Scythe - Shut Up & Sit Down Review
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- Опубликовано: 24 фев 2017
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First published on 25th Feb, 2017. 
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going back to this video it's amazing that everything Paul says about Kickstarter board games is true but it's gotten worse to the point where Scythe looks positively svelte by comparison
What kickstarters do you find worse?
@@arthursimsa9005 I can't speak for the above, but I would say Weather Machines fits into this perfectly. I haven't played it yet (friend backed it), but just looking at it...dear lord there is a lot of 'things' and 'stuff'...and....more stuff.
@@jeremycarlson1189 You must not be familiar with Vital Lacerda games then?
I think the original commenter was talking about something like Nemesis, The Great Wall or all of the other minis games where you can get the core game but then there are like 20 different addons, and by the time you add them all you are $600 in and have like 4 boxes coming and 500 different minis for a single game...when all you realistically need is the core game. I have NEVER met someone who went all in on a pledge and played everything that came with that tier. They usually just say they are going to sell it if they don't like it or use the expansions, but then forget how hard it is to sell the kickstarter games that turn out to not be so good.
Weather Machine is actually the exact opposite of what Paul and the original commenter are talking about. You are talking about wooden components and a Lacerda game. Vital Lacerda is known for designing some of, (if not the most complex worker placement board games that exist) and he includes every single thing in one beautiful box because everything is necessary to the game. You are conflating complexity with bloat. He doesn't add plastic simply to increase the price of the game, he doesn't do addons and the only pledges available don't change what you get, just what language the game is in. He also very extensively explains his games on the funding page, which is why it shows so much stuff....but all that stuff is part of a core game.
If you want a great example of what Paul or OP were talking about check out ISS Vanguard on Gamefound.....or pretty much any Awaken Realms game. That game is already A LOT and then there are like 5 different add on and about a dozen or so other options that add absolutely nothing to the game but aesthetic and a huge price tag. Basically they are talking about something similar to the Special Edition video games that give you a bunch of skins and maybe a cool toy from the game. Generally stuff designed to drive up the price, but has no bearing on gameplay whatsoever.
@@arthursimsa9005 All Awaken Realms games.
@@arthursimsa9005 oathsworn, burncycle or basically anything from chip theory games
The thing about Scythe in particular is that you CAN have an entire game without any combat whatsoever.
What this means is, that you can have a little gentleman's agreement that enables you to put your mechs into vulnerable positions. But then what happens when someone seems to be snowballing and/or someone is obviously losing is that they tend to break a little and "play YOLO" and ruin the winning player's position by attacking them.
Also, the end game is very interesting where you often have a bunch of very close people who are each trying to work out how they can eek out those last couple of points and end the game without their opposition ending the game first.
Our games tend to end up being quite tense towards the end, where it's not unheard of for the game ending turn to be
"I move my mech, dropping two workers on the way to gain an additional 2 hexes, then end the move in your hex, initiate combat, which I then win, sending your mech back to base and taking ownership of this hex and your two metal resources, which I now use to deploy my last mech, giving me an achievement point for winning a battle and an achievement point for deploying all my mechs, and even though my popularity went down, those 3 extra hexes mean that I win by 2 points.... oh wait, you've got 3 more coins than me..."
That's why Saxony was created
Agreed. But it's also true that the 19 turns before that are "kind of plodding".
....and then the endgame as well.
I think my friend has the best description of Scythe ever, "It's a game for people who say they like complex games, but don't want to actually invest the time into learning a complex game." It's pretty telling that the one person in our group that loves it (we'll call him Kythe) is also the one that owns it, and started playing board games the year it was released. Back then Kythe used to tell us that he wished all games would venture into territory as complex as Scythe....lmao. OK
I have noticed that most of the people that love Scythe were getting into board games right around 2016-2017. I don't mind playing it....I just have to bite my tongue every time Kythe tries to tell me that the slow, plodding and boring af nature of the game just means it's "thinky" and open for strategy. We were supposed to all play On Mars one night, but he showed up and hadn't watched any of the rules videos because he didn't think it was worth it to spend that long trying to learn a game and that from what he could tell the game was only complex for the sake of being complex. It's weird....it's almost like he doesn't actually like complex games, lol.
Schyte could really improve with the simple trick of hiding the coins of each player. You just can't math it out now, the end game is as obscure as the designer intended for it to be. We play to have fun, not to win at the expenses of everyone else's fun.
Steampunk mechs without combat.
"Lot of gravity in Canada today..." ROFL
I just got this and I would bump the damn things and cubes went everywhere but I love this game
I think it's best described as a Cold War Game--where there is adversarial moments, but it's more of you looking at them warily as they do the same. While you have your giant robots in adjacent fields--waiting, watching, sometimes farming :)
Agreed! A lot of the tension is based on who will "crack" first. There's a lot at stake in Scythe when you go to war--popularity, power, and (as Paul mentions in the video) perhaps most importantly, positioning. Ah, the 3 tenets of Steampunk Agrarian Warfare.
Or to look at it in a different way - nothing actually happens, it just threatens to.
"waiting, watching, sometimes farming" lololol I like that :D
As in real life there is a heavy cost to fight and it's best to be avoided.
Sitting as Russia and setting up an Iron Curtain and satellite States is a very good strategy
I always get lost when I watch other channels try to explain a game because they get so bogged down into the technicalities of it or they are just plain annoying. But you guys really get at the core of what the game is really supposed to be all about which really helps me decide if I want the game or not.
Quinns’ irrationally angry tone as Paul fails to cross water makes me chuckle over and over.
Squirrel at second 24! 🙌
That's his animal companion in Scythe that reflects his character.
Best squirrel in a boardgame podcast of 2017.
SU&SD spare no efforts in production
I hope no squirrels were harmed during making the video.
Corban Castro up in yo tree beyatch
SQUIRREL
What I love about this game is that there is constant tension and fear of a battle, and you might spend many of your turns building up your military power, and then no battle happens in the whole game. It feels like a constant cold war and I love it.
3 years after this review, and man I still love this game. There was something about how daunting and confusing it seemed the first time you played that transformed into great satisfaction after finishing the first play through. Still find great enjoyment in setting up the perfect sequence of turns to accomplish multiple bottom row actions in a row!
I just got this game and I’m geeking out uncontrollably. I’m losing sleep cause I just wanna play solo before the next match against friends. The board looks beautiful and for someone who’s only board game was monopoly and chess(which I’ve lost) this is an out of the world experience! I’m already thinking of getting a new board monthly to start.
Something else that makes board games great is the bonding and unrivalled experience of having a games night rather than playing video games even over LAN. Then on top of that I get taken aback by the quality of the art pieces and lore that goes into the making. Stuff like expansion packs and table top purchases are so cool to me. I really need friends that will teach me dungeons and dragons now ....
I'm here from the future, and wanted to ask how your board game hobby has continued?
My gaming group is OBSESSED with this game. In my case, I appreciated the theme and mechanics, but it left me a big feeling of emptiness. I will play it again, but prefer other games.
Artwork maybe the best ever but game isnt perfect...its a euro masked as a war game with an end game condition which puzzles me...
What game do you prefer?
@@petarmajstor2370 in a euro, engine building style I prefer Underwater Cities. As a war game I prefer Inis. I know these games don't really compare. Oh, and as a Stonemaier game I prefer Viticulture.
@@dave0754 that inis game looks fun
@@petarmajstor2370 Inis is amzing, and so simple.
It's 2022 and I still ❤️ Scythe. It's the boardgame that got me into modern boardgames. It will always have a special place in my heart.
I love Paul Dean and I love Scythe. I want more of both. This review doesn’t upset me, though I disagree with it.
I love SU&SD reviews, which are almost always spot on, but I almost completely disagree with this one. I can see how he feels it’s a slower game, but in all the times my friends and I have played this game I have never felt that way. I do feel as though it is incredibly mentally stimulating because of how you need to be able to manage your actions effectively and think ahead. This is, without a doubt, the best game that I own in my collection.
Got this game last month and my wife and I cant stop playing. Cant say enough great things about it. The more we play the more strategy reveals itself.
We very much differ in tastes. I'm just really really happy i didn't see your review first or I may have missed this one.
The problem with Shut Up & Sit Down is that many of their reviews seem oblivious to general audience's opinions, which is incredibly important to consider. If a reviewer dislikes a game, yet the general consensus is that the game is great, then it's important for the reviewer to realize that most of his audience will likely enjoy the game. A responsible reviewer will then try to figure out why people love the game and why others may be put off of it. This kind of awareness is, unfortunately, missing from a lot of the reviews on this channel. Instead, we get an incredibly biased opinion.
I'm glad you and your wife bought the game and enjoyed it. I'm thinking of buying the game myself once I get some extra spending money. I'm glad I did some research on this game because I too would avoid it if this were the only video I watched about it.
I agree with NoNameC68. SUSD, the more I watch their reviews of various games, seems to have a love for playing “devil’s advocate”, I guess is one way to put it. Almost like they feel they have to have a view on both sides of the fence. Scythe is on so many Top 10 lists, including on boardgamegeek.com (currently #8) that I just don’t know how they come to these conclusions in this video. Same with the Root review.... I enjoy the production quality of the SUSD videos, but sometimes it feels like they’re just trying to provide a balance of pros and cons, even if they have to make some stretches to get there. One minute its all sunshine and roses and you think they actually like the game, then the next its doom and gloom and you wonder how seemingly minor things that most people overlook because the amazing parts are worth it suddenly became the focus that turns the reviewer sour on the game.
Scythe is an amazing game and I don’t feel that it’s ‘plodding along’ at all. I haven’t seen a snowball effect yet for any one faction/economy board combo, either. It seems well enough balanced to me, and crowdsourced popularity on BGG has it high enough that I take this review with a grain of salt.
@@NoNameC68 That is false. Reviewrs job is to present their opinions and explain why they came to such conclusions. You can decide then whether you agree or not, or whether you agree that what a reviewer seen as negative is in your opinion bad or not.
@@andrewuk2781 I mean, to a point.
I used to find the Legend of Zelda series boring and bad. But then I realised the games had universal acclaim and I tried to understand why and maybe tap into that feeling that excited other people so much.
Personally, I find it much more rewarding because if that works you have just found a new game you suddenly like. So a little self awareness isn't a bad thing.
Completely beholding your opinion to the masses is though. Everything in moderation.
@@niallreid7664 Yeah. My point is that the review has to oresent his opinion based on his experience. Then you as a consumer use different opinions and your knowledge of the product and the company to make a decision. Because it may work the other way around: I know many people criticise Forbidden Siren on ps2 but for me the game is good exactly because of the things people find annoying in it. So I can see why many reviewers had issues with it, I just don't see it as a negative.
To put my bias out on the table I Kickstarted Scythe and I love it. I own Inis(h), Rex, Terra Mystica, and Archipelago and will generally play Scythe over any of them unless I'm hankering for a specific experience that those games provide. For example if I want to play something more combat focused I'd throw down Inis, or better yet Kemet.
The issue I see with new players and Scythe is one of cognitive dissonance. People see plastic mechs and tigers and assume it's a combat game. I've taught the game several times to groups of new players and specifically tell them that you generally won't win by fighting all the time and the threat of a fight is often more important than the actual fight. In the end they still see mechs and I generally spend the game obliterating them. At the end I hear one of two responses. One is that I was right it wasn't about fighting and they understand the game now. The second is that it doesn't feel like a good area control / combat game. The latter folks are still running under the assumption that giant mechs = constant fighting. I would often get the same response when I first setup Terra Mystica until the players saw all of the wood pieces. They equate wooden cubes to Euro style games and cognitive dissonance is removed.
I'm honestly glad that the combat system in Scythe is simple to the point of boring because the game isn't about combat. Mechanics that incentivize combat would throw off the flow, if not the balance, of the game. At the end of the day Scythe about engine building. And guess what? It has great engine building mechanics. I don't fault Inis for it's crappy stock market mechanics because it's not a stock market game.
At the end of the day Scythe is by no means a perfect game. It is a fantastic engine building game and one of the best implementations of player interaction in any Euro style game I've ever seen. Scythe is not a good implementation of a 4x / dudes on a map game. Just like TI3 is a poor implementation of a filler, KDM is a poor implementation of a kids game, and Mechs vs Minions is a poor implementation of a MMOBA style board game.
Cognitive dissonance. Cool comment, didn't want to sound like a jerk, but this was super well written with this one blaring mistake :p Take care.
Haha... That's what I get for writing an essay on my cell phone at work. Thanks for being my editor!
Very good argumentation, I must say.
"Scythe is not a good implementation of a 4x / dudes on a map game" And yet that's litterally how the game is described in the manual.
"one of the best implementations of player interaction in any Euro style game" : that maybe it is.
And it's color-blind friendly!!! That caught my attention!
Is it? That's cool!
I like the mechanism with upgrading your boards - the issue for me is finding others that want to play Scythe as it's quite long and takes a bit to get to know the rules.
I just discovered this channel and you guys make excellent reviews :)
You know what I love about this review (apart from the great British humour it brings)? The fact that it spawned so many views and comments, of all kinds. I think the review does a good job of describing the general style and pace, and some of the comments qualify them well (such as the increasing tension and pace towards the end of the game). So all in all, a good balanced opinion that will either put you off or suck you in depending on whether YOU are likely to like it based on your preferences. Good stuff...what reviews are for really.
Top 2 strategies that will boost your Scythe skills: 1. Try to plan your turns to always take both actions if possible. Each turn in which you only take one action hurts you exponentially. 2. Enlist, enlist, enlist. The accumulating value of enlisting early, before anything else, will put you out ahead of everyone else.
Happy building!
It's probably not a big selling point for most people, but Scythe has a fantastic solo mode. I'm on the same page as Paul, yet Scythe has stayed in my collection, despite just being an OK game, because the solo mode is so great.
That's because the solo mode was not made by Stegmeier, but by someone else. He probably played the game before being released, got bored, and decidet to do something to make it fun.
Fighting against teleporting and automatically producing mechs and workers is not “fun” but very challenging and rewarding, even if you cheated a little bit.
I got to play Scythe a few weeks ago. I found it a lot more enjoyable than expected, but I've been identified as a "Builder" player type. So I enjoyed expanding, and upgrading and building, and I didn't really care that combat wasn't a focus.
I played this recently with friends. The only hassle was learning the system, but it was really simple and fast after the table was in the groove.
What I like about your reviews is that you care about my wallet more than I do.
I've got Terra Mystica (though admittedly not played Inishhh nor Archipelago nor Rex), and I've got to say: Scythe DOES get my blood boiling to a froth more than TM. Perhaps I've just had very close games, but Scythe is much more nailbitingly tense than TM. I think TM is on par intellectually with Scythe (and much more streamlined), but just that threat of combat and more explicitly competing objectives make me want to play Scythe "just one more".
Also, 115 minutes is totally doable. Our very first game with 3 grizzled gamers only lasted around 90 minutes, not including setup.
Mark Browning I agree, Scythe is just a more appealing theme for me. TM is good, but for me Scythe is great!
Scythe is one of my favorite games so far.. i realy love it and i am willing to play it any time.. a very intense game from my experience. BUT BUT....it is NOT a fighting game.. 95% of our games ended with each player having 1 or 2 attacks maximum. Just to get the reward stars.. In some rare cases a player may attack to take some recourses... Its more of a euro style game and the background story of the game, supports it.
Have you ever heard the saying "You may have won the battle, but you haven't won the war"
WWI was full of devastating losses for the Entente.
Wins can be defined as bleeding a country of resources like the Russians did to Germany on the Eastern front in WWI. Wins can be defined as a negotiation. Wins can be defined as merely surviving against tough odds.
The biggest thing you're missing is Scythe isn't a wargame. Stop trying to make it one. Battles are one avenue to secure a victory.
My mind is still blown about the combined reference to Glengary Glen Ross and Poirot at 10:48. Well played.
Normally, I love and usually agree with SUSD. And just to put it out there, I did back this game. But I feel like these guys were biased against the game before they started the review. Many of the mechanisms of scythe are present in multiple of the other games that they've recommended, and the only difference here to me seemed like "this game is mega popular, so let's take the opposite opinion". I agree, the game can be plodding. and player interaction does need a framework. But it's still a great game :) just my two cents, still love you guys :)
Did you watch the video? They basically pointed out exactly what you said except they said "it's a good game, play it if it interests you and you'll enjoy it, but there's better games out there with the same mechanics". So I don't really think they went all "opposite opinion" day on you.
Well, they said there are games that have better mechanics than individual mechanics in Scythe. And I'd agree. But in terms of a balance of a little bit of everything, I don't know of anything better, personally. It's kind of like a "greatest hits" of game mechanics across both Euro and Ameritrash games.
And yet ultimately underwhelming at least to me.
I haven't watched the video yet, but based on what they said in a recent podcast episode, I was expecting a negative-ish review. I agree that it seems like they had already formed a general opinion before going into this, based on it being a Kickstarter, hype, popularity, etc. If they didn't end up liking it, it's fine. I still love it, and them!
I don't think there's anything in this game that I'd consider Ameritrash. It's a straight Euro.
I can't believe that, after six years, nobody even mentioned the squirrel in the upper left corner at 00:25
0:30 Hey. Your wood gatherer frightened a squirrel
Paul I def respect your opinion on this game. I personally love this game! Thank you for taking the time to review it. :D
Haha omg I just realized the joke in the intro from the river cross ability that you can only cross rivers into a special territory but can't necessarily cross back 🤣 and wood of course a resource in the game
Just want to say, this is probably the most civil comments sections I've seen of a RUclips video being less than glowing in it's review of something that's hugely popular. SUSD fans are the best :D
Shut the fuck up
Love your reviews. I've been catching up on the back catalog. Great stuff!
I'm curious if you two have a set group that you play these games with or do you just invite random friends over to play through them?
Knowing nothing about this game before watching this review, I feel... a bit let down by Paul's description of it. Something I've always loved about SUSD is their ability to paint the broad strokes of a game's ideas/themes/mechanics, then get into the details and piece it apart. I'm at the 20:00 mark here and I'm not even certain what the goal of the game is. Without context of what ends we're trying to reach, all the talk of movement and battle and upgrades all just seems inconsequential. Feeling like some more editing is needed here.
To be true probably the weakest part of the game is why we are doing what we doing. Basically it is to be the richest because being rich and developed is good.
The goal at the end of the game is to have the most victory points. And because so many things feed into that number (money, goods, land, objectives completed, etc), it's REALLY hard to nail down exactly WHAT victory points are a stand-in for. It's not wealth or power or control or anything like that. It's just...stuff. Your goal in Scythe is to have more stuff than anyone else. What stuff? ANY stuff. It all counts, just have more of everything and you'll win.
And I think that's yet another real let down of this game. The game abruptly ends when someone completes their 6th objective. It's VERY possible to complete two or three objectives in a single turn, I've even seen someone complete 4 in one turn. So the game can be over in the blink of an eye, even when it seemed like it was going to go on for a while. And there are no "last round" or "finish the round" mechanics. You don't even get to finish your turn if you're in the middle of it when you place your 6th star (aka complete your 6th objective).
That 6th star goes down, the game immediately stops, everyone tallies points and your done. It's extremely anticlimactic most of the time. So I guess what I mean to say is that I'm not surprised the broad strokes weren't painted in this review...cause they're just not really well painted in the game itself.
That's because it's a point salad game. You do stuff and get points for it. In it's defense, it's a point salad game where you choose your path early on, rather than just doing a bit of this and bit of that, but it still lacks that unified focus.
Totally. And, to the game's credit, it's STILL fun...most of the time. It's just not the bestest game ever in the history of time ever. It's got some big flaws and it's always shocking to me how some people just defend it regardless.
The first person to get 6 objective tokens does NOT win the game. The tokens are each worth victory points, but the person who lays down the 6th one (and ends the game) is not automatically the winner. They just have more objective tokens and, therefore, more victory points from objective tokens. Money, occupying land, where you placed your buildings, left over resources, and some other things are also worth victory points. So yeah, the person who gets the 6 "video-game-like achievements" is not the winner necessarily.
"Always be certain
-Alec Baldwin
-Paul"
-Michael Scott
I've just watched this again for the first time in years and only just noticed the squirrel running up the tree in the opening sequence. 😂
Scythe is one of the best looking games out there. Even though we have only played it once, we do recommend it. We also purchased the metal coins for the game. The coins are intricate in their design and beautiful to hold. A fantastic addition to the game and well worth buying. I’ll agree with Paul that the game builds slowly but for us this adds to its appeal.
Subscribed! Your honest reviews are very appreciated.
The first skit is now way funnier after playing the game.
Doesn't Kingdom Death: Monster have more, & not less though?
I backed Scythe on Kickstarter based purely on the fact that I like Stonemaier Games' games.
Paul's concerns about combat are the same things I was worried about, although they are also the opposite. I'm not interested in battling, confrontation, and action, so I was pleasantly surprised to discover the way combat is implemented in this game -- as something that you really have to carefully consider. As a not particularly aggressive boardgamer I really dreaded the possibility of having to flatten my opponents with an army of mechs -- the sort of threat of negative consequences of combat, giving the game a sort of arms race, cold war feel, was just what I wanted from a game with mechs. The mechs were about theme for me, not about the fighting.
Great review! I love Scythe and I agree it is 100% a plodding game, but I enjoy that. You have to plan very small milestones (like building a single building) and then make that happen over 4 or more turns. Once you've got more stuff on the board it becomes increasingly about efficiently weaving in progress to key objectives while working toward those goals. Spending the least amount of "wasted" actions is very important. Done right, you can edge up to a few objectives and score them all in one turn to end the game.
I don't feel like there's much to catch up if things go sideways other than praying your opponents misstep, but I've also never seen incredibly imbalanced games that Paul warns of, so they always feel close. It might be that there are so many metrics and progress seems so slow that it's hard to identify how far ahead or behind you really are.
I appreciate that combat is quick and doesn't involve dice. I don't mind that it isn't really exciting, because combat really isn't the point of the game. I've won games without even building a single mech.
This deserves a rereview
love the nature touch. Even the squirrel ;-)
Coming back to this video after having owned and played Scythe for years now, it's arguably my favorite game and while he may have some good points...it's still a great game. It is the go to option for us on a game night.
Solid review, very thorough. You pointed out that there are other games that do "this" or "that" better, like Rex, Terra Mystica, or Inis. However, for me at least, I just absolutely love that Scythe combined all those mechanics (albeit not as deep as those other games) into one box with a theme that is very appealing and with very high quality components. It's a game that can scratch multiple itches for my friends and I, easily making it one of my favourite games.
I must disagree with your assessment of it being unexciting tho. The game is an engine builder. It starts off slow, and picks up a lot. By the end game, once multiple players are close to placing their final star, it becomes very tense and turns become quick with lots of things happening.
Looking forward to the next review!
For me, Scythe is probably the greatest boardgame I ever played - at least when it comes to competitive games. The production quality is stunning, the mechanics are awesome and it's indeed very well balanced (except the factions from Invaders, which have a huge disadvantage compared to the core factions). I LOVE SCYTHE!
I love the art work in this game.
I obsess over it. A believeable (is that written correct?) form of steampunk. I have nothing with steampunk, but this.... i dunno... its like finding something of which i didnt knew i lost it.
1 problem.
Not every table is big enough..... thats a unique experience for me haha
@@juliusraben3526 It's dieselpunk.
"Like hot mayonnaise from a cracked jar."
Is this why Matt does the cooking?
Love you guys. Cheers from Brazil! Keep it up!
Having played this game a few times, I can say this is my favourite board game so far. The Wind Gambit expansion is a must though, with some really good tweaks to how the game ends (less abrupt), and also has got optional airships! Kewl!
But I really enjoyed Terra Mystica too, which was one of my favourite games until I tried this.
*edit*
The odd thing about it is that it was fun the first few times, but it didn't blow me away. It felt like it was more or less solvable (get lots of popularity and you win). But after like the 10th game, it was at least 10 times as fun as the first game. It just grows and grows. The main drawback is that it does have balance issues which crop up after many plays, though BGG gives quite a few suggestions for fixes.
I'm on board with you, Paul. The only substantive addition I can make to your criticism is that I worry the game is pretty solvable. While there are differing combinations of boards, and encounters can change the resources available to you in the early game, overall I feel quite confident that any given set up has a most efficient path through the development process. I don't like games where the best way to succeed is to study the action sequencing outside the game to memorize the most effective play pattern. And the interaction comes too late to disrupt early-game sequencing.
This
Most relevant comment in the entire comment section as far as actual gameplay is concerned.
I appreciated Paul’s take the first time I saw it because, at the time, I’d played 2-3 games of Scythe and gotten hamstrung every time. However, being newish to modern board games, I assumed it was my inability to grok the game, not the game itself.
I’ve since played Scythe with other players - and finally managed to win against humans, albeit new players - and bought the game to play solo, and I’ve come around for a bunch of reasons.
The look of it is spectacular, no question. Hard to say that’s not a selling point for me.
But as a newish boardgamer, playing this game solo (with the app keeping track for the AI - a must!) has taught me more how to strategize a point salad game, to look at the player mat and factions and maximize what’s there. I’m glad to have this in my collection now. (Not interested in Inis, Terra Mystica, Archipelago, or the other games Paul mentioned.)
I would say Scythe is not going to scratch that itch for players who want more/constant interaction, fighting, and conquering. This is not that kind of game.
Inis is great, though. Better, arguably.
Do you plan to upload any of your very early episodes from season one?
I've watched this entire video, and I still have absolutely no idea about what happens in this game or how it is played.
(That's not a criticism of the video, btw)
I've played Scythe and I still don't have any idea what happens in it. I got the rules, but the game itself is monumentally uninteresting.
With Scythe, that can happen. I played it twice, and at the end of the game I was like "Ok, I moved some mechs on the map, I uncovered some tokens, I unloked some powers... So, what is this game about?". You had to watch just a video of 23 minutes, say "thank you".
InnerPartisan first day me and my brother spent 3 hrs learning and setting up the board and another 3-4 hrs to finish a match. Time flew and it was great!
I personally love this game! After one or two games I really understood it. I found myself planning out strategies 5 turns in advance all while managing the politics of the game so that my resources would not be jeopardized. Once you play it a couple times it all clicks in.
Rodney's How to Play video for Scythe is 33 minutes long. In my experience, it can take an hour to teach to someone who's totally unfamiliar with it. This is a major problem with the game. There are too many things.
I think all of Paul's criticisms are valid and I agree with most of them, but the review just seems to be permeated in this weird... bias? Like in the Caverna review he was ecstatic over all tge bits and baubles and choices jusr because they were there, ignoring what all of that meant for the game. In this video he seems to be turned off by the amount of stuff or at least seems to be sarcastically referencing how ridiculous it is.
Of course his rabidness in the Caverna video was possible more the the sketch and not his actual views, it just seemed strange. From what I know about Paul and sexy magic purple bowls, I thought the surplus of wooden bits and fun minis would make his loins froth.
You also have to consider that the Caverna and the Terra Mystica review were two and three years ago, respectively. People do change their opinions, after all.
In at least one podcast, I think Quinns and Paul both said that recently, they generally prefer focused, sharp games over ones with lots of stuff.
That's also a very fair point! Like I said, I don't think any of the actual meat and potatoes of his argument are wrong in any way, and his "too much stuff" criticism isn't even something I disagree with, it's just not what I expected from Paul!
I still love me some bibs and bobs though, I think I have problems. Time to go cuddle sexy magic purple bowls in my room!!
Yeah, when you review games as a hobby and can only get so many so often, you treasure what you can get. When it's your job and you've seen a dozen of something you thought was fun the first time, it can be much harder to overlook flaws. I would take this as a bigger indictment against things they've reviewed in the past than a point for Scythe.
He did kinda like Feast for Odin though and that game has alot more bits than Scythe
Watching this in 2019.... We miss you Paul!
Did paul leave?
Zack W I never got what happend to him :(
@@yb-king_crow4418 Yeah, he gave personal reasons. We aren't entirely sure why, but it seems to be a typical case of wanting to do your own thing.
@@niallreid7664 Also quite difficult to run a jointly hosted show from two sides of the Atlantic.
He's a Dick
Oh no! The infamous Canadian gravity-storm!
Scythe is an engine building and economic game. The problem is that people see mechs and think of combat. Yes the game can get boring if you just don’t care for the type of gameplay.
One of my favorite games. I actually played for the first time with the purple and green last night and don't feel that they were imbalanced at all, since those four little traps or four little flags that they got to lay still weren't as beneficial to them as the fact that my worker meeples could swim across rivers. And the other person could bounce to any unused faction home base. So their little "minus two hearts" trap felt very insignificant compared to the benefits that we had. Purple came in second place though because she used her other stuff wisely. That's what's fun about this game, there are so many ways to go at it!
Allison (The green group) are underrated. With the flags they can avoid looking threatening or intimidating but still score high on territories.
I like the idea of games like this, but get so overwhelmed when I try them. Can't wait for the Cones of Dunshire video ;)
What I like about these reviews is that they allow me to know in advance which games I may like, and which games I should stay away from. This particular game, despite of all the hype, I can clearly see is not for me. Thanks for the video!
I've played this game for over a year at the time of writing this, about 10+ games with different combinations of the same 5 total players. I have the first expansion for additional player variety.
As far as criticism goes, this isn't the most complicated game under the sun, and a lot of people equate that to being boring, which is fine. I won't ever try to minimize somebody's interest or lack thereof for a game, people just enjoy different types of things. My elevator pitch for this game has always been "Settlers of Catan, but fun" which is an exaggerated dig at Catan having played it so many times and it being a sort of gold standard for entry-level board games. It plays similar to me, minus the trading aspect which is probably the most interesting part of Catan. I think Scythe more than makes up for not having a trading mechanic with its clever moving mechanics and upgrading systems, adding a layer of complexity to a resource management game.
The end game scoring system is hard to explain to people who haven't played, and I think that's a bummer for new players if they are playing with a group that already understand this. This is the most consistent issue I see people have, but once you play a game and see it in action and see specifically why you won/lost a game, it becomes much more interesting and opens you up to various strategies you hadn't thought of. This couples with the random selection of player/production boards makes each game new and interesting.
However, I think the magic of Scythe hides in the way it tells you how to play the game without having to pour over the rulebook between every turn. Of course there are some niche things you'll look up occasionally, but the double board system is magical. This game is legitimately beautiful to look at, and I think that's a large part of its appeal, but its systems are very straight forward in its cost/gain mechanics: how they are laid in front of you in the form of tactile upgrade blocks, buying workers straight off your board to reveal new costs, recruiting to gain immediate rewards and open up triggers for collecting additional ones, revealing mech powers, etc. I subscribe to the player base of people that like shiny things. I didn't kickstart this game, but to be honest I probably would have if I had known about it. I bought the metal coins after playing this game two times. I was gifted the Meeple resource tokens (which are amazing and I recommend). I bought the board expansion so I can look at everything in extra detail. I bought the second expansion despite never having enough players for a full 7 player game just to look at the new mechs and token and characters. It is such a great 'collector' game and it looks amazing sprawled across my newly refinished dining room table.
But I also think it's fun. And I think a lot of other people will think it's fun. Do I think it's currently 7th BoardGameGeek overall rating is due largely to its insane production quality? Yes. But do I think that's a bad thing? Absolutely not.
Scythe is a GREAT game. i do have one question: are the mats picked randomly or does the # on your player mat determine who picks their faction mat?
I know it has been one year, but the proper way to play is to pick all factions and mats at random, and then do an auction where players bid an end game penalty on the faction they desire. The highest bidder on a give faction has his choice locked until someone outbid them, keep going until everyone has a faction. It will look something like Rusviet -25, Polonia -7, Saxony -10, Albion 0. The group itself determines the value of each faction, creating a perfect balance for the meta of the group regardless of the absolute balance of the factions. This is how Scythe tournaments are run. Also Crimea-Patriotic and Rusviet-Industrial pairings are officially banned.
I have played Terra Mystica. I have played Archipelago. I have played Rex. I have played Inis. I will play Scythe over any of them. Terra Mystica is more unbalanced, as proved by the internet over the last few years. I stopped playing it because I played against someone who knew the "Snellman rankings" and just robbed all the fun out of it. I sold my copy. Archipelago is either a lot longer or far too short depending on the objectives you pick and the player count. Plus, building types as end-game triggers? Really? Rex is too long, and I'm told is only truly good at its full player count, and has too much conflict and randomness for my tastes. Inis is the closest to making your point to me, but I find it too back-and-forth and the card draw from both the green action deck and the red special deck too random.
Scythe is plodding, yes, but it accelerates like nobody's business. Yes, some encounter cards are better than others, but the game is in how you can turn the worse ones into your boons. Yes, you are spending a lot of time with your head down in your little engine board, but after you've expanded out just a little bit, all of a sudden you're sitting with EVERYONE on your doorstep. Is the factory worth going for for its three hexes of end-game control? Should you keep your nose down and just churn out resources like crazy and make your people really like you? What about your objectives? Are either of them worth it? Maybe! Maybe to all of the above!
It is not, however, a sandbox. What you must do is figure out, early on, which six achievements are your six, and go for them. Possibly adjust your plans when that early encounter sets you up in a way you absolutely did not expect. But it's just that - an adjustment. A tantalizing temptation of an adjustment that could actually be to your peril.
Some games are games of strategy in that you must untangle a web of nefarious mechanisms with a machete in order to discover your path through the dense undergrowth. Scythe is a game where the strategy is much less obtuse, and you and the other players must all finesse the hell out it as best you can because one little mistake could cost you the entire game. And hey, I've also noticed, that if you get into that situation where it all unravels, at least one person is pretty close to getting all their stars out and you'll be out of your misery in no time.
The best part of Scythe for me is the race. It is constant, from turn one, and the tension from the frustration of the slow starting pace is just right. In only builds, as I see the board start to tighten and I become jealous of everyone else's powers but my own, and I wonder if I'll ever be able to get where I want to go. With skilled Scythe players, it is very much a tense race, and the sequence of everything has to be just right. I've been one turn behind and lost a game, and then was left wondering which action I took was the wrong one. It's tough, but it's also so good. And feels good knowing I was that close. It could be a deficit in the faction/action mat combo. It could have been bad draws. But there are so many combinations coming out of the gate that it's pretty difficult to be 100% sure. Do we want it to be that sure, though?
The only big problem I've found is that the experience gap in this game is HUGE! If you've played a lot (and I have - over 40 plays) you've seen enough of the game that you will blow out new players. And no matter how many times you tell them "It will end way faster than you think it will" no one will ever believe you their first time out until after it's over. And if players try to "hunt the leader" and draw out the game? It doesn't really matter, because everything that involves will also propel those other players toward the finish themselves. The momentum is all forward. Scythe may be slow at points, yes, but what it absolutely never, ever does is stall.
It's interesting that you feel the game is unbalanced when the general consensus I've seen on BGG is that the game is balanced, if anything, to a fault. I'm not saying your experience wasn't valid - one of my friends too has recently claimed that his loss hinged on an encounter card not giving him what he needed - but it does seem to be more of an edge case.
I also recognize that people like different things from different games. For me, Scythe is a really good mild conflict-y game that doesn't make me panic too much and pits me in a battle of wits against my opponents to recognize our own path to victory and chase it down, hard and fast, before someone else beats us to it. It doesn't draw itself out, for a resource management Eurogame; it doesn't make you sit around for another six worker-placement rounds of five workers per player now that you've learned that apparently that combo of occupation cards or furnishing tiles your opponent has put together is surely the best and you will try do the same yourself next time if you get lucky enough to draw them. In Scythe, you either have enough time to do -something- to help your standing, or the game is going to be over in two or three rounds anyway. Those are the things I've found in Scythe that I like most. And you're free to not like them or not feel they're there. Shut Up & Sit Down does not recommend Scythe, and in the words of so many of your reviews, "That's fine."
Excellent retort to show the other side. I think that the mechanics of Scythe are beautiful, turns are quick and games do not feel like they drag on. I hope that anyone who watches this review also reads your reply.
Cool story bro...and I actually mean it. Your dictation of Scythe exemplifies everything I love about the game. Such a great, well rounded experience!
+Ronrocken Rex is best at full 6, the rest are perfectly fine with three and a little lackluster at two but serviceable, including Scythe, imo.
Couldn't agree more with you. Actually i feel the video puts too much reference to the "unbalanced" aspect, just because the encounter cards are not all giving to everyone at every time. But isn't this supposed to be the concept of a random ENCOUNTER card? If your style is of the more exploring one, then it s only natural that you are gonna get better encounter cards..but as a result you might be one or two buildings/upgrades less than other players..
Also, i think the struggle of the paces that the video points out, is only putting up to the atmosphere that this game is built on, it has more to do with the lore of the world of scythe and ti actually accomplishes just that. I ve played this game for sometime now and what i really like is the replayability and not only by the different combinations of factions/economies, but also by the fact that you can play it with almost every strategy you come up with and still get close to victory...
I agree that it's not for everyone but all in all i recommend this game because it really needs you to make a plan and use your brain in a beautifully illustrated and presented steampunk world...also me and my friends decided to play the encounter cards without knowing the results, which adds a great rp element to the faction you play and how you play it, and we found the game so much better , realistic and intense...
Still, the game is a bit boring and slow. I prefer Civilization The Board Game over this. They have similar concepts but Civ is less draging and your decisions feel more impactful. You can get Civ with both (excellent) expansions for half the price you pay for Scythe and I guarantee you get just as much if not more fun out of it.
I can understand where SU&SD is coming from for this review, but for me personally, this game scratches the itch that Twilight Imperium does, but in a fraction of the time. Yes, I know a lot of the mechanisms are different, but the basic feel of the game with relatively slow engine building and asymmetrical powers is the same.
Edit: Ironically, 4 years later, I still have more plays of TI than I do of Scythe.
I feel the same way. TI is my #1 game, but I keep debating on whether Scythe has actually taken that slot.
This is bang on my view as well, Scythe allows me the vibe of TI3 in half the time and for that alone, it is a great achievement. Not a game I'm going to play often, but always one that I will enjoy.
Couldn't agree more. My group took the Twilight Imperium plunge a while back, and now we can't help but use it as the stick by which all other games are measured. Obviously, nothing quite measures up, but when we want a deep, strategic game and don't have a full day to commit, Scythe hits closer to the mark than anything else we've tried.
Thanks for this. I have been wondering why it felt sort of familiar & was wondering if the new hyped up Scythe fans had not played more empire builder type games before. TI is a great example. Of course Scythe has Euro sensibilities like Terra Mystica and I prefer that. (I can do without conflicts & detente.)
I honestly couldn't disagree any more. Twilight Imperium is a game of negotiation, diplomacy, gunboat diplomacy, and inevitably war. You're bumping elbows with your neighbors from turn 2 on forward, sometimes even turn 1. I've had nigh-game deciding fights round 2, I've had games that devolved to 1 v All, I've had games that were nearly combat free.
Scythe just feels like... Scythe.
9:08 "A lot of gravity in Canada today." 😝
I should probably open my copy and play this now.
We need a movie based on that universe. A movie with explosions. _Some_ explosions.
Love your work, keep it up.
"Like hot mayonnaise from a cracked jar"
very fair and realistic analyse. I had the same feeling without being able to explain it. it is done. thank you, it was like a therapy lol.
Comment from mid 2022 - Love SUSD, miss you Paul
it's not a grind, it's an engine. the first 5 turns seem slow, the next 5 get faster, and so on and so on to the point the last 5 are at lightning speed
and as for "we don't always need more stuff" btw SU&SD gave a half recommendation Caverna and (oh God) a Feast for fucking Odin, which IMO both have twice as much. just seems hypocritical
I don't want 5 heavily scripted slow turns to start out before I enjoy a game.
Matt Brown I play it a lot online with a group of friends. the 6 of us can get through through the first 5 rounds in less than 5 minutes.
Building an engine over 2 and a half hours sounds like torture.
I don't feel like the first 5 turns are scripted. I've tended to debate the precise pathway I want to start building my engine on more than one case, dependent on the faction and player mat combination I get, as well as my secret objectives.
"we don't always need more stuff" means that sometimes they need
9:48 that is the most relatable part of scythe and (IMO) worse than setting up or cleaning up the game 😂😂😂 I actually laughed when he did that bit
Will you be reviewing Star Wars Destiny? I couldn't help but notice it on the shelf. >.>
Despite SUSD not recommending scythe I really enjoyed the reviewm Scythe is a new favourite in the house hold mostly as my partner and I enjoy a very slow paced game where we can sit down and make every decision count. The slow and methodical march seems to match the feel of a game set in which you are trying to kickstart an economy after a massive war so it feels at home. I have noticed that beimg just 1 popularity behind as the game ends can easily lose everything for you, and I dominated the voard but had just one less popukarity, tossing me into a lower earning category and causing me to receive 1 less coin on EVERYTHING and thereby losing by $1. I agree the game isn't for everyone but it's a pretty nice experience
A game where you can slyly avoid combat to achieve the final Victory Point objective and win like a champ. I even got the promo cards and the expansion and the board expansion.
hot mayonnaise from a cracked jar has to be the most disgusting metaphor ever
Paul actually made a fair review even disliking the game. I guess that's what you get for almost forcing them to do review of a game they didn't want to review. The criticism in this video has a very targeted audience: KS supporters that wanted a nice review of the game to validate their buy/pledge. I bought myself a copy of this game (yet to be released in Brazil) and played it once before knowing all the hype around it (so was immune) and I really liked the _experience_ of playing it.
Good point Adam, and this kind of meaningful review is what I (and I believe most of theirs audience) like about it (and also they are funny). But think that the main criticism in this review is towards the "KS way" of making games and how sometimes less is better than more stuff and not Scythe specifically. They also reviewed games with almost the same amount of content and I can't remember if they ever complained the amount of stuff in games like Terra Mystica..
They (or rather Quinns) did in the review for Caverna. "Maybe there is too much stuff to do"?
Although I agree with almost every single thing he said about this game (he was a bit too generous on some points, in my opinion), I will admit that I am very biased because the primary people I have attempted to play this game with are shite at simply having fun learning a game and being patient and kind with each other. This is definitely NOT a good game to test an already competitive relationship, or a good venue to sandwich your inexperienced friends into if they aren't already into this type of game. Long story short, certain others may have ruined my experience with Scythe for good, and I have no reason to break it out in the future. If I do attempt to play for some apocalyptic reason, I will go it solo. In the meantime, I find myself wandering out of conversations that involve this game or how good it is. It's not that I don't recognize how well put together it is- I. Just. Don't. Like. It. :(
I really love the austria-hungaran ww1 mech sort of aesthetic. If scythe focused more on that and added some more detail to the miniatures I'd buy this without hesitation
I played this game and I only fought once and won. It was fantastic I was strategically collecting and moving to as many empty spaces as possible while collecting popularity to make sure my points were higher, and it was so close so tenuously close riveting. We played for 4 hours but it only felt like 1 and a half hours.
I always wanted to hear SU&SD opinion on rise of fenris, it really changed this game for me
God this game is so good. Even better with the expansions. One bottom action can be the difference between victory and defeat...its great...👍👍
Excellent review as usual gentlemen! This review in particular confirms my initial impressions of Scythe. The game looks intriguing but I'm concerned with the so called slow pace. I don't mind slow pace in a single player game but I'm not sure if my friends would be willing to or have the patience to play this game with me.
The first video where I disagree with the recommendation of SU & SD. Scythe to me is more enjoyable than Terra Mystic and certainly more than Inis. For me it is the threat of combat and the managing of resources that make the game so enjoyable.
Lol your reviews are always the best
Bought this as my first board game, spent the weekend on it with 3 other friends (also their first board game) and after the first few hiccups (took us 2 - 3 hours to start out first game lol) we had an absolute blast, there's just so much to do, so many ways to build your way to victory, already scheduled another session for this weekend, we are stoked
The Wind Gambit expansion should speed the beginning up.
"plodding out to control resources is a big deal" Paul Susd, 2017
What games did he recommend? I can't figure out what the names are for those games.
No squirrels were harmed in the making of this video
When I first started watching this I went in with the thought, "Oh, I wonder how much SU&SD like Scythe", then I heard the review and was surprised to hear you didn't like it. I haven't played it myself mind you. but every other review I've heard, both online and from close friends, tell me the game is amazing, a must play.... you guys just threw a wrench in my expectations.
They don't necessarily agree with everyone on everything. See also: Betrayal at the House on the Hill, which is massively popular, but Quinns feels like we're obliging 30 minutes of wasted time for the good part.
I'm new to the channel and decided after several entertaining reviews to watch a review of a game that I own - for context as to accuracy of opinions, if I could manage. I'm glad I did, because this is... Such a bunk review. Dude clearly wants to play a video game instead... Fantastic game. Gorgeous art style. So much replayability. Game pace is reasonable when you understand the relevant mechanics - and the game is totally able to be played alongside good, off-topic conversation, thanks to the incredibly intuitive design.
I venture that he didn't understand the game mechanics sufficiently to disagree with the suggested game duration and I thought it humourous that there seemed to be as many minutes criticising the amount of components in the box as there were recommendations of games that appeared to have heaps of components in the box.
I get that some of my disagreements are related to preference, but a lot of what was presented here was objectively incorrect, such as the omission of how mobile you are in the late game and the farcical fumbling with pieces.
Dude even whinged about making the review! Poor fellow...
Grain of salt requirement duly noted; however, I'll note this is the first time I've seen this presenter, so...
His name is Paul Dean, and he found the channel with Quinns in 2011 but left the team in 2018, so there's not much of his video posted on youtube(SU&SD used to post their videos on Vimeo). Too bad you had a bad first impression with him. This review is arguably the most controversial review SU&SD ever done. You'll get to like him, though. I'm under impression that Paul is actually the most eurogame-loving guy of the team, and definitely not a guy who just wants to play a video game.
I whole-heartedly recommend that you watch his reviews of Kingdom Death, Battlelore, and Azul, which are both brilliant and entertaining as hell.
And yes, every review by SU&SD should be taken with pinch of salt, since your thoughts on the game are the most important thing for you, not reviwers'.
can you do one for Stratego?
I've finally got to play Scythe and, after several plays all with different factions, I'll never play Terra Mystica ever again. For me, it's a more focused and specific game when you can do exactly what you want on every turn instead of just sitting there like a moron because you messed your maths a bit and have one terrible turn while everyone else just keep doing cool stuff.
And why is the number of bits a problem now? Freakin' Feast for freakin' Odin looks like several puzzles and boardgames smashed together by a madman, yet somehow this was a problem. It never felt like it's overwhelming for me or my group, we played with 5 and 6 players and never played a game longer than those 150 minutes.
And yes, I like how it looks on the table, sue me :)
And that's my problem with it: you can do exactly what you want. It doesn't matter what the others do most of the time. Why would I play that as a multiplayer game then? As you mentioned Terra Mystica, I'll just list the ways you compete in that one:
- Picking your faction at the start of the game matters, so does initial placement.
- Power actions are once per turn, so you have to time them well.
- Where you build matters as it can cut others from easy to transform tiles and it impacts town formation and end game scoring.
- How high you are on the cults also matters and you can block others from getting higher
- When you pass matters because it sets the play order for next round and because you compete for bonus cards.
Scythe has map competition, but no common action pool, no common objectives to compete for, you get your faction randomly, etc. I hoped one of the expansions would solve these problems, but it doesn't look like it. Even watched the Fenris spoiler review, still meh.
Actually there is/are common objectives. There is always one drawn at random per game. Which usually involves building next to certain types of territories. So territory\tunnel control is really important as is building placement.
As for faction selection, if you want it to matter you can house rule like many groups do. Some competitive groups draft or use an auction handicap system.
My first couple games i also had the feeling that it is to much solitaire. But once you play it more often and players get more experience it completely changes.
If you only do your thing it is a certain way to loose. Territory control does not seem to be important, but mech/worker placement is immensely important, for spreading yourself before the game ends or prohibiting others to spread. If you do not control enough territories and end the game you are gonna loose.
The factory and encounters are usually also highly competed for it. Encounters are always rewarding sometimes more sometimes less. Being first at the factory usually gives you first pick of the factory card. Which are pretty good most of the time. But not guaranteed to fit your strategy. It also gives your second move action which is always good.
But you always weigh , when should you go in. When are the others planning to go in. The factory also counts as three territories at the end of the game.
As for player interaction i love how combat works in the game. But that is a long topic.
In my opinion. if you think you can do whatever you do in your games of Scythe, you are not playing with competent players.In comparison there is a lot more interaction between players in scythe then in Terra mystica. Territory control and a good sense of when and where to fight are essential in winning games in Scythe.
I like both games, but Scythe has way more player interaction when played competitively compared to Terra Mystica
Oh Enlisting Recruits is also very underestimated by beginners. Picking the right recruits can give you a ton of free stuff, or nothing at all because you guessed wrong or opponent adapted because he does not want you to get free stuff.
"There's a lot of gravity in Canada today" 🤣
Love this game. It looks challenging but very accessible. I love Inis as well but it is a game that usually falls flat on the first play and is hard for people to wrap their heads around a particular strategy which in turn turns them off to the game. So far Scythe has been a lot of fun and I look forward to bring it to the table any chance I get.
I get the very subtle impression that there is lots of stuff in this box...
Have to say, this makes me want to play it.
Seems like the feeling of playing the game perfectly captures the intended feeling.