cornerstone Insulation in The Salt Lake City, Utah area for price, quality, and professional application!
How's it holding up?
Matt Good tech on water characteristics of spray foam. Are you still using open cell in attic rafters w Carlisle 300HT underlayment for metal roof WRB in TX? BTW you would make a good Aggie by using a dead sawzall to cut through materials. Gig'em
Would it be better to use open cell under roof deck in pa where I live to allow for breathing out condensation
Why not do this experience again, but put it totally in water for 24hours, thanks for you good advices
Does anyone have information about the polyurethane foam іnsulation after many years of operation?
They used to use open cell in boats for flotation. Now its closed cell only. Leave those outside for 10 years, and it will be night and day. If they had a recall on boats with open cell foam, the industry would have been sunk.⛵
So should you spray waterproofing onto all your framing before applying closed cell spray foam? Would that prevent water from soaking through the wood joints, or should you apply caulking between every wood joint? Would closed cell foam stick to waterproofed wood surfaces? How about placing a sheet of clear plastic on your studs and joists, then nailing on your sheathing, then applying self-adhesive weather blocking? Would that be overkill?
My Brother put open cell in a boat that had holes in it and the foam took in water many years later he checked the foam it still was soaked through.
I would have liked to know a little more about the vapor or air difference between the two types of foam.
I was told that both open and closed cell will act as air barriers, while for vapor, open cell is never a vapor barrier. Closed cell is, once thicker than two inches. This from a certification course for sprayfoaming
Good info. Thanks.
Always wondered if they made good contact in the corners; have never liked open cell foam. One doesn't have to be in construction to know it would absorb water. Have worked with other kinds of open cell foam in other applications and the wind would go right through it. I shouldn't think it would be any different for construction foam.
hi love your vids...thanks for that..im wondering what your thoughts would be for spray foam for adding extra insulation for my mobile home??...im thinking of using this for my skirting but maybe also to add extra to my under belly??..i live in canada and sometimes gets to -40 c....also im wondering if i spray my water lines could that cause issues if i have a leak??...just wondering and would like your thoughts...thanks for your time...p.
What would happen if you had a foundation leak with closed cell? Would the water just run down the wall? How would you get to the leak to fix it?
What noise dampening characteristics do these products have?
Because of poisonous gas in the event of a fire, what is your opinion on AirKrete? I believe it's 3.9/in and expensive, but I like the benefits.
Is the open cell damaged or will it dry out and be back too good?
Great info, thanks. Any thoughts on application on metal roof, south Texas???
Useful information.
I plan to spray foam my attic, I’ve heard use open (different video). Seeing this demo, I like the close cell foam. Which one should I use? I live in the southwest.
Why am I watching this I don’t even own a house
Thats funny you mention that I don’t ones one also..bud still watching this, still interesting to see
Knowledge is Power
😂
I’m watching this because i have a boat!
Because you are smart and will build a house with all the metals (especially Silver) that you bought low and sold stupid high.
Thanks, Matt! This is fantastic analysis and clarifies many myths. The other part to this is vapor permeability with closed cell significantly more impermeable. I understand if two passes of closed cell will yield tighter envelop as the hard crust layer will act as vapor trap. Is this true?
@Matt Risinger what are your thoughts on this spray foam nightmare video news coverage? Makes me leery of going anywhere near the stuff?
Cool video man
Like your vids Matt. As a ResNet Rater, I've seen some pretty tight houses with open cell, but as a true green building fanatic, I'm personally not a fan of any foam. Thanks for the experiment though, it was informative.
thanks for your comment. Are you not a fan of any foam because it is not "Environmentally friendly" or because of it's performance, etc?
Hey Jordan. Foam's performance as an insulator is great. But yes, I have an environmental objection with using it. Besides being petroleum based with high embodied energy, spray foam makes deconstructing these homes very difficult and cost prohibitive. This pretty much ensures that the entire wall assembly will end up in a land fill at the end of the home's life, rather than being reused.
There is also a long-term durability concern: As Matt's experiment demonstrates, spray foam is likely to hide the presence of a leak, and even contribute to rotting if the foam forces the water to the joints and soaking into the wood, as was the case in this video.
Which brings us to human health concerns. Wet wood attracts mold, which everyone knows is bad. Spray foam can off-gas for a long time, which is also bad for the inhabitants of a tight house. You can even find a few examples of botched spray foam jobs rendering homes inhabitable (hopefully more rare as the industry matures). Regardless, I kind of have a rule: anything requiring a hazmat suit during installation probably shouldn't be in my house.
Despite my concerns, I do think foam products have a place in sustainable building. It does an excellent job air sealing around doors and windows, and that's fine with me because it's such a small amount compared to caking the whole roof deck. I also understand the need for northern climates to boost that R-value in the roof, in which case I would prefer foam board because it's created in quality controlled factory conditions. Foam board is also applied externally, which eliminates indoor air quality concerns, and still allows the home to be disassembled for reuse later.
Sorry for the long reply, just love talking about this stuff. Cheers
Jeff Mathers thanks so much for your in depth response. I really appreciate it. I’ve built a few homes, the most recent with an airtight combination of open and closed form. I’m going to be building another one very soon and want to learn about all of the best technologies and practices these days. I will look further into all of this and if you have any further information Or links you can pass along I would greatly appreciate it.
Jordan Lane-Miller Good for you Jordan. My degree is in Sustainability management and I geared my curriculum towards green building as much I could. But I'm by know means an expert and I try to learn as much as I can. I just purchased a lot and planning my first (maybe only) house. I live in Florida so insulation doesn't have to be astronomical: planning about R-22 of dense-pack cellulose in the walls and R-40ish under the deck, not sure of what yet but I'm leaning towards mineral wool. I'm also planning to coat the sheathing with CAT-5 or similar product for my air/vapor barrier, and let it dry to the inside by swapping out the drywall with an interior wood siding. Haven't really seen anyone do this before so hopefully I won't end up with a soggy mess. I'm just going by what I've learned about how water and vapor behaves in my environment.
Also, as far as resources go, if you haven't already I would suggest looking up Hammer & Hand (hammerandhand.com). They do passive house homes near Seattle and have some great videos on the builds they've done (each build is a series of pretty in-depth videos). There's also the Green Building Advisor and Energy Vanguard, both of which have some great articles. Good luck man.
My house is on a stilt foundation. The bottom of the house sits about 8 feet off the ground. You said closed cell would be better for the underside of a house but in my circumstance, would open cell be ok?
I watched my boss spray 2 bathrooms and a closet with the open cell spray foam packs you can buy at home depot. He didn't use a vapor barrier because he didn't understand the differences of foam.
I wonder what those bathrooms are going to do in the winter 🤔.
I'm in Alberta btw
Matt, please note that the open cell foam was cut and the cellular structure of the insulation exposed to the water. Would closed cel foam react the same way if it was cut in a similar fashion?
I was talking with a spray foam contractor and he tries to not cut/shave the open cell because he says it does resist water a bit better...
I've always been curious, how does spray foam handle building settling for new construction? Will cracks appear, and you just have to go back and fill it with expanding foam in a can after a few years, or is it flexible enough that it will hold the air seal even with some building settling?
Very good question. The answer is that It cracks.
good video ... ? i have a antique boat all aluminum the frame work under floor is built roughly 12 in by 12 in.squares and rivets leak i filled 1 square with foam not knowing i was open cell and yes its a sponge ? is how well do you think the closed cell will bond to the aluminum frame work ........thank you for your time
@Mike Towers ; The closed cell will bond to Al framework very well, even better than shit to nappies.
very informative video :)
The burning question I have is just that. What type of toxic fumes come off this stuff when it's burned? Is it deadly? Would you die faster in a fire if your house was insulated with it?
I used it in my new constructed cabin/cottage. If i were to do it again i would just air seal first then use typical kraft faced fiberglass insulation.
My question is hand balm that you see at the Lowe's and depots 3 + $5 is that open cell or closed cell foam I've been told by a certain store two different things I'd like to know the professional answer on this
What kind of hose was used in that attic space video section? It looked very agile.
How difficult is this to remove in water damage situations? I work in water mitigation, but I haven’t come across foam insulation yet.
How about on a car rocker panel with bondo with the closed cell foam
I have a duplex that doesn't have a sound barrier between units. Could foam insulation be used spraying thru holes between studs?
Would it do any good?
I was advised to have closed cell spray foam sprayed directly onto my poured concrete basement walls (no studs)to concerve energy costs. My concrete walls occasionally leak in a few spots only when a heavy rain or a lot of snow melts. The worst spot is where an old cistern used to be. What will happen at those leak spots after the spray foam application is done? Is there any chance that mold will grow there?
Long time to wait for an. answer but ALL two part foams will absorb water if exposed over time. If you have any seepage in your wall your foam will absorb it. Do as search on flotation foam in boats. Tons of them with soaked foam. I would NEVER use this stuff for insulation in a home. Closed or open , no difference.
In the south, with the high humidity, if spraying roof raters with open cell, do you need to spray a vapor barrier after the foam installation?
Short answer is you never ever ever use open cell where moisture is an issue. Boat hulls and insulation.. no open cell.
You should be required watching for every residential contractor (and structural engineer)!
That’s really kind. Thanks !
Love your channel....I live in NYC and if I use closed cell for rim joists, do I run the same risk of wood rot if any leaking?
Yes
I did my rim joists with 4" of closed cell followed by filling them up lots and all the cantilevers with open cell foam. That gave me the moisture and vapor barrier to the outdoors. You cant get a vapor barrier like that with plastic.
Hey Matt. What are your thoughts about off-gassing from spray foam?