Good video. This is one of the main anchors that we use here in Switzerland. Interestingly, we refer to it as the most basic anchor. It would be very interesting to discuss with you the different styles. The biggest advantage is that the load is equally distributed on the bolts. An important consideration is that the angle between the bolts must be smaller than 60 degrees; otherwise, the load on the bolts will exceed 100% You can use a quickdraw instead of a single carabiner, and then you'll already have your dummy runner.
Curious as well, from my research it seems it stops any potential slipping of the knot in case of an anchor failing. Which in itself is probably extremely low probability....
@@nonsensei1 See these pull tests. I think it is worth putting the X in always - it's easy & stops any possibility of one side pulling through. ruclips.net/video/dgHlAlucRvc/видео.html
Also interested in whether you've considered the girth-x?It's just one extra twist in the sling, but seems to have some added anchor security benefits.
I often use a 'figure 8' instead of a carabiner on my anchor points. The advantage of the girth hitch is that it can be used on a 'figure 8' that has no gate. Like a rigging plate. What do you think about my method?
Theres also a anchor called the clove hitch quad anchor you double up a sling but instead of tieing your overhand knots you put a clove hitch on the carabiners that go to the bolts then you have a quad without the top shelfs
After I saw this older video I came to the conclusion that the normal girth hitch master point is not safe in general: ruclips.net/video/dgHlAlucRvc/видео.html. With the right combination of materials (slippery dyneema sling + slippery rap ring), the lab test showed that this could slip at 1-2 kN. Thus it could fail at bodyweight for 1-2 climbers after one cut of the sling, so I wouldn't call it a redundant anchor. Granted, when using a carabiner instead of a rap ring, their test showed slippage at 4-6 kN, which is probably fine. But if I were adopting this I would always use the sliding X girth hitch master point just to be safe.
@@AnonymousOtters Correct, it's not safe in general to tell people to use this system, without a list of asterisks including "don't use a rap ring" (which is not obvious).
I understand what you're getting at for sure. This anchor has a lot of extra stuff that goes with it, which is why I view it as an "advanced anchor," and shouldn't really be taught to people that are new to multi-ptich climbing. I feel like some guides/ instructors/ educators are using this as a go- to rather than a more specific anchor for a specific purpose. Since I only really use this in the alpine as a two piece alternative to the normal three piece or single feature monolithic anchor I'm only employing it on small pitches of fifth class, or longer fourth/ easy terrain. These are cases when two piece trad anchors are more than enough. This is how I keep a line of reasoning to employ this anchor. The acception to this is sport anchors since you only use two bolts and they are more than strong enough to do a full fifth class pitch belay. I also think the "rap ring" craze that is being used on instagram is just strange. Mostly because it seems to be guides that work on the east coast in primary rock terrain. Usually in rock terrain you're rappelling off of chains so I don't know why you would carry a rap ring just in case, it's so unlikely that you'll use it you're better off just leaving a carabiner. Karstin talks about this in his video since he doesn't carry the rap ring with him everywhere, some other guides are even taking out the Grivel Vlad carabiner for their master point, which is an even worse idea IMO! Sorry for the long reply, the main point I tried to make in this video was the terrain application and thoughts on when to use this anchor and when not to use this anchor. Understanding the strength of your anchor and the equipment in different anchor configurations is very important, but this anchor has already been tested by the manufacturers and the UIAA so I'm not worried about the overall strength of the setup since it has already been subjected to peer review.
@@ryantilley9063 Thanks for the reply! That mostly makes sense to me. I'm just a little puzzled how you mention the anchor's strength, but the objection here is not about strength but *redundancy*. Individual pieces of equipment are very strong, but we still need redundancy to account for certain rare failures--like a cam breaking the rock around it, or a rockfall cutting an anchor sling. Hence why even on easy or short pitches like you mention, we most always use at least 2 pieces. The problem with girth hitch master points IMO is that they *look* redundant, since we don't usually worry about knot slippage when analyzing anchors. But the fact is that they could slip under realistic loads after a sling cut. So they may look reasonable, but in fact they are no safer than using a 1-piece trad anchor (assuming for the sake of argument that we treat cam failures and sling failures as equally probable). In other words, if you wouldn't feel safe using a 1-piece anchor in a given situation, maybe you shouldn't use a girth hitch master point either. (Unless you use the sliding X variation, which seems better but is still not super inspiring IMO.) Of course, gear failures are rare and one could go for one's entire climbing career without encountering, say, a rockfall anchor sling cut. But to me, a well-engineered anchor is one that protects the user from potentially fatal rare events. EDIT: I see you addressed sling cuts a bit in another comment. I'm mostly just playing devil's advocate here, and I agree that it seems pretty unlikely to experience an accident like this on long 4th-class pitches. I just think the analysis of this thing is surprisingly nuanced, as it's one of the rare cases in anchor-building where knot slippage is a serious concern.
The clove has the carabiner turned 90° compared to the GH. Maybe better for top-roping than the GH because of that. I default to the GH because it's faster and I prefer its orientation.
I used the clove hitch anchor before the girth hitch became a thing in America, as far as my opinon goes they are pretty much the same and are more or less interchangeable.
Double the girth hitch. Pass the biner back through the neck a second time. Each round turn dissipates stresses. Ashley (Book of Knots) preached minimum three round turns but that would be too bulky for this application
Good video.
This is one of the main anchors that we use here in Switzerland. Interestingly, we refer to it as the most basic anchor. It would be very interesting to discuss with you the different styles. The biggest advantage is that the load is equally distributed on the bolts. An important consideration is that the angle between the bolts must be smaller than 60 degrees; otherwise, the load on the bolts will exceed 100%
You can use a quickdraw instead of a single carabiner, and then you'll already have your dummy runner.
Awsome video as always! Keep up the great work R! TY
Thanks for your insights!
I miss the magnetron
Thanks! Do you ever use the girth-x as well?
What is the Girth-X? I know the flying X.. Probably something I've seen, but can't connect with that term. Always looking for a new method. Thanks.
@@mr.wallace1074 sliding x before you girth it.
Curious as well, from my research it seems it stops any potential slipping of the knot in case of an anchor failing. Which in itself is probably extremely low probability....
@@nonsensei1 See these pull tests. I think it is worth putting the X in always - it's easy & stops any possibility of one side pulling through.
ruclips.net/video/dgHlAlucRvc/видео.html
Also interested in whether you've considered the girth-x?It's just one extra twist in the sling, but seems to have some added anchor security benefits.
I often use a 'figure 8' instead of a carabiner on my anchor points. The advantage of the girth hitch is that it can be used on a 'figure 8' that has no gate. Like a rigging plate. What do you think about my method?
Theres also a anchor called the clove hitch quad anchor you double up a sling but instead of tieing your overhand knots you put a clove hitch on the carabiners that go to the bolts then you have a quad without the top shelfs
After I saw this older video I came to the conclusion that the normal girth hitch master point is not safe in general: ruclips.net/video/dgHlAlucRvc/видео.html.
With the right combination of materials (slippery dyneema sling + slippery rap ring), the lab test showed that this could slip at 1-2 kN. Thus it could fail at bodyweight for 1-2 climbers after one cut of the sling, so I wouldn't call it a redundant anchor.
Granted, when using a carabiner instead of a rap ring, their test showed slippage at 4-6 kN, which is probably fine. But if I were adopting this I would always use the sliding X girth hitch master point just to be safe.
You concluded it wasn't safe after a video that shows that it's safe? Just don't use a rap ring as the master point...
@@AnonymousOtters Correct, it's not safe in general to tell people to use this system, without a list of asterisks including "don't use a rap ring" (which is not obvious).
I understand what you're getting at for sure. This anchor has a lot of extra stuff that goes with it, which is why I view it as an "advanced anchor," and shouldn't really be taught to people that are new to multi-ptich climbing. I feel like some guides/ instructors/ educators are using this as a go- to rather than a more specific anchor for a specific purpose.
Since I only really use this in the alpine as a two piece alternative to the normal three piece or single feature monolithic anchor I'm only employing it on small pitches of fifth class, or longer fourth/ easy terrain. These are cases when two piece trad anchors are more than enough. This is how I keep a line of reasoning to employ this anchor. The acception to this is sport anchors since you only use two bolts and they are more than strong enough to do a full fifth class pitch belay.
I also think the "rap ring" craze that is being used on instagram is just strange. Mostly because it seems to be guides that work on the east coast in primary rock terrain. Usually in rock terrain you're rappelling off of chains so I don't know why you would carry a rap ring just in case, it's so unlikely that you'll use it you're better off just leaving a carabiner.
Karstin talks about this in his video since he doesn't carry the rap ring with him everywhere, some other guides are even taking out the Grivel Vlad carabiner for their master point, which is an even worse idea IMO!
Sorry for the long reply, the main point I tried to make in this video was the terrain application and thoughts on when to use this anchor and when not to use this anchor. Understanding the strength of your anchor and the equipment in different anchor configurations is very important, but this anchor has already been tested by the manufacturers and the UIAA so I'm not worried about the overall strength of the setup since it has already been subjected to peer review.
@@ryantilley9063 Thanks for the reply! That mostly makes sense to me. I'm just a little puzzled how you mention the anchor's strength, but the objection here is not about strength but *redundancy*.
Individual pieces of equipment are very strong, but we still need redundancy to account for certain rare failures--like a cam breaking the rock around it, or a rockfall cutting an anchor sling. Hence why even on easy or short pitches like you mention, we most always use at least 2 pieces.
The problem with girth hitch master points IMO is that they *look* redundant, since we don't usually worry about knot slippage when analyzing anchors. But the fact is that they could slip under realistic loads after a sling cut. So they may look reasonable, but in fact they are no safer than using a 1-piece trad anchor (assuming for the sake of argument that we treat cam failures and sling failures as equally probable). In other words, if you wouldn't feel safe using a 1-piece anchor in a given situation, maybe you shouldn't use a girth hitch master point either. (Unless you use the sliding X variation, which seems better but is still not super inspiring IMO.)
Of course, gear failures are rare and one could go for one's entire climbing career without encountering, say, a rockfall anchor sling cut. But to me, a well-engineered anchor is one that protects the user from potentially fatal rare events.
EDIT: I see you addressed sling cuts a bit in another comment. I'm mostly just playing devil's advocate here, and I agree that it seems pretty unlikely to experience an accident like this on long 4th-class pitches. I just think the analysis of this thing is surprisingly nuanced, as it's one of the rare cases in anchor-building where knot slippage is a serious concern.
Girth hitch vs clove hitch anchor?
The clove has the carabiner turned 90° compared to the GH. Maybe better for top-roping than the GH because of that. I default to the GH because it's faster and I prefer its orientation.
I used the clove hitch anchor before the girth hitch became a thing in America, as far as my opinon goes they are pretty much the same and are more or less interchangeable.
Double the girth hitch. Pass the biner back through the neck a second time. Each round turn dissipates stresses. Ashley (Book of Knots) preached minimum three round turns but that would be too bulky for this application
That would end up bulky with the sling running over the gate, which is a no go, not even worth mentioning
You can always bring a marlin spike if you are worried about welded knots and are okay with weight.
The us navy i think make foldable marlin spike multitool they are pretty good
(Y)