Steve, I have not watched your next video yet, but my guess is that your dirty ckp signal is due to the high starter current draw "bleeding" into the block affecting your computer ground reference. I would try relocating the battery ground to the starter case.
As an electrical engineer... I'm pretty confidant that when you mount the sensor to the block, you're getting a ground lift. That is to say, they did something silly and grounded the case of the sensor to the sensor ground. Sensor ground should ALWAYS bet separate from your engine ground. Something is likely leaking current into your engine ground and the metal case of the sensor is then connecting to your motor ground and the current is enough to lift the sensor ground, thus the voltage delta seen from no magnet to magnet there is not enough to be seen by the detector circuit all the time, and you get intermittent readings. Isolate the metal case of the sensor from the engine block, and make sure your sensor ground is not tied to your engine ground and I bet she'll pick up the RPM signal cleanly.
That was the test they missed. They should have run the drill trigger with the sensor mounted on the block when the dampner was off. Sensor works when not grounded in their hand.
@ I’ve seen it many times in person. We actually had specs in the transportation industry for residual magnetism in machined parts used in electric traction motors, gear boxes and control equipment.
I'm not there, so this is just conjecture based on experience around dynos as an instrumentation engineer many years ago. My guess is that the engine control system ground is not directly connected to the battery negative terminal, but rather to the engine block or somewhere upstream from the starter negative. If that's the case, then the controller ground "floats" when the starter rotates due to the voltage drop across the cable from starter negative to battery negative. If you were to use an oscilloscope to measure between battery negative and starter negative, there will be a voltage drop and probably significant spikes as the starter brushes make and break during rotation. Let's say the pickup puts out a zero to 5 volt signal as it passes the flying magnet. If the controller ground reference is no longer zero volts due to hash from the starter, the controller essentially doesn't see the pulse. It's possible that between brush make/break that the ground reference is stable and a few pulses might be read. Is it possible to use an impact tool to crank the engine without using the starter. Maybe remove the plugs to relieve compression and see if the RPM signal is detected. If it is, then the problem is probably as stated above. Alternatively, use a second battery to only crank the starter. Finally, compare the dyno harness and how everything is connected vs the setup in the vehicle. Pay particular attention to how the various system grounds are routed. I've been there and I feel your pain!
Engine has to be magnetized somehow. Take a compass and put it near the engine and see where north is. Bet it points to the engine all the time. Might need to degauss the engine. Sometimes happens to airplane engines when struck by lighting as in the prop get hits. Just my two cents.
I have seen this too. Many years ago had an engine eating rods and mains. The crank had a slight magnetism to it. It was holding some fillings in the the oil gap. Acting as a very fine sand paper.
It’s good to see better men than me struggle with crazy problems forever just like I do. Thanks for posting this video Steve. I’ve lost countless hours and dollars in similar situations.
I found whenever something weird like this would happen. It always seems to be a ground issue. Make sure you have plenty of ground hooked to the ECU, starter and engine block to the dyno. Test to see if the crank trigger wire is getting power during crank. Some are 5 volt and some are 12 to the ECU. Double check there is no plating insulating the grounds. Unless I missed it one thing I didn’t see you do is hold the crank trigger without touching the block and crank it over. Then touch the crank trigger to the block and turn it over and see if you lose signal. That would seem to be a bad ground issue. Also a bad mechanical starter solenoid can cause that as well. Or not wiring a starter solenoid correctly. An old school starter solenoid will feed power to the ignition and starter but nothing else during crank if wired correctly. Not sure if your using one of those.
Have come across this before, corrupted crankshaft position sensor signal during cranking. Lots of electrical noise during cranking. It was the starter motor. The mica had not been undercut properly between the commutator bars, and the brushes were arcing as they skipped off the mica
Not a dying breed. You just need to watch who you deal with. I run my business the same. If it's my fault then it's on me. Cant charge the customer for things out of the ordinary
7:42 Your wheel is grounding out! That sounds like a wiring issue. Check wiring harness. I had same issue when i did a custom engine swap on my Mustang. Hope this helps. Love the videos! Thank You Steve for all your knowledge that you share with us all!
pretty sure he learns more if reading everything. but who has the time? especially when the majooority of comments are a total waste of time. but even sifting through the endless dung... u can simply not compare the amount of memory and knowledge capacity of one man vs x.
Ford had an issue with starter motors a few years back. it put out a wave signal within electrical system that neutralized the crank sensors signal.. loving your work here be good to find problem.
I had the small wires on my BMW starter flip flopped. The exciter wire and the constant (small 14 gauge wires not the big power wires. ) It would start and run, but screwy. Cam/crank errors. Abs and traction control issues. Reverted to batch fire from sync errors.
It can't affect the type of crank trigger sensor like what is used here, that uses no input power from the cars 12 volt system. The sensor is simply a generator that creates its own signal from the magnet passing by the coil of wire inside of it. It's totally seperate from the car's 12 volt system
Well, I can't speak to car systems but ... with factory automation control systems, we required one ground point at the cabinet. A phrase I remember for a shielded cable, "ground the shield in the cabinet, open in the field". Meaning, when you have a shielded sensor or control signal "in the field", you leave the shield open and not grounded (except at the one point in the cabinet). When you have multiple grounds, you have "ground-loops" which gives different "ground references" and confuses the system.
Ground-loops was also what I was thinking. I've never used flying magnets as crank trigger, but most of the times I've seen noisy crank signals with other EFI systems it has had something to do with ground. Either a ground loop in the shielding or incorrect grounding of the shielding or the sensor.
It appears that Hall Effect sensor Vcc and GND are flipped in the dyno setup. Easy check would be connect Hall Effect sensor pigtail to your wire harness and isolate it from its mount (12VDC GND). Power ECU and measure DC voltage between metal sensor body and mount, or to test without engine measure to the ECU source 12VDC GND. Reason it works when sensor is isolated from its mount is the Hall Effect sensor will also operate with negative DC voltage source. Once the Hall Effect sensor is mounted to the engine the sensor case which is at ~Vcc is dead shorted to the source 12VDC GND. At this point the Hall Effect sensor is essentially unpowered. The Hall Effect sensor is current limited to 20mA max which is relatively small and does not cause any excessive heating or damage to the ECU or wire harness. There is no issue with the magnetic trigger wheel. Isolating it has no effect.
These types of crank trigger sensors do NOT require any power to operate..... they are simply 2 wires that come directly from the pickup coil inside of it. They create their signal simply from the magnet flying past the isolated pickup coil inside of it... Totally isolated from the 12 volt system of the car. So that can NOT be what's happening.
The crank is still magnetically charged from the mag particle testing so it’s turning the whole balancer and wheel into a magnet so you aren’t ever getting a clean signal
One last stab… I know you car guys think in terms of “ground” but us audio guys also deal with “floating” signals that work off “deltas”. My guess here is that it may be possible that the sensor should NOT BE GROUNDED [only the shielding?? If any?]. and that if you ground one side of the sensor line you effectively dump the induced voltage change to ground meaning you get no pulse! In a floating situation the input channel would have 2 connections [and maybe even a 3rd which would be a shielding ground] almost exactly like we have in an [audio] XLR it’s called a Balanced input! Again a complete guess LOL
The thing everyone usually overlooks is EMI/EMF noise. (Prob not in this case). They should ALWAYS be using dual shielded cable for both pickup and ignition cables. Braided and aluminum foil wrap etc wire with an independent bare drain wire running through it. The drain wire needs to be grounded separately to catch any interference. In some cases a few 50 cent magnetic ferrites snapped on the cable will also be worth trying. They should also look into running Multi-Fire brand plug wires they are the a absolute best wire with the lowest resistance of any wire on the market. These wires are sooo good you cannot put a timing light on the car because the clamp will never pickup the spark signal. You literally need to use a junky MSD or moroso wire to time. It’s the best wire to insure your not getting noise from your plug wires.
I think Studio51media (and others) is on to something. (Former substation commissioning engineer here) In the field we had many 0-20 mA and 4-20 mA loops for analog signals. Also, there was a fair amount of SCADA equipment with DB9, RS232/485 stuff. Simple 2 and 3 wire mA loop cables and the DB9 cables were shielded. Often the signals were sensitive to proper cabling and shielding. Some (shields) grounded on one end, some the other and some both ends - depended on the equipment, manufacturer, situation etc. Good luck, I'm sure you've found it already but props to you for showing the failure and transparency...refreshing to see.
You might check out the coils. I had a random misfire caused by eddy currents set up by bad coils in a ford coil on plug system. Caused a lot of headaches. Nevermind I think it would not have kept happening with the coils disconnected.
Is the dyno starter creating some sort of interference/signal? Just thinking about what's different between the car and dyno. Can't wait to see the solution.
Your Such an Amazing Man and Business Owner for doing so much for your customers and taking losses like this and posting it!! Your absolutely priceless to this industry and sport We Love!!!
Steve... please, please keep doing these videos. (As long as you can afford to mentally and financially) im currently going thru a wiring demon, or something since hurricane Helen my ford van (witch is my home) has been undrivable. Water hit 24 ' high witch is 8' above my van.( normally 4') We had to get towed to high ground and then started fixing the demon. Im not a racer cant repay you for this kind of video or any kind of video to be honest. But 9 weeks in and still along side the river not running... i too am at a loss. Still along side the river bank.. Been thru everything I can afford.. $250- $300 in parts,$100 in towing that I just didn't have. Took this long to try and find any repeatable issue. Even with codes its been a FAIL. 1989 E350 5.8 134K on the clock. Super clean but also great boat anchor at this point. Still no light in or out of the tunnel. I know our worlds are to far apart to matter.... but damn I love to learn from someone who cares! THANK YOU, YOUR FAMILY/TEAM FOR CAREING. its not only customers or deep pocket racers that watch you! GOD BLESS YOU AND YOURS OVER THE HOLIDAYS & LIFE.
@dannymccraw4841 I have replaced the following after texting with scanner danner on youtube, reading codes, and doing own research. Tps, both coolant sensors, map sensor, distibutor module, plugs, wires, and cleaned cap and rotor. Been a fight becouse all codes coming in are the parts ive already bought and then replaced under warranty twice over. All thats left are the computer with possible bad leaking diodes, or the pic up in distributor. Your thoughts? Symptoms are... starts ok, but them as it warms up it has a heavy electrical shunt(miss) that eventually makes it die. Last codes was again faulty tps under 4.6 v then another one i hadn't seen yet. Eps or something. May do with egr?( was aggravated didn't pay much attention and quite for the day)
@@nodotoroam anytime a vehicle is flooded it’s a nightmare, but I’d have absolutely replaced all computers first( I’d have replaced all electrical censors and computer) The board and components can be compromised as such you can get false codes , ghost codes because of water damage. At least get an ecm and see if most of your codes go away. Then if so get the bcm for body controls to function properly hopefully anyway, window regulators could be ok for a while ect.
@@dannymccraw4841 this van never seen floods.. 100% not flood. We had it towed to higher groung before the storm. We just couldn't get it to start to move it. After towed to higher ground I started on the issue. Replaced the distibutor module that got it to start. However it was low on power missing and didn't seem to run well after warm. I had already did plugs wires and cap for i was there and it needed them for maintenance also replaced temp gauge sensor for it not working. Then found bad wire so that was money gone but thankfull for it was fixed. So was never wet other then rain.everthing on van works.. power locks windows everthing.. just not running well. Again never seen more then a puddle. Not flood.sorry for confution.
@@buddybrown4903 I wondered the same thing but haven't made it through the whole video yet. I think it's a combo of the engine needing degaussed and the sensor grounding out on the bracket/block.
Had an issue couple years ago with a car I put together where the engine would crank up and run fine then just go haywire and not want to rev or act right at all. Kept messing with it and messing with it. Got a friend to come over to put another set of eyes on it, still didn't figure it out, but later that day is when I started to put it together. Talked to a handful of people smarter than me with EFI stuff and got nowhere with that. Finally got another friend to look at a couple datalogs of the engine running smooth and the engine not running smooth. He noticed in an RPM trace in areas in the data that equaled less than a second in time that the RPM trace was erratic. From that I figured out that the engine only acted crazy when the cooling fan was on, which I should have picked up before because I could cold start it and the engine acted fine, but as soon as it warmed up and the fan kicked on it wouldn't run fine. People didn't want to believe me, but the PIP sensor in the distributor was picking up on electronic noise from the radiator fan. I sourced a couple original distributors with original sensors in them and with those the engine ran fine. Put the aftermarket distributor in and as soon as the fan came on it wouldn't run correctly.
Man that is weird, starts in the car, starts with the engine isolated but not on the Dyno, I have to say you tried everything you could. I'm sure there is something valuable to learn in the end though so thanks for sharing Steve!
Had a similar issue with a Hall effect driveshaft sensor, put plastic washers between the bracket and nuts (it wasn’t a threaded bracket) and that fixed it.
The wiring harness is the only part different in the car vs the dyno. I would run an external twisted pair wire harness to the pick up sensor. The wire twist is critical to keep out noise. Keep the whole wire run away from any dyno wiring for a test. If you had a scope directly connected to the pick up wire you would figure this out fast.
Did you try cranking directly with a separate battery and separate leads while it was in the test rig? Did you have a way to spin the motor without using the starter? Was the starter ground connected differently in the test rig from when it was in the car, for example via the chassis instead of direct to the engine block? Any common current paths to the ECU and starter grounds? I'd try a multi-channel storage scope to look at the sensor signal voltage relative to the block, starter body and controller signal return and protective ground. I guess you could have 3D printed a magnet wheel to check if there really was a problem with the wheel being conductive, but I can't think of a mechanism that would cause spurious signals that way. Great creative problem-solving skills there though!
Clearly the magnetic pick up is shorted through its case. Hold the pick up in your hand while cranking (like you do when spinning the wheel with a drill) and I'll bet you get a signal.
We had our car do that 2 different times, one we had nothing on cranking but signal rolling it over by hand . Roll it over by hand hooked to the ballancer, and the other was we pinched a wire on a bracket and it sent low voltage through the motor . Not enough to notice but just enough to mess with the crank trigger
Seeing as how it worked in the car before and after getting no crank signal in the dyno room, I'd have to call it a ground issue. People think of grounds like on or off, but there are several amps of power running through ground when you crank/run an engine and the crank pickup is reading milliamps so just a tiny bit of current flow from an oxidized or bad ground could mess up the signal. When your multimeter says something is grounded, that doesn't guarantee the connection is strong enough to carry strong signals like powering the starter and miniscule signals like a crank sensor. It really depends on the ECU software how it reads a "dirty" signal so even the "working" readout in the car could fail at an extreme like a full throttle drag pull. I'd be wary of running the engine in the car until you know why it didn't work in the dyno room because you don't want whatever was bad in the dyno room to spring up at peak horsepower. Check every ground and, if needed, add new grounds. Batteries to engine to ECU to heads to whatever the crank pickup is mounted to. Don't connect all the grounds in a star topology, like all going to one giant connector and instead spread them out so multiple connections like a ground strap from engine to battery and a different ground from engine to ECU and maybe run a ground wire to whatever the pickup is mounted to? You said it was the same wiring harness, but I'd check all the connectors and wires from the crank sensor back to the ECU to make sure something isn't getting a bad connection or short to ground. TL;DR I'd be cautious if it "works" in the car in case whatever the problem in the dyno room shows up in the middle of a run and you lose crank signal at peak power and open unnecessary inspection ports in the block.
@CCTec is correct, and added can be heating steel can cause metals to magnetize. Also, to check for cracks, the metals are magnetized in the process. Most likely this is the cause and unfortunately you'll need to have that removed by the system. But most likely once it's heated it'll go away.
STEVE- the issue is a small electrical current (like a possible injector or distributor short) that's affecting your magnetic pickup but isn't measurable on a scope. Wrap a piece of masking tape around the balance wheel and start that beast. This can help you observe inconsistencies in timing or pickup signals. Pay particular attention to wires and connections around the injectors and distributor. This method might help isolate the issue and is a good old-school mechanic's trick! Good luck hunting down that elusive electrical gremlin-hope it earns me a free T-shirt LOL
Better get that Ford out of there before contaminates everything just kidding put a couple carburetors on top of that damn thing a regular distributor and a little ignition box and hit the key
wondering if it's possible the ECU got swapped? vs dyno as the car might have one working and steve's has a bad-cap/bio software, not a programmer millwright&automotive shop repairs/other in it, and yes vs cap/rotor and or carbs repairs/R&R this is a super rare-failure mode-pathways but does happen and rob-dom/RX7-RUclips channel/racing-llc had 3~by now go-out and or weird wiring-failure's so that's one more resource for morris-engineering to talk to had a ( fixing was around 2009~era ) Chrysler convertible 2006~ 2.7-V6 auto with similarly problematic but the owners decided to scrapping it so it never got fixed and it was minty other than it wouldn't stay-running/starting-consistently
You need some magnetic paper /sheets. It is green and when placed on something magnetic it shows the fields. Amazing tool to have. It's like having xray vision in magnetic fields.
@@jennajones2155 I think they would sheer off with a slight imbalance in the Wheel, let alone deacceleration from anything over 2000rpm on a single pull on the dyno. They let us know they found the issue in a members only video, so stay tuned for the update on that engine 👍
Sorry for all your trouble but it does make me feel a little better watching a Pro go thru what we the average person freaks out about all the time . Praying for you to have wisdom to figure it out in the future .
Hell just being a technician in general is rough when it comes to doing dings. 1 hour of diag to start on some sorta BS intermittent problem that will definitely send you down the rabbit hole.
I normally end up in a muddy field, a tree would be nice. My experiences working on vehicles in stupid places that are well beyond end of life have helped solve issues mates have in their nice shiny workshops.
Hi Steve , the crankshaft could be pulling the magnetism out of the damper, try reading the damper off the crank then put a steel rod into the damper to see if it neutralizes the magnetism, hope this helps , good luck.
Many years ago I was working at a Firestone store. Had a car towed in that was hard to startup, Fran rough and got pathetic fuel mileage. This was a carburetor engine with electronic ignition. Customer had his car at his cottage and would not start. Local garage found it had defective pickup coil so they replaced it and sent customer back to Toronto with it. After 300km and two tanks of fuel the car was very hard to start, ran rough and got very poor fuel mileage so he had it towed in the last 200km. Firestome back then had Allen Smart Scopes in all company owned stores. I connected the scope and started the engine. First thing it showed me was 14 cylinders firing. I have always taken the attitude that whatever is wrong will so basic and simple the I don't bother wasting time by using the "by guess, by golly" method of diagnosis. I looked at the 14 cylinders appearing on the scope and figured that must be 8 cylinders and 6 cylinders somehow combined. Since the spacings were the same distance apart whoever changed the pickup coil must have put the pickup coil from a 90 degree Chevy V6. I took the cap off and sure enough it had the V6 pickup coil along with the v8 reluctlr. Changed it back to correct parts and everything returned to normal. I spent less than an hour on that car and explained that I had never seen or heard of that even happening. Customer complained to Firestone that since I had never seen that before I must be a poor/inexperidnced mechanic that obviously didn't know what I was doing by not scamming him. Firestone refunded him his entire invoice,. 0.75 hrs labour plus retail cost of Echlin pickup coil. Point is start at the very basics. I would have gone through install./zetjp guide for the Ford paying attention to the difference between gm and Ford. Your solution will be simple.
It sounds like you’re receiving some sort of ground through the crank. I’d be curious to see what you got if you connected a multi meter to the crank bolt.
I had something similar happen to my BMW. I had the switched 12 volt and the full 12 volt signals to the starter relay backwards. (Two small 14? gauge wires, not the big power wires) Car would start and run fine, but it had screwy gremlins and ghost codes. (Reverted to batch fire due to sync errors) I believe one is the "exciter wire" and the other small wire is the 12volt. They were flip flopped.
EE student here, with this things its really hard to say something meaningful without being present because with Electronics its the little details that kill you. Having said that, it seemed that whatever it was it had to do with the blocks connection to ground, as if you notice every time it worked it wasn't mounted to the block. btw isolating the magnet side wouldn't ever change anything as a voltage / connection on the wheel doesn't affect the magnet's fields which is what the sensor picks up. Btw a son of a small business i also seen these frustrating days when we just have to "swallow some frogs" as we say here in Portugal but its the right thing to do. Thanks for what you do Always great to see someone doing right for his fellow men.
Check for voltage drop or voltage differential from direct battery ground to block, starter, coil gound, injector harness ground and front crank trigger mount. Try having harness and ECU not mounted to anything to dyno, just laying separately on the floor and see what the RPM signal is then.
Non resistor plugs/ plug wires can cause enough noise in the pickup wiring to screw up the ECM. Not sure if you have the ignition when you are cranking, but it's a quick check to shut the ignition off and try cranking while watching the signal on a scope. Good luck!
I had a Mustang Shelby. I work at Ford do the same thing and what had happened was the keyway slot was wider than the keyway and it was causing the balancer to flop around we changed the keyway and the balancer and everything was fine. I’m sure that’s probably not your problem, but I just wanted to share if somebody else had this kind of concern down the roadKiwi slot the balancer was twice the width of the keyway on the crank.
I worked on the Honda Valkyrie quite a bit, occasionally I would run into wheels that would not throw a proper signal on blower equipped engines, I diagnosed this with a Fluke meter and the hall effect test. As SWAG, isolate the wheel from the balancer/engine with a Delrin spacer using nonferrous mounting bolts.
Quick test: see if you have electrical current running between the tone wheel and the block. If it's transient magnetism, it may be an electromagnet effect interfering. (Ah, at 30 mins in you did. Hmmm.)
Damper ring may be magnetized causing trigger wheel distortions in pickup signal. If so it can be demagnetized by wrapping in wire and connected to a low voltage AC source like a variac.
When the engine was suspended in the air the customer said 'this is the same as in the dyno', well not quite as in SM's shop it was hooked up to the dyno shaft every test. Good video as always!!
If you have any battery tender/charger on the dyno battery a square wave from the charger might interfere. Also, stress relieving iron bar like the crank or balancer the banging to do so could magnetize a portion of it. Hammer forging can also make iron molecules line up in other words be magnetic.
You have continuity between your crank sensor ground and your chassis ground. When you ground the starter winding it corrupts the signal on the crank sensor. You need to isolate the sensor earth completely from the chassis earth. You could quickly confirm this by plugging the crank sensor into the cam sensor wiring and reading the oscilloscope on the cam channel.
@@jeffreydurham5342 I did not hear that until end of video. Doesn't mean I am wrong. New sensors can even be bad. But it was proven in his video when sensor was held they had signal. The only other variable is they were not using starter circuit. So the issue could of been while cranking interrupting signal. Be it voltage drop or possibly alternator a/c noise introduced while cranking. Having a oscilloscope on wires would of told a lot. When the car was at home shop a different starting system was probably used. I believe Steve's dyno provides starter most of time at his shop.
@@rcsnowball several sensors shorted to housing? I think you are wrong, I have no "proof" but he showed more than one would work as long as it wasn't on the engine.
Hey Steve do you have a mechanical crank apparatus you can try on that engine with no rpm’s? I’d almost bet money it would have signal then one of your videos a ls4 maybe Ls6 motor was back feeding through the drive shaft causing intermittent crank signal if I recall correctly but in this case if a sensor internally was bad and shorted open it could be feeding hot signal into the drive shaft cause the magnetic fields to be blank as if they’re not magnetic anymore while in motion
Dyno starter motor is throwing ground ripple into the block or the crankshaft through the flexplate. When the crank is spinning it IS NOT grounded because of the bearings oil film. Isolate the reluctor wheel from the balancer and shield the crank pickup wiring.
He tried that. Didn't work. I suspect the sensor wiring or grounds in general are not what is expected, especially considering it's not his own harness. And it worked fine before and after this fiasco in customers car.
In typical circuit analysis, an opto-isolator circuit can short closed and appear normal in all aspects until you try to operate it. An opto-isolator is a tiny circuit that translates a signal via a light beam, this allows a usable signal that is unaffected by other grounding issues with any other components.
I believe the cart you have the motor mounted to needs a dedicated ground like in the car the frame is grounded via a strap so the motor mounts complete the circuit
@@Kevin_Ruz i wish i had a good one. Your guess is as good as any ive read in here. I was just wondering what could be so different in their shop from SM shop and dyno. Its a weird issue that i bet they will figure out, i hope.
@@Kevin_Ruz Okay before I watch the rest of the video. I work a lot with magnetism so this is curious. One something is magnetized or two an electrical current is forming a electromagnet which will it be.
@@warrenmichael918 yep I agree. Only other thing can think of, something in the shop causing interference with the sensor, backfeeding in though the dyno. At work, I can see it on my automated UT machines that aren't on filtered power. With erounious signals passing through the ac lines from other equipment
Not sure if I missed it, did you try electrically isolating the sensor bracket? add a ground wire beside the twisted pair of the sensor only connected at one end to avoid ground looping? grasping at straws too!
Theory: The ecu and battery are not grounded to the block properly. When you mount the sensor, one leg of the sensor is grounded to the block. You have noise transmitted on one of the line to the sensor.
@@kontakt4321 but the sensor head isn't grounded to the engine when they're holding it by hand. Run a strap from engine to pickup, run drill and crank engine.
My thought - watching the engine crank in the car, noticed that the negative battery cable appeared to be grounded to the motor plate right next to the starter - so starting current was not flowing through the block. If your dyno negative cable was grounded elsewhere then current could flow through the block and/or accessory brackets, etc. creating a stray magnetic field - but only when the starter was drawing current! When you spin the tone wheel with a drill the starter is not drawing any current and would not be creating the field. Suggestion: Tape the positive and negative battery cables together from the battery and connect both directly to the starter. This eliminates any current loops that could create a stray magnetic field. Also: retry your "drill test" as the engine is spun over using the starter (theoretically re-creating the stray magnetic fields). Cheers from Dan in Phoenix!
@Steve Morris Engines ^This is most likely your problem, the starter current is flowing through the block and or crank. Place the engine ground on the starter bolt so the current flows directly from the positive post through the starter windings back to battery ground.
Steve - to add to my first comment - as you know, the starter current peaks then dips as each cylinder reaches TDC on compression. the resulting stray magnetic fields would pulse in a similar fashion. If this is what's happening the timed stray pulses would really confuse the ECU!
I see a notable difference between tests. In the "manual" test you moved the crank sensor... its no longer touching the engine (block) at the same physical point. If the sensor has any exposed conductive material (molded bushings too) that contacts metal (block) when mounted, take a resistance reading from those potential points to the sensor leads. Any reading other than infinity makes the sensor susceptible to stray currents/eddies. A mediocre oscilloscope could make this type of problem easier to diagnose.
Try removing the magnetic wheel and leave the sensor in place and spin the motor. read the oscilloscope program. That will show you if you have any magnetic readings coming from the crank or balancer if you see any noise in the scope you have residuals magnetism in the system
My thoughts exactly. Also they didn't isolate the sensor (could have made a plastic or non conductive mount, it would have ran but not the answer.. Also He mentioned a earth ground connected to the battery ground? I don't see the need or completely understand. Could be related.
Take the spark plugs out once when your cranking it. Ive had weird issues like that before on big inch high compression motors and inconsistent cranking rpms on the dyno. Most cases when that happens on the dyno a 4 magnet trigger wheel works best. Simple and easy to check.
Crankshaft is magnetized. You said the had the engine in the car for mockup, if they welded around the engine it is easy todo especially if you have a bad ground or the ground cable in the wrong spot. You can get sheets that shows magnetic fields and some are sensitive than a magnetic compass
I noticed you all focused a lot on the wheel and its grounding. Did you all try isolating the pick-up sensor? For example, can you find a way to rubberize the sensor mount so it can't ground out? I do feel it's a grounding issue or as you all said, some kind of sensor interference. Did you try mounting the wheel on the engine and try holding the sensor in your hand? If that worked, it would let you know it's the sensor grounding
Makes zero difference if the sensor is "grounded". It's a two wire sensor, with the two wires going only to the pickup coil inside of the sensor. "Ground" is nothing to the sensor
After watching the entire video, have you tried the drill method while running the starter? series wired starter motors make a ton of electrical noise. see my other post. the starter seems to be the one constant.
He did try that. Didn't start the engine and then engage the wheel. Not sure if that's the problem though. If it was, the beginning signal might be lost only if the starter is running, but if the signal is being received, it doesn't interrupt it?
weld chassis with electronics installed? just watched the update... i was wondering as it worked removed, makes sense as if i remember correctly when i did my Driveshaft pickup, had to make sure i got the correct pickup.
Clearly the crankshaft was manufactured with a combination of metals including expensium and unobtaium. And some dingbat for some reason did a standard magma flux test. However they forgot that this vehicle will require a flux capacitor. Which would have neutralized the magnetic quandary that they accidentally created. Seems like a no brainer to me. Especially since they are clearly trying to build a space time disrupter like you have.
Hi Steve. Try running a separate sensor cable to the Fuel Tech ECU where the wire is extra long and is routed around the engine. I suspect the cable is routed near a device that is causing the noise, - Tim Lee
Have you taken the wheel off (eliminate the signal) and tried to start it? If the oscilloscope is still showing a corrupted signal or noise you can start looking at the starting system.
The answer to this video is in the next video, go watch the next video after this one. The answer is there.
Do we get a prize if we got it right? I said earths. 👍
Strange things happen to some metals when checking for cracks
I called the sensor wiring difference between vehicle and dyno. Glad it got sorted.
Steve, I have not watched your next video yet, but my guess is that your dirty ckp signal is due to the high starter current draw "bleeding" into the block affecting your computer ground reference. I would try relocating the battery ground to the starter case.
Not a earth ground
Sensor ground swap
As an electrical engineer...
I'm pretty confidant that when you mount the sensor to the block, you're getting a ground lift.
That is to say, they did something silly and grounded the case of the sensor to the sensor ground. Sensor ground should ALWAYS bet separate from your engine ground. Something is likely leaking current into your engine ground and the metal case of the sensor is then connecting to your motor ground and the current is enough to lift the sensor ground, thus the voltage delta seen from no magnet to magnet there is not enough to be seen by the detector circuit all the time, and you get intermittent readings.
Isolate the metal case of the sensor from the engine block, and make sure your sensor ground is not tied to your engine ground and I bet she'll pick up the RPM signal cleanly.
That's what I think. Something related to the ground and the harness.
But they replaced the harness sensors and ECU
That was the test they missed. They should have run the drill trigger with the sensor mounted on the block when the dampner was off. Sensor works when not grounded in their hand.
When he’s checking continuity on the sensor you can see the wires running parallel. Those should be a twisted pair or you can get back emf, yeah?
How do you get Steve to pin this comment? This is 100% correct.
Residual magnetism from the mfg process on the crank or the balancer . You can check it with a gauss meter.
That was exactly my thought some kind of magnetism in the crank
This. Probably from what they magafluxed the crank. They didnt run it through the demag process properly.
@ I’ve seen it many times in person. We actually had specs in the transportation industry for residual magnetism in machined parts used in electric traction motors, gear boxes and control equipment.
But that doesn’t explain why it works in the car ?
@ maybe the steel frame was dampening the magnetism that is a good question
I'm not there, so this is just conjecture based on experience around dynos as an instrumentation engineer many years ago. My guess is that the engine control system ground is not directly connected to the battery negative terminal, but rather to the engine block or somewhere upstream from the starter negative. If that's the case, then the controller ground "floats" when the starter rotates due to the voltage drop across the cable from starter negative to battery negative. If you were to use an oscilloscope to measure between battery negative and starter negative, there will be a voltage drop and probably significant spikes as the starter brushes make and break during rotation. Let's say the pickup puts out a zero to 5 volt signal as it passes the flying magnet. If the controller ground reference is no longer zero volts due to hash from the starter, the controller essentially doesn't see the pulse. It's possible that between brush make/break that the ground reference is stable and a few pulses might be read.
Is it possible to use an impact tool to crank the engine without using the starter. Maybe remove the plugs to relieve compression and see if the RPM signal is detected. If it is, then the problem is probably as stated above. Alternatively, use a second battery to only crank the starter.
Finally, compare the dyno harness and how everything is connected vs the setup in the vehicle. Pay particular attention to how the various system grounds are routed. I've been there and I feel your pain!
Engine has to be magnetized somehow. Take a compass and put it near the engine and see where north is. Bet it points to the engine all the time. Might need to degauss the engine. Sometimes happens to airplane engines when struck by lighting as in the prop get hits. Just my two cents.
Have you changed the sensor at the crank ?
Engine is becoming a magnet 🧲when you go to start
100% agree
I have seen this too. Many years ago had an engine eating rods and mains. The crank had a slight magnetism to it. It was holding some fillings in the the oil gap. Acting as a very fine sand paper.
ive never heard of this
It’s good to see better men than me struggle with crazy problems forever just like I do. Thanks for posting this video Steve. I’ve lost countless hours and dollars in similar situations.
I found whenever something weird like this would happen. It always seems to be a ground issue. Make sure you have plenty of ground hooked to the ECU, starter and engine block to the dyno. Test to see if the crank trigger wire is getting power during crank. Some are 5 volt and some are 12 to the ECU. Double check there is no plating insulating the grounds. Unless I missed it one thing I didn’t see you do is hold the crank trigger without touching the block and crank it over. Then touch the crank trigger to the block and turn it over and see if you lose signal. That would seem to be a bad ground issue. Also a bad mechanical starter solenoid can cause that as well. Or not wiring a starter solenoid correctly. An old school starter solenoid will feed power to the ignition and starter but nothing else during crank if wired correctly. Not sure if your using one of those.
These types of crank trigger sensors don't use any input power. They simply generate their own signal from the magnet flying past a coil of wire.
Have come across this before, corrupted crankshaft position sensor signal during cranking. Lots of electrical noise during cranking. It was the starter motor. The mica had not been undercut properly between the commutator bars, and the brushes were arcing as they skipped off the mica
This is my thought too, giant rotation magnetic field in the starter.
Thats a good guess as well!
That’s exactly what my guess was
Came here to say the starter
@@JDBoudreaux616 and they just put a new starter on that dyno a couple videos ago.
Damn. You split costs with them ?? You’re a good business man and stand by your work. A dying breed
Not a dying breed. You just need to watch who you deal with. I run my business the same. If it's my fault then it's on me. Cant charge the customer for things out of the ordinary
@ I’m also a solo business owner, also The same way. But there are way too many shady businesses that lack that integrity
My business mission statement: “Nobody gets paid, until everyone’s happy!” 🙂
Split the cost? I think he said he was gunna eat the 1.5 days since he didn’t get it dynoed
@ yeah. But he said originally he split the costs on the repair and dyno
7:42 Your wheel is grounding out! That sounds like a wiring issue. Check wiring harness. I had same issue when i did a custom engine swap on my Mustang. Hope this helps. Love the videos! Thank You Steve for all your knowledge that you share with us all!
I think Steve learns as much from the comments as we do the videos so that’s awesome
Just isolate the magnet itself not the whole wheel
pretty sure he learns more if reading everything. but who has the time? especially when the majooority of comments are a total waste of time. but even sifting through the endless dung... u can simply not compare the amount of memory and knowledge capacity of one man vs x.
I don't think so,everyone has their own opinion, probably just more confusing.
Ford had an issue with starter motors a few years back. it put out a wave signal within electrical system that neutralized the crank sensors signal.. loving your work here be good to find problem.
I had the small wires on my BMW starter flip flopped. The exciter wire and the constant (small 14 gauge wires not the big power wires. ) It would start and run, but screwy. Cam/crank errors. Abs and traction control issues. Reverted to batch fire from sync errors.
I can't imagine a stock type Ford starter on a thumper like that.
My thought exactly. Its the only component that changed out of the car.
It can't affect the type of crank trigger sensor like what is used here, that uses no input power from the cars 12 volt system. The sensor is simply a generator that creates its own signal from the magnet passing by the coil of wire inside of it. It's totally seperate from the car's 12 volt system
Well, I can't speak to car systems but ... with factory automation control systems, we required one ground point at the cabinet. A phrase I remember for a shielded cable, "ground the shield in the cabinet, open in the field". Meaning, when you have a shielded sensor or control signal "in the field", you leave the shield open and not grounded (except at the one point in the cabinet). When you have multiple grounds, you have "ground-loops" which gives different "ground references" and confuses the system.
With both ends of the shield grounded, you've created a Faraday antenna
Yeah I’ve been there wiring ab vfds
Ground-loops was also what I was thinking.
I've never used flying magnets as crank trigger, but most of the times I've seen noisy crank signals with other EFI systems it has had something to do with ground.
Either a ground loop in the shielding or incorrect grounding of the shielding or the sensor.
Yeah I have had to unhook the shield on one end of a cable several times…
Magnetized crankshaft?
It appears that Hall Effect sensor Vcc and GND are flipped in the dyno setup. Easy check would be connect Hall Effect sensor pigtail to your wire harness and isolate it from its mount (12VDC GND). Power ECU and measure DC voltage between metal sensor body and mount, or to test without engine measure to the ECU source 12VDC GND.
Reason it works when sensor is isolated from its mount is the Hall Effect sensor will also operate with negative DC voltage source. Once the Hall Effect sensor is mounted to the engine the sensor case which is at ~Vcc is dead shorted to the source 12VDC GND. At this point the Hall Effect sensor is essentially unpowered. The Hall Effect sensor is current limited to 20mA max which is relatively small and does not cause any excessive heating or damage to the ECU or wire harness.
There is no issue with the magnetic trigger wheel. Isolating it has no effect.
@@TheresaBailey-z9m 3/4 inch spacer isn't isolating it.
UR comment was it.
These types of crank trigger sensors do NOT require any power to operate..... they are simply 2 wires that come directly from the pickup coil inside of it. They create their signal simply from the magnet flying past the isolated pickup coil inside of it... Totally isolated from the 12 volt system of the car.
So that can NOT be what's happening.
The crank is still magnetically charged from the mag particle testing so it’s turning the whole balancer and wheel into a magnet so you aren’t ever getting a clean signal
One last stab… I know you car guys think in terms of “ground” but us audio guys also deal with “floating” signals that work off “deltas”. My guess here is that it may be possible that the sensor should NOT BE GROUNDED [only the shielding?? If any?]. and that if you ground one side of the sensor line you effectively dump the induced voltage change to ground meaning you get no pulse! In a floating situation the input channel would have 2 connections [and maybe even a 3rd which would be a shielding ground] almost exactly like we have in an [audio] XLR it’s called a Balanced input! Again a complete guess LOL
The thing everyone usually overlooks is EMI/EMF noise. (Prob not in this case). They should ALWAYS be using dual shielded cable for both pickup and ignition cables. Braided and aluminum foil wrap etc wire with an independent bare drain wire running through it. The drain wire needs to be grounded separately to catch any interference. In some cases a few 50 cent magnetic ferrites snapped on the cable will also be worth trying. They should also look into running Multi-Fire brand plug wires they are the a absolute best wire with the lowest resistance of any wire on the market. These wires are sooo good you cannot put a timing light on the car because the clamp will never pickup the spark signal. You literally need to use a junky MSD or moroso wire to time. It’s the best wire to insure your not getting noise from your plug wires.
I agree dame good guess
The common line of the sensor is probably tied to the case. They have the common and + swapped.
Ground loop BS can't stand it.
I think Studio51media (and others) is on to something. (Former substation commissioning engineer here) In the field we had many 0-20 mA and 4-20 mA loops for analog signals. Also, there was a fair amount of SCADA equipment with DB9, RS232/485 stuff. Simple 2 and 3 wire mA loop cables and the DB9 cables were shielded. Often the signals were sensitive to proper cabling and shielding. Some (shields) grounded on one end, some the other and some both ends - depended on the equipment, manufacturer, situation etc. Good luck, I'm sure you've found it already but props to you for showing the failure and transparency...refreshing to see.
You might check out the coils. I had a random misfire caused by eddy currents set up by bad coils in a ford coil on plug system. Caused a lot of headaches. Nevermind I think it would not have kept happening with the coils disconnected.
Coils with bad windings will cause a high resistance short that won't be easily detected. I think your right this is the problem.
Is the dyno starter creating some sort of interference/signal? Just thinking about what's different between the car and dyno. Can't wait to see the solution.
he cracked the engine while spinning the wheel with the drill confirming it want the starter.
it is not the trigger wheel that is being interfered with, but the sensor itself is what is picking up the interference.
No
Your Such an Amazing Man and Business Owner for doing so much for your customers and taking losses like this and posting it!! Your absolutely priceless to this industry and sport We Love!!!
I do not know about the crank signal issues, but your hole punch set has a pilot in the kit for every hole size to keep your shim centered. 😉
Steve... please, please keep doing these videos. (As long as you can afford to mentally and financially) im currently going thru a wiring demon, or something since hurricane Helen my ford van (witch is my home) has been undrivable. Water hit 24 ' high witch is 8' above my van.( normally 4') We had to get towed to high ground and then started fixing the demon. Im not a racer cant repay you for this kind of video or any kind of video to be honest. But 9 weeks in and still along side the river not running... i too am at a loss. Still along side the river bank.. Been thru everything I can afford.. $250- $300 in parts,$100 in towing that I just didn't have. Took this long to try and find any repeatable issue. Even with codes its been a FAIL. 1989 E350 5.8 134K on the clock. Super clean but also great boat anchor at this point. Still no light in or out of the tunnel. I know our worlds are to far apart to matter.... but damn I love to learn from someone who cares! THANK YOU, YOUR FAMILY/TEAM FOR CAREING. its not only customers or deep pocket racers that watch you! GOD BLESS YOU AND YOURS OVER THE HOLIDAYS & LIFE.
Have you replaced all computers? Ecm, bcm ect?
@dannymccraw4841 I have replaced the following after texting with scanner danner on youtube, reading codes, and doing own research. Tps, both coolant sensors, map sensor, distibutor module, plugs, wires, and cleaned cap and rotor. Been a fight becouse all codes coming in are the parts ive already bought and then replaced under warranty twice over. All thats left are the computer with possible bad leaking diodes, or the pic up in distributor. Your thoughts? Symptoms are... starts ok, but them as it warms up it has a heavy electrical shunt(miss) that eventually makes it die. Last codes was again faulty tps under 4.6 v then another one i hadn't seen yet. Eps or something. May do with egr?( was aggravated didn't pay much attention and quite for the day)
I did set tps voltage when installed.. drilled out to make it read correctly.
@@nodotoroam anytime a vehicle is flooded it’s a nightmare, but I’d have absolutely replaced all computers first( I’d have replaced all electrical censors and computer)
The board and components can be compromised as such you can get false codes , ghost codes because of water damage. At least get an ecm and see if most of your codes go away. Then if so get the bcm for body controls to function properly hopefully anyway, window regulators could be ok for a while ect.
@@dannymccraw4841 this van never seen floods.. 100% not flood. We had it towed to higher groung before the storm. We just couldn't get it to start to move it. After towed to higher ground I started on the issue. Replaced the distibutor module that got it to start. However it was low on power missing and didn't seem to run well after warm. I had already did plugs wires and cap for i was there and it needed them for maintenance also replaced temp gauge sensor for it not working. Then found bad wire so that was money gone but thankfull for it was fixed. So was never wet other then rain.everthing on van works.. power locks windows everthing.. just not running well. Again never seen more then a puddle. Not flood.sorry for confution.
Ground the sensor to the engine and try the drill thing again.
@@buddybrown4903 I wondered the same thing but haven't made it through the whole video yet. I think it's a combo of the engine needing degaussed and the sensor grounding out on the bracket/block.
Had an issue couple years ago with a car I put together where the engine would crank up and run fine then just go haywire and not want to rev or act right at all. Kept messing with it and messing with it. Got a friend to come over to put another set of eyes on it, still didn't figure it out, but later that day is when I started to put it together. Talked to a handful of people smarter than me with EFI stuff and got nowhere with that. Finally got another friend to look at a couple datalogs of the engine running smooth and the engine not running smooth. He noticed in an RPM trace in areas in the data that equaled less than a second in time that the RPM trace was erratic. From that I figured out that the engine only acted crazy when the cooling fan was on, which I should have picked up before because I could cold start it and the engine acted fine, but as soon as it warmed up and the fan kicked on it wouldn't run fine. People didn't want to believe me, but the PIP sensor in the distributor was picking up on electronic noise from the radiator fan. I sourced a couple original distributors with original sensors in them and with those the engine ran fine. Put the aftermarket distributor in and as soon as the fan came on it wouldn't run correctly.
First it was the Big Black Hemi, and now weird Ford issues. Well, you're the right man for the job Steve.
Man that is weird, starts in the car, starts with the engine isolated but not on the Dyno, I have to say you tried everything you could. I'm sure there is something valuable to learn in the end though so thanks for sharing Steve!
Even Steve Morris can't make a Ford run. lol
lol!!!😂😂
I was about to say, the problem is obvious! 😂
That's why it's known as a Fix Or Repair Daily. 😉
circled the problem
That's exactly why all the really fast mustang guys have an LS engine under their hood..... 😂
Had a similar issue with a Hall effect driveshaft sensor, put plastic washers between the bracket and nuts (it wasn’t a threaded bracket) and that fixed it.
The wiring harness is the only part different in the car vs the dyno. I would run an external twisted pair wire harness to the pick up sensor. The wire twist is critical to keep out noise. Keep the whole wire run away from any dyno wiring for a test. If you had a scope directly connected to the pick up wire you would figure this out fast.
Maybe reversing leads on the sensor so ground could be in ground. They might have their cable reversed compared to the one on the Dino
We can only hope it is that cheap and simple!
Did you try cranking directly with a separate battery and separate leads while it was in the test rig? Did you have a way to spin the motor without using the starter? Was the starter ground connected differently in the test rig from when it was in the car, for example via the chassis instead of direct to the engine block? Any common current paths to the ECU and starter grounds? I'd try a multi-channel storage scope to look at the sensor signal voltage relative to the block, starter body and controller signal return and protective ground. I guess you could have 3D printed a magnet wheel to check if there really was a problem with the wheel being conductive, but I can't think of a mechanism that would cause spurious signals that way. Great creative problem-solving skills there though!
Place or hold a compass close & centered to the crank bolt & hit the starter….see if the compass pointer deflects with the crank turning
Clearly the magnetic pick up is shorted through its case. Hold the pick up in your hand while cranking (like you do when spinning the wheel with a drill) and I'll bet you get a signal.
Yeah clearly! Idiot. Man! Why dont you guys just stop thinking and listen to this guy. Cause, CLEAELY thats the issue. There. Fixed.
That was my guess, yes
I thought they'd tried a few different sensors though?
He did that and no signal
Or it could be the firmware difference in ECUs or maybe the type of pickup that it’s registered in ecu
We had our car do that 2 different times, one we had nothing on cranking but signal rolling it over by hand . Roll it over by hand hooked to the ballancer, and the other was we pinched a wire on a bracket and it sent low voltage through the motor . Not enough to notice but just enough to mess with the crank trigger
Is the crank magnetized?
I was thinking the same thing.
@@tiredofit1235 also thinking that
Lots of us have the same thoughts 😝😝😝😝! Except it ran in the car 🤷🤷🤷🤷?
I agree
I agree also. It almost has to be.
Crank bolt magnetized or crank itself? That would be my guess.
Seeing as how it worked in the car before and after getting no crank signal in the dyno room, I'd have to call it a ground issue. People think of grounds like on or off, but there are several amps of power running through ground when you crank/run an engine and the crank pickup is reading milliamps so just a tiny bit of current flow from an oxidized or bad ground could mess up the signal. When your multimeter says something is grounded, that doesn't guarantee the connection is strong enough to carry strong signals like powering the starter and miniscule signals like a crank sensor. It really depends on the ECU software how it reads a "dirty" signal so even the "working" readout in the car could fail at an extreme like a full throttle drag pull. I'd be wary of running the engine in the car until you know why it didn't work in the dyno room because you don't want whatever was bad in the dyno room to spring up at peak horsepower. Check every ground and, if needed, add new grounds. Batteries to engine to ECU to heads to whatever the crank pickup is mounted to. Don't connect all the grounds in a star topology, like all going to one giant connector and instead spread them out so multiple connections like a ground strap from engine to battery and a different ground from engine to ECU and maybe run a ground wire to whatever the pickup is mounted to? You said it was the same wiring harness, but I'd check all the connectors and wires from the crank sensor back to the ECU to make sure something isn't getting a bad connection or short to ground.
TL;DR I'd be cautious if it "works" in the car in case whatever the problem in the dyno room shows up in the middle of a run and you lose crank signal at peak power and open unnecessary inspection ports in the block.
Is the crank shaft heavily magnetized?
As a Australian . My guess i the watchamacalit interfering with the thingamajig 😳
Na, it's the thingymabob!
wobble pin fell out of the wiggle joint while the muffler bearings rusted
We have never had problems with the thingamajig I the US lol
its the only logical answer!
No, it's the flux capacitor.
@CCTec is correct, and added can be heating steel can cause metals to magnetize. Also, to check for cracks, the metals are magnetized in the process. Most likely this is the cause and unfortunately you'll need to have that removed by the system. But most likely once it's heated it'll go away.
STEVE- the issue is a small electrical current (like a possible injector or distributor short) that's affecting your magnetic pickup but isn't measurable on a scope. Wrap a piece of masking tape around the balance wheel and start that beast. This can help you observe inconsistencies in timing or pickup signals. Pay particular attention to wires and connections around the injectors and distributor. This method might help isolate the issue and is a good old-school mechanic's trick! Good luck hunting down that elusive electrical gremlin-hope it earns me a free T-shirt LOL
Better get that Ford out of there before contaminates everything just kidding put a couple carburetors on top of that damn thing a regular distributor and a little ignition box and hit the key
wondering if it's possible the ECU got swapped? vs dyno as the car might have one working and steve's has a bad-cap/bio software, not a programmer millwright&automotive shop repairs/other in it, and yes vs cap/rotor and or carbs repairs/R&R this is a super rare-failure mode-pathways but does happen and rob-dom/RX7-RUclips channel/racing-llc had 3~by now go-out and or weird wiring-failure's so that's one more resource for morris-engineering to talk to
had a ( fixing was around 2009~era ) Chrysler convertible 2006~ 2.7-V6 auto with similarly problematic but the owners decided to scrapping it so it never got fixed and it was minty other than it wouldn't stay-running/starting-consistently
Did you unplug that damn nitrous system, it was a big shock to your equipment!
That answer won't earn you a t-shirt, because that is NOT what's happening..
You need some magnetic paper /sheets. It is green and when placed on something magnetic it shows the fields. Amazing tool to have. It's like having xray vision in magnetic fields.
Came here to say this !
Try shielding both cam and crank sensor wiring back up to the connector.
23:00 heat shrink the shank of the bolt next time for testing purposes. Quick and easy.
I was thinking a quick wrap of electrical tape.
Or use nylon bolts.
@@jennajones2155 I think they would sheer off with a slight imbalance in the Wheel, let alone deacceleration from anything over 2000rpm on a single pull on the dyno. They let us know they found the issue in a members only video, so stay tuned for the update on that engine 👍
Whole crank sounds like it's magnetized
I was reading throught the coments to make sure someone didnt already suguest this!
Sorry for all your trouble but it does make me feel a little better watching a Pro go thru what we the average person freaks out about all the time . Praying for you to have wisdom to figure it out in the future .
Wow, never been this frustrated at someone else's problem, hope i find out by end of this video , for your sake and mine ,God Bless !!!!
If Steve can't do it, just imagine how we shade tree mechanics suffer. Always SOMETHING
Hell just being a technician in general is rough when it comes to doing dings. 1 hour of diag to start on some sorta BS intermittent problem that will definitely send you down the rabbit hole.
Shadetree Mechanic😂😂😂😂😂. What you mean is parts replacer.
Yea, I was thinking the same thing. I’d be pulling my hair out.
@@AnarchyMotorsports306lots of fun chasing a 2 cent problem costing thousands every hour the machine is down 😖
I normally end up in a muddy field, a tree would be nice.
My experiences working on vehicles in stupid places that are well beyond end of life have helped solve issues mates have in their nice shiny workshops.
Hi Steve , the crankshaft could be pulling the magnetism out of the damper, try reading the damper off the crank then put a steel rod into the damper to see if it neutralizes the magnetism, hope this helps , good luck.
Ain't got no gas.... Slingblade reference ftw.
@@jimmanis6717 thanks.
Just going to say the same thing lol.😂
This should be the top comment it’s the first thing I thought lol
You seem well educated.........
Many years ago I was working at a Firestone store. Had a car towed in that was hard to startup, Fran rough and got pathetic fuel mileage. This was a carburetor engine with electronic ignition. Customer had his car at his cottage and would not start. Local garage found it had defective pickup coil so they replaced it and sent customer back to Toronto with it. After 300km and two tanks of fuel the car was very hard to start, ran rough and got very poor fuel mileage so he had it towed in the last 200km.
Firestome back then had Allen Smart Scopes in all company owned stores. I connected the scope and started the engine. First thing it showed me was 14 cylinders firing. I have always taken the attitude that whatever is wrong will so basic and simple the I don't bother wasting time by using the "by guess, by golly" method of diagnosis. I looked at the 14 cylinders appearing on the scope and figured that must be 8 cylinders and 6 cylinders somehow combined. Since the spacings were the same distance apart whoever changed the pickup coil must have put the pickup coil from a 90 degree Chevy V6. I took the cap off and sure enough it had the V6 pickup coil along with the v8 reluctlr. Changed it back to correct parts and everything returned to normal. I spent less than an hour on that car and explained that I had never seen or heard of that even happening. Customer complained to Firestone that since I had never seen that before I must be a poor/inexperidnced mechanic that obviously didn't know what I was doing by not scamming him. Firestone refunded him his entire invoice,. 0.75 hrs labour plus retail cost of Echlin pickup coil.
Point is start at the very basics. I would have gone through install./zetjp guide for the Ford paying attention to the difference between gm and Ford. Your solution will be simple.
Keep it simple stupid! :) or stupid simple
It sounds like you’re receiving some sort of ground through the crank. I’d be curious to see what you got if you connected a multi meter to the crank bolt.
No
I had something similar happen to my BMW. I had the switched 12 volt and the full 12 volt signals to the starter relay backwards. (Two small 14? gauge wires, not the big power wires) Car would start and run fine, but it had screwy gremlins and ghost codes. (Reverted to batch fire due to sync errors) I believe one is the "exciter wire" and the other small wire is the 12volt. They were flip flopped.
This.
It even tripped out my abs and my traction control some how. ( Only real reason I finally found it. )
@@jasonschreiber6458Not "this"
EE student here, with this things its really hard to say something meaningful without being present because with Electronics its the little details that kill you.
Having said that, it seemed that whatever it was it had to do with the blocks connection to ground, as if you notice every time it worked it wasn't mounted to the block.
btw isolating the magnet side wouldn't ever change anything as a voltage / connection on the wheel doesn't affect the magnet's fields which is what the sensor picks up.
Btw a son of a small business i also seen these frustrating days when we just have to "swallow some frogs" as we say here in Portugal but its the right thing to do. Thanks for what you do
Always great to see someone doing right for his fellow men.
Swallowing frogs im stealing that for sure!!
I think this guy is on to something. It did seem to work when the sensor itself was not mounted to the block.
Check for voltage drop or voltage differential from direct battery ground to block, starter, coil gound, injector harness ground and front crank trigger mount. Try having harness and ECU not mounted to anything to dyno, just laying separately on the floor and see what the RPM signal is then.
Non resistor plugs/ plug wires can cause enough noise in the pickup wiring to screw up the ECM. Not sure if you have the ignition when you are cranking, but it's a quick check to shut the ignition off and try cranking while watching the signal on a scope.
Good luck!
@@scottmarshall6766 msd ignition actually sends a paper with the ignition about this. This is definitely a potential cause for his issue.
By chance was the crank magnafluxed for cracks and not demagnetized after the process.
I HAVE had spark plug wires with too LOW of an ohms/foot number that HAS messed with digital electronics on the vehicle....
If you crank it while the crank has some sort of magnetism, it would act like an induction motor and create an even more magnetic field.
When you crank the motor it applies current (battery voltage) through the motor going back to negative creating a rotor and stater effect
And it wouldn't run in the car, which it does.
@@budogaz7685HAS nothing to do with that
I had a Mustang Shelby. I work at Ford do the same thing and what had happened was the keyway slot was wider than the keyway and it was causing the balancer to flop around we changed the keyway and the balancer and everything was fine. I’m sure that’s probably not your problem, but I just wanted to share if somebody else had this kind of concern down the roadKiwi slot the balancer was twice the width of the keyway on the crank.
I worked on the Honda Valkyrie quite a bit, occasionally I would run into wheels that would not throw a proper signal on blower equipped engines, I diagnosed this with a Fluke meter and the hall effect test. As SWAG, isolate the wheel from the balancer/engine with a Delrin spacer using nonferrous mounting bolts.
Quick test: see if you have electrical current running between the tone wheel and the block. If it's transient magnetism, it may be an electromagnet effect interfering. (Ah, at 30 mins in you did. Hmmm.)
Degaussing the crankshaft and front harmonic balancer ....
Damper ring may be magnetized causing trigger wheel distortions in pickup signal.
If so it can be demagnetized by wrapping in wire and connected to a low voltage AC source like a variac.
When the engine was suspended in the air the customer said 'this is the same as in the dyno', well not quite as in SM's shop it was hooked up to the dyno shaft every test.
Good video as always!!
The flux capacitor is not bluetoothing to the motherboard
I think it is 5 or 6 jigg o watts low
If you have any battery tender/charger on the dyno battery a square wave from the charger might interfere. Also, stress relieving iron bar like the crank or balancer the banging to do so could magnetize a portion of it. Hammer forging can also make iron molecules line up in other words be magnetic.
Magnetized crank?
Your drill has a max rpm of around 380 something,,, atleast we learned something,,,,
Just testing on low. Higher speed equals higher torque. If you've ever used a giant hole saw, you'll know what I mean.
You have continuity between your crank sensor ground and your chassis ground. When you ground the starter winding it corrupts the signal on the crank sensor.
You need to isolate the sensor earth completely from the chassis earth.
You could quickly confirm this by plugging the crank sensor into the cam sensor wiring and reading the oscilloscope on the cam channel.
Put it on a oscilloscope and see if there is a lot of noise. Alternator first and then starter.
Exactly my thought. Osiliscope will pick a lot of signals that you may only be guessing at or lack of signal.
Crank sensor winding is shorted to housing. When you use drill the sensor is in your hand and not mount.
I
He stated they tried several sensors, hall effect, inductive ect. Did you even watch the video?
@@jeffreydurham5342 I did not hear that until end of video. Doesn't mean I am wrong. New sensors can even be bad. But it was proven in his video when sensor was held they had signal. The only other variable is they were not using starter circuit. So the issue could of been while cranking interrupting signal. Be it voltage drop or possibly alternator a/c noise introduced while cranking. Having a oscilloscope on wires would of told a lot. When the car was at home shop a different starting system was probably used. I believe Steve's dyno provides starter most of time at his shop.
@@rcsnowball yes it does prove you are wrong, several sensors with ground issues? This is a very peculiar problem.
@@rcsnowball several sensors shorted to housing? I think you are wrong, I have no "proof" but he showed more than one would work as long as it wasn't on the engine.
Hey Steve do you have a mechanical crank apparatus you can try on that engine with no rpm’s? I’d almost bet money it would have signal then one of your videos a ls4 maybe Ls6 motor was back feeding through the drive shaft causing intermittent crank signal if I recall correctly but in this case if a sensor internally was bad and shorted open it could be feeding hot signal into the drive shaft cause the magnetic fields to be blank as if they’re not magnetic anymore while in motion
Dyno starter motor is throwing ground ripple into the block or the crankshaft through the flexplate. When the crank is spinning it IS NOT grounded because of the bearings oil film. Isolate the reluctor wheel from the balancer and shield the crank pickup wiring.
i think you might be the closest to guessing what is going on, it makes the most sense
He tried that. Didn't work. I suspect the sensor wiring or grounds in general are not what is expected, especially considering it's not his own harness. And it worked fine before and after this fiasco in customers car.
In typical circuit analysis, an opto-isolator circuit can short closed and appear normal in all aspects until you try to operate it. An opto-isolator is a tiny circuit that translates a signal via a light beam, this allows a usable signal that is unaffected by other grounding issues with any other components.
Crank isn’t slightly bent causing the gap to change…. Could you check the gap 360 degrees
Just watched the end never mind
Steve use plastic standoffs to mount it on the crank and try that. In other words, isolate it totally from the engine
Keep watching
Electrical tape to wrap the threads of the bolts? Instead of your spacers
I believe the cart you have the motor mounted to needs a dedicated ground like in the car the frame is grounded via a strap so the motor mounts complete the circuit
It's the FORD. Ferrous Orbiting Rotational Discharging syndrome.
😂
Hey, they circled the problem...
@@gcrauwels941 just what I was thinking
Fuggin owner's really dumb...... 😜
The crank guys didn't demag the crank, after doing a mag particle inspection
then why or how does it start in the car and in their shop suspended above the chassis?
@warrenmichael918 no idea. My guess there is enoght metal around the crank with the cage to control extra mag field
What is your guess?
@@Kevin_Ruz i wish i had a good one. Your guess is as good as any ive read in here. I was just wondering what could be so different in their shop from SM shop and dyno. Its a weird issue that i bet they will figure out, i hope.
@@Kevin_Ruz Okay before I watch the rest of the video. I work a lot with magnetism so this is curious. One something is magnetized or two an electrical current is forming a electromagnet which will it be.
@@warrenmichael918 yep I agree. Only other thing can think of, something in the shop causing interference with the sensor, backfeeding in though the dyno. At work, I can see it on my automated UT machines that aren't on filtered power. With erounious signals passing through the ac lines from other equipment
Not sure if I missed it, did you try electrically isolating the sensor bracket? add a ground wire beside the twisted pair of the sensor only connected at one end to avoid ground looping? grasping at straws too!
Theory: The ecu and battery are not grounded to the block properly. When you mount the sensor, one leg of the sensor is
grounded to the block. You have noise transmitted on one of the line to the sensor.
I don't think a hall effect sensor would work like that. One that was just getting induced voltage might.
They were holding the sensor in their hand though as well not reading, despite reading just fine held by hand against the drill.
Good idea. But this is more of a issue with magnetics being shielded or dampened. Not noise on a line.
@@kontakt4321 but the sensor head isn't grounded to the engine when they're holding it by hand. Run a strap from engine to pickup, run drill and crank engine.
The cam sensor reads correctly though? Very puzzling.
My thought - watching the engine crank in the car, noticed that the negative battery cable appeared to be grounded to the motor plate right next to the starter - so starting current was not flowing through the block. If your dyno negative cable was grounded elsewhere then current could flow through the block and/or accessory brackets, etc. creating a stray magnetic field - but only when the starter was drawing current! When you spin the tone wheel with a drill the starter is not drawing any current and would not be creating the field. Suggestion: Tape the positive and negative battery cables together from the battery and connect both directly to the starter. This eliminates any current loops that could create a stray magnetic field. Also: retry your "drill test" as the engine is spun over using the starter (theoretically re-creating the stray magnetic fields). Cheers from Dan in Phoenix!
This seems the most plausible explanation so far.
@Steve Morris Engines ^This is most likely your problem, the starter current is flowing through the block and or crank. Place the engine ground on the starter bolt so the current flows directly from the positive post through the starter windings back to battery ground.
They "drill Tested" it while cranking the engine with the starter. Why they proceeded to isolate the wheel with rubber.
Steve - to add to my first comment - as you know, the starter current peaks then dips as each cylinder reaches TDC on compression. the resulting stray magnetic fields would pulse in a similar fashion. If this is what's happening the timed stray pulses would really confuse the ECU!
I see a notable difference between tests. In the "manual" test you moved the crank sensor... its no longer touching the engine (block) at the same physical point.
If the sensor has any exposed conductive material (molded bushings too) that contacts metal (block) when mounted, take a resistance reading from those potential points to the sensor leads. Any reading other than infinity makes the sensor susceptible to stray currents/eddies.
A mediocre oscilloscope could make this type of problem easier to diagnose.
Try removing the magnetic wheel and leave the sensor in place and spin the motor. read the oscilloscope program. That will show you if you have any magnetic readings coming from the crank or balancer if you see any noise in the scope you have residuals magnetism in the system
My thoughts exactly. Also they didn't isolate the sensor (could have made a plastic or non conductive mount, it would have ran but not the answer.. Also He mentioned a earth ground connected to the battery ground? I don't see the need or completely understand. Could be related.
Heat shrink sleeve would probably work on the bolts versus trying to punch bushings
Take the spark plugs out once when your cranking it. Ive had weird issues like that before on big inch high compression motors and inconsistent cranking rpms on the dyno. Most cases when that happens on the dyno a 4 magnet trigger wheel works best. Simple and easy to check.
Without watching the whole video, my first guess would be something is causing a magnetic field
That is my thinking as well
Okay...... Crank! Magnitized......
Lol that was the only constant I could think of aswell
Crank and cam are connected and the cam trigger works
Crankshaft is magnetized.
You said the had the engine in the car for mockup, if they welded around the engine it is easy todo especially if you have a bad ground or the ground cable in the wrong spot. You can get sheets that shows magnetic fields and some are sensitive than a magnetic compass
The balancer has Ben magnitize
That would have been my first guess.
They swapped to a aluminum balancer, no diff. Back to steel now.
Might have a blown flux capacitor Marty.
Probably not blown, but those buggers can leak. Maybe needs to be reformed.
Does the car leave a puddle of flux in the driveway when parked?
@@danmenes3143 🤣maybe 👍
I love your videos.I go through these problems with computer controlled transmission ECU.Crazy but time consuming. Learning experiences
I would’ve stopped saying fudge like 20 minutes into it 😎
Ain't got no gas in it
lol could be
I noticed you all focused a lot on the wheel and its grounding. Did you all try isolating the pick-up sensor?
For example, can you find a way to rubberize the sensor mount so it can't ground out?
I do feel it's a grounding issue or as you all said, some kind of sensor interference.
Did you try mounting the wheel on the engine and try holding the sensor in your hand? If that worked, it would let you know it's the sensor grounding
Makes zero difference if the sensor is "grounded". It's a two wire sensor, with the two wires going only to the pickup coil inside of the sensor. "Ground" is nothing to the sensor
@davelowets It turned out part of it WAS the switch ground.
Heat shrink tube on the bolts would have been easier than making the rubber washers.
Great idea
Genius idea honestly
After watching the entire video, have you tried the drill method while running the starter? series wired starter motors make a ton of electrical noise. see my other post. the starter seems to be the one constant.
He did try that. Didn't start the engine and then engage the wheel. Not sure if that's the problem though. If it was, the beginning signal might be lost only if the starter is running, but if the signal is being received, it doesn't interrupt it?
weld chassis with electronics installed? just watched the update... i was wondering as it worked removed, makes sense as if i remember correctly when i did my Driveshaft pickup, had to make sure i got the correct pickup.
Clearly the crankshaft was manufactured with a combination of metals including expensium and unobtaium. And some dingbat for some reason did a standard magma flux test. However they forgot that this vehicle will require a flux capacitor. Which would have neutralized the magnetic quandary that they accidentally created. Seems like a no brainer to me. Especially since they are clearly trying to build a space time disrupter like you have.
The crank is mangatized
Dave here, just saying you and your team do a good job , your videos are great qualty i thank you.
It the pick up wire backwards? So the ground side is not ground?
Hi Steve. Try running a separate sensor cable to the Fuel Tech ECU where the wire is extra long and is routed around the engine. I suspect the cable is routed near a device that is causing the noise, - Tim Lee
Bolt the wheel on using plastic bolts (just as a test) and an insulator in between.
Have you taken the wheel off (eliminate the signal) and tried to start it? If the oscilloscope is still showing a corrupted signal or noise you can start looking at the starting system.