going back to this video it's amazing that everything Paul says about Kickstarter board games is true but it's gotten worse to the point where Scythe looks positively svelte by comparison
@@arthursimsa9005 I can't speak for the above, but I would say Weather Machines fits into this perfectly. I haven't played it yet (friend backed it), but just looking at it...dear lord there is a lot of 'things' and 'stuff'...and....more stuff.
@@jeremycarlson1189 You must not be familiar with Vital Lacerda games then? I think the original commenter was talking about something like Nemesis, The Great Wall or all of the other minis games where you can get the core game but then there are like 20 different addons, and by the time you add them all you are $600 in and have like 4 boxes coming and 500 different minis for a single game...when all you realistically need is the core game. I have NEVER met someone who went all in on a pledge and played everything that came with that tier. They usually just say they are going to sell it if they don't like it or use the expansions, but then forget how hard it is to sell the kickstarter games that turn out to not be so good. Weather Machine is actually the exact opposite of what Paul and the original commenter are talking about. You are talking about wooden components and a Lacerda game. Vital Lacerda is known for designing some of, (if not the most complex worker placement board games that exist) and he includes every single thing in one beautiful box because everything is necessary to the game. You are conflating complexity with bloat. He doesn't add plastic simply to increase the price of the game, he doesn't do addons and the only pledges available don't change what you get, just what language the game is in. He also very extensively explains his games on the funding page, which is why it shows so much stuff....but all that stuff is part of a core game. If you want a great example of what Paul or OP were talking about check out ISS Vanguard on Gamefound.....or pretty much any Awaken Realms game. That game is already A LOT and then there are like 5 different add on and about a dozen or so other options that add absolutely nothing to the game but aesthetic and a huge price tag. Basically they are talking about something similar to the Special Edition video games that give you a bunch of skins and maybe a cool toy from the game. Generally stuff designed to drive up the price, but has no bearing on gameplay whatsoever.
The thing about Scythe in particular is that you CAN have an entire game without any combat whatsoever. What this means is, that you can have a little gentleman's agreement that enables you to put your mechs into vulnerable positions. But then what happens when someone seems to be snowballing and/or someone is obviously losing is that they tend to break a little and "play YOLO" and ruin the winning player's position by attacking them. Also, the end game is very interesting where you often have a bunch of very close people who are each trying to work out how they can eek out those last couple of points and end the game without their opposition ending the game first. Our games tend to end up being quite tense towards the end, where it's not unheard of for the game ending turn to be "I move my mech, dropping two workers on the way to gain an additional 2 hexes, then end the move in your hex, initiate combat, which I then win, sending your mech back to base and taking ownership of this hex and your two metal resources, which I now use to deploy my last mech, giving me an achievement point for winning a battle and an achievement point for deploying all my mechs, and even though my popularity went down, those 3 extra hexes mean that I win by 2 points.... oh wait, you've got 3 more coins than me..."
....and then the endgame as well. I think my friend has the best description of Scythe ever, "It's a game for people who say they like complex games, but don't want to actually invest the time into learning a complex game." It's pretty telling that the one person in our group that loves it (we'll call him Kythe) is also the one that owns it, and started playing board games the year it was released. Back then Kythe used to tell us that he wished all games would venture into territory as complex as Scythe....lmao. OK I have noticed that most of the people that love Scythe were getting into board games right around 2016-2017. I don't mind playing it....I just have to bite my tongue every time Kythe tries to tell me that the slow, plodding and boring af nature of the game just means it's "thinky" and open for strategy. We were supposed to all play On Mars one night, but he showed up and hadn't watched any of the rules videos because he didn't think it was worth it to spend that long trying to learn a game and that from what he could tell the game was only complex for the sake of being complex. It's weird....it's almost like he doesn't actually like complex games, lol.
Schyte could really improve with the simple trick of hiding the coins of each player. You just can't math it out now, the end game is as obscure as the designer intended for it to be. We play to have fun, not to win at the expenses of everyone else's fun.
I always get lost when I watch other channels try to explain a game because they get so bogged down into the technicalities of it or they are just plain annoying. But you guys really get at the core of what the game is really supposed to be all about which really helps me decide if I want the game or not.
I think it's best described as a Cold War Game--where there is adversarial moments, but it's more of you looking at them warily as they do the same. While you have your giant robots in adjacent fields--waiting, watching, sometimes farming :)
Agreed! A lot of the tension is based on who will "crack" first. There's a lot at stake in Scythe when you go to war--popularity, power, and (as Paul mentions in the video) perhaps most importantly, positioning. Ah, the 3 tenets of Steampunk Agrarian Warfare.
I just got this game and I’m geeking out uncontrollably. I’m losing sleep cause I just wanna play solo before the next match against friends. The board looks beautiful and for someone who’s only board game was monopoly and chess(which I’ve lost) this is an out of the world experience! I’m already thinking of getting a new board monthly to start. Something else that makes board games great is the bonding and unrivalled experience of having a games night rather than playing video games even over LAN. Then on top of that I get taken aback by the quality of the art pieces and lore that goes into the making. Stuff like expansion packs and table top purchases are so cool to me. I really need friends that will teach me dungeons and dragons now ....
What I love about this game is that there is constant tension and fear of a battle, and you might spend many of your turns building up your military power, and then no battle happens in the whole game. It feels like a constant cold war and I love it.
My gaming group is OBSESSED with this game. In my case, I appreciated the theme and mechanics, but it left me a big feeling of emptiness. I will play it again, but prefer other games.
@@petarmajstor2370 in a euro, engine building style I prefer Underwater Cities. As a war game I prefer Inis. I know these games don't really compare. Oh, and as a Stonemaier game I prefer Viticulture.
3 years after this review, and man I still love this game. There was something about how daunting and confusing it seemed the first time you played that transformed into great satisfaction after finishing the first play through. Still find great enjoyment in setting up the perfect sequence of turns to accomplish multiple bottom row actions in a row!
I love SU&SD reviews, which are almost always spot on, but I almost completely disagree with this one. I can see how he feels it’s a slower game, but in all the times my friends and I have played this game I have never felt that way. I do feel as though it is incredibly mentally stimulating because of how you need to be able to manage your actions effectively and think ahead. This is, without a doubt, the best game that I own in my collection.
To put my bias out on the table I Kickstarted Scythe and I love it. I own Inis(h), Rex, Terra Mystica, and Archipelago and will generally play Scythe over any of them unless I'm hankering for a specific experience that those games provide. For example if I want to play something more combat focused I'd throw down Inis, or better yet Kemet. The issue I see with new players and Scythe is one of cognitive dissonance. People see plastic mechs and tigers and assume it's a combat game. I've taught the game several times to groups of new players and specifically tell them that you generally won't win by fighting all the time and the threat of a fight is often more important than the actual fight. In the end they still see mechs and I generally spend the game obliterating them. At the end I hear one of two responses. One is that I was right it wasn't about fighting and they understand the game now. The second is that it doesn't feel like a good area control / combat game. The latter folks are still running under the assumption that giant mechs = constant fighting. I would often get the same response when I first setup Terra Mystica until the players saw all of the wood pieces. They equate wooden cubes to Euro style games and cognitive dissonance is removed. I'm honestly glad that the combat system in Scythe is simple to the point of boring because the game isn't about combat. Mechanics that incentivize combat would throw off the flow, if not the balance, of the game. At the end of the day Scythe about engine building. And guess what? It has great engine building mechanics. I don't fault Inis for it's crappy stock market mechanics because it's not a stock market game. At the end of the day Scythe is by no means a perfect game. It is a fantastic engine building game and one of the best implementations of player interaction in any Euro style game I've ever seen. Scythe is not a good implementation of a 4x / dudes on a map game. Just like TI3 is a poor implementation of a filler, KDM is a poor implementation of a kids game, and Mechs vs Minions is a poor implementation of a MMOBA style board game.
"Scythe is not a good implementation of a 4x / dudes on a map game" And yet that's litterally how the game is described in the manual. "one of the best implementations of player interaction in any Euro style game" : that maybe it is.
I have played Terra Mystica. I have played Archipelago. I have played Rex. I have played Inis. I will play Scythe over any of them. Terra Mystica is more unbalanced, as proved by the internet over the last few years. I stopped playing it because I played against someone who knew the "Snellman rankings" and just robbed all the fun out of it. I sold my copy. Archipelago is either a lot longer or far too short depending on the objectives you pick and the player count. Plus, building types as end-game triggers? Really? Rex is too long, and I'm told is only truly good at its full player count, and has too much conflict and randomness for my tastes. Inis is the closest to making your point to me, but I find it too back-and-forth and the card draw from both the green action deck and the red special deck too random. Scythe is plodding, yes, but it accelerates like nobody's business. Yes, some encounter cards are better than others, but the game is in how you can turn the worse ones into your boons. Yes, you are spending a lot of time with your head down in your little engine board, but after you've expanded out just a little bit, all of a sudden you're sitting with EVERYONE on your doorstep. Is the factory worth going for for its three hexes of end-game control? Should you keep your nose down and just churn out resources like crazy and make your people really like you? What about your objectives? Are either of them worth it? Maybe! Maybe to all of the above! It is not, however, a sandbox. What you must do is figure out, early on, which six achievements are your six, and go for them. Possibly adjust your plans when that early encounter sets you up in a way you absolutely did not expect. But it's just that - an adjustment. A tantalizing temptation of an adjustment that could actually be to your peril. Some games are games of strategy in that you must untangle a web of nefarious mechanisms with a machete in order to discover your path through the dense undergrowth. Scythe is a game where the strategy is much less obtuse, and you and the other players must all finesse the hell out it as best you can because one little mistake could cost you the entire game. And hey, I've also noticed, that if you get into that situation where it all unravels, at least one person is pretty close to getting all their stars out and you'll be out of your misery in no time. The best part of Scythe for me is the race. It is constant, from turn one, and the tension from the frustration of the slow starting pace is just right. In only builds, as I see the board start to tighten and I become jealous of everyone else's powers but my own, and I wonder if I'll ever be able to get where I want to go. With skilled Scythe players, it is very much a tense race, and the sequence of everything has to be just right. I've been one turn behind and lost a game, and then was left wondering which action I took was the wrong one. It's tough, but it's also so good. And feels good knowing I was that close. It could be a deficit in the faction/action mat combo. It could have been bad draws. But there are so many combinations coming out of the gate that it's pretty difficult to be 100% sure. Do we want it to be that sure, though? The only big problem I've found is that the experience gap in this game is HUGE! If you've played a lot (and I have - over 40 plays) you've seen enough of the game that you will blow out new players. And no matter how many times you tell them "It will end way faster than you think it will" no one will ever believe you their first time out until after it's over. And if players try to "hunt the leader" and draw out the game? It doesn't really matter, because everything that involves will also propel those other players toward the finish themselves. The momentum is all forward. Scythe may be slow at points, yes, but what it absolutely never, ever does is stall. It's interesting that you feel the game is unbalanced when the general consensus I've seen on BGG is that the game is balanced, if anything, to a fault. I'm not saying your experience wasn't valid - one of my friends too has recently claimed that his loss hinged on an encounter card not giving him what he needed - but it does seem to be more of an edge case. I also recognize that people like different things from different games. For me, Scythe is a really good mild conflict-y game that doesn't make me panic too much and pits me in a battle of wits against my opponents to recognize our own path to victory and chase it down, hard and fast, before someone else beats us to it. It doesn't draw itself out, for a resource management Eurogame; it doesn't make you sit around for another six worker-placement rounds of five workers per player now that you've learned that apparently that combo of occupation cards or furnishing tiles your opponent has put together is surely the best and you will try do the same yourself next time if you get lucky enough to draw them. In Scythe, you either have enough time to do -something- to help your standing, or the game is going to be over in two or three rounds anyway. Those are the things I've found in Scythe that I like most. And you're free to not like them or not feel they're there. Shut Up & Sit Down does not recommend Scythe, and in the words of so many of your reviews, "That's fine."
Excellent retort to show the other side. I think that the mechanics of Scythe are beautiful, turns are quick and games do not feel like they drag on. I hope that anyone who watches this review also reads your reply.
Couldn't agree more with you. Actually i feel the video puts too much reference to the "unbalanced" aspect, just because the encounter cards are not all giving to everyone at every time. But isn't this supposed to be the concept of a random ENCOUNTER card? If your style is of the more exploring one, then it s only natural that you are gonna get better encounter cards..but as a result you might be one or two buildings/upgrades less than other players.. Also, i think the struggle of the paces that the video points out, is only putting up to the atmosphere that this game is built on, it has more to do with the lore of the world of scythe and ti actually accomplishes just that. I ve played this game for sometime now and what i really like is the replayability and not only by the different combinations of factions/economies, but also by the fact that you can play it with almost every strategy you come up with and still get close to victory... I agree that it's not for everyone but all in all i recommend this game because it really needs you to make a plan and use your brain in a beautifully illustrated and presented steampunk world...also me and my friends decided to play the encounter cards without knowing the results, which adds a great rp element to the faction you play and how you play it, and we found the game so much better , realistic and intense...
Still, the game is a bit boring and slow. I prefer Civilization The Board Game over this. They have similar concepts but Civ is less draging and your decisions feel more impactful. You can get Civ with both (excellent) expansions for half the price you pay for Scythe and I guarantee you get just as much if not more fun out of it.
Top 2 strategies that will boost your Scythe skills: 1. Try to plan your turns to always take both actions if possible. Each turn in which you only take one action hurts you exponentially. 2. Enlist, enlist, enlist. The accumulating value of enlisting early, before anything else, will put you out ahead of everyone else. Happy building!
Got this game last month and my wife and I cant stop playing. Cant say enough great things about it. The more we play the more strategy reveals itself. We very much differ in tastes. I'm just really really happy i didn't see your review first or I may have missed this one.
The problem with Shut Up & Sit Down is that many of their reviews seem oblivious to general audience's opinions, which is incredibly important to consider. If a reviewer dislikes a game, yet the general consensus is that the game is great, then it's important for the reviewer to realize that most of his audience will likely enjoy the game. A responsible reviewer will then try to figure out why people love the game and why others may be put off of it. This kind of awareness is, unfortunately, missing from a lot of the reviews on this channel. Instead, we get an incredibly biased opinion. I'm glad you and your wife bought the game and enjoyed it. I'm thinking of buying the game myself once I get some extra spending money. I'm glad I did some research on this game because I too would avoid it if this were the only video I watched about it.
I agree with NoNameC68. SUSD, the more I watch their reviews of various games, seems to have a love for playing “devil’s advocate”, I guess is one way to put it. Almost like they feel they have to have a view on both sides of the fence. Scythe is on so many Top 10 lists, including on boardgamegeek.com (currently #8) that I just don’t know how they come to these conclusions in this video. Same with the Root review.... I enjoy the production quality of the SUSD videos, but sometimes it feels like they’re just trying to provide a balance of pros and cons, even if they have to make some stretches to get there. One minute its all sunshine and roses and you think they actually like the game, then the next its doom and gloom and you wonder how seemingly minor things that most people overlook because the amazing parts are worth it suddenly became the focus that turns the reviewer sour on the game. Scythe is an amazing game and I don’t feel that it’s ‘plodding along’ at all. I haven’t seen a snowball effect yet for any one faction/economy board combo, either. It seems well enough balanced to me, and crowdsourced popularity on BGG has it high enough that I take this review with a grain of salt.
@@NoNameC68 That is false. Reviewrs job is to present their opinions and explain why they came to such conclusions. You can decide then whether you agree or not, or whether you agree that what a reviewer seen as negative is in your opinion bad or not.
@@andrewuk2781 I mean, to a point. I used to find the Legend of Zelda series boring and bad. But then I realised the games had universal acclaim and I tried to understand why and maybe tap into that feeling that excited other people so much. Personally, I find it much more rewarding because if that works you have just found a new game you suddenly like. So a little self awareness isn't a bad thing. Completely beholding your opinion to the masses is though. Everything in moderation.
@@niallreid7664 Yeah. My point is that the review has to oresent his opinion based on his experience. Then you as a consumer use different opinions and your knowledge of the product and the company to make a decision. Because it may work the other way around: I know many people criticise Forbidden Siren on ps2 but for me the game is good exactly because of the things people find annoying in it. So I can see why many reviewers had issues with it, I just don't see it as a negative.
It's probably not a big selling point for most people, but Scythe has a fantastic solo mode. I'm on the same page as Paul, yet Scythe has stayed in my collection, despite just being an OK game, because the solo mode is so great.
That's because the solo mode was not made by Stegmeier, but by someone else. He probably played the game before being released, got bored, and decidet to do something to make it fun.
Fighting against teleporting and automatically producing mechs and workers is not “fun” but very challenging and rewarding, even if you cheated a little bit.
I like the mechanism with upgrading your boards - the issue for me is finding others that want to play Scythe as it's quite long and takes a bit to get to know the rules.
I've got Terra Mystica (though admittedly not played Inishhh nor Archipelago nor Rex), and I've got to say: Scythe DOES get my blood boiling to a froth more than TM. Perhaps I've just had very close games, but Scythe is much more nailbitingly tense than TM. I think TM is on par intellectually with Scythe (and much more streamlined), but just that threat of combat and more explicitly competing objectives make me want to play Scythe "just one more". Also, 115 minutes is totally doable. Our very first game with 3 grizzled gamers only lasted around 90 minutes, not including setup.
Scythe is one of my favorite games so far.. i realy love it and i am willing to play it any time.. a very intense game from my experience. BUT BUT....it is NOT a fighting game.. 95% of our games ended with each player having 1 or 2 attacks maximum. Just to get the reward stars.. In some rare cases a player may attack to take some recourses... Its more of a euro style game and the background story of the game, supports it.
Wins can be defined as bleeding a country of resources like the Russians did to Germany on the Eastern front in WWI. Wins can be defined as a negotiation. Wins can be defined as merely surviving against tough odds. The biggest thing you're missing is Scythe isn't a wargame. Stop trying to make it one. Battles are one avenue to secure a victory.
You know what I love about this review (apart from the great British humour it brings)? The fact that it spawned so many views and comments, of all kinds. I think the review does a good job of describing the general style and pace, and some of the comments qualify them well (such as the increasing tension and pace towards the end of the game). So all in all, a good balanced opinion that will either put you off or suck you in depending on whether YOU are likely to like it based on your preferences. Good stuff...what reviews are for really.
I got to play Scythe a few weeks ago. I found it a lot more enjoyable than expected, but I've been identified as a "Builder" player type. So I enjoyed expanding, and upgrading and building, and I didn't really care that combat wasn't a focus.
I backed Scythe on Kickstarter based purely on the fact that I like Stonemaier Games' games. Paul's concerns about combat are the same things I was worried about, although they are also the opposite. I'm not interested in battling, confrontation, and action, so I was pleasantly surprised to discover the way combat is implemented in this game -- as something that you really have to carefully consider. As a not particularly aggressive boardgamer I really dreaded the possibility of having to flatten my opponents with an army of mechs -- the sort of threat of negative consequences of combat, giving the game a sort of arms race, cold war feel, was just what I wanted from a game with mechs. The mechs were about theme for me, not about the fighting.
Scythe is one of the best looking games out there. Even though we have only played it once, we do recommend it. We also purchased the metal coins for the game. The coins are intricate in their design and beautiful to hold. A fantastic addition to the game and well worth buying. I’ll agree with Paul that the game builds slowly but for us this adds to its appeal.
Knowing nothing about this game before watching this review, I feel... a bit let down by Paul's description of it. Something I've always loved about SUSD is their ability to paint the broad strokes of a game's ideas/themes/mechanics, then get into the details and piece it apart. I'm at the 20:00 mark here and I'm not even certain what the goal of the game is. Without context of what ends we're trying to reach, all the talk of movement and battle and upgrades all just seems inconsequential. Feeling like some more editing is needed here.
To be true probably the weakest part of the game is why we are doing what we doing. Basically it is to be the richest because being rich and developed is good.
That's because it's a point salad game. You do stuff and get points for it. In it's defense, it's a point salad game where you choose your path early on, rather than just doing a bit of this and bit of that, but it still lacks that unified focus.
I couldn't agree more . I was actually quite bored by his rambling on about the mechanics without any attempt at a unifying thread. Also, why did this need to be 20min+?
Perhaps that's because there is no unifying thread in Scythe - only mechanics that you deploy for the sake of deploying mechanics, because when you've deployed one enough times you get a star. It's Settlers of Catan, or Tiny Epic Kingdoms, if you were playing Catan or TEK in a spa filled with porridge. 'So much prettier than those other games' you say, and 'look at my giant bear and my cool mech', but you're still up to your armpits in oatmeal doing much the same stuff, and at the end of the day your bear and your mech is no different from a cube. Which is, you know, actually the unifying thread of the review, but it seems to have gone over your head, as well as @Ben Green's.
Cannot agree more with the review. All this hype i don't get. It is a fairly good game BUT there are so many better ones out there that make you wanna yell ''DAMN what a fantastic game''. I also do not like the euro feel of keeping to your own with almost no player interaction. Art wise it is simply fantastic and very thematic. Theme wise the victory conditions-points are to the point. A feast for the eyes more than the brain.
Solid review, very thorough. You pointed out that there are other games that do "this" or "that" better, like Rex, Terra Mystica, or Inis. However, for me at least, I just absolutely love that Scythe combined all those mechanics (albeit not as deep as those other games) into one box with a theme that is very appealing and with very high quality components. It's a game that can scratch multiple itches for my friends and I, easily making it one of my favourite games. I must disagree with your assessment of it being unexciting tho. The game is an engine builder. It starts off slow, and picks up a lot. By the end game, once multiple players are close to placing their final star, it becomes very tense and turns become quick with lots of things happening. Looking forward to the next review!
Scythe is an engine building and economic game. The problem is that people see mechs and think of combat. Yes the game can get boring if you just don’t care for the type of gameplay.
I appreciated Paul’s take the first time I saw it because, at the time, I’d played 2-3 games of Scythe and gotten hamstrung every time. However, being newish to modern board games, I assumed it was my inability to grok the game, not the game itself. I’ve since played Scythe with other players - and finally managed to win against humans, albeit new players - and bought the game to play solo, and I’ve come around for a bunch of reasons. The look of it is spectacular, no question. Hard to say that’s not a selling point for me. But as a newish boardgamer, playing this game solo (with the app keeping track for the AI - a must!) has taught me more how to strategize a point salad game, to look at the player mat and factions and maximize what’s there. I’m glad to have this in my collection now. (Not interested in Inis, Terra Mystica, Archipelago, or the other games Paul mentioned.) I would say Scythe is not going to scratch that itch for players who want more/constant interaction, fighting, and conquering. This is not that kind of game.
I've played this game for over a year at the time of writing this, about 10+ games with different combinations of the same 5 total players. I have the first expansion for additional player variety. As far as criticism goes, this isn't the most complicated game under the sun, and a lot of people equate that to being boring, which is fine. I won't ever try to minimize somebody's interest or lack thereof for a game, people just enjoy different types of things. My elevator pitch for this game has always been "Settlers of Catan, but fun" which is an exaggerated dig at Catan having played it so many times and it being a sort of gold standard for entry-level board games. It plays similar to me, minus the trading aspect which is probably the most interesting part of Catan. I think Scythe more than makes up for not having a trading mechanic with its clever moving mechanics and upgrading systems, adding a layer of complexity to a resource management game. The end game scoring system is hard to explain to people who haven't played, and I think that's a bummer for new players if they are playing with a group that already understand this. This is the most consistent issue I see people have, but once you play a game and see it in action and see specifically why you won/lost a game, it becomes much more interesting and opens you up to various strategies you hadn't thought of. This couples with the random selection of player/production boards makes each game new and interesting. However, I think the magic of Scythe hides in the way it tells you how to play the game without having to pour over the rulebook between every turn. Of course there are some niche things you'll look up occasionally, but the double board system is magical. This game is legitimately beautiful to look at, and I think that's a large part of its appeal, but its systems are very straight forward in its cost/gain mechanics: how they are laid in front of you in the form of tactile upgrade blocks, buying workers straight off your board to reveal new costs, recruiting to gain immediate rewards and open up triggers for collecting additional ones, revealing mech powers, etc. I subscribe to the player base of people that like shiny things. I didn't kickstart this game, but to be honest I probably would have if I had known about it. I bought the metal coins after playing this game two times. I was gifted the Meeple resource tokens (which are amazing and I recommend). I bought the board expansion so I can look at everything in extra detail. I bought the second expansion despite never having enough players for a full 7 player game just to look at the new mechs and token and characters. It is such a great 'collector' game and it looks amazing sprawled across my newly refinished dining room table. But I also think it's fun. And I think a lot of other people will think it's fun. Do I think it's currently 7th BoardGameGeek overall rating is due largely to its insane production quality? Yes. But do I think that's a bad thing? Absolutely not.
I obsess over it. A believeable (is that written correct?) form of steampunk. I have nothing with steampunk, but this.... i dunno... its like finding something of which i didnt knew i lost it. 1 problem. Not every table is big enough..... thats a unique experience for me haha
For me, Scythe is probably the greatest boardgame I ever played - at least when it comes to competitive games. The production quality is stunning, the mechanics are awesome and it's indeed very well balanced (except the factions from Invaders, which have a huge disadvantage compared to the core factions). I LOVE SCYTHE!
I'm on board with you, Paul. The only substantive addition I can make to your criticism is that I worry the game is pretty solvable. While there are differing combinations of boards, and encounters can change the resources available to you in the early game, overall I feel quite confident that any given set up has a most efficient path through the development process. I don't like games where the best way to succeed is to study the action sequencing outside the game to memorize the most effective play pattern. And the interaction comes too late to disrupt early-game sequencing.
Normally, I love and usually agree with SUSD. And just to put it out there, I did back this game. But I feel like these guys were biased against the game before they started the review. Many of the mechanisms of scythe are present in multiple of the other games that they've recommended, and the only difference here to me seemed like "this game is mega popular, so let's take the opposite opinion". I agree, the game can be plodding. and player interaction does need a framework. But it's still a great game :) just my two cents, still love you guys :)
Did you watch the video? They basically pointed out exactly what you said except they said "it's a good game, play it if it interests you and you'll enjoy it, but there's better games out there with the same mechanics". So I don't really think they went all "opposite opinion" day on you.
Well, they said there are games that have better mechanics than individual mechanics in Scythe. And I'd agree. But in terms of a balance of a little bit of everything, I don't know of anything better, personally. It's kind of like a "greatest hits" of game mechanics across both Euro and Ameritrash games.
I haven't watched the video yet, but based on what they said in a recent podcast episode, I was expecting a negative-ish review. I agree that it seems like they had already formed a general opinion before going into this, based on it being a Kickstarter, hype, popularity, etc. If they didn't end up liking it, it's fine. I still love it, and them!
Coming back to this video after having owned and played Scythe for years now, it's arguably my favorite game and while he may have some good points...it's still a great game. It is the go to option for us on a game night.
Just want to say, this is probably the most civil comments sections I've seen of a RUclips video being less than glowing in it's review of something that's hugely popular. SUSD fans are the best :D
The first video where I disagree with the recommendation of SU & SD. Scythe to me is more enjoyable than Terra Mystic and certainly more than Inis. For me it is the threat of combat and the managing of resources that make the game so enjoyable.
I can understand where SU&SD is coming from for this review, but for me personally, this game scratches the itch that Twilight Imperium does, but in a fraction of the time. Yes, I know a lot of the mechanisms are different, but the basic feel of the game with relatively slow engine building and asymmetrical powers is the same. Edit: Ironically, 4 years later, I still have more plays of TI than I do of Scythe.
This is bang on my view as well, Scythe allows me the vibe of TI3 in half the time and for that alone, it is a great achievement. Not a game I'm going to play often, but always one that I will enjoy.
Couldn't agree more. My group took the Twilight Imperium plunge a while back, and now we can't help but use it as the stick by which all other games are measured. Obviously, nothing quite measures up, but when we want a deep, strategic game and don't have a full day to commit, Scythe hits closer to the mark than anything else we've tried.
Thanks for this. I have been wondering why it felt sort of familiar & was wondering if the new hyped up Scythe fans had not played more empire builder type games before. TI is a great example. Of course Scythe has Euro sensibilities like Terra Mystica and I prefer that. (I can do without conflicts & detente.)
I honestly couldn't disagree any more. Twilight Imperium is a game of negotiation, diplomacy, gunboat diplomacy, and inevitably war. You're bumping elbows with your neighbors from turn 2 on forward, sometimes even turn 1. I've had nigh-game deciding fights round 2, I've had games that devolved to 1 v All, I've had games that were nearly combat free. Scythe just feels like... Scythe.
One of my favorite games. I actually played for the first time with the purple and green last night and don't feel that they were imbalanced at all, since those four little traps or four little flags that they got to lay still weren't as beneficial to them as the fact that my worker meeples could swim across rivers. And the other person could bounce to any unused faction home base. So their little "minus two hearts" trap felt very insignificant compared to the benefits that we had. Purple came in second place though because she used her other stuff wisely. That's what's fun about this game, there are so many ways to go at it!
I've watched this entire video, and I still have absolutely no idea about what happens in this game or how it is played. (That's not a criticism of the video, btw)
With Scythe, that can happen. I played it twice, and at the end of the game I was like "Ok, I moved some mechs on the map, I uncovered some tokens, I unloked some powers... So, what is this game about?". You had to watch just a video of 23 minutes, say "thank you".
InnerPartisan first day me and my brother spent 3 hrs learning and setting up the board and another 3-4 hrs to finish a match. Time flew and it was great!
I personally love this game! After one or two games I really understood it. I found myself planning out strategies 5 turns in advance all while managing the politics of the game so that my resources would not be jeopardized. Once you play it a couple times it all clicks in.
Rodney's How to Play video for Scythe is 33 minutes long. In my experience, it can take an hour to teach to someone who's totally unfamiliar with it. This is a major problem with the game. There are too many things.
Having played this game a few times, I can say this is my favourite board game so far. The Wind Gambit expansion is a must though, with some really good tweaks to how the game ends (less abrupt), and also has got optional airships! Kewl! But I really enjoyed Terra Mystica too, which was one of my favourite games until I tried this. *edit* The odd thing about it is that it was fun the first few times, but it didn't blow me away. It felt like it was more or less solvable (get lots of popularity and you win). But after like the 10th game, it was at least 10 times as fun as the first game. It just grows and grows. The main drawback is that it does have balance issues which crop up after many plays, though BGG gives quite a few suggestions for fixes.
I think all of Paul's criticisms are valid and I agree with most of them, but the review just seems to be permeated in this weird... bias? Like in the Caverna review he was ecstatic over all tge bits and baubles and choices jusr because they were there, ignoring what all of that meant for the game. In this video he seems to be turned off by the amount of stuff or at least seems to be sarcastically referencing how ridiculous it is. Of course his rabidness in the Caverna video was possible more the the sketch and not his actual views, it just seemed strange. From what I know about Paul and sexy magic purple bowls, I thought the surplus of wooden bits and fun minis would make his loins froth.
You also have to consider that the Caverna and the Terra Mystica review were two and three years ago, respectively. People do change their opinions, after all. In at least one podcast, I think Quinns and Paul both said that recently, they generally prefer focused, sharp games over ones with lots of stuff.
That's also a very fair point! Like I said, I don't think any of the actual meat and potatoes of his argument are wrong in any way, and his "too much stuff" criticism isn't even something I disagree with, it's just not what I expected from Paul! I still love me some bibs and bobs though, I think I have problems. Time to go cuddle sexy magic purple bowls in my room!!
Yeah, when you review games as a hobby and can only get so many so often, you treasure what you can get. When it's your job and you've seen a dozen of something you thought was fun the first time, it can be much harder to overlook flaws. I would take this as a bigger indictment against things they've reviewed in the past than a point for Scythe.
Despite SUSD not recommending scythe I really enjoyed the reviewm Scythe is a new favourite in the house hold mostly as my partner and I enjoy a very slow paced game where we can sit down and make every decision count. The slow and methodical march seems to match the feel of a game set in which you are trying to kickstart an economy after a massive war so it feels at home. I have noticed that beimg just 1 popularity behind as the game ends can easily lose everything for you, and I dominated the voard but had just one less popukarity, tossing me into a lower earning category and causing me to receive 1 less coin on EVERYTHING and thereby losing by $1. I agree the game isn't for everyone but it's a pretty nice experience
The SUSD crew are starting to remind me of people that I know that have consumed too much of their passion. It's like the guy you know who's heard every single classic Rock and Roll song ever produced. When that guy hears a new song by a new band that everyone likes, their comments always trend towards "Oh, yeah, that's pretty good. But really it's just a combination of these 2 other songs by better artists. If you want gritty blues feel, listen to this. If you want that pop feeling they're going for, just listen to this instead." It's weird, because for most of us, we don't care that it's made up of those other things, because THIS thing is pushing all those buttons for us. And while I appreciate the information that there is this really cool older stuff I can explore if I want more of the thing I like, it always feels weird to hear "I don't recommend this new bigger thing because I think you should play this smaller simpler version of the 1/3 of it that you like." I've started to ignore their final "SUSD Recommend" comments, but I still love watching their reviews. I listen to what they're saying, and then I always mentally apply the filter "If their complaint is directly tied to the games they've played before, disregard". I simply haven't played all the games they've played, and a lot of the games they've played and are still in love with don't work for me or my group. So if the only reason they didn't like it is because they're still in love with Fury of Dracula, or TM, or whatever, then that complaint just means less to me. However, they always FILL their reviews with all sort of information, so just listening to them talk always makes a more informed decision for me. So despite the criticism, I love what these guys are doing.
Mason, that's a really insightful description of their reviews. I agree with you completely -SU&SD, by dint of playing sooooo many games and having such a depth of knowledge about the hobby, don't always represent the "regular" gamers in my group, who as you aptly described, don't care at all about whether or not a tune's a cover or if the bass line was ripped out of another song or if it's only really good on vinyl. My group loves Betrayal, for example, which for me lost its charm as soon as I analyzed the mechanics. As an amateur designer, though, the depth of their reviews is compelling for me, and I usually find our interests aligned. I think they've done an excellent job recently of making their positions clear, and they seem to be really working hard at modulating their knowledge.
I was going to write this as a counter, but then midway I realized that while you are sort of criticizing them for the "recommendation" part, in the same breath you turn that around and turn it to your favor. Which is really what everyone should do. Because that's what this whole business is about. A reviewer drawing references to other things of the same variety while at the same time clearly shaping who they are and what their preferences are, is supposed to help the viewer make a wise decision with their money. It is NOT about agreeing with the reviewer at all times. Or even, at all. It is perfectly possible to enjoy almost none of the same things and for that very reason to know that you can generally do the opposite of what they recommend. Or something inbetween. The only important thing is that you trust and like what they do. I gotta tell you...I don't even care about board games, but I enjoy these videos IMMENSELY, right now. They are just really good at what they do... informative, funny, witty and all that good stuff. Well...I didn't think I'd care. Or tried to subconsciously shield myself from getting into YET ANOTHER awesome time-consuming rabbit hole.
I think the "recommends seal" is more just there because people expect it in review videos and it drives discussion (like the one we're having right now!). It is by and far the least important part of SUSDs videos. Their reviews tend to be so comprehensive that you would know if you want the game or not without hearing their official "verdict" or whatever.
dorpth sorry to say this but on the blood rage bid, y actually agree I’ve played all four of those games they all have cards minis and combat (ok cosmic encounter has simple spaceship like discs and a very simple way of working conflict but in the end it is all there) the point is for me blood rage was a bit of a grey game, one that wanted to do soo many things but in the end the fact that it desires to be a shorter stream lined game a.k.a not a heavy war-game is damages the excitement for me, so if you want a heavy game about civilizations developing just to crack the skulls of each other please look at forbitten stars is a very long but very exiting game if you have lots of people but want a relaxed time plundering your friends worlds well that’s cosmic encounter for you and finally if you like magic and there is only to of you BattleLore is an excellent war that will make you love to end a Mach and try it again with another faction, in short blood rage is not a bad game but if you like that one you like that one you might want to those other ones, who knows you might find something you love, one of my favorite games is eclipse, and it was a gift from a friend who knew we couldn’t play an 8 hour twilight imperium, but who looked at this space euro with some combat and sure I kill my friend in there.
Bought this as my first board game, spent the weekend on it with 3 other friends (also their first board game) and after the first few hiccups (took us 2 - 3 hours to start out first game lol) we had an absolute blast, there's just so much to do, so many ways to build your way to victory, already scheduled another session for this weekend, we are stoked
Many compare it to Blood Rage, Inis or other area control games but the truth is, Scythe feels like a farming game more than anything else. Yes, your land is shared by everyone and there is “combat”, but this is really just a costly way to push other players away from the central area. It is a very tranquil game, where you and your friends mostly peacefully collect resources and build upgrades for your farm/economy. The very protagonists of this game are the workers. Mechs and Character can be seen as 'special units' that allows the player to do additional things and help workers. Resources are not really scarce and there are ways to gather them even if you don’t control a specific hex. Combat is rather weak and nobody dies. Nobody can stop you from doing upgrades (à la Agricola). All of this makes this game very solitary and non confrontational, Scythe is a true Stonemaier game. But I can understand why Jamey Stegmaier cleverly chose to apply a more interesting background and art than the overused agricultural theme. This strategy paid quite well, looking at how the game performed on Kickstarter and BGG... So in conclusion, the lack of focus is the main problem I have with Scythe. Every time it makes me wish rules were a bit different; for example, each achievement could be claimed by only the player that puts the first star down; or the buildings could defend themselves if an opponent enters their hex. But then I realise that I am probably just looking for a different game. Something a bit more confrontational, something where your actions make the opponent rethink about his strategy. Something where is worth playing with other people.
You might want to give a try to "The Wind Gambit" expansion and its different resolution modes, some of them sound like what you are looking for! I certainly understand your point.Great read!
Wow. You could tell the final conclusion from the tone through-out. I have yet to play it but the people that love it seem to really love it and I've heard quite a few people say it's only ok. I own it and I want to play it but the solo mode looks like the only way I'll get it to the table.
Eric Finley it does nothing really new other than just having all this stuff mashed together and making it interesting. But it is at least a very good game if you like engine building games. The KS criticisms just not belong with this game at all.
I've finally got to play Scythe and, after several plays all with different factions, I'll never play Terra Mystica ever again. For me, it's a more focused and specific game when you can do exactly what you want on every turn instead of just sitting there like a moron because you messed your maths a bit and have one terrible turn while everyone else just keep doing cool stuff. And why is the number of bits a problem now? Freakin' Feast for freakin' Odin looks like several puzzles and boardgames smashed together by a madman, yet somehow this was a problem. It never felt like it's overwhelming for me or my group, we played with 5 and 6 players and never played a game longer than those 150 minutes. And yes, I like how it looks on the table, sue me :)
And that's my problem with it: you can do exactly what you want. It doesn't matter what the others do most of the time. Why would I play that as a multiplayer game then? As you mentioned Terra Mystica, I'll just list the ways you compete in that one: - Picking your faction at the start of the game matters, so does initial placement. - Power actions are once per turn, so you have to time them well. - Where you build matters as it can cut others from easy to transform tiles and it impacts town formation and end game scoring. - How high you are on the cults also matters and you can block others from getting higher - When you pass matters because it sets the play order for next round and because you compete for bonus cards. Scythe has map competition, but no common action pool, no common objectives to compete for, you get your faction randomly, etc. I hoped one of the expansions would solve these problems, but it doesn't look like it. Even watched the Fenris spoiler review, still meh.
Actually there is/are common objectives. There is always one drawn at random per game. Which usually involves building next to certain types of territories. So territory\tunnel control is really important as is building placement. As for faction selection, if you want it to matter you can house rule like many groups do. Some competitive groups draft or use an auction handicap system. My first couple games i also had the feeling that it is to much solitaire. But once you play it more often and players get more experience it completely changes. If you only do your thing it is a certain way to loose. Territory control does not seem to be important, but mech/worker placement is immensely important, for spreading yourself before the game ends or prohibiting others to spread. If you do not control enough territories and end the game you are gonna loose. The factory and encounters are usually also highly competed for it. Encounters are always rewarding sometimes more sometimes less. Being first at the factory usually gives you first pick of the factory card. Which are pretty good most of the time. But not guaranteed to fit your strategy. It also gives your second move action which is always good. But you always weigh , when should you go in. When are the others planning to go in. The factory also counts as three territories at the end of the game. As for player interaction i love how combat works in the game. But that is a long topic. In my opinion. if you think you can do whatever you do in your games of Scythe, you are not playing with competent players.In comparison there is a lot more interaction between players in scythe then in Terra mystica. Territory control and a good sense of when and where to fight are essential in winning games in Scythe. I like both games, but Scythe has way more player interaction when played competitively compared to Terra Mystica
Oh Enlisting Recruits is also very underestimated by beginners. Picking the right recruits can give you a ton of free stuff, or nothing at all because you guessed wrong or opponent adapted because he does not want you to get free stuff.
I love this game. I have played this Scythe with new gamers, people who are brand new to modern games and hardcore gamers... Every Time, we had an exciting and enjoyable play experience. Because of the randomness in the player abilities, the faction mats and action mats, each time was different and interesting. Every once in a while you pull the perfect combination of player mat and action mat, but it only makes you good at 1 thing... nothing that would unbalance the game to the point of there being no competition. If you are curious about this game... buy it, you will not be sorry. Oh, and Every expansion has only enhanced the play experience... its not "just more stuff"... its more possibilities. The Rise of Fenris is especially Fantastic.
Love this game. It looks challenging but very accessible. I love Inis as well but it is a game that usually falls flat on the first play and is hard for people to wrap their heads around a particular strategy which in turn turns them off to the game. So far Scythe has been a lot of fun and I look forward to bring it to the table any chance I get.
Haha omg I just realized the joke in the intro from the river cross ability that you can only cross rivers into a special territory but can't necessarily cross back 🤣 and wood of course a resource in the game
Coming back to this review after playing this game for years with my group and it becoming easily our favorite game, I kind of get where you guys are coming from. Here's the thing, Scythe is not for everyone, just like chess is not for everybody. There is definitely a skill component to this game. We lucked out because we all started learning the game together and got better at it together. But, whenever a new person joins our group and wants to play Scythe with us, I can fully understand them thinking what is being pointed out in this review. The beauty of scythe is working within your limitations and finding that route to building an engine of actions that enables you to have a completely viable and unique route to winning. Every game, this will be different. This is what makes it so appealing to me and my group. I would say that after playing this game more than 5 times and with a bit of help from a supportive group, you'll be primed to make these tactical decisions and feel good about your strategy, regardless of the fact that you lose or win. The games are always intense and there is always a chance that the top dog will mess up, or fail to see a tactic another weaker player may employ. I would say that if your group is competitive, eager to learn and give a game its due time to fully show its potential, then you have a future favorite on your hands.
7 лет назад+32
Paul actually made a fair review even disliking the game. I guess that's what you get for almost forcing them to do review of a game they didn't want to review. The criticism in this video has a very targeted audience: KS supporters that wanted a nice review of the game to validate their buy/pledge. I bought myself a copy of this game (yet to be released in Brazil) and played it once before knowing all the hype around it (so was immune) and I really liked the _experience_ of playing it.
7 лет назад+6
Good point Adam, and this kind of meaningful review is what I (and I believe most of theirs audience) like about it (and also they are funny). But think that the main criticism in this review is towards the "KS way" of making games and how sometimes less is better than more stuff and not Scythe specifically. They also reviewed games with almost the same amount of content and I can't remember if they ever complained the amount of stuff in games like Terra Mystica..
Although I agree with almost every single thing he said about this game (he was a bit too generous on some points, in my opinion), I will admit that I am very biased because the primary people I have attempted to play this game with are shite at simply having fun learning a game and being patient and kind with each other. This is definitely NOT a good game to test an already competitive relationship, or a good venue to sandwich your inexperienced friends into if they aren't already into this type of game. Long story short, certain others may have ruined my experience with Scythe for good, and I have no reason to break it out in the future. If I do attempt to play for some apocalyptic reason, I will go it solo. In the meantime, I find myself wandering out of conversations that involve this game or how good it is. It's not that I don't recognize how well put together it is- I. Just. Don't. Like. It. :(
I played this game and I only fought once and won. It was fantastic I was strategically collecting and moving to as many empty spaces as possible while collecting popularity to make sure my points were higher, and it was so close so tenuously close riveting. We played for 4 hours but it only felt like 1 and a half hours.
What I like about these reviews is that they allow me to know in advance which games I may like, and which games I should stay away from. This particular game, despite of all the hype, I can clearly see is not for me. Thanks for the video!
I didn't kickstarted Scythe (or anything else). I've never heard of Scythe until the UKGE 2016. I don't think Scythe has anything that is there just for the sake of kickstarter so I'm not sure the complaints about kickstarter actually match this game. There are many games that aren't kickstarted that have as much or more stuff as Scythe. I agree that it is not a game that is going to be like "OMG I've never seen this before!". On the other hand I've never seen a game marrying all those concepts and actually being a nice streamlined game that I want to play again and again. Having different games that do one single aspect better doesn't make them an alternative to a game that has all the aspects. I don't understand the problems with combat - it is a lot like rex and kemet. It is also quite the bluffing game. "Oh. He has a ton of cards and over 7 power. So I'm going to be destroyed so lets pay only 1 power so I qualify for the combat card loser bonus. WTH. He only payed 2 power!!!!". I think games should be judged on their merits and not because they started as kickstarter and had huge hype. Having listened to the SUSD podcasts I was not surprised with this review but I think had Scythe not been a kickstarter and had that hype the review could have been more positive.
I kickstarted Scythe, and I waited for it with trepidation. Scythe is boring. 4X game... Stegmeier has no idea what a 4X game is. His game is an engine builder, a boring one.
I'm new to the channel and decided after several entertaining reviews to watch a review of a game that I own - for context as to accuracy of opinions, if I could manage. I'm glad I did, because this is... Such a bunk review. Dude clearly wants to play a video game instead... Fantastic game. Gorgeous art style. So much replayability. Game pace is reasonable when you understand the relevant mechanics - and the game is totally able to be played alongside good, off-topic conversation, thanks to the incredibly intuitive design. I venture that he didn't understand the game mechanics sufficiently to disagree with the suggested game duration and I thought it humourous that there seemed to be as many minutes criticising the amount of components in the box as there were recommendations of games that appeared to have heaps of components in the box. I get that some of my disagreements are related to preference, but a lot of what was presented here was objectively incorrect, such as the omission of how mobile you are in the late game and the farcical fumbling with pieces. Dude even whinged about making the review! Poor fellow... Grain of salt requirement duly noted; however, I'll note this is the first time I've seen this presenter, so...
His name is Paul Dean, and he found the channel with Quinns in 2011 but left the team in 2018, so there's not much of his video posted on youtube(SU&SD used to post their videos on Vimeo). Too bad you had a bad first impression with him. This review is arguably the most controversial review SU&SD ever done. You'll get to like him, though. I'm under impression that Paul is actually the most eurogame-loving guy of the team, and definitely not a guy who just wants to play a video game. I whole-heartedly recommend that you watch his reviews of Kingdom Death, Battlelore, and Azul, which are both brilliant and entertaining as hell. And yes, every review by SU&SD should be taken with pinch of salt, since your thoughts on the game are the most important thing for you, not reviwers'.
I played Scythe with my board game group and while I had an alright time I was surprised at how little it felt like the mechs and the cool animal friends really were present in the game. Maybe I just haven’t played it enough and it has been a while, but I don’t remember the mechs doing anything particularly mech like. In fact, outside of the factory and the text of the event cards, it seemed like the theme had very little to do with the actual gameplay. I think that the art and theming in Scythe is wonderful and that gameplay could be pretty good, but the art and theming seemed to have little to do with the gameplay outside of just being being in the same box. I think that I share a similar view of Scythe’s quality with SU&SD. However, I’d argue that this game isn’t for people who like mechs, cool animal friends, and places that look like the late Austro-Hungarian empire, because none of those things are really present in the gameplay itself.
A game where you can slyly avoid combat to achieve the final Victory Point objective and win like a champ. I even got the promo cards and the expansion and the board expansion.
It seems SUSD prefers games that are more thematic and tell a narrative. Scythe is more about planning, strategy, and Cold War persistence. Scythe is a deep methodical game. Therefore, Scythe does not fit the shows idealistic expectations. Scythe achieves what it sets out to achieve. It is ten dimensional chess! With mechs.
it's not a grind, it's an engine. the first 5 turns seem slow, the next 5 get faster, and so on and so on to the point the last 5 are at lightning speed and as for "we don't always need more stuff" btw SU&SD gave a half recommendation Caverna and (oh God) a Feast for fucking Odin, which IMO both have twice as much. just seems hypocritical
I don't feel like the first 5 turns are scripted. I've tended to debate the precise pathway I want to start building my engine on more than one case, dependent on the faction and player mat combination I get, as well as my secret objectives.
I honestly think Scythe is one of the best games I've ever played and highly recommend it to anyone. Its a Euro for sure, and while it masks itself as a war game with Mechs, there isn't a huge amount of direct interaction, but that doesn't matter. Yeah if you are looking for a game that you fight non stop then don't get this, but if you like euro game philosophy, not a crazy point salad compared to most Euros as you can usually estimate your current standing in the game unless you are a new player. The one thing he didn't mention is that its fast paced and you are constantly thinking ahead. Its not overly thinky, however, since you really have 3 choices each turn with the macro actions (theres 4 total but you can't take the same action two turns in a row unless u are imba Russviet (red faction )😆, but it just feels so good. It reminds my a lot of puerto rico I how the game seems fast paced until the final few turns. And it just feels good to get your economy engine going. Its peurto rico with more direct interaction and a map to worry about. Theme and components are too notch obviously but I honestly think thay he go too wrapped up into his expectations of what it was going to be. Its not a war game, but God damn this game is good Please take this video review with a grain of salt. Dice tower did a top 100 games a few months ago and I know at least a few had this in thier top 10, one of the new guys had it at #1, and it was also the community's #1. I cant recommend this game enough
One of my new favorite games, possibly ever. I think it's better than those you mentioned when comparing. I hadn't even heard of the game until recently when I saw it at a book store and just bought it on the spot. Wonderful game.
Why would you say that? What would make you think a complete stranger on the internet hasn't played these games? Yes, I have. Archipelago is okay, not my favorite. Rex is good, not my favorite. Inis is quite good, but not my favorite.
When I first started watching this I went in with the thought, "Oh, I wonder how much SU&SD like Scythe", then I heard the review and was surprised to hear you didn't like it. I haven't played it myself mind you. but every other review I've heard, both online and from close friends, tell me the game is amazing, a must play.... you guys just threw a wrench in my expectations.
They don't necessarily agree with everyone on everything. See also: Betrayal at the House on the Hill, which is massively popular, but Quinns feels like we're obliging 30 minutes of wasted time for the good part.
I really love the austria-hungaran ww1 mech sort of aesthetic. If scythe focused more on that and added some more detail to the miniatures I'd buy this without hesitation
It's refreshing to see a different opinion on a game that has become so revered so quickly. I've yet to play it, and those I know that have played it tell me that I must...which makes me leery...kind of like Wesley Crusher in the that Star Trek episode where everyone in the crew mindlessly played that game where you put disks in tunnels.
Have you played Terra Mystica or Through the Ages? Do you like them? If you do, you will probably find Scythe extremely shallow, because, frankly, it is. Scythe is a great game for boardgame players who have absolutely no idea what they are doing. Not because it is hard to find a dominant strategy, or because the game is complex. The simple reason is that if played correctly, Scythe is a massive snooze-fest. If, however, each player plays suboptimally, it can be a lot of fun. My first playthrough was a blast-everyone was new, so the game went on for longer, with several tense moments. By game 4, when everybody fully understood the rules and were acquainted with the game enough for it to turn into this "i know what im doing and now simply going through the motions" type of deal. Fighting is suboptimal, since while you are doing a move to attack one player, somebody else is producing, adding cogs to their engine. It is also rather boring and despite the lack of dice, can still be pretty random. Area control is equally boring, since, again, it is suboptimal in the majority of cases. If you are a casual gamer, absolutely go for it. When played like a regular "monopoly", it can be fun. If, however, you want to think on each turn, really get your head into the game, look at what other players are doing and have meaningful interactions-there are better options. It is not a game for "power gamers". It is not a game for experienced players. It is a boardgame equivalent of call of duty: it sells well, involves little to no brain activity, only slightly rewards skill and can be loads of fun, if not taken seriously. It doesn't do Euro well, it doesn't do ameritrash well. It is this weird thing in-between for people on the edge. Terra Mystica is a better Euro. It is probably the best euro to this day. It really rewards deep thinking and understanding of the game. Through the Ages is a better grand strategy or "4x". It doesn't have area control or any kind of board, but it still vastly superior in terms of player interactions and resource management. Kemet is a better "fighting game". The setting is arguably less interesting and the art isn't as amazing, but the core gameplay is years ahead. Seriously, don't get Scythe if you are looking for a good game. Burned kickstarter backers are just trying to justify their purchase)
@Termirlan Tattybekov Sounds like a pretentious answer, but I can see the validity in it. With that said, why do all these games that boardgame aficionados praise have such subpar visuals... seriously. I typically find it difficult to enjoy games with subpar visuals (surprisingly, Catan does not fall in this category for me). I don't play enough boardgames to seriously critique how brain-fueled or 'brainless' Scythe is, but they at least made everything very visually appealing. Having played it a few times (I do not own it, so I am not biased toward or against), I don't believe it to be as poor as you make it out to be, but I do understand if it doesn't meet your level of depth--I can see that.
Nice to know that I shouldn't trust Shut Up and Sit Down! :) I love Scythe. I have played with many people and it is always a good time. The strategy worked into the simple turns and action-choices is brilliant. I LOVE that it presents itself as a heavy combat/mech driven game and then ends up being more sophisticated and elegant than combat-driven.
You can trust SUSD to give their own fair opinion of the game they are reviewing. I agree here but disagree elsewhere. Combat driven games can be elegant. This game literally has combat and it is not elegant, so why include it in what I believe is a shallow, messy design? The mechs could be buses, but that wouldn't make them millions would it?
Awesome review! This describes my feelings towards Scythe so well, everyone acts like it is amazing but I just think it is okay. You guys should do a video review of Eclipse, there are great expansions for it that make it a really awesome game.
I've never seen a review of SUSD where they reviewed Eclipse. I'd be very interested in their thoughts. Could you share a source of their Eclipse review?
going back to this video it's amazing that everything Paul says about Kickstarter board games is true but it's gotten worse to the point where Scythe looks positively svelte by comparison
What kickstarters do you find worse?
@@arthursimsa9005 I can't speak for the above, but I would say Weather Machines fits into this perfectly. I haven't played it yet (friend backed it), but just looking at it...dear lord there is a lot of 'things' and 'stuff'...and....more stuff.
@@jeremycarlson1189 You must not be familiar with Vital Lacerda games then?
I think the original commenter was talking about something like Nemesis, The Great Wall or all of the other minis games where you can get the core game but then there are like 20 different addons, and by the time you add them all you are $600 in and have like 4 boxes coming and 500 different minis for a single game...when all you realistically need is the core game. I have NEVER met someone who went all in on a pledge and played everything that came with that tier. They usually just say they are going to sell it if they don't like it or use the expansions, but then forget how hard it is to sell the kickstarter games that turn out to not be so good.
Weather Machine is actually the exact opposite of what Paul and the original commenter are talking about. You are talking about wooden components and a Lacerda game. Vital Lacerda is known for designing some of, (if not the most complex worker placement board games that exist) and he includes every single thing in one beautiful box because everything is necessary to the game. You are conflating complexity with bloat. He doesn't add plastic simply to increase the price of the game, he doesn't do addons and the only pledges available don't change what you get, just what language the game is in. He also very extensively explains his games on the funding page, which is why it shows so much stuff....but all that stuff is part of a core game.
If you want a great example of what Paul or OP were talking about check out ISS Vanguard on Gamefound.....or pretty much any Awaken Realms game. That game is already A LOT and then there are like 5 different add on and about a dozen or so other options that add absolutely nothing to the game but aesthetic and a huge price tag. Basically they are talking about something similar to the Special Edition video games that give you a bunch of skins and maybe a cool toy from the game. Generally stuff designed to drive up the price, but has no bearing on gameplay whatsoever.
@@arthursimsa9005 All Awaken Realms games.
@@arthursimsa9005 oathsworn, burncycle or basically anything from chip theory games
The thing about Scythe in particular is that you CAN have an entire game without any combat whatsoever.
What this means is, that you can have a little gentleman's agreement that enables you to put your mechs into vulnerable positions. But then what happens when someone seems to be snowballing and/or someone is obviously losing is that they tend to break a little and "play YOLO" and ruin the winning player's position by attacking them.
Also, the end game is very interesting where you often have a bunch of very close people who are each trying to work out how they can eek out those last couple of points and end the game without their opposition ending the game first.
Our games tend to end up being quite tense towards the end, where it's not unheard of for the game ending turn to be
"I move my mech, dropping two workers on the way to gain an additional 2 hexes, then end the move in your hex, initiate combat, which I then win, sending your mech back to base and taking ownership of this hex and your two metal resources, which I now use to deploy my last mech, giving me an achievement point for winning a battle and an achievement point for deploying all my mechs, and even though my popularity went down, those 3 extra hexes mean that I win by 2 points.... oh wait, you've got 3 more coins than me..."
That's why Saxony was created
Agreed. But it's also true that the 19 turns before that are "kind of plodding".
....and then the endgame as well.
I think my friend has the best description of Scythe ever, "It's a game for people who say they like complex games, but don't want to actually invest the time into learning a complex game." It's pretty telling that the one person in our group that loves it (we'll call him Kythe) is also the one that owns it, and started playing board games the year it was released. Back then Kythe used to tell us that he wished all games would venture into territory as complex as Scythe....lmao. OK
I have noticed that most of the people that love Scythe were getting into board games right around 2016-2017. I don't mind playing it....I just have to bite my tongue every time Kythe tries to tell me that the slow, plodding and boring af nature of the game just means it's "thinky" and open for strategy. We were supposed to all play On Mars one night, but he showed up and hadn't watched any of the rules videos because he didn't think it was worth it to spend that long trying to learn a game and that from what he could tell the game was only complex for the sake of being complex. It's weird....it's almost like he doesn't actually like complex games, lol.
Schyte could really improve with the simple trick of hiding the coins of each player. You just can't math it out now, the end game is as obscure as the designer intended for it to be. We play to have fun, not to win at the expenses of everyone else's fun.
Steampunk mechs without combat.
I always get lost when I watch other channels try to explain a game because they get so bogged down into the technicalities of it or they are just plain annoying. But you guys really get at the core of what the game is really supposed to be all about which really helps me decide if I want the game or not.
I think it's best described as a Cold War Game--where there is adversarial moments, but it's more of you looking at them warily as they do the same. While you have your giant robots in adjacent fields--waiting, watching, sometimes farming :)
Agreed! A lot of the tension is based on who will "crack" first. There's a lot at stake in Scythe when you go to war--popularity, power, and (as Paul mentions in the video) perhaps most importantly, positioning. Ah, the 3 tenets of Steampunk Agrarian Warfare.
Or to look at it in a different way - nothing actually happens, it just threatens to.
"waiting, watching, sometimes farming" lololol I like that :D
As in real life there is a heavy cost to fight and it's best to be avoided.
Sitting as Russia and setting up an Iron Curtain and satellite States is a very good strategy
I just got this game and I’m geeking out uncontrollably. I’m losing sleep cause I just wanna play solo before the next match against friends. The board looks beautiful and for someone who’s only board game was monopoly and chess(which I’ve lost) this is an out of the world experience! I’m already thinking of getting a new board monthly to start.
Something else that makes board games great is the bonding and unrivalled experience of having a games night rather than playing video games even over LAN. Then on top of that I get taken aback by the quality of the art pieces and lore that goes into the making. Stuff like expansion packs and table top purchases are so cool to me. I really need friends that will teach me dungeons and dragons now ....
I'm here from the future, and wanted to ask how your board game hobby has continued?
I also would like to know @aznericxD
I love Paul Dean and I love Scythe. I want more of both. This review doesn’t upset me, though I disagree with it.
What I love about this game is that there is constant tension and fear of a battle, and you might spend many of your turns building up your military power, and then no battle happens in the whole game. It feels like a constant cold war and I love it.
"Lot of gravity in Canada today..." ROFL
I just got this and I would bump the damn things and cubes went everywhere but I love this game
My gaming group is OBSESSED with this game. In my case, I appreciated the theme and mechanics, but it left me a big feeling of emptiness. I will play it again, but prefer other games.
Artwork maybe the best ever but game isnt perfect...its a euro masked as a war game with an end game condition which puzzles me...
What game do you prefer?
@@petarmajstor2370 in a euro, engine building style I prefer Underwater Cities. As a war game I prefer Inis. I know these games don't really compare. Oh, and as a Stonemaier game I prefer Viticulture.
@@dave0754 that inis game looks fun
@@petarmajstor2370 Inis is amzing, and so simple.
3 years after this review, and man I still love this game. There was something about how daunting and confusing it seemed the first time you played that transformed into great satisfaction after finishing the first play through. Still find great enjoyment in setting up the perfect sequence of turns to accomplish multiple bottom row actions in a row!
I love SU&SD reviews, which are almost always spot on, but I almost completely disagree with this one. I can see how he feels it’s a slower game, but in all the times my friends and I have played this game I have never felt that way. I do feel as though it is incredibly mentally stimulating because of how you need to be able to manage your actions effectively and think ahead. This is, without a doubt, the best game that I own in my collection.
Squirrel at second 24! 🙌
That's his animal companion in Scythe that reflects his character.
Best squirrel in a boardgame podcast of 2017.
SU&SD spare no efforts in production
I hope no squirrels were harmed during making the video.
Corban Castro up in yo tree beyatch
SQUIRREL
Quinns’ irrationally angry tone as Paul fails to cross water makes me chuckle over and over.
To put my bias out on the table I Kickstarted Scythe and I love it. I own Inis(h), Rex, Terra Mystica, and Archipelago and will generally play Scythe over any of them unless I'm hankering for a specific experience that those games provide. For example if I want to play something more combat focused I'd throw down Inis, or better yet Kemet.
The issue I see with new players and Scythe is one of cognitive dissonance. People see plastic mechs and tigers and assume it's a combat game. I've taught the game several times to groups of new players and specifically tell them that you generally won't win by fighting all the time and the threat of a fight is often more important than the actual fight. In the end they still see mechs and I generally spend the game obliterating them. At the end I hear one of two responses. One is that I was right it wasn't about fighting and they understand the game now. The second is that it doesn't feel like a good area control / combat game. The latter folks are still running under the assumption that giant mechs = constant fighting. I would often get the same response when I first setup Terra Mystica until the players saw all of the wood pieces. They equate wooden cubes to Euro style games and cognitive dissonance is removed.
I'm honestly glad that the combat system in Scythe is simple to the point of boring because the game isn't about combat. Mechanics that incentivize combat would throw off the flow, if not the balance, of the game. At the end of the day Scythe about engine building. And guess what? It has great engine building mechanics. I don't fault Inis for it's crappy stock market mechanics because it's not a stock market game.
At the end of the day Scythe is by no means a perfect game. It is a fantastic engine building game and one of the best implementations of player interaction in any Euro style game I've ever seen. Scythe is not a good implementation of a 4x / dudes on a map game. Just like TI3 is a poor implementation of a filler, KDM is a poor implementation of a kids game, and Mechs vs Minions is a poor implementation of a MMOBA style board game.
Cognitive dissonance. Cool comment, didn't want to sound like a jerk, but this was super well written with this one blaring mistake :p Take care.
Haha... That's what I get for writing an essay on my cell phone at work. Thanks for being my editor!
Very good argumentation, I must say.
"Scythe is not a good implementation of a 4x / dudes on a map game" And yet that's litterally how the game is described in the manual.
"one of the best implementations of player interaction in any Euro style game" : that maybe it is.
I have played Terra Mystica. I have played Archipelago. I have played Rex. I have played Inis. I will play Scythe over any of them. Terra Mystica is more unbalanced, as proved by the internet over the last few years. I stopped playing it because I played against someone who knew the "Snellman rankings" and just robbed all the fun out of it. I sold my copy. Archipelago is either a lot longer or far too short depending on the objectives you pick and the player count. Plus, building types as end-game triggers? Really? Rex is too long, and I'm told is only truly good at its full player count, and has too much conflict and randomness for my tastes. Inis is the closest to making your point to me, but I find it too back-and-forth and the card draw from both the green action deck and the red special deck too random.
Scythe is plodding, yes, but it accelerates like nobody's business. Yes, some encounter cards are better than others, but the game is in how you can turn the worse ones into your boons. Yes, you are spending a lot of time with your head down in your little engine board, but after you've expanded out just a little bit, all of a sudden you're sitting with EVERYONE on your doorstep. Is the factory worth going for for its three hexes of end-game control? Should you keep your nose down and just churn out resources like crazy and make your people really like you? What about your objectives? Are either of them worth it? Maybe! Maybe to all of the above!
It is not, however, a sandbox. What you must do is figure out, early on, which six achievements are your six, and go for them. Possibly adjust your plans when that early encounter sets you up in a way you absolutely did not expect. But it's just that - an adjustment. A tantalizing temptation of an adjustment that could actually be to your peril.
Some games are games of strategy in that you must untangle a web of nefarious mechanisms with a machete in order to discover your path through the dense undergrowth. Scythe is a game where the strategy is much less obtuse, and you and the other players must all finesse the hell out it as best you can because one little mistake could cost you the entire game. And hey, I've also noticed, that if you get into that situation where it all unravels, at least one person is pretty close to getting all their stars out and you'll be out of your misery in no time.
The best part of Scythe for me is the race. It is constant, from turn one, and the tension from the frustration of the slow starting pace is just right. In only builds, as I see the board start to tighten and I become jealous of everyone else's powers but my own, and I wonder if I'll ever be able to get where I want to go. With skilled Scythe players, it is very much a tense race, and the sequence of everything has to be just right. I've been one turn behind and lost a game, and then was left wondering which action I took was the wrong one. It's tough, but it's also so good. And feels good knowing I was that close. It could be a deficit in the faction/action mat combo. It could have been bad draws. But there are so many combinations coming out of the gate that it's pretty difficult to be 100% sure. Do we want it to be that sure, though?
The only big problem I've found is that the experience gap in this game is HUGE! If you've played a lot (and I have - over 40 plays) you've seen enough of the game that you will blow out new players. And no matter how many times you tell them "It will end way faster than you think it will" no one will ever believe you their first time out until after it's over. And if players try to "hunt the leader" and draw out the game? It doesn't really matter, because everything that involves will also propel those other players toward the finish themselves. The momentum is all forward. Scythe may be slow at points, yes, but what it absolutely never, ever does is stall.
It's interesting that you feel the game is unbalanced when the general consensus I've seen on BGG is that the game is balanced, if anything, to a fault. I'm not saying your experience wasn't valid - one of my friends too has recently claimed that his loss hinged on an encounter card not giving him what he needed - but it does seem to be more of an edge case.
I also recognize that people like different things from different games. For me, Scythe is a really good mild conflict-y game that doesn't make me panic too much and pits me in a battle of wits against my opponents to recognize our own path to victory and chase it down, hard and fast, before someone else beats us to it. It doesn't draw itself out, for a resource management Eurogame; it doesn't make you sit around for another six worker-placement rounds of five workers per player now that you've learned that apparently that combo of occupation cards or furnishing tiles your opponent has put together is surely the best and you will try do the same yourself next time if you get lucky enough to draw them. In Scythe, you either have enough time to do -something- to help your standing, or the game is going to be over in two or three rounds anyway. Those are the things I've found in Scythe that I like most. And you're free to not like them or not feel they're there. Shut Up & Sit Down does not recommend Scythe, and in the words of so many of your reviews, "That's fine."
Excellent retort to show the other side. I think that the mechanics of Scythe are beautiful, turns are quick and games do not feel like they drag on. I hope that anyone who watches this review also reads your reply.
Cool story bro...and I actually mean it. Your dictation of Scythe exemplifies everything I love about the game. Such a great, well rounded experience!
+Ronrocken Rex is best at full 6, the rest are perfectly fine with three and a little lackluster at two but serviceable, including Scythe, imo.
Couldn't agree more with you. Actually i feel the video puts too much reference to the "unbalanced" aspect, just because the encounter cards are not all giving to everyone at every time. But isn't this supposed to be the concept of a random ENCOUNTER card? If your style is of the more exploring one, then it s only natural that you are gonna get better encounter cards..but as a result you might be one or two buildings/upgrades less than other players..
Also, i think the struggle of the paces that the video points out, is only putting up to the atmosphere that this game is built on, it has more to do with the lore of the world of scythe and ti actually accomplishes just that. I ve played this game for sometime now and what i really like is the replayability and not only by the different combinations of factions/economies, but also by the fact that you can play it with almost every strategy you come up with and still get close to victory...
I agree that it's not for everyone but all in all i recommend this game because it really needs you to make a plan and use your brain in a beautifully illustrated and presented steampunk world...also me and my friends decided to play the encounter cards without knowing the results, which adds a great rp element to the faction you play and how you play it, and we found the game so much better , realistic and intense...
Still, the game is a bit boring and slow. I prefer Civilization The Board Game over this. They have similar concepts but Civ is less draging and your decisions feel more impactful. You can get Civ with both (excellent) expansions for half the price you pay for Scythe and I guarantee you get just as much if not more fun out of it.
It's 2022 and I still ❤️ Scythe. It's the boardgame that got me into modern boardgames. It will always have a special place in my heart.
Top 2 strategies that will boost your Scythe skills: 1. Try to plan your turns to always take both actions if possible. Each turn in which you only take one action hurts you exponentially. 2. Enlist, enlist, enlist. The accumulating value of enlisting early, before anything else, will put you out ahead of everyone else.
Happy building!
Got this game last month and my wife and I cant stop playing. Cant say enough great things about it. The more we play the more strategy reveals itself.
We very much differ in tastes. I'm just really really happy i didn't see your review first or I may have missed this one.
The problem with Shut Up & Sit Down is that many of their reviews seem oblivious to general audience's opinions, which is incredibly important to consider. If a reviewer dislikes a game, yet the general consensus is that the game is great, then it's important for the reviewer to realize that most of his audience will likely enjoy the game. A responsible reviewer will then try to figure out why people love the game and why others may be put off of it. This kind of awareness is, unfortunately, missing from a lot of the reviews on this channel. Instead, we get an incredibly biased opinion.
I'm glad you and your wife bought the game and enjoyed it. I'm thinking of buying the game myself once I get some extra spending money. I'm glad I did some research on this game because I too would avoid it if this were the only video I watched about it.
I agree with NoNameC68. SUSD, the more I watch their reviews of various games, seems to have a love for playing “devil’s advocate”, I guess is one way to put it. Almost like they feel they have to have a view on both sides of the fence. Scythe is on so many Top 10 lists, including on boardgamegeek.com (currently #8) that I just don’t know how they come to these conclusions in this video. Same with the Root review.... I enjoy the production quality of the SUSD videos, but sometimes it feels like they’re just trying to provide a balance of pros and cons, even if they have to make some stretches to get there. One minute its all sunshine and roses and you think they actually like the game, then the next its doom and gloom and you wonder how seemingly minor things that most people overlook because the amazing parts are worth it suddenly became the focus that turns the reviewer sour on the game.
Scythe is an amazing game and I don’t feel that it’s ‘plodding along’ at all. I haven’t seen a snowball effect yet for any one faction/economy board combo, either. It seems well enough balanced to me, and crowdsourced popularity on BGG has it high enough that I take this review with a grain of salt.
@@NoNameC68 That is false. Reviewrs job is to present their opinions and explain why they came to such conclusions. You can decide then whether you agree or not, or whether you agree that what a reviewer seen as negative is in your opinion bad or not.
@@andrewuk2781 I mean, to a point.
I used to find the Legend of Zelda series boring and bad. But then I realised the games had universal acclaim and I tried to understand why and maybe tap into that feeling that excited other people so much.
Personally, I find it much more rewarding because if that works you have just found a new game you suddenly like. So a little self awareness isn't a bad thing.
Completely beholding your opinion to the masses is though. Everything in moderation.
@@niallreid7664 Yeah. My point is that the review has to oresent his opinion based on his experience. Then you as a consumer use different opinions and your knowledge of the product and the company to make a decision. Because it may work the other way around: I know many people criticise Forbidden Siren on ps2 but for me the game is good exactly because of the things people find annoying in it. So I can see why many reviewers had issues with it, I just don't see it as a negative.
It's probably not a big selling point for most people, but Scythe has a fantastic solo mode. I'm on the same page as Paul, yet Scythe has stayed in my collection, despite just being an OK game, because the solo mode is so great.
That's because the solo mode was not made by Stegmeier, but by someone else. He probably played the game before being released, got bored, and decidet to do something to make it fun.
Fighting against teleporting and automatically producing mechs and workers is not “fun” but very challenging and rewarding, even if you cheated a little bit.
I like the mechanism with upgrading your boards - the issue for me is finding others that want to play Scythe as it's quite long and takes a bit to get to know the rules.
I've got Terra Mystica (though admittedly not played Inishhh nor Archipelago nor Rex), and I've got to say: Scythe DOES get my blood boiling to a froth more than TM. Perhaps I've just had very close games, but Scythe is much more nailbitingly tense than TM. I think TM is on par intellectually with Scythe (and much more streamlined), but just that threat of combat and more explicitly competing objectives make me want to play Scythe "just one more".
Also, 115 minutes is totally doable. Our very first game with 3 grizzled gamers only lasted around 90 minutes, not including setup.
Mark Browning I agree, Scythe is just a more appealing theme for me. TM is good, but for me Scythe is great!
Scythe is one of my favorite games so far.. i realy love it and i am willing to play it any time.. a very intense game from my experience. BUT BUT....it is NOT a fighting game.. 95% of our games ended with each player having 1 or 2 attacks maximum. Just to get the reward stars.. In some rare cases a player may attack to take some recourses... Its more of a euro style game and the background story of the game, supports it.
Have you ever heard the saying "You may have won the battle, but you haven't won the war"
WWI was full of devastating losses for the Entente.
Wins can be defined as bleeding a country of resources like the Russians did to Germany on the Eastern front in WWI. Wins can be defined as a negotiation. Wins can be defined as merely surviving against tough odds.
The biggest thing you're missing is Scythe isn't a wargame. Stop trying to make it one. Battles are one avenue to secure a victory.
And it's color-blind friendly!!! That caught my attention!
Is it? That's cool!
You know what I love about this review (apart from the great British humour it brings)? The fact that it spawned so many views and comments, of all kinds. I think the review does a good job of describing the general style and pace, and some of the comments qualify them well (such as the increasing tension and pace towards the end of the game). So all in all, a good balanced opinion that will either put you off or suck you in depending on whether YOU are likely to like it based on your preferences. Good stuff...what reviews are for really.
I got to play Scythe a few weeks ago. I found it a lot more enjoyable than expected, but I've been identified as a "Builder" player type. So I enjoyed expanding, and upgrading and building, and I didn't really care that combat wasn't a focus.
I backed Scythe on Kickstarter based purely on the fact that I like Stonemaier Games' games.
Paul's concerns about combat are the same things I was worried about, although they are also the opposite. I'm not interested in battling, confrontation, and action, so I was pleasantly surprised to discover the way combat is implemented in this game -- as something that you really have to carefully consider. As a not particularly aggressive boardgamer I really dreaded the possibility of having to flatten my opponents with an army of mechs -- the sort of threat of negative consequences of combat, giving the game a sort of arms race, cold war feel, was just what I wanted from a game with mechs. The mechs were about theme for me, not about the fighting.
Scythe is one of the best looking games out there. Even though we have only played it once, we do recommend it. We also purchased the metal coins for the game. The coins are intricate in their design and beautiful to hold. A fantastic addition to the game and well worth buying. I’ll agree with Paul that the game builds slowly but for us this adds to its appeal.
Knowing nothing about this game before watching this review, I feel... a bit let down by Paul's description of it. Something I've always loved about SUSD is their ability to paint the broad strokes of a game's ideas/themes/mechanics, then get into the details and piece it apart. I'm at the 20:00 mark here and I'm not even certain what the goal of the game is. Without context of what ends we're trying to reach, all the talk of movement and battle and upgrades all just seems inconsequential. Feeling like some more editing is needed here.
To be true probably the weakest part of the game is why we are doing what we doing. Basically it is to be the richest because being rich and developed is good.
That's because it's a point salad game. You do stuff and get points for it. In it's defense, it's a point salad game where you choose your path early on, rather than just doing a bit of this and bit of that, but it still lacks that unified focus.
I couldn't agree more . I was actually quite bored by his rambling on about the mechanics without any attempt at a unifying thread. Also, why did this need to be 20min+?
Perhaps that's because there is no unifying thread in Scythe - only mechanics that you deploy for the sake of deploying mechanics, because when you've deployed one enough times you get a star.
It's Settlers of Catan, or Tiny Epic Kingdoms, if you were playing Catan or TEK in a spa filled with porridge. 'So much prettier than those other games' you say, and 'look at my giant bear and my cool mech', but you're still up to your armpits in oatmeal doing much the same stuff, and at the end of the day your bear and your mech is no different from a cube.
Which is, you know, actually the unifying thread of the review, but it seems to have gone over your head, as well as @Ben Green's.
Cannot agree more with the review. All this hype i don't get. It is a fairly good game BUT there are so many better ones out there that make you wanna yell ''DAMN what a fantastic game''.
I also do not like the euro feel of keeping to your own with almost no player interaction.
Art wise it is simply fantastic and very thematic. Theme wise the victory conditions-points are to the point.
A feast for the eyes more than the brain.
Solid review, very thorough. You pointed out that there are other games that do "this" or "that" better, like Rex, Terra Mystica, or Inis. However, for me at least, I just absolutely love that Scythe combined all those mechanics (albeit not as deep as those other games) into one box with a theme that is very appealing and with very high quality components. It's a game that can scratch multiple itches for my friends and I, easily making it one of my favourite games.
I must disagree with your assessment of it being unexciting tho. The game is an engine builder. It starts off slow, and picks up a lot. By the end game, once multiple players are close to placing their final star, it becomes very tense and turns become quick with lots of things happening.
Looking forward to the next review!
Scythe is an engine building and economic game. The problem is that people see mechs and think of combat. Yes the game can get boring if you just don’t care for the type of gameplay.
Paul I def respect your opinion on this game. I personally love this game! Thank you for taking the time to review it. :D
I appreciated Paul’s take the first time I saw it because, at the time, I’d played 2-3 games of Scythe and gotten hamstrung every time. However, being newish to modern board games, I assumed it was my inability to grok the game, not the game itself.
I’ve since played Scythe with other players - and finally managed to win against humans, albeit new players - and bought the game to play solo, and I’ve come around for a bunch of reasons.
The look of it is spectacular, no question. Hard to say that’s not a selling point for me.
But as a newish boardgamer, playing this game solo (with the app keeping track for the AI - a must!) has taught me more how to strategize a point salad game, to look at the player mat and factions and maximize what’s there. I’m glad to have this in my collection now. (Not interested in Inis, Terra Mystica, Archipelago, or the other games Paul mentioned.)
I would say Scythe is not going to scratch that itch for players who want more/constant interaction, fighting, and conquering. This is not that kind of game.
Inis is great, though. Better, arguably.
I've played this game for over a year at the time of writing this, about 10+ games with different combinations of the same 5 total players. I have the first expansion for additional player variety.
As far as criticism goes, this isn't the most complicated game under the sun, and a lot of people equate that to being boring, which is fine. I won't ever try to minimize somebody's interest or lack thereof for a game, people just enjoy different types of things. My elevator pitch for this game has always been "Settlers of Catan, but fun" which is an exaggerated dig at Catan having played it so many times and it being a sort of gold standard for entry-level board games. It plays similar to me, minus the trading aspect which is probably the most interesting part of Catan. I think Scythe more than makes up for not having a trading mechanic with its clever moving mechanics and upgrading systems, adding a layer of complexity to a resource management game.
The end game scoring system is hard to explain to people who haven't played, and I think that's a bummer for new players if they are playing with a group that already understand this. This is the most consistent issue I see people have, but once you play a game and see it in action and see specifically why you won/lost a game, it becomes much more interesting and opens you up to various strategies you hadn't thought of. This couples with the random selection of player/production boards makes each game new and interesting.
However, I think the magic of Scythe hides in the way it tells you how to play the game without having to pour over the rulebook between every turn. Of course there are some niche things you'll look up occasionally, but the double board system is magical. This game is legitimately beautiful to look at, and I think that's a large part of its appeal, but its systems are very straight forward in its cost/gain mechanics: how they are laid in front of you in the form of tactile upgrade blocks, buying workers straight off your board to reveal new costs, recruiting to gain immediate rewards and open up triggers for collecting additional ones, revealing mech powers, etc. I subscribe to the player base of people that like shiny things. I didn't kickstart this game, but to be honest I probably would have if I had known about it. I bought the metal coins after playing this game two times. I was gifted the Meeple resource tokens (which are amazing and I recommend). I bought the board expansion so I can look at everything in extra detail. I bought the second expansion despite never having enough players for a full 7 player game just to look at the new mechs and token and characters. It is such a great 'collector' game and it looks amazing sprawled across my newly refinished dining room table.
But I also think it's fun. And I think a lot of other people will think it's fun. Do I think it's currently 7th BoardGameGeek overall rating is due largely to its insane production quality? Yes. But do I think that's a bad thing? Absolutely not.
I love the art work in this game.
I obsess over it. A believeable (is that written correct?) form of steampunk. I have nothing with steampunk, but this.... i dunno... its like finding something of which i didnt knew i lost it.
1 problem.
Not every table is big enough..... thats a unique experience for me haha
@@juliusraben3526 It's dieselpunk.
For me, Scythe is probably the greatest boardgame I ever played - at least when it comes to competitive games. The production quality is stunning, the mechanics are awesome and it's indeed very well balanced (except the factions from Invaders, which have a huge disadvantage compared to the core factions). I LOVE SCYTHE!
I'm on board with you, Paul. The only substantive addition I can make to your criticism is that I worry the game is pretty solvable. While there are differing combinations of boards, and encounters can change the resources available to you in the early game, overall I feel quite confident that any given set up has a most efficient path through the development process. I don't like games where the best way to succeed is to study the action sequencing outside the game to memorize the most effective play pattern. And the interaction comes too late to disrupt early-game sequencing.
This
Most relevant comment in the entire comment section as far as actual gameplay is concerned.
Normally, I love and usually agree with SUSD. And just to put it out there, I did back this game. But I feel like these guys were biased against the game before they started the review. Many of the mechanisms of scythe are present in multiple of the other games that they've recommended, and the only difference here to me seemed like "this game is mega popular, so let's take the opposite opinion". I agree, the game can be plodding. and player interaction does need a framework. But it's still a great game :) just my two cents, still love you guys :)
Did you watch the video? They basically pointed out exactly what you said except they said "it's a good game, play it if it interests you and you'll enjoy it, but there's better games out there with the same mechanics". So I don't really think they went all "opposite opinion" day on you.
Well, they said there are games that have better mechanics than individual mechanics in Scythe. And I'd agree. But in terms of a balance of a little bit of everything, I don't know of anything better, personally. It's kind of like a "greatest hits" of game mechanics across both Euro and Ameritrash games.
And yet ultimately underwhelming at least to me.
I haven't watched the video yet, but based on what they said in a recent podcast episode, I was expecting a negative-ish review. I agree that it seems like they had already formed a general opinion before going into this, based on it being a Kickstarter, hype, popularity, etc. If they didn't end up liking it, it's fine. I still love it, and them!
I don't think there's anything in this game that I'd consider Ameritrash. It's a straight Euro.
Coming back to this video after having owned and played Scythe for years now, it's arguably my favorite game and while he may have some good points...it's still a great game. It is the go to option for us on a game night.
Just want to say, this is probably the most civil comments sections I've seen of a RUclips video being less than glowing in it's review of something that's hugely popular. SUSD fans are the best :D
Shut the fuck up
The first video where I disagree with the recommendation of SU & SD. Scythe to me is more enjoyable than Terra Mystic and certainly more than Inis. For me it is the threat of combat and the managing of resources that make the game so enjoyable.
I played this recently with friends. The only hassle was learning the system, but it was really simple and fast after the table was in the groove.
I can understand where SU&SD is coming from for this review, but for me personally, this game scratches the itch that Twilight Imperium does, but in a fraction of the time. Yes, I know a lot of the mechanisms are different, but the basic feel of the game with relatively slow engine building and asymmetrical powers is the same.
Edit: Ironically, 4 years later, I still have more plays of TI than I do of Scythe.
I feel the same way. TI is my #1 game, but I keep debating on whether Scythe has actually taken that slot.
This is bang on my view as well, Scythe allows me the vibe of TI3 in half the time and for that alone, it is a great achievement. Not a game I'm going to play often, but always one that I will enjoy.
Couldn't agree more. My group took the Twilight Imperium plunge a while back, and now we can't help but use it as the stick by which all other games are measured. Obviously, nothing quite measures up, but when we want a deep, strategic game and don't have a full day to commit, Scythe hits closer to the mark than anything else we've tried.
Thanks for this. I have been wondering why it felt sort of familiar & was wondering if the new hyped up Scythe fans had not played more empire builder type games before. TI is a great example. Of course Scythe has Euro sensibilities like Terra Mystica and I prefer that. (I can do without conflicts & detente.)
I honestly couldn't disagree any more. Twilight Imperium is a game of negotiation, diplomacy, gunboat diplomacy, and inevitably war. You're bumping elbows with your neighbors from turn 2 on forward, sometimes even turn 1. I've had nigh-game deciding fights round 2, I've had games that devolved to 1 v All, I've had games that were nearly combat free.
Scythe just feels like... Scythe.
One of my favorite games. I actually played for the first time with the purple and green last night and don't feel that they were imbalanced at all, since those four little traps or four little flags that they got to lay still weren't as beneficial to them as the fact that my worker meeples could swim across rivers. And the other person could bounce to any unused faction home base. So their little "minus two hearts" trap felt very insignificant compared to the benefits that we had. Purple came in second place though because she used her other stuff wisely. That's what's fun about this game, there are so many ways to go at it!
Allison (The green group) are underrated. With the flags they can avoid looking threatening or intimidating but still score high on territories.
I've watched this entire video, and I still have absolutely no idea about what happens in this game or how it is played.
(That's not a criticism of the video, btw)
I've played Scythe and I still don't have any idea what happens in it. I got the rules, but the game itself is monumentally uninteresting.
With Scythe, that can happen. I played it twice, and at the end of the game I was like "Ok, I moved some mechs on the map, I uncovered some tokens, I unloked some powers... So, what is this game about?". You had to watch just a video of 23 minutes, say "thank you".
InnerPartisan first day me and my brother spent 3 hrs learning and setting up the board and another 3-4 hrs to finish a match. Time flew and it was great!
I personally love this game! After one or two games I really understood it. I found myself planning out strategies 5 turns in advance all while managing the politics of the game so that my resources would not be jeopardized. Once you play it a couple times it all clicks in.
Rodney's How to Play video for Scythe is 33 minutes long. In my experience, it can take an hour to teach to someone who's totally unfamiliar with it. This is a major problem with the game. There are too many things.
Having played this game a few times, I can say this is my favourite board game so far. The Wind Gambit expansion is a must though, with some really good tweaks to how the game ends (less abrupt), and also has got optional airships! Kewl!
But I really enjoyed Terra Mystica too, which was one of my favourite games until I tried this.
*edit*
The odd thing about it is that it was fun the first few times, but it didn't blow me away. It felt like it was more or less solvable (get lots of popularity and you win). But after like the 10th game, it was at least 10 times as fun as the first game. It just grows and grows. The main drawback is that it does have balance issues which crop up after many plays, though BGG gives quite a few suggestions for fixes.
My mind is still blown about the combined reference to Glengary Glen Ross and Poirot at 10:48. Well played.
0:30 Hey. Your wood gatherer frightened a squirrel
The first skit is now way funnier after playing the game.
I think all of Paul's criticisms are valid and I agree with most of them, but the review just seems to be permeated in this weird... bias? Like in the Caverna review he was ecstatic over all tge bits and baubles and choices jusr because they were there, ignoring what all of that meant for the game. In this video he seems to be turned off by the amount of stuff or at least seems to be sarcastically referencing how ridiculous it is.
Of course his rabidness in the Caverna video was possible more the the sketch and not his actual views, it just seemed strange. From what I know about Paul and sexy magic purple bowls, I thought the surplus of wooden bits and fun minis would make his loins froth.
You also have to consider that the Caverna and the Terra Mystica review were two and three years ago, respectively. People do change their opinions, after all.
In at least one podcast, I think Quinns and Paul both said that recently, they generally prefer focused, sharp games over ones with lots of stuff.
That's also a very fair point! Like I said, I don't think any of the actual meat and potatoes of his argument are wrong in any way, and his "too much stuff" criticism isn't even something I disagree with, it's just not what I expected from Paul!
I still love me some bibs and bobs though, I think I have problems. Time to go cuddle sexy magic purple bowls in my room!!
Yeah, when you review games as a hobby and can only get so many so often, you treasure what you can get. When it's your job and you've seen a dozen of something you thought was fun the first time, it can be much harder to overlook flaws. I would take this as a bigger indictment against things they've reviewed in the past than a point for Scythe.
He did kinda like Feast for Odin though and that game has alot more bits than Scythe
I hate Terra Mystica. I really enjoyed Scythe. They may have things in common, but I don't see that they are on the same playing field.
very fair and realistic analyse. I had the same feeling without being able to explain it. it is done. thank you, it was like a therapy lol.
Despite SUSD not recommending scythe I really enjoyed the reviewm Scythe is a new favourite in the house hold mostly as my partner and I enjoy a very slow paced game where we can sit down and make every decision count. The slow and methodical march seems to match the feel of a game set in which you are trying to kickstart an economy after a massive war so it feels at home. I have noticed that beimg just 1 popularity behind as the game ends can easily lose everything for you, and I dominated the voard but had just one less popukarity, tossing me into a lower earning category and causing me to receive 1 less coin on EVERYTHING and thereby losing by $1. I agree the game isn't for everyone but it's a pretty nice experience
The SUSD crew are starting to remind me of people that I know that have consumed too much of their passion. It's like the guy you know who's heard every single classic Rock and Roll song ever produced. When that guy hears a new song by a new band that everyone likes, their comments always trend towards "Oh, yeah, that's pretty good. But really it's just a combination of these 2 other songs by better artists. If you want gritty blues feel, listen to this. If you want that pop feeling they're going for, just listen to this instead."
It's weird, because for most of us, we don't care that it's made up of those other things, because THIS thing is pushing all those buttons for us. And while I appreciate the information that there is this really cool older stuff I can explore if I want more of the thing I like, it always feels weird to hear "I don't recommend this new bigger thing because I think you should play this smaller simpler version of the 1/3 of it that you like."
I've started to ignore their final "SUSD Recommend" comments, but I still love watching their reviews. I listen to what they're saying, and then I always mentally apply the filter "If their complaint is directly tied to the games they've played before, disregard". I simply haven't played all the games they've played, and a lot of the games they've played and are still in love with don't work for me or my group. So if the only reason they didn't like it is because they're still in love with Fury of Dracula, or TM, or whatever, then that complaint just means less to me. However, they always FILL their reviews with all sort of information, so just listening to them talk always makes a more informed decision for me. So despite the criticism, I love what these guys are doing.
Mason, that's a really insightful description of their reviews. I agree with you completely -SU&SD, by dint of playing sooooo many games and having such a depth of knowledge about the hobby, don't always represent the "regular" gamers in my group, who as you aptly described, don't care at all about whether or not a tune's a cover or if the bass line was ripped out of another song or if it's only really good on vinyl. My group loves Betrayal, for example, which for me lost its charm as soon as I analyzed the mechanics. As an amateur designer, though, the depth of their reviews is compelling for me, and I usually find our interests aligned. I think they've done an excellent job recently of making their positions clear, and they seem to be really working hard at modulating their knowledge.
I was going to write this as a counter, but then midway I realized that while you are sort of criticizing them for the "recommendation" part, in the same breath you turn that around and turn it to your favor. Which is really what everyone should do.
Because that's what this whole business is about. A reviewer drawing references to other things of the same variety while at the same time clearly shaping who they are and what their preferences are, is supposed to help the viewer make a wise decision with their money.
It is NOT about agreeing with the reviewer at all times. Or even, at all. It is perfectly possible to enjoy almost none of the same things and for that very reason to know that you can generally do the opposite of what they recommend. Or something inbetween.
The only important thing is that you trust and like what they do. I gotta tell you...I don't even care about board games, but I enjoy these videos IMMENSELY, right now. They are just really good at what they do... informative, funny, witty and all that good stuff.
Well...I didn't think I'd care. Or tried to subconsciously shield myself from getting into YET ANOTHER awesome time-consuming rabbit hole.
I think the "recommends seal" is more just there because people expect it in review videos and it drives discussion (like the one we're having right now!). It is by and far the least important part of SUSDs videos. Their reviews tend to be so comprehensive that you would know if you want the game or not without hearing their official "verdict" or whatever.
dorpth sorry to say this but on the blood rage bid, y actually agree I’ve played all four of those games they all have cards minis and combat (ok cosmic encounter has simple spaceship like discs and a very simple way of working conflict but in the end it is all there) the point is for me blood rage was a bit of a grey game, one that wanted to do soo many things but in the end the fact that it desires to be a shorter stream lined game a.k.a not a heavy war-game is damages the excitement for me, so if you want a heavy game about civilizations developing just to crack the skulls of each other please look at forbitten stars is a very long but very exiting game if you have lots of people but want a relaxed time plundering your friends worlds well that’s cosmic encounter for you and finally if you like magic and there is only to of you BattleLore is an excellent war that will make you love to end a Mach and try it again with another faction, in short blood rage is not a bad game but if you like that one you like that one you might want to those other ones, who knows you might find something you love, one of my favorite games is eclipse, and it was a gift from a friend who knew we couldn’t play an 8 hour twilight imperium, but who looked at this space euro with some combat and sure I kill my friend in there.
Bought this as my first board game, spent the weekend on it with 3 other friends (also their first board game) and after the first few hiccups (took us 2 - 3 hours to start out first game lol) we had an absolute blast, there's just so much to do, so many ways to build your way to victory, already scheduled another session for this weekend, we are stoked
"Always be certain
-Alec Baldwin
-Paul"
-Michael Scott
What I like about your reviews is that you care about my wallet more than I do.
Doesn't Kingdom Death: Monster have more, & not less though?
Watching this in 2019.... We miss you Paul!
Did paul leave?
Zack W I never got what happend to him :(
@@yb-king_crow4418 Yeah, he gave personal reasons. We aren't entirely sure why, but it seems to be a typical case of wanting to do your own thing.
@@niallreid7664 Also quite difficult to run a jointly hosted show from two sides of the Atlantic.
He's a Dick
This deserves a rereview
God this game is so good. Even better with the expansions. One bottom action can be the difference between victory and defeat...its great...👍👍
Many compare it to Blood Rage, Inis or other area control games but the truth is, Scythe feels like a farming game more than anything else.
Yes, your land is shared by everyone and there is “combat”, but this is really just a costly way to push other players away from the central area. It is a very tranquil game, where you and your friends mostly peacefully collect resources and build upgrades for your farm/economy. The very protagonists of this game are the workers. Mechs and Character can be seen as 'special units' that allows the player to do additional things and help workers.
Resources are not really scarce and there are ways to gather them even if you don’t control a specific hex. Combat is rather weak and nobody dies. Nobody can stop you from doing upgrades (à la Agricola).
All of this makes this game very solitary and non confrontational, Scythe is a true Stonemaier game.
But I can understand why Jamey Stegmaier cleverly chose to apply a more interesting background and art than the overused agricultural theme. This strategy paid quite well, looking at how the game performed on Kickstarter and BGG...
So in conclusion, the lack of focus is the main problem I have with Scythe. Every time it makes me wish rules were a bit different; for example, each achievement could be claimed by only the player that puts the first star down; or the buildings could defend themselves if an opponent enters their hex. But then I realise that I am probably just looking for a different game. Something a bit more confrontational, something where your actions make the opponent rethink about his strategy. Something where is worth playing with other people.
You might want to give a try to "The Wind Gambit" expansion and its different resolution modes, some of them sound like what you are looking for!
I certainly understand your point.Great read!
Wow. You could tell the final conclusion from the tone through-out. I have yet to play it but the people that love it seem to really love it and I've heard quite a few people say it's only ok. I own it and I want to play it but the solo mode looks like the only way I'll get it to the table.
Eric Finley it does nothing really new other than just having all this stuff mashed together and making it interesting. But it is at least a very good game if you like engine building games. The KS criticisms just not belong with this game at all.
ppl who spend a lot of money on this game are going to tell you that's great. But it's not.
I've finally got to play Scythe and, after several plays all with different factions, I'll never play Terra Mystica ever again. For me, it's a more focused and specific game when you can do exactly what you want on every turn instead of just sitting there like a moron because you messed your maths a bit and have one terrible turn while everyone else just keep doing cool stuff.
And why is the number of bits a problem now? Freakin' Feast for freakin' Odin looks like several puzzles and boardgames smashed together by a madman, yet somehow this was a problem. It never felt like it's overwhelming for me or my group, we played with 5 and 6 players and never played a game longer than those 150 minutes.
And yes, I like how it looks on the table, sue me :)
And that's my problem with it: you can do exactly what you want. It doesn't matter what the others do most of the time. Why would I play that as a multiplayer game then? As you mentioned Terra Mystica, I'll just list the ways you compete in that one:
- Picking your faction at the start of the game matters, so does initial placement.
- Power actions are once per turn, so you have to time them well.
- Where you build matters as it can cut others from easy to transform tiles and it impacts town formation and end game scoring.
- How high you are on the cults also matters and you can block others from getting higher
- When you pass matters because it sets the play order for next round and because you compete for bonus cards.
Scythe has map competition, but no common action pool, no common objectives to compete for, you get your faction randomly, etc. I hoped one of the expansions would solve these problems, but it doesn't look like it. Even watched the Fenris spoiler review, still meh.
Actually there is/are common objectives. There is always one drawn at random per game. Which usually involves building next to certain types of territories. So territory\tunnel control is really important as is building placement.
As for faction selection, if you want it to matter you can house rule like many groups do. Some competitive groups draft or use an auction handicap system.
My first couple games i also had the feeling that it is to much solitaire. But once you play it more often and players get more experience it completely changes.
If you only do your thing it is a certain way to loose. Territory control does not seem to be important, but mech/worker placement is immensely important, for spreading yourself before the game ends or prohibiting others to spread. If you do not control enough territories and end the game you are gonna loose.
The factory and encounters are usually also highly competed for it. Encounters are always rewarding sometimes more sometimes less. Being first at the factory usually gives you first pick of the factory card. Which are pretty good most of the time. But not guaranteed to fit your strategy. It also gives your second move action which is always good.
But you always weigh , when should you go in. When are the others planning to go in. The factory also counts as three territories at the end of the game.
As for player interaction i love how combat works in the game. But that is a long topic.
In my opinion. if you think you can do whatever you do in your games of Scythe, you are not playing with competent players.In comparison there is a lot more interaction between players in scythe then in Terra mystica. Territory control and a good sense of when and where to fight are essential in winning games in Scythe.
I like both games, but Scythe has way more player interaction when played competitively compared to Terra Mystica
Oh Enlisting Recruits is also very underestimated by beginners. Picking the right recruits can give you a ton of free stuff, or nothing at all because you guessed wrong or opponent adapted because he does not want you to get free stuff.
I love this game. I have played this Scythe with new gamers, people who are brand new to modern games and hardcore gamers... Every Time, we had an exciting and enjoyable play experience. Because of the randomness in the player abilities, the faction mats and action mats, each time was different and interesting. Every once in a while you pull the perfect combination of player mat and action mat, but it only makes you good at 1 thing... nothing that would unbalance the game to the point of there being no competition.
If you are curious about this game... buy it, you will not be sorry.
Oh, and Every expansion has only enhanced the play experience... its not "just more stuff"... its more possibilities. The Rise of Fenris is especially Fantastic.
love the nature touch. Even the squirrel ;-)
Subscribed! Your honest reviews are very appreciated.
Love this game. It looks challenging but very accessible. I love Inis as well but it is a game that usually falls flat on the first play and is hard for people to wrap their heads around a particular strategy which in turn turns them off to the game. So far Scythe has been a lot of fun and I look forward to bring it to the table any chance I get.
Haha omg I just realized the joke in the intro from the river cross ability that you can only cross rivers into a special territory but can't necessarily cross back 🤣 and wood of course a resource in the game
Coming back to this review after playing this game for years with my group and it becoming easily our favorite game, I kind of get where you guys are coming from.
Here's the thing, Scythe is not for everyone, just like chess is not for everybody. There is definitely a skill component to this game. We lucked out because we all started learning the game together and got better at it together. But, whenever a new person joins our group and wants to play Scythe with us, I can fully understand them thinking what is being pointed out in this review. The beauty of scythe is working within your limitations and finding that route to building an engine of actions that enables you to have a completely viable and unique route to winning. Every game, this will be different. This is what makes it so appealing to me and my group. I would say that after playing this game more than 5 times and with a bit of help from a supportive group, you'll be primed to make these tactical decisions and feel good about your strategy, regardless of the fact that you lose or win. The games are always intense and there is always a chance that the top dog will mess up, or fail to see a tactic another weaker player may employ.
I would say that if your group is competitive, eager to learn and give a game its due time to fully show its potential, then you have a future favorite on your hands.
Paul actually made a fair review even disliking the game. I guess that's what you get for almost forcing them to do review of a game they didn't want to review. The criticism in this video has a very targeted audience: KS supporters that wanted a nice review of the game to validate their buy/pledge. I bought myself a copy of this game (yet to be released in Brazil) and played it once before knowing all the hype around it (so was immune) and I really liked the _experience_ of playing it.
Good point Adam, and this kind of meaningful review is what I (and I believe most of theirs audience) like about it (and also they are funny). But think that the main criticism in this review is towards the "KS way" of making games and how sometimes less is better than more stuff and not Scythe specifically. They also reviewed games with almost the same amount of content and I can't remember if they ever complained the amount of stuff in games like Terra Mystica..
They (or rather Quinns) did in the review for Caverna. "Maybe there is too much stuff to do"?
Although I agree with almost every single thing he said about this game (he was a bit too generous on some points, in my opinion), I will admit that I am very biased because the primary people I have attempted to play this game with are shite at simply having fun learning a game and being patient and kind with each other. This is definitely NOT a good game to test an already competitive relationship, or a good venue to sandwich your inexperienced friends into if they aren't already into this type of game. Long story short, certain others may have ruined my experience with Scythe for good, and I have no reason to break it out in the future. If I do attempt to play for some apocalyptic reason, I will go it solo. In the meantime, I find myself wandering out of conversations that involve this game or how good it is. It's not that I don't recognize how well put together it is- I. Just. Don't. Like. It. :(
Thanks for the honesty. Frankly, most of these shows end with two thumbs up with self disgust on their faces.
I played this game and I only fought once and won. It was fantastic I was strategically collecting and moving to as many empty spaces as possible while collecting popularity to make sure my points were higher, and it was so close so tenuously close riveting. We played for 4 hours but it only felt like 1 and a half hours.
What I like about these reviews is that they allow me to know in advance which games I may like, and which games I should stay away from. This particular game, despite of all the hype, I can clearly see is not for me. Thanks for the video!
I didn't kickstarted Scythe (or anything else). I've never heard of Scythe until the UKGE 2016.
I don't think Scythe has anything that is there just for the sake of kickstarter so I'm not sure the complaints about kickstarter actually match this game.
There are many games that aren't kickstarted that have as much or more stuff as Scythe.
I agree that it is not a game that is going to be like "OMG I've never seen this before!". On the other hand I've never seen a game marrying all those concepts and actually being a nice streamlined game that I want to play again and again.
Having different games that do one single aspect better doesn't make them an alternative to a game that has all the aspects.
I don't understand the problems with combat - it is a lot like rex and kemet.
It is also quite the bluffing game. "Oh. He has a ton of cards and over 7 power. So I'm going to be destroyed so lets pay only 1 power so I qualify for the combat card loser bonus. WTH. He only payed 2 power!!!!".
I think games should be judged on their merits and not because they started as kickstarter and had huge hype.
Having listened to the SUSD podcasts I was not surprised with this review but I think had Scythe not been a kickstarter and had that hype the review could have been more positive.
I kickstarted Scythe, and I waited for it with trepidation. Scythe is boring. 4X game... Stegmeier has no idea what a 4X game is. His game is an engine builder, a boring one.
webtake Your not doing it right then.😉
I'm new to the channel and decided after several entertaining reviews to watch a review of a game that I own - for context as to accuracy of opinions, if I could manage. I'm glad I did, because this is... Such a bunk review. Dude clearly wants to play a video game instead... Fantastic game. Gorgeous art style. So much replayability. Game pace is reasonable when you understand the relevant mechanics - and the game is totally able to be played alongside good, off-topic conversation, thanks to the incredibly intuitive design.
I venture that he didn't understand the game mechanics sufficiently to disagree with the suggested game duration and I thought it humourous that there seemed to be as many minutes criticising the amount of components in the box as there were recommendations of games that appeared to have heaps of components in the box.
I get that some of my disagreements are related to preference, but a lot of what was presented here was objectively incorrect, such as the omission of how mobile you are in the late game and the farcical fumbling with pieces.
Dude even whinged about making the review! Poor fellow...
Grain of salt requirement duly noted; however, I'll note this is the first time I've seen this presenter, so...
His name is Paul Dean, and he found the channel with Quinns in 2011 but left the team in 2018, so there's not much of his video posted on youtube(SU&SD used to post their videos on Vimeo). Too bad you had a bad first impression with him. This review is arguably the most controversial review SU&SD ever done. You'll get to like him, though. I'm under impression that Paul is actually the most eurogame-loving guy of the team, and definitely not a guy who just wants to play a video game.
I whole-heartedly recommend that you watch his reviews of Kingdom Death, Battlelore, and Azul, which are both brilliant and entertaining as hell.
And yes, every review by SU&SD should be taken with pinch of salt, since your thoughts on the game are the most important thing for you, not reviwers'.
I played Scythe with my board game group and while I had an alright time I was surprised at how little it felt like the mechs and the cool animal friends really were present in the game. Maybe I just haven’t played it enough and it has been a while, but I don’t remember the mechs doing anything particularly mech like. In fact, outside of the factory and the text of the event cards, it seemed like the theme had very little to do with the actual gameplay. I think that the art and theming in Scythe is wonderful and that gameplay could be pretty good, but the art and theming seemed to have little to do with the gameplay outside of just being being in the same box. I think that I share a similar view of Scythe’s quality with SU&SD. However, I’d argue that this game isn’t for people who like mechs, cool animal friends, and places that look like the late Austro-Hungarian empire, because none of those things are really present in the gameplay itself.
A game where you can slyly avoid combat to achieve the final Victory Point objective and win like a champ. I even got the promo cards and the expansion and the board expansion.
We need a movie based on that universe. A movie with explosions. _Some_ explosions.
It seems SUSD prefers games that are more thematic and tell a narrative. Scythe is more about planning, strategy, and Cold War persistence. Scythe is a deep methodical game. Therefore, Scythe does not fit the shows idealistic expectations. Scythe achieves what it sets out to achieve. It is ten dimensional chess! With mechs.
I've just watched this again for the first time in years and only just noticed the squirrel running up the tree in the opening sequence. 😂
it's not a grind, it's an engine. the first 5 turns seem slow, the next 5 get faster, and so on and so on to the point the last 5 are at lightning speed
and as for "we don't always need more stuff" btw SU&SD gave a half recommendation Caverna and (oh God) a Feast for fucking Odin, which IMO both have twice as much. just seems hypocritical
I don't want 5 heavily scripted slow turns to start out before I enjoy a game.
Matt Brown I play it a lot online with a group of friends. the 6 of us can get through through the first 5 rounds in less than 5 minutes.
Building an engine over 2 and a half hours sounds like torture.
I don't feel like the first 5 turns are scripted. I've tended to debate the precise pathway I want to start building my engine on more than one case, dependent on the faction and player mat combination I get, as well as my secret objectives.
"we don't always need more stuff" means that sometimes they need
I always wanted to hear SU&SD opinion on rise of fenris, it really changed this game for me
"Like hot mayonnaise from a cracked jar."
Is this why Matt does the cooking?
I honestly think Scythe is one of the best games I've ever played and highly recommend it to anyone. Its a Euro for sure, and while it masks itself as a war game with Mechs, there isn't a huge amount of direct interaction, but that doesn't matter.
Yeah if you are looking for a game that you fight non stop then don't get this, but if you like euro game philosophy, not a crazy point salad compared to most Euros as you can usually estimate your current standing in the game unless you are a new player.
The one thing he didn't mention is that its fast paced and you are constantly thinking ahead. Its not overly thinky, however, since you really have 3 choices each turn with the macro actions (theres 4 total but you can't take the same action two turns in a row unless u are imba Russviet (red faction )😆, but it just feels so good. It reminds my a lot of puerto rico I how the game seems fast paced until the final few turns. And it just feels good to get your economy engine going. Its peurto rico with more direct interaction and a map to worry about.
Theme and components are too notch obviously but I honestly think thay he go too wrapped up into his expectations of what it was going to be. Its not a war game, but God damn this game is good
Please take this video review with a grain of salt. Dice tower did a top 100 games a few months ago and I know at least a few had this in thier top 10, one of the new guys had it at #1, and it was also the community's #1. I cant recommend this game enough
I’m not one for complicated board games, but the 1920+ universe is so incredibly cool and unique.
As far as board games go this really isnt overly complicated. The game does a good job of making sure everything is user friendly
One of my new favorite games, possibly ever. I think it's better than those you mentioned when comparing. I hadn't even heard of the game until recently when I saw it at a book store and just bought it on the spot. Wonderful game.
DCAMM720 have you played archipelago or Rex or inis? Very much doubt you have done all three.
Why would you say that? What would make you think a complete stranger on the internet hasn't played these games?
Yes, I have. Archipelago is okay, not my favorite. Rex is good, not my favorite. Inis is quite good, but not my favorite.
Feels like you automatically get knocked down a few pegs with SUSD if you're a kickstarter game.
When I first started watching this I went in with the thought, "Oh, I wonder how much SU&SD like Scythe", then I heard the review and was surprised to hear you didn't like it. I haven't played it myself mind you. but every other review I've heard, both online and from close friends, tell me the game is amazing, a must play.... you guys just threw a wrench in my expectations.
They don't necessarily agree with everyone on everything. See also: Betrayal at the House on the Hill, which is massively popular, but Quinns feels like we're obliging 30 minutes of wasted time for the good part.
I like the idea of games like this, but get so overwhelmed when I try them. Can't wait for the Cones of Dunshire video ;)
9:48 that is the most relatable part of scythe and (IMO) worse than setting up or cleaning up the game 😂😂😂 I actually laughed when he did that bit
I really love the austria-hungaran ww1 mech sort of aesthetic. If scythe focused more on that and added some more detail to the miniatures I'd buy this without hesitation
I just discovered this channel and you guys make excellent reviews :)
I should probably open my copy and play this now.
hot mayonnaise from a cracked jar has to be the most disgusting metaphor ever
9:08 "A lot of gravity in Canada today." 😝
It's refreshing to see a different opinion on a game that has become so revered so quickly. I've yet to play it, and those I know that have played it tell me that I must...which makes me leery...kind of like Wesley Crusher in the that Star Trek episode where everyone in the crew mindlessly played that game where you put disks in tunnels.
It's a great game. You won't be disappointed.
Have you played Terra Mystica or Through the Ages? Do you like them? If you do, you will probably find Scythe extremely shallow, because, frankly, it is.
Scythe is a great game for boardgame players who have absolutely no idea what they are doing. Not because it is hard to find a dominant strategy, or because the game is complex. The simple reason is that if played correctly, Scythe is a massive snooze-fest. If, however, each player plays suboptimally, it can be a lot of fun.
My first playthrough was a blast-everyone was new, so the game went on for longer, with several tense moments. By game 4, when everybody fully understood the rules and were acquainted with the game enough for it to turn into this "i know what im doing and now simply going through the motions" type of deal.
Fighting is suboptimal, since while you are doing a move to attack one player, somebody else is producing, adding cogs to their engine. It is also rather boring and despite the lack of dice, can still be pretty random. Area control is equally boring, since, again, it is suboptimal in the majority of cases.
If you are a casual gamer, absolutely go for it. When played like a regular "monopoly", it can be fun. If, however, you want to think on each turn, really get your head into the game, look at what other players are doing and have meaningful interactions-there are better options.
It is not a game for "power gamers". It is not a game for experienced players. It is a boardgame equivalent of call of duty: it sells well, involves little to no brain activity, only slightly rewards skill and can be loads of fun, if not taken seriously. It doesn't do Euro well, it doesn't do ameritrash well. It is this weird thing in-between for people on the edge.
Terra Mystica is a better Euro. It is probably the best euro to this day. It really rewards deep thinking and understanding of the game.
Through the Ages is a better grand strategy or "4x". It doesn't have area control or any kind of board, but it still vastly superior in terms of player interactions and resource management.
Kemet is a better "fighting game". The setting is arguably less interesting and the art isn't as amazing, but the core gameplay is years ahead.
Seriously, don't get Scythe if you are looking for a good game. Burned kickstarter backers are just trying to justify their purchase)
@Termirlan Tattybekov Sounds like a pretentious answer, but I can see the validity in it.
With that said, why do all these games that boardgame aficionados praise have such subpar visuals... seriously. I typically find it difficult to enjoy games with subpar visuals (surprisingly, Catan does not fall in this category for me).
I don't play enough boardgames to seriously critique how brain-fueled or 'brainless' Scythe is, but they at least made everything very visually appealing.
Having played it a few times (I do not own it, so I am not biased toward or against), I don't believe it to be as poor as you make it out to be, but I do understand if it doesn't meet your level of depth--I can see that.
Have to say, this makes me want to play it.
Seems like the feeling of playing the game perfectly captures the intended feeling.
Him just repeatedly saying “and lots” is exactly why I love Catan so much.
It’s so simple, I think it’s kinda elegant.
I tried to visit the official website for Scythe, only to get hit with a thousand popups. Looks like the site has been compromised.
EDIT: Site fixed
Ghede it's all fine for me.
Looks like it was fixed, it's not happening for me anymore either.
Nice to know that I shouldn't trust Shut Up and Sit Down! :) I love Scythe. I have played with many people and it is always a good time. The strategy worked into the simple turns and action-choices is brilliant. I LOVE that it presents itself as a heavy combat/mech driven game and then ends up being more sophisticated and elegant than combat-driven.
You can trust SUSD to give their own fair opinion of the game they are reviewing. I agree here but disagree elsewhere. Combat driven games can be elegant. This game literally has combat and it is not elegant, so why include it in what I believe is a shallow, messy design? The mechs could be buses, but that wouldn't make them millions would it?
Awesome review! This describes my feelings towards Scythe so well, everyone acts like it is amazing but I just think it is okay. You guys should do a video review of Eclipse, there are great expansions for it that make it a really awesome game.
I've never seen a review of SUSD where they reviewed Eclipse. I'd be very interested in their thoughts. Could you share a source of their Eclipse review?
There was a written review but I've never seen a video, if so prove me wrong and provide a link lol