As an electrical engineer... I'm pretty confidant that when you mount the sensor to the block, you're getting a ground lift. That is to say, they did something silly and grounded the case of the sensor to the sensor ground. Sensor ground should ALWAYS bet separate from your engine ground. Something is likely leaking current into your engine ground and the metal case of the sensor is then connecting to your motor ground and the current is enough to lift the sensor ground, thus the voltage delta seen from no magnet to magnet there is not enough to be seen by the detector circuit all the time, and you get intermittent readings. Isolate the metal case of the sensor from the engine block, and make sure your sensor ground is not tied to your engine ground and I bet she'll pick up the RPM signal cleanly.
That was the test they missed. They should have run the drill trigger with the sensor mounted on the block when the dampner was off. Sensor works when not grounded in their hand.
@ I’ve seen it many times in person. We actually had specs in the transportation industry for residual magnetism in machined parts used in electric traction motors, gear boxes and control equipment.
Engine has to be magnetized somehow. Take a compass and put it near the engine and see where north is. Bet it points to the engine all the time. Might need to degauss the engine. Sometimes happens to airplane engines when struck by lighting as in the prop get hits. Just my two cents.
I have seen this too. Many years ago had an engine eating rods and mains. The crank had a slight magnetism to it. It was holding some fillings in the the oil gap. Acting as a very fine sand paper.
Have come across this before, corrupted crankshaft position sensor signal during cranking. Lots of electrical noise during cranking. It was the starter motor. The mica had not been undercut properly between the commutator bars, and the brushes were arcing as they skipped off the mica
It’s good to see better men than me struggle with crazy problems forever just like I do. Thanks for posting this video Steve. I’ve lost countless hours and dollars in similar situations.
pretty sure he learns more if reading everything. but who has the time? especially when the majooority of comments are a total waste of time. but even sifting through the endless dung... u can simply not compare the amount of memory and knowledge capacity of one man vs x.
Not a dying breed. You just need to watch who you deal with. I run my business the same. If it's my fault then it's on me. Cant charge the customer for things out of the ordinary
Ford had an issue with starter motors a few years back. it put out a wave signal within electrical system that neutralized the crank sensors signal.. loving your work here be good to find problem.
I had the small wires on my BMW starter flip flopped. The exciter wire and the constant (small 14 gauge wires not the big power wires. ) It would start and run, but screwy. Cam/crank errors. Abs and traction control issues. Reverted to batch fire from sync errors.
One last stab… I know you car guys think in terms of “ground” but us audio guys also deal with “floating” signals that work off “deltas”. My guess here is that it may be possible that the sensor should NOT BE GROUNDED [only the shielding?? If any?]. and that if you ground one side of the sensor line you effectively dump the induced voltage change to ground meaning you get no pulse! In a floating situation the input channel would have 2 connections [and maybe even a 3rd which would be a shielding ground] almost exactly like we have in an [audio] XLR it’s called a Balanced input! Again a complete guess LOL
The thing everyone usually overlooks is EMI/EMF noise. (Prob not in this case). They should ALWAYS be using dual shielded cable for both pickup and ignition cables. Braided and aluminum foil wrap etc wire with an independent bare drain wire running through it. The drain wire needs to be grounded separately to catch any interference. In some cases a few 50 cent magnetic ferrites snapped on the cable will also be worth trying. They should also look into running Multi-Fire brand plug wires they are the a absolute best wire with the lowest resistance of any wire on the market. These wires are sooo good you cannot put a timing light on the car because the clamp will never pickup the spark signal. You literally need to use a junky MSD or moroso wire to time. It’s the best wire to insure your not getting noise from your plug wires.
I think Studio51media (and others) is on to something. (Former substation commissioning engineer here) In the field we had many 0-20 mA and 4-20 mA loops for analog signals. Also, there was a fair amount of SCADA equipment with DB9, RS232/485 stuff. Simple 2 and 3 wire mA loop cables and the DB9 cables were shielded. Often the signals were sensitive to proper cabling and shielding. Some (shields) grounded on one end, some the other and some both ends - depended on the equipment, manufacturer, situation etc. Good luck, I'm sure you've found it already but props to you for showing the failure and transparency...refreshing to see.
Well, I can't speak to car systems but ... with factory automation control systems, we required one ground point at the cabinet. A phrase I remember for a shielded cable, "ground the shield in the cabinet, open in the field". Meaning, when you have a shielded sensor or control signal "in the field", you leave the shield open and not grounded (except at the one point in the cabinet). When you have multiple grounds, you have "ground-loops" which gives different "ground references" and confuses the system.
Ground-loops was also what I was thinking. I've never used flying magnets as crank trigger, but most of the times I've seen noisy crank signals with other EFI systems it has had something to do with ground. Either a ground loop in the shielding or incorrect grounding of the shielding or the sensor.
The crank is still magnetically charged from the mag particle testing so it’s turning the whole balancer and wheel into a magnet so you aren’t ever getting a clean signal
Can't explain the why behind your issue, but to isolate the wheel from the crank without the rubber, you could use nylon flat washers between the crank and wheel and use fiberglass bolts to hold the two together. McMaster sells the bolts. We had a weird grounding issue at work one time with an on-vehicle EV charger and this is what fixed it. Good luck Steve, love your videos!!!
Hell just being a technician in general is rough when it comes to doing dings. 1 hour of diag to start on some sorta BS intermittent problem that will definitely send you down the rabbit hole.
I normally end up in a muddy field, a tree would be nice. My experiences working on vehicles in stupid places that are well beyond end of life have helped solve issues mates have in their nice shiny workshops.
@@buddybrown4903 I wondered the same thing but haven't made it through the whole video yet. I think it's a combo of the engine needing degaussed and the sensor grounding out on the bracket/block.
I found whenever something weird like this would happen. It always seems to be a ground issue. Make sure you have plenty of ground hooked to the ECU, starter and engine block to the dyno. Test to see if the crank trigger wire is getting power during crank. Some are 5 volt and some are 12 to the ECU. Double check there is no plating insulating the grounds. Unless I missed it one thing I didn’t see you do is hold the crank trigger without touching the block and crank it over. Then touch the crank trigger to the block and turn it over and see if you lose signal. That would seem to be a bad ground issue. Also a bad mechanical starter solenoid can cause that as well. Or not wiring a starter solenoid correctly. An old school starter solenoid will feed power to the ignition and starter but nothing else during crank if wired correctly. Not sure if your using one of those.
Your Such an Amazing Man and Business Owner for doing so much for your customers and taking losses like this and posting it!! Your absolutely priceless to this industry and sport We Love!!!
Clearly the magnetic pick up is shorted through its case. Hold the pick up in your hand while cranking (like you do when spinning the wheel with a drill) and I'll bet you get a signal.
Is the dyno starter creating some sort of interference/signal? Just thinking about what's different between the car and dyno. Can't wait to see the solution.
I'd say its your starter. When the starter engages with the fly wheel its creating a short or some sort of conductivity on the crack shaft to the balancer. But you when you spin it on its own with out the starter engaged it works. Just a thought.
Touch a ground wire directly from the battery to the crank, balancer or the reluctor wheel while cranking. I had this issue converting my LT1 Opti spark to a 24t LS1 ignition. I could not get a clean signal until I touched a ground wire to the Fluid Damper. After that proved a good signal, I isolated the wheel from the balancer using nylon spacers and that worked using a FAST controller. I switched to a 411 GM controller and had no further issues.
Steve... please, please keep doing these videos. (As long as you can afford to mentally and financially) im currently going thru a wiring demon, or something since hurricane Helen my ford van (witch is my home) has been undrivable. Water hit 24 ' high witch is 8' above my van.( normally 4') We had to get towed to high ground and then started fixing the demon. Im not a racer cant repay you for this kind of video or any kind of video to be honest. But 9 weeks in and still along side the river not running... i too am at a loss. Still along side the river bank.. Been thru everything I can afford.. $250- $300 in parts,$100 in towing that I just didn't have. Took this long to try and find any repeatable issue. Even with codes its been a FAIL. 1989 E350 5.8 134K on the clock. Super clean but also great boat anchor at this point. Still no light in or out of the tunnel. I know our worlds are to far apart to matter.... but damn I love to learn from someone who cares! THANK YOU, YOUR FAMILY/TEAM FOR CAREING. its not only customers or deep pocket racers that watch you! GOD BLESS YOU AND YOURS OVER THE HOLIDAYS & LIFE.
@dannymccraw4841 I have replaced the following after texting with scanner danner on youtube, reading codes, and doing own research. Tps, both coolant sensors, map sensor, distibutor module, plugs, wires, and cleaned cap and rotor. Been a fight becouse all codes coming in are the parts ive already bought and then replaced under warranty twice over. All thats left are the computer with possible bad leaking diodes, or the pic up in distributor. Your thoughts? Symptoms are... starts ok, but them as it warms up it has a heavy electrical shunt(miss) that eventually makes it die. Last codes was again faulty tps under 4.6 v then another one i hadn't seen yet. Eps or something. May do with egr?( was aggravated didn't pay much attention and quite for the day)
@@nodotoroam anytime a vehicle is flooded it’s a nightmare, but I’d have absolutely replaced all computers first( I’d have replaced all electrical censors and computer) The board and components can be compromised as such you can get false codes , ghost codes because of water damage. At least get an ecm and see if most of your codes go away. Then if so get the bcm for body controls to function properly hopefully anyway, window regulators could be ok for a while ect.
@@dannymccraw4841 this van never seen floods.. 100% not flood. We had it towed to higher groung before the storm. We just couldn't get it to start to move it. After towed to higher ground I started on the issue. Replaced the distibutor module that got it to start. However it was low on power missing and didn't seem to run well after warm. I had already did plugs wires and cap for i was there and it needed them for maintenance also replaced temp gauge sensor for it not working. Then found bad wire so that was money gone but thankfull for it was fixed. So was never wet other then rain.everthing on van works.. power locks windows everthing.. just not running well. Again never seen more then a puddle. Not flood.sorry for confution.
Man that is weird, starts in the car, starts with the engine isolated but not on the Dyno, I have to say you tried everything you could. I'm sure there is something valuable to learn in the end though so thanks for sharing Steve!
I think it's the sensor that's picking up some interference while bolted to its metal bracket to the engine. Reason for my conclusion... When you took off the trigger wheel to test it, you also took off the sensor. You made 2 changes. You should only make one change at a time. Did you test by leaving the trigger wheel on the engine and hold the sensor near it? Great video 👌
The test that would have confirmed the problem is cranking the engine, while simulating the signal with a drill. That would point to starter or coils potentially intrpducing noise? Maybe the coils are not grounded properly? Or heads?
I had a starter short to ground internally. Once the car started it ran terrible and hardly even idled, but was undrivable. after some time, luckily the starter died, and so i put a new starter in and bam all was well and the car was back. Immediately i checked the starter and the positive terminal on the starter was grounding out to the starter case. Im so glad the starter ultimately died. I was swapping everything with old stuff laying around, tps, mass air etc and nothing, drove me nuts.
STEVE- the issue is a small electrical current (like a possible injector or distributor short) that's affecting your magnetic pickup but isn't measurable on a scope. Wrap a piece of masking tape around the balance wheel and start that beast. This can help you observe inconsistencies in timing or pickup signals. Pay particular attention to wires and connections around the injectors and distributor. This method might help isolate the issue and is a good old-school mechanic's trick! Good luck hunting down that elusive electrical gremlin-hope it earns me a free T-shirt LOL
Better get that Ford out of there before contaminates everything just kidding put a couple carburetors on top of that damn thing a regular distributor and a little ignition box and hit the key
wondering if it's possible the ECU got swapped? vs dyno as the car might have one working and steve's has a bad-cap/bio software, not a programmer millwright&automotive shop repairs/other in it, and yes vs cap/rotor and or carbs repairs/R&R this is a super rare-failure mode-pathways but does happen and rob-dom/RX7-RUclips channel/racing-llc had 3~by now go-out and or weird wiring-failure's so that's one more resource for morris-engineering to talk to had a ( fixing was around 2009~era ) Chrysler convertible 2006~ 2.7-V6 auto with similarly problematic but the owners decided to scrapping it so it never got fixed and it was minty other than it wouldn't stay-running/starting-consistently
You need some magnetic paper /sheets. It is green and when placed on something magnetic it shows the fields. Amazing tool to have. It's like having xray vision in magnetic fields.
You are the man who has done thousands of motors and you know your tools and shop and we all know you hate to lose or should I say not be able to fix something I was a millrite for 32 years a couple of times it was jist that way
Theory: The ecu and battery are not grounded to the block properly. When you mount the sensor, one leg of the sensor is grounded to the block. You have noise transmitted on one of the line to the sensor.
@@kontakt4321 but the sensor head isn't grounded to the engine when they're holding it by hand. Run a strap from engine to pickup, run drill and crank engine.
The wiring harness is the only part different in the car vs the dyno. I would run an external twisted pair wire harness to the pick up sensor. The wire twist is critical to keep out noise. Keep the whole wire run away from any dyno wiring for a test. If you had a scope directly connected to the pick up wire you would figure this out fast.
Btw, engines don't use earth ground. That's a ground for your shop's AC power. The ONLY ground you want in your 12V or 16V systems is the battery ground. Should be a completely closed system.
EE student here, with this things its really hard to say something meaningful without being present because with Electronics its the little details that kill you. Having said that, it seemed that whatever it was it had to do with the blocks connection to ground, as if you notice every time it worked it wasn't mounted to the block. btw isolating the magnet side wouldn't ever change anything as a voltage / connection on the wheel doesn't affect the magnet's fields which is what the sensor picks up. Btw a son of a small business i also seen these frustrating days when we just have to "swallow some frogs" as we say here in Portugal but its the right thing to do. Thanks for what you do Always great to see someone doing right for his fellow men.
I had something similar happen to my BMW. I had the switched 12 volt and the full 12 volt signals to the starter relay backwards. (Two small 14? gauge wires, not the big power wires) Car would start and run fine, but it had screwy gremlins and ghost codes. (Reverted to batch fire due to sync errors) I believe one is the "exciter wire" and the other small wire is the 12volt. They were flip flopped.
Hi steve. I'm a plumbing contractor so I clearly understand when things go south and you're spending hours fixing something the money you lose maybe something was magnetized causing some different polarity. Ironically I was messing with magnets over Thanksgiving and noticed some weird stuff that I've never known before
Many years ago I was working at a Firestone store. Had a car towed in that was hard to startup, Fran rough and got pathetic fuel mileage. This was a carburetor engine with electronic ignition. Customer had his car at his cottage and would not start. Local garage found it had defective pickup coil so they replaced it and sent customer back to Toronto with it. After 300km and two tanks of fuel the car was very hard to start, ran rough and got very poor fuel mileage so he had it towed in the last 200km. Firestome back then had Allen Smart Scopes in all company owned stores. I connected the scope and started the engine. First thing it showed me was 14 cylinders firing. I have always taken the attitude that whatever is wrong will so basic and simple the I don't bother wasting time by using the "by guess, by golly" method of diagnosis. I looked at the 14 cylinders appearing on the scope and figured that must be 8 cylinders and 6 cylinders somehow combined. Since the spacings were the same distance apart whoever changed the pickup coil must have put the pickup coil from a 90 degree Chevy V6. I took the cap off and sure enough it had the V6 pickup coil along with the v8 reluctlr. Changed it back to correct parts and everything returned to normal. I spent less than an hour on that car and explained that I had never seen or heard of that even happening. Customer complained to Firestone that since I had never seen that before I must be a poor/inexperidnced mechanic that obviously didn't know what I was doing by not scamming him. Firestone refunded him his entire invoice,. 0.75 hrs labour plus retail cost of Echlin pickup coil. Point is start at the very basics. I would have gone through install./zetjp guide for the Ford paying attention to the difference between gm and Ford. Your solution will be simple.
this is the reason i changed my profesion when they started with computers in the automotive industry..!...the fact that he has a signal & it runs in the car...means it has to be the differance in how its instaled to the dyno..?..thats the only thing thats changing..!....its a running motor in the car...!...this cant b over look'd..!...u r a stand up dude Steve...try'n all u did 4 the customer...!..i hope he stays a customer..thats the least he can do..!..great video..follow up will b better..!
Random question, was it the same starter? Idk if it can induce strong magnetic fields in the crank but it would be interesting. It's so weird at work off the engine Thanks for this video showing what can go wrong! Super helpful for a guy to learn.
When the engine was suspended in the air the customer said 'this is the same as in the dyno', well not quite as in SM's shop it was hooked up to the dyno shaft every test. Good video as always!!
Steve thanks so much for sharing situations like this with your viewers. I hope you find out exactly what happened. Here’s my guess, it has to have something to do with the sensor picking up noise when bolted to the motor. What’s crazy is it worked when your customer put it back in the car even when not touching the chassis. Maybe an issue with the starter motor?
Non resistor plugs/ plug wires can cause enough noise in the pickup wiring to screw up the ECM. Not sure if you have the ignition when you are cranking, but it's a quick check to shut the ignition off and try cranking while watching the signal on a scope. Good luck!
Assuming that you have the sensor connected through the loom to the ECU as normal: 1. What happens if you mount the sensor on the engine and spin your drill-mounted wheel in front of it? 2. If that still works, fit the trigger wheel to the damper and bar the engine over by hand (maybe connecting an oscilloscope to the sensor output to see the signal) 3. If that still works use your scope to check the voltage droop of your 12v supply during cranking. 4. If 12v is ok, you have some kind of interference issue. Connect all sensor wires to separate channels in your scope. If scope isn't mains-powered connect the ground side of the scope probes to a good true earth point. This should show up the interference, if that's the issue. I've seen big shifts of grounds on engine dynos caused by faulty high-current components (starters, grid heaters, etc) feeding battery voltage into the engine block - this is impossible to diagnose if you don't do the test in this step. Excessive arcing in the starter motor can be quite common too. Bear in mind: - If you've done the grounding correctly in your dyno room, you should have earth spikes connected to the rebar in the floor of your dyno room and then a cable from the rebar up into the room itself. - The sensor ground will normally connect back to dedicated sensor ground pins on the ECU that are filtered from main battery ground to pretect from noise. The sensor itself shouldn't normally be connected to the engine block or battery ground. - Be careful connecting mains-powered scopes to your ECU system when you DON'T want and earth-referenced measurement . Presuming you have an earth terminal in your mains sockets, the ground clip on the probes will be connected to this mains earth connection. A battery scope, such as a Picoscope, is your friend here. - An A/C dyno is your friend for this kind of work. Although expensive, they make initial debugging of crank/cam sensors, injector and ignition timing before firing really simple since you can spin the engine at whatever speed you like for as long as you like without combustion.
@@Kevin_Ruz i wish i had a good one. Your guess is as good as any ive read in here. I was just wondering what could be so different in their shop from SM shop and dyno. Its a weird issue that i bet they will figure out, i hope.
@@Kevin_Ruz Okay before I watch the rest of the video. I work a lot with magnetism so this is curious. One something is magnetized or two an electrical current is forming a electromagnet which will it be.
@@warrenmichael918 yep I agree. Only other thing can think of, something in the shop causing interference with the sensor, backfeeding in though the dyno. At work, I can see it on my automated UT machines that aren't on filtered power. With erounious signals passing through the ac lines from other equipment
I'm a retired master mech and tv repair. I belive you have a magnetized crank!! You need a old tv mans deguassing coil to move around the front of the engine. In 1980 i worked at a ford dealer and attended their schools in Lansing Mi. About a month after i reopned my own shop I got a call from Ford Execs that an Lincoln had been near a lightning strike and the electronic ignition and compass wouldn't work they brought it to me on a lowboy and I deguassed the WHOLE CAR on jackstands and it worked on everything!! The one thing in common was your crank--- It may not have happened in a IRON BLOCK!
Hey Steve, there's a company i deal with called Mo Glide. They're great people, military family. He was a fluid engineer for the military. There's some videos out there of how the stuff works. But it basically de-magnetizes the engine components. It's also works on engine harmonics. It's really cool stuff. The other name for it is NMF. No More Friction
I worked on the Honda Valkyrie quite a bit, occasionally I would run into wheels that would not throw a proper signal on blower equipped engines, I diagnosed this with a Fluke meter and the hall effect test. As SWAG, isolate the wheel from the balancer/engine with a Delrin spacer using nonferrous mounting bolts.
Quick test: see if you have electrical current running between the tone wheel and the block. If it's transient magnetism, it may be an electromagnet effect interfering. (Ah, at 30 mins in you did. Hmmm.)
I would think that the starter or alternator is intermittently shorting. That or the current path for it may be going down the crank. This allows enough current to flow down its length then return down the block(5-10of the hundred amps pulled)for the crank to pulse and screws with the pickup. The cam being in the middle of the block is effectively in a faraday cage and doesn’t get the same interference. When you tested spinning it separately you were positioned in such a way that the effective field lines produced were perpendicular to the sensor and were less susceptible to interference. In the car the front and rear engine plates route the current through the frame and it doesn’t appear.
My thought - watching the engine crank in the car, noticed that the negative battery cable appeared to be grounded to the motor plate right next to the starter - so starting current was not flowing through the block. If your dyno negative cable was grounded elsewhere then current could flow through the block and/or accessory brackets, etc. creating a stray magnetic field - but only when the starter was drawing current! When you spin the tone wheel with a drill the starter is not drawing any current and would not be creating the field. Suggestion: Tape the positive and negative battery cables together from the battery and connect both directly to the starter. This eliminates any current loops that could create a stray magnetic field. Also: retry your "drill test" as the engine is spun over using the starter (theoretically re-creating the stray magnetic fields). Cheers from Dan in Phoenix!
@Steve Morris Engines ^This is most likely your problem, the starter current is flowing through the block and or crank. Place the engine ground on the starter bolt so the current flows directly from the positive post through the starter windings back to battery ground.
Steve - to add to my first comment - as you know, the starter current peaks then dips as each cylinder reaches TDC on compression. the resulting stray magnetic fields would pulse in a similar fashion. If this is what's happening the timed stray pulses would really confuse the ECU!
Hey Steve I spend all my days diagnosing weird issues like this and my oscilloscope is my most favorite tool… I will say that whenever I run into this type of issue it ends up being something with the sensor to trigger wheel gap. Even a distance change as small as the thickness of cereal box cardboard will be the difference of the ecm being able to utilize the data correctly in the processing or not. Was very common on old jeep 4.0l where the reluctor is built into the flex plate, after ppl would swap trans and get rowdy with stabbing the new in the flex plate would be ever slightly bent and the voltage would not go quite far enough past threshold intermittently for the ecm to see this as a High low or a low high change and sliding a piece of cereal box cardboard between the sensor and the bell housing (where they bolt on) would be enough added gap to allow the signal to cross over the upper and lower voltage thresholds (remember computers can only truly see in binary switches either a 1 or a 0). Too much gap is also just as problematic as too little gap and its the inconsistency that makes the ecm spit the data aside and stop the processing calculation of rpm data. Feel free to send me a ckp scope waveform to analyze I can usually tell ya what is happening and which way ya need to go or help theorize what is going on
Try removing the magnetic wheel and leave the sensor in place and spin the motor. read the oscilloscope program. That will show you if you have any magnetic readings coming from the crank or balancer if you see any noise in the scope you have residuals magnetism in the system
My thoughts exactly. Also they didn't isolate the sensor (could have made a plastic or non conductive mount, it would have ran but not the answer.. Also He mentioned a earth ground connected to the battery ground? I don't see the need or completely understand. Could be related.
Dyno starter motor is throwing ground ripple into the block or the crankshaft through the flexplate. When the crank is spinning it IS NOT grounded because of the bearings oil film. Isolate the reluctor wheel from the balancer and shield the crank pickup wiring.
He tried that. Didn't work. I suspect the sensor wiring or grounds in general are not what is expected, especially considering it's not his own harness. And it worked fine before and after this fiasco in customers car.
In typical circuit analysis, an opto-isolator circuit can short closed and appear normal in all aspects until you try to operate it. An opto-isolator is a tiny circuit that translates a signal via a light beam, this allows a usable signal that is unaffected by other grounding issues with any other components.
If you havent got it going. I read alot of the comments and they all give great ideas. I had a similar issue long ago with holley efi. I run a flywheel trigger and resolved the dirty signal. Which come down to much rotating magnetised metal in a small area. Hope you get that Ford sparked up.
@@jeffreydurham5342 I did not hear that until end of video. Doesn't mean I am wrong. New sensors can even be bad. But it was proven in his video when sensor was held they had signal. The only other variable is they were not using starter circuit. So the issue could of been while cranking interrupting signal. Be it voltage drop or possibly alternator a/c noise introduced while cranking. Having a oscilloscope on wires would of told a lot. When the car was at home shop a different starting system was probably used. I believe Steve's dyno provides starter most of time at his shop.
@@rcsnowball several sensors shorted to housing? I think you are wrong, I have no "proof" but he showed more than one would work as long as it wasn't on the engine.
Clearly the crankshaft was manufactured with a combination of metals including expensium and unobtaium. And some dingbat for some reason did a standard magma flux test. However they forgot that this vehicle will require a flux capacitor. Which would have neutralized the magnetic quandary that they accidentally created. Seems like a no brainer to me. Especially since they are clearly trying to build a space time disrupter like you have.
I think a lot of people are wrongly looking at the engine for a hardware fault here. Not only did you troubleshoot all hardware (harness, sensors, pickup wheels etc.) and electrical systems related to them, the end of the video proves the hardware all works fine and the engine runs. Even if the engine had a magnetized crank from rebuild it still ran. At this point the only major variable is the location. It sounds like a magnetic field in the dyno/ dyno rooms that’s tripping the pickup sensor. And the rotating mass of the engine is just amplifying it. You moved the engine to a 2nd dyno room but it’s hard to tell if you actually hooked the engine up to the dyno shaft. If those dynos are on the same electrical grid they may have some sort of current that’s built an magnetic field in the dyno itself, and being on the same power grid means they both have it. Cutting power and disconnecting everything doesn’t necessarily disperse magnetic fields. I would’ve tried to have the engine completely detached from the dyno and maybe even isolated from the cart its on. Attempt crank and if still no clean signal maybe move it to another part of the shop with a battery just to crank it. All this said, if you stick another engine on the dyno with the same fuel tech system on it and it does start then I have no idea.
Eddy Current Dynamometers: These use strong magnetic fields to create load, which can indeed interfere with sensors if not properly shielded or if there's an issue with the dyno's operation. AC Dynamometers: Although less common, they can also produce significant magnetic fields, especially during operation. Electric Motors: Cooling Fans: Large fans used for ventilation might have electric motors that produce magnetic fields. Other Equipment: Any large or small motors for equipment like air compressors or automated systems can emit magnetic fields. HVAC Systems: Air Conditioning Units: These often contain motors and compressors that can generate magnetic fields, especially if they're close to the dyno setup. Welding Equipment: If there's welding done in or near the dyno room, the magnetic fields from welders can be quite strong, though this would be more intermittent. Power Tools: Electric tools used for maintenance or setup could contribute, particularly if they're in use or left running near the dyno. Electrical Wiring: High Current Lines: Heavy electrical wiring for the dyno or other high-power equipment can create magnetic fields if not properly routed or shielded. Power Transformers: If there are transformers in or near the room for power distribution, they can be significant sources of magnetic interference. Electronics and Control Systems: Dyno Control Panels: The electronics used to control the dynamometer and data acquisition systems can emit fields, especially if there's poor shielding or grounding. Lighting: Fluorescent or HID Lights: Certain types of lighting can produce electromagnetic interference, especially if they're old or faulty
I feel your frustration. I've been making my living in the automotive repair, building, performance, ect for 40years or so. Some shit just refuses to fix! Why?? It's only luckily been on a few occasions but remember them well and still bugs me. Thanks for bringing back those memories. Lol. Good luck. I have no Flippin idea what is where your gremlin is. But he's there.
After watching the entire video, have you tried the drill method while running the starter? series wired starter motors make a ton of electrical noise. see my other post. the starter seems to be the one constant.
He did try that. Didn't start the engine and then engage the wheel. Not sure if that's the problem though. If it was, the beginning signal might be lost only if the starter is running, but if the signal is being received, it doesn't interrupt it?
I noticed you all focused a lot on the wheel and its grounding. Did you all try isolating the pick-up sensor? For example, can you find a way to rubberize the sensor mount so it can't ground out? I do feel it's a grounding issue or as you all said, some kind of sensor interference. Did you try mounting the wheel on the engine and try holding the sensor in your hand? If that worked, it would let you know it's the sensor grounding
Just remember that your 12v system must create a loop. From the positive post back to the negative. ECU grounded back to the same 12v source. The sensors must use the measured ecu ground. Try disconnecting the dyno earth ground. Try running a ground wire directly from the start case to the 12v source. I have had non grounded starters continue to run after cranking on my old BBF trucks. (It’s been so long I can’t remember to give a detailed description of how and why)
I agree there's residual magnetism somewhere in the crank or the block. I would put a rubber dampener between a crank wheel and the balancer I would also try to put a brass liner in there on the crank timing sensor itself to see if you can limit any feedback or magnetism
If you've recently performed a magnetic particle inspection (magnaflux) of the crankshaft and it wasn't degaussed (demagnetized), the crank could be slightly magnetised. This magnetism could be transferring to the wheels you have tried. Try placing a non-conducting insulating material (a gasket, teflon, etc) between the wheel and crank balancer.
The mount for the sensor could be magnetized. If the holder acts as a magnet the sensor will not see anything else. If you hold the sensor by hand, the mount is not in play. Did you change the sensor mount? Also, if you have a steel/iron sensor mount, it cannot hold the sensor too close to the sensing end, this can also block the magnet signal.
I just want to tell you that i thank you are one of the best engine builders alive i do small engine stuff it is not hard to go fast a few times hard to make a engine drive and go fast
remove all pins from ecm connectors Except crank Signal and test it. If its clean signal hook up a sensor at a time and injectors and so on until the signal is dirty. on a side note i believe you are on the right track looking for an EMF issue. In my opinion its trying to draw current threw the sensor or mount body. also you can use more than 5v to the hall effect sensor, try 7v then 9v. even 12v if the ecm allows and or has a pullup resistor to sensor. Same logic applies to a VR sensor. but with the hall effect sensor yo can use a Low Dropout Regulator if needed with the added voltage input to the hall effect senor, the LDOR will clean up the signal at various voltages to give you a useable output.
That's exactly what I would have done as well... Unpin everything from the ecm side and start there. To start with though I would have prob swapped cam sensor wiring and crank signal in the ecm and tested.. then if that failed unpin everything.
While running 2 stroke outboards we attempted to get rid of the stator and use a 7AL2 box . We mounted a crank trigger using the stock flywheel and everything worked perfectly up until we got the RPM up about 3800. Then it ran like crap. Traced it back to the spinning magnet in the stock flywheel. Removed the stator magnet and ran like a banshee. Sounds like a similar situation. Something is creating a magnetic field interrupting your pickup.
As an electrical engineer...
I'm pretty confidant that when you mount the sensor to the block, you're getting a ground lift.
That is to say, they did something silly and grounded the case of the sensor to the sensor ground. Sensor ground should ALWAYS bet separate from your engine ground. Something is likely leaking current into your engine ground and the metal case of the sensor is then connecting to your motor ground and the current is enough to lift the sensor ground, thus the voltage delta seen from no magnet to magnet there is not enough to be seen by the detector circuit all the time, and you get intermittent readings.
Isolate the metal case of the sensor from the engine block, and make sure your sensor ground is not tied to your engine ground and I bet she'll pick up the RPM signal cleanly.
That's what I think. Something related to the ground and the harness.
But they replaced the harness sensors and ECU
That was the test they missed. They should have run the drill trigger with the sensor mounted on the block when the dampner was off. Sensor works when not grounded in their hand.
When he’s checking continuity on the sensor you can see the wires running parallel. Those should be a twisted pair or you can get back emf, yeah?
How do you get Steve to pin this comment? This is 100% correct.
Residual magnetism from the mfg process on the crank or the balancer . You can check it with a gauss meter.
That was exactly my thought some kind of magnetism in the crank
This. Probably from what they magafluxed the crank. They didnt run it through the demag process properly.
@ I’ve seen it many times in person. We actually had specs in the transportation industry for residual magnetism in machined parts used in electric traction motors, gear boxes and control equipment.
But that doesn’t explain why it works in the car ?
@ maybe the steel frame was dampening the magnetism that is a good question
Engine has to be magnetized somehow. Take a compass and put it near the engine and see where north is. Bet it points to the engine all the time. Might need to degauss the engine. Sometimes happens to airplane engines when struck by lighting as in the prop get hits. Just my two cents.
Have you changed the sensor at the crank ?
Engine is becoming a magnet 🧲when you go to start
100% agree
I have seen this too. Many years ago had an engine eating rods and mains. The crank had a slight magnetism to it. It was holding some fillings in the the oil gap. Acting as a very fine sand paper.
ive never heard of this
Have come across this before, corrupted crankshaft position sensor signal during cranking. Lots of electrical noise during cranking. It was the starter motor. The mica had not been undercut properly between the commutator bars, and the brushes were arcing as they skipped off the mica
This is my thought too, giant rotation magnetic field in the starter.
Thats a good guess as well!
That’s exactly what my guess was
Came here to say the starter
@@JDBoudreaux616 and they just put a new starter on that dyno a couple videos ago.
As a Australian . My guess i the watchamacalit interfering with the thingamajig 😳
Na, it's the thingymabob!
wobble pin fell out of the wiggle joint while the muffler bearings rusted
We have never had problems with the thingamajig I the US lol
its the only logical answer!
No, it's the flux capacitor.
It’s good to see better men than me struggle with crazy problems forever just like I do. Thanks for posting this video Steve. I’ve lost countless hours and dollars in similar situations.
I think Steve learns as much from the comments as we do the videos so that’s awesome
Just isolate the magnet itself not the whole wheel
pretty sure he learns more if reading everything. but who has the time? especially when the majooority of comments are a total waste of time. but even sifting through the endless dung... u can simply not compare the amount of memory and knowledge capacity of one man vs x.
Damn. You split costs with them ?? You’re a good business man and stand by your work. A dying breed
Not a dying breed. You just need to watch who you deal with. I run my business the same. If it's my fault then it's on me. Cant charge the customer for things out of the ordinary
@ I’m also a solo business owner, also The same way. But there are way too many shady businesses that lack that integrity
My business mission statement: “Nobody gets paid, until everyone’s happy!” 🙂
Split the cost? I think he said he was gunna eat the 1.5 days since he didn’t get it dynoed
@ yeah. But he said originally he split the costs on the repair and dyno
Ford had an issue with starter motors a few years back. it put out a wave signal within electrical system that neutralized the crank sensors signal.. loving your work here be good to find problem.
I had the small wires on my BMW starter flip flopped. The exciter wire and the constant (small 14 gauge wires not the big power wires. ) It would start and run, but screwy. Cam/crank errors. Abs and traction control issues. Reverted to batch fire from sync errors.
I can't imagine a stock type Ford starter on a thumper like that.
23:00 heat shrink the shank of the bolt next time for testing purposes. Quick and easy.
I was thinking a quick wrap of electrical tape.
Or use nylon bolts.
One last stab… I know you car guys think in terms of “ground” but us audio guys also deal with “floating” signals that work off “deltas”. My guess here is that it may be possible that the sensor should NOT BE GROUNDED [only the shielding?? If any?]. and that if you ground one side of the sensor line you effectively dump the induced voltage change to ground meaning you get no pulse! In a floating situation the input channel would have 2 connections [and maybe even a 3rd which would be a shielding ground] almost exactly like we have in an [audio] XLR it’s called a Balanced input! Again a complete guess LOL
The thing everyone usually overlooks is EMI/EMF noise. (Prob not in this case). They should ALWAYS be using dual shielded cable for both pickup and ignition cables. Braided and aluminum foil wrap etc wire with an independent bare drain wire running through it. The drain wire needs to be grounded separately to catch any interference. In some cases a few 50 cent magnetic ferrites snapped on the cable will also be worth trying. They should also look into running Multi-Fire brand plug wires they are the a absolute best wire with the lowest resistance of any wire on the market. These wires are sooo good you cannot put a timing light on the car because the clamp will never pickup the spark signal. You literally need to use a junky MSD or moroso wire to time. It’s the best wire to insure your not getting noise from your plug wires.
I agree dame good guess
The common line of the sensor is probably tied to the case. They have the common and + swapped.
Ground loop BS can't stand it.
I think Studio51media (and others) is on to something. (Former substation commissioning engineer here) In the field we had many 0-20 mA and 4-20 mA loops for analog signals. Also, there was a fair amount of SCADA equipment with DB9, RS232/485 stuff. Simple 2 and 3 wire mA loop cables and the DB9 cables were shielded. Often the signals were sensitive to proper cabling and shielding. Some (shields) grounded on one end, some the other and some both ends - depended on the equipment, manufacturer, situation etc. Good luck, I'm sure you've found it already but props to you for showing the failure and transparency...refreshing to see.
Maybe reversing leads on the sensor so ground could be in ground. They might have their cable reversed compared to the one on the Dino
We can only hope it is that cheap and simple!
Well, I can't speak to car systems but ... with factory automation control systems, we required one ground point at the cabinet. A phrase I remember for a shielded cable, "ground the shield in the cabinet, open in the field". Meaning, when you have a shielded sensor or control signal "in the field", you leave the shield open and not grounded (except at the one point in the cabinet). When you have multiple grounds, you have "ground-loops" which gives different "ground references" and confuses the system.
With both ends of the shield grounded, you've created a Faraday antenna
Yeah I’ve been there wiring ab vfds
Ground-loops was also what I was thinking.
I've never used flying magnets as crank trigger, but most of the times I've seen noisy crank signals with other EFI systems it has had something to do with ground.
Either a ground loop in the shielding or incorrect grounding of the shielding or the sensor.
Yeah I have had to unhook the shield on one end of a cable several times…
Magnetized crankshaft?
The crank is still magnetically charged from the mag particle testing so it’s turning the whole balancer and wheel into a magnet so you aren’t ever getting a clean signal
Can't explain the why behind your issue, but to isolate the wheel from the crank without the rubber, you could use nylon flat washers between the crank and wheel and use fiberglass bolts to hold the two together. McMaster sells the bolts.
We had a weird grounding issue at work one time with an on-vehicle EV charger and this is what fixed it. Good luck Steve, love your videos!!!
First it was the Big Black Hemi, and now weird Ford issues. Well, you're the right man for the job Steve.
If Steve can't do it, just imagine how we shade tree mechanics suffer. Always SOMETHING
Hell just being a technician in general is rough when it comes to doing dings. 1 hour of diag to start on some sorta BS intermittent problem that will definitely send you down the rabbit hole.
Shadetree Mechanic😂😂😂😂😂. What you mean is parts replacer.
Yea, I was thinking the same thing. I’d be pulling my hair out.
@@AnarchyRacing306lots of fun chasing a 2 cent problem costing thousands every hour the machine is down 😖
I normally end up in a muddy field, a tree would be nice.
My experiences working on vehicles in stupid places that are well beyond end of life have helped solve issues mates have in their nice shiny workshops.
Ground the sensor to the engine and try the drill thing again.
@@buddybrown4903 I wondered the same thing but haven't made it through the whole video yet. I think it's a combo of the engine needing degaussed and the sensor grounding out on the bracket/block.
I found whenever something weird like this would happen. It always seems to be a ground issue. Make sure you have plenty of ground hooked to the ECU, starter and engine block to the dyno. Test to see if the crank trigger wire is getting power during crank. Some are 5 volt and some are 12 to the ECU. Double check there is no plating insulating the grounds. Unless I missed it one thing I didn’t see you do is hold the crank trigger without touching the block and crank it over. Then touch the crank trigger to the block and turn it over and see if you lose signal. That would seem to be a bad ground issue. Also a bad mechanical starter solenoid can cause that as well. Or not wiring a starter solenoid correctly. An old school starter solenoid will feed power to the ignition and starter but nothing else during crank if wired correctly. Not sure if your using one of those.
Your Such an Amazing Man and Business Owner for doing so much for your customers and taking losses like this and posting it!! Your absolutely priceless to this industry and sport We Love!!!
Clearly the magnetic pick up is shorted through its case. Hold the pick up in your hand while cranking (like you do when spinning the wheel with a drill) and I'll bet you get a signal.
Yeah clearly! Idiot. Man! Why dont you guys just stop thinking and listen to this guy. Cause, CLEAELY thats the issue. There. Fixed.
That was my guess, yes
I thought they'd tried a few different sensors though?
He did that and no signal
Or it could be the firmware difference in ECUs or maybe the type of pickup that it’s registered in ecu
Whole crank sounds like it's magnetized
I was reading throught the coments to make sure someone didnt already suguest this!
Is the dyno starter creating some sort of interference/signal? Just thinking about what's different between the car and dyno. Can't wait to see the solution.
he cracked the engine while spinning the wheel with the drill confirming it want the starter.
it is not the trigger wheel that is being interfered with, but the sensor itself is what is picking up the interference.
I'd say its your starter. When the starter engages with the fly wheel its creating a short or some sort of conductivity on the crack shaft to the balancer. But you when you spin it on its own with out the starter engaged it works. Just a thought.
Touch a ground wire directly from the battery to the crank, balancer or the reluctor wheel while cranking. I had this issue converting my LT1 Opti spark to a 24t LS1 ignition. I could not get a clean signal until I touched a ground wire to the Fluid Damper. After that proved a good signal, I isolated the wheel from the balancer using nylon spacers and that worked using a FAST controller. I switched to a 411 GM controller and had no further issues.
Place or hold a compass close & centered to the crank bolt & hit the starter….see if the compass pointer deflects with the crank turning
Steve... please, please keep doing these videos. (As long as you can afford to mentally and financially) im currently going thru a wiring demon, or something since hurricane Helen my ford van (witch is my home) has been undrivable. Water hit 24 ' high witch is 8' above my van.( normally 4') We had to get towed to high ground and then started fixing the demon. Im not a racer cant repay you for this kind of video or any kind of video to be honest. But 9 weeks in and still along side the river not running... i too am at a loss. Still along side the river bank.. Been thru everything I can afford.. $250- $300 in parts,$100 in towing that I just didn't have. Took this long to try and find any repeatable issue. Even with codes its been a FAIL. 1989 E350 5.8 134K on the clock. Super clean but also great boat anchor at this point. Still no light in or out of the tunnel. I know our worlds are to far apart to matter.... but damn I love to learn from someone who cares! THANK YOU, YOUR FAMILY/TEAM FOR CAREING. its not only customers or deep pocket racers that watch you! GOD BLESS YOU AND YOURS OVER THE HOLIDAYS & LIFE.
Have you replaced all computers? Ecm, bcm ect?
@dannymccraw4841 I have replaced the following after texting with scanner danner on youtube, reading codes, and doing own research. Tps, both coolant sensors, map sensor, distibutor module, plugs, wires, and cleaned cap and rotor. Been a fight becouse all codes coming in are the parts ive already bought and then replaced under warranty twice over. All thats left are the computer with possible bad leaking diodes, or the pic up in distributor. Your thoughts? Symptoms are... starts ok, but them as it warms up it has a heavy electrical shunt(miss) that eventually makes it die. Last codes was again faulty tps under 4.6 v then another one i hadn't seen yet. Eps or something. May do with egr?( was aggravated didn't pay much attention and quite for the day)
I did set tps voltage when installed.. drilled out to make it read correctly.
@@nodotoroam anytime a vehicle is flooded it’s a nightmare, but I’d have absolutely replaced all computers first( I’d have replaced all electrical censors and computer)
The board and components can be compromised as such you can get false codes , ghost codes because of water damage. At least get an ecm and see if most of your codes go away. Then if so get the bcm for body controls to function properly hopefully anyway, window regulators could be ok for a while ect.
@@dannymccraw4841 this van never seen floods.. 100% not flood. We had it towed to higher groung before the storm. We just couldn't get it to start to move it. After towed to higher ground I started on the issue. Replaced the distibutor module that got it to start. However it was low on power missing and didn't seem to run well after warm. I had already did plugs wires and cap for i was there and it needed them for maintenance also replaced temp gauge sensor for it not working. Then found bad wire so that was money gone but thankfull for it was fixed. So was never wet other then rain.everthing on van works.. power locks windows everthing.. just not running well. Again never seen more then a puddle. Not flood.sorry for confution.
Man that is weird, starts in the car, starts with the engine isolated but not on the Dyno, I have to say you tried everything you could. I'm sure there is something valuable to learn in the end though so thanks for sharing Steve!
I think it's the sensor that's picking up some interference while bolted to its metal bracket to the engine.
Reason for my conclusion...
When you took off the trigger wheel to test it, you also took off the sensor. You made 2 changes. You should only make one change at a time.
Did you test by leaving the trigger wheel on the engine and hold the sensor near it?
Great video 👌
The test that would have confirmed the problem is cranking the engine, while simulating the signal with a drill.
That would point to starter or coils potentially intrpducing noise?
Maybe the coils are not grounded properly?
Or heads?
I had a starter short to ground internally. Once the car started it ran terrible and hardly even idled, but was undrivable. after some time, luckily the starter died, and so i put a new starter in and bam all was well and the car was back. Immediately i checked the starter and the positive terminal on the starter was grounding out to the starter case. Im so glad the starter ultimately died. I was swapping everything with old stuff laying around, tps, mass air etc and nothing, drove me nuts.
Is the crank magnetized?
I was thinking the same thing.
@@tiredofit1235 also thinking that
Lots of us have the same thoughts 😝😝😝😝! Except it ran in the car 🤷🤷🤷🤷?
I agree
I agree also. It almost has to be.
STEVE- the issue is a small electrical current (like a possible injector or distributor short) that's affecting your magnetic pickup but isn't measurable on a scope. Wrap a piece of masking tape around the balance wheel and start that beast. This can help you observe inconsistencies in timing or pickup signals. Pay particular attention to wires and connections around the injectors and distributor. This method might help isolate the issue and is a good old-school mechanic's trick! Good luck hunting down that elusive electrical gremlin-hope it earns me a free T-shirt LOL
Better get that Ford out of there before contaminates everything just kidding put a couple carburetors on top of that damn thing a regular distributor and a little ignition box and hit the key
wondering if it's possible the ECU got swapped? vs dyno as the car might have one working and steve's has a bad-cap/bio software, not a programmer millwright&automotive shop repairs/other in it, and yes vs cap/rotor and or carbs repairs/R&R this is a super rare-failure mode-pathways but does happen and rob-dom/RX7-RUclips channel/racing-llc had 3~by now go-out and or weird wiring-failure's so that's one more resource for morris-engineering to talk to
had a ( fixing was around 2009~era ) Chrysler convertible 2006~ 2.7-V6 auto with similarly problematic but the owners decided to scrapping it so it never got fixed and it was minty other than it wouldn't stay-running/starting-consistently
Did you unplug that damn nitrous system, it was a big shock to your equipment!
Your drill has a max rpm of around 380 something,,, atleast we learned something,,,,
Just testing on low. Higher speed equals higher torque. If you've ever used a giant hole saw, you'll know what I mean.
Above and beyond.
Hell of an effort can't wait to see what the problem Is One hell of an effort brother, God bless.
This is above my pay grade but when I started watching you chased my thought process. Ty for showing this
Crank bolt magnetized or crank itself? That would be my guess.
Ain't got no gas.... Slingblade reference ftw.
@@jimmanis6717 thanks.
Just going to say the same thing lol.😂
This should be the top comment it’s the first thing I thought lol
You seem well educated.........
Wow, never been this frustrated at someone else's problem, hope i find out by end of this video , for your sake and mine ,God Bless !!!!
You need some magnetic paper /sheets. It is green and when placed on something magnetic it shows the fields. Amazing tool to have. It's like having xray vision in magnetic fields.
You are the man who has done thousands of motors and you know your tools and shop and we all know you hate to lose or should I say not be able to fix something I was a millrite for 32 years a couple of times it was jist that way
Theory: The ecu and battery are not grounded to the block properly. When you mount the sensor, one leg of the sensor is
grounded to the block. You have noise transmitted on one of the line to the sensor.
I don't think a hall effect sensor would work like that. One that was just getting induced voltage might.
They were holding the sensor in their hand though as well not reading, despite reading just fine held by hand against the drill.
Good idea. But this is more of a issue with magnetics being shielded or dampened. Not noise on a line.
@@kontakt4321 but the sensor head isn't grounded to the engine when they're holding it by hand. Run a strap from engine to pickup, run drill and crank engine.
The cam sensor reads correctly though? Very puzzling.
The wiring harness is the only part different in the car vs the dyno. I would run an external twisted pair wire harness to the pick up sensor. The wire twist is critical to keep out noise. Keep the whole wire run away from any dyno wiring for a test. If you had a scope directly connected to the pick up wire you would figure this out fast.
If you crank it while the crank has some sort of magnetism, it would act like an induction motor and create an even more magnetic field.
When you crank the motor it applies current (battery voltage) through the motor going back to negative creating a rotor and stater effect
And it wouldn't run in the car, which it does.
Btw, engines don't use earth ground. That's a ground for your shop's AC power. The ONLY ground you want in your 12V or 16V systems is the battery ground. Should be a completely closed system.
I was yelling at the monitor when Steve was drilling the crank sensor wheel on the drill press, and yup - she's a spinner. Glad you weren't hurt...
EE student here, with this things its really hard to say something meaningful without being present because with Electronics its the little details that kill you.
Having said that, it seemed that whatever it was it had to do with the blocks connection to ground, as if you notice every time it worked it wasn't mounted to the block.
btw isolating the magnet side wouldn't ever change anything as a voltage / connection on the wheel doesn't affect the magnet's fields which is what the sensor picks up.
Btw a son of a small business i also seen these frustrating days when we just have to "swallow some frogs" as we say here in Portugal but its the right thing to do. Thanks for what you do
Always great to see someone doing right for his fellow men.
Swallowing frogs im stealing that for sure!!
I think this guy is on to something. It did seem to work when the sensor itself was not mounted to the block.
It's the FORD. Ferrous Orbiting Rotational Discharging syndrome.
😂
Hey, they circled the problem...
I had something similar happen to my BMW. I had the switched 12 volt and the full 12 volt signals to the starter relay backwards. (Two small 14? gauge wires, not the big power wires) Car would start and run fine, but it had screwy gremlins and ghost codes. (Reverted to batch fire due to sync errors) I believe one is the "exciter wire" and the other small wire is the 12volt. They were flip flopped.
This.
It even tripped out my abs and my traction control some how. ( Only real reason I finally found it. )
BIG BLOCK NITROUS FORD IT JUST LOOKS AND SOUNDS COOL THANKS FOR DOING SOMETHING DIFFERENT STEVE YOU'RE THE COOLEST GEEK AROUND DOING IT
Hi steve. I'm a plumbing contractor so I clearly understand when things go south and you're spending hours fixing something the money you lose maybe something was magnetized causing some different polarity. Ironically I was messing with magnets over Thanksgiving and noticed some weird stuff that I've never known before
Is the crank shaft heavily magnetized?
Many years ago I was working at a Firestone store. Had a car towed in that was hard to startup, Fran rough and got pathetic fuel mileage. This was a carburetor engine with electronic ignition. Customer had his car at his cottage and would not start. Local garage found it had defective pickup coil so they replaced it and sent customer back to Toronto with it. After 300km and two tanks of fuel the car was very hard to start, ran rough and got very poor fuel mileage so he had it towed in the last 200km.
Firestome back then had Allen Smart Scopes in all company owned stores. I connected the scope and started the engine. First thing it showed me was 14 cylinders firing. I have always taken the attitude that whatever is wrong will so basic and simple the I don't bother wasting time by using the "by guess, by golly" method of diagnosis. I looked at the 14 cylinders appearing on the scope and figured that must be 8 cylinders and 6 cylinders somehow combined. Since the spacings were the same distance apart whoever changed the pickup coil must have put the pickup coil from a 90 degree Chevy V6. I took the cap off and sure enough it had the V6 pickup coil along with the v8 reluctlr. Changed it back to correct parts and everything returned to normal. I spent less than an hour on that car and explained that I had never seen or heard of that even happening. Customer complained to Firestone that since I had never seen that before I must be a poor/inexperidnced mechanic that obviously didn't know what I was doing by not scamming him. Firestone refunded him his entire invoice,. 0.75 hrs labour plus retail cost of Echlin pickup coil.
Point is start at the very basics. I would have gone through install./zetjp guide for the Ford paying attention to the difference between gm and Ford. Your solution will be simple.
Keep it simple stupid! :) or stupid simple
Degaussing the crankshaft and front harmonic balancer ....
this is the reason i changed my profesion when they started with computers in the automotive industry..!...the fact that he has a signal & it runs in the car...means it has to be the differance in how its instaled to the dyno..?..thats the only thing thats changing..!....its a running motor in the car...!...this cant b over look'd..!...u r a stand up dude Steve...try'n all u did 4 the customer...!..i hope he stays a customer..thats the least he can do..!..great video..follow up will b better..!
Random question, was it the same starter? Idk if it can induce strong magnetic fields in the crank but it would be interesting.
It's so weird at work off the engine
Thanks for this video showing what can go wrong! Super helpful for a guy to learn.
Steve use plastic standoffs to mount it on the crank and try that. In other words, isolate it totally from the engine
Keep watching
Electrical tape to wrap the threads of the bolts? Instead of your spacers
Threads cut right through the tape instantly!
When the engine was suspended in the air the customer said 'this is the same as in the dyno', well not quite as in SM's shop it was hooked up to the dyno shaft every test.
Good video as always!!
Without watching the whole video, my first guess would be something is causing a magnetic field
That is my thinking as well
Steve thanks so much for sharing situations like this with your viewers. I hope you find out exactly what happened. Here’s my guess, it has to have something to do with the sensor picking up noise when bolted to the motor. What’s crazy is it worked when your customer put it back in the car even when not touching the chassis. Maybe an issue with the starter motor?
Those RCV heads are badass! I really applaud your efforts to troubleshoot the problem.
Non resistor plugs/ plug wires can cause enough noise in the pickup wiring to screw up the ECM. Not sure if you have the ignition when you are cranking, but it's a quick check to shut the ignition off and try cranking while watching the signal on a scope.
Good luck!
@@scottmarshall6766 msd ignition actually sends a paper with the ignition about this. This is definitely a potential cause for his issue.
By chance was the crank magnafluxed for cracks and not demagnetized after the process.
I would’ve stopped saying fudge like 20 minutes into it 😎
Ain't got no gas in it
lol could be
Assuming that you have the sensor connected through the loom to the ECU as normal:
1. What happens if you mount the sensor on the engine and spin your drill-mounted wheel in front of it?
2. If that still works, fit the trigger wheel to the damper and bar the engine over by hand (maybe connecting an oscilloscope to the sensor output to see the signal)
3. If that still works use your scope to check the voltage droop of your 12v supply during cranking.
4. If 12v is ok, you have some kind of interference issue. Connect all sensor wires to separate channels in your scope. If scope isn't mains-powered connect the ground side of the scope probes to a good true earth point. This should show up the interference, if that's the issue. I've seen big shifts of grounds on engine dynos caused by faulty high-current components (starters, grid heaters, etc) feeding battery voltage into the engine block - this is impossible to diagnose if you don't do the test in this step. Excessive arcing in the starter motor can be quite common too.
Bear in mind:
- If you've done the grounding correctly in your dyno room, you should have earth spikes connected to the rebar in the floor of your dyno room and then a cable from the rebar up into the room itself.
- The sensor ground will normally connect back to dedicated sensor ground pins on the ECU that are filtered from main battery ground to pretect from noise. The sensor itself shouldn't normally be connected to the engine block or battery ground.
- Be careful connecting mains-powered scopes to your ECU system when you DON'T want and earth-referenced measurement . Presuming you have an earth terminal in your mains sockets, the ground clip on the probes will be connected to this mains earth connection. A battery scope, such as a Picoscope, is your friend here.
- An A/C dyno is your friend for this kind of work. Although expensive, they make initial debugging of crank/cam sensors, injector and ignition timing before firing really simple since you can spin the engine at whatever speed you like for as long as you like without combustion.
Okay...... Crank! Magnitized......
Lol that was the only constant I could think of aswell
Crank and cam are connected and the cam trigger works
The crank guys didn't demag the crank, after doing a mag particle inspection
then why or how does it start in the car and in their shop suspended above the chassis?
@warrenmichael918 no idea. My guess there is enoght metal around the crank with the cage to control extra mag field
What is your guess?
@@Kevin_Ruz i wish i had a good one. Your guess is as good as any ive read in here. I was just wondering what could be so different in their shop from SM shop and dyno. Its a weird issue that i bet they will figure out, i hope.
@@Kevin_Ruz Okay before I watch the rest of the video. I work a lot with magnetism so this is curious. One something is magnetized or two an electrical current is forming a electromagnet which will it be.
@@warrenmichael918 yep I agree. Only other thing can think of, something in the shop causing interference with the sensor, backfeeding in though the dyno. At work, I can see it on my automated UT machines that aren't on filtered power. With erounious signals passing through the ac lines from other equipment
Magnetized crank?
I'm a retired master mech and tv repair. I belive you have a magnetized crank!! You need a old tv mans deguassing coil to move around the front of the engine. In 1980 i worked at a ford dealer and attended their schools in Lansing Mi. About a month after i reopned my own shop I got a call from Ford Execs that an Lincoln had been near a lightning strike and the electronic ignition and compass wouldn't work they brought it to me on a lowboy and I deguassed the WHOLE CAR on jackstands and it worked on everything!! The one thing in common was your crank--- It may not have happened in a IRON BLOCK!
Hey Steve, there's a company i deal with called Mo Glide. They're great people, military family. He was a fluid engineer for the military. There's some videos out there of how the stuff works. But it basically de-magnetizes the engine components. It's also works on engine harmonics. It's really cool stuff. The other name for it is NMF. No More Friction
The flux capacitor is not bluetoothing to the motherboard
I think it is 5 or 6 jigg o watts low
I worked on the Honda Valkyrie quite a bit, occasionally I would run into wheels that would not throw a proper signal on blower equipped engines, I diagnosed this with a Fluke meter and the hall effect test. As SWAG, isolate the wheel from the balancer/engine with a Delrin spacer using nonferrous mounting bolts.
Quick test: see if you have electrical current running between the tone wheel and the block. If it's transient magnetism, it may be an electromagnet effect interfering. (Ah, at 30 mins in you did. Hmmm.)
The crank is mangatized
I would think that the starter or alternator is intermittently shorting. That or the current path for it may be going down the crank. This allows enough current to flow down its length then return down the block(5-10of the hundred amps pulled)for the crank to pulse and screws with the pickup. The cam being in the middle of the block is effectively in a faraday cage and doesn’t get the same interference. When you tested spinning it separately you were positioned in such a way that the effective field lines produced were perpendicular to the sensor and were less susceptible to interference. In the car the front and rear engine plates route the current through the frame and it doesn’t appear.
My thought - watching the engine crank in the car, noticed that the negative battery cable appeared to be grounded to the motor plate right next to the starter - so starting current was not flowing through the block. If your dyno negative cable was grounded elsewhere then current could flow through the block and/or accessory brackets, etc. creating a stray magnetic field - but only when the starter was drawing current! When you spin the tone wheel with a drill the starter is not drawing any current and would not be creating the field. Suggestion: Tape the positive and negative battery cables together from the battery and connect both directly to the starter. This eliminates any current loops that could create a stray magnetic field. Also: retry your "drill test" as the engine is spun over using the starter (theoretically re-creating the stray magnetic fields). Cheers from Dan in Phoenix!
This seems the most plausible explanation so far.
@Steve Morris Engines ^This is most likely your problem, the starter current is flowing through the block and or crank. Place the engine ground on the starter bolt so the current flows directly from the positive post through the starter windings back to battery ground.
They "drill Tested" it while cranking the engine with the starter. Why they proceeded to isolate the wheel with rubber.
Steve - to add to my first comment - as you know, the starter current peaks then dips as each cylinder reaches TDC on compression. the resulting stray magnetic fields would pulse in a similar fashion. If this is what's happening the timed stray pulses would really confuse the ECU!
The balancer has Ben magnitize
That would have been my first guess.
They swapped to a aluminum balancer, no diff. Back to steel now.
Heat shrink tube on the bolts would have been easier than making the rubber washers.
Great idea
Genius idea honestly
Gotta give you credit for trying everything you did. Its hard to accept defeat i know. Keep up the good work man.
Hey Steve I spend all my days diagnosing weird issues like this and my oscilloscope is my most favorite tool… I will say that whenever I run into this type of issue it ends up being something with the sensor to trigger wheel gap. Even a distance change as small as the thickness of cereal box cardboard will be the difference of the ecm being able to utilize the data correctly in the processing or not. Was very common on old jeep 4.0l where the reluctor is built into the flex plate, after ppl would swap trans and get rowdy with stabbing the new in the flex plate would be ever slightly bent and the voltage would not go quite far enough past threshold intermittently for the ecm to see this as a High low or a low high change and sliding a piece of cereal box cardboard between the sensor and the bell housing (where they bolt on) would be enough added gap to allow the signal to cross over the upper and lower voltage thresholds (remember computers can only truly see in binary switches either a 1 or a 0). Too much gap is also just as problematic as too little gap and its the inconsistency that makes the ecm spit the data aside and stop the processing calculation of rpm data. Feel free to send me a ckp scope waveform to analyze I can usually tell ya what is happening and which way ya need to go or help theorize what is going on
Heat shrink sleeve would probably work on the bolts versus trying to punch bushings
Try removing the magnetic wheel and leave the sensor in place and spin the motor. read the oscilloscope program. That will show you if you have any magnetic readings coming from the crank or balancer if you see any noise in the scope you have residuals magnetism in the system
My thoughts exactly. Also they didn't isolate the sensor (could have made a plastic or non conductive mount, it would have ran but not the answer.. Also He mentioned a earth ground connected to the battery ground? I don't see the need or completely understand. Could be related.
Dyno starter motor is throwing ground ripple into the block or the crankshaft through the flexplate. When the crank is spinning it IS NOT grounded because of the bearings oil film. Isolate the reluctor wheel from the balancer and shield the crank pickup wiring.
i think you might be the closest to guessing what is going on, it makes the most sense
He tried that. Didn't work. I suspect the sensor wiring or grounds in general are not what is expected, especially considering it's not his own harness. And it worked fine before and after this fiasco in customers car.
In typical circuit analysis, an opto-isolator circuit can short closed and appear normal in all aspects until you try to operate it. An opto-isolator is a tiny circuit that translates a signal via a light beam, this allows a usable signal that is unaffected by other grounding issues with any other components.
Crank isn’t slightly bent causing the gap to change…. Could you check the gap 360 degrees
Just watched the end never mind
Steve, you crack me up with the thumbnail!!
If you havent got it going. I read alot of the comments and they all give great ideas. I had a similar issue long ago with holley efi. I run a flywheel trigger and resolved the dirty signal. Which come down to much rotating magnetised metal in a small area. Hope you get that Ford sparked up.
Crank sensor winding is shorted to housing. When you use drill the sensor is in your hand and not mount.
I
He stated they tried several sensors, hall effect, inductive ect. Did you even watch the video?
@@jeffreydurham5342 I did not hear that until end of video. Doesn't mean I am wrong. New sensors can even be bad. But it was proven in his video when sensor was held they had signal. The only other variable is they were not using starter circuit. So the issue could of been while cranking interrupting signal. Be it voltage drop or possibly alternator a/c noise introduced while cranking. Having a oscilloscope on wires would of told a lot. When the car was at home shop a different starting system was probably used. I believe Steve's dyno provides starter most of time at his shop.
@@rcsnowball yes it does prove you are wrong, several sensors with ground issues? This is a very peculiar problem.
@@rcsnowball several sensors shorted to housing? I think you are wrong, I have no "proof" but he showed more than one would work as long as it wasn't on the engine.
Clearly the crankshaft was manufactured with a combination of metals including expensium and unobtaium. And some dingbat for some reason did a standard magma flux test. However they forgot that this vehicle will require a flux capacitor. Which would have neutralized the magnetic quandary that they accidentally created. Seems like a no brainer to me. Especially since they are clearly trying to build a space time disrupter like you have.
I think a lot of people are wrongly looking at the engine for a hardware fault here. Not only did you troubleshoot all hardware (harness, sensors, pickup wheels etc.) and electrical systems related to them, the end of the video proves the hardware all works fine and the engine runs. Even if the engine had a magnetized crank from rebuild it still ran. At this point the only major variable is the location. It sounds like a magnetic field in the dyno/ dyno rooms that’s tripping the pickup sensor. And the rotating mass of the engine is just amplifying it. You moved the engine to a 2nd dyno room but it’s hard to tell if you actually hooked the engine up to the dyno shaft. If those dynos are on the same electrical grid they may have some sort of current that’s built an magnetic field in the dyno itself, and being on the same power grid means they both have it. Cutting power and disconnecting everything doesn’t necessarily disperse magnetic fields.
I would’ve tried to have the engine completely detached from the dyno and maybe even isolated from the cart its on. Attempt crank and if still no clean signal maybe move it to another part of the shop with a battery just to crank it.
All this said, if you stick another engine on the dyno with the same fuel tech system on it and it does start then I have no idea.
Eddy Current Dynamometers: These use strong magnetic fields to create load, which can indeed interfere with sensors if not properly shielded or if there's an issue with the dyno's operation.
AC Dynamometers: Although less common, they can also produce significant magnetic fields, especially during operation.
Electric Motors:
Cooling Fans: Large fans used for ventilation might have electric motors that produce magnetic fields.
Other Equipment: Any large or small motors for equipment like air compressors or automated systems can emit magnetic fields.
HVAC Systems:
Air Conditioning Units: These often contain motors and compressors that can generate magnetic fields, especially if they're close to the dyno setup.
Welding Equipment:
If there's welding done in or near the dyno room, the magnetic fields from welders can be quite strong, though this would be more intermittent.
Power Tools:
Electric tools used for maintenance or setup could contribute, particularly if they're in use or left running near the dyno.
Electrical Wiring:
High Current Lines: Heavy electrical wiring for the dyno or other high-power equipment can create magnetic fields if not properly routed or shielded.
Power Transformers: If there are transformers in or near the room for power distribution, they can be significant sources of magnetic interference.
Electronics and Control Systems:
Dyno Control Panels: The electronics used to control the dynamometer and data acquisition systems can emit fields, especially if there's poor shielding or grounding.
Lighting:
Fluorescent or HID Lights: Certain types of lighting can produce electromagnetic interference, especially if they're old or faulty
I feel your frustration. I've been making my living in the automotive repair, building, performance, ect for 40years or so. Some shit just refuses to fix! Why?? It's only luckily been on a few occasions but remember them well and still bugs me. Thanks for bringing back those memories. Lol. Good luck. I have no Flippin idea what is where your gremlin is. But he's there.
After watching the entire video, have you tried the drill method while running the starter? series wired starter motors make a ton of electrical noise. see my other post. the starter seems to be the one constant.
He did try that. Didn't start the engine and then engage the wheel. Not sure if that's the problem though. If it was, the beginning signal might be lost only if the starter is running, but if the signal is being received, it doesn't interrupt it?
I noticed you all focused a lot on the wheel and its grounding. Did you all try isolating the pick-up sensor?
For example, can you find a way to rubberize the sensor mount so it can't ground out?
I do feel it's a grounding issue or as you all said, some kind of sensor interference.
Did you try mounting the wheel on the engine and try holding the sensor in your hand? If that worked, it would let you know it's the sensor grounding
Just remember that your 12v system must create a loop. From the positive post back to the negative. ECU grounded back to the same 12v source. The sensors must use the measured ecu ground.
Try disconnecting the dyno earth ground.
Try running a ground wire directly from the start case to the 12v source.
I have had non grounded starters continue to run after cranking on my old BBF trucks. (It’s been so long I can’t remember to give a detailed description of how and why)
Just watched you all for 46 mins and felt 46 mins of ever decreasing hope. We all been there at some time. Looking forward to any development on this.
I agree there's residual magnetism somewhere in the crank or the block. I would put a rubber dampener between a crank wheel and the balancer I would also try to put a brass liner in there on the crank timing sensor itself to see if you can limit any feedback or magnetism
If you've recently performed a magnetic particle inspection (magnaflux) of the crankshaft and it wasn't degaussed (demagnetized), the crank could be slightly magnetised. This magnetism could be transferring to the wheels you have tried. Try placing a non-conducting insulating material (a gasket, teflon, etc) between the wheel and crank balancer.
The mount for the sensor could be magnetized. If the holder acts as a magnet the sensor will not see anything else. If you hold the sensor by hand, the mount is not in play. Did you change the sensor mount? Also, if you have a steel/iron sensor mount, it cannot hold the sensor too close to the sensing end, this can also block the magnet signal.
I just want to tell you that i thank you are one of the best engine builders alive i do small engine stuff it is not hard to go fast a few times hard to make a engine drive and go fast
It was the Thermal Flux Capacitor ,beside the blinker fluid causing the issue..lol Nice build SIR
I feel for you. The crazy stuff you go through is amazing.
remove all pins from ecm connectors Except crank Signal and test it. If its clean signal hook up a sensor at a time and injectors and so on until the signal is dirty. on a side note i believe you are on the right track looking for an EMF issue. In my opinion its trying to draw current threw the sensor or mount body. also you can use more than 5v to the hall effect sensor, try 7v then 9v. even 12v if the ecm allows and or has a pullup resistor to sensor. Same logic applies to a VR sensor. but with the hall effect sensor yo can use a Low Dropout Regulator if needed with the added voltage input to the hall effect senor, the LDOR will clean up the signal at various voltages to give you a useable output.
That's exactly what I would have done as well... Unpin everything from the ecm side and start there. To start with though I would have prob swapped cam sensor wiring and crank signal in the ecm and tested.. then if that failed unpin everything.
While running 2 stroke outboards we attempted to get rid of the stator and use a 7AL2 box . We mounted a crank trigger using the stock flywheel and everything worked perfectly up until we got the RPM up about 3800. Then it ran like crap. Traced it back to the spinning magnet in the stock flywheel. Removed the stator magnet and ran like a banshee. Sounds like a similar situation. Something is creating a magnetic field interrupting your pickup.