My experience working on Untitled Magnet Game directly inspired this episode - I'm back to working on the game, so Developing should return in the near future!
One time I commented on an old GMTK video about how each one consists of him saying "interesting" in his curt accented fashion, and mentioning Spelunky. He then replied with a comment saying "Derek Yu is my spirit animal."
Spelunky is so iconic it made the roguelite systems really popular, which people then paired with various genres. The Binding of Isaac is a shoot them up, Hades is a beat them up, Enter the Gungeon is a twin stick shooter, Crypt of the Necrodancer is a rythm game, Slay the Spire is a card game...
Having dinner with Mark probably goes like this: "You know, that's the great thing about Spelunky..." *goes on a ten minute ramble* "Umm, yeah, Mark, that's really interesting, but could you pass the salt now, please?"
I feel like a major factor in combining genres is that there are different kinds of genres. For example, roguelike, simulator, and mmo describe how a game is designed. Platformer, turn based, or fps describe a input methods. Platformer roguelike works as it describes how a game is designed and how it plays. Meanwhile, saying "roguelike sim" or "turn based fps" don't work as well since you have genres that compete for the design/input genres. Not to say these can't exist, but it would have to be done *very* carefully to work.
@@themanwithaplan1391 real time with pause more like turn based is very different as it completely erases finesse and just has you slot your actions in line with everyone else
My favorite "blended" genre mashup would be the survival city builder. Starting with games like Banished but polished with games like Frostpunk. It gives the normally pedestrian city building genre some much needed teeth while still preserving, to an extent. the complexity of a city builder.
I honestly found Frostpunk wayyyy too stressful to play. City Builders are apready rather complex to first pick up, but when you pair that with the punishment for not playing accurately, it really becomes a nightmare to play. Maybe that's just me, but the blend here makes for an unpenetrably tough game.
@@Ryan-ey3qk That is the niche Frostpunk appeals to: a constant state of stress and uncertainty where a small mistake snowballs into defeat. It's not just making a big city, it's planning to see the next day or hour, which is what made it and it's story so memorable. When all the chips are down, when the deck is inherently stacked against you, what would you do?
@@ruffethereal1904 i knoww and I honestly really wanted to get into it. I'd consider myself very open ro trying these kinds of stressful games, but this game stumped me. Frostpunk is my goddamn Everest.
@@Ryan-ey3qk Yeah, it's one of those games where failure and restarting is the point. The irony being, of course, in that you're supposed to be the last hope of humanity, hahaha. Those kinds of games appeal to a certain type of person that don't mind throwing themselves against the base of a mountain, climbing over their previous corpses.
rimworld is kinda similar to what you would want. For me it would be something like Far Cry, you have shooting aspect and farming stuffs but you can also build the community. Only thing lacking in Far Cry for me would be the real sandbox stuffs, like don't have long linier progression and build my own houses. My dream survival builders would be you started at some unknown place, you rescue survivors, you help them get past the initial state and then they'll help you with some chores like gather basic stuffs for you from time to time or prepared bandages for you, then the community progress as you build more houses or if possible you can have basic plan and have NPC slowly build for you while you're adventuring outside. It's quite a complicate thing to work on but it's possible.
The "blend" method has been blowing my mind over the past few years. It's always astonishing how many creative minds there are out in the gaming industry and this feels like one of the best ways to flex those muscles.
I recently wondered if it'd be feasible to blend Minecraft, Shenzhen I/O, and Factorio. You'd live in a Minecraft-like sandbox world and progress by building machines that automate production tasks, however those machines would need to be programmed. It'd be a little bit of a niche game, but still, I like the idea.
@@ThePC007 Well you can find some minecraft modpacks that are pretty automation-heavy, like skyfactory, industrial craft, or enigmatica. The biggest reason why people don't usually include everything is lag when playing minecraft, so that's why you don't load too many mods at the same time.
@@taketheleep I don't think that game lends itself well to a game jam. For one, it's a pretty difficult concept to implement from a technical standpoint, and for two, most people play game jam games for only a few minutes before moving to the next one, so blending three genres, all of which require a considerable time investment to play properly just won't be received very well.
@@iteragami5078 Yeah, the lag is unbearable. :/ Also, chunk loading and unloading kinda ruins factory building. I've been thinking about a way to pre-simulate chunks before unloading them such that when they are loaded again, they appear as if they've never been unloaded, however, things get somewhat complicated when you consider the fact that multiple chunks can interact with each other.
I think the method that pushes the industry forward is the "blend" method, I've seen lots of great indie subgenres come out of it sucah as idle games, auto battler, roguelike, survivor, etc. Survivor-type games, like vampire survivor, are actually just top-down shooters with a focus on risk and progression. It's basically felt like a modern Crimsonland, but it gives a new fresh outlook on the genre. Whenever there is a new subgenre to be explored it always leads up to great new game mechanics.
"Whenever there is a new subgenre to be explored it always leads up to great new game mechanics." Brave of you to say that in the same paragraph that you mentioned idle "games" and auto-battle "games."
@@CoralCopperHead autobattlers aren't like idles at all. they're like a boardgame where you build something and everything gives you a number of victory points at the end. the building part *is* the game. just because you're not pressing the attack button doesn't mean you aren't playing. there are strategy/citybuilder games where you don't necessarily control individual units. by your standards, if one could call them that, games like settlers 2 and dungeon keeper would be idle games.
My favorite combination of genres is eating food while watching GMTK. Sure each genre can be great on its own, but learning these great game design tips while stuffing your face with Lo Mien is the bee’s knees!
Nier: Automata (in fact a lot of Yoko Taro's games) constantly blends space invaders-esque play with action JRPG with platforming with shooter-puzzles (I dunno how to describe them) and it's so damn seamless. I typically found genres harder than others, but it was such a creative way to vary gameplay.
My first time playing Automata the genre flipping was super weird to me. Now though? It's probably my favorite game, and I love the little "mini games" thrown in there
Its predecessor was a big fan of this, too. Action jRPG at its base, but played with things like platformers, PS1 survival horror, isometric dungeon crawlers, and text adventures. I'd consider it a staple of the Nier series, myself.
@@Nickulator It does! Its regular gameplay has a lot of projectile-based attacks in various patterns, some of which can be destroyed by attacks and some that absolutely have to be dodged
Pyre is absolutely my favorite example of genre-blending. It combined the storytelling aspects of visual novels with the high-octane gameplay of a sports game. It's a shame that so many people haven't gotten to experience it!
I was initially on the fence with Sundered. Like Chasm, it's a Metroidvania with procedural level generation. You will always know the general direction you need to go, but never the exact route. And some of the reviews panned the swarm mechanic, where a horde of enemies would randomly start to chase you. But I ended up loving that particular mechanic. Even otherwise trivial platforming becomes thrilling when you have a half a dozen snipers aiming at you, and the randomized map meant that you had to think on your feet. And of course, the ageless choice between fight or flight.
I didn't really like sundered, but mostly for other reasons. I didn't think the random generation added all that much to the game, but it wasn't really a drawback either. It was mostly the combat and nearly complete lack of juice, plus the fact that it's so easy to break that you barely need to play half the game. Oh, and the grinding
@@hiiistrex2838 yeah, it sucked in the combat department too, Lotus Games just seem to suck at finding that middle ground between being challenging demands and obvious time-padding grind fests.
What i hated the most about sundered is that there isn't a dedicated interact button. I was running away trying to lure the swarm into a room where there's more space to fight and i accidentally corrupted one of my special abilities. It was at that point that i deleted the game instantly. Such beautiful art wasted on a game that just does not work.
@@botondkunos1774 I get what you mean, something similar with Pyre happened to me with its the hitboxes having moments where it does register contact or mechanics that straight up don't work when they're supposed to. When mechanics aren't polished and they lift weight in the core gameplay/game-feel it's impossible to not feel the mood die.
I actually want to go back to the very start, where Mark points out that genres are post hoc categorization--but then, we spend the rest of the video talking about them as though the genres themselves are... basically, a standard that game developers have to measure up to, to such a degree that you then have to justify combining different genres (to the public, or to a publisher) even if they are obviously compatible. An easy example of this is Portal, or rather, Narbacular Drop, the indie game that paved the way for Portal. First-person puzzle games existed before that, but people couldn't think of anything particular great to do with a first-person camera except shoot people or provide immersion in a role-playing or adventure game. Narbacular Drop, and Portal after it, provided a fascinating window into using the first person camera as a constraint in a puzzle game, and then breaking that constraint in the most mind-bending ways, and there are several modern 3D puzzle games that doubtless would not have been finished or funded without that kind of proof that a novel set of mechanics was worth considering a "genre". Many genres nowadays--especially Roguelikes and Rogue-lites--are nearly arbitrary collections of mechanics, and it's worth considering that we will discover new combinations and therefore new "genres" as we go along. That said, what genres do for us is provide lessons that we should apply to future work. If you are doing something that is vaguely like a first-person shooter, there are lots and lots of examples of that being done well, and of it being done poorly, and genres as a method of categorizing games make it easy to review what does and doesn't work when dealing with your mechanics of choice. While some would cynically call it "copying" when people start throwing new, popular mechanics into their own new game--such as the proliferation of roguelites or people copying Doom (2016)'s glory kill mechanics--the truth is that game developers are staring at design challenges, some they can't even put into words, and searching through modern understanding of gaming for any hint as to how they can overcome those challenges to create something new, worthy... and marketable. So when a developer sees that a mechanic, a genre, a business plan, or anything else has advantages, they try it out, only to learn first-hand some of the drawbacks that the new methods come with. And because we categorize games by other games like them, in the future we then come back and look over all the descendants of an original idea to see what should be done, and what should be avoided. The trick, after living surrounded by these categories, is then to go on and create a new game that isn't necessarily DEFINED by the categories, even if it will (of course) be DESCRIBED by them. To take all the lessons learned through all of gaming, and create art that uses all those lessons without being a dry, emotionless, proof-of-concept that does little but show that you DID learn how to make a game that fits within a genre... or perhaps that that shows you didn't.
This comment summarises everything i learnt about genre in my literature degree module in like 3 minutes. V good and important comment, hope it gets traction
Very well put! I think Enchanted Cave & Greedy Cave make good examples: they might seem like roguelites, but instead of having the awkward difficulty curve from the "naive" mix of permadeath and persistent progression, they double down on the latter, thus making both gel well instead. The "roguelike" is in service of "normal" progression, yet unlocking new starting floors and permanent weapons makes the difficulty curve fit a wider range of players. Speedrunners could challenge themselves, while grinders could play safely with relaxing stat increment build-ups. Progress at your own pace Bonus points for having a narrative that fits the roguelike elements(random dungeon, repeated death, gold everywhere)
THIS is what I browse the comments section for: meaningful and insightful observations and ideas from passionate people. Your comment was a beatiful read!
@@revimfadli4666 As a function of budget, yes. If you have little or no budget, like during the shareware era of PC software or when people do things like the GMTK game jam (among others, of course) then trying a unique combination and failing means nothing. If you are sinking tens of thousands of man-hours into a project, it's much harder to be cavalier about the possibility of failure. Genres are not a complete set of what's possible, but when you're looking for a very firm foundation for a very costly project, they are useful, exactly because they provide a comprehensive set of lessons learned.
One of my favourite genre mixes is Teardown. While the game does later introduce different level types, the main formula level is as follows: here are some items to steal from the map, the moment you take the first one, the 60-second clock starts ticking; take the required items and return to your escape vehicle. Until you take that first item, however, you have all the time in the world to plan out your route, modify the environment to make the navigation through the level easier, etc. This makes for a great mix of more puzzle-y, tactical gameplay in the beginning, as you think which order to take the items in, and action, as you go from building to building. What's particularly great about it is that planning skill can make up to an extent for a lack of platforming/driving skill, and vice versa. This vastly reduces the frustration if you fail the level by broadening your possibilities of increasing your chances of success; a player that can't "git" any more "gud" at a particular section of your route, perhaps you can think it through and make it easier, and a player that cannot think in that moment of any optimizations can practice the route until they get better, or until they do think of something. Truly a lovely game.
I think one of my favorite "blend" examples in recent memory is Ultrakill, which mashes fast-paced Quake-style FPS gameplay with the stylish comboing of Devil May Cry. It's crazy fun and unique while encouraging lots of experimentation and improvement
@@Breakaway-ic5gj That seems like kind of a "matter of degree" thing. If you take a mechanic from one genre and put it into another then you're still 'blending genres' IMO - just to a lesser extent.
IMO the thing about genres is that thinking in terms of them when talking about games can be very usefull. But especially when you want to make a game with a unique concept that hasn't been done before, the concept of "genre" might do more harm than good because it put's your mind in a box when what you probably actually want to do, is to think outside of that box. That is also why I think the "blend method" is the most interesting of the three. I feel like that is what happens when you think less in the lines of "I want to make a game that is a hybrid of multiple genres" and more like "I want to make a game with mechanics a, b, c etc. and coincidentally similar mechanics are getting used in completely different genres".
One thing that I feel forces players into a particular playstyle is Achievements. Dishonored is a good example since some Achievements that people are inclined to go for involve never getting caught, being completely passive, and only using the base set of abilities. This can sometimes lead to players really clinging onto their current playstyle since if they break the conditions for unlocking these Achievements half way into their playthrough then they might feel like they just wasted a lot of time playing the game in a very specific manner.
With achievements that favour a given playstyle, you basically have to choose between letting players get every achievement in a single run at the cost of privileging one particular playstyle, or you can make multiple achievements that each require different playstyles, but they then would require playing the game multiple times to get all of them.
Yeah, I felt the same way too, not only does the non-lethal approach provide a happier ending for the story, but it also grants achievements. In Deus Ex series, there's also another problem - rewards, non-lethal stealth takedowns grant much more EXP, than all other types of takedown. Which means you can unlock more skills, but most of those skills are unusable, when you're playing stealthily. So, it's either go guns blazing, but don't unlock your full potential or unlock your full pontential, but you can only use it in the last part of the game, when you're at max level.
yeah... I am the kind of player who feels like stealth is the "right" way to play dishonored... I've actually played the whole series on low chaos, an never even tried the alternative TBH. At least the second game improved the formula by giving stealth drop attacks, and the automatons that provide enemies you can kill while maintaining low chaos, and emily's power are slightly more easily applicable to both style. But it's still a case where you can't really solve the issue without breaking the promise of player freedom, you can only hope to provide mechanics that make each style enjoyable, preferably mechanics that provide a benefit for both playstyles.
i do like the achievements in the souls series. they are never particularly dificult, no lvl 1 runs, no "no upgrade", and no "speedruns" . even ds2, which has a couple of rings that require you to never die, and never use a bonfire(one for each), doesnt include them in their achievements. they do, however, have a couple of design decisions in ds 2 that made achievement hunting more troublesome than it was worth it, with the spells requiring either a ng+2 run(or 3, cant remember), or getting deep in the pvp covenants. in all honesty, alot of souls likes have pretty easy achievements to complete.
This reminds me of Assassin's Creed "synchronization". Which is basically little challenges that you might do in the mission of the game. Like, only using limited amount of items that's necessary in the mission, or not taking damage, etc. Which is actually interesting, in a way, you're not truly punished if you fail them. It just means that the mission that you did weren't done 100%. But it gave this feeling of proving that you can do it, even if there's no reward.
Prey: Mooncrash was a stellar mash-up of immersive sim and rogue-like mechanics. I love immersive sims, but like puzzle games, they tend to lose replay value once you figure out the ideal way to solve a problem or encounter. Mooncrash uses random enemies, environmental hazards, and loot to make sure that you are constantly forced to solve new problems with limited equipment, making each run exciting, challenging, and fresh.
You may enjoy Noita and Unexplored (Spelunky to a lesser degree), as problemsolving through complex interactions is important in those roguelikes. It's also the bread and butter of traditional roguelikes btw. If you're interested in that, Brogue (this one is good AND free!) and Golden Krone Hotel & Rift Wizard (but these have graphics!) are -relatively- beginner friendly roguelikes.
Metroidvanias are, themselves, a mashup between different genres. Oftentimes, it's a mix between action games, platformers, and collectathons, but you only really need two of those features to make it at least feel like a metroidvania.
If anything I think of it as platformer + puzzle, since it plays like a platformer and often tests your spacial awareness as though as the entire map is a puzzle. They're akin to platformer versions of zelda dungeons in a way
I liked the comment about the worry of the game "betraying" the player. One of my biggest disappointments in recent years was the re-release of Etrian Odyssey 2, part of a series of RPGs that mixes mapmaking and dungeon-crawling. In every other game in the series I've played, there are a ton of options for the style of party you want to build and the way you approach each boss fight. In the EO2 remake, every boss is the same: every 25% of the boss's health bar, it goes into a panic mode where you have to DPS a set amount in just a few turns or your party gets wrecked by whatever the boss' mechanic is. As someone who enjoys a turtley, buff-based party, I had to completely rebuild AND grind so my team could do massive DPS for each new boss and that really ticked me off.
Splitgate is a very clear “Halo meets Portal” mashup game, the gunplay and aesthetics is very much like Halo but the addition of being able to create and shoot through portals turns the entire experience on its head. You don’t just have to think about an arena shooter, you have to be thinking with portals.
I wouldn't really consider Splitgate to be a combination of genres. While it does use the portal gun from portal, there aren't any puzzle elements. It's still an arena shooter through and through.
the greatest crime in terms of untapped potential was us getting not one but two Halo Wars games and neither of them tried genre blending a first person shooter/rts co-op campaign where one player controls the spartan as an FPS and the other player is in command of the army as an RTS. For a franchise that has long embraced co-op since its original this was a huge missed opportunity. One the lore practically gift wraps to the design. A spartan is a super soldier, they are meant to be better then everyone else so it makes sense letting one player control and play that like it's a standard halo game, but then let another player control all the weaker marine grunts and vehicles.
I'd add a sub category of the first type: the "surprise" games as I'd like to call them. Aka games where the whole gimmick is that you never know what type of mechanic is gonna be next. It takes two is a great example, but there are even more wacky stuff like What The Golf (which is surprisingly a good well thought game even as the whole gimmick is to be as wtf as possible).
In a very different but related way, What Remains of Edith Finch came to mind. It's not really what one would call 'mechanics' I guess, but the way in which you interract with the story changes for each characters' story, showing their unique perspectives. One story is like a horror, another an RPG. This also keeps the gameplay interesting in a so-called 'Walking Simulator'.
Usually it's pretty much just playing with fast and/or ranged weapons (which most of the time places bows as dex-based weapons despite being more strength-dependent than almost all other weapons), and sometimes there's a steal, sneak, or trap disarm skill you can use once in a blue moon.
This.. Thief class in rpg are always a miss. So many games just default the thief to be the guy that just steals common items like gold/potions/etc, which is practically useless cause you'd probably accumulate a lot just playing the game normally. So most of the time, the thief class just felt like the little brother that your mom tells you to bring to the basketball game. And sometimes, the thief class gets worse. Despite dealing no damage, and brings no utility, some devs even love to butcher the class more, by giving the steal ability a HIGH CHANCE TO MISS. If there are gamedevs reading this, and you do this, let me have what you're smoking.
Always thought you should take a closer look at the game design of Crusader Kings. The premise of the series is that, unlike Paradox's other strategy games, you play as a succession of rulers instead of a single nation, and the games are thus meant to be a mixture of role-playing and strategy games, with random events helping to direct the flow of your characters' life. Events would offer you multiple choices that might affect your character's traits depending on which option you chose. But the issue with CK2 was that it was very easy to make the optimal choices for every event instead of choosing the option that would make the most sense from a roleplaying perspective. And since it was easy to gain or lose traits, characters didn't become very distinct from each other. Crusader Kings 3 essentially solved this problem by introducing a Stress system. Instead of a generic stress trait like the preceding game, CK3 has a stress meter which accumulates every time you make a decision that your character's personality disagrees with. If this meter reaches a certain level, you have a "mental break" and you gain a negative trait to "deal with the stress" (for example, alcoholism or a gambling addiction). You can reduce stress by taking breaks, prayer, spending time with friends and family, and generally just relaxing and having fun. Some traits (including both positive ones like hunter and negative ones like drunkard) even allow you to reduce stress through special means (e.g. going hunting, drowning your sorrows, etc.). So the game finally is able to blend the roleplaying and strategy gameplay in a cohesive way.
One of my favorite "hand off" style games is 13 sentinels: Aegis rim. The game is split into 3 parts and to progress in one area you need to occasionally switch to a different one so you cant just play all of the visual novel style story with the 13 protagonists without the real time strategic combat sections. Each of the 13 protagonists stories are also different genres, some are detective mystery solving campaigns while others are fast paced action style sequences. This game is such a gem but is so obscure.
Yes! I was waiting for this kind of comment to show up! I'm about 75% of the way through, and in my opinion, the genres combine to form the best gameplay loop I've ever experienced. Also, Wave 2-10 Seaside Vacation.
@@myst6673 I looked through most of the comments and didn't find anybody else mentioning aegis rim which really surprised me because the genres compliment each other perfectly
First one that comes to mind is Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain. During the stealth segments, the fact that you can "extract" enemy soldiers mid mission to work on your home base incentivises you to be good at the stealth and go nonelethal, since you can't extract soldiers if the base is on alert, and extracting good soldiers is crucial to getting your base to develop better equipment for you to use in the stealth missions.
Well yes but like with most of the game, it was very much so just half baked. The egregiously long time required to get them out from brig, the ops missions which had a basic rng factor for win or lose, especially for higher difficulty ones that took hrs to finish was just taking the piss. The base building elements and the soldiers stats and traits were also very meaningless in the grand scheme of things.
That wasn't really my experience, I don't even like base management and crafting trees in most games but I was checking in all the time in MGSV precisely because the stealth was feeding into it and it was feeding back into the stealth in the form of better gear, and the missions were hard enough for me that scraping enough resources to upgrade stuff really was making a difference.
@@bruhder5854 "The base building elements and the soldiers stats and traits were also very meaningless in the grand scheme of things." Of course they're going to be meaningless if you aren't using them -- Combat is only good for OuterOPs so I can understand the issue there, and sure, Medical is only good for improving the odds of rescuing injured soldiers, BUT: Without R&D, you don't get worthwhile weapons. Without Support, your aerial bombardments are terribly inaccurate. Without Intel... well, I can't explain exactly what they do, but if you're in the field without D-Dog and you've got a crappy Intel team, _you'll know._
@@CoralCopperHead that's not what I'd meant. I meant it was very shallow and did barely anything. Like what's the point of having a whole dedicated system like that when a simple rank system or a story progression system could already accomplish the same thing in a much much less convoluted faction. They used a system that had so much more potential but ended up with the most basic way of doing things. Base building for instance is a mess largely because of the design in which it is done. Separated bases with a long ass bridge which just takes too much time to move through unless you chopper it. With RnD the idea of hiding some specific weapons behind some specific people you needed was great but most of the weapons just went with the guns blazing approach in a stealth game that made no sense.
to me its zettai hero project. its a traditional rogue like(as in true old school enemies move when you do), but it has the best story mode of any rogue like. it doesnt focus on the punishment of the player for dying, but instead makes it part of the theme. also, it did hades long before even bastion was a thing. also, it embraced the rogue like aspects and gameplay, and made the exploration and equipment part of the reward, so you always felt like you could swap stuff and it would be worth it. it is a mashup in the sense it did a story mode that works closer to a traditional video game, with each dungeon being an episode of a tv series.
Invisible Inc comes to mind as an interesting genre mash-up. It combines a stealth game with a tactics game with a roguelite, which might seem like a lot, but it does a good job using each genre's traits to complement the other. So stealth games can famously involve a lot of waiting for enemies to move or react to your actions, but making it clear that the enemy is going to move when it's their turn, and you can trigger that turn whenever you're ready, means you spend a lot less time just staring at a wall waiting for an audio-visual cue that the enemy is where you need them to be. And tactics games can encourage save-scumming until you get the one perfect run of a level after you've played it enough times to know all the tricks it's going to throw at you in response to each tactical option. But the procedurally generated levels make that far less viable. Procedural generation also helps keep the stealth fresh, since each level sends you into a completely new building with a completely different floor plan, so you have to fill out your map, find your key objectives, develop a strategy to obtain them, and make your exit, all while still staying hidden from the guards who grow in number and awareness over time. It's certainly not a perfect title, but it's quite ambitious and achieves most of its ambitions with a lot of cleverness. I'd love to see Klei make a sequel some day and apply some lessons learned from the first game's experiments and what they've made since.
Sundered is a metroidvania with some procedural generation, and it blends both together really well - so much so that I didn't notice it until my third or fourth playthrough. It's definitely my favourite genre mashup, and tied for my #1 favourite game. Every big room is made of smaller ones, and those small rooms are the ones that change - so skill shrines, lore rooms, etc. never change their location, but the path to them will be slightly different. Each small room has a pretty big variety of designs too, and it's enough for you not to notice it's procedural until playing for a bit.
5:08 Another great example is Metal Gear Solid: Peace Walker. You recruit soldiers by knocking them out, whom are used to strengthen Mother Base. This lets you develop better gear, which help you in battle.
dont forget how it also helps the game mensage, and makes the player want to go for the non lethal aprouches as opposed to the kill them all, the earlier games tried to "punish" the player for.
The subtle genius of the few games like Mount & Blade and X4 is always striking to me. They're very robust strategy and economic sims, but from the perspective of a combat capable action game protagonist.
Perfect timing, I just started playing Persona 5 Strikers and loved how it mixes the usual JRPG style with Omega Force's Warriors-style series. Piqued my interest in this topic in time for this episode :D
I think that superior method to all of these, is to first come up with a well though out idea about what the game should be about. And then create game mechanics tailored to that idea independently of some pre-defined genres. It is more work, and tinkering to get it right, but I am sure better games will come out of it. Once you limit yourself to a genre, you usually limit yourself to technical approaches it uses, and you close many paths just by that. Not saying this is a way for game dev beginner, but in current competition it might have better chance to success than some milionth platformer, and you will learn much more from it too.
Although the Blend method is probably the most creative way to design a game, I particularly like tons of Hand-Off ideas. One thing that strikes me as very powerful is the concept of routine in games... For example, Danganronpa has basically 3 different playstyles with some minigames sprinkled in the mix. But because the game cycles through these playstyles in the same order, you start to anticipate what is coming next. Not only does it grabs your attention, but it also keeps the momentum of the narrative.
Henry Hatsworth and the Puzzling Adventure is my all-time hidden gem game, a DS action-platformer where all enemies killed have their soul thrown into a constantly moving match-3 puzzler on the bottom screen, where you can both stop their ascent and earn points for a super robot suit.
I have a lot of fun trying to mash up genres with the Blend method. I think the most successful one I've tried was mashing up a Rogue-like Dungeon with elements from racing games and Speedrun games. (Of course the name had to be Speedrungeon.) It was very fun finding abilities that not only allowed you to explore and interact with the dungeon, but also to make sure that every ability also allowed you to boost your speed. Such as stabbing a wall to launch yourself away from it, or launching a fireball to blast yourself like a rocket in the opposite direction. Really glad it all came together like that.
Racing + Roguelike actually sounds like a really good pairing that I'm surprised isn't more common. Tuning up your car between races in a tournament or something.
3:43 One good way to approach this problem is with music. Some games set the pace of a level letting you know what is expecting you to do with musical cues. It's not a genere changer, but how athletic levels in SMB3 and onwards have, well, athletic themes, is a good example. You know it will be a fast paced level a soon as you hear the first notes. And, of course, thematic levels are also a solution. The way puzzle solving levels in SMW are mostly prevalent in Haunted Mansions is another example. When you get into a level like that, you now there will be some hidden trick to clear the level.
I just finished Yoku's Island Express this week! A very interesting mashup with genres and ideas that I never thought possible. It's all a little bit silly, but that's part of the charm :)
Rain World is a phenomenal example of these "genre blends". It borrows elements from many, many genres (survival, platformer, metroidvania, roguelike, strategy, etc) and it works perfectly. With incredibly crafted AI-driven enemies that spawn in semi-random locations inside a handcrafted world where you have to scavenge for food to and maneuver around tricky terrain, it takes my personal favorite bits about each genre and mixes them brilliantly into one cohesive and incredible title. Not one genre sticks out above the rest aside from survival, which is what the whole game revolves around. More people need to take notice of this game and talk about it in videos such as this one, because more often than not I'm able to easily make connections between the topic at hand and Rain World. It's also just an incredible game in general, lol.
Hopefully the release of the Downpour expansion will provide an opportunity for people to reconsider the game outside of its initial reception as being too user-hostile (which is obviously the point of a game about being a prey animal). The downside is that it might just end up being considered the "Dark Souls of platformers".
I played Rain World for 10+ hours which is not much but it was enough for me to be frustrated and stop playing, it's a very good designed game except the UI-UX itself. At any point I'm not sure what is going on, there are too many different and hidden moves you can only find if you google them. Which is not a good way of communicating the game features to the player. Some people say it's like Dark Souls but it's actually not. In Dark Souls you know the every action YOU can take with each action having their separate key dedicated to them (almost) but don't know the actions your ENEMY can take, so that's where the learning and practicing comes in the effect, git gud after all. But in Rain World, you don't know the actions you will take too. Am I jumping up or forward, it's a 3-4 pixel change in the animation. So here comes the frustration
@@alperenelbasan7909 To be fair, the entire point of the game is to make you completely powerless and alone (aside from Iggy the overseer but he doesn’t count). Doesn’t work for everyone and it doesn’t have to. It’s unfortunate you were unable to enjoy it as much as I do.
My favorite genre mashup has to be Yoku's Island Express. Pinball metroidvania - there's no way it should work, but it does beautifully. A close second would be Lair of the Clockwork God. Point and click adventure game and 2d platformer, where almost each level has to be seen from both perspectives. The mashup is represented by two characters who are constantly bickering about their genre being the best, and the writing is top-notch.
I personally think that CrossCode blends genres really well. It takes a top-down zelda puzzeler and mashes it with bullet-hell-esque fights and RPG leveling and skill trees. Probably one of the best indie titles out there.
Wow, this is precisely the kind of video that I was in need of, as it just so happens to be that I decided to start working on a genre combo yesterday. Thanks!
One thing about combat in Persona 5 is that it almost feels rhythm based even though it’s technically not. It somewhat adds a genre for players to interact with once they get the feel for regular battles.
Too bad the game constantly yanks you out of the engaging dungeons to wander around a boring fascimile of the real world and form shallow 'relationships' with a party full of obnoxious teenagers that do nothing but remind us of how absolutely fucking _horrible_ high school was.
@@Motivatedragon the point isnt that they didnt want a teenage life sim alongside a dungeon crawler, instead the point is that they didnt like the teenage life sim
I once discussed Prototype mechanics with some random people and ended up realizing that it, Arkham series and Metal Gear(the one used as example was Phantom Pain) are the only action games that use twin stralth/combat system. Infamous, Spiderman, several others. They all had scripted stealth at best. There was no core "no alert/alert raised" gameplay difference. As for interesting combination, I always liked the idea of FPS/TPS and tactics/RTS mix. Even if they always fall flat by being hard to combine.
I love it when a game can play completely different depending on what path you take, especially in RPGs, instead of having a few different names and sprites with the same core gameplay, now every path is a completely different experience and a different journey you may take.
Geogre Lucas did it with Star Wars being SciFi and Fantasy for movies. As for videogames it's cool seening a Metroidvania being combined with Turn Based Battles like Monstsr Sanctuary for example.
@@FTChomp9980 I’d say there that you’re also mistaken. Due to how strictly Star Wars draws from The Hero With a Thousand Faces, I’d say that the fantastical elements are much closer in vision to mythology than fantasy
I find it useful to consider what gameplay loop (ie: primary, secondary etc.) a genre describes. “Rogue-like” in a broad definition, only refers to the secondary loop of runs, random generation, and permanent-death. It says nothing about the primary loop. Therefore, we get rogue like shooters, rogue like brawlers, rogue like strategy. The only things rogue like can’t share space with is other genre descriptors that describe the secondary loop. You can’t have rogue like Metroid-vania, because Metroid vania is a secondary loop descriptor. The only way to combine them is to shift between them, and play each one at a time. Similarly, first loop descriptors like shooter and strategy struggle to coexist as well. It can be done, but it requires clever game design to weave them into each other. Like mixing oil and water, you need an emulsifier to create a stable loop that fits two descriptors.
Interesting, but I think you can make mashing two secondary loops work, you just need to be aware of it and push one of them out to be a tertiary loop. For our roguelike + metroidvania example, you could have a roguelike secondary loop where you gain persistent abilities for the next runs, similar to Rogue Legacy. Or you could have a game where traversal abilities are hidden in each procedurally generated maze and unlock different parts of the maze to explore, which I can’t think of an example of.
This addresses my biggest issue with games that are made now. Back in the day you always had a mix of different mechanics and styles in your games. Nowadays, you get just one. Play the roguelike game, play the battle royale game, play the racing game. I want that variety back damnit! Give me an open world RPG, put puzzles in it, give me racing sections, give me intense shooting sections, give me visual novel style romance sections. Why does everything have to be so boring now? Edit: Like Nier Automata was amazing because of what it did with your camera in certain sections of the game, the majority of it is third-person over the shoulder, then you get a top down diablo style section, and in another bit of the game it's a 2.5d sidescroller. Honesty, if you don't want to put mechanics from different genres in your game at least mess around with the camera. When done right, it can make the game feel more dynamic and lead to a more memorable experience.
"Back in the day you always had a mix of different mechanics and styles in your games." And people hated them most of them time, to the point where phrases like "mandatory vehicle section" still strike dread in some people. Why? Because most of the time they were half-baked and poorly balanced. Not because developers were lazy or incompetent, but because inserting a new mechanic isn't as simple as just snapping your fingers. Making a solid mechanic requires a lot of time, i.e. money. And money is always limited, either because you're an indie on a tight budget, or because you're in a AAA studio where you need to justify every expense to the executives. And it's difficult to justify spending a lot of money on a mechanic that a lot of players might never even engage with. So these mechanics were made either with minimal effort and later on most devs decided that it was better to focus on making a few very good and fleshed out mechanics rather than a whole bunch of mediocre ones. Alternatively, you make a lot of individual mechanics that are simple on their own, but are designed to closely interact with each other, resulting in much more complex gameplay. "Give me an open world RPG, put puzzles in it, give me racing sections, give me intense shooting sections, give me visual novel style romance sections." I prefer to instead have one or two multi-purpose mechanics. One of the best examples of that was Puzzle Quest, where the match 3 mechanic was used for combat, capturing enemies, crafting items, and learning new spells, with each having slightly different rules. It was a brilliant example of how to get the absolute most out of a single idea.
you're the first person I've ever met to have enjoyed those jack of all trades mediocre packages of the mid-2000s that is by everyone else understood as a dull time in game history
@@dopaminecloud Speak for yourself, clearly there are others like me who enjoyed them. And what games are you referencing exactly? Because primarily what came to mind for me was Ratchet and Clank.
@@tomshraderd4915 I see what you're saying, but also remember that back in the day devs didn't really have a strong grasp on how to exactly make a game good. Think about control schemes for any 5 ps2 titles that aren't sequels, and you'll see that each game had starkly different controls. Where as nowadays we've figured out pretty much universal controls for a lot of games. I'd argue it was a matter of inexperience that made those games with multiple different mechanics pale in comparison to their single mechanic counterparts. Also, as stated in the video those multimechanic games often get compared to games that only focus on doing one or a few things, which isn't fair. Regardless, I'd like some more variety in my games. I just wanna see people try new things, and make interesting mixes because I'm tired of seeing souls likes, roguelike clones, and battle royale clones that offer nothing but the bare minimum.
I really like what you said about using genres that compliment each other as opposed to those that conflict with each other. I think a lot of people run into problems where they add mechanics from some genre that don't really fit. RPG elements are a great example of this. People think they're a good way for your player to feel a sense of progress, but it just simply doesn't make sense in every context.
Damn, just seeing Lumines featured ANYWHERE makes me so nostalgic. I've spent thousands of hours on that game, literally breaking TWO PSPs in the process (extra sad since one was jailbroken for playing old PS1 games). Anyway, nice to see someone remembering that game still. :)
A brilliant game! My wife didn't grow up playing games like I did and doesn't consider herself a gamer, but her Lumines skill far eclipses mine. I love games that possess such appeal beyond the usual audience without resorting to sleazy F2P micro-transaction-based or ad-based design.
Here is an idea for a future video. I've always wondered about the importance of cutscenes in video games and why they probably should matter. It's rare I see anyone do a talk or video on this subject.
I just happened to have a discussion about this earlier today. I argued that where Darkest Dungeon looks a lot like some rogue-like (or rogue-lite) game, it actually shares a lot with management games, enrolled adventurers being the primary resource.
I always thought DD was basically XCOM with a different aesthetic, and with mission performance feeding back much more strongly into the strategy layer.
*Inscription:* The mix of a card game, a roguelite, and an escape room was such an amazing design, my only critique is that there isn't MORE of it! *Darkest Dungeon:* Like X-Com, turn-based combat in the dungeons with base upkeep+unit management at the hamlet. I hope DD2 ends up as good by the time it leaves early access. *Rain World:* Metroidvania + simulator, absolutely incredible! *Lob Corp:* Visual novel + management sim + roguelite, makes for a nice narrative-reward structure when you make it further than you did last run. *Noita:* Roguelite + sandbox, what a bonkers concept! Though I think the ultimate one would have to be *Terraria,* the original great sandbox RPG.
Hand off, if made well, also has the advantage of having each genre play into the next. Persona 5’s visual novel segments give boosts to the RPG segments, and a boss sometimes gates the progress of each relationship. This can also be done in an upgrade system too! For instance, one RPG hands off to an upgrade/inventory system that’s puzzle like. To get the best boosts or to grab all you can, you have to use your head a bit.
Your content is criminally underrated kudos to the in depth and spontaneous quality you always put into your videos... wish more developers thought about this Combination of genres...
Some of my favorites: The original Sonic the Hedgehog games on the Genesis/Mega Drive are something of a mashup between Super Mario Bros.-style momentum-based platformers, pinball, and vert skateboarding (specifically with the integration of half-pipes and quarter-pipes into the level geometry). Many of the 'Special Stages' also resemble racing games. Buck Up And Drive! is a fighting/racing hybrid. The Super Smash Bros. games are fighting/platforming hybrids. SEUM: Speedrunners from Hell is like Super Meat Boy meets Quake. Snakeybus is the lovechild of Crazi Taxi and Snake. Loot River adds Tetris-style block fitting with Soulslike combat. Race the Sun is a racing/roguelike. Metroidvanias in general are essentially a blend of the platforming and adventure genres.
Unsure how that's a counterpoint. Yeah, not every stage in Sonic 1 had those vert skateboarding elements. However, most do. Plus, the games after Sonic 1 are more consistent in that regard. Besides, the ability to become a ball, and to ricochet off of enemies and items, is integrated into Sonic's moveset, so you can still enjoy some mild genre blending even in Labyrinth Zone.
REALLY surprised that you didn't bring up Sanctum, especially sanctum 2. That is the most quintessential example of blending genres. Tower defense + FPS turns out to be a really fun combination
Your video came at the perfect time! My friend and I were thinkng about a truly jawdropping and original game we could create, and eventually came to the thought of combining genres to create something different and then expanding from there. Not even 1 hour later and lo and behold, I see your video! Thanks a million, this was truly helpful.
i really love how these videos end up being about stuff i didn't even know i needed also, the fact that anecdotes from working on Untitled magnet game, gives the video an extra layer of insight
I like that a lot of the advice you give in these videos is pragmatic (such as using marketing and in-game messages to mitigate the problems of the playstyle method). I don't think you ever really push that the most elegant and artistic way of dealing with a design challenge is the ONLY way
I work at a game co-dev studio that mainly works on fps games and what we've noticed is a hugeeee embrace of RPG mechanics in popular shooters. Weapon and character progression models in RPGs are amazing at retention so shooters are taking their own approach. Shooters are also using the language of "tank", "damage", and "support" more and more and actually creating content that allows players to play that way because it appeals to a wider audience. Because they're doing this, it allows designers like me to draw on those same values and assert a focus on the narrative and characterization that RPGs use. On the other hand, I had one client try to merge the genres, card game + multiplayer RPG. It did not work out because instead of carving a new genre as they'd planned, both genres fought for meta-focus and as a result, their retention was very low.
The thing in method 1 about clearly showing what is going to happen in the stage reminds me of Portal. Every test chamber had a little sign about what was going to be in the puzzle of the room. While not exactly the same as what was being talked about in the video, I think how it conveys the information is really clear and easy to understand which could be applied to conveying what skill sets a level would need.
Agreed. Derek Yu's book is a fantastic read, very well written, and full of inspiring ideas about game design. (I got a lot of useful ideas about procedural level generation from it).
"Untitled Magnet Game" got a title while I wasn't looking...a year ago! Time flies when you're doing things and only occasionally get notified of GMTK vids! Much love.
There's a definite special place in my heart for Mega Mash, a game on Nitrome! It was a platformer, where different areas of the level were all from different games and if you entered one, suddenly you were a spaceship rather than a demolition expert. It was great.
Im glad you mentioned the play styles and how players will pick one and stick to it instead of being more fluid. I definitely did this with dishonored but it really helped with the replay ability of it. I did also find myself being sneaky on my "mayhem" playthroughs, but I did switch to out of it if I got detected. I actually told myself, this is a no re-load playthrough, instead of a mayhem one. That way my brain knows to just keep playing the game, instead of re loading a save.
Natural selection 2. Enough said. 😅 Seriously though, in it's prime, that game was amazing. Top down rts combined with a first person shooter/biter. Both games generally revolve around combat/tactics, so when combined they created something fairly special.
Sakuna: Of Rice and Ruin is probably the most brilliantly designed game I’ve ever played. One half combat platformer, one half rice farming simulator, and they stitched the two halves together flawlessly. Also, I’m surprised you never mentioned NieR: Automata.
I SAW THAT THUMPER CLIP MARK, YOU CAN'T HIDE IT FROM US. In all seriousness, that game is probably my favorite take on non-traditional rhythm gaming, as it is a rhythm game without proper music. This, combined with the need for quick reactions and a punishive damage system made me love Thumper and play it through three more times even after finishing all it had to offer. For anyone that doesn't know the game, please search up a trailer and give it a go. The devs describe its gameplay as "rhythmic violence", and I can't think of a better way to sell the brutality of it.
I think the game Dead Cells did the "blend" method very well, even though you said Metroidvanias and Roguelikes don't really mix. It manages to be extremely fun exploring the random levels and world while also having great combat and upgrades.
Well that's subjective. I played the game upto 2 bc with a total of maybe 30 runs and left it there because a lot of the design decisions I just didn't agree with ended up getting in the way. Take the idea of skill based combat where reaction time is key and learning those skills will be rewarded constantly but then also add the variable of the weapons, tools, etc having a major impact on how well you perform and then add another variable of lvling up which scales with areas. If you decide to take 2 lv 4 weapons because you want to or because they synergize well, they won't be able to perform well at all in an area with lv 7 enemies. The game is at that point pushing you to change your equipment to be closer or equal to the enemies you're facing but at the same time your loot equipment is randomized and expanding as you unlock more stuff. Randomized means it may not synergize well with your playstyle, build, preferences and ends up limiting your choices. Unlocking so many means diluted pool and you've a much lower odd of acquiring a weapon you'd want to have for your build, playstyle or preference and it also means that you'll need to spend more time using stuff you don't enjoy. Matter of preference I understand but I really grew to severely dislike that design loop the more I played. Imo if the game had a much lower pool of equipment and the equipment ability system was more fluid with choices to build upon a foundation instead of replacing it with a different one over the course of a run, it'd be better.
Does Dead Cells use block-based level generation(like Spelunky and A Robot Named Fight!)? Because that combines the best of both handcrafting and procedural generation
I am currently playing through Cyberpunk, and it actually feels like it did such a good job at Method 2. Some quests do have a stealth incentive, but are not required. A majority don't care whether you are stealthy or not, so I always feel more comfortable doing hack or takedown stealth and not feel bad if I just swap to combat because someone finally spotted me. And swapping back is possible though not perfect because enemies never seem to get out of the "alert" phase. It actually feels like there is a lot of value in specing into different or multiple things, and not specing into something doesn't leave you completely unable to use it. ie stealth or fist fighting
A bad version of it, at least at the end is VtM:Bloodlines. You can stealth or social through pretty much the whole game avoiding combat, then you hit the endgame and it is essentially a boss rush and may find yourself under-powered for it.
a game i recently discovered with my friends is Carrier Command 2 at first, it looks like an interesting take on the RTS genre, where youre actually physically on the battlefield onboard the aircraft carrier, from which all units are started, you can freely walk around it even! but today we noticed, its also a rogue like, cause every run has a newly generated map. honestly, it feels like a combo of RTS, First person Simulation, Logistics managment AND roguelike. best to play as a group, it really shines when you coordinate as a group, when one gives you bearings, enemy movement, distance and water curent diection for a torpedo shot and you quickly calculate which bearing you have to fire in and with what delay you have to activate the sonar guidance on the torpedo or when one player marks enemies over the gimble camera of a scouting specialised plane and the other takes them out with the attack chopper while the third makes sure the carrier stays out of range of retaliation while the 4th starts to deploy the amphibious ground troups.
Respecs in games are a great way to either fix your mistakes or even try a different play style. My current computer game that I play is called Stolen Realm and since each character can pick from any of the power trees, they have unlimited respecs (each costing a small fee that you can easily get from a quest) and let's you test out different build as much as you want.
Crypt of the Necrodancer accidentally made it one of the hardest roguelikes to have ever been created. Roguelikes are known for their randomness and difficulty with each run bringing different tools that vary greatly in strength. Rhythm games push players to play each song to perfection without missing a single beat or note. This combination makes the random difficulty in items combined with severe punishments for playing off rhythm or skipping beats (something cemented even further with characters that will kill you for failing to play off beat) makes Necrodancer one of the hardest roguelikes to have ever been made, but I think that's a good thing. It stands out as this extremely quirky genre mix that is also one of the hardest games to complete and stands the test of time by not trying to follow conventional game design.
Racing game, for me, is one that's the hardest to figure out a genre mix. Since racing itself comes with a wide variety of tracks and cars, each race could feel like a different game mode, different world, and even characters. F1 2021 had a great idea of incorporating a story into a game as one way to make the players immerse into the world of F1. Gran Turismo has a cool concept of having GT Cafe where you got to know the cars you meet and drive, with dialogues feels like you're playing an RPG, which disappointingly was enforced as the main career system instead of a fun talk and round. I and my brother talked bout this before, that racing genre hasn't been the most wanted of all time as it was back in...2005 (get it?), mentioning that the lack of diversity of the genre doomed itself to obsoletion. Since then, I kept a thought: A light-novel-inspired story playing along with racing? As barebone as it is, I believed Most Wanted 2005 has a decent storyline, F1 2022 (well, tried to) incorporate story into gameplay as a sort of storytelling, yet both has yet to reach its utmost potential. Forza Horizon 1 left quite an ending as open as its world, FH5's story made NFS 2015 looks like edible gold, NFS Unbound... it did its best. This is more or less just a rant on how I feel bout mixing genre and racing genre in general. I've got a handful of tales on cars and games to talk about, and I'd love to see a new page on racing games, than just how the game plays, or how the story goes.
Def jam kinda does that already but man I'd really hate to see a more stats heavy Pokémon like fighting game. I hate the idea of stats, elements (fire, water, wind, etc) or something like that having an impact on the match instead of it being just the raw skills of the players.
This. I absolutely hate pokemon game design despite the pfp but i would love a pokemon fighting/strategy game hybrid. Pokken was just too much tekken with skins, it had potential but it wasn't fleshed out. I'm talking about a story, an entire region, catching with pokeballs, levelling up, learning moves and swapping builds, team battle of course, type advantage... But the battle actually plays out in a fighting game arena and you can always use your personal skill to overcome the enemy strategy. You would have a smaller set of fighting pokemon that gets bigger with time and sequels, perhaps with some copy pasted moves to make it easier for the devs, and then the others as supports that grant you actual pokemon moves and status effects or change your type advantage, maybe even add in a turn based attack between the rounds. This is one of the only ways i could get into the franchise. If pokken 2 ever gets done it needs to have at least a couple of these things.
Have you ever played the pokemon rumble series? I think that combat could be upgraded a bit and ported into a mainline game. Make combat top-down and real-time, give each of the 4 face buttons a move, have cooldowns/PP resource management; can still keep the RPG stata behind it but adds a huge element of player skill.
Spelunky will always be my favorite in this context, but I'm glad there was some Elden Ring footage in the second section because I really appreciate just how well that game (and the franchise in general) manages to balance between action and RPG, for two main reasons: 1. The slow pace makes it more manageable for someone without the lightning-fast reflexes required for many action games, but it also makes the character progression more immediate: when a single hit can be so decisive you'll quickly notice a big difference when putting just a few points in different stats, compared to many turn-based RPGs in which your may not realize the pros and cons of your build until you've gone through hundreds of battles across dozens of dungeons. 2. The balance of stats, gear, abilities and spells encourages you to play the way you prefer. If you like fast-paced action you can put all your points in damage and blast through the game, but you'll be up close with every enemy and you won't be able to use much armor or other damage mitigation tricks, so just one or two mistimed inputs can mean swift death. On the other hand, if you play defensively and carefully you'll be able to use many ranged items and offensive and defensive spells to avoid damage, but you'll have to think up different strategies and put everything you've found while exploring to good use. In short, the axe-swinging barbarian player will have a tense, fast-paced game experience while the cunning mage player will have to play at the pace a cunning mage would, taking their time to explore and experiment to "solve" each encounter.
The game that comes to my mind that amazingly blends genres is Deadcells. When recommending to a friend, u would say its a blend of metroidvania + rougelite. Cause that's what it is. People love metroidvania, and rougelikes are pinnacle of minute to minute and emergent fun. Why wouldn't they like Deadcells. But as evident in the video these genres are incompatible. That's where the catch comes in. See, the game is actually a Hand-Off style action platformer. Where both the genres contribute to the mix, ur weapons and the map is a rougelike system but enemy types and platforming is dictated by the metroidvania angle. U can't access all the areas and the whole area map when u begin the game, meaning it's enticing u with that "come back here later" play. But u can still beat it without even investing into the metroidvania aspect. Making the game into just a rougelike with action rich gameplay. But!!!! But. The game is a ROUGELITE. Where u can unlock skins and weapons, permanently upgrade ur weapon bonuses and health portions. U unlock abilities that work through out the game and reveal new areas. METROIDVANIA. U can do all this at ur own pace. Each ability is unique and all the areas are very distinguishable. And, I would say the lvl map always follow some pattern structure making it more of a metroidvania branching paths than rougelike. It keeps the metroidvania lvls and map very distinguished from its rougelite combat and progress but finds that perfect blend of aspects. And it also supports 3 types of game play, adding another level of complexity to this spice mix. Honestly, it is a mad man's ordeal to even attempt developing this. Hats of to the devs.
A great example that has been woefully underlooked is an XBOX game called Phantom Dust. It is both a 3rd person arena fighter and... a card game. You might hear Card Game and turn your brain off, but it's not like that at all. The skill system and level design revolved around "drawing" skills from a "deck" location on your map, and using the environment to physically assault your opponent with said skills. Additionally, you have the whole deck building and card collecting aspect. It's not only an underappreciated gem, but it's an excellent example of just how radically you can take this approach, and that people have been doing it long before Nuclear Throne or Dark Souls left a permanent mark on the industry.
Some of my favorite games are bizarre genre mash-ups that logically shouldn't make sense. Pyre is a part sports, part visual novel. Haven is part romantic visual novel part rollerblading RPG. NieR:Replicant and Automata are part RPG, part hack-n-slash and part bullet hell. Battle Chef Brigade was already mentioned for how crazy its mash-up is. Tower of Time is part dungeon crawler and part RTS combat. And of course anything by Daniel Mullins (Pony Island, The Hex, Inscryption) will smash genres, the fourth wall and your brain.
I did this with my game, its a hack and slash on the base level, but you can play with stealth, or you can simply just run past all the enemies and play the objective. In my opinion, mixing game genres is easier than sticking to one
Easier and messier. The core design ends up falling flat often as the player just ends up sticking to the one thing that works and bulldozes through without delving too deep in the mechanics.
Would love to see an episode about Stray. Maybe about its unique exploration (and storytelling) as a cat, or its tendency to give mechanics and take them away.
My favourite "hand-off" genre-combining game is Mount and Blade. Similar to what you said, it jumps between genres of gameplay but serves the same goals. As the game is open to modding, the goals and gameplay can both be expanded and improved. The goals may be world domination, marrying a character/making a harem, following quest lines with story, build your customized army, etc. The gameplay genres are: third/first person action RPG, real time strategy (commanding your soldiers fighting alongside you), trading and economy simulation, relationship and politics simulation, arranging equipment and skill points for companions and customised soldiers, etc. As the game is also open to cheating and "tweaking" (changing few stuffs, especially numbers in the game rules) by casual players, the game at least give the player a tool to skip the part(s) the player doesn't like.
![Noob To Max With DRAGON REWORK In Blox Fruits [FULL MOVIE]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LnBMOinoOvA/mqdefault.jpg)
My experience working on Untitled Magnet Game directly inspired this episode - I'm back to working on the game, so Developing should return in the near future!
yo this was one of your best videos in awhile man this has insane production value
You should add a beam that affects the player but not the magnet and make you let go of the magnet
How are you just not going to mention Nier Automata!?!
@@Freg-ld2lo well it’s not pride month anymore, is it!
@@GMTK put it back 🔫
You know it’s a GMTK video when it opens with spelunky
It's Spelunky's fault for being so good
or when the thumbnail is persona 5
One time I commented on an old GMTK video about how each one consists of him saying "interesting" in his curt accented fashion, and mentioning Spelunky.
He then replied with a comment saying "Derek Yu is my spirit animal."
Spelunky is so iconic it made the roguelite systems really popular, which people then paired with various genres. The Binding of Isaac is a shoot them up, Hades is a beat them up, Enter the Gungeon is a twin stick shooter, Crypt of the Necrodancer is a rythm game, Slay the Spire is a card game...
Having dinner with Mark probably goes like this:
"You know, that's the great thing about Spelunky..." *goes on a ten minute ramble*
"Umm, yeah, Mark, that's really interesting, but could you pass the salt now, please?"
I feel like a major factor in combining genres is that there are different kinds of genres. For example, roguelike, simulator, and mmo describe how a game is designed. Platformer, turn based, or fps describe a input methods. Platformer roguelike works as it describes how a game is designed and how it plays. Meanwhile, saying "roguelike sim" or "turn based fps" don't work as well since you have genres that compete for the design/input genres. Not to say these can't exist, but it would have to be done *very* carefully to work.
Superhot gives the same sorta feel as a turn based fps i reckon
@@themanwithaplan1391 real time with pause more like
turn based is very different as it completely erases finesse and just has you slot your actions in line with everyone else
@@themanwithaplan1391 valkyria chronicles is like turn based TPS. I'd also argue hogs of war could fit in for something like that too :P
I'd say the Prey DLC (Mooncrash) is actually a very good roguelike sim, thus proving that yes, it can be done
@@cassou124 they meant actual simulators not immersive sims
My favorite "blended" genre mashup would be the survival city builder. Starting with games like Banished but polished with games like Frostpunk. It gives the normally pedestrian city building genre some much needed teeth while still preserving, to an extent. the complexity of a city builder.
I honestly found Frostpunk wayyyy too stressful to play. City Builders are apready rather complex to first pick up, but when you pair that with the punishment for not playing accurately, it really becomes a nightmare to play. Maybe that's just me, but the blend here makes for an unpenetrably tough game.
@@Ryan-ey3qk That is the niche Frostpunk appeals to: a constant state of stress and uncertainty where a small mistake snowballs into defeat. It's not just making a big city, it's planning to see the next day or hour, which is what made it and it's story so memorable.
When all the chips are down, when the deck is inherently stacked against you, what would you do?
@@ruffethereal1904 i knoww and I honestly really wanted to get into it. I'd consider myself very open ro trying these kinds of stressful games, but this game stumped me. Frostpunk is my goddamn Everest.
@@Ryan-ey3qk Yeah, it's one of those games where failure and restarting is the point. The irony being, of course, in that you're supposed to be the last hope of humanity, hahaha.
Those kinds of games appeal to a certain type of person that don't mind throwing themselves against the base of a mountain, climbing over their previous corpses.
rimworld is kinda similar to what you would want. For me it would be something like Far Cry, you have shooting aspect and farming stuffs but you can also build the community. Only thing lacking in Far Cry for me would be the real sandbox stuffs, like don't have long linier progression and build my own houses. My dream survival builders would be you started at some unknown place, you rescue survivors, you help them get past the initial state and then they'll help you with some chores like gather basic stuffs for you from time to time or prepared bandages for you, then the community progress as you build more houses or if possible you can have basic plan and have NPC slowly build for you while you're adventuring outside. It's quite a complicate thing to work on but it's possible.
The "blend" method has been blowing my mind over the past few years. It's always astonishing how many creative minds there are out in the gaming industry and this feels like one of the best ways to flex those muscles.
I recently wondered if it'd be feasible to blend Minecraft, Shenzhen I/O, and Factorio. You'd live in a Minecraft-like sandbox world and progress by building machines that automate production tasks, however those machines would need to be programmed. It'd be a little bit of a niche game, but still, I like the idea.
@@ThePC007 Well you can find some minecraft modpacks that are pretty automation-heavy, like skyfactory, industrial craft, or enigmatica. The biggest reason why people don't usually include everything is lag when playing minecraft, so that's why you don't load too many mods at the same time.
@@ThePC007 There's always next GMTK Game Jam 😉
@@taketheleep I don't think that game lends itself well to a game jam. For one, it's a pretty difficult concept to implement from a technical standpoint, and for two, most people play game jam games for only a few minutes before moving to the next one, so blending three genres, all of which require a considerable time investment to play properly just won't be received very well.
@@iteragami5078 Yeah, the lag is unbearable. :/ Also, chunk loading and unloading kinda ruins factory building. I've been thinking about a way to pre-simulate chunks before unloading them such that when they are loaded again, they appear as if they've never been unloaded, however, things get somewhat complicated when you consider the fact that multiple chunks can interact with each other.
I think the method that pushes the industry forward is the "blend" method, I've seen lots of great indie subgenres come out of it sucah as idle games, auto battler, roguelike, survivor, etc. Survivor-type games, like vampire survivor, are actually just top-down shooters with a focus on risk and progression. It's basically felt like a modern Crimsonland, but it gives a new fresh outlook on the genre. Whenever there is a new subgenre to be explored it always leads up to great new game mechanics.
In matthewmattosis' words, it's the method that will most often lead to games that leave a penny instead of just taking some.
"Whenever there is a new subgenre to be explored it always leads up to great new game mechanics."
Brave of you to say that in the same paragraph that you mentioned idle "games" and auto-battle "games."
@@CoralCopperHead autobattlers still have more interesting choices than idles though
Though in the boardgaming world, the "blend" method can often get dismissed as "nothing new"
@@CoralCopperHead autobattlers aren't like idles at all. they're like a boardgame where you build something and everything gives you a number of victory points at the end. the building part *is* the game. just because you're not pressing the attack button doesn't mean you aren't playing.
there are strategy/citybuilder games where you don't necessarily control individual units. by your standards, if one could call them that, games like settlers 2 and dungeon keeper would be idle games.
My favorite combination of genres is eating food while watching GMTK. Sure each genre can be great on its own, but learning these great game design tips while stuffing your face with Lo Mien is the bee’s knees!
Combined with reading the comments... thanks for the new recipe idea 😉
Just had dinner to this (and some other videos, since making dinner takes more time than this video).
Highly agreed
I just watched and ate food lol
I hope more developers innovate on this new game
Nier: Automata (in fact a lot of Yoko Taro's games) constantly blends space invaders-esque play with action JRPG with platforming with shooter-puzzles (I dunno how to describe them) and it's so damn seamless. I typically found genres harder than others, but it was such a creative way to vary gameplay.
My first time playing Automata the genre flipping was super weird to me. Now though? It's probably my favorite game, and I love the little "mini games" thrown in there
Its predecessor was a big fan of this, too. Action jRPG at its base, but played with things like platformers, PS1 survival horror, isometric dungeon crawlers, and text adventures. I'd consider it a staple of the Nier series, myself.
Doesn't Nier have elements of bullet hell? Just like games like Returnal or Enter the Gungeon where you constantly have to dodge enemy projectiles.
@@Nickulator It does! Its regular gameplay has a lot of projectile-based attacks in various patterns, some of which can be destroyed by attacks and some that absolutely have to be dodged
@@cassou124 Yea I thought as much. So it blends even more genres together.
Pyre is absolutely my favorite example of genre-blending. It combined the storytelling aspects of visual novels with the high-octane gameplay of a sports game. It's a shame that so many people haven't gotten to experience it!
Pyre is Supergiant's best game, I said it.
Supergiant is good at the genre-blening. I loved Transistors weird pause enabled turn-based realtime hack'n slash gameplay.
Yesss so true, pyre was such a wild concept that it's kind of a miracle that it was done so well on the first try
It's been on my list for a while...
@@nemossangeomatrix6841 imo that's not genre blending, that's an entirely new innovation
I was initially on the fence with Sundered. Like Chasm, it's a Metroidvania with procedural level generation. You will always know the general direction you need to go, but never the exact route. And some of the reviews panned the swarm mechanic, where a horde of enemies would randomly start to chase you. But I ended up loving that particular mechanic. Even otherwise trivial platforming becomes thrilling when you have a half a dozen snipers aiming at you, and the randomized map meant that you had to think on your feet. And of course, the ageless choice between fight or flight.
Yeah Sundered really impressed me with that mechanic and I'm surprised no-one else copied it.
I didn't really like sundered, but mostly for other reasons. I didn't think the random generation added all that much to the game, but it wasn't really a drawback either. It was mostly the combat and nearly complete lack of juice, plus the fact that it's so easy to break that you barely need to play half the game. Oh, and the grinding
@@hiiistrex2838 yeah, it sucked in the combat department too, Lotus Games just seem to suck at finding that middle ground between being challenging demands and obvious time-padding grind fests.
What i hated the most about sundered is that there isn't a dedicated interact button. I was running away trying to lure the swarm into a room where there's more space to fight and i accidentally corrupted one of my special abilities. It was at that point that i deleted the game instantly. Such beautiful art wasted on a game that just does not work.
@@botondkunos1774 I get what you mean, something similar with Pyre happened to me with its the hitboxes having moments where it does register contact or mechanics that straight up don't work when they're supposed to. When mechanics aren't polished and they lift weight in the core gameplay/game-feel it's impossible to not feel the mood die.
I actually want to go back to the very start, where Mark points out that genres are post hoc categorization--but then, we spend the rest of the video talking about them as though the genres themselves are... basically, a standard that game developers have to measure up to, to such a degree that you then have to justify combining different genres (to the public, or to a publisher) even if they are obviously compatible. An easy example of this is Portal, or rather, Narbacular Drop, the indie game that paved the way for Portal. First-person puzzle games existed before that, but people couldn't think of anything particular great to do with a first-person camera except shoot people or provide immersion in a role-playing or adventure game. Narbacular Drop, and Portal after it, provided a fascinating window into using the first person camera as a constraint in a puzzle game, and then breaking that constraint in the most mind-bending ways, and there are several modern 3D puzzle games that doubtless would not have been finished or funded without that kind of proof that a novel set of mechanics was worth considering a "genre". Many genres nowadays--especially Roguelikes and Rogue-lites--are nearly arbitrary collections of mechanics, and it's worth considering that we will discover new combinations and therefore new "genres" as we go along.
That said, what genres do for us is provide lessons that we should apply to future work. If you are doing something that is vaguely like a first-person shooter, there are lots and lots of examples of that being done well, and of it being done poorly, and genres as a method of categorizing games make it easy to review what does and doesn't work when dealing with your mechanics of choice. While some would cynically call it "copying" when people start throwing new, popular mechanics into their own new game--such as the proliferation of roguelites or people copying Doom (2016)'s glory kill mechanics--the truth is that game developers are staring at design challenges, some they can't even put into words, and searching through modern understanding of gaming for any hint as to how they can overcome those challenges to create something new, worthy... and marketable. So when a developer sees that a mechanic, a genre, a business plan, or anything else has advantages, they try it out, only to learn first-hand some of the drawbacks that the new methods come with. And because we categorize games by other games like them, in the future we then come back and look over all the descendants of an original idea to see what should be done, and what should be avoided.
The trick, after living surrounded by these categories, is then to go on and create a new game that isn't necessarily DEFINED by the categories, even if it will (of course) be DESCRIBED by them. To take all the lessons learned through all of gaming, and create art that uses all those lessons without being a dry, emotionless, proof-of-concept that does little but show that you DID learn how to make a game that fits within a genre... or perhaps that that shows you didn't.
This comment summarises everything i learnt about genre in my literature degree module in like 3 minutes. V good and important comment, hope it gets traction
Very well put!
I think Enchanted Cave & Greedy Cave make good examples: they might seem like roguelites, but instead of having the awkward difficulty curve from the "naive" mix of permadeath and persistent progression, they double down on the latter, thus making both gel well instead. The "roguelike" is in service of "normal" progression, yet unlocking new starting floors and permanent weapons makes the difficulty curve fit a wider range of players. Speedrunners could challenge themselves, while grinders could play safely with relaxing stat increment build-ups. Progress at your own pace
Bonus points for having a narrative that fits the roguelike elements(random dungeon, repeated death, gold everywhere)
THIS is what I browse the comments section for: meaningful and insightful observations and ideas from passionate people. Your comment was a beatiful read!
Tbf, even without the notion of genres, you might still need to justify combining stuff, including via compatibility
@@revimfadli4666 As a function of budget, yes. If you have little or no budget, like during the shareware era of PC software or when people do things like the GMTK game jam (among others, of course) then trying a unique combination and failing means nothing. If you are sinking tens of thousands of man-hours into a project, it's much harder to be cavalier about the possibility of failure.
Genres are not a complete set of what's possible, but when you're looking for a very firm foundation for a very costly project, they are useful, exactly because they provide a comprehensive set of lessons learned.
One of my favourite genre mixes is Teardown.
While the game does later introduce different level types, the main formula level is as follows: here are some items to steal from the map, the moment you take the first one, the 60-second clock starts ticking; take the required items and return to your escape vehicle. Until you take that first item, however, you have all the time in the world to plan out your route, modify the environment to make the navigation through the level easier, etc.
This makes for a great mix of more puzzle-y, tactical gameplay in the beginning, as you think which order to take the items in, and action, as you go from building to building. What's particularly great about it is that planning skill can make up to an extent for a lack of platforming/driving skill, and vice versa. This vastly reduces the frustration if you fail the level by broadening your possibilities of increasing your chances of success; a player that can't "git" any more "gud" at a particular section of your route, perhaps you can think it through and make it easier, and a player that cannot think in that moment of any optimizations can practice the route until they get better, or until they do think of something.
Truly a lovely game.
I think one of my favorite "blend" examples in recent memory is Ultrakill, which mashes fast-paced Quake-style FPS gameplay with the stylish comboing of Devil May Cry. It's crazy fun and unique while encouraging lots of experimentation and improvement
It also blends the classic genres of crack and methamphetamine
Is that really blending genres though, that seems more like a new mechanic added in the fps gameplay
@@Breakaway-ic5gj That seems like kind of a "matter of degree" thing. If you take a mechanic from one genre and put it into another then you're still 'blending genres' IMO - just to a lesser extent.
Also the secret levels in ultrakill that are always different genres like puzzles, fishing, dating sim, horror and others
IMO the thing about genres is that thinking in terms of them when talking about games can be very usefull. But especially when you want to make a game with a unique concept that hasn't been done before, the concept of "genre" might do more harm than good because it put's your mind in a box when what you probably actually want to do, is to think outside of that box.
That is also why I think the "blend method" is the most interesting of the three. I feel like that is what happens when you think less in the lines of "I want to make a game that is a hybrid of multiple genres" and more like "I want to make a game with mechanics a, b, c etc. and coincidentally similar mechanics are getting used in completely different genres".
One thing that I feel forces players into a particular playstyle is Achievements. Dishonored is a good example since some Achievements that people are inclined to go for involve never getting caught, being completely passive, and only using the base set of abilities. This can sometimes lead to players really clinging onto their current playstyle since if they break the conditions for unlocking these Achievements half way into their playthrough then they might feel like they just wasted a lot of time playing the game in a very specific manner.
With achievements that favour a given playstyle, you basically have to choose between letting players get every achievement in a single run at the cost of privileging one particular playstyle, or you can make multiple achievements that each require different playstyles, but they then would require playing the game multiple times to get all of them.
Yeah, I felt the same way too, not only does the non-lethal approach provide a happier ending for the story, but it also grants achievements. In Deus Ex series, there's also another problem - rewards, non-lethal stealth takedowns grant much more EXP, than all other types of takedown. Which means you can unlock more skills, but most of those skills are unusable, when you're playing stealthily. So, it's either go guns blazing, but don't unlock your full potential or unlock your full pontential, but you can only use it in the last part of the game, when you're at max level.
yeah... I am the kind of player who feels like stealth is the "right" way to play dishonored... I've actually played the whole series on low chaos, an never even tried the alternative TBH. At least the second game improved the formula by giving stealth drop attacks, and the automatons that provide enemies you can kill while maintaining low chaos, and emily's power are slightly more easily applicable to both style.
But it's still a case where you can't really solve the issue without breaking the promise of player freedom, you can only hope to provide mechanics that make each style enjoyable, preferably mechanics that provide a benefit for both playstyles.
i do like the achievements in the souls series. they are never particularly dificult, no lvl 1 runs, no "no upgrade", and no "speedruns" . even ds2, which has a couple of rings that require you to never die, and never use a bonfire(one for each), doesnt include them in their achievements.
they do, however, have a couple of design decisions in ds 2 that made achievement hunting more troublesome than it was worth it, with the spells requiring either a ng+2 run(or 3, cant remember), or getting deep in the pvp covenants. in all honesty, alot of souls likes have pretty easy achievements to complete.
This reminds me of Assassin's Creed "synchronization". Which is basically little challenges that you might do in the mission of the game. Like, only using limited amount of items that's necessary in the mission, or not taking damage, etc. Which is actually interesting, in a way, you're not truly punished if you fail them. It just means that the mission that you did weren't done 100%. But it gave this feeling of proving that you can do it, even if there's no reward.
Prey: Mooncrash was a stellar mash-up of immersive sim and rogue-like mechanics. I love immersive sims, but like puzzle games, they tend to lose replay value once you figure out the ideal way to solve a problem or encounter. Mooncrash uses random enemies, environmental hazards, and loot to make sure that you are constantly forced to solve new problems with limited equipment, making each run exciting, challenging, and fresh.
You may enjoy Noita and Unexplored (Spelunky to a lesser degree), as problemsolving through complex interactions is important in those roguelikes. It's also the bread and butter of traditional roguelikes btw. If you're interested in that, Brogue (this one is good AND free!) and Golden Krone Hotel & Rift Wizard (but these have graphics!) are -relatively- beginner friendly roguelikes.
Metroidvanias are, themselves, a mashup between different genres. Oftentimes, it's a mix between action games, platformers, and collectathons, but you only really need two of those features to make it at least feel like a metroidvania.
I think you mainly need the non-linear exploration and the increasing amount of tools to tackle obstacles.
If anything I think of it as platformer + puzzle, since it plays like a platformer and often tests your spacial awareness as though as the entire map is a puzzle. They're akin to platformer versions of zelda dungeons in a way
There's also a focus on ability-gated progression. Like leveling up not just numerically, but getting new ways of navigating the world.
Collectathons Are mostly platformers too
@@geschnitztekiste4111 Not all of them. But yes, most of them.
I liked the comment about the worry of the game "betraying" the player. One of my biggest disappointments in recent years was the re-release of Etrian Odyssey 2, part of a series of RPGs that mixes mapmaking and dungeon-crawling. In every other game in the series I've played, there are a ton of options for the style of party you want to build and the way you approach each boss fight. In the EO2 remake, every boss is the same: every 25% of the boss's health bar, it goes into a panic mode where you have to DPS a set amount in just a few turns or your party gets wrecked by whatever the boss' mechanic is. As someone who enjoys a turtley, buff-based party, I had to completely rebuild AND grind so my team could do massive DPS for each new boss and that really ticked me off.
Splitgate is a very clear “Halo meets Portal” mashup game, the gunplay and aesthetics is very much like Halo but the addition of being able to create and shoot through portals turns the entire experience on its head. You don’t just have to think about an arena shooter, you have to be thinking with portals.
...It's no different than using the Translocator in Unreal Tournament was back in 1999.
I wouldn't really consider Splitgate to be a combination of genres. While it does use the portal gun from portal, there aren't any puzzle elements. It's still an arena shooter through and through.
the greatest crime in terms of untapped potential was us getting not one but two Halo Wars games and neither of them tried genre blending a first person shooter/rts co-op campaign where one player controls the spartan as an FPS and the other player is in command of the army as an RTS. For a franchise that has long embraced co-op since its original this was a huge missed opportunity. One the lore practically gift wraps to the design. A spartan is a super soldier, they are meant to be better then everyone else so it makes sense letting one player control and play that like it's a standard halo game, but then let another player control all the weaker marine grunts and vehicles.
I'd add a sub category of the first type: the "surprise" games as I'd like to call them. Aka games where the whole gimmick is that you never know what type of mechanic is gonna be next. It takes two is a great example, but there are even more wacky stuff like What The Golf (which is surprisingly a good well thought game even as the whole gimmick is to be as wtf as possible).
most recently Inscryption did this well
In a very different but related way, What Remains of Edith Finch came to mind. It's not really what one would call 'mechanics' I guess, but the way in which you interract with the story changes for each characters' story, showing their unique perspectives. One story is like a horror, another an RPG. This also keeps the gameplay interesting in a so-called 'Walking Simulator'.
Frog fractions
Sayonara Wild Hearts :)
another one is Evoland II. and probably evoland 1 i haven't played it lol
I hate that almost every single RPG has a thief class but you can't do anything substantial if you choose to be a thief, you still have to fight.
Usually it's pretty much just playing with fast and/or ranged weapons (which most of the time places bows as dex-based weapons despite being more strength-dependent than almost all other weapons), and sometimes there's a steal, sneak, or trap disarm skill you can use once in a blue moon.
Except for Baldur’s Gate :)
This.. Thief class in rpg are always a miss. So many games just default the thief to be the guy that just steals common items like gold/potions/etc, which is practically useless cause you'd probably accumulate a lot just playing the game normally. So most of the time, the thief class just felt like the little brother that your mom tells you to bring to the basketball game.
And sometimes, the thief class gets worse. Despite dealing no damage, and brings no utility, some devs even love to butcher the class more, by giving the steal ability a HIGH CHANCE TO MISS. If there are gamedevs reading this, and you do this, let me have what you're smoking.
Always thought you should take a closer look at the game design of Crusader Kings. The premise of the series is that, unlike Paradox's other strategy games, you play as a succession of rulers instead of a single nation, and the games are thus meant to be a mixture of role-playing and strategy games, with random events helping to direct the flow of your characters' life. Events would offer you multiple choices that might affect your character's traits depending on which option you chose. But the issue with CK2 was that it was very easy to make the optimal choices for every event instead of choosing the option that would make the most sense from a roleplaying perspective. And since it was easy to gain or lose traits, characters didn't become very distinct from each other.
Crusader Kings 3 essentially solved this problem by introducing a Stress system. Instead of a generic stress trait like the preceding game, CK3 has a stress meter which accumulates every time you make a decision that your character's personality disagrees with. If this meter reaches a certain level, you have a "mental break" and you gain a negative trait to "deal with the stress" (for example, alcoholism or a gambling addiction). You can reduce stress by taking breaks, prayer, spending time with friends and family, and generally just relaxing and having fun. Some traits (including both positive ones like hunter and negative ones like drunkard) even allow you to reduce stress through special means (e.g. going hunting, drowning your sorrows, etc.). So the game finally is able to blend the roleplaying and strategy gameplay in a cohesive way.
It's hard to digest everything you said when I'm distracted by "haha funny horse monarch go neigh"
@@CoralCopperHead wow you have such an innovative and fresh sense of humour 🙄
One of my favorite "hand off" style games is 13 sentinels: Aegis rim. The game is split into 3 parts and to progress in one area you need to occasionally switch to a different one so you cant just play all of the visual novel style story with the 13 protagonists without the real time strategic combat sections. Each of the 13 protagonists stories are also different genres, some are detective mystery solving campaigns while others are fast paced action style sequences. This game is such a gem but is so obscure.
Yes! I was waiting for this kind of comment to show up! I'm about 75% of the way through, and in my opinion, the genres combine to form the best gameplay loop I've ever experienced. Also, Wave 2-10 Seaside Vacation.
@@myst6673 I looked through most of the comments and didn't find anybody else mentioning aegis rim which really surprised me because the genres compliment each other perfectly
kinda reminds me of live a live
First one that comes to mind is Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain. During the stealth segments, the fact that you can "extract" enemy soldiers mid mission to work on your home base incentivises you to be good at the stealth and go nonelethal, since you can't extract soldiers if the base is on alert, and extracting good soldiers is crucial to getting your base to develop better equipment for you to use in the stealth missions.
Well yes but like with most of the game, it was very much so just half baked. The egregiously long time required to get them out from brig, the ops missions which had a basic rng factor for win or lose, especially for higher difficulty ones that took hrs to finish was just taking the piss. The base building elements and the soldiers stats and traits were also very meaningless in the grand scheme of things.
That wasn't really my experience, I don't even like base management and crafting trees in most games but I was checking in all the time in MGSV precisely because the stealth was feeding into it and it was feeding back into the stealth in the form of better gear, and the missions were hard enough for me that scraping enough resources to upgrade stuff really was making a difference.
@@bruhder5854 "The base building elements and the soldiers stats and traits were also very meaningless in the grand scheme of things."
Of course they're going to be meaningless if you aren't using them -- Combat is only good for OuterOPs so I can understand the issue there, and sure, Medical is only good for improving the odds of rescuing injured soldiers, BUT:
Without R&D, you don't get worthwhile weapons. Without Support, your aerial bombardments are terribly inaccurate. Without Intel... well, I can't explain exactly what they do, but if you're in the field without D-Dog and you've got a crappy Intel team, _you'll know._
@@CoralCopperHead that's not what I'd meant. I meant it was very shallow and did barely anything. Like what's the point of having a whole dedicated system like that when a simple rank system or a story progression system could already accomplish the same thing in a much much less convoluted faction. They used a system that had so much more potential but ended up with the most basic way of doing things.
Base building for instance is a mess largely because of the design in which it is done. Separated bases with a long ass bridge which just takes too much time to move through unless you chopper it. With RnD the idea of hiding some specific weapons behind some specific people you needed was great but most of the weapons just went with the guns blazing approach in a stealth game that made no sense.
@@bruhder5854 Funfact, you can use a cardboard box to fast travel between delivery points on Mother Base, just like in the open world areas.
Into the Breach is my favorite mashup. Roguelike-Tactics-Puzzler. It's using the blend option here and it's pretty great.
to me its zettai hero project. its a traditional rogue like(as in true old school enemies move when you do), but it has the best story mode of any rogue like. it doesnt focus on the punishment of the player for dying, but instead makes it part of the theme. also, it did hades long before even bastion was a thing.
also, it embraced the rogue like aspects and gameplay, and made the exploration and equipment part of the reward, so you always felt like you could swap stuff and it would be worth it.
it is a mashup in the sense it did a story mode that works closer to a traditional video game, with each dungeon being an episode of a tv series.
Invisible Inc comes to mind as an interesting genre mash-up. It combines a stealth game with a tactics game with a roguelite, which might seem like a lot, but it does a good job using each genre's traits to complement the other.
So stealth games can famously involve a lot of waiting for enemies to move or react to your actions, but making it clear that the enemy is going to move when it's their turn, and you can trigger that turn whenever you're ready, means you spend a lot less time just staring at a wall waiting for an audio-visual cue that the enemy is where you need them to be.
And tactics games can encourage save-scumming until you get the one perfect run of a level after you've played it enough times to know all the tricks it's going to throw at you in response to each tactical option. But the procedurally generated levels make that far less viable.
Procedural generation also helps keep the stealth fresh, since each level sends you into a completely new building with a completely different floor plan, so you have to fill out your map, find your key objectives, develop a strategy to obtain them, and make your exit, all while still staying hidden from the guards who grow in number and awareness over time.
It's certainly not a perfect title, but it's quite ambitious and achieves most of its ambitions with a lot of cleverness. I'd love to see Klei make a sequel some day and apply some lessons learned from the first game's experiments and what they've made since.
Sundered is a metroidvania with some procedural generation, and it blends both together really well - so much so that I didn't notice it until my third or fourth playthrough. It's definitely my favourite genre mashup, and tied for my #1 favourite game.
Every big room is made of smaller ones, and those small rooms are the ones that change - so skill shrines, lore rooms, etc. never change their location, but the path to them will be slightly different.
Each small room has a pretty big variety of designs too, and it's enough for you not to notice it's procedural until playing for a bit.
5:08 Another great example is Metal Gear Solid: Peace Walker. You recruit soldiers by knocking them out, whom are used to strengthen Mother Base. This lets you develop better gear, which help you in battle.
dont forget how it also helps the game mensage, and makes the player want to go for the non lethal aprouches as opposed to the kill them all, the earlier games tried to "punish" the player for.
The subtle genius of the few games like Mount & Blade and X4 is always striking to me. They're very robust strategy and economic sims, but from the perspective of a combat capable action game protagonist.
Currently, my favorite genre-Blend is "BPM - Bullets Per Minute", wich combines First-Person-Shooter, Rogue-like and Rhythm-game.
I can't get over how amazing that game is still- no other game had me so hyped just to learn what a new gun's reload animation was
@@boiboi7717 oh I got good news for you! Have you heard of Metal Hellsinger?
*bursts into this comment* METAL HELLSINGER... sorry any excuse I can get
@@theodorealenas3171 I have not 0_0
@@onezerotwo BBBITCH!
Perfect timing, I just started playing Persona 5 Strikers and loved how it mixes the usual JRPG style with Omega Force's Warriors-style series. Piqued my interest in this topic in time for this episode :D
Always a good day when there’s a new GMTK video drop
I think that superior method to all of these, is to first come up with a well though out idea about what the game should be about. And then create game mechanics tailored to that idea independently of some pre-defined genres. It is more work, and tinkering to get it right, but I am sure better games will come out of it.
Once you limit yourself to a genre, you usually limit yourself to technical approaches it uses, and you close many paths just by that. Not saying this is a way for game dev beginner, but in current competition it might have better chance to success than some milionth platformer, and you will learn much more from it too.
Although the Blend method is probably the most creative way to design a game, I particularly like tons of Hand-Off ideas. One thing that strikes me as very powerful is the concept of routine in games... For example, Danganronpa has basically 3 different playstyles with some minigames sprinkled in the mix. But because the game cycles through these playstyles in the same order, you start to anticipate what is coming next. Not only does it grabs your attention, but it also keeps the momentum of the narrative.
Henry Hatsworth and the Puzzling Adventure is my all-time hidden gem game, a DS action-platformer where all enemies killed have their soul thrown into a constantly moving match-3 puzzler on the bottom screen, where you can both stop their ascent and earn points for a super robot suit.
I have a lot of fun trying to mash up genres with the Blend method. I think the most successful one I've tried was mashing up a Rogue-like Dungeon with elements from racing games and Speedrun games. (Of course the name had to be Speedrungeon.) It was very fun finding abilities that not only allowed you to explore and interact with the dungeon, but also to make sure that every ability also allowed you to boost your speed. Such as stabbing a wall to launch yourself away from it, or launching a fireball to blast yourself like a rocket in the opposite direction. Really glad it all came together like that.
Racing + Roguelike actually sounds like a really good pairing that I'm surprised isn't more common. Tuning up your car between races in a tournament or something.
Thank you so much for showing footage of Yoku’s Island Express. That game is so underrated.
At least that means I get to grab it at $2 lol, what a deal
3:43 One good way to approach this problem is with music. Some games set the pace of a level letting you know what is expecting you to do with musical cues.
It's not a genere changer, but how athletic levels in SMB3 and onwards have, well, athletic themes, is a good example. You know it will be a fast paced level a soon as you hear the first notes.
And, of course, thematic levels are also a solution. The way puzzle solving levels in SMW are mostly prevalent in Haunted Mansions is another example. When you get into a level like that, you now there will be some hidden trick to clear the level.
I just finished Yoku's Island Express this week! A very interesting mashup with genres and ideas that I never thought possible. It's all a little bit silly, but that's part of the charm :)
We're finally back to our regularly scheduled programming, welcome back Mark!
Rain World is a phenomenal example of these "genre blends". It borrows elements from many, many genres (survival, platformer, metroidvania, roguelike, strategy, etc) and it works perfectly. With incredibly crafted AI-driven enemies that spawn in semi-random locations inside a handcrafted world where you have to scavenge for food to and maneuver around tricky terrain, it takes my personal favorite bits about each genre and mixes them brilliantly into one cohesive and incredible title. Not one genre sticks out above the rest aside from survival, which is what the whole game revolves around.
More people need to take notice of this game and talk about it in videos such as this one, because more often than not I'm able to easily make connections between the topic at hand and Rain World. It's also just an incredible game in general, lol.
Hopefully the release of the Downpour expansion will provide an opportunity for people to reconsider the game outside of its initial reception as being too user-hostile (which is obviously the point of a game about being a prey animal).
The downside is that it might just end up being considered the "Dark Souls of platformers".
I played Rain World for 10+ hours which is not much but it was enough for me to be frustrated and stop playing, it's a very good designed game except the UI-UX itself. At any point I'm not sure what is going on, there are too many different and hidden moves you can only find if you google them. Which is not a good way of communicating the game features to the player.
Some people say it's like Dark Souls but it's actually not. In Dark Souls you know the every action YOU can take with each action having their separate key dedicated to them (almost) but don't know the actions your ENEMY can take, so that's where the learning and practicing comes in the effect, git gud after all. But in Rain World, you don't know the actions you will take too. Am I jumping up or forward, it's a 3-4 pixel change in the animation. So here comes the frustration
Yes
@@alperenelbasan7909 To be fair, the entire point of the game is to make you completely powerless and alone (aside from Iggy the overseer but he doesn’t count). Doesn’t work for everyone and it doesn’t have to. It’s unfortunate you were unable to enjoy it as much as I do.
My favorite genre mashup has to be Yoku's Island Express. Pinball metroidvania - there's no way it should work, but it does beautifully.
A close second would be Lair of the Clockwork God. Point and click adventure game and 2d platformer, where almost each level has to be seen from both perspectives. The mashup is represented by two characters who are constantly bickering about their genre being the best, and the writing is top-notch.
I personally think that CrossCode blends genres really well. It takes a top-down zelda puzzeler and mashes it with bullet-hell-esque fights and RPG leveling and skill trees. Probably one of the best indie titles out there.
Wow, this is precisely the kind of video that I was in need of, as it just so happens to be that I decided to start working on a genre combo yesterday. Thanks!
One thing about combat in Persona 5 is that it almost feels rhythm based even though it’s technically not. It somewhat adds a genre for players to interact with once they get the feel for regular battles.
Too bad the game constantly yanks you out of the engaging dungeons to wander around a boring fascimile of the real world and form shallow 'relationships' with a party full of obnoxious teenagers that do nothing but remind us of how absolutely fucking _horrible_ high school was.
@@CoralCopperHead If you want to play just the JRPG stuff in Persona, go play Shin Megami Tensei then.
@@CoralCopperHead I mean if u want to play a dungeon crawler without a teenage life sim, why even play persona in the first place?
@@Motivatedragon the point isnt that they didnt want a teenage life sim alongside a dungeon crawler, instead the point is that they didnt like the teenage life sim
I once discussed Prototype mechanics with some random people and ended up realizing that it, Arkham series and Metal Gear(the one used as example was Phantom Pain) are the only action games that use twin stralth/combat system. Infamous, Spiderman, several others. They all had scripted stealth at best. There was no core "no alert/alert raised" gameplay difference.
As for interesting combination, I always liked the idea of FPS/TPS and tactics/RTS mix. Even if they always fall flat by being hard to combine.
I love it when a game can play completely different depending on what path you take, especially in RPGs, instead of having a few different names and sprites with the same core gameplay, now every path is a completely different experience and a different journey you may take.
Starcraft was first such experience for me.
The quality of video editing down to matching lines in the script to actual gameplay is next level. Let's go GMTK!
Geogre Lucas did it with Star Wars being SciFi and Fantasy for movies. As for videogames it's cool seening a Metroidvania being combined with Turn Based Battles like Monstsr Sanctuary for example.
Star Wars actually takes much more inspiration from Kurosawa-era samurai films than classic fantasy like Lord of the Rings
@The Grey Area I know that I'm talking about the Force being the fantasy aspect of Star Wars along with the Sith and Jedi.
@@FTChomp9980 I’d say there that you’re also mistaken. Due to how strictly Star Wars draws from The Hero With a Thousand Faces, I’d say that the fantastical elements are much closer in vision to mythology than fantasy
That kind of mashup wasn't really new to Star Wars, it took a lot of style notes from old serials like Flash Gordon.
@@The-Grey-Area Mythology, Fantasy and Sci-Fi are one and the same.
I find it useful to consider what gameplay loop (ie: primary, secondary etc.) a genre describes. “Rogue-like” in a broad definition, only refers to the secondary loop of runs, random generation, and permanent-death. It says nothing about the primary loop. Therefore, we get rogue like shooters, rogue like brawlers, rogue like strategy. The only things rogue like can’t share space with is other genre descriptors that describe the secondary loop. You can’t have rogue like Metroid-vania, because Metroid vania is a secondary loop descriptor. The only way to combine them is to shift between them, and play each one at a time.
Similarly, first loop descriptors like shooter and strategy struggle to coexist as well. It can be done, but it requires clever game design to weave them into each other. Like mixing oil and water, you need an emulsifier to create a stable loop that fits two descriptors.
Interesting, but I think you can make mashing two secondary loops work, you just need to be aware of it and push one of them out to be a tertiary loop.
For our roguelike + metroidvania example, you could have a roguelike secondary loop where you gain persistent abilities for the next runs, similar to Rogue Legacy. Or you could have a game where traversal abilities are hidden in each procedurally generated maze and unlock different parts of the maze to explore, which I can’t think of an example of.
This addresses my biggest issue with games that are made now. Back in the day you always had a mix of different mechanics and styles in your games. Nowadays, you get just one. Play the roguelike game, play the battle royale game, play the racing game. I want that variety back damnit! Give me an open world RPG, put puzzles in it, give me racing sections, give me intense shooting sections, give me visual novel style romance sections. Why does everything have to be so boring now?
Edit: Like Nier Automata was amazing because of what it did with your camera in certain sections of the game, the majority of it is third-person over the shoulder, then you get a top down diablo style section, and in another bit of the game it's a 2.5d sidescroller.
Honesty, if you don't want to put mechanics from different genres in your game at least mess around with the camera. When done right, it can make the game feel more dynamic and lead to a more memorable experience.
"Back in the day you always had a mix of different mechanics and styles in your games." And people hated them most of them time, to the point where phrases like "mandatory vehicle section" still strike dread in some people. Why? Because most of the time they were half-baked and poorly balanced. Not because developers were lazy or incompetent, but because inserting a new mechanic isn't as simple as just snapping your fingers. Making a solid mechanic requires a lot of time, i.e. money. And money is always limited, either because you're an indie on a tight budget, or because you're in a AAA studio where you need to justify every expense to the executives. And it's difficult to justify spending a lot of money on a mechanic that a lot of players might never even engage with. So these mechanics were made either with minimal effort and later on most devs decided that it was better to focus on making a few very good and fleshed out mechanics rather than a whole bunch of mediocre ones. Alternatively, you make a lot of individual mechanics that are simple on their own, but are designed to closely interact with each other, resulting in much more complex gameplay.
"Give me an open world RPG, put puzzles in it, give me racing sections, give me intense shooting sections, give me visual novel style romance sections." I prefer to instead have one or two multi-purpose mechanics. One of the best examples of that was Puzzle Quest, where the match 3 mechanic was used for combat, capturing enemies, crafting items, and learning new spells, with each having slightly different rules. It was a brilliant example of how to get the absolute most out of a single idea.
you're the first person I've ever met to have enjoyed those jack of all trades mediocre packages of the mid-2000s that is by everyone else understood as a dull time in game history
@@dopaminecloud Speak for yourself, clearly there are others like me who enjoyed them. And what games are you referencing exactly? Because primarily what came to mind for me was Ratchet and Clank.
@@tomshraderd4915 I see what you're saying, but also remember that back in the day devs didn't really have a strong grasp on how to exactly make a game good. Think about control schemes for any 5 ps2 titles that aren't sequels, and you'll see that each game had starkly different controls. Where as nowadays we've figured out pretty much universal controls for a lot of games. I'd argue it was a matter of inexperience that made those games with multiple different mechanics pale in comparison to their single mechanic counterparts. Also, as stated in the video those multimechanic games often get compared to games that only focus on doing one or a few things, which isn't fair.
Regardless, I'd like some more variety in my games. I just wanna see people try new things, and make interesting mixes because I'm tired of seeing souls likes, roguelike clones, and battle royale clones that offer nothing but the bare minimum.
I really like what you said about using genres that compliment each other as opposed to those that conflict with each other. I think a lot of people run into problems where they add mechanics from some genre that don't really fit. RPG elements are a great example of this. People think they're a good way for your player to feel a sense of progress, but it just simply doesn't make sense in every context.
Damn, just seeing Lumines featured ANYWHERE makes me so nostalgic. I've spent thousands of hours on that game, literally breaking TWO PSPs in the process (extra sad since one was jailbroken for playing old PS1 games). Anyway, nice to see someone remembering that game still. :)
Played that on PS2. Was totally hooked. Good times.
A brilliant game! My wife didn't grow up playing games like I did and doesn't consider herself a gamer, but her Lumines skill far eclipses mine. I love games that possess such appeal beyond the usual audience without resorting to sleazy F2P micro-transaction-based or ad-based design.
Here is an idea for a future video. I've always wondered about the importance of cutscenes in video games and why they probably should matter. It's rare I see anyone do a talk or video on this subject.
I just happened to have a discussion about this earlier today. I argued that where Darkest Dungeon looks a lot like some rogue-like (or rogue-lite) game, it actually shares a lot with management games, enrolled adventurers being the primary resource.
I always thought DD was basically XCOM with a different aesthetic, and with mission performance feeding back much more strongly into the strategy layer.
*Inscription:* The mix of a card game, a roguelite, and an escape room was such an amazing design, my only critique is that there isn't MORE of it!
*Darkest Dungeon:* Like X-Com, turn-based combat in the dungeons with base upkeep+unit management at the hamlet. I hope DD2 ends up as good by the time it leaves early access.
*Rain World:* Metroidvania + simulator, absolutely incredible!
*Lob Corp:* Visual novel + management sim + roguelite, makes for a nice narrative-reward structure when you make it further than you did last run.
*Noita:* Roguelite + sandbox, what a bonkers concept!
Though I think the ultimate one would have to be *Terraria,* the original great sandbox RPG.
Hand off, if made well, also has the advantage of having each genre play into the next. Persona 5’s visual novel segments give boosts to the RPG segments, and a boss sometimes gates the progress of each relationship.
This can also be done in an upgrade system too! For instance, one RPG hands off to an upgrade/inventory system that’s puzzle like. To get the best boosts or to grab all you can, you have to use your head a bit.
It's always neat when the genres synergise with or feed into each other
Your content is criminally underrated kudos to the in depth and spontaneous quality you always put into your videos... wish more developers thought about this Combination of genres...
Some of my favorites:
The original Sonic the Hedgehog games on the Genesis/Mega Drive are something of a mashup between Super Mario Bros.-style momentum-based platformers, pinball, and vert skateboarding (specifically with the integration of half-pipes and quarter-pipes into the level geometry). Many of the 'Special Stages' also resemble racing games.
Buck Up And Drive! is a fighting/racing hybrid. The Super Smash Bros. games are fighting/platforming hybrids. SEUM: Speedrunners from Hell is like Super Meat Boy meets Quake. Snakeybus is the lovechild of Crazi Taxi and Snake. Loot River adds Tetris-style block fitting with Soulslike combat. Race the Sun is a racing/roguelike.
Metroidvanias in general are essentially a blend of the platforming and adventure genres.
Counterpoint: labryinth zone
@@randoncourter4923 Counter-Counterpoint: Sonic 3 & Knuckles.
Unsure how that's a counterpoint. Yeah, not every stage in Sonic 1 had those vert skateboarding elements. However, most do. Plus, the games after Sonic 1 are more consistent in that regard.
Besides, the ability to become a ball, and to ricochet off of enemies and items, is integrated into Sonic's moveset, so you can still enjoy some mild genre blending even in Labyrinth Zone.
my favourite game is spyro 3 which is everything and the kitchen sink approach to genre design, and it's awesome
REALLY surprised that you didn't bring up Sanctum, especially sanctum 2. That is the most quintessential example of blending genres. Tower defense + FPS turns out to be a really fun combination
Your video came at the perfect time! My friend and I were thinkng about a truly jawdropping and original game we could create, and eventually came to the thought of combining genres to create something different and then expanding from there. Not even 1 hour later and lo and behold, I see your video! Thanks a million, this was truly helpful.
Hey now, Miss Ruby's rhytm boss fight is great and you can't convince me otherwise.
That is my favorite fight in the whole game.
i really love how these videos end up being about stuff i didn't even know i needed
also, the fact that anecdotes from working on Untitled magnet game, gives the video an extra layer of insight
My Summer Car is a weird mix of many genres, but it works still great.
I like that a lot of the advice you give in these videos is pragmatic (such as using marketing and in-game messages to mitigate the problems of the playstyle method). I don't think you ever really push that the most elegant and artistic way of dealing with a design challenge is the ONLY way
The first Actraiser on SNES. Mixing action sidescroller and city builder with a bit of topdown shooter.
A person of culture right here
@@sebtrainwoo That game was awesome ! 😄
I work at a game co-dev studio that mainly works on fps games and what we've noticed is a hugeeee embrace of RPG mechanics in popular shooters. Weapon and character progression models in RPGs are amazing at retention so shooters are taking their own approach. Shooters are also using the language of "tank", "damage", and "support" more and more and actually creating content that allows players to play that way because it appeals to a wider audience. Because they're doing this, it allows designers like me to draw on those same values and assert a focus on the narrative and characterization that RPGs use.
On the other hand, I had one client try to merge the genres, card game + multiplayer RPG. It did not work out because instead of carving a new genre as they'd planned, both genres fought for meta-focus and as a result, their retention was very low.
spelunky is one of those games that you can just talk about forever in terms of design
The thing in method 1 about clearly showing what is going to happen in the stage reminds me of Portal. Every test chamber had a little sign about what was going to be in the puzzle of the room. While not exactly the same as what was being talked about in the video, I think how it conveys the information is really clear and easy to understand which could be applied to conveying what skill sets a level would need.
Makes sense he’s making this video while he works on his puzzle platformer
My experience working on Untitled Magnet Game directly inspired this episode!
I read Derek Yu’s spelunky book years ago and it made a MASSIVE impression on me. Highly recommended.
Agreed. Derek Yu's book is a fantastic read, very well written, and full of inspiring ideas about game design. (I got a lot of useful ideas about procedural level generation from it).
"Untitled Magnet Game" got a title while I wasn't looking...a year ago! Time flies when you're doing things and only occasionally get notified of GMTK vids! Much love.
It seems like rougelikes are a good genre to blend with others. Crypt of the necrodancer, Slay the spire, Into the breach, Spelunky, etc.
There's a definite special place in my heart for Mega Mash, a game on Nitrome! It was a platformer, where different areas of the level were all from different games and if you entered one, suddenly you were a spaceship rather than a demolition expert. It was great.
Humans like to try and make EVERYTHING fit neatly into a category. Art is one of the hardest to do that to.
Im glad you mentioned the play styles and how players will pick one and stick to it instead of being more fluid. I definitely did this with dishonored but it really helped with the replay ability of it. I did also find myself being sneaky on my "mayhem" playthroughs, but I did switch to out of it if I got detected. I actually told myself, this is a no re-load playthrough, instead of a mayhem one. That way my brain knows to just keep playing the game, instead of re loading a save.
Natural selection 2. Enough said. 😅
Seriously though, in it's prime, that game was amazing. Top down rts combined with a first person shooter/biter. Both games generally revolve around combat/tactics, so when combined they created something fairly special.
It always puts a smile on my face when one of your videos pops up on my feed because I just know it's gonna be the best part of my day
Sakuna: Of Rice and Ruin is probably the most brilliantly designed game I’ve ever played. One half combat platformer, one half rice farming simulator, and they stitched the two halves together flawlessly.
Also, I’m surprised you never mentioned NieR: Automata.
no mention of mgs either. one of the first mash up games.
I SAW THAT THUMPER CLIP MARK, YOU CAN'T HIDE IT FROM US.
In all seriousness, that game is probably my favorite take on non-traditional rhythm gaming, as it is a rhythm game without proper music. This, combined with the need for quick reactions and a punishive damage system made me love Thumper and play it through three more times even after finishing all it had to offer.
For anyone that doesn't know the game, please search up a trailer and give it a go. The devs describe its gameplay as "rhythmic violence", and I can't think of a better way to sell the brutality of it.
I liked when Sega combined racing with choose your own adventure books to create Outrun.
I think the game Dead Cells did the "blend" method very well, even though you said Metroidvanias and Roguelikes don't really mix. It manages to be extremely fun exploring the random levels and world while also having great combat and upgrades.
Well that's subjective. I played the game upto 2 bc with a total of maybe 30 runs and left it there because a lot of the design decisions I just didn't agree with ended up getting in the way.
Take the idea of skill based combat where reaction time is key and learning those skills will be rewarded constantly but then also add the variable of the weapons, tools, etc having a major impact on how well you perform and then add another variable of lvling up which scales with areas. If you decide to take 2 lv 4 weapons because you want to or because they synergize well, they won't be able to perform well at all in an area with lv 7 enemies. The game is at that point pushing you to change your equipment to be closer or equal to the enemies you're facing but at the same time your loot equipment is randomized and expanding as you unlock more stuff. Randomized means it may not synergize well with your playstyle, build, preferences and ends up limiting your choices. Unlocking so many means diluted pool and you've a much lower odd of acquiring a weapon you'd want to have for your build, playstyle or preference and it also means that you'll need to spend more time using stuff you don't enjoy.
Matter of preference I understand but I really grew to severely dislike that design loop the more I played. Imo if the game had a much lower pool of equipment and the equipment ability system was more fluid with choices to build upon a foundation instead of replacing it with a different one over the course of a run, it'd be better.
Does Dead Cells use block-based level generation(like Spelunky and A Robot Named Fight!)? Because that combines the best of both handcrafting and procedural generation
I am currently playing through Cyberpunk, and it actually feels like it did such a good job at Method 2. Some quests do have a stealth incentive, but are not required. A majority don't care whether you are stealthy or not, so I always feel more comfortable doing hack or takedown stealth and not feel bad if I just swap to combat because someone finally spotted me. And swapping back is possible though not perfect because enemies never seem to get out of the "alert" phase. It actually feels like there is a lot of value in specing into different or multiple things, and not specing into something doesn't leave you completely unable to use it. ie stealth or fist fighting
A bad version of it, at least at the end is VtM:Bloodlines. You can stealth or social through pretty much the whole game avoiding combat, then you hit the endgame and it is essentially a boss rush and may find yourself under-powered for it.
a game i recently discovered with my friends is Carrier Command 2
at first, it looks like an interesting take on the RTS genre, where youre actually physically on the battlefield onboard the aircraft carrier, from which all units are started, you can freely walk around it even! but today we noticed, its also a rogue like, cause every run has a newly generated map.
honestly, it feels like a combo of RTS, First person Simulation, Logistics managment AND roguelike.
best to play as a group, it really shines when you coordinate as a group, when one gives you bearings, enemy movement, distance and water curent diection for a torpedo shot and you quickly calculate which bearing you have to fire in and with what delay you have to activate the sonar guidance on the torpedo
or when one player marks enemies over the gimble camera of a scouting specialised plane and the other takes them out with the attack chopper while the third makes sure the carrier stays out of range of retaliation while the 4th starts to deploy the amphibious ground troups.
My favorite blend combo has to be card-roguelike-deck builder like slay the spire or hearthstones dungeon runs
Inscryption is great at it too!
there is so much of them that it is now a gender itself.
@@VilasNil Haven't played it but might try it out soon.
Respecs in games are a great way to either fix your mistakes or even try a different play style. My current computer game that I play is called Stolen Realm and since each character can pick from any of the power trees, they have unlimited respecs (each costing a small fee that you can easily get from a quest) and let's you test out different build as much as you want.
Crypt of the Necrodancer accidentally made it one of the hardest roguelikes to have ever been created. Roguelikes are known for their randomness and difficulty with each run bringing different tools that vary greatly in strength. Rhythm games push players to play each song to perfection without missing a single beat or note. This combination makes the random difficulty in items combined with severe punishments for playing off rhythm or skipping beats (something cemented even further with characters that will kill you for failing to play off beat) makes Necrodancer one of the hardest roguelikes to have ever been made, but I think that's a good thing. It stands out as this extremely quirky genre mix that is also one of the hardest games to complete and stands the test of time by not trying to follow conventional game design.
Racing game, for me, is one that's the hardest to figure out a genre mix. Since racing itself comes with a wide variety of tracks and cars, each race could feel like a different game mode, different world, and even characters.
F1 2021 had a great idea of incorporating a story into a game as one way to make the players immerse into the world of F1. Gran Turismo has a cool concept of having GT Cafe where you got to know the cars you meet and drive, with dialogues feels like you're playing an RPG, which disappointingly was enforced as the main career system instead of a fun talk and round.
I and my brother talked bout this before, that racing genre hasn't been the most wanted of all time as it was back in...2005 (get it?), mentioning that the lack of diversity of the genre doomed itself to obsoletion. Since then, I kept a thought: A light-novel-inspired story playing along with racing? As barebone as it is, I believed Most Wanted 2005 has a decent storyline, F1 2022 (well, tried to) incorporate story into gameplay as a sort of storytelling, yet both has yet to reach its utmost potential. Forza Horizon 1 left quite an ending as open as its world, FH5's story made NFS 2015 looks like edible gold, NFS Unbound... it did its best.
This is more or less just a rant on how I feel bout mixing genre and racing genre in general. I've got a handful of tales on cars and games to talk about, and I'd love to see a new page on racing games, than just how the game plays, or how the story goes.
I've always lover the idea of a Fighting game RPG. Like Pokemon except the combat is fighting game style.
Def jam kinda does that already but man I'd really hate to see a more stats heavy Pokémon like fighting game. I hate the idea of stats, elements (fire, water, wind, etc) or something like that having an impact on the match instead of it being just the raw skills of the players.
@@bruhder5854 yeah, that's definitely not what I want, I want things like unlocking special moves and leveling up.
This. I absolutely hate pokemon game design despite the pfp but i would love a pokemon fighting/strategy game hybrid. Pokken was just too much tekken with skins, it had potential but it wasn't fleshed out. I'm talking about a story, an entire region, catching with pokeballs, levelling up, learning moves and swapping builds, team battle of course, type advantage... But the battle actually plays out in a fighting game arena and you can always use your personal skill to overcome the enemy strategy. You would have a smaller set of fighting pokemon that gets bigger with time and sequels, perhaps with some copy pasted moves to make it easier for the devs, and then the others as supports that grant you actual pokemon moves and status effects or change your type advantage, maybe even add in a turn based attack between the rounds. This is one of the only ways i could get into the franchise. If pokken 2 ever gets done it needs to have at least a couple of these things.
Have you ever played the pokemon rumble series? I think that combat could be upgraded a bit and ported into a mainline game. Make combat top-down and real-time, give each of the 4 face buttons a move, have cooldowns/PP resource management; can still keep the RPG stata behind it but adds a huge element of player skill.
Spelunky will always be my favorite in this context, but I'm glad there was some Elden Ring footage in the second section because I really appreciate just how well that game (and the franchise in general) manages to balance between action and RPG, for two main reasons:
1. The slow pace makes it more manageable for someone without the lightning-fast reflexes required for many action games, but it also makes the character progression more immediate: when a single hit can be so decisive you'll quickly notice a big difference when putting just a few points in different stats, compared to many turn-based RPGs in which your may not realize the pros and cons of your build until you've gone through hundreds of battles across dozens of dungeons.
2. The balance of stats, gear, abilities and spells encourages you to play the way you prefer. If you like fast-paced action you can put all your points in damage and blast through the game, but you'll be up close with every enemy and you won't be able to use much armor or other damage mitigation tricks, so just one or two mistimed inputs can mean swift death. On the other hand, if you play defensively and carefully you'll be able to use many ranged items and offensive and defensive spells to avoid damage, but you'll have to think up different strategies and put everything you've found while exploring to good use. In short, the axe-swinging barbarian player will have a tense, fast-paced game experience while the cunning mage player will have to play at the pace a cunning mage would, taking their time to explore and experiment to "solve" each encounter.
The game that comes to my mind that amazingly blends genres is Deadcells.
When recommending to a friend, u would say its a blend of metroidvania + rougelite. Cause that's what it is. People love metroidvania, and rougelikes are pinnacle of minute to minute and emergent fun. Why wouldn't they like Deadcells. But as evident in the video these genres are incompatible.
That's where the catch comes in. See, the game is actually a Hand-Off style action platformer. Where both the genres contribute to the mix, ur weapons and the map is a rougelike system but enemy types and platforming is dictated by the metroidvania angle. U can't access all the areas and the whole area map when u begin the game, meaning it's enticing u with that "come back here later" play. But u can still beat it without even investing into the metroidvania aspect. Making the game into just a rougelike with action rich gameplay.
But!!!! But. The game is a ROUGELITE. Where u can unlock skins and weapons, permanently upgrade ur weapon bonuses and health portions. U unlock abilities that work through out the game and reveal new areas. METROIDVANIA. U can do all this at ur own pace. Each ability is unique and all the areas are very distinguishable. And, I would say the lvl map always follow some pattern structure making it more of a metroidvania branching paths than rougelike.
It keeps the metroidvania lvls and map very distinguished from its rougelite combat and progress but finds that perfect blend of aspects.
And it also supports 3 types of game play, adding another level of complexity to this spice mix.
Honestly, it is a mad man's ordeal to even attempt developing this. Hats of to the devs.
A great example that has been woefully underlooked is an XBOX game called Phantom Dust. It is both a 3rd person arena fighter and... a card game. You might hear Card Game and turn your brain off, but it's not like that at all. The skill system and level design revolved around "drawing" skills from a "deck" location on your map, and using the environment to physically assault your opponent with said skills. Additionally, you have the whole deck building and card collecting aspect. It's not only an underappreciated gem, but it's an excellent example of just how radically you can take this approach, and that people have been doing it long before Nuclear Throne or Dark Souls left a permanent mark on the industry.
Some of my favorite games are bizarre genre mash-ups that logically shouldn't make sense. Pyre is a part sports, part visual novel. Haven is part romantic visual novel part rollerblading RPG. NieR:Replicant and Automata are part RPG, part hack-n-slash and part bullet hell. Battle Chef Brigade was already mentioned for how crazy its mash-up is. Tower of Time is part dungeon crawler and part RTS combat. And of course anything by Daniel Mullins (Pony Island, The Hex, Inscryption) will smash genres, the fourth wall and your brain.
I am just making a seminar work about videogame design and just writing a chapter on genres. This video's timing is perfect!
"clunky turn based battles"
Man why does everyone hate turn based combat. Octopath had some great combat imo.
Turn based combat will never ever be as bad as the mindless epileptic button mashing they replaced it with in games like final fantasy xv
@@rooty omg XV's combat was so bad. One of the wost ARPGs I've ever played.
I did this with my game, its a hack and slash on the base level, but you can play with stealth, or you can simply just run past all the enemies and play the objective. In my opinion, mixing game genres is easier than sticking to one
Easier and messier. The core design ends up falling flat often as the player just ends up sticking to the one thing that works and bulldozes through without delving too deep in the mechanics.
Would love to see an episode about Stray. Maybe about its unique exploration (and storytelling) as a cat, or its tendency to give mechanics and take them away.
My favourite "hand-off" genre-combining game is Mount and Blade. Similar to what you said, it jumps between genres of gameplay but serves the same goals. As the game is open to modding, the goals and gameplay can both be expanded and improved. The goals may be world domination, marrying a character/making a harem, following quest lines with story, build your customized army, etc. The gameplay genres are: third/first person action RPG, real time strategy (commanding your soldiers fighting alongside you), trading and economy simulation, relationship and politics simulation, arranging equipment and skill points for companions and customised soldiers, etc.
As the game is also open to cheating and "tweaking" (changing few stuffs, especially numbers in the game rules) by casual players, the game at least give the player a tool to skip the part(s) the player doesn't like.