Sonic TALK 484 - Send In The Clones
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- Опубликовано: 13 сен 2024
- Notes - thanks to Marc the Darc:
6:20 - Pink Floyds Console Auction
15:52 - Behringer clone Model D?
30:29 - Sponsor/Contest
32:45 - Deckard’s Dream CS-80 Clone
48:00 - ARP 2600 From Mars
1:02:39 - Nicks Macbook Moan
1:03:59 - Closing Remarks & Goodbyes
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This podcast gets better and better each time!
I loved that opening, Nick! A good laugh is a great way to get the juices flowing for the Sonic Talk Sessions!! Great show!!
One of the best conversations so far. Fantastic. Really good line up. Very informative. I could listen to Dave for days. The only thing missing was one of Ty's brilliant rants. Love it!
The coolest podcast. This is like a pub talk that you can't have with your buddies because they're only into cars, women and football. Finally a pub talk you can have and talk about nothing but recording and synths.
The one aspect they all seem to be forgetting is that 99% of people will never experience playing the original hardware, so the 99% have no previous reference point.. It's kind of like seeing everything through rose tinted glasses.. Just a thought, not a criticism!
I really love your channel, ever video you put out is of the highest quality. Thanks!
Three of my favorite synth journalists in one vid !!! Thanks guys I'v learned so much from all of you :)
Very enjoyable show as ever, interesting viewpoints and depth of perspective that only comes from these experienced chaps
Charles getting almost spiritual with the ghosts in the machines
Notes:
6:20 - Pink Floyds Console Auction
15:52 - Behringer clone Model D?
30:29 - Sponsor/Contest
32:45 - Deckard’s Dream CS-80 Clone
48:00 - ARP 2600 From Mars
1:02:39 - Nicks Macbook Moan
1:03:59 - Closing Remarks & Goodbyes
Rather surprised/amused that Doty, being so tight with Moog, claims you can’t get presets with analogue controls @ 41:44, considering the Moog RAC (Real Analog Control) does exactly that - or so they claim.
But he’s right, so many are trying hard to emulate the sound of something, and completely forget to look at how it feels. As a synth-maker if you’re not going all the way to make a synth all it can be, it might be better to look back at what, and why, you’re creating.
I'm not sure you'd call what I am with Moog Music "tight." :)
I don't know much about RAC, but as far as I know, it was only used on the Little Phattys. With four knobs. My guess is that it was a less-expensive-than-knob-per-function-but-too-expensive-to-do-with-too-many-knobs solution. And exactly how many synths did they use it on after the Little Phatty? :)
Perhaps the wrong choice of words, but you do quite a bit related to them. Not to mention your massive knowledge of synths and synthesis in general ;-)
As far as I've understood the principle behind RAC is a direct true analogue control, but with a digital component latched on outside the direct signal chain, able to read and write the analogue voltage state. Effectively providing the best of both worlds.
These days Moog mostly use high resolution digital control, so you're right it's not widely used. But as far as saying controls have to be digital for there to be presets, I'd say the existence of the technology proves otherwise.
And while it probably is expensive, I'd guess about the combined cost of the same full set of controls done both as analogue and digital, the Little/Slim Phatty was fairly cheap by Moog standards, so that does add a perspective in terms of what should be deemed possible in a 5000$ synth.
Well, certainly, I wasn't saying it was impossible, I was saying that's how it's done.
If this device follows that sort of technological choice, then it will be a step in the right direction for authenticity.
But keep in mind, the RAC technology wasn't reproducing a behavior.
regarding the build quality of Moog: the first Sub37 synths had lots of problems with the keybed and filter
Loved this episode a lot! Great discussion!
Yes, Marc, it is not a REAL CS 80, but not everyone can afford to buy or maintain the original and it allows us non-rockstars to get closer to a legendary piece of gear, even if we don't have the entire experience of all the mechanical idiosyncrasies of the original.
Behringer sits in a nice niche. The music industry is just like the auto-industry. You can pay any price you want for a car. Behringer makes usable stuff. Sometimes they make something that's pretty notable. If you have a limited budget, Behringer will get you there. For some kid barely making above minimum wage or a hobbyist dad saving for his kid's college tuition, it's a realistic option.
The Helios desk sold for £112,500. Given the low auction price-as compared to the Pink Floyd desk-there’s some speculation that the desk will continue to be used somewhere as opposed to becoming a museum piece, as happened to the EMI desk, which appeared as part of an exhibition at London’s V&A soon after its sale. (ProSoundNetwork)
I find it utterly astounding that Dave from GForce has any issue with cloning anything. That's exactly what Gforce DOES. I do appreciate Marc's comments, which seem to acknowledge the complexities, such as they are.
It's psychological.
There is no difference in sound between a human soldered and an automated reflowed soldered component on a printed circuit board.
The mixing desk used for DSOTM ended up selling for $1.8m. The Helios desk that was mentioned went up for sale in 2018.
Excellent video! Really great chat and discussion. Rendering of the Deep mini/ Model B are up online now.
Really disappointed that they made it look so much like the original and not something new. Plus did not add to the Model D in the way they did with the Deep Mind 12 vs the Juno 106.
haha That console went for 1.8 million USD
One thing you missed in that auction besides the EMI console are a few of Bernie Worell's minimoog's.
Did anyone else get the Indiana Jones theme song stuck in their head when Mark said "It belongs in a museum!"?
great episode. thanks nick and the gang!
Great episode, thank you sir
Great episode guys. I postponed playing breath of the wild to listen/watch this.
25k views, I remember when it was only 5k by now. Good work! And about time.
sold all my vintage synths long ago, but I miss the most: 1-CS-60 2-sh-2 3-chroma polaris
As far as the Behringer D goes, I think they have a chance to sort of do something new here by opening all the knobs and switches up to CV control, which is the whole point of having things in a modular/Eurorack format to me. Hopefully they realize this and make some revisions or at least consider adding an expander module!!
I wonder why there's so little discussion of the Model D's actual sound. People mainly focus on either the moral or legalistic sides, yet very few have commented that the thing doesn't even sound like the original. It doesn't. Not a bad thing. But they're very audibly not identical-sounding. Like laptop-speakers-audibly.
27:27 You really can't beat the sound of those German preamps.
Brett Ennis Are those Siemens mic pre's he's talking about?
Update to the console... It sold for nearly 1.8m
That Charles dude has no idea of the Seiko Presage line, these are better quality watches than Rolex of yesteryear.
Maybe they had the faders reversed because when a sound is louder is closer to you ?
Great episode thanks guys!
Nick, I'm not sure if this would make any difference, but since you can charge the macbook from any of the usb c ports, does it make a difference if you move the charging cable to the adjacent usb c port? Just a thought.
You know what, that seems to have worked! Nice tip Niall I put the power into the USB-C port next to the dock and bingo, both drives get enough power.
Ha! Thought it was a long shot and I'm not sure the about what the technical explanation is. Glad to help though!
Something they didn't make clear in the marketing is that you don't even need a dock or dongles, you can use different cables with USB-C on one end for most devices. If you look on Amazon or Google for USB-C to Micro USB 3.0 cables those should work fine with most USB 3.0 hard drives.
didn't Behringer get big by ripping off Mackie mixers? Seemed they should have been sued, but there must have been some minor detail preventing it. The company was built on that
If behringer can make a low cost synth that SOUNDS exactly like a model d I'll eat my sub 37
How did it taste?
great outro !
Marc you are super animated
In terms of the "trade dress" argument - what about the Creamware Minimax from the early 00s ?
Behringer clone Model D vs The new Moog D Inc have almost the same synth sound,and there are many videos of comparison of those two on youtube.
Want to hear the CS-80 REALLY getting a workout - Frank Zappa - Sheik Yerbouti /Tinseltown Rebellion era. Check out "Your Mamma" on Sheik and "Easy Meat" on Tinsletown.
Leaving the synth aside, Sheik Yerbouti is a peak for Zappa. Many of his longer pieces wander and don't sustain my interest much but Yo Mamma is absolutely brilliant throughout... You Are What You Is has lots of great synth work also and is possibly his strongest album overall.
Dave! when are you going to feature that Oberhiem 8 again?
It’s not just in the computer world where there is only an *appearance* of randomness …
Radio use upside down faders
On the Behringher mini - At the time of this video nobody has seen it so we have no idea what it looks like yet - although Uli said they're releasing renderings of it today. So any trade dress infringements you're eluding to are speculative. As far as build quality, a resistor is a resistor and whether it's thru-hole or SMD is irrelevant. Any circuit built with same spec'd components in thru-hole, SMD or a combination of the two will perform the same...same as the new MS-20's and Odyssey's.
The DeepMind 12 was built on a solid and weighty platform with internal PSU and Behringer's own keybed. They're new to synth building and I'll bet their next releases will be every bit as usable and musical as any other manufacturer. The difference will be it will be a lot more affordable and obtainable for people who can't spend or don't want to spend $3,000+ for an instrument.
Some people might not buy it based on their own reasons...but that's not necessarily saying that they're going to buy the new handmade Minimoog either.
BTW, I do own a Minimoog Voyager. ;-)
www.gearslutz.com/board/electronic-music-instruments-electronic-music-production/1142144-behringer-mini-model-d-good-idea-24.html
Behringer just posted the first renderings of it. With a proposed feature set. They talking about a $400 price too.
Like I said during the podcast, it will have no keyboard, so cannot infringe trade dress.
Thanks for updating me. $400 is unbelievable. I'm ready to hear the audio whenever they build it.
No problem, me too like many others.
Oh my... poly chain AND it's eurorack compatible? That looks really great, I hope they do it and it sounds good.
Yep just need Uli to be convinced to press that PRODUCE ME now button lol
I would love if Behringer made a model D. I would not mind as a MiniMoog owner if it was reality since its everyone know its a cheap copy. I have Monark from native instruments which is nearly as a real moog in software, so why not make one in hardware?
What's Dave waiting JX5? (at 1:12:33)
you didn't mention that music group are reportedly looking into registering trade marks for Oberheim and Oscar, according to GS thread..
Try 1.8 million for the console...
Is Marc Doty leaving the BMF?
Behringer could make an affordable polyphonic minimoog
Excellent episode. I really appreciated the CS80 discussion. I love Vangelis's Blade Runner and Chariots of Fire soundtracks. I'd rather get the software version though. If I was going to buy a hardware version I'd prefer the original over the clone. After purchasing the Jupiter 8 I now finally understand what all the hype was all about. The original one is just so much more powerful. The System 8 and Boutique versions of the Jupiter 8 aren't bad, but the original is just so much more fun to listen to. Thanks for posting another wonderful episode. I look forward to the next one. Take care and have a wonderful weekend. Your RUclips Subscriber, Sam.
I agree.
Machiwoomiapoo the Jupiter/8's current price tag is ludicrous!! I am fine with the system 8.
I'm fine with both! :)
It seems odd to me that anyone would have a problem with Behringer attempting a Minimoog Model D. If they stuck their nose into the air at that, they would have to keep it in the air for every other synth manufacture including: Korg, Roland, Arturia, Novation, Dave Smith, Doepfer, etc. and nearly every single boutique maker as well. They all "borrowed" ideas from others. I don't want to call people's unwavering devotion to Moog, fanboyism, but it kind of is. You know what else is hand made? Nearly everything. :P
Uli, less talk, more do. We heard about the Deepmind for a while before it was available, we heard about the desktop version in that hype era, we've heard about their analog drum machine, now this minimoog? Just do it.
John Doe I'm pretty sure only the Model D is completely hand-built. The rest of the Moog line is surface-mount PCBs. Not that it really matters unless you want to build a 100% accurate replica of the original.
That's interesting. But I've heard people say "Hand built!" as a bullet point when talking about Moog before the Model D. Lots of stuff in the synth scene is hand built. Twas my point. :) I hand build god damn tractors! ...with the help of machines but there's a large human element on every step of the way.
What do you think about Model D now? )
You all have Model D's in the background! Well... most of you :)
woo! someone said timbre correctly!
Wouldn't be suprised if Roger Waters bought the console just to piss off David Gilmour : )
1:07:52 … my new band name, Static Hell …
The Who's My Generation compressor for sale Ebay Australia AUD$25,000. Awesome
1.8 million dollars... Wow
Can Dave Spiers please stop having the OSCar standing on its side in the studio ;)
A Million Orange Dolphins haha right! first world problems.
Where's my Matrixbrute?
Anyone have a themelist with the time of the specific segment?
Ronan Hughes Marc the Darc will be along shortly. thanks Marc!
Just posted ;-)
And sure thing.
The big companies themselves recognize the sale value of other designs..Just Look at korg doing Arp instruments Odessey.. And lets not forget that most times, some of the older synths were revered for a single function which is still cloned to death.. The 303 and ms20 for the filter sections which you can find renditions on countless numbers of synths and clones in Modular format..
Like Marc was saying.. The synthesizer itself isn't something you can claim ownership for.. The reasons are simple.. An analog synth when broken down is just a sum of thousands of other circuits, that were already invented by somebody else..
I believe that some of the big companys are going to get butthurt because the day has ended where they can get away with charging extortionate money for products.
If it weren't for people like Beringer.. Synth designers would still take you to the bank for products.. The cat is out of the bag anyways with Korg putting out a 4 voice poly for 550 quid..
Money talks Marc
borderline troll AND marketing genius?
Always analog stuff. Never an acknowledgement of other types of synthesis.
I acknowledge that synthesis is synthesis, and that if your goal is the authorship of sound, anything that delivers you to the most effective means of timbral design for your purposes is valid.
There! All fixed! :D
AutomaticGainsay alrighty then. Can you get your hands on a Waldorf XTK?? Would love to see you do a review of that.
James Reeno Hey I used to have a Microwave XT and it's sounded pretty good. But it you want that sound you can probably get that from the Studio Logic Sledge.
Mr. Irrelevant different synth entirely. So far, nothing else can do what the XT does.
James Reeno I've gotten close with Waves Codex which I got for $50.00.
20:46
Let's be honoust .
Behirnger has gotten big , just by stealing ideas and designs for over decades ., that's why they are so huge right now ..selling prosumer stuff in the past ..and now that they have the know how ...they can step it up .
Big enough to buy up t.c.electronic, midas ,klark teknik etccc...all the int.propertie is now theirs .
And uli does't gives a rat's ass about copyrights , I don't trust the guy for a cent ..and I don't care if he comes up with a 500 euro moog ..
From an ethical point of view ..the guy and his company stinks .
My 2 cents
So much empty elitism, all coming from one place...a big hindrance to this show.