Preach Looks over WoW's Social Contract
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- You can read the social contract here: www.wowhead.co...
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Maybe if they actually designed game systems that generated the behaviour in the first half of the contract, rather than just making players pinky promise that they'll be social and friendly
Are we pretending that “MMO players” as a group isn’t already selecting for some of the most socially inept and selfish people there are?
@@xYiazmatx I dont know about selfish, but certainly gamers as a whole aren’t known for their social grace.
@@xYiazmatx All the more reason to incentivize unselfish behaviour
Like what systems would so that. Any in game toxicity is curbed by enforced suspensions there's no way a game could have content like raids or dungeons or pvp at all and expect to be non-toxic without it
@@katepriest346 will never happen. No matter how good the atmosphere or game they make, shitty people will always be shitty.
Enforcement is key. The devil is in the details
If they have a social contract then maybe they could incentivize it by having some sort of token for good behavior attached, perhaps we could call it a social credit.
Why is this needed? Should shit like this not be in TOS anyway?
and how will it be enforced? They don't have gms.
Based
I mean thes rules have always existed, the problem is they don't enforce them so just posting them means nothing if they don't actually enforce them.
"While in Azeroth... don't be a dick" so if I go to Draenor or Shadowlands I can do want i want?
Yes, dickish behavior is still allowed there.
"Go to hell"
"Ok." **clicks hearthstone set to Shadowlands**
game is shit , community is shiter
game is good, community is awesome
i never realized that before untill i discovered FF franchise.
Honestly, it's similar to what FF14 has had and most people don't blow a gasket. Seems simply enough, don't be a jerk, and if you are don't be surprised if you are reported.
Problem is that its not like FF14 because it won't be enforced. It is also not upheld by the developers in game nor in twitter.
@Urazz its not about thinking blizz wont endorce it.
Its Knowing blizz wont.
ff14 chats are also essentialy dead, party chat during roulette? "hello, bye" and that's about it.
reminder that ff14 community is so great that they had to limit chat to few premade msges in pvp to not make it 'toxic' (and even then people found a way to do so who woul've thought)
ff14 went the other way to blizard, where they cracked the whip so hard that people are just passive agressive and vague with their insults for plausible deniability
@@The_Yukki dont know what worlds you visit but chats are anything but dead where I go. in fact I have to shunt them off to their own tab at times because its scrolling so bad it blocks my ability to FC chat. you sound so salty, its hilarious.
@@Shiirow chaos database, ofc there is a small group talking in limsa near the aetheryte. But it's mostly skimpy clothed male roghadyns doing jojoposes and meming. In the half a year I'm playing I've seen any sort of chat visible to all 20 times at best.
And dont get me wrong, I'm more than fine with deadchat, I'm more than content with shitposting in fc discord/chat.
Contracts aren't worth dick unless you enforce them. Blizzard has to mean this shit, and I have my doubts.
GM's doing their jobs? in WoW? 😂😂😂
@@HiddenEvilStudios M's? n oW?
Man if only they had a social contract at blizzard! Lmfao
"Don't be a dick" as a rule is good. Why it's separate from the ToS Blizzard already has is odd. Enforcing it will be the dealbreaker, if you don't handle reports then you can't pretend this is any more than pissing in the wind. Hopefully Dragonflight gives WoW a big influx of GMs to enforce this during the "growing pains" period.
Too ambiguous a rule.
Don’t design content that makes people that way then? M+ for example why does it have timers?
The main reason I suspect they won't actually enforce this (aside from there being no existing precedent for them enforcing ToS on harassment of any kind) is because this is a response to dwindling player numbers. If push ever comes to shove on sub count vs community management, you know which one will win. We weren't born yesterday. Blizzard is saying this to look like they're doing something. But I have my doubts about them voluntarily turning down a player's monthly sub.
Social contracts are typically something corporations make within themselves in order to tell a community what they stand for so I guess they are trying to tell the WoW community what they stand for. I think they should work on their own devs having this attitude in-game and on Twitter rather than telling the customers how they should act. At least FFXIV pays GM's to actually enforce their "social contract". This won't be enforced at all and it's just Blizz trying to appear like they aren't okay with this (when they don't give a shit).
No it'll be worse, what will be enforcing their social contract will be Bots, and they will ban people indiscriminately like you do in a place you want to keep your ass saved as Acti-Blizzard done. They will be getting enormous amounts of censorship backlash.
This reads like corporate focus group testing actions. "We have heard that our players feel attacked in our games so we are taking steps to address it with our social contract."
While I agree that something like this is not objectionable on it's face the fact of the matter is that you need to engender this behavior in your players BEFORE you need the contract and not AFTER.
@Vryn Thorn Social engineering to defraud grandma is illegal this is different. I'm not talking about making players say there are three lights when there are four. We are talking about game mechanics, setting rules, and enforcing those rules. Then there is also the fact that the story has shifted from characters like Jaina trying to bring the factions together to... JAINA of all people doing a purge on Dalaran of the Blood Elves. There are few people in the lore we can look at as moral bastions and examples of what to be. Even the most well meaning are always manipulative See: Wrathion, a dragon whelpling that treats us like lesser beings.
The issue is that a lot of this is counter culture to what blizzard has done to their communities over the years
Which in of itself would still be fine... if Blizzard was actually committed to this social contract with their fans and employees. But it's more "rules for thee and not for me."
@@Xbob42 They can ofc solidify these rules by actually cracking on down on toxicity, if they still emplyed GMs in large numbers as they did back in the day when GMs could pop-in world to assist.
@@ghekor Is that why they have a Diversity Space Tool? I feel like this is just to cover their asses more than less. The Social Credit System in an MMORPG.
Edit: Yes, I am mentioning the Social Credit System of Communist China. Because that's what this Social Contract IS. It's going to be translated into our Lives by force.
I feel like they've seen how people rave about how nice the FFXIV community is and, instead of implementing gameplay mechanics that encourage niceness (commendations, etc.), just threw in a social contract instead.
It's ffxiv's terms of service and enforcement not the commendations
@@acphantom6437 Yeah, but terms of service don't make a community nice on its own.
The fact that the gameplay supports that, not just through commendations, but the novice network and rewards (in fates) based on party contribution as opposed to individual contribution, really helps the community put their best foot forward.
@@redwitch95 I mean, it helps, but the real reason is the actual enforcement. People DO get suspended for saying degenerate stuff in chats, and everyone knows it happens.
@@Aaron.Arcanum though people over estimate the amount of enforcement that happens and what the infractions are. If you listen to some people, just calling someone a doody head will get you permanently banned, when something like that is saved for horrible infractions. at best you will go to GM gaol and have a heart to heart with a SE Ascian before continuing on your XIV journey.
@@Shiirow ffxiv has cultivated a culture that allows them to have these sorts of terms of use and the community will generally agree and conform to them.
WoW has cultivated a culture of douche-baggery and the developers haven't realised that TOS alone doesn't make your community a nice one.
People aren't nice to each other in FF simply because they're afraid of being punished, but because they too have been treated nicely in the past by other players and want to bring that experience to other new players, which in turn allows the cycle to continue.
This Social Contract seems to be trying to get that ball rolling but it's hard to say if the more tenured players are going to feel like they owe the next generation of players anything nice seeing as so many have had such bad experiences with other players in the past.
I think them putting in a social contract is more than fine but the issue is they have to actually enforce it. When I quit during the first tier of SL I had to put in tickets a couple times and they made me wait a week to get an automated response saying "have you checked WoWhead yet?" with just a link the main page. For one of the problems it literally took me opening the ticket up 3 times with over 21 days of waiting, to finally get a reply from a human to help solve my problem.
If its different now and they actually have GMs then that's fantastic but this was so demoralizing and honestly insulting as a player/consumer that I have doubts.
I don’t understand the need for this. Harassment is already against TOS, and it seems that the option to block people would solve the same issues. If they would try to improve the community, create something that rewards positive social interaction. Just penalizing negative behaviour will reduce bad behaviour but it won’t incentivise friendly social interactions, and in many groups it will just mean that chat is even more dead than it already is.
so ff14 situation, where all you ever see in public chats or party chat during duties is 'hello' and 'bye' (and ofc it's variations) since people are afraid of being taken the wrong way, of their joke not sticking and getting someone offended etc.
@@The_Yukki I mean that's just blatantly not true. I manage to have lots of dungeon runs where people make small talk. If someone doesn't talk, you could just as easily assume it's because they're just not feeling talkative, rather than being afraid.
I've played the game since Heavensward without ever even receiving a warning, and I really can't agree with the people who believe that it's some hyper-restrictive system that will ban you for a harmless joke not landing. What kind of jokes are you telling? Don't be a jerk, and if you hurt someone accidentally, just apologize and move on. It's not a big deal.
@@TehLB granted I've only been playing for about half a year, but the times I've seen people chat more other than "hi, bye" can be counted on one hand, and even then it's mostly either "this dungeons sucks" "it was not my intention" or the old west wind macro with 'tactics'.
@@The_Yukki I mean, Dungeons just aren't social things in ffxiv. If I'm running a dungeon its because I have some kind of purpose and I want to get through it as quick as possible. When I'm in the dungeon I'm focusing on 1) getting to the next pack of mobs, 2) aoeing down said mobs, and 3) killing the boss. I don't feel the need to stop and talk about my day. But usually, on the few occasions I do decide to try and start up a conversation, 1 or 2 people will generally respond. The fear of being banned has nothing to do with it. How often are you going out of your way to engage other people?
Don't think this would work. They would need to hire GMs
In the words of Simon Phoenix: "Nah. You can't take away people's right to be assholes."
underrated comment.
"We are not saying you cant be an asshole, we're not saying you cant think like an asshole, you just cant be an asshole in town" - Marshal Earp.
if they want their playerbase to treat other players like human beings, that sort of thing starts at the development stage. the game treats you like a statistic, why wouldnt the playerbase?
I fundamentally like the idea of having a cleanly displayed instead of rules that can be referenced easily.
I don't trust wizard to enforce it for a damn though
so what's the whole point of having ignore list & filter I just rather put people on ignore.
How they obey the real world social contract with their employees first...
I think a funny idea would be to go through this contract and point out every way the wow devs have broken it while talking about members of their community.
@Jay Bee you must be so much fun at parties.
Bringing in social contract for players, but the board voted to keep Bobby I thought. Hmmmm....
Me: Doesn't assist someone in the world
Activision Blizzard: Suspends my account
Imagine if they actually ENFORCED the rules. Maybe people will actually follow them.
Ive reported overt hate speech, slurs, and discrimination, and nothing has ever happened since the Versailles team were let go.
I think that's the intention here, they're gonna start enforcing it(they mentioned suspensions in the contract themselves). It probably won't be extensive enforcement but I think they'll try a lot more than they do now
A social contract is suposed to be created and agreed upon by the ones that it applies to. If they are just creating rules and making users agree to it then its just more terms of use.
Honestly, this won't matter if Blizzard doesn't enforce it. Maybe it turns away like 3 asshats who don't want to accept a "social contract." But it's easy to prompt people to agree to a social contract. Let's see if Blizzard actually hires some GMs to investigate or enforce it. I'm sure they will be quick to claim algorithms, but lots of these things require nuance that no algorithm is going to be able to handle.
Place your bets on what happens next:
A: This is an automated system which can be abused by groups to spam-report people for breaking it.
B: It won't be enforced.
C: Both of the above somehow
Nothing will change.
Chat is part of the pvp experience and maybe they should focus on policing the bots and sellers in their chats and game in general
The only weird thing is why it’s a separate social contract and not just part of the normal terms and conditions for your account
To be honest, to try and put it at the forefront of players minds.
No ones reads the ToS since they are in legal speak. This allows them to put it again front and center without changing anything bin the ToS which requires legal sign offs and stuff.
How is this going to be enforced? If you're a streamer and are shittalking your group vocally but typing them nice messages are they gonna crack down on you? Why is this even a thing?
It's literally not different from ffxiv's report and suspension system
@@HiddenEvilStudios FF14 has like 5 people enforcing the rules, I'm sure Blizz can keep up with that
@@niklasstahl98 you think they would but you'd be surprised lol
Last time I tried to create a ticket to talk to a GM maybe a couple years ago it sent me to the website to report a bug when I was locked in a quest phase.
Right now my warlock in WoW is boned because I hearthed during the intro to 9.1 and there's no way for me to get back to that area now and there's no support in the game.
It's all well and good to tell people to get along, but their biggest problem is that they don't do enough to stop harrassment in game.
Asmon was talking the other day about how people would harrass him in his DMS and they just keep popping back up even if you report and ignore.
I do hope that means or includes physical disabilities, I to this day vividly remember trying to tank a dungeon in TBC classic with 2 friends and 2 randoms, and got shit for pulling a group as well as the patrol. I explained I was super sorry and have a visual impairment, and got a ton of vitriol before they left the group. I’ve never tried to tank since then, just made me feel like it’d never work out how I am.
Also a smaller side note, I am shocked at the few people getting very mad at this change, maybe it’s even more then I have seen but this is legit just an objective good thing, especially if you’re a big fan of FF and subscribe to the idea that a big reason it’s good is the community behaviour, like I do. Not everything Blizzard does has to be bad, give them a tiny bit of credit when it’s due... assuming they actually enforce this and it’s not just damage control, guess we shall see on that front.
People are 'mad' since it's nothing more than virtue signaling. Those things (well maybe outside of the first part 'stop and help' etc) are already in ToS, you know the stuff you have to agree to to play the game. So it rings as 'see we've changed' to the twitter crowd who's all about protected characteristics. Most people don't care whether you're gay, bi, trans or whatever else as long as you're not getting in the way of their progress, or don't shove it in their face.
This combined with apparent lack of staff to enforce it, means it'll be reviewed by bots, which as we all know always goes well. See Asmongold's "Hey chat mass report me after I say 'I love World of Warcraft'" which resulted in an automated temporary ban.
Now let's take this new 'social contract' to the extreme. If I'm killing a rare/about to die/asking a question... If you don't help me (ofc less applicable in terms of asking a question in global chats) can I report you?
Now let's take the bot 'reviewing' reports combined with the new social contract and add players tendency to find holes in systems, and your let's say "Hey where should I level at x level" question gets you temp banned as people abuse the auto report system.
Imagine seeing Blizz launcher with their EULA change 100500, clicking OK without reading because why the fuck do you have a launcher when you want to play a game, then the game starts and you have to read another contract and click OK before you can even enter a game. How do they expect people to read this without mockery I have no idea.
They can kiss my ass. Unless there’s a website I can go to to review the signatures of the Blizz devs who sign a social contract that they won’t harass and assault their co-workers?
So after playing the game for 15 years I can know can nk longer play it because I have to sign a contract put in place because of the scummy actions inside the company. Why do we players have to be punished for the misdeeds of the company.
4:34 I LMFAO so hard
So, does that social contract mean that if I got into a pug dungeon and they kicked me while making derogatory comments about my playing ability they'd be in violation and I could report them? (ha, setting aside the principal that the truth is its own defense)
It's clear they see that other games are having success with more positive communities, but I'll be shocked if they actually enforce these effectively. Hiring enough GMs to read thru reports, actually determine if rules were broken, and punish players if necessary will cut too much into Bobby's $200M xmas bonus, so instead they'll keep everything automated and worthless.
Argus, Outlands and Draenor are fair game. Noted.
Without and GM's actual PPL this wont make a dent and for me to little to late
Accept, load in, disable all and every chat. done.
5:40 As a silent dickhead on the internet I feel offended by this statement.
I fail to see the point of this. It won't improve community behavior, and Blizzard already has the authority to ban people based on bad behavior. Maybe it's an attempt at getting good PR? But even that would be a stretch.
Its because of people insulting and spitting on whales. They want to protect their cows and whales that spend more money on stupid shit like on the classic TBC pass shit that happened.
They removed an entire emote because fucking whales were spitted on.
How had wow survived all this time without a social contract… oh yeah it has the innate social contract that governs most of society anyway. Yea yes it sounds so super reasonable this third party, that isn’t impartial, makes a rule to not be a dick until you become the dick which will happen sooner or later. Social contracts form the basis of society as a whole, but they are created and enforced by society as a whole and not a small group of people who tend to be hypocrites.
FF14 devs: Hey. Please be nice to each other. We want a friendly game. Thanks.
WoW devs: Accept this Nice Social tos contact because we are robots and idk.. Do you want phones yet?
I think it will be a ton of bans the first months.
Shouldn't the employees be the ones signing the social contract? Players didn't get the fucking lawsuit for harassing someone into suicide or stealing breast milk. It would be better recieved if it wasn't after devs at the company itself were purely at fault for the current state of things. It's like reprimanding students after their teachers had a fight in the cafeteria. "Now remember behave children" yeah that's fucking rich coming from the likes of you. Sign your own social contract and follow it for at least a year before being taken at all seriously again.
The second portion is what should be commonplace for games or just being an adult and is dependent on them suspending / banning people that are like that. The first section asking us to do our best to make friends and spend our time for others is obnoxious. No, I'm not going to try to make every stranger my friend (and asking that of people who are all unique individuals with different social fears or social capacities -- such as only being able to handle a number of friends at once -- is terrible). No, I'm not going to be looking for peoples' health bars as I travel and then dismount to help as it'll take an hour to get somewhere at that point (assuming it has enough players again in the future). No, I'm not going to stop and type in chat if I am in the middle of something to answer a question. I will do these if I'm unmounted and have nothing else going on without being obligated to. But I will not do "my best" to fulfill this portion "social contract".
Maybe let people be people and use the ignore feature.
Last time I reported a problem it took me roughly 5 minutes to just find the place to report it. They have all these links to “helpful” pages to guide players through solving the problem themselves when their goal is to find someone else to help them solve it. They also changed their support UI to make it more “modern” I guess, but it’s more confusing than the last one.
As others have already said, I can’t imagine a real person will help enforce this contract with how automated everything is now.
Maybe all true, but it's not going to happen. That is something that happens in FF14, but WoW no chance. With the Elitists in there.
I don't like this kind of stuff but the wow community really took things too far like when they kicked me from lfr because my character looks like a Arab or when they kick me because i asked what the mechanics are or when they spam insult me for making a typo a lot of wow players are just trolls that want to ruin your gaming experience.
I got no real problem with the content of this contract, it's deliberately vague as you'd imagine. The problem I forsee is the lack of staff to enforce this, so its either gonna be handled by algorithm (and be hugely abused) or manually handled (and therefore completely overwhelmed). It's a nice gesture, but they have no good way to enforce it, so it's either gonna end up as a tool for abuse, or a complete waste of time.
So you have to heal idiots who pull all mobs and is going to die? And where is the fun of see that player die? o_O
What did we do that we have to make a contract ? They harassed woman..we didnt. Make the damn game good ... pay ppl to ban them if they missbehave and thats it. Do not make mistakes and blame us for god sake
Why make a game that actually engenders positive experiences when you can just make a game that everyone hates and make them promise not to vent?
Social credit DEDUCTED
"I've healed people and helped them kill mobs sure, unless they're a douchnozzle, then I just watch and laugh" - Pretty much me as a Pdladin main, Mage Alt. Especially in Classic when people yell at me for Blessings on my Paladin. If they'r epolite they get a good one. If they'r ean absolute tool about it they get *a* Blessing, it just might not be anything helpful.
Same with my mage. Polite people get the good food and water and tepelorted to where they need to go. People who are dicks about it et dumped i nthe middle of nowhere with Lv1 bread
If they act on boasting and advertising I'm down
asking me to treat people like people? thats it blizz, canceling my sub....Kappa
hi
hi
yo
hey
hi
gg cya
cheers
bye
see ya
bye
Asmongold is now going to get ban on wow lol
Ffxiv literally has a highly enforced code of conduct and everyone praises it but Blizz tries to do and all of a sudden people call it pointless, abuseable etc
I dont get ut
"There are laws against sexual harassment and discrimination but California tries to take Blizzard to court for violating these laws, and Blizzard calls it pointless, abuseable, etc".
^Pot Meet Kettle
I think enforcement is the key difference here. A common complaint about WoW is that there don't seem to be any GMs around. These days most tickets receive automated responses and most incidents of harassment go unpunished. I think the code of conduct is fine by itself, but it's not going to mean anything unless they start actually enforcing it.
FFXIV also just has a different culture than WoW does. The FFXIV team built their culture from scratch by game mechanics that reward friendly behavior. WoW is now trying to shift the culture 18 years into the game's service. It's gonna be an uphill battle to say the least, and one that won't be accomplished by a list of rules that people can just scroll past. Don't get me wrong, it's good that they're doing something, but unless it's enforced it's just more empty gestures. Very much "I'll believe it when I see it" kind of thing.
So I am not playing WoW anymore as of May 2021. But I hear the WoW community is in a huge ass uproar over this. My guess is cause WoW is the capital city of toxicness. But I read the forums here and there and the players are pissed they cannot continue their shit behavior to other players. This is one step closer to me returning to WoW. I hope Blizzard takes more measures to curve out the shitty toxic behavior that it is known for.
I dont understand, how people don't see that this is conditioning to make you docile, one inch at a time.
Im not an asshole, so someone making a rule forcing me to not be an asshole doesnt really effect me. Who does it effect? The people who do nothing but be assholes to other players. You can call it whatever you like, I call it "living in a society". If you went out into the wide open world and acted like the people do in World of Warcraft, most of them wouldnt have lived to see the end of high school.
@@Shiirow I understand what you are saying and agree in general I do believe people are not assholes and are not assholes to each other, but at the same time in this hyper focus of just WoW, I should be able to say, "bro you fucking suck this is the 10th time you stood in fire, and you don't listen."
Now I don't be able to tell shit players to quit wow and go play solitair
Literally 2022 woke bullshit.
Blame the players because you're in the dog house based on your behavior. How very corporate of them. Do they have to sign a contract not to grope women in the office?
When did Preach's chat turn into such bad faith cancer
I mean, WoW developers haven't done anything to earn any faith, so skepticism (maybe a bit extreme in some cases) is quite earned. And taking into consideration that all WoW players felt abused and betrayed for so long, until Dragonflight releases and both the game and its social managing aspect are both good - that is when the situation might change. Until then - they reap what they have sown. And this behaviour, believe it or not, is more sensible than jumping straight into adoration at the mere announcements and plans.
Pretty common for Twitch Chat
When did Blizzard start assaulting women? stealing their breast milk? drive a woman to commit suicide? prompt an investigation by the state of California? remove pictures of women in game and replace them with bowls of fruit? remove npcs because they are associated with terrible people in the company? when did they start calling it "the Cosby Suite"?
^Truly, I can't see why they wouldn't have 1000% faith in Blizzard....
/s
@@jedison2441 Also true, to be honest)
To act in good faith both sides must do so. Blizzard hasn't acted in good faith since Pandaria, despite rose tinted goggles the remaining fanbase seems to have developed for MoP and Legion.