I'm really happy to hear this spoken outside of typical games media journalism, and all without alienating the practice of gaming as a hobby? Good stuff, made me smile genuinely, as someone who regularly clocks in many hours.
They don't want initially. But like it or not some of them _learn_ to want to gamble. It's more complicated this aspect of wanting, desiring. Either way I agree this has no use besides giving companies money through exploiting fragile psychological characteristics in the human mind.
@@metametodo I think it's more that they just want to get whatever it is because it's rare/awesome or in some cases, the only way they're going to "win". Some of those gambling mechanics are basically pay-to-win because they give out things that _actually_ put you ahead of others who don't pay. So I don't think it makes them "learn to want to gamble" just that they're addicted to the game & have no other possible way to get those things.
Somehow, I feel that if Progressive got wind of this idea, it would be turned into an actual commercial. And then the internet would draw fan art about it and.... oh. Oh dear.
*It's very similar to phone notifications* Sometimes you have a notification "a reward", sometimes you don't... It's a lottery! And that's why you just keep checking your phone even though you should be focused on homework.
like clash of clans and other free to wait games. Hey, wake up at 3am to tap this soo you can wait more. little rewards spaced out and if you want more, then pay.
The sad part is that big game publishers know these things, and they are actviely doing this to make more money than they need, preying on children and problem gambleres whom wanted to escape gambling and finding gambling in video games. And of course, thank god for Jim.
@@jaywebb0113 children robbing their parents credit cards is so common that it's even a meme. You're assuming the parents are completely responsible, make good decisions and are aware of everything, that's never a good assumption to make.
@Compulsive Walker No its not, but then neither is blaming the thing rather than the irresponsibility of the parents, which is a big part of the argument surrounding loot boxes. Its no different than blaming media for exposing children to adult content, which is what irks me about all this. A lot the people going after loot boxes for harming children are the same ones who would be quick to point out how media has age ratings. They aren't advocating for them to be restricted to adult ratings like normal gambling, they're arguing for them to be banned outright "for the children" because they don't like it. An AO rating would sort things out just fine, and those who don't want them can just avoid the games just like they would avoid casinos.
@@ZombieBarioth it definitely is different from censoring media for contentious content. A nude person doesn't harm a soul, the basis for censoring adult media is conservatism, religion, and nothing more, if you'd like to avoid this content from your kid okay, but it's just your opinion and costumes, it's not something that affects everyone pretty equally, it's a matter of opinion and preferences. However, criticizing gambling cricles is based on psychological studies (as you can see which comment section we are in), and psychology affects and involves every single human, making vulnerable from babies to elderly, psychology isn't affected by opinion, and is way more studied and scientific than any conservative stances. So the harmful effects of gambling is a serious matter. It's not the same at all. The first is a matter of opinion and costumes, the second is a security matter because we humans cannot avoid being vulnerable to this, so there has to be a responsibility from the part of the game itself and its creators/administrators.
It's fascinating that some companies are going for "well, we're completely removing loot boxes then" and others are "you know what we need to change? Let's call it a _surprise_ _mechanic_ and add a virtual slot machine in the game"...
Everyone: shows a mountain of research and evidence damning gambling mechanics Game companies: "we disagree with the interpretation of the research and evidence"
@no no It is regarding the last part of the video where they say there are places to reach out to if you find unethical research regarding lootboxes being done in the workplace. I was also confused at first :p
I will never gamble. Because I know I have an addictive personality. Any video game with a randomized reward that lets me try again and again will have me hooked for hours or even days of soft-resetting to get what I want. A good example is shiny pokemon. Or loot drops in Diablo.
And there are people who dosen't know and they can fall into the trap of gamiling in (ESRB E or PEGI 3) games, or children who dosen't realize that tis uses real money. And just imagen that Bobby requireing you to pay for loot after a boss in diablo.
Ive been gaming for years and the lootboxes are a cancer in our community. We all hate it, and greedy companies know that, so they hide it behind jargon to get away with it. If anyone doubts me look up NBA 2k20. It litterally had people playing slot machines to get players they want, ans the game is rated for EVERYONE. So your 8yr old kid can litterally pay money to play slot machines. And its even worse than real life slot machines cause there is absolutly no chance to get that money back.
Monetization in general is a cancer in the video game industry. Rather than put any actual effort into quality games people will be happy to buy and play, many of the largest publishers put out games that test players' patience to push them towards spending more money. It doesn't matter to them if they anger the gaming community with these because they only care about keeping the "whales" hooked and spending - regardless if those people can afford to keep spending or can even help themselves.
Hey, I'm a game developer, background in video gamedev, but I now work in the casino gaming industry: Casinos actually hate being compared to video game loot boxes, because loot boxes are much much worse and more manipulative than casino gambling. All gambling games (table or video) are made and heavily-regulated so that the odds never change. You have the exact same chances of winning any game you would ever play; same odds of a jackpot, same odds of a near miss, same odds of a royal flush or a two pair or whatever it may be. It's literally illegal to do otherwise. A slot machine or casino card game has no memory, it doesn't know or care when you last won or lost, or who is even playing. Whereas loot boxes in AAA games or mobile games are NOT random, they do NOT have the same odds of winning each time. A casino game is a fair roll of the dice, but a loot box is not a roll of the dice despite the game publishers want you to think they are. Loot boxes are an algorithm, specifically tailored to each player to maximize their revenue generation. A loot box knows when you last won or lost, it will intentionally do near misses to trigger your brain, it will change the "odds" unfairly to maximize its manipulation of the user. Microtransaction sales are the worst of this, as these games will individually create sales per user according to their adaptive algorithm, specifically offering sales on the digital items it knows you want at the price it believes you're most likely to make a purchase at when it thinks you're most vulnerable to this kind of sale offer. Digital goods don't actually cost anything for the publisher to sell, all price is artificial, and will be tailored for maximum manipulation. So yeah. If you tell a casino game designer or casino manager that AAA game loot boxes are gambling, those casino people will be very offended, as casino stuff (while designed to take money of course) are far less slimey 😅
This is the video on gambling/loot boxes that we need years ago! Thank you very much for expanding on the specific psychological pitfalls for problem gamblers.
Natasha Dow’s Addiction by Design is a great book if you’re interested! If I remember correctly, it’s more of an ethnography about slots in Vegas than psychology, but still interesting.
thank you for this episode. it really never peaked my interest, but i´m glad i saw this. because, as a child of the 80s, i used to play - and to an extent still do - computer games and i had noticed how much empty time i was investing, that would be more beneficial for studying or working. i still play games recreationally, but i really noticed how many many games over the years adapted their online game offerings to encompass such small items, that get you hooked. at the end of the day, you are investing small in game purchases - it´s really not a lot of money you lose, but that small investment of money, keeps you from quitting the game and do something more productive or entertaining, because you are being conditioned to want to reach that daily goal, that daily perk, this weekly or monthly accomplishment. and all you really do is, spending hours infront of a display, moving shiny objects around, smiling and more often than not cursing at your opponent. now isn´t that nice for entertainment!
Oh god, dark flow perfectly explains so many of my useless distractions (common with my ADHD). Interestingly, my father is a pathological gambler, and it's his side of the family with all the ADHD (he shows symptoms himself too). This makes me want to look more into ADHD and pathological gambling symptoms. There are higher rates of addiction in those with ADHD than those without, and a big part of ADHD is seeking immediate gratification and differences with dopamine. This video was more interesting than I expected, not that I was thinking it would be boring or anything.
CS:GO had those near misses baked into it because of the way the "slot machine" spun around the dial would just barely tick off a valuable item before landing on an item that isn't as valuable.
The "flow" and "wired" state you experince while doing things like gambling, speeding, extreme sports, drug taking, drinking, smoking, some video gmaes and movies is awesome. And very hard to obtain in other activities. And it require a lot of effort and focus to achieve doing non risky or pleasurable experiences. But if you manage to obtain it to study or work you will almost certainly become rich and sucessfull.
You can tune (and slot companies do) the reels to have more 'near misses' to take advantage of people's idea that a near miss is better than any other miss. There are also partial wins (where you get less than the bet back) that work on the same sort of principal.
I watched this video in the morning and when I went out to get coffee my mom told me I have a nice alarm (the sound at the beginning). This coupled with the subject of the video gave me the idea to make an alarm out of sounds from a video game I like to make me more excited to wake up. Has anyone else tried this?
@@u.s.isnolongertheworldsgua2188 I never actually did it haha. Thinking back I can't even remember which game I was thinking about, it's been so long since I've played anything. ¡Ahorita tengo curiosidad! Te agradezco por el recordatorio.
Slot machines trick you into playing in a number of ways. Yes there are near misses but also false wins, spins in which you do get a win but it’s less than your bet. It’s still a loss overall but your brain is tricked into thinking something good happened and it gets a reward response. The colors, sounds, and graphics themselves allure players to keep playing as well. You also many times trick yourself into thinking there is a pattern in the randomness of the spins that doesn’t really exist. You think you can predict when a win is coming but you can’t. And the oldest myth to slots is that if you feed it enough money and play long enough, a big win is certain to come. It just isn’t true.
It's interesting how intermittent reinforcement can be good or bad. Like unpredictability as a flow trigger opposed to gambling. And how it's demonized, even though personally as a ADHDer it has been really helpful in relationships where I'm treated well, otherwise I get utterly bored in 3 months. I think it's the intention that makes the difference, whether it's to support or selfishly take advantage of. Not that intermittent reinforcement is always abusive.
Also, I used to work for a company that printed lottery tickets. The near miss effect is something the scratch off lottery industry takes full advantage of even though if you think about it there is no such thing as an actual near miss where little pieces of preprinted cardboard with special ink over a scratch area is concerned. But its easy enough to print lottery tickets where you have to match 3 in a row to simulate the idea of a near miss by printing tickets that have 2 out of 3 of the symbols you need nearly exclusively.
Question. What is the difference, if any, between a company that makes drugs as addictive as they can to maximize profit and a company that makes slots as addictive as they can to maximize profit?
I really liked that little poke at developers to call out predatory mechanics. Hold people accountable and don't let them slip something in at the eleventh hour.
This only is really effective on me when the near miss turns out to have an alternative purpose or use. For example, in a game where I value playing with others, getting something I can't use that others can is helpful (such as in Borderlands), on the other hand, when I'm playing solo and have no interest in multiplayer play, unless the items my character can't use sell for a sufficient amount of in-game currency it feels meaningless and in all honesty has the reverse effect on me, making me want to play it less. Maybe that's just because I am a game designer so I readily notice these sorts of things and they turn me off, but that's been my experience anyway. I do agree though, that what you're saying is what the research, as far as I can tell, does say, so I'm not saying its wrong, just that it hasn't really been my personal experience so maybe the truth of it is a bit more complex.
In the same realm of timing payouts, the tones that slot machines emit are specifically chosen to trigger sensations of happiness and excitement in the players. It draws players in and to those most susceptible, keeps them playing.
I don't know if loot boxes are the same as gambling, but the video games industry is counting on it being just like gambling.. Addiction is a great business asset, and a wonderful tool to rob people while pretending not to.
It's always such a shame that research is trailing behind the damage. I'm certain that the company's and "regulators" are fully aware that what they do isn't ethical or healthy. They know the way they treat their staff and customers as well as journalists and governments is beyond contemptuous. They just don't care. The CEO's make millions, or billions, their staff are disposable, they think their customers are idiots (though sometimes we do act like it), games journalists are either corporate mouth pieces or blacklisted and governments are slow to act, easily distracted by baseless moral panick and hung up on technicalities because those "regulators" work for the games industry and make generous campaign donations to further their agendas.
Gambling has been always a frustrating and bad experience for me. Maybe because I know that I won't get anything from it. I quite enjoy flow tho. For example I love to play WoT Blitz (not for the loot boxes or anything, I just enjoy the simplicity of the gameplay) and I find myself in a flow situation where I enjoy this piece of trash game more than I should.
I played video games for over 10 years, the ones with loot boxes and all.. Got out from the depressive gamers life with some help and after half a year of freedom one weekend tried slots for the first time.. Oh boi. There is no way I can trust money to my self ever again. I guess opening loot boxes was just a training for the real gambling. Thanks Geben
Whenever I play slots, I'm really playing with the algorithm. I spend $20 and a couple hours with free drinks watching for patterns and trying to think "if I was a regular person, what would the algorithm expect me to do? What could I do to convince the algorithm to let me win this round?" Sometimes I cash out and switch machines to see if my outcomes change whether I use the slip they print out or cash I could go to the bar and drink there, or I could spend that money on slots and have entertainment AND the drinks
Hank. I used to work for a casino. I've seen horrible things. I don't think I will change the world/gambling addiction but what is that number to talk about the horrible gambling thing?
The ridiculous thing about "pay to win" video games is that you don't actually need to pay for anything to play or win - they capitalize more on impatience. Players don't want to actually play the game, they just want to smash their opponents as quickly and easily as possible. I played a couple popular mobile games and never spent a penny, but competed satisfactorily. I definitely experienced the addictive nature of these games, as they kept me signing on daily for hours at a time to complete the multitude of scheduled tasks for rewards. Once the rewards are collected the player thirsts for more to get their characters over the edge to the next level. The solution is to pay for the extra rewards and possibility for immediate advancement. Some people justify it as a nominal fee for a bit of daily fun, but after you add up a few dollars per day it sums to $100+ per month. Ordinarily a person would only pay $5 - $10 total for the privilege to own a computer game - but now they are forking out $1000+ per year just to play a game. I quit playing out of distain for the amount of time I spent on the games - and the increasing complexity of the game mechanics. The game developers kept adding more mechanics for increasing the power and ability of characters, and of course, this added more opportunities for the player to pay to gain advantage over these extra features.
I don't go to the casinos, but my hometown has one and I looked around and it was depressing. Old people literally with their oxygen tanks on the stool next to them. Just wasting time and money while breathing disgusting smoky air.
I'm addicted to slot machines and they have destroyed my life. I go in and think I'll only spend X amount and leave broke. Unable to pay bills or buy food. I just lost all my money yesterday on slot machines and the depression , frustration and anger I feel at myself is so intense I can't function at any normal level at all. I have noticed a major correlation between taking Xanax and playing till I have nothing left so from now on if I'm taking Xanax, zimmos or Valium I am making sure I've no access to money. I have a very difficult week ahead again now cause I took extra meds and thought I could control myself.
while this is obviously troubling, I find these studies absolutely fascinating. It shows us just how easy we are to fool. The fact that more people bet on dice rolls if they get to roll (rather than just having them rolled by a machine) is utterly bizarre, because of how obviously wrong that is. I always cringe whenever i hear coworkers say things like "you gonna play to win" when it comes to gambling, as if there is any strategy in any of these games. Unless you are gambling against other humans, you are always playing a losing game. The best defense against this is education. The more we understand about our own behavior, the easier it is to guard against tricks like these. As a wise man once said "The person who thinks he cannot be fooled, is the easiest person to fool".
you should go watch the "let's go whaling" lecture, it immediately starts by saying "we will leave the ethics of it on the side for now, let's focus on psycologically manipulating people into spending as much as possible"
Really, this goes for virtual rewards for virtual currency, too. One very complex game was "Hogwarts mystery" of the Harry Potter world. Introductions were all well and good, but the story didn't happen till "third year." The storyline was so bogged down in the play of the game. (same classes, same actions, same rival harangueing you till it's like you're physically beat up each time you play.) The fun stuff didn't happen very often, though you could make it happen more often if you paid real money for the virtual currency. I could probably put the elements of the storyline in a fifty-page book half the dimensions of the average 200-page SF book. The first Harry Potter book is three times the size of an SF book, and the second one is five times. And the rest are bigger. And Warner Brothers doesn't need anybody's money; they get enough from their moviegoers.
Lotteries are fixed. The lottery company knows how many winners they send to each outlet, they know the odds of a payout happening. The more people having the same winning number, the less the individual winner gets, because the lottery company is not going to pay out the same amount to each winner. And if no one picks the winning number (they can tell the odds by how many play), then the lottery company shrug their shoulders and say, "Sorry about your luck," and keep the money themselves instead of looking for another winner. And if a vendor posts that they hard a winner, that's a heads up that the odds of getting a win there has decreased. Ultimately the games are meant to separate people from their money.
Ginny Jolly, actually under the Mega Millions and Powerball they don’t ever “keep it all for themselves”, because that wouldn’t be profitable in the long term. They take a cut of every win in taxes and pay employees of their groups. Most of it either rolls over to another bigger win later (thus enticing more people to pay into it and get more money out) or is won and paid out (with a cut taken from in taxes). It’s also meant as a way to pay money into the government as taxes considering lottery tickets are from a non-profit government organization. They even advertise the lotto by saying that proceeds go into the education fund (and to help children because of that. This is a draw because of how people care for children and it gives them a moral reason to buy in). Also, they don’t know. The ticket numbers are either randomly selected by the machine or picked by the one purchasing the ticket in the store that sells them. Maybe scratch-offs are like that though considering those come with the numbers printed on them already.
They say the slots are programmed to give back a certain percentage and the higher you bet the higher that percentage is. Ask yourself what the percentage is of people who lose their entire bankroll to the casino and leave broke to the percentage of people who actually leave the casino with more money than they started with and you have the true percentage. True percentage is on a good day 3% of people will win, on a bad day 0% will leave winners. So your true odds of winning are 0 to 3%. If people understood the true percentages they wouldn't risk their money.
""""""Suprise Mechanics"""""" tend to exploit the exact same mechanisms that make gambling what it is. Just because it doesn't look like gambling on the face of it doesn't mean i isn't.
Just one minor complaint. you used micro transaction as interchangeable with lootboxes at one point. Which is not the case especially for the topic of this video. Lootboxes or "surprise mechanics" are the term for the random stuff. Micro transactions on the other hand can be perfectly fine as they just describe "paying a small amount". I think we can all agree that buying a pack of gum for 1$ and pulling the lever for 1$ are totally different things in this context. Both are microtransactions, but only one is -gambling- a surprise mechanic.
"Dark Flow"? Isn't...isn't that literally just describing addiction? Maybe I'm not understanding fully, but "dark flow" just sounds like some sort of magical term just for the kicks & giggles. Now "dark flow" is gonna be in my mind when I think of flow state & how awesome it is. Dark flow is literally going to ruin my flow because of its magical curse that can only be broken with the potion of "banishing-the-scientists-coming-up-with-ridiculous-unnecessary-terms-for-things-we-already-have-terms-for".
No, dark flow is not addiction. Dark flow is just flow, but for things that impact you negatively, like pulling a lever repeatedly while gambling your money away. If flow is not addiction, dark flow is not addiction either. Addiction is a psychological and physical inability to stop consuming a chemical, drug, activity, or substance, even though it is causing psychological and physical harm. Flow is not the inability to stop. People who are in a (dark) flow state but not addicted can stop when they want to. People who are addicted can not stop. I hope that cleared things up for you, DragoNate. If not, then I encourage you to look the definition of flow.
@@Supernoxus Thank you for the explanation, it makes a lot more sense now. Flow is something I've experienced before & I regularly strive for. I never thought of it as being something negative though, but I guess that shouldn't really be much of a surprise. I guess it's just more of a situation of being really absorbed in something, regardless of whether something positive or negative. Thanks!
Slot machines make me feel empty and I hate them and any sort of gambling like that with a machine, lottery tickets on the other hand... I almost feel like slot machines feel like a waste of money because it's based on timing and every random # of tries get a win while for lottery tickets it feels more like luck as if somehow you will pick and play the correct numbers like a premonition.
Yeah loosing on slot machines is the worst feeling. Specially when you dont have money left and walk out of the Casino...feels like you got tricked by some shady dude
I'm so sorry, Hank. This is a really interesting video, but I kept getting distracted by how the color of your t-shirt messed with the green screen effect, and made it look like the editors had pasted your head onto someone else's body.
Video games are so often advertised as being "...the most addictive game...". In what other industry is addictiveness seen as a good thing? Does the tobacco or vaping industry advertise as being addictive? Coffee? Alcohol? Gambling? If any of these things advertised on their packages that they are MORE addictive than their competitors there would be all kinds of social and political backlash, but for some reason, as for many of the negative aspects of gaming, they are seen as a boon. And we let them get away with it. Video game industry, particularly online multiplayer video games, are a very perilous and lawless place right now. Our laws and politicians - 90% of whom do not even have smartphones - need to catch up with the technology and do their jobs of protecting their citizens.
YES! Puzzles are my thing and a good puzzle game does all this. But the minute it takes me too long to beat a puzzle i just delete the game. So what does that same about me? Also, too much extra bs to get to the puzzle kills it for me
I'm really happy to hear this spoken outside of typical games media journalism, and all without alienating the practice of gaming as a hobby? Good stuff, made me smile genuinely, as someone who regularly clocks in many hours.
Lame
Gotta spend more money. I am still missing both Stealth Olivia (SS tier) and Muscle Hank (SSS+ tier) characters to complete entire collection.
I got a holographic muscle hank first try.
People who go to casino’s want to gamble. People who play games don’t. Removing loot boxes will be beneficial to everyone except maybe EA.
They don't want initially. But like it or not some of them _learn_ to want to gamble. It's more complicated this aspect of wanting, desiring.
Either way I agree this has no use besides giving companies money through exploiting fragile psychological characteristics in the human mind.
@@metametodo I think it's more that they just want to get whatever it is because it's rare/awesome or in some cases, the only way they're going to "win". Some of those gambling mechanics are basically pay-to-win because they give out things that _actually_ put you ahead of others who don't pay.
So I don't think it makes them "learn to want to gamble" just that they're addicted to the game & have no other possible way to get those things.
@@DragoNate *pay to gamble to win* is insidiously distinct
@@Mr.Beauregarde Is it?
@@DragoNate demonstrably
"Dark Flow" sounds like Flo from the Progressive commercials super villain alter-ego name.
She knows you've paid too much on your insurance....you've been a bad, bad, naughty boy. :P
Somehow, I feel that if Progressive got wind of this idea, it would be turned into an actual commercial. And then the internet would draw fan art about it and.... oh. Oh dear.
@@SmeiskAudio the internet will r34 anything
*It's very similar to phone notifications*
Sometimes you have a notification "a reward", sometimes you don't...
It's a lottery! And that's why you just keep checking your phone even though you should be focused on homework.
like clash of clans and other free to wait games. Hey, wake up at 3am to tap this soo you can wait more. little rewards spaced out and if you want more, then pay.
So glad that smartphones and social media weren't around until a few years after I left highschool.
The sad part is that big game publishers know these things, and they are actviely doing this to make more money than they need, preying on children and problem gambleres whom wanted to escape gambling and finding gambling in video games. And of course, thank god for Jim.
Money, right?
well here is the thing regarding kids... they dont have bank accounts/credit cards etc to buy the loot boxes. they have to get that from parents.
@@jaywebb0113 children robbing their parents credit cards is so common that it's even a meme. You're assuming the parents are completely responsible, make good decisions and are aware of everything, that's never a good assumption to make.
@Compulsive Walker
No its not, but then neither is blaming the thing rather than the irresponsibility of the parents, which is a big part of the argument surrounding loot boxes.
Its no different than blaming media for exposing children to adult content, which is what irks me about all this.
A lot the people going after loot boxes for harming children are the same ones who would be quick to point out how media has age ratings. They aren't advocating for them to be restricted to adult ratings like normal gambling, they're arguing for them to be banned outright "for the children" because they don't like it.
An AO rating would sort things out just fine, and those who don't want them can just avoid the games just like they would avoid casinos.
@@ZombieBarioth it definitely is different from censoring media for contentious content.
A nude person doesn't harm a soul, the basis for censoring adult media is conservatism, religion, and nothing more, if you'd like to avoid this content from your kid okay, but it's just your opinion and costumes, it's not something that affects everyone pretty equally, it's a matter of opinion and preferences.
However, criticizing gambling cricles is based on psychological studies (as you can see which comment section we are in), and psychology affects and involves every single human, making vulnerable from babies to elderly, psychology isn't affected by opinion, and is way more studied and scientific than any conservative stances. So the harmful effects of gambling is a serious matter.
It's not the same at all. The first is a matter of opinion and costumes, the second is a security matter because we humans cannot avoid being vulnerable to this, so there has to be a responsibility from the part of the game itself and its creators/administrators.
It's fascinating that some companies are going for "well, we're completely removing loot boxes then" and others are "you know what we need to change? Let's call it a _surprise_ _mechanic_ and add a virtual slot machine in the game"...
Game companies: There isn't enough research on surprise mechanics yet!
-literally puts in a slot and pachinko machine so old research can apply now
Everyone: shows a mountain of research and evidence damning gambling mechanics
Game companies: "we disagree with the interpretation of the research and evidence"
- Creates a game trailer that's 20% gameplay and 80% slot machine.
"Hooked kids up to slot machines"
*An Ethics board would like to know your location*
Hooks the Ethics committee, too.
...continues scrolling through social media...
curse you dark flow
Join the dark side @kujmous
Me: What can slot machines can tell us about our brains? Is that even possible?
SciShow: You bet!
lol I see what you did there >.
Love how the show just encouraged whistle-blowing on dubious research to keep people gambling in video games 👍
@no no It is regarding the last part of the video where they say there are places to reach out to if you find unethical research regarding lootboxes being done in the workplace. I was also confused at first :p
Aaaahhh, I came looking for this !
And me too!
I will never gamble.
Because I know I have an addictive personality. Any video game with a randomized reward that lets me try again and again will have me hooked for hours or even days of soft-resetting to get what I want. A good example is shiny pokemon. Or loot drops in Diablo.
And there are people who dosen't know and they can fall into the trap of gamiling in (ESRB E or PEGI 3) games, or children who dosen't realize that tis uses real money. And just imagen that Bobby requireing you to pay for loot after a boss in diablo.
Ive been gaming for years and the lootboxes are a cancer in our community. We all hate it, and greedy companies know that, so they hide it behind jargon to get away with it.
If anyone doubts me look up NBA 2k20. It litterally had people playing slot machines to get players they want, ans the game is rated for EVERYONE. So your 8yr old kid can litterally pay money to play slot machines. And its even worse than real life slot machines cause there is absolutly no chance to get that money back.
Monetization in general is a cancer in the video game industry. Rather than put any actual effort into quality games people will be happy to buy and play, many of the largest publishers put out games that test players' patience to push them towards spending more money. It doesn't matter to them if they anger the gaming community with these because they only care about keeping the "whales" hooked and spending - regardless if those people can afford to keep spending or can even help themselves.
Hey, I'm a game developer, background in video gamedev, but I now work in the casino gaming industry:
Casinos actually hate being compared to video game loot boxes, because loot boxes are much much worse and more manipulative than casino gambling.
All gambling games (table or video) are made and heavily-regulated so that the odds never change. You have the exact same chances of winning any game you would ever play; same odds of a jackpot, same odds of a near miss, same odds of a royal flush or a two pair or whatever it may be. It's literally illegal to do otherwise. A slot machine or casino card game has no memory, it doesn't know or care when you last won or lost, or who is even playing.
Whereas loot boxes in AAA games or mobile games are NOT random, they do NOT have the same odds of winning each time. A casino game is a fair roll of the dice, but a loot box is not a roll of the dice despite the game publishers want you to think they are. Loot boxes are an algorithm, specifically tailored to each player to maximize their revenue generation. A loot box knows when you last won or lost, it will intentionally do near misses to trigger your brain, it will change the "odds" unfairly to maximize its manipulation of the user. Microtransaction sales are the worst of this, as these games will individually create sales per user according to their adaptive algorithm, specifically offering sales on the digital items it knows you want at the price it believes you're most likely to make a purchase at when it thinks you're most vulnerable to this kind of sale offer. Digital goods don't actually cost anything for the publisher to sell, all price is artificial, and will be tailored for maximum manipulation.
So yeah. If you tell a casino game designer or casino manager that AAA game loot boxes are gambling, those casino people will be very offended, as casino stuff (while designed to take money of course) are far less slimey 😅
This is the video on gambling/loot boxes that we need years ago! Thank you very much for expanding on the specific psychological pitfalls for problem gamblers.
So this is why I can't stop thinking about cherries!
Thank God for Jim Sterling.
Looks like "surprise mechanics" to me!
The whole “even if your ‘strategy’ is pulling a lever” thing made me unexpectedly crack up.
Natasha Dow’s Addiction by Design is a great book if you’re interested! If I remember correctly, it’s more of an ethnography about slots in Vegas than psychology, but still interesting.
thank you for this episode. it really never peaked my interest, but i´m glad i saw this. because, as a child of the 80s, i used to play - and to an extent still do - computer games and i had noticed how much empty time i was investing, that would be more beneficial for studying or working. i still play games recreationally, but i really noticed how many many games over the years adapted their online game offerings to encompass such small items, that get you hooked. at the end of the day, you are investing small in game purchases - it´s really not a lot of money you lose, but that small investment of money, keeps you from quitting the game and do something more productive or entertaining, because you are being conditioned to want to reach that daily goal, that daily perk, this weekly or monthly accomplishment. and all you really do is, spending hours infront of a display, moving shiny objects around, smiling and more often than not cursing at your opponent.
now isn´t that nice for entertainment!
Oh god, dark flow perfectly explains so many of my useless distractions (common with my ADHD). Interestingly, my father is a pathological gambler, and it's his side of the family with all the ADHD (he shows symptoms himself too). This makes me want to look more into ADHD and pathological gambling symptoms. There are higher rates of addiction in those with ADHD than those without, and a big part of ADHD is seeking immediate gratification and differences with dopamine. This video was more interesting than I expected, not that I was thinking it would be boring or anything.
Great video! This really explains how I feel when playing competitive Rocket League. I feel like the matchmaking is setup to induce flow there.
CS:GO had those near misses baked into it because of the way the "slot machine" spun around the dial would just barely tick off a valuable item before landing on an item that isn't as valuable.
You should have left a link at 7:20 for those potential whistleblowers (i know its technically being a leeker)
The "flow" and "wired" state you experince while doing things like gambling, speeding, extreme sports, drug taking, drinking, smoking, some video gmaes and movies is awesome. And very hard to obtain in other activities. And it require a lot of effort and focus to achieve doing non risky or pleasurable experiences. But if you manage to obtain it to study or work you will almost certainly become rich and sucessfull.
I don't have addictive personality. Everything becomes boring, quickly.
You can tune (and slot companies do) the reels to have more 'near misses' to take advantage of people's idea that a near miss is better than any other miss. There are also partial wins (where you get less than the bet back) that work on the same sort of principal.
fun and engaging surprise mechanics!
What does it say that I find slot machines brutally, *insufferably* boring?
Probably that you're a functioning member of the human race.
I watched this video in the morning and when I went out to get coffee my mom told me I have a nice alarm (the sound at the beginning). This coupled with the subject of the video gave me the idea to make an alarm out of sounds from a video game I like to make me more excited to wake up. Has anyone else tried this?
I did, how is your progress on your project
@@u.s.isnolongertheworldsgua2188 I never actually did it haha. Thinking back I can't even remember which game I was thinking about, it's been so long since I've played anything. ¡Ahorita tengo curiosidad! Te agradezco por el recordatorio.
Thank you for including the last part about ethics
Slot machines trick you into playing in a number of ways. Yes there are near misses but also false wins, spins in which you do get a win but it’s less than your bet. It’s still a loss overall but your brain is tricked into thinking something good happened and it gets a reward response. The colors, sounds, and graphics themselves allure players to keep playing as well. You also many times trick yourself into thinking there is a pattern in the randomness of the spins that doesn’t really exist. You think you can predict when a win is coming but you can’t. And the oldest myth to slots is that if you feed it enough money and play long enough, a big win is certain to come. It just isn’t true.
It's interesting how intermittent reinforcement can be good or bad. Like unpredictability as a flow trigger opposed to gambling. And how it's demonized, even though personally as a ADHDer it has been really helpful in relationships where I'm treated well, otherwise I get utterly bored in 3 months.
I think it's the intention that makes the difference, whether it's to support or selfishly take advantage of. Not that intermittent reinforcement is always abusive.
Also, I used to work for a company that printed lottery tickets. The near miss effect is something the scratch off lottery industry takes full advantage of even though if you think about it there is no such thing as an actual near miss where little pieces of preprinted cardboard with special ink over a scratch area is concerned. But its easy enough to print lottery tickets where you have to match 3 in a row to simulate the idea of a near miss by printing tickets that have 2 out of 3 of the symbols you need nearly exclusively.
Question. What is the difference, if any, between a company that makes drugs as addictive as they can to maximize profit and a company that makes slots as addictive as they can to maximize profit?
Reasons (health, legal, etc.) to stop the companies.
awesome video very interestting
I never knew that gambiling games did that to people and great video man :]
I really liked that little poke at developers to call out predatory mechanics. Hold people accountable and don't let them slip something in at the eleventh hour.
GREAT WORK
There has never been an end of humans trying to live off other humans and gambling is the most mental addiction.
This only is really effective on me when the near miss turns out to have an alternative purpose or use. For example, in a game where I value playing with others, getting something I can't use that others can is helpful (such as in Borderlands), on the other hand, when I'm playing solo and have no interest in multiplayer play, unless the items my character can't use sell for a sufficient amount of in-game currency it feels meaningless and in all honesty has the reverse effect on me, making me want to play it less. Maybe that's just because I am a game designer so I readily notice these sorts of things and they turn me off, but that's been my experience anyway. I do agree though, that what you're saying is what the research, as far as I can tell, does say, so I'm not saying its wrong, just that it hasn't really been my personal experience so maybe the truth of it is a bit more complex.
A standard microscope would be FAR from 'Boring' - and a Stealth Olivia would indeed be 'Legendary'
In the same realm of timing payouts, the tones that slot machines emit are specifically chosen to trigger sensations of happiness and excitement in the players. It draws players in and to those most susceptible, keeps them playing.
There probably is dome nuance there, buying in game currency? Not gambling, loot boxess? Gambling
HANK ITS GAMBLING !!!! Thank you for sharing this information friend
Thank you for this video 💞💕💞
As someone who asked to be barred from casinos, thanks for this video, i learned a lot and will definitely keep staying away from it.
I don't know if loot boxes are the same as gambling, but the video games industry is counting on it being just like gambling.. Addiction is a great business asset, and a wonderful tool to rob people while pretending not to.
You can really apply this slot machine concept to any behavior u want from anything or anyone
The only thing I am addicted to, is gaining knowledge.
What about oxygen?
It's always such a shame that research is trailing behind the damage. I'm certain that the company's and "regulators" are fully aware that what they do isn't ethical or healthy. They know the way they treat their staff and customers as well as journalists and governments is beyond contemptuous. They just don't care. The CEO's make millions, or billions, their staff are disposable, they think their customers are idiots (though sometimes we do act like it), games journalists are either corporate mouth pieces or blacklisted and governments are slow to act, easily distracted by baseless moral panick and hung up on technicalities because those "regulators" work for the games industry and make generous campaign donations to further their agendas.
it's amazing how human brains are wired to enjoy risk, novelty and unpredictability
That schedule of reinforcement thing sounds a lot like positive reinforcement in dog training.
I gotta say, deleting Candy Crush was a relief. Damn Ponzi scheme!
Gambling has been always a frustrating and bad experience for me. Maybe because I know that I won't get anything from it. I quite enjoy flow tho. For example I love to play WoT Blitz (not for the loot boxes or anything, I just enjoy the simplicity of the gameplay) and I find myself in a flow situation where I enjoy this piece of trash game more than I should.
Thanks. I've always wondered why lootboxes or gambling never appealed to me and now I know.
Read Power of Habit by Charles Duhigg folks. There is a whole chapter on this topic
omg i finally get the steath olivia skin!! :OOOO
I played video games for over 10 years, the ones with loot boxes and all.. Got out from the depressive gamers life with some help and after half a year of freedom one weekend tried slots for the first time.. Oh boi. There is no way I can trust money to my self ever again. I guess opening loot boxes was just a training for the real gambling. Thanks Geben
Whenever I play slots, I'm really playing with the algorithm. I spend $20 and a couple hours with free drinks watching for patterns and trying to think "if I was a regular person, what would the algorithm expect me to do? What could I do to convince the algorithm to let me win this round?" Sometimes I cash out and switch machines to see if my outcomes change whether I use the slip they print out or cash
I could go to the bar and drink there, or I could spend that money on slots and have entertainment AND the drinks
Hank. I used to work for a casino. I've seen horrible things. I don't think I will change the world/gambling addiction but what is that number to talk about the horrible gambling thing?
6:08 sounds like my diminished rewards from smoking weed and drinking
Made me lol I feel you
Check out Bill Bure on Conan in 99.
He did a bit about this.
The ridiculous thing about "pay to win" video games is that you don't actually need to pay for anything to play or win - they capitalize more on impatience. Players don't want to actually play the game, they just want to smash their opponents as quickly and easily as possible. I played a couple popular mobile games and never spent a penny, but competed satisfactorily. I definitely experienced the addictive nature of these games, as they kept me signing on daily for hours at a time to complete the multitude of scheduled tasks for rewards. Once the rewards are collected the player thirsts for more to get their characters over the edge to the next level. The solution is to pay for the extra rewards and possibility for immediate advancement. Some people justify it as a nominal fee for a bit of daily fun, but after you add up a few dollars per day it sums to $100+ per month. Ordinarily a person would only pay $5 - $10 total for the privilege to own a computer game - but now they are forking out $1000+ per year just to play a game.
I quit playing out of distain for the amount of time I spent on the games - and the increasing complexity of the game mechanics. The game developers kept adding more mechanics for increasing the power and ability of characters, and of course, this added more opportunities for the player to pay to gain advantage over these extra features.
Aristocrat leisure limited, a major manufacturer of slot machines have designers that knows human psychology so well.
I ban myself from making even a single microtransaction on loot box or gacha. I'm extremely vulnerable to them and know I wouldn't stop....
This explains why I don't play slot machines.
I don't go to the casinos, but my hometown has one and I looked around and it was depressing. Old people literally with their oxygen tanks on the stool next to them. Just wasting time and money while breathing disgusting smoky air.
Plot twist: Those slot machines aren't random. They used science and research to keep us playing it.
They're random, but that doesn't mean they're not scientifically designed to keep people playing them.
As a slot machine developer this is very interesting
Slot machines 🎰 teach us we like shiny things 🔥
Man am I glad that early on, I was a cheapskate that vowed to never spend any real money on in-game currency.
I'm addicted to slot machines and they have destroyed my life. I go in and think I'll only spend X amount and leave broke. Unable to pay bills or buy food. I just lost all my money yesterday on slot machines and the depression , frustration and anger I feel at myself is so intense I can't function at any normal level at all. I have noticed a major correlation between taking Xanax and playing till I have nothing left so from now on if I'm taking Xanax, zimmos or Valium I am making sure I've no access to money. I have a very difficult week ahead again now cause I took extra meds and thought I could control myself.
while this is obviously troubling, I find these studies absolutely fascinating. It shows us just how easy we are to fool. The fact that more people bet on dice rolls if they get to roll (rather than just having them rolled by a machine) is utterly bizarre, because of how obviously wrong that is.
I always cringe whenever i hear coworkers say things like "you gonna play to win" when it comes to gambling, as if there is any strategy in any of these games. Unless you are gambling against other humans, you are always playing a losing game.
The best defense against this is education. The more we understand about our own behavior, the easier it is to guard against tricks like these. As a wise man once said "The person who thinks he cannot be fooled, is the easiest person to fool".
Loot boxes are credited as the biggest gambling mechanism in online gaming, meanwhile, GTA V has a casino.
Well mostly it's publishers forcing developers to implement these mechanics. :(
1:00
1:58
you should go watch the "let's go whaling" lecture, it immediately starts by saying "we will leave the ethics of it on the side for now, let's focus on psycologically manipulating people into spending as much as possible"
If they weren't gambling, the video games industry wouldn't be skirting the legal definitions so much.
Really, this goes for virtual rewards for virtual currency, too.
One very complex game was "Hogwarts mystery" of the Harry Potter world.
Introductions were all well and good, but the story didn't happen till "third year." The storyline was so bogged down in the play of the game. (same classes, same actions, same rival harangueing you till it's like you're physically beat up each time you play.) The fun stuff didn't happen very often, though you could make it happen more often if you paid real money for the virtual currency.
I could probably put the elements of the storyline in a fifty-page book half the dimensions of the average 200-page SF book. The first Harry Potter book is three times the size of an SF book, and the second one is five times. And the rest are bigger.
And Warner Brothers doesn't need anybody's money; they get enough from their moviegoers.
0:37 okay but did you get bullied for not gambling
I can see how "flow" fits within flight simulators, like I can relate to! : p 🇨🇦
Wow his hair really was straight back then, I'm already so used to the chemo hair
Lotteries are fixed. The lottery company knows how many winners they send to each outlet, they know the odds of a payout happening. The more people having the same winning number, the less the individual winner gets, because the lottery company is not going to pay out the same amount to each winner. And if no one picks the winning number (they can tell the odds by how many play), then the lottery company shrug their shoulders and say, "Sorry about your luck," and keep the money themselves instead of looking for another winner.
And if a vendor posts that they hard a winner, that's a heads up that the odds of getting a win there has decreased.
Ultimately the games are meant to separate people from their money.
Ginny Jolly, actually under the Mega Millions and Powerball they don’t ever “keep it all for themselves”, because that wouldn’t be profitable in the long term.
They take a cut of every win in taxes and pay employees of their groups. Most of it either rolls over to another bigger win later (thus enticing more people to pay into it and get more money out) or is won and paid out (with a cut taken from in taxes).
It’s also meant as a way to pay money into the government as taxes considering lottery tickets are from a non-profit government organization. They even advertise the lotto by saying that proceeds go into the education fund (and to help children because of that. This is a draw because of how people care for children and it gives them a moral reason to buy in).
Also, they don’t know. The ticket numbers are either randomly selected by the machine or picked by the one purchasing the ticket in the store that sells them.
Maybe scratch-offs are like that though considering those come with the numbers printed on them already.
I just want slot machines put back in my Pokemon games!
They say the slots are programmed to give back a certain percentage and the higher you bet the higher that percentage is. Ask yourself what the percentage is of people who lose their entire bankroll to the casino and leave broke to the percentage of people who actually leave the casino with more money than they started with and you have the true percentage. True percentage is on a good day 3% of people will win, on a bad day 0% will leave winners. So your true odds of winning are 0 to 3%. If people understood the true percentages they wouldn't risk their money.
Scishow Hanks my brain
""""""Suprise Mechanics"""""" tend to exploit the exact same mechanisms that make gambling what it is. Just because it doesn't look like gambling on the face of it doesn't mean i isn't.
Psych major I can confirm this is taught in psych class, a whole lot
Just one minor complaint. you used micro transaction as interchangeable with lootboxes at one point.
Which is not the case especially for the topic of this video.
Lootboxes or "surprise mechanics" are the term for the random stuff.
Micro transactions on the other hand can be perfectly fine as they just describe "paying a small amount".
I think we can all agree that buying a pack of gum for 1$ and pulling the lever for 1$ are totally different things in this context.
Both are microtransactions, but only one is -gambling- a surprise mechanic.
"Dark Flow"? Isn't...isn't that literally just describing addiction? Maybe I'm not understanding fully, but "dark flow" just sounds like some sort of magical term just for the kicks & giggles.
Now "dark flow" is gonna be in my mind when I think of flow state & how awesome it is. Dark flow is literally going to ruin my flow because of its magical curse that can only be broken with the potion of "banishing-the-scientists-coming-up-with-ridiculous-unnecessary-terms-for-things-we-already-have-terms-for".
No, dark flow is not addiction. Dark flow is just flow, but for things that impact you negatively, like pulling a lever repeatedly while gambling your money away. If flow is not addiction, dark flow is not addiction either.
Addiction is a psychological and physical inability to stop consuming a chemical, drug, activity, or substance, even though it is causing psychological and physical harm.
Flow is not the inability to stop. People who are in a (dark) flow state but not addicted can stop when they want to. People who are addicted can not stop.
I hope that cleared things up for you, DragoNate. If not, then I encourage you to look the definition of flow.
@@Supernoxus Thank you for the explanation, it makes a lot more sense now.
Flow is something I've experienced before & I regularly strive for. I never thought of it as being something negative though, but I guess that shouldn't really be much of a surprise.
I guess it's just more of a situation of being really absorbed in something, regardless of whether something positive or negative.
Thanks!
@@DragoNate I am really happy to hear that it helped. Thanks for the reply.
Slot machines make me feel empty and I hate them and any sort of gambling like that with a machine, lottery tickets on the other hand... I almost feel like slot machines feel like a waste of money because it's based on timing and every random # of tries get a win while for lottery tickets it feels more like luck as if somehow you will pick and play the correct numbers like a premonition.
Yeah loosing on slot machines is the worst feeling. Specially when you dont have money left and walk out of the Casino...feels like you got tricked by some shady dude
I'm so sorry, Hank. This is a really interesting video, but I kept getting distracted by how the color of your t-shirt messed with the green screen effect, and made it look like the editors had pasted your head onto someone else's body.
If you want to study gambling, then go study Chucky Cheese and the customers.
Video games are so often advertised as being "...the most addictive game...". In what other industry is addictiveness seen as a good thing? Does the tobacco or vaping industry advertise as being addictive? Coffee? Alcohol? Gambling? If any of these things advertised on their packages that they are MORE addictive than their competitors there would be all kinds of social and political backlash, but for some reason, as for many of the negative aspects of gaming, they are seen as a boon. And we let them get away with it. Video game industry, particularly online multiplayer video games, are a very perilous and lawless place right now. Our laws and politicians - 90% of whom do not even have smartphones - need to catch up with the technology and do their jobs of protecting their citizens.
I want the Dr Turtleman skin
Dark matter, dark energy, and now dark flow! When will the darkness stop!?
"Dark Flow"? You mean Autistic Flow, right? My "special interest" is a curse because of it.
YES!
Puzzles are my thing and a good puzzle game does all this. But the minute it takes me too long to beat a puzzle i just delete the game. So what does that same about me? Also, too much extra bs to get to the puzzle kills it for me
It means you get in the flow with puzzles, but if it takes to long it breaks your flow (it's being dammed, like a river).
@@Devieus i like that 👍