I worked at the Budd Company from 1981 to 1986. The Amfleet 2 final assembly. I am proud to see the cars I worked on 40 plus years ago in person from time to time.
The one really not so good design feature on them is the inboard bearing, commuter-style trucks on them. They just can't provide a smooth enough ride above 80 mph or so. They are durable and reliable, though.
That must be a great feeling to have been a part of that. Thank you for your hard work, coming from someone who has spent a lot of time riding on these cars!
Am I the only one who feels that the small Amfleet 1 windows are more than adequate size, and give the cars a private cozy feel, as well as less glaring sun coming from the top part of the window (which you can’t even use to see out of anyway because it’s way above eye level)? This is coming from someone who loves looking out the window during the entire ride, and loves large windows in buildings
I completely agree. The Amfleets definitely provide a cozier ride. When I'm returning home after a long day, I find the Amfleets to be much more relaxing than the bright lighting on the Acelas. Both have their benefits though.
Budd still had tooling from building the Metroliners, to build the Amfleet. Want small windows? The Pullman Standard and Bombardier built Comet series rolling stock at NJ Transit, MBTA, MTA, Connecticut DOT, SEPTA and Amtrak's intercity versions, the Horizon fleet.
One configuration that I remember and that I didn't see in your brief sketch was the business class cars between DC and BOS just before the Acela was introduced. I don't clearly remember the exact configuration (it was 30 years ago), but I distinctly remember very nice "Captain's Chairs" along one side of business class with pairs of comfortable seats on the opposite side. There was a Cafe counter at one end of the section (perhaps the other end was a food service car?). In the 1990s, before the NE corridor was electrified, I rode the trains that became the "New England Regional" between Boston and NYC twice a week. The northbound ride from NYC to BOS at the end of a long work week in Manhattan was a joy to relax in for my trip home. I rode the same train each week, and the crew was always the same. By my 2nd or 3rd trip the business class attendant behind the counter knew me and knew that I always started my homeward ride with a glass of red wine and two bags of almonds. As I boarded the car, he would smile and ask "the regular?" I would take my seat (always a captain's chair) and he would bring my wine and nuts. I loved how the dingy green walls of the platform would start to slide by with no muss, no rude orders to "fasten my seatbelt and make sure the tray table is in its upright and locked position", and -- most of all -- NO STRESS. It was a joy compared to a shuttle from La Guardia. I love riding Amtrak, and I particularly enjoy the NE Regional between BOS and DC. I much prefer the roomier seats, more comfortable ride, and more accessible food options from the Cafe car (in comparison to Acela). I don't mind the extra time.
Yes, the captains chairs you are referring to were in their Parlor Cars on the Metroliner train sets. I have no idea if they carried that concept over to the AmFleets as well. Maybe someone will know and leave a comment. I also rode many times prior to electrification. The train would change to a diesel engine in New Haven. I have quite fond memories of that as well. Thank you for sharing all of this!
Back in the early 80’d my wife and I rode the Crescent from Philadelphia to New Orleans in Heritage cars and back but in the return trip took a side trip to Newport News out of DC in Amfleet cars and they really rode better than the Heritage cars
I recall having encountered one of the Parlor Cars (?) out of Boston in the late naughties. One end was coach, the other business, with a snack bar in-between. I usually took the Acela but it was fully booked. IMO, the Amfleet business class experience wasn't much better than coach (you got free soda and coffee, yay?).
@@alexhajnal107 Indeed, that's the car I remember. I agree about the Amfleet business class experience, particularly on the NE Regional where the most significant difference is that it's at one end of the train so that there's minimal aisle traffic. Some of the Amfleet cars have a cafe at one end, business on the other, and are also at the end of the train (these are run on the DownEaster, the Ethan Allen, and the Vermonter, among others). Those have bigger seats with more legroom, and there's a row of single seats along one side. The price of the upgrade on the latter is low enough that it's worth it, at least for me.
@@thomasstambaugh5181 From what I recall, the business class seats on that train were all 2+2, the same as coach AFAIK. I think the seat pitch was about the same (perhaps exactly the same) as well. Not worth the extra (were I paying for it).
As a former truck driver in Philly, I understand the need for smaller windows. They teach them young in Philly. Rocks, batteries and even bricks. Was tough to drive in the city without AC and the windows almost all the way up, so I wouldn’t be hit.
I remember growing up in Maryland, and around summer of 71, my dad worked in Baltimore, and he would occasionally take me into the city, and I had seen the old B&O trains parked at Camden station. They were the most beautiful things ever. Big windows, blue&grey stripes, stainless steel old Budd washboard cars. Real nostalgic. Too bad they were no longer in service.
@@RailWeekly Heh -- I grew up in Rockville and Wheaton (Glenmont). My father was lifelong railfan and the Southern was his favorite by far. I grew up in a house stocked with Southern diner china that he bought, and I think of him whenever I ride today's Crescent (even though it's nothing like it's namesake).
@@thomasstambaugh5181 Ha! Small world! My grandparents lived very close to Wheaton. And we too had plenty of Southern Railway china (and B&O of course).
Totally! There was just a piece on the Toronto local news this week I believe. They are worried they might have to start cutting routes if they don’t replace equipment pretty soon. I keep thinking I want to ride the Canadian while I still can with the Park cars.
1955. Blt by Budd for CPs Canadian and Ocean. Not the 1940s. Stainless steel carbodies are indestructible and VIA has converted all these to HEP. With new mechanicals and interiors, there's no reason they can't last forever.
The transcontinental equipent inherited from CP rail was from 1954/1955, and rebuilt with HEP in early 1990s after the great cuts. (they are called HEP1). After the great cuts 1o 1989 VIA also got rid of all of the ex CN fleet and by the mid/late 1990s, VIA started to need more cars so went to Amtrakl to get some of their "heritage" fleet that was let to rot for many many years. VIA handed them off to CAD or other for a rebuild and put then in corridor service as HEP2 (geerally have smaller windows as indication and an interior that tried to emulate the LRC) ) Some of those were from 1945 and younger. @@Greatdome99
@RailWeekly if you book a trip on Via between Halifax and Montreal in a cabin for 1, then you're guaranteed to get a cabin in the Budd car. You can also book a trip in a berth if you book early enough. The dining car, however, will be a modern Renaissance car, as will be most of the cabins for two. To experience dining in a park car, book a trip between Toronto and Vancouver. Those trains are entirely Budd cars.
There were variants of these cars that were operated by commuter railroads. The Budd M-1 self-powered cars of 1968 were by far my favorites. I love the small windows of the Amtrak cars.
The reason for the small windows in the Amfleet 1 cars is quite simple in fact you even mentioned it ... "Metroshell". In the early 1970's after the Arab oil embargo Amtrak needed new cars and they needed them STAT. Since they wanted a stainless steel car the first choice was Budd. At first Amtrak wanted a traditional square sided car with sliding doors and high capacity seating. Budd said it would take months to design such a car (no CAD back then) and then two years or more to manufacture them. Amtrak asked can't we get them quicker? Budd replied no .... but we still have the jigs at the Red Lion plant setup for the Metroliner production run. Here's what we'll do, we'll cut off the engineers cab, remove the pantograph and all the un-needed electrical gear/traction motors and have those cars to you in no time. Since they're basically non powered Metroliner cars we'll call them Metroshell cars. Take a look at your video with the Metroliner cab car and the Amfleet cars behind it. Notice how they all look the same? The initial order was for 57 Metroshell cars which with add-on options ended up being 492 cars. I grew up in the Washington DC area and as a teenage railfan attended both the local RRE and NRHS meetings. There I ran into several Amtrak people who were also railfans. They told us of plans for Amdomes, Amdiners and Amsleepers. The Amdomes never came to be as Amtrak decided to go with their version of the ATSF high level cars for the western trains. The Amdiners and Amsleepers later morphed into the Viewliner series with a more conventional square body shell. As for window size the main driver for larger windows is off all things stretchers. It's impossible to get a stretcher out an Amfleet I window. Current FRA/NTSB rules require a window big enough for a stretcher with a person in it to fit through a removed window. I'm not sure when this rule came about but the Amfleet II cars came with larger windows.
Wow! This is some fantastic information! Thank you so much for taking the time to type this out. I had never considered the stretcher thing, that makes a lot of sense. An AmSleeper would have been a fascinating thing to see.
@@RailWeekly Actually there was an Amsleeper! Amtrak used to run an overnight train between Washington and Cincinnati called the Shenandoah. At the time (mid 70's) the ICC required Amtrak to provide some type of sleeping accommodation. Amtrak didn't have enough Budd 10-6's converted to HEP so it created the "Amsleeper". Two prototype Superliner roomettes were wedged into one end of an Amfleet I car. If you will remember some Amfleet I cars were delivered in a long distance seating arrangement with dressing rooms at one end. The two roomettes were installed just ahead of the two dressing rooms. The train usually ran with three cars, an Amcoach, an Amdinette and the Amcoach/sleeper car. I did ride this train back in 1979 just before it was discontinued but both rooms were booked so I got the mileage in coach. Both cars numbered 22800 and 22801 had the roomette rooms removed when the train was discontinued in October 1979. BTW - I worked for Amtrak from 1977 until 1996.
Makes sense. Years ago I read something with the "like an airplane" explanation which I believed and just thought was stupid. It was probably made up by the Amtrak PR department.
If it ain't broken, don't fix it! 😊 I've seen these things run from coast to coast mixed in with super liners or trotting along at very high speed up and down the north east corridor. Also I once read an article in an old publication of trains magazine that said the windows were sized down and elongated in the new 85' Budd Amfleet design for needed overhead storage space to accommodate commuters and travelers carry on baggage and coats. During prototype testing it was determined that the view once seated was not compromised. Hope this helps.😊
I just love silver/ metallic colors on transportation stuff like this, just like an old song lyric : “fly the ocean in a silver plane” it feels beautiful and nostalgic❤ I also remember back then I had a train toy in the shape of Amtrak❤
That’s another great consideration! That’s the answer I received when I asked why Metra and the C&NW used to make their commuter car windows green. Haha
4:50The Japanese Shinkansen (introduced in the early 60s) certainly seemed to be designed to be as much like an airliner as possible, with small square windows and seating all facing the same way
These cars are beautiful to look at, great to ride in, and considering how old they are and the performance they offer, are some of the best in the world. And I'm European :)
It depends on which ones. The SNCF's Corails are great although boring. The older generations were better because of if the interior. Overall, they do a better job in general but that's because the whole Continent uses rail unlike us... Sad.
Loco-hauled is terrible for local trains. Use EMUs. America just prefers to have a railroad that's lacking behind Uzbekistan and what not, for nothing but the sake of nostalgia. That's how a nation fails.
5:30 Efficiency of the AC system can be a reason, for America being a country with high temperatures, smaller windows would mean lesser window area heated by the sun and thus the AC can be more efficient
I'm pretty sure Budd based the Amfleets on the Metroliner because the last Metroliner EMUs had only been constructed about five years previously, so Budd still had the tooling to build the body shells (this "Metro Shell" you speak of). This would provide Budd with the fast turn-around that Amtrak needed for new intercity passenger cars since they themselves were based on existing intercity EMUs without having to convert existing commuter car designs (window placement and interior fittings) to fit the criteria. It was more for speed of construction and convenience that they used the Metroliner shell.
Absolutely! Time was certainly of the essence. They went from planning to reality in less than 3 years. I can't imagine any of Amtrak's new train sets will come online nearly that fast now! Look at the new Acelas for instance!
Also, the new generation of lounges should have dedicated space specifically for crew. Its incredibly frustrating to have half the tables in the lounges of most long distance trains taken up by crew in the East
Yes, I have experienced that myself as well (crew taking up lounge space). Some of those Amfleet II lounges have that extra crew space though. Not sure if that’s what it was meant for, or if those are just old phone booths? I have not seen the interior of a Venture Car lounge yet, so do not know if they have crew space.
@@RailWeeklyin the train crews defense; there isn’t really anywhere else to go on most intercity trains! We aren’t able to sit in revenue seats; since that wouldn’t be fair to paying passengers; and being in the locomotive might be fun; but we wouldn’t be in the body of the train to help passengers more quickly if they have questions, problems or need assistance. Hopefully they’ll come up with something!
@@TrinityCourtStudios certainly see what you’re saying, but my main issue is that you’ll have five different members of the on board staff and crew sitting in five different booths taking up space where no one else can sit. Usually the conductors and ACs will have a booth each with their paperwork spread out. They could consolidate and try and take up minimal space. It’s very uncomfortable for passengers to be caring carriers full of food and drinks back to their seat because an on board staff member on their break is laying there with headphones on and their phone taking up a booth for themselves.
At the time, railroad people told me it was to look more like airplane windows. I would suspect the body design was for the same reason. Remember this was around the time of the Turbo trains and they wanted the trains to look more modern. They were a good design and held up. When you are in the cars, the window size isn't a big deal. They operated in the Northeast where clearances were a problem at the time.
Oh yes! The United Aircraft Turbo trains. I have a little footage of those that I am hoping to use in the future. There were also the Rohr Turboliners that are now languishing in a yard in New Jersey.
Amtrak attendant here, with a particular fondness for the Amfleet cars! My second favorite equipment after the Heritage fleet. Working single level consists are much more desirable than Superliner(up & down stairs all day). Amfleet cars were originally issued with funky psychedelic purple & orange paisley seats & wall paper(a giant floor to ceiling wall across from the Amcafe!) Unfortunately the new Venture cars lack the comfort & atmosphere of Amfleet.
Yea! Amfleet had those groovy interiors when I first started riding. My first ever sleeping car ride was on the auto train on old heritage sleepers and the full length dome dining cars. Those really were the best.
The third explanation for the small windows is likely the reason. I remember riding a train with Superliner cars in the late 80s, and they asked us to close the curtains rolling out of the station because of kids throwing rocks.
I think the vandalism hypothesis of the small windows makes sense. But also the overhead luggage racks are pretty ample and start immediately above the windows so they may have sacrificed window height for increased luggage space. Other thoughts of mine are the small windows allow more insulation in the walls, and less overheating or over brightness inside on the sunny side. This keeps the interior a comfortable light level whether some travelers are sightseeing or sleeping. If you’re sitting next to the windows the height doesn’t affect your view of the passing scenery as much as I thought it would when I first boarded one of the trains.
The small windows aren't actually an issue. You can see out them perfectly. And the best part is that the smaller window reduce the sun glare that is terrible on trains with big windows.
Oh yea! I don’t really mind them at all. Although I will say that it’s a very different experience riding on Acela with those much larger windows. But you’re right, it can get bright!
@@RailWeekly Based on everything I've read, "self-propelled" is not exactly an accurate way to describe those things. "Seldom-powered" is a better description. I remember seeing at least one sitting around at the old Budd Red Lion plant until the 1990s, shortly before it was torn down.
At the same time (in 1975) France and SNCF received the first "Corail" cars (Coral) resulting from the merger of french words "Confort" et "rail" (Comfort+ track), still in service today, although the majority had been scrapped. They were suitable for 160 and 200kph and could circulate in the majority of the Europe. Equivalents exist in Germany, Switzerland, etc.
We used to take the Metroliner all the time when I was a child. At the age, I thought they were floating because they were designed perfectly hid the wheels on the higher platforms. xD As for the windows, while I do think it is probably a mixture of one of those options - jet-age style, for sure - Amtrak might just have liked the Metroliner look, windows and all. Amfleets are the only rolling stock in their fleet that is near-identical to its predecessor. Not even the Superliners can claim that badge.
Thank you so much! I tried to find them but I was unable. I remember the dinette and lounge setups. I never personally rode in one of the club cars though. If anyone else has any info on this, some links would be appreciated!
Why are the windows so small? Look at what they replaced and what other trains were being built at the time. GE Silverliners/Arrows. Budd Metropolitan and Cosmopolitan. They all had small windows. They complimented the existing fleet of the LIRR and what became Metro North, for example. It was the style of the time.
The reason for small windows was to compete with airlines and the original Metroliners were called also "Ground Shuttle". But in addition to that, the very style of small windows was not new with the Metroliners. Small windows were first used 10 years before on 6 (six) self propeled electric units built for Pennsylvania Railroad in 1958. Those electric units were originally called the "Pioneers". When in 1963 more electric MUs were coming to Philadelphia area, they were called "Silverliner II", to keep it simple the railroad (PRR), renamed the original six "Pioneer" MUs:"Silverliner I", later in the decade (1968) "Silverliner III" cars came to Philly area and at the same time "Jersey Arrow I" to New Jersey DOT. All of these MUs followed that style with small windows. This is what was in vouge then. Last of the small windowed electric commuter MUs were "Jersey Arrow II" for New Jersey area, and at the same time "Silverliner IV" cars for Philly area in the middle of 1970s. Latest of that style are "Jersey Arrow III" built in 1978-1980 time period for New York-New Jersey metropolitan area.
You are very correct. The small windows are very noticeable on a lot of that older commuter equipment. NJ transit just posted this week that the replacements for a lot of those Arrow cars will start being delivered later this year!
@RailWeekly Technically, in terms of train you already have it (the Acela 2 can go at 360kph, even the Acela 1 could go fast) but it is the infrastructure that is not keeping up
TL;DR: I agree with the window theories. This is a more obscure suggestion but before the time of the Metroliners the previous PRR EMU fleet at higher speeds would suffer their windows being ripped out due to pressure differences. Window technology like you said wasn’t as good as it is now so it may have been safer and cheaper to keep the windows small.
The last explanation for the smaller windows is the correct one. There was a concern that with closing speeds between Metroliner trains exceeding 300 mph, larger windows could be sucked out of the car bodies. As such, Budd designed the windows to be smaller to prevent this from happening. The Amfleet I's were simply built off of the Metroliner plan, which was a wider, more luxurious car design.
I say those three reasons for the windows design to be smaller do make sense, however, the amfleets in terms of compatibility have been pair with heritage units and the horizon fleets and rarely the bi level cars but only linked through the lower level
Yes indeed! As long as they had upgraded the heritage car to be HEP ready, then the Amfleets could run on any train. They used heritage dining and baggage cars for many years on the east coast overnight trains.
1- Stainless Steel is not "lightweight". (outside the USA). But in the USA, the "made in USA" has basically required stuff made of steel to meet the criteria, so heavy, slow trains - FRA finally agreed to allow aluminium shells again in 2018. (the "strenght" aspect ended up being bogus after a number of accidents showed Amfleet cars wrapped around a telephone pole whereas in Europe, aluminium trains remained whole during derailment). 2- The small windows were inherited from Metroliners and definitely due to rock throwing. 3- Amtrak had to convert its "heritage" to HEP because when it bought new locomotives, they didnt have steam generators. And it allowed mixing of heritage sleeper and dining cars with Amfleet coaches on trains such as the Montréaler. (Superliners can't go to New York City so Amtra was stuck with heritage sleeping cars for a long time until the Viewliner cars). Amfleet 2 has larger windows (within the constraints of curved body) because they travel mostly oustide the NE corridor. They also have old style manual doors vs automatci doors for high level platforms on Amfleet 1 (but manual stairwell deployment). Makes sense since Amfleet II make fewer stops and don't need to have people get on/off all at same time and often patforms are too short don't allow all doors on train to open. The Airo trains are just normal siemens venture cars. nothing new. What is new is that they will have permanently coupled coach car attached to the diesel loco with half of it loaded with batteries and electrical equipment to drive the bogie motors directly instead of the diesel generator. One problem with the FRA rules is that once a modern train has been downgraded to meet FRA standards, it costs too much to bring an updated model and redo all the changes and qualification work so that one model gets re-used for as long as they can.
This is some great info! Thank you so much for taking the time. The Amfleets were definitely considered “lightweight” compared to a lot of the older cars which were actually know as “heavyweight” cars. They had 6 axels and thick steel plating. I got the chance to ride one on the Corridor once (the Dover Harbor) and you can really feel the difference in the ride quality, especially on turnouts.
The windows are small because the car bodies are of a monocoque construction design. Site down the outside of an Amtrak Amfleet car, notice how the car body curves upwards at the middle of the car. When fully loaded with passenger and their belonging that upwards curve is smaller. The car body carries the weight of the interior furnishing and the passengers aboard them. Legacy passenger cars were boxes bolted to the deck of a flatcar that did not flex when loaded.
I was told years ago it was to make the windows smaller targets for rock throwers as these cars would be traveling through the cities of the NE corridor.
Although not operated by Amtrak, the related SPV2000s deserve a mention. Also built in the Metroshell shape, they were self-propelled Diesel Multiple Units that Budd built as a successor to the classic RDC. Only bought by two NYC area commuter fleets, they proved to be reliability bombs and old RDCs often substituted. Soon after their engines were removed to turn them into plain locomotive hauled coaches.
Yea, someone else mentioned those as well! I’m aware of them, but I know very little about them! Thinking of doing an episode on Budd RDCs… those might be a good thing to include!
I suspect that the Metroliner window design came from the aesthetic tastes of the designers and the agency staff that chose them. Remember that the Amfleet brought in Lexan windows, which reflect stones and other debris, rather than shatter like traditional glass. The combination of Lexan windows and synthetic rubber weatherstripping makes an Amfleet car a cozy place during the coldest winter nights.
The British Mark 1 cars have curved sides and large windows with flat glass. There is a transom ie a 3ft lower portion and 1ft upper portion with sliding ventilators.
Technically speaking, I think that Amtrak did take on a few heavyweight coaches such as PRR P70s for a short time when they first started up. Before they could start moving equipment around between predecessor railroads, some P70s were used in NEC service, simply because Penn Central (and PRR before them) couldn't afford replacements.
Absolutely. Amtrak definitely cherry-picked the best and newest equipment from each predecessor railroad for their day-one operations. It definitely became a mess when equipment started moving off their "home roads" and maintenance crews in separate parts of the country weren't familiar with how different equipment operated. Amfleet went a long way towards standardizing maintenance.
I've also heard the rocks theory about the small windows. Pretty interesting that that was such a problem in the latter half of the 20th Century but you never hear about it now. I wonder how / why that changed
It definitely has decreased a lot. But that accident that happened in Philly (Frankford Junction) was attributed to rocks being thrown at a train and thus distracting the engineer. It’s an age old problem I’m afraid.
oooh yeah that's the big notorious one, just listened to a 'Well There's your Problem' on it. Pretty sure the new Siemens cars have bigger windows which I'm excited for@@RailWeekly
The Amfleets were based on the Metroliner because no one was building new Passenger Cars for the North American market, but the Budd company still had the tooling for the Metroliner. The windows are the size they are because that was the size of the windows on the Metroliners.
You are very correct, the Mertoliners were absolutely the best choice for something off-the-shelf. But Pullman Standard was still in business at this time building passenger cars too. In fact, they built the first order of Superliners after this. I explored it a little more in this video…. ruclips.net/video/8jM84OmfCC0/видео.htmlsi=BiBKFhhmjMqjYnzL
That could absolutely be part of the reasoning as well! Electric Air conditioning on trains was still relatively new at the time. The steam heated cars would have steam injector air conditioners. These were some of the first cars to have electric compressor air conditioners.
@@RailWeekly certainly, here in Israel, you see windows get bigger as the Air-Cooling Units get more powerful... from the oldest modified Chrysler models to the newest Siemens on the Jerusalem Express, the difference is very clear...
These cars will eventually end up in the usual hands like museums, etc., but I'm sure some private individuals will love to own one of them. Almost like the train version of the Airstream RV's.
Last week I was on the train from Boston to NYC which had these cars with small windows. What a terrible ride! Lots of annoying mechanical noises crappy doors in some cars. They definitely needed to be replaced a long time ago, like 20 years ago or so.
Although these are great cars, I have had similar experiences. On one cold day on the corridor last month, the end door kept opening on every curve, blasting cold air into the car. I wore my coat the whole 3 hour ride! haha
re the window size - Glancing at the Metroliner wiki - in the 60s the federal govt was working with PRR on the car design. The feds wanted a 160mph capability to beat the Shinkansen. PRR wanted a 125mph design. The feds won, and they were over engineered to 160mph with design tradeoffs. Note that Amfleet II cars have larger windows than Amfleet 1 so the size used for Metroliner/Amfleet 1 wasn't required for the curved body or chassis. My guess is the smaller windows were a compensation for the 160mph design speed not a rock throwing guard. Also noted in the wiki is in tests and early runs Metroliners sucked windows off older trains they passed on adjacent tracks.
Apparently they are having some of the same window issues with the new Acelas as well. Looks like some old issues are still just as hard to solve today.
National Railroad Hall of Fame website has taped video with Paul Reistrup, President if Amtrak, explaining the rationale behind his decision to buy the cars and why the fleet size was an odd number. Price per car was cheap looking back from now. Small windows, adopted by non-Amtrak commuter cars built around the same time, was because of line side rock throwers.
US railroading always surprises me. Not like I had a solid grasp on what numbers to expect, but just 600 of those? I'd have expected possibly another zero at the end of that ...
Passenger train travel just is not as much of a thing here. The country is just too large and spread out, and the (lack of) demand can't justify the "more serious" investment.
It just goes to show you, 600 seems like a shockingly large number to me as an American. Passenger rail is gaining a lot of popularity here though. Maybe we will have thousands of the new cars. 🤞🏻
I meant they’re Budd’s so the solution is to treat them like the B-52 and keep them in eternal service. Put them on low traffic lines… also build more lines. With maintenance they can and will outlive us all.
Hopefully they do keep a good bit of them in operation... especially if they are planning to add new routes and frequencies. They are going to need all the equipment they can get!
The few things wrong with the coaches were the vestibules and clogged drains on the air conditioners. In winter, snow and ice would infiltrate the vestibules and sometimes the coaches. In summer, the AC's could start leaking from the ceiling.
If the reason is the circular shape of the Amfleets, how come the windows on Viewliners, Superliners and Horizons are also relatively small? If the reason is the airplane-style design, how come the Heritage cars, too, have small windows (at least in comparison with European trains)? Therefore, the theory of stone-throwers being the reason for small windows seems most realistic of all three. First, it was seemingly unique to North America, and, secondly, it pre-dated Amtrak.
Well I don't know enough to say with any certainty, but on the Viewliners and Superliners, I would assume the smaller windows would be needed because there are two rows! They are definitely larger than Amfleet windows though. Same with most heritage cars I have ridden on. I rode in four different historic cars on Amtrak last year, and the windows were absolutely larger. That's certainly not the case with ALL pre-Amtrak cars. The Slumber Coaches are a good example of tiny windows...
@@RailWeekly, on Amfleet II the windows are the same size as those on Superliners as well as the main (lower) windows on Viewliners. As for two rows, this feature is unique to Viewliners, though Superliner sightseeing lounges have something similar (but those lounges have absolutely large windows in spite of that). And the rest of the Superliner fleet don’t have double row of windows. I’m not familiar with all Heritage fleets, but the sleepers that were used on the Three Rivers from 1999 to 2001, and later as crew dorms on all single-level trains, their windows are even smaller than on Amfleet II. And the Hi-Levels inherited from Santa Fe have windows very similar to those on Superliners and Amfleet II. But all of those windows (except, perhaps, the sightseeing lounges on Superliner trains) are smaller than those on European trains.
@@abenm613Yes exactly, Amtrak was running some slumber coaches on the Three Rivers for a while. Those were the ones I was referring to. Very small windows on those. I'll be doing some filming in Europe this spring. I'll definitely be paying close attention to the windows now!
@@RailWeekly, the cars used on the Three Rivers in 1999-2001 were not slumbercoaches; they were full-fledged sleepers, with single-occupancy roomettes and double-occupancy bedrooms.
I took a ride on the Pacific Coastliner newer cars one direction, then took a ride in a traditional AmFleet the other direction. The AmFleet was SO MUCH better!
I love the Amfleet cars. Going to be a sad day when they are no longer running on the Vermonter and Ethan Allen Express. Something about a shiny clean car in the sun is always nice to see. Same with American's unpainted metal with the stripes. Now its a less interesting paint job
I think the windows are that small, because Budd just converted the carbody of the Metroliner EMUs to become passenger cars in an as cheap as possible way = without changing anything that doesen´t need to be changed.
You’re absolutely right. Just as someone else mentioned, time was of the essence when acquiring these cars. Modifications would have required additional time and testing.
It remains to be seen if any heritage railways take these. A lot of them are based on sight seeing and scenic rides… the small windows don’t really lend themselves well to that type of operation. Thank you for watching!
Regarding the small windows on Amfleet cars, I’ll definitely go with option 3, “Passenger Safety”, having personally been sitting behind an Amfleet window that got “rocked” by a batch of teenagers as our train (inbound to NYC on former New Haven RR trackage) in the Oak Point area, around the start of the upgrade approach to the Hell Gate bridge. Thank God for Lexan windows! (Had the rock come through, it would have struck me in my right temple! 😢). This was sometime in the late 1970’s ~ early 1980’s.
There's an easier solution to the smaller windows. Larger windows inside takes up valuable real estate where you can put things, like a table, or the air vents, and at the end of the day there's nothing too small about the windows from the person sitting in a chair that is 1 to 3 feet away from them.
Amtrak is so far behind the far more advanced countries of the far east and Europe. Highspeed bullet trains and maglev super train technology, the new american dream....
I've just come across your channel. I wish we had an operator with the style and class of Amtrak here in the UK. I am a fan of Budd products in general, whether on the NY subway (sadly no longer in service now, I think) or Amtrak. Really enjoyed this video and the photography; you have a new subscriber!
Amtrak was born due to the govt taxing the rr's an arm and a leg. the interstate sys was killing many rr passenger service lines.. 1 & 3 seems correct. Amtrak has some new cars from CAF i did see the baggage cars and combo cars leave the plant in my hometown.
i would like to believe that if amtrak never formed then the amfleets would still end up being designed since they're literally just cabless metroliners
I once took the westbound Amtrak to California. As we pulled into Albuquerque, NM our train was literally attacked by young barrio hoods that pelted us with with a barrage stones. We were fine of course but I was certainly shocked. I support the safety theory, #3.
That’s very disconcerting! One time on the Capitol Limited someone wedged a stop sign between the rails. Luckily it was just a short delay. They could have done serious damage or worse! Sorry that happened to you!
@@RailWeeklyThanks but don't get me wrong.....I love Amtrak. One of the best vacations I've had was when we rented the Family Cabin and made a complete loop around the country. I want to do it again but this time, I'm trying to get the kids to pay for everything (not making much progress yet.) Good video mate.
![Amtrak's Capitol Limited - History, Triumph and Tragedy [S3: E05]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/rnAGwVY-3fo/mqdefault.jpg)
![Amtrak's Capitol Limited - History, Triumph and Tragedy [S3: E05]](/img/tr.png)
![The Dining Car - Glorious Past, and Promising Future? [S3: E10]](/img/1.gif)
I worked at the Budd Company from 1981 to 1986. The Amfleet 2 final assembly. I am proud to see the cars I worked on 40 plus years ago in person from time to time.
The one really not so good design feature on them is the inboard bearing, commuter-style trucks on them. They just can't provide a smooth enough ride above 80 mph or so. They are durable and reliable, though.
That must be a great feeling to have been a part of that. Thank you for your hard work, coming from someone who has spent a lot of time riding on these cars!
And railcar building hasn't been the same since Budd left the biz.
Am I the only one who feels that the small Amfleet 1 windows are more than adequate size, and give the cars a private cozy feel, as well as less glaring sun coming from the top part of the window (which you can’t even use to see out of anyway because it’s way above eye level)? This is coming from someone who loves looking out the window during the entire ride, and loves large windows in buildings
I completely agree. The Amfleets definitely provide a cozier ride. When I'm returning home after a long day, I find the Amfleets to be much more relaxing than the bright lighting on the Acelas. Both have their benefits though.
@@RailWeekly I have a strong preference for the NERegional over the Acela for exactly this reason, completely aside from the absurd price difference.
I agree. I feel a great sense of privacy with small windows
Budd still had tooling from building the Metroliners, to build the Amfleet.
Want small windows? The Pullman Standard and Bombardier built Comet series rolling stock at NJ Transit, MBTA, MTA, Connecticut DOT, SEPTA and Amtrak's intercity versions, the Horizon fleet.
Same principle. Kids throwing rocks at trains, thus the small windows.
It’s gong to be incredible to know the Amfleet will have a longer service life than so many of its predecessors
They were very solidly built! And we will see how much longer they have to go!
@@RailWeeklyAnd they still look great.
One configuration that I remember and that I didn't see in your brief sketch was the business class cars between DC and BOS just before the Acela was introduced. I don't clearly remember the exact configuration (it was 30 years ago), but I distinctly remember very nice "Captain's Chairs" along one side of business class with pairs of comfortable seats on the opposite side. There was a Cafe counter at one end of the section (perhaps the other end was a food service car?).
In the 1990s, before the NE corridor was electrified, I rode the trains that became the "New England Regional" between Boston and NYC twice a week. The northbound ride from NYC to BOS at the end of a long work week in Manhattan was a joy to relax in for my trip home. I rode the same train each week, and the crew was always the same. By my 2nd or 3rd trip the business class attendant behind the counter knew me and knew that I always started my homeward ride with a glass of red wine and two bags of almonds. As I boarded the car, he would smile and ask "the regular?" I would take my seat (always a captain's chair) and he would bring my wine and nuts. I loved how the dingy green walls of the platform would start to slide by with no muss, no rude orders to "fasten my seatbelt and make sure the tray table is in its upright and locked position", and -- most of all -- NO STRESS. It was a joy compared to a shuttle from La Guardia.
I love riding Amtrak, and I particularly enjoy the NE Regional between BOS and DC. I much prefer the roomier seats, more comfortable ride, and more accessible food options from the Cafe car (in comparison to Acela). I don't mind the extra time.
Yes, the captains chairs you are referring to were in their Parlor Cars on the Metroliner train sets. I have no idea if they carried that concept over to the AmFleets as well. Maybe someone will know and leave a comment. I also rode many times prior to electrification. The train would change to a diesel engine in New Haven. I have quite fond memories of that as well. Thank you for sharing all of this!
Back in the early 80’d my wife and I rode the Crescent from Philadelphia to New Orleans in Heritage cars and back but in the return trip took a side trip to Newport News out of DC in Amfleet cars and they really rode better than the Heritage cars
I recall having encountered one of the Parlor Cars (?) out of Boston in the late naughties. One end was coach, the other business, with a snack bar in-between. I usually took the Acela but it was fully booked. IMO, the Amfleet business class experience wasn't much better than coach (you got free soda and coffee, yay?).
@@alexhajnal107 Indeed, that's the car I remember. I agree about the Amfleet business class experience, particularly on the NE Regional where the most significant difference is that it's at one end of the train so that there's minimal aisle traffic. Some of the Amfleet cars have a cafe at one end, business on the other, and are also at the end of the train (these are run on the DownEaster, the Ethan Allen, and the Vermonter, among others). Those have bigger seats with more legroom, and there's a row of single seats along one side. The price of the upgrade on the latter is low enough that it's worth it, at least for me.
@@thomasstambaugh5181 From what I recall, the business class seats on that train were all 2+2, the same as coach AFAIK. I think the seat pitch was about the same (perhaps exactly the same) as well. Not worth the extra (were I paying for it).
As a former truck driver in Philly, I understand the need for smaller windows. They teach them young in Philly. Rocks, batteries and even bricks. Was tough to drive in the city without AC and the windows almost all the way up, so I wouldn’t be hit.
That sounds awful. I'm very glad this isn't nearly as much of an issue as it used to be!
I remember growing up in Maryland, and around summer of 71, my dad worked in Baltimore, and he would occasionally take me into the city, and I had seen the old B&O trains parked at Camden station. They were the most beautiful things ever. Big windows, blue&grey stripes, stainless steel old Budd washboard cars. Real nostalgic. Too bad they were no longer in service.
Very nice! I grew up in Maryland as well. My father worked for Southern Railway, then for CSX before they moved their headquarters south.
@@RailWeekly Heh -- I grew up in Rockville and Wheaton (Glenmont). My father was lifelong railfan and the Southern was his favorite by far. I grew up in a house stocked with Southern diner china that he bought, and I think of him whenever I ride today's Crescent (even though it's nothing like it's namesake).
@@thomasstambaugh5181 Ha! Small world! My grandparents lived very close to Wheaton. And we too had plenty of Southern Railway china (and B&O of course).
If yo think the Amfleet is old, check out the VIA Rail HEP fleet. They were built in the 1940s and still run in revenue service.
Totally! There was just a piece on the Toronto local news this week I believe. They are worried they might have to start cutting routes if they don’t replace equipment pretty soon. I keep thinking I want to ride the Canadian while I still can with the Park cars.
1955. Blt by Budd for CPs Canadian and Ocean. Not the 1940s. Stainless steel carbodies are indestructible and VIA has converted all these to HEP. With new mechanicals and interiors, there's no reason they can't last forever.
The transcontinental equipent inherited from CP rail was from 1954/1955, and rebuilt with HEP in early 1990s after the great cuts. (they are called HEP1). After the great cuts 1o 1989 VIA also got rid of all of the ex CN fleet and by the mid/late 1990s, VIA started to need more cars so went to Amtrakl to get some of their "heritage" fleet that was let to rot for many many years. VIA handed them off to CAD or other for a rebuild and put then in corridor service as HEP2 (geerally have smaller windows as indication and an interior that tried to emulate the LRC) ) Some of those were from 1945 and younger. @@Greatdome99
@RailWeekly if you book a trip on Via between Halifax and Montreal in a cabin for 1, then you're guaranteed to get a cabin in the Budd car. You can also book a trip in a berth if you book early enough. The dining car, however, will be a modern Renaissance car, as will be most of the cabins for two.
To experience dining in a park car, book a trip between Toronto and Vancouver. Those trains are entirely Budd cars.
And they are nicer .
There were variants of these cars that were operated by commuter railroads. The Budd M-1 self-powered cars of 1968 were by far my favorites. I love the small windows of the Amtrak cars.
The reason for the small windows in the Amfleet 1 cars is quite simple in fact you even mentioned it ... "Metroshell".
In the early 1970's after the Arab oil embargo Amtrak needed new cars and they needed them STAT. Since they wanted a stainless steel car the first choice was Budd. At first Amtrak wanted a traditional square sided car with sliding doors and high capacity seating. Budd said it would take months to design such a car (no CAD back then) and then two years or more to manufacture them. Amtrak asked can't we get them quicker? Budd replied no .... but we still have the jigs at the Red Lion plant setup for the Metroliner production run. Here's what we'll do, we'll cut off the engineers cab, remove the pantograph and all the un-needed electrical gear/traction motors and have those cars to you in no time. Since they're basically non powered Metroliner cars we'll call them Metroshell cars. Take a look at your video with the Metroliner cab car and the Amfleet cars behind it. Notice how they all look the same? The initial order was for 57 Metroshell cars which with add-on options ended up being 492 cars.
I grew up in the Washington DC area and as a teenage railfan attended both the local RRE and NRHS meetings. There I ran into several Amtrak people who were also railfans. They told us of plans for Amdomes, Amdiners and Amsleepers. The Amdomes never came to be as Amtrak decided to go with their version of the ATSF high level cars for the western trains. The Amdiners and Amsleepers later morphed into the Viewliner series with a more conventional square body shell.
As for window size the main driver for larger windows is off all things stretchers. It's impossible to get a stretcher out an Amfleet I window. Current FRA/NTSB rules require a window big enough for a stretcher with a person in it to fit through a removed window. I'm not sure when this rule came about but the Amfleet II cars came with larger windows.
Wow! This is some fantastic information! Thank you so much for taking the time to type this out. I had never considered the stretcher thing, that makes a lot of sense.
An AmSleeper would have been a fascinating thing to see.
@@RailWeekly Actually there was an Amsleeper! Amtrak used to run an overnight train between Washington and Cincinnati called the Shenandoah. At the time (mid 70's) the ICC required Amtrak to provide some type of sleeping accommodation. Amtrak didn't have enough Budd 10-6's converted to HEP so it created the "Amsleeper". Two prototype Superliner roomettes were wedged into one end of an Amfleet I car. If you will remember some Amfleet I cars were delivered in a long distance seating arrangement with dressing rooms at one end. The two roomettes were installed just ahead of the two dressing rooms. The train usually ran with three cars, an Amcoach, an Amdinette and the Amcoach/sleeper car. I did ride this train back in 1979 just before it was discontinued but both rooms were booked so I got the mileage in coach. Both cars numbered 22800 and 22801 had the roomette rooms removed when the train was discontinued in October 1979.
BTW - I worked for Amtrak from 1977 until 1996.
Makes sense. Years ago I read something with the "like an airplane" explanation which I believed and just thought was stupid. It was probably made up by the Amtrak PR department.
If it ain't broken, don't fix it! 😊 I've seen these things run from coast to coast mixed in with super liners or trotting along at very high speed up and down the north east corridor. Also I once read an article in an old publication of trains magazine that said the windows were sized down and elongated in the new 85' Budd Amfleet design for needed overhead storage space to accommodate commuters and travelers carry on baggage and coats. During prototype testing it was determined that the view once seated was not compromised.
Hope this helps.😊
That is very interesting and makes a lot of sense. Thank you for sharing!
Thanks!
Thank you so much!!
Beautiful video, Mike!!
To be honest, I think it is a combination of all three!
Thank you so much! Great to hear from ya! :-)
Yeah I have to agree
I just love silver/ metallic colors on transportation stuff like this, just like an old song lyric : “fly the ocean in a silver plane”
it feels beautiful and nostalgic❤
I also remember back then I had a train toy in the shape of Amtrak❤
Totally. It reminds me of the old American Airlines fleet too. Haha
'EXCELLENT DOCUMENTARY AND NARRATION !
Thank you so much! :)
~5:00 Teeny windows: That's 3 theories I'd not heard before. I'd always guessed that it was to minimise the cost of heating & cooling.
That’s another great consideration! That’s the answer I received when I asked why Metra and the C&NW used to make their commuter car windows green. Haha
4:50The Japanese Shinkansen (introduced in the early 60s) certainly seemed to be designed to be as much like an airliner as possible, with small square windows and seating all facing the same way
That makes a lot of sense looking at them.
This is a GREAT explanation!
Thank you so much! I'm happy you liked it.
Just checked out your channel and subscribed! Who knew there was so much to learn about elevators! Fascinating!
These cars are beautiful to look at, great to ride in, and considering how old they are and the performance they offer, are some of the best in the world. And I'm European :)
That’s great to hear! I’ll be riding on some European trains later this year. I will have to see if this holds up!
It depends on which ones. The SNCF's Corails are great although boring. The older generations were better because of if the interior. Overall, they do a better job in general but that's because the whole Continent uses rail unlike us... Sad.
I like the old Amfleet cars. I'll miss them when they are gone.
Same here! I’ve heard the new cars aren’t nearly as comfortable.
they need to save these amfleet and put them in the museum.
Happy to see some Hudson Line Metro North RR venues and stations in this well constructed and educational video. Well done.
Thank you so much, Mark!
Don't scrap them. Use them on local routes....forever.
Forever and ever and ever???
Use them as pipe segments. Wish they get scrapped the soonest. The most ugliest coach design among entire railroad world.
Loco-hauled is terrible for local trains. Use EMUs. America just prefers to have a railroad that's lacking behind Uzbekistan and what not, for nothing but the sake of nostalgia. That's how a nation fails.
No lol the amfleet ones need to be retired sooner rather then later they really are starting to show there age
Perfect for NY City to Scranton.
5:30 Efficiency of the AC system can be a reason, for America being a country with high temperatures, smaller windows would mean lesser window area heated by the sun and thus the AC can be more efficient
Yes. That and strength of the unitary-shell were my top two guesses.
Love your videos!
Thank you so much!
I'm pretty sure Budd based the Amfleets on the Metroliner because the last Metroliner EMUs had only been constructed about five years previously, so Budd still had the tooling to build the body shells (this "Metro Shell" you speak of). This would provide Budd with the fast turn-around that Amtrak needed for new intercity passenger cars since they themselves were based on existing intercity EMUs without having to convert existing commuter car designs (window placement and interior fittings) to fit the criteria. It was more for speed of construction and convenience that they used the Metroliner shell.
Absolutely! Time was certainly of the essence. They went from planning to reality in less than 3 years. I can't imagine any of Amtrak's new train sets will come online nearly that fast now! Look at the new Acelas for instance!
Also, the new generation of lounges should have dedicated space specifically for crew. Its incredibly frustrating to have half the tables in the lounges of most long distance trains taken up by crew in the East
Yes, I have experienced that myself as well (crew taking up lounge space). Some of those Amfleet II lounges have that extra crew space though. Not sure if that’s what it was meant for, or if those are just old phone booths? I have not seen the interior of a Venture Car lounge yet, so do not know if they have crew space.
@@RailWeeklyin the train crews defense; there isn’t really anywhere else to go on most intercity trains!
We aren’t able to sit in revenue seats; since that wouldn’t be fair to paying passengers; and being in the locomotive might be fun; but we wouldn’t be in the body of the train to help passengers more quickly if they have questions, problems or need assistance.
Hopefully they’ll come up with something!
@@TrinityCourtStudios yeah that makes sense after all a happy crew makes happy passengers
@@TrinityCourtStudios certainly see what you’re saying, but my main issue is that you’ll have five different members of the on board staff and crew sitting in five different booths taking up space where no one else can sit. Usually the conductors and ACs will have a booth each with their paperwork spread out. They could consolidate and try and take up minimal space. It’s very uncomfortable for passengers to be caring carriers full of food and drinks back to their seat because an on board staff member on their break is laying there with headphones on and their phone taking up a booth for themselves.
@@RailWeekly some of them may have been the old smoking lounges which were walled off from the rest of the car
Really good overview! I'll miss them on intercity routes.
Thank you so much! Yes, they will be very missed indeed.
At the time, railroad people told me it was to look more like airplane windows. I would suspect the body design was for the same reason. Remember this was around the time of the Turbo trains and they wanted the trains to look more modern. They were a good design and held up. When you are in the cars, the window size isn't a big deal. They operated in the Northeast where clearances were a problem at the time.
Oh yes! The United Aircraft Turbo trains. I have a little footage of those that I am hoping to use in the future. There were also the Rohr Turboliners that are now languishing in a yard in New Jersey.
Same thing with Rohr.
Amtrak attendant here, with a particular fondness for the Amfleet cars! My second favorite equipment after the Heritage fleet. Working single level consists are much more desirable than Superliner(up & down stairs all day). Amfleet cars were originally issued with funky psychedelic purple & orange paisley seats & wall paper(a giant floor to ceiling wall across from the Amcafe!) Unfortunately the new Venture cars lack the comfort & atmosphere of Amfleet.
Yea! Amfleet had those groovy interiors when I first started riding. My first ever sleeping car ride was on the auto train on old heritage sleepers and the full length dome dining cars. Those really were the best.
Another great video!! Smooth edits and transitions.
Thank you so much!!
I learned a lot! Thank you.
My pleasure, Steven! :-)
The third explanation for the small windows is likely the reason. I remember riding a train with Superliner cars in the late 80s, and they asked us to close the curtains rolling out of the station because of kids throwing rocks.
back in the late 60s/70s this was a concern cause the glass shattered easily but the amfleet windows were shatter resistant.
I think the vandalism hypothesis of the small windows makes sense. But also the overhead luggage racks are pretty ample and start immediately above the windows so they may have sacrificed window height for increased luggage space. Other thoughts of mine are the small windows allow more insulation in the walls, and less overheating or over brightness inside on the sunny side. This keeps the interior a comfortable light level whether some travelers are sightseeing or sleeping. If you’re sitting next to the windows the height doesn’t affect your view of the passing scenery as much as I thought it would when I first boarded one of the trains.
This is all very true. Even though they are noticeably small, they don’t seem to obstruct the view (as long as you have a window seat).
The small windows aren't actually an issue. You can see out them perfectly. And the best part is that the smaller window reduce the sun glare that is terrible on trains with big windows.
Oh yea! I don’t really mind them at all. Although I will say that it’s a very different experience riding on Acela with those much larger windows. But you’re right, it can get bright!
Just add sunshades??
Should've also mentioned the Budd SPV2000 railcar. Basically a self propelled Amfleet coach.
Very true. I know so very little about these. I would love to learn more.
@@RailWeekly Based on everything I've read, "self-propelled" is not exactly an accurate way to describe those things. "Seldom-powered" is a better description.
I remember seeing at least one sitting around at the old Budd Red Lion plant until the 1990s, shortly before it was torn down.
At the same time (in 1975) France and SNCF received the first "Corail" cars (Coral) resulting from the merger of french words "Confort" et "rail" (Comfort+ track), still in service today, although the majority had been scrapped. They were suitable for 160 and 200kph and could circulate in the majority of the Europe. Equivalents exist in Germany, Switzerland, etc.
This is something I don’t know much about. I would love to learn more. Thank you for sharing!
@@RailWeekly Wikipedia with google trad for name search,and Ytube for wiewing.
I make this for foreign trains
We used to take the Metroliner all the time when I was a child. At the age, I thought they were floating because they were designed perfectly hid the wheels on the higher platforms. xD
As for the windows, while I do think it is probably a mixture of one of those options - jet-age style, for sure - Amtrak might just have liked the Metroliner look, windows and all. Amfleets are the only rolling stock in their fleet that is near-identical to its predecessor. Not even the Superliners can claim that badge.
Great video! Would love to see the AmClub layout and those other layouts you mentioned!
Thank you so much! I tried to find them but I was unable. I remember the dinette and lounge setups. I never personally rode in one of the club cars though. If anyone else has any info on this, some links would be appreciated!
Nice video, love the transition at 3:12 haha
Haha, thank you!
The windows are tiny to keep you from escaping.
Airplane windows are even smaller
Haha! That’s a dark angle I didn’t consider! 😬
LOL!
In the process of a wreck, prevention of escape is important. One doesn't want to be ejected through a window!
Why are the windows so small? Look at what they replaced and what other trains were being built at the time. GE Silverliners/Arrows. Budd Metropolitan and Cosmopolitan. They all had small windows. They complimented the existing fleet of the LIRR and what became Metro North, for example. It was the style of the time.
So maybe there is some proof to back up the “jet-age style” option after all. You’re right, they definitely weren’t outliers.
The reason for small windows was to compete with airlines and the original Metroliners were called also "Ground Shuttle". But in addition to that, the very style of small windows was not new with the Metroliners. Small windows were first used 10 years before on 6 (six) self propeled electric units built for Pennsylvania Railroad in 1958. Those electric units were originally called the "Pioneers". When in 1963 more electric MUs were coming to Philadelphia area, they were called "Silverliner II", to keep it simple the railroad (PRR), renamed the original six "Pioneer" MUs:"Silverliner I", later in the decade (1968) "Silverliner III" cars came to Philly area and at the same time "Jersey Arrow I" to New Jersey DOT. All of these MUs followed that style with small windows. This is what was in vouge then. Last of the small windowed electric commuter MUs were "Jersey Arrow II" for New Jersey area, and at the same time "Silverliner IV" cars for Philly area in the middle of 1970s. Latest of that style are "Jersey Arrow III" built in 1978-1980 time period for New York-New Jersey metropolitan area.
You are very correct. The small windows are very noticeable on a lot of that older commuter equipment. NJ transit just posted this week that the replacements for a lot of those Arrow cars will start being delivered later this year!
I recall hearing from somewhere that people throwing rocks at train windows back in the day was a serious issue.
It certainly was. Not sure why it's not as big of an issue now, but I'm very glad it's not!
4:57 The N700 Shinkansens have the same affect by having tiny Jet style winodws too but they actually go airplane speeds.
Haha! Maybe we will have that in the US one day.
@RailWeekly Technically, in terms of train you already have it (the Acela 2 can go at 360kph, even the Acela 1 could go fast) but it is the infrastructure that is not keeping up
TL;DR: I agree with the window theories.
This is a more obscure suggestion but before the time of the Metroliners the previous PRR EMU fleet at higher speeds would suffer their windows being ripped out due to pressure differences. Window technology like you said wasn’t as good as it is now so it may have been safer and cheaper to keep the windows small.
That makes complete sense. Rumor has it the new Acela fleet was experiencing the same issue though (a window got ripped out).
I’ve read the same - the windows on the Avelia sets are problematic.
The last explanation for the smaller windows is the correct one. There was a concern that with closing speeds between Metroliner trains exceeding 300 mph, larger windows could be sucked out of the car bodies. As such, Budd designed the windows to be smaller to prevent this from happening. The Amfleet I's were simply built off of the Metroliner plan, which was a wider, more luxurious car design.
@@tmcorbett won't it be better to go to Kawasaki or Mitsubishi for the E7 or series 700 as they are standard gauge.
@@kevwebb2637 series 700 and E7 are wide (Width 3.33m for E7 and 3.38m for series 700 )
I say those three reasons for the windows design to be smaller do make sense, however, the amfleets in terms of compatibility have been pair with heritage units and the horizon fleets and rarely the bi level cars but only linked through the lower level
Yes indeed! As long as they had upgraded the heritage car to be HEP ready, then the Amfleets could run on any train. They used heritage dining and baggage cars for many years on the east coast overnight trains.
1- Stainless Steel is not "lightweight". (outside the USA). But in the USA, the "made in USA" has basically required stuff made of steel to meet the criteria, so heavy, slow trains - FRA finally agreed to allow aluminium shells again in 2018. (the "strenght" aspect ended up being bogus after a number of accidents showed Amfleet cars wrapped around a telephone pole whereas in Europe, aluminium trains remained whole during derailment).
2- The small windows were inherited from Metroliners and definitely due to rock throwing.
3- Amtrak had to convert its "heritage" to HEP because when it bought new locomotives, they didnt have steam generators. And it allowed mixing of heritage sleeper and dining cars with Amfleet coaches on trains such as the Montréaler. (Superliners can't go to New York City so Amtra was stuck with heritage sleeping cars for a long time until the Viewliner cars).
Amfleet 2 has larger windows (within the constraints of curved body) because they travel mostly oustide the NE corridor. They also have old style manual doors vs automatci doors for high level platforms on Amfleet 1 (but manual stairwell deployment). Makes sense since Amfleet II make fewer stops and don't need to have people get on/off all at same time and often patforms are too short don't allow all doors on train to open.
The Airo trains are just normal siemens venture cars. nothing new. What is new is that they will have permanently coupled coach car attached to the diesel loco with half of it loaded with batteries and electrical equipment to drive the bogie motors directly instead of the diesel generator. One problem with the FRA rules is that once a modern train has been downgraded to meet FRA standards, it costs too much to bring an updated model and redo all the changes and qualification work so that one model gets re-used for as long as they can.
This is some great info! Thank you so much for taking the time. The Amfleets were definitely considered “lightweight” compared to a lot of the older cars which were actually know as “heavyweight” cars. They had 6 axels and thick steel plating. I got the chance to ride one on the Corridor once (the Dover Harbor) and you can really feel the difference in the ride quality, especially on turnouts.
You know, and you’re opening line you talked about the AmCam coaches, I have to say is a lifelong Amtrak rider. I’ve never heard that term.
Oh yea! AmCan and AmTube! Quite prolific terms.
The windows are small because the car bodies are of a monocoque construction design. Site down the outside of an Amtrak Amfleet car, notice how the car body curves upwards at the middle of the car. When fully loaded with passenger and their belonging that upwards curve is smaller. The car body carries the weight of the interior furnishing and the passengers aboard them. Legacy passenger cars were boxes bolted to the deck of a flatcar that did not flex when loaded.
This is really interesting. I didn’t know this. I’m definitely going to be looking for this now. Thank you for sharing!
@@RailWeekly Upwards curve clearly visible in this clip from your video: ruclips.net/video/GSPO-69S_7Q/видео.htmlsi=as3qE5lj6yA2c00Q&t=337
I was told years ago it was to make the windows smaller targets for rock throwers as these cars would be traveling through the cities of the NE corridor.
This does seem like the most likely explanation. It certainly limits that issue.
Although not operated by Amtrak, the related SPV2000s deserve a mention. Also built in the Metroshell shape, they were self-propelled Diesel Multiple Units that Budd built as a successor to the classic RDC. Only bought by two NYC area commuter fleets, they proved to be reliability bombs and old RDCs often substituted. Soon after their engines were removed to turn them into plain locomotive hauled coaches.
Yea, someone else mentioned those as well! I’m aware of them, but I know very little about them! Thinking of doing an episode on Budd RDCs… those might be a good thing to include!
4:13 There's no need to overthink it. They weren't meant to be windows but embrasures.
I suspect that the Metroliner window design came from the aesthetic tastes of the designers and the agency staff that chose them. Remember that the Amfleet brought in Lexan windows, which reflect stones and other debris, rather than shatter like traditional glass. The combination of Lexan windows and synthetic rubber weatherstripping makes an Amfleet car a cozy place during the coldest winter nights.
That is very true. It has never been cold on Amfleet cars in the winter, unlike in some other equipment I have ridden on.
The British Mark 1 cars have curved sides and large windows with flat glass. There is a transom ie a 3ft lower portion and 1ft upper portion with sliding ventilators.
I'm not completely familiar with those. I will be filming in the UK soon and will have to keep an eye out for those. Thank you! :)
@@RailWeekly
This stock is only on the museum railways and steam specials these days.
Technically speaking, I think that Amtrak did take on a few heavyweight coaches such as PRR P70s for a short time when they first started up. Before they could start moving equipment around between predecessor railroads, some P70s were used in NEC service, simply because Penn Central (and PRR before them) couldn't afford replacements.
Absolutely. Amtrak definitely cherry-picked the best and newest equipment from each predecessor railroad for their day-one operations. It definitely became a mess when equipment started moving off their "home roads" and maintenance crews in separate parts of the country weren't familiar with how different equipment operated. Amfleet went a long way towards standardizing maintenance.
Great video
Thank you! So glad you enjoyed!
#3 is the only explanation I’d ever heard.
That was actually the explanation that I heard last! Haha. But I think that’s the most widely-accepted one.
Siemens Venture car has such a drab exterior appearance. It would be nice if it had some kind of fluted sheetmetal.
I love the fluting on these as well.
IIRC, Mexico now owns a few Amfleets
That is true! I had a note about including that in this video, but I wasn’t able to locate and pictures or footage that I had the rights to. Haha
I've also heard the rocks theory about the small windows. Pretty interesting that that was such a problem in the latter half of the 20th Century but you never hear about it now. I wonder how / why that changed
It definitely has decreased a lot. But that accident that happened in Philly (Frankford Junction) was attributed to rocks being thrown at a train and thus distracting the engineer. It’s an age old problem I’m afraid.
oooh yeah that's the big notorious one, just listened to a 'Well There's your Problem' on it. Pretty sure the new Siemens cars have bigger windows which I'm excited for@@RailWeekly
Informative and enjoyed it..subscribing from Dubai..😊 Cheers!
Welcome aboard! Thank you!
Maybe the windows are so small for better thermal insulation.
This is definitely a side benefit!
The Amfleets were based on the Metroliner because no one was building new Passenger Cars for the North American market, but the Budd company still had the tooling for the Metroliner.
The windows are the size they are because that was the size of the windows on the Metroliners.
You are very correct, the Mertoliners were absolutely the best choice for something off-the-shelf. But Pullman Standard was still in business at this time building passenger cars too. In fact, they built the first order of Superliners after this. I explored it a little more in this video…. ruclips.net/video/8jM84OmfCC0/видео.htmlsi=BiBKFhhmjMqjYnzL
1:03 this made me laugh sooo hard!!!!😂😂😂
Haha! I mean….
the bigger the window, the harder to cool the train in summer... always thought that's the reason
That could absolutely be part of the reasoning as well! Electric Air conditioning on trains was still relatively new at the time. The steam heated cars would have steam injector air conditioners. These were some of the first cars to have electric compressor air conditioners.
@@RailWeekly certainly, here in Israel, you see windows get bigger as the Air-Cooling Units get more powerful... from the oldest modified Chrysler models to the newest Siemens on the Jerusalem Express, the difference is very clear...
These cars will eventually end up in the usual hands like museums, etc., but I'm sure some private individuals will love to own one of them. Almost like the train version of the Airstream RV's.
I think you just gave me an idea for my retirement home haha.
Last week I was on the train from Boston to NYC which had these cars with small windows. What a terrible ride! Lots of annoying mechanical noises crappy doors in some cars. They definitely needed to be replaced a long time ago, like 20 years ago or so.
Although these are great cars, I have had similar experiences. On one cold day on the corridor last month, the end door kept opening on every curve, blasting cold air into the car. I wore my coat the whole 3 hour ride! haha
re the window size - Glancing at the Metroliner wiki - in the 60s the federal govt was working with PRR on the car design. The feds wanted a 160mph capability to beat the Shinkansen. PRR wanted a 125mph design. The feds won, and they were over engineered to 160mph with design tradeoffs. Note that Amfleet II cars have larger windows than Amfleet 1 so the size used for Metroliner/Amfleet 1 wasn't required for the curved body or chassis. My guess is the smaller windows were a compensation for the 160mph design speed not a rock throwing guard. Also noted in the wiki is in tests and early runs Metroliners sucked windows off older trains they passed on adjacent tracks.
Apparently they are having some of the same window issues with the new Acelas as well. Looks like some old issues are still just as hard to solve today.
National Railroad Hall of Fame website has taped video with Paul Reistrup, President if Amtrak, explaining the rationale behind his decision to buy the cars and why the fleet size was an odd number. Price per car was cheap looking back from now. Small windows, adopted by non-Amtrak commuter cars built around the same time, was because of line side rock throwers.
That's wonderful! I'm going to have to check that out. Thank you for letting me know!
US railroading always surprises me. Not like I had a solid grasp on what numbers to expect, but just 600 of those? I'd have expected possibly another zero at the end of that ...
Passenger train travel just is not as much of a thing here. The country is just too large and spread out, and the (lack of) demand can't justify the "more serious" investment.
It just goes to show you, 600 seems like a shockingly large number to me as an American. Passenger rail is gaining a lot of popularity here though. Maybe we will have thousands of the new cars. 🤞🏻
@@RailWeekly Intra-city passenger rail can grow but I don't see inter-city bulk passenger service ever being economically viable. (Planes, you win.)
Out of LAUPT, Amtrak uses the amfleet 1 for excursion service
Definitely! I have seen them on excursions, and sometimes they have a set running on the Surf Line.
As others have said, the Amfleet windows are NOT small. On the inside, seated, they are plenty big, you see the full expanse of the countryside.
Very true! As long as you have the window seat, the views are more than adequate.
I've been trying to get a job with Amtrak. It's a very difficult process.
I have heard the same thing. I know several people who have submitted resumes. Only one that I know of had any luck.
I meant they’re Budd’s so the solution is to treat them like the B-52 and keep them in eternal service. Put them on low traffic lines… also build more lines. With maintenance they can and will outlive us all.
Agreed. Even though Amtrak is getting a bunch of new cars soon, it would be unwise to retire all of these.
Do not get rid of them. I’ve been riding and working on them since they were built. They’re tanks. Budd built the best. 👍🏽😎🇺🇸🚃🚃🚃
Hopefully they do keep a good bit of them in operation... especially if they are planning to add new routes and frequencies. They are going to need all the equipment they can get!
The few things wrong with the coaches were the vestibules and clogged drains on the air conditioners. In winter, snow and ice would infiltrate the vestibules and sometimes the coaches. In summer, the AC's could start leaking from the ceiling.
Are you referring to the Amfleets or the Heritage coaches that they replaced?
Amulets@@RailWeekly
The Amfleet are like tanks on railway.
They really are! The Amfleets were very well-built! That's why they have lasted so long!
If the reason is the circular shape of the Amfleets, how come the windows on Viewliners, Superliners and Horizons are also relatively small?
If the reason is the airplane-style design, how come the Heritage cars, too, have small windows (at least in comparison with European trains)?
Therefore, the theory of stone-throwers being the reason for small windows seems most realistic of all three. First, it was seemingly unique to North America, and, secondly, it pre-dated Amtrak.
Well I don't know enough to say with any certainty, but on the Viewliners and Superliners, I would assume the smaller windows would be needed because there are two rows! They are definitely larger than Amfleet windows though. Same with most heritage cars I have ridden on. I rode in four different historic cars on Amtrak last year, and the windows were absolutely larger. That's certainly not the case with ALL pre-Amtrak cars. The Slumber Coaches are a good example of tiny windows...
@@RailWeekly, on Amfleet II the windows are the same size as those on Superliners as well as the main (lower) windows on Viewliners. As for two rows, this feature is unique to Viewliners, though Superliner sightseeing lounges have something similar (but those lounges have absolutely large windows in spite of that). And the rest of the Superliner fleet don’t have double row of windows. I’m not familiar with all Heritage fleets, but the sleepers that were used on the Three Rivers from 1999 to 2001, and later as crew dorms on all single-level trains, their windows are even smaller than on Amfleet II. And the Hi-Levels inherited from Santa Fe have windows very similar to those on Superliners and Amfleet II. But all of those windows (except, perhaps, the sightseeing lounges on Superliner trains) are smaller than those on European trains.
@@abenm613Yes exactly, Amtrak was running some slumber coaches on the Three Rivers for a while. Those were the ones I was referring to. Very small windows on those. I'll be doing some filming in Europe this spring. I'll definitely be paying close attention to the windows now!
@@RailWeekly, the cars used on the Three Rivers in 1999-2001 were not slumbercoaches; they were full-fledged sleepers, with single-occupancy roomettes and double-occupancy bedrooms.
@@abenm613 I thought they had those single-occupancy upper/lower staggered rooms though. No?
I feel the urge to invest into a personal amfleet car in my backyard
You could start AmBnB!
The floors are sticky in the new Siemen cars! 😮😂
Haha! I think that’s more a function of snacking passengers than bad design.
I took a ride on the Pacific Coastliner newer cars one direction, then took a ride in a traditional AmFleet the other direction. The AmFleet was SO MUCH better!
Makes sense to me! I like those double decker surfliner cars though. The only thing is taking luggage up those narrow staircases!
I love the Amfleet cars. Going to be a sad day when they are no longer running on the Vermonter and Ethan Allen Express. Something about a shiny clean car in the sun is always nice to see. Same with American's unpainted metal with the stripes. Now its a less interesting paint job
Agreed! I love the stainless steel look.
I heard that the head Amtrak had an airline background.
That’s true. Several of their presidents have come from airline backgrounds.
Very comparable to British Rail's Mk 3 stock, which entered service at pretty much exactly the same time and some are still in service today
I will actually be filming this year in the UK. Any idea where they are operating currently?
@@RailWeekly they're (that is, High Speed Trains (HSTs)) are still in use in Scotland on most longer routes from Glasgow and Edinburgh for a while yet
Number4 reason for small windows. Not as likely to lose the bodies through broken/missing windows in a derailment.
That is probably very true!
Subbed Marietta, Ga.
Thank you so much! Are you a Southern Railway fan? Hoping to get a video together on the Crescent in the future.
Maybe all of the windows should be covered over.
I think the windows are that small, because Budd just converted the carbody of the Metroliner EMUs to become passenger cars in an as cheap as possible way = without changing anything that doesen´t need to be changed.
You’re absolutely right. Just as someone else mentioned, time was of the essence when acquiring these cars. Modifications would have required additional time and testing.
You should do what they do in Britain and put them on Heritage Railways
It remains to be seen if any heritage railways take these. A lot of them are based on sight seeing and scenic rides… the small windows don’t really lend themselves well to that type of operation. Thank you for watching!
Regarding the small windows on Amfleet cars, I’ll definitely go with option 3, “Passenger Safety”, having personally been sitting behind an Amfleet window that got “rocked” by a batch of teenagers as our train (inbound to NYC on former New Haven RR trackage) in the Oak Point area, around the start of the upgrade approach to the Hell Gate bridge. Thank God for Lexan windows! (Had the rock come through, it would have struck me in my right temple! 😢). This was sometime in the late 1970’s ~ early 1980’s.
Wow! So glad that this isn’t the huge problem that it used to be.
There's an easier solution to the smaller windows. Larger windows inside takes up valuable real estate where you can put things, like a table, or the air vents, and at the end of the day there's nothing too small about the windows from the person sitting in a chair that is 1 to 3 feet away from them.
Yea I agree with you if they are old just restarate them
Same with airplane windows.
Amtrak is so far behind the far more advanced countries of the far east and Europe. Highspeed bullet trains and maglev super train technology, the new american dream....
I’m excited to check out some of those European trains later this year. Maybe I can do a video on how they compare… 🤔
They should have a phone booth thing still. For privacy
I think some of the Amfleet II Cafe cars still have the booth. I don't think they have doors though.
@@RailWeekly huh. I havent seen one but it would be nice to have a place to take a phone call.
I've just come across your channel. I wish we had an operator with the style and class of Amtrak here in the UK. I am a fan of Budd products in general, whether on the NY subway (sadly no longer in service now, I think) or Amtrak. Really enjoyed this video and the photography; you have a new subscriber!
Thank you so much for subscribing! I plan to have some UK content this year as well!
Amtrak was born due to the govt taxing the rr's an arm and a leg. the interstate sys was killing many rr passenger service lines.. 1 & 3 seems correct. Amtrak has some new cars from CAF i did see the baggage cars and combo cars leave the plant in my hometown.
Yes indeed! Those are the viewliners. It's a wonder why they never made a coach version of those for the long-distance trains.
i would like to believe that if amtrak never formed then the amfleets would still end up being designed since they're literally just cabless metroliners
You’re probably right. In an alternate universe we would be riding these on the Pensy today!
The windows were huge to me. That’s because I was coming from plane windows lol
Yes! It’s an upgrade from an airplane cabin in every way!
I once took the westbound Amtrak to California. As we pulled into Albuquerque, NM our train was literally attacked by young barrio hoods that pelted us with with a barrage stones. We were fine of course but I was certainly shocked. I support the safety theory, #3.
That’s very disconcerting! One time on the Capitol Limited someone wedged a stop sign between the rails. Luckily it was just a short delay. They could have done serious damage or worse! Sorry that happened to you!
Pelted with stones? Here it would be on the national news and no stone would be left unturned until the youth responsible were arrested...
@@RailWeeklyThanks but don't get me wrong.....I love Amtrak. One of the best vacations I've had was when we rented the Family Cabin and made a complete loop around the country. I want to do it again but this time, I'm trying to get the kids to pay for everything (not making much progress yet.) Good video mate.