In case it's not clear from the video, Thunder Ranch DOES want you to use the safety! If you show up to a class and give them the "this is my safety sir" line you might be asked (politely but firmly) to leave. The difference between what I'm used to and what TR teaches mostly boils down to the safety being disengaged one "step" sooner, and re-engaged one "step" later than I'm used to. I had a hard time fighting muscle memory to do it the TR way, which is why I wanted to talk about it in this video.
I wouldn’t be able to do it their way either and I suspect any well trained military veteran or someone trained in military marksmanship standards would be frustrated with them and they should adapt knowing it’s not wrong. ( both are acceptable )
@@Apalm12 On one hand, I think this is a cop out argument. In a gunfight you ain't worried about a lot of things I imagine but that doesn't mean training to do X isn't beneficial or better practice. On the other hand, yeah. This seems very close to if not in Extremely Marginal Gains territory.
I imagine James flying into PDX, renting a convertible mini cooper and pulling up outside of Hops house unannounced blasting Mumford & Sons and yelling something like " get in queer, were going to Ram Ranch"
I would love having cute range cats at my range. Three years ago I got a 4- week old kitten and bottle fed the narcissistic sociopath every two hours. Why would I do that? My buddies told me to get a little p-
I think Hop coming out and saying he doesn't fully agree with certain training aspects is good for the community. A lot of tenured instructors who have spent decades in the game get very locked in on certain techniques (and I'm not saying the guys at TR are necessarily guilty of this or even wrong), so it's good to get some fresh young dudes like Hop in here to share some perspective. Especially because Hop comes from strictly a civilian background, he doesn't have some set-in military doctrine or department policy that causes him to think one way or the other.
James Yeager at Tactical Response always said when on site do what they ask of you. However after the training take what you like, and discard the rest, which I think is pretty valid.
5:55 "If you're working with buddies who are, like yourself, probably just self-taught amateurs, I think the safety should be on as much as possible" lol I totally agree, especially when you and your buddies are also self-taught amateur bleed stoppers
Cop/ SWAT perspective on the safety thing: Unless you are actively firing at a target, the safety is on, always. You never know if whats going to pop out in front of you is a hostile or a hostage or an innocent bystander until you've taken the millisecond necessary to identify it. And in a situation with that much liability, it's actually better to give up that millisecond of response time than to punch a round through someone that didn't deserve it. Different places may train differently based on their own ROE, but in general I would agree with Hop in that the extra level of safety is preferred.
Nah I went to a class by a swat cop and he was all about finger on the trigger and safety off it’s a common SWAT thing John McPhee talks about and how stupid it is…
@@Burton3375 "shoot first ask later" is a crazy philosophy for a cop to have. they know what they're signing up for, the civilians around them don't. the lives of cops shouldn't take priority over the people they're supposed to be protecting
Actually, I find the "Switch to enable when shooting and leave it until fight is over." to be more confusing and have higher probablity of mistakes when scenario gets complicated. With "Switch enable when shooting. Disable when not shooting.", it is a simple rule. Always constant. With "Leave it until the fight is over." there are so many exceptions that causes confusion. "Except when jumping over fences." "Except when you have to sprint." "Except when the lull is too long." "Except when you need to fiddle with some equipment." "Except this... blah blah." "Except that.... blah blah." This ends up being "Flick when you get the gun up, some times, but no some other times.", "Flick down sometimes, but not some other times." which makes me constantly think about flicking the lever far more than I want to be occupied with it. Ambidextrous selecter lever is a must for me. Whatever criticism against it did not make it worth giving up capability to immediately fire left or right hand.
That's kind of how I think about it. In the reload example I would say, apply the safety because you might have to displace during the reload. The counter is "well if you do, just apply the safety then." Okay so now I have to follow a flow chart every time I change mags lol.
This is exactly what we were taught in the army, you never know when something on your gear or the environment will hook your trigger. Don't be that guy.
The general distrust against ambidextrous safety levers was earned. Ambidextrous safeties can be a single lever accessible by either hand, like the Garand or most bolt-action rifles, or by nature of a grip safety, like the M1911, P7, and many others. The problem with having a lever sticking out to either side is that they have to meet *and join* in the middle. This means it is *always* more fragile than a single, continuous, bar of well-forged steel . . . which is where the reputation comes from: cutting and milling a piece of steel changes its temper, while milling two separate pieces of steel and then tempering them separately resulted in unevenly quenched and poorly-tempered, sometimes poorly-fitting, ambidextrous safeties. These almost always had an extended lever, resting under the shooting hand's thumb. Under pressure, these levers would get over-torqued, separating at the internal join, and sometimes break off one of the interlocking flanges. This deadlined the firearm, by rendering it unable to operate until the broken bit is fished out of the trigger mechanism, magazine, firing pin assembly, or wherever else it ended up, plus having a gunsmith fit a new safety or replace the original. You see this today with the AK-12, 103/104/105, 203/204/205, which have an extended lever with a finger-shelf for the right-handed shooter's trigger-finger to sweep the dust-cover/bolt-lock safety on the right side, down. This often results in sweeping the safety *too far* down, breaking the safety mechanism and binding the sear and blocking the hammer, all in one go, by torquing the thin stamped-sheetmetal safety over the bump-stop in the receiver.
I was hoping the video was "what they dont teach you at Thunder Ranch", so we could also watch James do "what they do teach you at Thunder Ranch" and with 2 videos we would have the total sumational of all knowledge.
I think consistency of control parts between your ARs-assuming you have more than one (and who doesn’t?)-is more important than any particular type or style of control parts. That way, the training and muscle memory remain the same for all of your ARs.
FYI it ends up with a big focus on cost, because you're buying multiples of the same product. (I've started traveling down this road the last couple years)
Yes and no, you still want at least one of the “basic standard” model to practice with, so you can use any of that model with a brief moment to reorient yourself
Yes, I agree with this absolutely. My rifles all have ambi controls, so I disengage the 90 degree safety with my thumb, and flick it back on with the very first joint of my index finger, which keeps my grip intact. This, in addition to the bolt lock, have become a part of my default AR-type muscle memory so I find it wise to get more rifles with the same lower.
The safety thing is a doctrine thing, clint is a marine from the Vietnam era in his own words " I think more people died because of that safety more than anything" his reference is conscripted drafties who had a little to almost no time to learn. Pat is a delta guy who was the pioneer in delta training and modernization in som aspects the level in military career and time in combat and knowledge of the body and brain l. Thats the main difference in thier doctrines also clint teaches from the civilian minded angle where pat bridges the civilian and military mindset for effectiveness in the fight. Geest video
I'm glad you enjoyed your time at TR. They have a great corriculum, but are flexible. When I did the AK course they let me keepwith what I knew for reloads (from CENTER-T) just gave me some playful teasing the whole time.
13:17 Selector awareness issues are magnified on military rifles. The first time I had a live fire shoot with our new C7A2s (which has a truncated ambi fire selector) I was alarmed to find my carefully aimed single shot at 100m turned into a 3-round burst. My very high and tight grip brought the top of my hand into contact with the bottom of the selector, and the recoil of a previous shot nudged it perhaps 20 degrees off of the vertical "repetition" position - this was apparently enough to put the rifle into automatic. Thankfully, I was in a very solid prone position so my muzzle didn't move significantly enough to alert the nearby Warrant Officer. Once you know about it, you can mitigate it, but you might only discover it the hard way.
That's the same kind of thing that lead to the safety direction being reversed on the original M16's. Original testing guns had the position reversed and in US testing they found the safety could be put to a fire position from prone movements. Like if your rifle is being used to help drag you across the ground. It's the little things like that no one notices until it happens to them.
I wish Ben would work with Taurus on a competition pistol so we could live in a world where the “SteogerTaurus “🦄🦖shows up to events he is banned from 😂
I didn't think I needed backup iron sights until an unusual range day. It was a particularly hot and humid day (even for Missouri) but my rifle spent the drive inside my air conditioned car. When I first pulled it out at the range it immediately became covered in condensation. I couldn't see through my red dot at all. I could wipe it off but it would become occluded again almost instantly. It took more than 10 minutes for the optic to warm up enough to stop doing that. It occurred to me afterward that an optic that has been outside on a cold day that is then brought into a warm building could have the same problem, just ask anyone who wears glasses. Also, bringing my rifle out of my air conditioned home on a similarly hot and humid day could also be just as useless. So now I have OFFSET irons just in case I encounter a similar situation.
Very much so my same mindset on the safety. Safe until on target just makes the most sense on a weapon system as ergonomic as the AR. It feels like they were trying to teach Kalashnikov weapon manipulation? It works, that's fine, I prefer modern techniques that are safer and still plenty effective so long as you have a working thumb. I understand the desire for a backup sighting system but honestly any of them should do. If you have spare batteries for a durable optic like an Eotech that's enough. If you have irons with an optic that's enough. If you have a second sighting system not using the same mount, like an 45 degree offset red dot, that's enough too. Ambi bolt locks are something I really like having. I've never had a mistaken manipulation with that because I'm one of those weirdo's that have B.A.D. levers on all my rifles. I primarily use it for locking the bolt back and also use it to drop the bolt, however I 'sweep' my index finger up or down for that effect instead of pushing inwards. I chose to make this a habit years ago when I used to watch InRangeTV and Karl discussed people in competitions negligently discharging rounds down range when they meant to manipulate the lever with an inward squeeze of the finger into the trigger guard. I don't watch InRange anymore but that lesson I kept with me. Ambi mag releases are a waste of time if you have two working hands and aren't a cripple (sorry Brass Facts.) Appreciate your insights on these elements. It definitely looks like Thunder Ranch would be an awesome place to train. Nothing wrong with learning useful lessons and choosing when something just doesn't vibe with your reality.
I like using B.A.D Levers and I'm gonna get a Griffin MK2 ambi lower entirely because I like it so much. I don't want the rest of the ambi shit on my gun though. Mag release especially. Ambi safety can be tolerable if its a good one and the only one I've found that is somewhat OK is the Radian talon when in the short throw setting. Otherwise I'd rather have a milspec right hand safety. Everything else rubs the knuckle of my trigger finger and my hands are basically normal size.
Even with modernized AKs there are no excuses for it. The Krebs enhanced safety makes it easy to use with your index finger either up or down, meaning switching between the two is right where your index finger rests when you are off the trigger, which is great.
I’m left eye dominant and right handed. I don’t have iron sights because of that. I watched a video with a guy who had been delta and he pointed out that in combat if an optic goes out it still has a window. Target filling the window will lead to a hit. Combat shooting is not precision shooting.
One of my friends is a firearms instructor for the military and LE community, and flat out won't work with anyone who doesn't abide by safety on until on target method. His logic is: if you are moving around a team, behind barricades and under stress, it's imperative to, you know, not ND into your buddy's leg because your chambered rifle snags his radio antenna or whatever. All of my hero friends argue with me about it all the time, that [wiggles finger] "this is my safety", but I am going to keep doing it the Hop way- safety on until on target.
So what does he do for the myriad of handgun scenarios involving the 90% of modern handguns that don’t have a safety and where you are moving and manipulating it? It’s just an odd double standard in my opinion.
@jimyeats If you're in a legit fight, you should have a rifle. For civilians, pistol should be in the holster or planning on shooting. The holster is the pistols safety.
@@JohnDoe-zs6gj You’re missing my point. I’m not saying you shouldn’t have a rifle if possible. I’m saying that 90% of modern handguns don’t have safeties on them, and lots of training and threat scenarios involve using a pistol. The majority of police encounters involve a pistol and not a rifle, as do the majority of civilian encounters. So is this instructor just LOSING HIS MIND that someone is going through a scenario with a pistol that doesn’t have a manual safety? My point being; what’s the fundamental difference? Why is it OK to go through an entire training scenario with a pistol without a safety, but it’s totally NOT ok to be in direct control of your AR and keep the safety off while you are actively in an active threat scenario? You aren’t “holstering” your pistol in the middle of a training scenario or active threat. You are just maintaining good finger discipline.
I think a further consideration is the swapping of triggers. Mil spec triggers should have a higher average pull weight and are less likely to go off unintentionaly than the reduced pull weight triggers a lot of people like putting into their ARs. An even higher degree of trigger discipline/awareness is required with lighter triggers so the easiest solution for civilian applications would be to just have it on safe at all times unless on target/firing.
900.00 to be told your rifle is wrong. I applaud you for holding onto your own views and applying lessons where they had benefit however, I come here to listen to you ramble like a crazy person is the highlight of the show.
You also have to pay for 3,000 rounds of ammo, your own food and hotel. $900+$1,400+$120 = $2,420 to shoot at Thunder Ranch for a weekend. Plane ticket not included. Ooof
@@almostontimehero5415 oh and take some time off of work probably and use vacation time too so no income during that period of overpaying for 1 or 2 days of being told you're wrong.
@@isaiahmiller9142for that price the ammo and burgers should be provided. I can understand an expensive rifle course because of targets and land and whatever but a handgun course doesnt take up much room unless its a 500 meter stocked artillery Luger handgun course.
1. I prefer your method too, as it's similar to what I learned in the Army. Though in Thunder Ranch's defense, that was when Reagan was in office so they may still be right. That said, I'm pretty sure anyone well trained/practiced on either method will have zero NDs over their lifetime due to those practices. 2. As my NCOs used to say, "One is none; Two is one." That is to say it's always best to have a second option/spare. Saying "my X is bullet proof so I don't need a backup, spare, etc" is just _daring_ Murphy to come out of hide and mess with you in some crazy, unanticipated way. 3. I don't have a rifle with any ambidextrous controls. So even I wouldn't respect my own opinion on them.
Says a lot about you that you're willing to come out and publicly, but kindly, disagree with people who have much more experience (and probably clout) than you do because you believe in your own opinions and experience. So many men aren't stubborn enough. You're a class act and my favorite firearms content creator Hop.
People should remember that disagreeing can be a debate, not an argument It's okay and, in my opinion, necessary to question things that are related to your safety
idk i think hop has a fair bit of clout. he's certainly not as big as people like garand thumb but 1. that's not who he's opposing 2. his fans (me) are more dedicated than most social media personalities fans. that being said, your thesis is agreeable, this autistic focus on MY SAFETY DOCTRINE IS 100% CORRECT IF YOU DEVIATE YOU ARE A DANGER / YOUR HYPER DURABLE HOLOGRAPHIC OPTIC IS BAD BECAUSE WHAT IF IT RUNS OUT OF THE SAME BATTERY YOUR LIGHT AND NODS USE AND YOU HAVE 4 OF ON YOUR KIT is gay.
@@Schrodingers_kid ar·gu·ment noun plural noun: arguments 1. an exchange of diverging or opposite views, typically a heated or angry one. "I've had an argument with my father" 2. a reason or set of reasons given with the aim of persuading others that an action or idea is right or wrong. "there is a strong argument for submitting a formal appeal"
Safety stays on by default and the finger stays out of the trigger guard. Finger goes onto the trigger and thumb snaps down the safety at the same time. Finger comes off the trigger and you can put the safety back on as you remove the finger from the trigger guard or lower the rifle.
Hop, I couldn’t agree more on the safety. I trained with a particular group of guys for about 2.5 years before we had to move. We trained weekly and became very proficient up to live fire shoot house drills in gas masks or night vision. Given that with most modern firearms you can either pull the safety and then the trigger, or the trigger and then the safety, you can engage both at the same time and not worry about the thousandths of a second on which actually came first. There’s no reason other than complacency in my book to ever not engage the safety on/off only when you’re actively shooting. Once you’re used to it and it’s muscle memory, there’s zero issue. And for anyone reading this, if you disagree, ask yourself which group you’d be happier with your daughters or sons go train with in a live fire drill. Then once you realize your argument is weak, go work that safety in some simple up/down drills.
It is amazing, though, how many guys are strongly opposed to this method, wiggling their fingers tHiS iS mY sAfEtY. I'm just a dirty civilian, so when pros like Pat McNamara and guys like him I have learned from trained with say "safety on reloads" and "safety until on target", I'm fucking training that way.
@@junkmanjam9945Safety during reloads is dumb. It’s not widely applicable. You can’t do that with a lot of guns. Yet no one has an issue with reloading a glock(which has no external safety), or AK(cannot be reloaded while on safe). Think for yourself. Stop appealing to authority.
#1 - Totally agree - if the hammer is cocked, safety on. #2 - totally agree. I can’t see up close without my glasses. #3 - I took the left side mag release off my M400, 90 degree safety only but like ambidextrous safety.
I agree with Hop , saftey ON at all times until your on target ! and I do like the 45° thumb On at all times, Not braking grip . I'd probably get a minis for mag catch extension , it's so much easier for my finger to find , it's exactly where I need it to be, I don't have to stretch and hunt for it. No bad lever .
"Oh hail no" to one thing you said: Law Enforcement having a "prepped trigger" has resulted in multiple documented cases of innocent people getting shot and killed (one I recall in NYC was merely in the trigger guard where a cop was spooked). The reason for having the finger off the trigger entirely is specifically because in a chaotic setting with a lllooooooonnnnggg list of possible things to surprise you, you're far more likely to end up shooting in error than you are to react to a baddie with ungodly speed.
I was always taught as a civilian and in training that your safety is on until and unless you're ready to fire, full stop. You don't move with it off, you don't reload with it off, etc.
This is true. Swat and police have so many negligent discharges it's crazy. There are even many cases when there's no threat and they're just moving around a location well after it's been secured and have an ND. Also, a lot of these training schools seems to be more like rock star camps for affluent, adult men to LARP.
I put off putting BUI on my main rifle for a long time because I had very little real estate with the switches and light and LAM. Eventually ended up tweaking things around and got a folding back sight and fixed front squeezed in there. Many rifles, particularly ones set up for night fighting don't have the space for the classic set of folding BUI, but there's some workarounds like the Leaf sights for DBAL, etc. Never had an issue with needing it before, but good to have the option of course.
BAD levers for left-handed shooters are a cheap and relatively low profile way to get right-side bolt release functionality. After the right hand inserts the mag, the right thumb presses the tip of the BAD lever protruding through the trigger guard and drops the bolt. Maybe it wasn't designed with this in mind but I've used it like that in some high pressure/timed drills and it works great. Also lower profile than a right-side bolt release so it's much less likely to drop the bolt as it rubs against the shooter's gear. BAD Lever + Troy ambi mag release is the ultimate lefty combo.
I'm with hop on the safety thing. I've been to a few classes and I've experienced some of these dogmatic instructors. It can be disconcerting because you've been training a certain way for years and then you have an instructor potentially making you feel like an idiot because you don't do things exactly their way immediately.
Ironic that the dude criticized no back up oron sights as a " just in case" but thinks ambi controls are dumb. " I'm right handed" Sure, until you aren't. Is it a likely scenario? About as likely as getting into a gunfight as a civilian in the first place. So where do we draw the line for "realistic" vs "necessary"?
If you're that incapacitated that you can't operate your rifle one handed, you're probably not worried about operating the safety and will probably be dead in the next hour.
@@mosulmedic7048it's an interesting thought experiment and tbh I think most of this is LARPing. People come up with these elaborate situations cause they're bored or paranoid then form their doctrine to match it. I think hop made some great points, especially with the safety and how most people train. Let's be honest, the two most common scenarios are either a doomsday scenario where society breaks down or the US civil war 2. In a real crisis, you are going to be avoiding people whenever possible or sniping from long distance, not room clearing at the speed of light.
Weak side manipulations and “arm going down theory” is the most cringe thing being taught in tactics today. Most instructors just use that to fill space in a class or have something to teach that makes them look cool and makes them seem more credible. Reality is if your arm goes down in a fight, it’s game over. You’re either dead in the next few minutes or you probably do the smart thing and run away to assess the wound. Or if you’re really going to stay in the fight, I can promise you’re not going to be worrying about flipping a safety on and off. On the flip side, optics go down all the time. Most of the time is people being silly and forgetting to swap batteries. Hop is kinda wrong on this one. Seen it happen working with SF units, military, LEO, and all the time with students. It’s really not hard. Most of their builds had plenty of space to run flip ups even if they aren’t mounted in the ideal areas of the rail.
@@kilo0151 People have lost their dominant arms in combat and continued gunfighting. I treated a few casualties 2017 in Iraq that were hit in the hand/arm and had to swap and manipulate with their off hand. It's ludicrous to insinuate that an injury to the hand is a death sentence. If that were true, the same would be said about any injury. So this further goes into the " what are you basing this on, and when is it not relevant anymore?" Point. It's happened before, but isn't a common thing. Conversely, ive never had an optic go out on me in combat. But it is possible
I'm glad the gun community isn't an echo chamber, but i also hate that a decent majority will be harsh just because someone doesn't agree with what they perceive a higher authority (its the internet though). You also provided great alternative teachers as examples. Pat Mac is a great guy and local to me and have had a few chat at a bar or 2. Sometimes, information is outdated. Had a guy that worked with me have firearm knowledge just kind of stop in the 90s and would carry a beretta 92 or a few different revolvers in a crossdraw and was weirded out by us new age guys.
Great video Hop. I'm a 62 year old who was taught his technics in 1979, Army training Sir! Last year I attended a 2 day Apple Seed class. Went in with an open mind and had a great time. Learned good shooting skills with all age groups, and got really good History lessons too. I do not like the Hasty Sling technic they taught, but stuck with it both days.
I can appreciate HOP's perspective. I was a Marine Corps weapons instructor (PMI). Based on what Hop shared, I can see his point of view. There are 4 weapon handling/safety rules Marines abide by. The No. 4 rule goes inline with the No. 2 rule: 2. NEVER POINT A WEAPON AT ANYTHING YOU DO NOT INTEND TO SHOOT. 4. KEEP THE WEAPON ON SAFE UNTIL YOU INTEND TO FIRE. Based on what's ingrained with my own experience as both a Marine and a firearms instructor of Marines. I've pounded that principle into my Marines for years. So, if I am not pointing my weapon at something I have no intention of shooting, my weapon is on safe. It's interesting TR went a different route, considering Clint is also a Marine. However, I am open minded and may explore things. But, those Marine Corps gun safety rules are a lynchpin of my own sense of safe control and manipulation. I may practice what Hop stated TR is training these days. EDIT: I should also add, I was a also Military Police, and we did not train with firearms differently based on being SRT (Special Reaction Team) at least when I was in as I got out in 2004. Things may certainly have changed by now based the SWAT/Police example Hop mentions.
As Chuck Pressburg will gladly tell anyone: you can outrun your headlights and end up taking a shot that you were in no way justified taking. Having the safety on an extra microsecond won't get you killed but it might keep you from accidentally shooting someone who doesn't need to get shot.
Similar thoughts have been going through my head since seeing that video. I used to use my safety the TR way, "if I'm fighting, I should just keep the safety off and do the Blackhawk Down thing," right up until I saw a vid of Pat Mac doing a shoot house where you could very clearly hear the constant clicking of the safety. Convinced me to look into it, and between him and a Shepdev video on safety use not delaying your first shot time, I now keep the safety on just about all the time. It also factors into my use of short throw safeties. It doesn't really matter for taking the weapon off safe, but putting it back on is a lot easier to do with my index finger knuckle with a short throw than with the GI on my work piece, where I have a (much less exaggerated) break in my grip.
was once part of the great field exercises of my mom's basement during 2020. Months of staying in the field without a shower, only MRE's and my rifle to keep me company. My Amazon red dot that had thousands of 5 star reviews died in the first week of the exercises. Good thing I had my Magpul plastic backup sight on there right out of the box. Didn't even need to zero it since it was on there from the manufacturer! If this is you, please go check your iron sights
i agree. my safety stays on until i'm on target and gets immediately flipped back to safe just after the last round gets sent. i think it's important to do extra when it comes to safety just so you have more safety engrained. it's better to have.. extra safety steps you can cut down on if that makes sense. the range is where i drill in these practices. so if anything ever does happen, it's already instilled in me to be as safe as possible if you're all loosey with safety, and shit hits the fan, you're much more likely to hit a friendly when adrenaline is pumping
As a GWOT era know it all, I can definitively say that you are right about the safety. Not every scenario is a felony stop or a 1970s stand off with Hawaiian 5.0, the GWOT taught us that your weapon is on safe until you are ready to fire and back on safe if you are not firing, and that's how you need to live your life....
Thank you Hop. Thunder Ranch is one of the schools in my top 3 list that I want to attend. With any luck I'll be able to go next year some time. God bless! Be safe! 🤙🪖👮🙏🇺🇲
I worked at a shooting range from 2002-06 and I absolutely developed a way of doing and saying things that just seemed to work the best for the greatest number of customers. Some people might have been better served with a different approach though. When you have to keep things moving smoothly you just get into your groove and keep doing things that give good results most of the time.
Well said. I appreciate that you did *learn* the stuff but made a conscious decision to not use it in your personal life. Too often see people throw things from classes away without a second thought.
I’m right handed, and ever since getting my first ambi-safety, I started using putting the right/trigger finger-side lever up and forward (as opposed to having it mirror the down/back of the safety on my thumb side). To me this is way more ergonomic, including: - Easier to flip on by pressing forward with my right index finger than up with my left thumb - Safer; eg if I’m actuating the safety on with my trigger finger, then by definition it’s also not on the trigger finger Literally the only excuse I’ve heard “recommended against that” is people saying “because [fill in the blank name] said so once.” Umm… ok. Once you have a legitimate reason based in logic and facts, then maybe I’ll listen. Otherwise try to think for yourself.
I'm going to push back on this because the exact opposite actually happened to me. I'm left-handed, and I kept all my rifles right-handed because "there's no left-handed guns in the jungle." I trained thousands of dry and live reps using the trigger finger sweep you mentioned. I thought it was fine. Until I was in a match, shooting from an awkward position, moved a little too fast, and tried to sweep backwards to put the rifle on safe. My trigger finger curled in and pulled the trigger before the safety came on. I got hit with a match DQ, my first in four years of shooting matches. Immediately when I got home, I swapped for a left-handed safety. There's no reason I should be pulling my trigger finger backwards to put the gun on safe when I also pull my trigger finger backwards to fire the gun. Things might be different for you. Just saying 😊
100% with you on safety usage. I think it was Pannone who advocated for engaging the safety as soon as the cheek comes off the stock because that allows for consistency in usage of the safety. If one tries to remember to place the safety on at some arbitrary later time (e.g. before moving), the loss of consistency means one is more likely to fail to engage the safety. (Yes, I know the gun won't go on safe if there's a malfunction which results in the hammer being forward.)
Good stuff Hop! There isn't "A way". Learn from others, be appreciative of the knowledge and experience they have and their ability to relay it to you well, keep what is useful to you and keep learning.
The iron sights thing .... why not just show up with a C-note? I've done a lot of training for, and with LE, and yea, those MFs never maintain their gear, their weapons are always dirty, and the optics batteries are always dead. At the same time, a lot of the military world involves trying to get 90iq recruits who have never been around firearms to not shoot themselves or each other. These groups all tend to have a very specific culture when it comes to firearms, that are often at odds with what most people would consider normal.
I think that's probably what TR is combating. Much less dudes who compete or take their setups so seriously they meticulously minmax their rifles 5000 times a year. I agree with Hop on all points but him having to make this video is evidence that cherry picking instructor teachings is still important in 2024.
Not for nothing, but I’ve broken far more back up irons than Eotech’s and Aimpoints in a decade of military service, so I’m with you. I understand the applications are completely different. In terms of pure reliability though, I trust my modern Eotech more than back irons. But also we’re largely talking about something additionally bolted to the top of the receiver/rail and not integrated like a A2 style handle and front post.
Iron sights are a must. Personally and professionally I have seen and experienced broken optics,mounts, dead batteries, out of zero optics and all other manner of failures. Safety- on while moving or w a hot rifle unless actively engaging targets. Ambitious, exotic, bang-blinged out rifles just add weight and more points of failures. Keep a business rifle simple- sling, light, good optics. - 30 yrs in LE and all the FI stuff etc.
The number of negligent discharge injuries/deaths in the military, particularly in combat zones is insanely high and we will never know the true extant of it as the military goes to great lengths to hide it, but it is very high.
That’s an interesting point. It’s backed up by everyone who has tried to change a changed habit. If the habit is turning the safety on/off, it is done automatically. Where I’m going with that is I assume you advocate for turning on the safety.
Strangly the Air force has the least amount of negligent discharges and we keep our weapons in the hottest configuration of all the branches. One in the pipe at all times with safety on is the standard resting position for us while deployed. I'm Rescue Helicopter Maintenance and we were like that my entire time in Somalia.
The concept of always putting the safety on when off target is similar to the concept of the Swiss Cheese model. It's one extra barrier in addition to the basic rules of gun safety in between you and an ND/AD. Even if one or two layers of that safety net are "breached" due to negligence, necessity, or the nature of the engagement, there are more layers to catch you before that ND/AD occurs. Safety on while not on target is a rule I enforce when shooting with my buddies because moving and shooting can be unpredictable. People trip or slip sometimes and if they go down with their finger on the trigger, safety on saves the day.
1st one is surprising. Many millennials that I know that are into guns use the On Target, On Trigger, Off Target, Off Trigger method and use the safety when they aren't planning on shooting. In a team training environment, having to shoot around others with live ammo, I get using the safety
At least you got to take a class that caused you to think critically about your approach to your rifle set up and your techniques for manipulating it. You were able to come away with a better understanding of why you do the things you do or why you might want to try doing it a different way. This last weekend I took a class and paid for someone to give me about five minutes of instruction, and then it was an absolute free-for-all cluster fuck after that. So that was fun.
I'm pretty wary of most "training" classes because it's very common for the instructor to spend the entire time helping the one guy who needs the most help (i.e. is actively dangerous to everyone else in the class) so you're just kinda doing drills by yourself. But also you paid a lot of money to be there and it's loud as hell. :)
@@Hoplopfheil I've been overwhelmingly lucky with other classes I've gone to. Most of the time a competent instructor will have "RSOs" that can give more attention to students that need more help. That way they can be freed up to keep the rest of the class moving. This last weekend I took a class that was just that way and it was fantastic. Didn't hurt that it was also cheaper than the debacle class.
Funny now that I think of it, when I was in the (Canadian) army I don’t remember them ever teaching us anything that specific when it comes to safety manipulation, but I always did on target off safe, off target on safe intuitively anyway because it’s just so quick and easy. It’s possible I just don’t remember being taught that, it’s been a while.
My team had early Gen 552 Eotechs. We had about a 90% failure rate. Due to broken battery terminals, switch failures, battery drain, and that’s not mentioning the wonderful phenomenon known as lens delamination. I bought a new Gen EXP?? . Fired enough rounds to zero it and put it away. I didn’t have the opportunity to use it again until I did an op 2 months later. Powered it up. No low battery warning. Finished the op and went to turn it off and had no reticle. Tuned out there was some sort short in the switch. It was repaired under warranty. But after that experience I had zero confidence in it and sold it. Now my other sights which are H1’s and T1’s have given me zero issues.
I totally agree with you about the safety and I've always done it your way even as an Army infantryman. I was never an "operator" so maybe then I could have been talked into changing. As a civilian patriot and part-time firearms instructor, I've never changed from my Army days. I also agree that a rifleman's manual of arms with the safety lever can legitimately be role-based.
I both agree and disagree with you on several of your comments; and I guess that's the point of this video. Nothing is perfect, once it is we can't get better.
I agree with the safety operation; thats a training component and if you train to disengage the safety when coming up it's a non issue. Irons are a must. Imagine you're going somewhere without any extra supplies and that supposedly indestructible red dot or holographic sight dies - not due to battery failure or getting hit; just stops working. Having seen such tough brands as aim point and eotech items stop working; you should have irons if that rifle is serious. All the other stuff is personnal preference.
Hop - I agree totally with the way you approach the safety on the AR. Ambi safety's work because many people can't manipulate the left side safety both ways..
In case it's not clear from the video, Thunder Ranch DOES want you to use the safety! If you show up to a class and give them the "this is my safety sir" line you might be asked (politely but firmly) to leave.
The difference between what I'm used to and what TR teaches mostly boils down to the safety being disengaged one "step" sooner, and re-engaged one "step" later than I'm used to. I had a hard time fighting muscle memory to do it the TR way, which is why I wanted to talk about it in this video.
I can see Clint asking to see that finger and politely snapping it for you
I wouldn’t be able to do it their way either and I suspect any well trained military veteran or someone trained in military marksmanship standards would be frustrated with them and they should adapt knowing it’s not wrong. ( both are acceptable )
You’ve never been in a gunfight that why your worried about the safety. In a gunfight you ain’t worried about that safety
@@Apalm12 has pat mac been in any gunfights?
@@Apalm12 On one hand, I think this is a cop out argument. In a gunfight you ain't worried about a lot of things I imagine but that doesn't mean training to do X isn't beneficial or better practice.
On the other hand, yeah. This seems very close to if not in Extremely Marginal Gains territory.
I imagine James flying into PDX, renting a convertible mini cooper and pulling up outside of Hops house unannounced blasting Mumford & Sons and yelling something like " get in queer, were going to Ram Ranch"
He definitely gives off 80’s gay coke dealer vibes. A cool gay coke dealer though.
@@Finman78Is there such a thing as a not cool 80's gay coke dealer?!
@@Isometrix116 If you're starting a poll, put me down for: mostly likely not.
You say it like this isn't exactly what happened.
All of them with the Jean short shorts
Hop was so positive because he was constantly surrounded by cute range cats.
I would love having cute range cats at my range. Three years ago I got a 4- week old kitten and bottle fed the narcissistic sociopath every two hours. Why would I do that? My buddies told me to get a little p-
Love the range cat.
My loud mouthed black cat looks almost exactly the same and wanted to know “Who the hell is in my living room?” 🤣
THERE ARE RANGE CATS?!
They are pretty cute
Hop is the hero we need to tell us that it is okay to disagree with youtube's favorite people and brands.
This is so underrated. Take in all the information and use what works for your situation.
Absolutely @@anglerf0rlife
You need someone to tell you that?
@@greebuh Some people do. They take one person's opinion and experience as gospel.
as seen on january 6., some people believe even politicians.@@greebuh
I think Hop coming out and saying he doesn't fully agree with certain training aspects is good for the community. A lot of tenured instructors who have spent decades in the game get very locked in on certain techniques (and I'm not saying the guys at TR are necessarily guilty of this or even wrong), so it's good to get some fresh young dudes like Hop in here to share some perspective. Especially because Hop comes from strictly a civilian background, he doesn't have some set-in military doctrine or department policy that causes him to think one way or the other.
James Yeager at Tactical Response always said when on site do what they ask of you. However after the training take what you like, and discard the rest, which I think is pretty valid.
All boomer instructors try to be unique and special snowflakes so they come up with some ludicrous BS that they make everyone follow
Agree
@@tubeguy4066 Ironically Hop uses the safety in the most FUD way possible.
Even in the military they teach you communication: If you have something important to say - do it
We need to communicate and debate to evolve
5:55 "If you're working with buddies who are, like yourself, probably just self-taught amateurs, I think the safety should be on as much as possible" lol I totally agree, especially when you and your buddies are also self-taught amateur bleed stoppers
This needs more attention
Knives have sheaths, guns have safeties, neither work unless removed! lol
Give it to Hop, he hates everything!
More hates, less brown-nosing.
not cats
“Safety always off” - Cyrus
Old man Ave me hat gun said h3 was proud of me once
i think thats a quote from gaston glock though, while he also said " safeties always on"
Fuckin way she goes
“seen a lot of action”
Way she goes
Hop getting irritated from the comments even before the comments appear is entertaining indeed.
Did I call it or did I call it
@@Hoplopfheil yeah you did indeed lol.
A long time ago a wise man told me, take what works, leave what doesn't.
Like a salad bar. 🥗
The ol' honeybee method. 🍯
He definitely learned that James can buy off/lawyer his way into anything
Most people find it useful to tell others about lessons learned. Hop finds it useful to tell others about lessons not learned.
Cop/ SWAT perspective on the safety thing: Unless you are actively firing at a target, the safety is on, always. You never know if whats going to pop out in front of you is a hostile or a hostage or an innocent bystander until you've taken the millisecond necessary to identify it. And in a situation with that much liability, it's actually better to give up that millisecond of response time than to punch a round through someone that didn't deserve it. Different places may train differently based on their own ROE, but in general I would agree with Hop in that the extra level of safety is preferred.
phucc ewe and the safety flipping BS. cops are the last ones to know anything much about guns. shove yer blue stripe flag.
Nah I went to a class by a swat cop and he was all about finger on the trigger and safety off it’s a common SWAT thing John McPhee talks about and how stupid it is…
@@Burton3375 "shoot first ask later" is a crazy philosophy for a cop to have. they know what they're signing up for, the civilians around them don't. the lives of cops shouldn't take priority over the people they're supposed to be protecting
keep your finger off the god damn trigger
@@makhnobuxabhorrent attitude, that’s probably how a lot of cops think though
Actually, I find the "Switch to enable when shooting and leave it until fight is over." to be more confusing and have higher probablity of mistakes when scenario gets complicated.
With "Switch enable when shooting. Disable when not shooting.", it is a simple rule. Always constant. With "Leave it until the fight is over." there are so many exceptions that causes confusion.
"Except when jumping over fences."
"Except when you have to sprint."
"Except when the lull is too long."
"Except when you need to fiddle with some equipment."
"Except this... blah blah."
"Except that.... blah blah."
This ends up being "Flick when you get the gun up, some times, but no some other times.", "Flick down sometimes, but not some other times." which makes me constantly think about flicking the lever far more than I want to be occupied with it.
Ambidextrous selecter lever is a must for me. Whatever criticism against it did not make it worth giving up capability to immediately fire left or right hand.
That's kind of how I think about it. In the reload example I would say, apply the safety because you might have to displace during the reload. The counter is "well if you do, just apply the safety then." Okay so now I have to follow a flow chart every time I change mags lol.
This is exactly what we were taught in the army, you never know when something on your gear or the environment will hook your trigger. Don't be that guy.
@@theoldefirme4500The army had to account for the GED waiver enlistee with a 75 IQ. It’s not the best benchmark.
The general distrust against ambidextrous safety levers was earned.
Ambidextrous safeties can be a single lever accessible by either hand, like the Garand or most bolt-action rifles, or by nature of a grip safety, like the M1911, P7, and many others.
The problem with having a lever sticking out to either side is that they have to meet *and join* in the middle. This means it is *always* more fragile than a single, continuous, bar of well-forged steel . . . which is where the reputation comes from: cutting and milling a piece of steel changes its temper, while milling two separate pieces of steel and then tempering them separately resulted in unevenly quenched and poorly-tempered, sometimes poorly-fitting, ambidextrous safeties. These almost always had an extended lever, resting under the shooting hand's thumb. Under pressure, these levers would get over-torqued, separating at the internal join, and sometimes break off one of the interlocking flanges.
This deadlined the firearm, by rendering it unable to operate until the broken bit is fished out of the trigger mechanism, magazine, firing pin assembly, or wherever else it ended up, plus having a gunsmith fit a new safety or replace the original.
You see this today with the AK-12, 103/104/105, 203/204/205, which have an extended lever with a finger-shelf for the right-handed shooter's trigger-finger to sweep the dust-cover/bolt-lock safety on the right side, down. This often results in sweeping the safety *too far* down, breaking the safety mechanism and binding the sear and blocking the hammer, all in one go, by torquing the thin stamped-sheetmetal safety over the bump-stop in the receiver.
Leaving the safety off safe is easier to go with if you have qualified immunity.
James Bond's safety was always off and he never fathered a child (only real james bond).
@@frankberger7035His nads were irradiated in Dr. No 🤷🏻♂️
@@mrkeogh The Goldfinger laser scene was actually a vasectomy.
I don’t think you have a good understanding of what qualified immunity actually is.
@@Noahlochner0 It amounts to "we investigated ourselves and found we did nothing wrong."
When you see Hop at the grocery store ask him if he's staying safe
I was hoping the video was "what they dont teach you at Thunder Ranch", so we could also watch James do "what they do teach you at Thunder Ranch" and with 2 videos we would have the total sumational of all knowledge.
Today I learned that Hop and I agree on more things than I thought.
Congrats?
Same. Lol
yup , his 3 points were ingrainded in me for 20 yrs.. Hop does a good job when he needs to explain with respect, a proper alternate way. he does good.
Hop is showing us his Chaotic nature by arguing with himself. Inside of you there are Two Wolves.
Both of them are gay. He is gay.
both wolves are retarded lol
cringe
cringe
cringe
I can confirm Thunder Ranch is fantastic, enjoyed every second of being there. Clint and Heidi are superb hosts and instructors.
They make you feel like family when you're there.
Insert Napoleon Dynamite *lucky* gif here.
I think consistency of control parts between your ARs-assuming you have more than one (and who doesn’t?)-is more important than any particular type or style of control parts. That way, the training and muscle memory remain the same for all of your ARs.
I've been thinking about this more lately.
Absolutely. I have a 20", a 16", and an 11.9", and all the same everything down to the grip.
FYI it ends up with a big focus on cost, because you're buying multiples of the same product. (I've started traveling down this road the last couple years)
Yes and no, you still want at least one of the “basic standard” model to practice with, so you can use any of that model with a brief moment to reorient yourself
Yes, I agree with this absolutely. My rifles all have ambi controls, so I disengage the 90 degree safety with my thumb, and flick it back on with the very first joint of my index finger, which keeps my grip intact. This, in addition to the bolt lock, have become a part of my default AR-type muscle memory so I find it wise to get more rifles with the same lower.
The safety thing is a doctrine thing, clint is a marine from the Vietnam era in his own words " I think more people died because of that safety more than anything" his reference is conscripted drafties who had a little to almost no time to learn. Pat is a delta guy who was the pioneer in delta training and modernization in som aspects the level in military career and time in combat and knowledge of the body and brain l. Thats the main difference in thier doctrines also clint teaches from the civilian minded angle where pat bridges the civilian and military mindset for effectiveness in the fight. Geest video
I'm glad you enjoyed your time at TR. They have a great corriculum, but are flexible. When I did the AK course they let me keepwith what I knew for reloads (from CENTER-T) just gave me some playful teasing the whole time.
The Tactical Comrade reload works.
13:17 Selector awareness issues are magnified on military rifles. The first time I had a live fire shoot with our new C7A2s (which has a truncated ambi fire selector) I was alarmed to find my carefully aimed single shot at 100m turned into a 3-round burst. My very high and tight grip brought the top of my hand into contact with the bottom of the selector, and the recoil of a previous shot nudged it perhaps 20 degrees off of the vertical "repetition" position - this was apparently enough to put the rifle into automatic. Thankfully, I was in a very solid prone position so my muzzle didn't move significantly enough to alert the nearby Warrant Officer. Once you know about it, you can mitigate it, but you might only discover it the hard way.
That's the same kind of thing that lead to the safety direction being reversed on the original M16's. Original testing guns had the position reversed and in US testing they found the safety could be put to a fire position from prone movements. Like if your rifle is being used to help drag you across the ground. It's the little things like that no one notices until it happens to them.
Grumpy Ben Steoger noises
The Steggler
"workspace"
I wish Ben would work with Taurus on a competition pistol so we could live in a world where the “SteogerTaurus “🦄🦖shows up to events he is banned from 😂
I didn't think I needed backup iron sights until an unusual range day. It was a particularly hot and humid day (even for Missouri) but my rifle spent the drive inside my air conditioned car. When I first pulled it out at the range it immediately became covered in condensation. I couldn't see through my red dot at all. I could wipe it off but it would become occluded again almost instantly. It took more than 10 minutes for the optic to warm up enough to stop doing that. It occurred to me afterward that an optic that has been outside on a cold day that is then brought into a warm building could have the same problem, just ask anyone who wears glasses. Also, bringing my rifle out of my air conditioned home on a similarly hot and humid day could also be just as useless. So now I have OFFSET irons just in case I encounter a similar situation.
I hate offsets but what you just said is a great reason for having QDs
Which Thunder Ranch cat was your favorite?
Stache or the solid black one (Shadow?)
Very much so my same mindset on the safety. Safe until on target just makes the most sense on a weapon system as ergonomic as the AR. It feels like they were trying to teach Kalashnikov weapon manipulation? It works, that's fine, I prefer modern techniques that are safer and still plenty effective so long as you have a working thumb.
I understand the desire for a backup sighting system but honestly any of them should do. If you have spare batteries for a durable optic like an Eotech that's enough. If you have irons with an optic that's enough. If you have a second sighting system not using the same mount, like an 45 degree offset red dot, that's enough too.
Ambi bolt locks are something I really like having. I've never had a mistaken manipulation with that because I'm one of those weirdo's that have B.A.D. levers on all my rifles. I primarily use it for locking the bolt back and also use it to drop the bolt, however I 'sweep' my index finger up or down for that effect instead of pushing inwards. I chose to make this a habit years ago when I used to watch InRangeTV and Karl discussed people in competitions negligently discharging rounds down range when they meant to manipulate the lever with an inward squeeze of the finger into the trigger guard. I don't watch InRange anymore but that lesson I kept with me. Ambi mag releases are a waste of time if you have two working hands and aren't a cripple (sorry Brass Facts.)
Appreciate your insights on these elements. It definitely looks like Thunder Ranch would be an awesome place to train. Nothing wrong with learning useful lessons and choosing when something just doesn't vibe with your reality.
I like using B.A.D Levers and I'm gonna get a Griffin MK2 ambi lower entirely because I like it so much. I don't want the rest of the ambi shit on my gun though. Mag release especially. Ambi safety can be tolerable if its a good one and the only one I've found that is somewhat OK is the Radian talon when in the short throw setting. Otherwise I'd rather have a milspec right hand safety. Everything else rubs the knuckle of my trigger finger and my hands are basically normal size.
Even with modernized AKs there are no excuses for it. The Krebs enhanced safety makes it easy to use with your index finger either up or down, meaning switching between the two is right where your index finger rests when you are off the trigger, which is great.
I have a bad lever and I still drop the bolt using my support hand but it’s great for locking the bolt back. I feel that’s where it shines
I’m left eye dominant and right handed. I don’t have iron sights because of that. I watched a video with a guy who had been delta and he pointed out that in combat if an optic goes out it still has a window. Target filling the window will lead to a hit. Combat shooting is not precision shooting.
@@LFDNCme too so I shoot left handed, problem solved
One of my friends is a firearms instructor for the military and LE community, and flat out won't work with anyone who doesn't abide by safety on until on target method. His logic is: if you are moving around a team, behind barricades and under stress, it's imperative to, you know, not ND into your buddy's leg because your chambered rifle snags his radio antenna or whatever. All of my hero friends argue with me about it all the time, that [wiggles finger] "this is my safety", but I am going to keep doing it the Hop way- safety on until on target.
So what does he do for the myriad of handgun scenarios involving the 90% of modern handguns that don’t have a safety and where you are moving and manipulating it?
It’s just an odd double standard in my opinion.
@jimyeats If you're in a legit fight, you should have a rifle. For civilians, pistol should be in the holster or planning on shooting. The holster is the pistols safety.
@@JohnDoe-zs6gj You’re missing my point. I’m not saying you shouldn’t have a rifle if possible. I’m saying that 90% of modern handguns don’t have safeties on them, and lots of training and threat scenarios involve using a pistol. The majority of police encounters involve a pistol and not a rifle, as do the majority of civilian encounters. So is this instructor just LOSING HIS MIND that someone is going through a scenario with a pistol that doesn’t have a manual safety?
My point being; what’s the fundamental difference? Why is it OK to go through an entire training scenario with a pistol without a safety, but it’s totally NOT ok to be in direct control of your AR and keep the safety off while you are actively in an active threat scenario? You aren’t “holstering” your pistol in the middle of a training scenario or active threat. You are just maintaining good finger discipline.
Hops way is the way I was taught in the 60's no military training
I think a further consideration is the swapping of triggers. Mil spec triggers should have a higher average pull weight and are less likely to go off unintentionaly than the reduced pull weight triggers a lot of people like putting into their ARs. An even higher degree of trigger discipline/awareness is required with lighter triggers so the easiest solution for civilian applications would be to just have it on safe at all times unless on target/firing.
900.00 to be told your rifle is wrong. I applaud you for holding onto your own views and applying lessons where they had benefit however, I come here to listen to you ramble like a crazy person is the highlight of the show.
$1280 for a defensive handgun course. I get there's a lot provided, but it still seems crazy to me.
You also have to pay for 3,000 rounds of ammo, your own food and hotel. $900+$1,400+$120 = $2,420 to shoot at Thunder Ranch for a weekend. Plane ticket not included. Ooof
@@almostontimehero5415 oh and take some time off of work probably and use vacation time too so no income during that period of overpaying for 1 or 2 days of being told you're wrong.
@@isaiahmiller9142for that price the ammo and burgers should be provided. I can understand an expensive rifle course because of targets and land and whatever but a handgun course doesnt take up much room unless its a 500 meter stocked artillery Luger handgun course.
out of the 4 who commented, who has been there?
Hop and Clint Smith in the same room. That's the kind of ire this world needs.
Remember, the first rule of gun safety is to have fun.
Goes hand in hand with the 5th safety rule, don't do dumb shit at the range.
Rule #2: if you're going to drink, wear a condom.
1. I prefer your method too, as it's similar to what I learned in the Army. Though in Thunder Ranch's defense, that was when Reagan was in office so they may still be right. That said, I'm pretty sure anyone well trained/practiced on either method will have zero NDs over their lifetime due to those practices.
2. As my NCOs used to say, "One is none; Two is one." That is to say it's always best to have a second option/spare. Saying "my X is bullet proof so I don't need a backup, spare, etc" is just _daring_ Murphy to come out of hide and mess with you in some crazy, unanticipated way.
3. I don't have a rifle with any ambidextrous controls. So even I wouldn't respect my own opinion on them.
“Aim point T2 and a big beefy mount” is what my wife used to say when I took my pants off.
im not sure if thats good or bad, but at least you were getting to the pants off point, alot of ppl in here dont get that far!
Only when you wore the strap on she bought you.
Tfw micro dot
you mean he bought her @@thefrogking481 . lol
@@Pinkskull69420 lol TFW comp m4
I dig the A2 carbine, and the kitty (obviously)
We know who isn't getting a Christmas card from thunder Ranch this year.
Says a lot about you that you're willing to come out and publicly, but kindly, disagree with people who have much more experience (and probably clout) than you do because you believe in your own opinions and experience. So many men aren't stubborn enough. You're a class act and my favorite firearms content creator Hop.
People should remember that disagreeing can be a debate, not an argument
It's okay and, in my opinion, necessary to question things that are related to your safety
idk i think hop has a fair bit of clout. he's certainly not as big as people like garand thumb but
1. that's not who he's opposing
2. his fans (me) are more dedicated than most social media personalities fans.
that being said, your thesis is agreeable, this autistic focus on MY SAFETY DOCTRINE IS 100% CORRECT IF YOU DEVIATE YOU ARE A DANGER / YOUR HYPER DURABLE HOLOGRAPHIC OPTIC IS BAD BECAUSE WHAT IF IT RUNS OUT OF THE SAME BATTERY YOUR LIGHT AND NODS USE AND YOU HAVE 4 OF ON YOUR KIT is gay.
@user-ej4eq5im4r Debating is making arguments. It's a part of the process of debating.
@@BlackDoomsOpinion debating and arguing are different things is my point
@@Schrodingers_kid ar·gu·ment
noun
plural noun: arguments
1.
an exchange of diverging or opposite views, typically a heated or angry one.
"I've had an argument with my father"
2.
a reason or set of reasons given with the aim of persuading others that an action or idea is right or wrong.
"there is a strong argument for submitting a formal appeal"
Hop, surely my local instructor that retired after 10 years with the state police would never steer me wrong, right?
Safety stays on by default and the finger stays out of the trigger guard. Finger goes onto the trigger and thumb snaps down the safety at the same time. Finger comes off the trigger and you can put the safety back on as you remove the finger from the trigger guard or lower the rifle.
Hop, I couldn’t agree more on the safety. I trained with a particular group of guys for about 2.5 years before we had to move. We trained weekly and became very proficient up to live fire shoot house drills in gas masks or night vision. Given that with most modern firearms you can either pull the safety and then the trigger, or the trigger and then the safety, you can engage both at the same time and not worry about the thousandths of a second on which actually came first. There’s no reason other than complacency in my book to ever not engage the safety on/off only when you’re actively shooting. Once you’re used to it and it’s muscle memory, there’s zero issue. And for anyone reading this, if you disagree, ask yourself which group you’d be happier with your daughters or sons go train with in a live fire drill. Then once you realize your argument is weak, go work that safety in some simple up/down drills.
I totally agree with the safety stuff running around with safety off is great way to have an AD.
Yup, the safety is part of the trigger pull is how I was taught.
I’ve been working on making it habit to engage the safety whenever I take my finger out of the trigger guard but it’s not easy for an old fart.
It is amazing, though, how many guys are strongly opposed to this method, wiggling their fingers tHiS iS mY sAfEtY. I'm just a dirty civilian, so when pros like Pat McNamara and guys like him I have learned from trained with say "safety on reloads" and "safety until on target", I'm fucking training that way.
@@KidCorporate it's too easy to get bumped or trip and bust a cap
@@junkmanjam9945Safety during reloads is dumb. It’s not widely applicable. You can’t do that with a lot of guns. Yet no one has an issue with reloading a glock(which has no external safety), or AK(cannot be reloaded while on safe). Think for yourself. Stop appealing to authority.
GET THIS CAT OUT OF MY WORKSPACE I'M TRYING TO DO SAFETY MANIPULATIONS OVER HERE
#1 - Totally agree - if the hammer is cocked, safety on.
#2 - totally agree. I can’t see up close without my glasses.
#3 - I took the left side mag release off my M400, 90 degree safety only but like ambidextrous safety.
I like the GG&G light mount. Just about the best way to run a light on a rifle with an A2 front post.
I like em but I'm a slut for the mossie midnight
Black cats are my favorite, always so affectionate, vocal, and just over all sweet.
I love black cats. Best cat we had as a kid was a black cat.
I agree with Hop , saftey ON at all times until your on target ! and I do like the 45° thumb On at all times, Not braking grip . I'd probably get a minis for mag catch extension , it's so much easier for my finger to find , it's exactly where I need it to be, I don't have to stretch and hunt for it. No bad lever .
"Oh hail no" to one thing you said: Law Enforcement having a "prepped trigger" has resulted in multiple documented cases of innocent people getting shot and killed (one I recall in NYC was merely in the trigger guard where a cop was spooked).
The reason for having the finger off the trigger entirely is specifically because in a chaotic setting with a lllooooooonnnnggg list of possible things to surprise you, you're far more likely to end up shooting in error than you are to react to a baddie with ungodly speed.
I was always taught as a civilian and in training that your safety is on until and unless you're ready to fire, full stop. You don't move with it off, you don't reload with it off, etc.
This is true. Swat and police have so many negligent discharges it's crazy. There are even many cases when there's no threat and they're just moving around a location well after it's been secured and have an ND. Also, a lot of these training schools seems to be more like rock star camps for affluent, adult men to LARP.
Came here to say this, good comment. 🤙🏼
I put off putting BUI on my main rifle for a long time because I had very little real estate with the switches and light and LAM. Eventually ended up tweaking things around and got a folding back sight and fixed front squeezed in there. Many rifles, particularly ones set up for night fighting don't have the space for the classic set of folding BUI, but there's some workarounds like the Leaf sights for DBAL, etc. Never had an issue with needing it before, but good to have the option of course.
BAD levers for left-handed shooters are a cheap and relatively low profile way to get right-side bolt release functionality. After the right hand inserts the mag, the right thumb presses the tip of the BAD lever protruding through the trigger guard and drops the bolt.
Maybe it wasn't designed with this in mind but I've used it like that in some high pressure/timed drills and it works great. Also lower profile than a right-side bolt release so it's much less likely to drop the bolt as it rubs against the shooter's gear.
BAD Lever + Troy ambi mag release is the ultimate lefty combo.
Hop & Brass Facts: Owners and CEOs of Haley Dynamics and Sage Strategic but it isn't complete without Jack Daniel as the RO.
I'm with hop on the safety thing. I've been to a few classes and I've experienced some of these dogmatic instructors. It can be disconcerting because you've been training a certain way for years and then you have an instructor potentially making you feel like an idiot because you don't do things exactly their way immediately.
Hop is a gunsmith cat. (=^ェ^=)
I uploaded the episodes if you wanna watch them
Genuinely wish there was an episode or two more of it, preferably in the old style
It was fun
@@fulltism I was just thinking yesterday how I never watched it. Seeing your comment must be fate.
Based.
Stephen King is finally back for some more tactical roleplaying action
😂😂😂😂😂 this is hysterical. Isn’t King a gun grabber?
Its funny but don't dishonor Hop like that. King is nuttier than squirrel turds.
@@LFDNC Yes, it's no wonder Hop has estranged himself from his father
Stephen King and Sigourney Weaver had a baby.
😆@@elektro3000
Ironic that the dude criticized no back up oron sights as a " just in case" but thinks ambi controls are dumb.
" I'm right handed"
Sure, until you aren't.
Is it a likely scenario? About as likely as getting into a gunfight as a civilian in the first place.
So where do we draw the line for "realistic" vs "necessary"?
If you're that incapacitated that you can't operate your rifle one handed, you're probably not worried about operating the safety and will probably be dead in the next hour.
@@NexusReload That's a theory. Which is a point I am making. You can't definitively say that this isn't realistic
@@mosulmedic7048it's an interesting thought experiment and tbh I think most of this is LARPing. People come up with these elaborate situations cause they're bored or paranoid then form their doctrine to match it. I think hop made some great points, especially with the safety and how most people train. Let's be honest, the two most common scenarios are either a doomsday scenario where society breaks down or the US civil war 2. In a real crisis, you are going to be avoiding people whenever possible or sniping from long distance, not room clearing at the speed of light.
Weak side manipulations and “arm going down theory” is the most cringe thing being taught in tactics today. Most instructors just use that to fill space in a class or have something to teach that makes them look cool and makes them seem more credible.
Reality is if your arm goes down in a fight, it’s game over. You’re either dead in the next few minutes or you probably do the smart thing and run away to assess the wound. Or if you’re really going to stay in the fight, I can promise you’re not going to be worrying about flipping a safety on and off.
On the flip side, optics go down all the time. Most of the time is people being silly and forgetting to swap batteries. Hop is kinda wrong on this one. Seen it happen working with SF units, military, LEO, and all the time with students. It’s really not hard. Most of their builds had plenty of space to run flip ups even if they aren’t mounted in the ideal areas of the rail.
@@kilo0151 People have lost their dominant arms in combat and continued gunfighting.
I treated a few casualties 2017 in Iraq that were hit in the hand/arm and had to swap and manipulate with their off hand. It's ludicrous to insinuate that an injury to the hand is a death sentence. If that were true, the same would be said about any injury.
So this further goes into the " what are you basing this on, and when is it not relevant anymore?" Point.
It's happened before, but isn't a common thing. Conversely, ive never had an optic go out on me in combat. But it is possible
I'm glad the gun community isn't an echo chamber, but i also hate that a decent majority will be harsh just because someone doesn't agree with what they perceive a higher authority (its the internet though).
You also provided great alternative teachers as examples. Pat Mac is a great guy and local to me and have had a few chat at a bar or 2.
Sometimes, information is outdated. Had a guy that worked with me have firearm knowledge just kind of stop in the 90s and would carry a beretta 92 or a few different revolvers in a crossdraw and was weirded out by us new age guys.
Great video Hop. I'm a 62 year old who was taught his technics in 1979, Army training Sir! Last year I attended a 2 day Apple Seed class. Went in with an open mind and had a great time. Learned good shooting skills with all age groups, and got really good History lessons too. I do not like the Hasty Sling technic they taught, but stuck with it both days.
I can appreciate HOP's perspective. I was a Marine Corps weapons instructor (PMI). Based on what Hop shared, I can see his point of view. There are 4 weapon handling/safety rules Marines abide by. The No. 4 rule goes inline with the No. 2 rule: 2. NEVER POINT A WEAPON AT ANYTHING YOU DO NOT INTEND TO SHOOT. 4. KEEP THE WEAPON ON SAFE UNTIL YOU INTEND TO FIRE.
Based on what's ingrained with my own experience as both a Marine and a firearms instructor of Marines. I've pounded that principle into my Marines for years. So, if I am not pointing my weapon at something I have no intention of shooting, my weapon is on safe. It's interesting TR went a different route, considering Clint is also a Marine. However, I am open minded and may explore things. But, those Marine Corps gun safety rules are a lynchpin of my own sense of safe control and manipulation. I may practice what Hop stated TR is training these days. EDIT: I should also add, I was a also Military Police, and we did not train with firearms differently based on being SRT (Special Reaction Team) at least when I was in as I got out in 2004. Things may certainly have changed by now based the SWAT/Police example Hop mentions.
Bro, you won the TFB rifle contest. James is a slimey lawyer.
Why did you say "lawyer" twice?
As Chuck Pressburg will gladly tell anyone: you can outrun your headlights and end up taking a shot that you were in no way justified taking. Having the safety on an extra microsecond won't get you killed but it might keep you from accidentally shooting someone who doesn't need to get shot.
Similar thoughts have been going through my head since seeing that video. I used to use my safety the TR way, "if I'm fighting, I should just keep the safety off and do the Blackhawk Down thing," right up until I saw a vid of Pat Mac doing a shoot house where you could very clearly hear the constant clicking of the safety. Convinced me to look into it, and between him and a Shepdev video on safety use not delaying your first shot time, I now keep the safety on just about all the time.
It also factors into my use of short throw safeties. It doesn't really matter for taking the weapon off safe, but putting it back on is a lot easier to do with my index finger knuckle with a short throw than with the GI on my work piece, where I have a (much less exaggerated) break in my grip.
I keep my safety on when I’m not shooting, but I’m going to start train to turn it on during mag changes. Makes good sense to me.
was once part of the great field exercises of my mom's basement during 2020. Months of staying in the field without a shower, only MRE's and my rifle to keep me company. My Amazon red dot that had thousands of 5 star reviews died in the first week of the exercises. Good thing I had my Magpul plastic backup sight on there right out of the box. Didn't even need to zero it since it was on there from the manufacturer!
If this is you, please go check your iron sights
i agree. my safety stays on until i'm on target and gets immediately flipped back to safe just after the last round gets sent.
i think it's important to do extra when it comes to safety just so you have more safety engrained.
it's better to have.. extra safety steps you can cut down on if that makes sense. the range is where i drill in these practices. so if anything ever does happen, it's already instilled in me to be as safe as possible
if you're all loosey with safety, and shit hits the fan, you're much more likely to hit a friendly when adrenaline is pumping
RamRanch Reference
As a GWOT era know it all, I can definitively say that you are right about the safety. Not every scenario is a felony stop or a 1970s stand off with Hawaiian 5.0, the GWOT taught us that your weapon is on safe until you are ready to fire and back on safe if you are not firing, and that's how you need to live your life....
"Grow the fuck up!" LMFAO!!!😂😂😂 Workspace! HaHa!!!😂🤣😂🤣😂
Thank you Hop. Thunder Ranch is one of the schools in my top 3 list that I want to attend. With any luck I'll be able to go next year some time. God bless! Be safe!
🤙🪖👮🙏🇺🇲
Yes, when you train with other next to you having that safety on as much as possible is a good thing.
I worked at a shooting range from 2002-06 and I absolutely developed a way of doing and saying things that just seemed to work the best for the greatest number of customers. Some people might have been better served with a different approach though. When you have to keep things moving smoothly you just get into your groove and keep doing things that give good results most of the time.
That tiger stripe on the mag looks insanely good.
Duramag has been working on them, I gather that it's part of the anodizing process rather than a paint job. Pretty slick.
But what is the brand of the fsb light mount?
Well said. I appreciate that you did *learn* the stuff but made a conscious decision to not use it in your personal life. Too often see people throw things from classes away without a second thought.
Range kitty is a cute, cuddly little monster.
You get a favorite because I like your stuff, and your void, such a chatty void. Makes me miss mine even more then I already do.
I’m right handed, and ever since getting my first ambi-safety, I started using putting the right/trigger finger-side lever up and forward (as opposed to having it mirror the down/back of the safety on my thumb side). To me this is way more ergonomic, including:
- Easier to flip on by pressing forward with my right index finger than up with my left thumb
- Safer; eg if I’m actuating the safety on with my trigger finger, then by definition it’s also not on the trigger finger
Literally the only excuse I’ve heard “recommended against that” is people saying “because [fill in the blank name] said so once.” Umm… ok. Once you have a legitimate reason based in logic and facts, then maybe I’ll listen. Otherwise try to think for yourself.
I'm going to push back on this because the exact opposite actually happened to me.
I'm left-handed, and I kept all my rifles right-handed because "there's no left-handed guns in the jungle." I trained thousands of dry and live reps using the trigger finger sweep you mentioned. I thought it was fine.
Until I was in a match, shooting from an awkward position, moved a little too fast, and tried to sweep backwards to put the rifle on safe. My trigger finger curled in and pulled the trigger before the safety came on. I got hit with a match DQ, my first in four years of shooting matches.
Immediately when I got home, I swapped for a left-handed safety. There's no reason I should be pulling my trigger finger backwards to put the gun on safe when I also pull my trigger finger backwards to fire the gun. Things might be different for you. Just saying 😊
@@Caligari87 When is a left-handed safety on a right-handed rifle loot message going to be added to UaS?
Even the manufacture will tell you ambi safety is stew pud.
100% with you on safety usage. I think it was Pannone who advocated for engaging the safety as soon as the cheek comes off the stock because that allows for consistency in usage of the safety. If one tries to remember to place the safety on at some arbitrary later time (e.g. before moving), the loss of consistency means one is more likely to fail to engage the safety. (Yes, I know the gun won't go on safe if there's a malfunction which results in the hammer being forward.)
17:02 It's funny. Black cats seem to be the friendliest and most personable. And talkers. I'm not a big cat guy, but black cats are usually cool.
My wifes sure is. Also he kinda needs rough housing like a dog to be happy.
Good stuff Hop! There isn't "A way". Learn from others, be appreciative of the knowledge and experience they have and their ability to relay it to you well, keep what is useful to you and keep learning.
The iron sights thing .... why not just show up with a C-note? I've done a lot of training for, and with LE, and yea, those MFs never maintain their gear, their weapons are always dirty, and the optics batteries are always dead. At the same time, a lot of the military world involves trying to get 90iq recruits who have never been around firearms to not shoot themselves or each other. These groups all tend to have a very specific culture when it comes to firearms, that are often at odds with what most people would consider normal.
I think that's probably what TR is combating. Much less dudes who compete or take their setups so seriously they meticulously minmax their rifles 5000 times a year. I agree with Hop on all points but him having to make this video is evidence that cherry picking instructor teachings is still important in 2024.
Not for nothing, but I’ve broken far more back up irons than Eotech’s and Aimpoints in a decade of military service, so I’m with you. I understand the applications are completely different. In terms of pure reliability though, I trust my modern Eotech more than back irons. But also we’re largely talking about something additionally bolted to the top of the receiver/rail and not integrated like a A2 style handle and front post.
As soon as James paid his way to victory, I was waiting for this video. “Iron deez nutz”
#BigCheaterJamesReeves
Iron sights are a must. Personally and professionally I have seen and experienced broken optics,mounts, dead batteries, out of zero optics and all other manner of failures.
Safety- on while moving or w a hot rifle unless actively engaging targets.
Ambitious, exotic, bang-blinged out rifles just add weight and more points of failures.
Keep a business rifle simple- sling, light, good optics.
- 30 yrs in LE and all the FI stuff etc.
The number of negligent discharge injuries/deaths in the military, particularly in combat zones is insanely high and we will never know the true extant of it as the military goes to great lengths to hide it, but it is very high.
That’s an interesting point. It’s backed up by everyone who has tried to change a changed habit. If the habit is turning the safety on/off, it is done automatically.
Where I’m going with that is I assume you advocate for turning on the safety.
Military avoids that for the most part by just never handing out ammo (live or otherwise) if they don't absolutely have to.
Im here to see where this goes, because I'm of the opinion that its very hard to rectify a training deficit with extra steps.
Strangly the Air force has the least amount of negligent discharges and we keep our weapons in the hottest configuration of all the branches. One in the pipe at all times with safety on is the standard resting position for us while deployed. I'm Rescue Helicopter Maintenance and we were like that my entire time in Somalia.
This is why I don't trust guns with just a trigger dingus, I had a beautifully shooting PDP, EDC'd it 3 times
The concept of always putting the safety on when off target is similar to the concept of the Swiss Cheese model. It's one extra barrier in addition to the basic rules of gun safety in between you and an ND/AD. Even if one or two layers of that safety net are "breached" due to negligence, necessity, or the nature of the engagement, there are more layers to catch you before that ND/AD occurs. Safety on while not on target is a rule I enforce when shooting with my buddies because moving and shooting can be unpredictable. People trip or slip sometimes and if they go down with their finger on the trigger, safety on saves the day.
1st one is surprising. Many millennials that I know that are into guns use the On Target, On Trigger, Off Target, Off Trigger method and use the safety when they aren't planning on shooting. In a team training environment, having to shoot around others with live ammo, I get using the safety
At least you got to take a class that caused you to think critically about your approach to your rifle set up and your techniques for manipulating it. You were able to come away with a better understanding of why you do the things you do or why you might want to try doing it a different way.
This last weekend I took a class and paid for someone to give me about five minutes of instruction, and then it was an absolute free-for-all cluster fuck after that. So that was fun.
I'm pretty wary of most "training" classes because it's very common for the instructor to spend the entire time helping the one guy who needs the most help (i.e. is actively dangerous to everyone else in the class) so you're just kinda doing drills by yourself. But also you paid a lot of money to be there and it's loud as hell. :)
@@Hoplopfheil I've been overwhelmingly lucky with other classes I've gone to. Most of the time a competent instructor will have "RSOs" that can give more attention to students that need more help. That way they can be freed up to keep the rest of the class moving. This last weekend I took a class that was just that way and it was fantastic. Didn't hurt that it was also cheaper than the debacle class.
That cat be yelling.
Completely agree with safety manipulation. Ive had superiors a/d in a stack, in a low ready adjacent circumstance.
Cant wait for the h&r review
I look forward to Hop _somehow_ finding a way to stick a D2 on there.
@@Statusinator just needs a quad rail
Funny now that I think of it, when I was in the (Canadian) army I don’t remember them ever teaching us anything that specific when it comes to safety manipulation, but I always did on target off safe, off target on safe intuitively anyway because it’s just so quick and easy. It’s possible I just don’t remember being taught that, it’s been a while.
That little one was quite the talker!
My team had early Gen 552 Eotechs. We had about a 90% failure rate. Due to broken battery terminals, switch failures, battery drain, and that’s not mentioning the wonderful phenomenon known as lens delamination.
I bought a new Gen EXP?? . Fired enough rounds to zero it and put it away. I didn’t have the opportunity to use it again until I did an op 2 months later. Powered it up. No low battery warning. Finished the op and went to turn it off and had no reticle. Tuned out there was some sort short in the switch. It was repaired under warranty. But after that experience I had zero confidence in it and sold it. Now my other sights which are H1’s and T1’s have given me zero issues.
Car at 17:01
What is that, a Jaguar? Hellcat?
Hop is the best gun-related content out there. "That's just the kind of guy I am this week." No, Hop. That's just the kind of guy you are.
Hop made this because his rifle lost in the "whose best" at Thunder Ranch lmfao
Still love this, you, and your content, Hop.
You're the KING!
Always love a sunstroke induced rambling rant vid from Hop, more please.
Are range cats a thing at Thunder Ranch? If so, getting my wife to come with me to a course will be a much easier sell.
They have tons of excellent kitties on the ranch.
@@Hoplopfheil hell yeah
I totally agree with you about the safety and I've always done it your way even as an Army infantryman. I was never an "operator" so maybe then I could have been talked into changing. As a civilian patriot and part-time firearms instructor, I've never changed from my Army days. I also agree that a rifleman's manual of arms with the safety lever can legitimately be role-based.
I both agree and disagree with you on several of your comments; and I guess that's the point of this video. Nothing is perfect, once it is we can't get better.
I agree with the safety operation; thats a training component and if you train to disengage the safety when coming up it's a non issue. Irons are a must. Imagine you're going somewhere without any extra supplies and that supposedly indestructible red dot or holographic sight dies - not due to battery failure or getting hit; just stops working. Having seen such tough brands as aim point and eotech items stop working; you should have irons if that rifle is serious. All the other stuff is personnal preference.
Old #7 Jack Daniel(s) is never wrong
Hop - I agree totally with the way you approach the safety on the AR. Ambi safety's work because many people can't manipulate the left side safety both ways..