There's this one kid that goes to my locals who is obsessed with playing floodgates in some capacity. I witnessed him flip every floodgate up at once against me, including Super Ancient. I was playing Branded that day. Managed to out the Super Ancient and go full combo and win because I straight up didn't care about any other floodgate at that point. I am a stun hater. Decks like Runick Stun and Fossil Dyna Stun are actively unfun to play against. However, I acknowledge that combo decks are at the opposite side of the spectrum where there's so many moving components that there's not really a "good" point of interaction and only a "best" point of interaction. And there's Branded somewhere in the middle of that where they go full combo just to stun their opponent with a Puppet on top of a Mirrorjade and multiple interrupts. And, honestly, some of the most interactive games I've had have been against decks like Labrynth.
I wonder how YGO players would feel watching the life drain out if someone's eyes when they played against the 2019 UW Control in modern. It was like Runick Stun + Mystic Mine, but you can never draw out, have up to 10 main deck counters (negates), and ways to recast them from grave, and multiple board wipes, and a way to have every card you draw activate an exile (banish), so they can never strick anything. I loved playing that deck, but I think multiple people temporarily quit because of it.
"The combo players cries as he combos you" There's really no difference going second against stun as it is going second against combo. If anything stun is weaker to board breakers.
There is a difference. Against the stun player, there's 44:30 left on the clock when turn 2 starts, against the combo andy, there's like 5-10 mins of the time already up, possibly more depending on the combo deck.
I've always liked archetypes with built-in backrow removal for the stun matchup. Deskbot 005, Kozmo Sliprider, Dragonpit Magician, D/D Orthros... Stun is a matchup and meta decks tend to be weak to it. That's how it is.
2:24 Okay but I feel like planking may be a bad example, considering the Melee community eventually made rules against stalling indefinitely with planking, and that Smash games after Melee specifically nerfed ledge invulnerability to the point where it's essentially not possible to plank anymore in Ultimate. Even in fighting games, a genre known to be hyper competitive and sweaty, the community and developers still want the games to feel fun to play/watch. Just because a strategy is on paper has answers (ie wobbling to use another Melee example) doesn't mean it good for the health of the game. Sometimes things are just badly designed, and the best thing for the health of competition that the strategy be banned.
Pretty much. Most meta decks have better set up now with 1 card combos, more consistent ways to get them out, and harder to deal with than even some banned stunned cards like Mystic Mine For example, a Yubel backrow which can be started with just 1 card, such as Opening of the Spirit Gates, can set up several Yubel fusions, negates, draw into hand traps, draw into back row help, set up the graveyard, all while some cards like the Yubel fusions can come back from the graveyard, Masq and Little Knight all from 1 card and a deck that capitalizes on it Mystic mine has 1 viable searcher, no way to get it out unless you play a lot of draw otherwise, a build in destruction effect, and meta staples that remove it such as HFD, which there is more backrow removal now than Mystic Mine has ways to get it out, plus 3 copies of each card that can (Being 6 total with demise of the land) Don't listen to combo players, they basically just run stun/lockdown decks with extra steps and refuse to admit it
@@Topbeehler nope, I play voiceless voice, I set up 2 to 3 interruptions, and you are expected to play through my castle of defense, but if I go second, I have 2 to 3 ways to get to my play, through interruptions Stun sits there with one guy and defends it forever with multiple protections for it, and loses if you have any way to out the floodgate on legs immediately as they have no follow up besides hope they draw moon mirror shield to win through beat sticking Stun wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for cards like decisive battle of golganda, then it wouldn't be as much of an issue Hit consistency for meta, hit protection for stun, hit the floodgates for stun if it's too generic and blankety
@@gregnog8119 man I too create boards with around 4 interruption and even if I go second I can technically squirm my way out of it, but you cannot say to me that the strongest meta deck are not combo deck with extra step, they can negate or destroy your shit continuously, how is that not a stun!? For definition, stun imply your opponent is prevented to play, and if I cannot do shit because my opponent have 4 monster that negate, one impermanence settled and maybe some other bullshit settled that is certainly a stun. And God help me if you use the "DraW ThE OuT" shitty excuse I will explode, I have 3 impermanence, 2 vailer and 3 ash in the deck, NOT ALWAYS THEY ARE I THE FIRST 5 CARDS!!! Sorry for the runt...... I am just so sick of seeing a coin flip and thinking "well....... I am fucked" if I lose it.
11:00 hard disagree, playing stun as your introductory deck is the worst idea ever, every single time i've seen a new players start playing with stun they disappear after a few weeks / locals, it teaches you nothing about how modern yugioh works and it doesn't help you understand how to interact with the opponent's deck better than any other deck ever, wasting an I;P masquerena or a solemn strike is literally the same thing, but playing stun you won't play cards you will play if you play any other deck ever like ash, veiler, imperm etc... Your turn also lasts 10 secs while your opponents combos for minutes if you don't open the right floodgates so you start getting bored out of your mind and wanna quit the tournament from round 2. It's the same thing as players starting with goat/edison, I've never seen someone make a transition from time wizard to standard because they won't understand the appeal of modern yugioh, the best decks to start playing imo is decks like branded who have a degenerate wincon like gimmick puppet that requires at least to learn how your deck and combos work (things that are much more important when you start than interacting with the opponent, I know, kinda sad but true) , it also won't resolve every single game forcing you to play a standard game of yugioh which are usually the most enjoyable long term, simply put you're gonna get bored of winning by flipping skill drain every game sooner or later, again this is based on my experience, maybe i'm full of shit but I've seen this pattern many many times before
I imagine Voiceless wouldn't be too hard for a new duelist as well. I started with Traptrix last year and had a blast! It's unfortunately not competent. The tale I've been seeing is a duelist putting all their funds into rouge tier decks and getting dunked almost every time. The good stuff being out of price range. Eventually disappearing
@@cheesycheese7100 ye choice of deck for someone starting is very hard and it changes from format to format, you don't want something so underpowered you constantly lose but usually top decks cost too much and are also hard to pilot, rn decks like branded, voiceless, melodius and chimera are cheap and decent enough choices to start
@MassimoParadisi95 the reason players leave is not due to stun. It's a mix of the game being extremely difficult, stupidly expensive, plus the community isn't very welcoming to new players.
@@kimjung-un8204 so imagine ur a new player in md a cheaper game, and u get hit by runick stun after a game of snake eyes. how the fuck would u want to stay
All the meta decks are just stun with extra steps so lets be real here lol I play stun, and i wish the deck was as broken as people make it to be, its a very bricky deck in general, and i play it because i sincerely dislike seeing people spend 10 minutes playing their board Turning off their entire deck by a monster that says “you can’t special summon” is a high i will always love because i don’t need to waste time, they either draw the out or they scoop, we both save time , when they do draw it i scoop , we both win by saving time Although I’m migrating to Tenpai, and will love always going second and turn off their entire deck then 30k damage summoned skull dragons deck beatsticks lol Btw i would love for older formats to be a mode in master duel to make it more accessible but that makes sense and komoney doesn’t do that
@@fosphor8920 that is subjective, what is objective is that both sides came to be due to the natural power-creep of the game I am still asking yet again for more formats in master duel, and have it be rewarding, and no one would touch stun or combo decks as often , but that won’t print them money “apparently”
If master duel wasn’t a best of one game, it would probably be better in the long run. You can’t afford to run all of the answers for all decks even with a side deck and best of three. But you especially can’t in a best of one.
It's not about running all the answers then. It's about running the best answers for the most relevant situations. Limitations does not mean a worse game
The only issue there (which is mostly an interface problem than a game problem) is that MD is unbelievably slow. Even best-of-1's can take 10's of minutes for games that should be over in 5-7. The animations and notifications take forever. I do agree though that best of 1 is horrible as a ranked format
@@cheesycheese7100 This would be true if this was something like a fighting game where you needed to learn how to play against lame strategies. However, this is a TCG. Running answers for unorthodoxed matchups will actively make the rest of your deck worse. Running answers for the "most relevant situations" means not being prepared for Stun, for example. If you run answers against Stun, that means you're less prepared against meta strategies, since the answers for Stun and Meta don't tend to overlap.
Newcomers should probably try learning "mid-range/hybrid" right off the bat, before you say, oh but mid-range is the hardest style to play/master in yugioh no way is it good for a newbie. Midrange isn't exactly that hard to play, lot of the combos are not as long winded as a typical combo deck, the difficulty comes in making "on the play" decisions and managing resources, card advantage and all that stuff. It can teach new players all the the fundamentals of modern yugioh all at once and get your game mechanics up to speed faster and to top it off you get a lot of really fun back and forth games which is what you want a newcomer to experience more often.
I was ready to hate this video but this ended up being a very nuanced and reasoned opinion piece. Great job. Coming from Magic, I will never hate "Stun" (Stax, as we call it), because it has been a legitimate strategy since the 90's and can serve as a check on degenerate strategies.
As a player that has had every single deck I play get a core piece periodically banned in every list, Electrumite, Halq, Meowmeowmu, Block Dragon, Apo, Savage Dragon, barone, Union Hanger and even Skill Drain getting limited, I subscribe to the idea of "If I can't play my cards, neither can you, eat shit, get floodgated, have a nice day." Can't make 7 negates with Adamancipator anymore, oh well, now I have to make 2 negates and make you play under Abyss Dweller and Fossil Dyna.
The game must have some level of frustration for it to be fun, but playing against stun is just straight up a miserable time. Stun should be replaced by control decks like Labrynth. On the other hand 1 card combos that end up in 7 disruptions must be dealt with too. Konami needs to kill stun and turn down the power of combo decks.
Normally I would be more against stun, however considering top decks need their back row and that’s most of what stun is, people should be playing more back row hate.
the reason planking is problematic is because the characters that can abuse it dont play the same game as the rest of the cast. Jigglypuff incurs next to no risk due to her amount of jumps and she can interrupt your second jump leaving you in a purely negative off-stage scenario. Melee's Ledge mechanics are the fundamental flaw here in how they refresh invincibility always upon regrab. Outside of that, I don't really mind playing a camping jiggly because I'm simply the better player anyways. She just has a lot of DI skillchecks that will destroy fastfallers unaware of her gameplan. One character i do find incredibly stupid is NTSC Sheik.
there's no difference between stun and an enboard with a bunch of negates except that people run enough answers for the latter main deck and don't run the answers to the former in enough ratio
The key difference between facing stun and facing combo is pretty simple: you can't bait floodgates. If you don't have the answer, you lose. While the latter can also be true against combo, you can always trick your opponent into spending some negates before really committing. Against stun, that possibility simply doesn't exist. You look at your hand and know the outcome *without having to play*.
as a stun player, nothing is funnier than outstunning my opponents stun deck. i dont think its healthy for the game though and none of my friends like playing against me anymore so i just watch them play against each other on edo and masterduel. they play combo decks and very non meta things like kurikari, swordsoul, and dinos.
I mostly play combo decks nowadays and hate playing against Stun. However, I am a hypocrite and play stun from time to time when I want to mix things up at my locals. Stun belongs in Yugioh. I think stun is the least fun when higher power decks use it, like Snake Eyes using Skill Drain and such. Fossil Dyna stun or Runick Stun are just fine and have their weaknesses. I'd much rather play against a deck that folds against a single imperm or a harpies than a deck that I have to remove their skill drain then their giant board.
@@KashtiraFenrir I tried Runick Stun once at locals and I regretted it after the first round. The deck is miserable and it makes your opponents miserable. I don’t understand how sitting across someone that is getting progressively annoyed is fun for anyone, but stun players seem to get a sense of glee from it.
@@BanditToolsI played runick spell book at my chill locals and everyone hated it.(Used spell book judgement to summon Jowgen) It would be minutes of me doing turns and combos just for my opponent to be awkwardly sitting there. Instantly knew I couldn't do that to them. I've now been playing Paleo pile decks and having much more fun with duelists
Stun is a pretty major skill check for players. Most well made decks have the capability to beat stun if you just stay calm and figure out how to get around floodgates. I played Drytron until Bystials were added to Madterduel, the number of free wins I got from people who had the out was staggering.
@@InfinitoTemporal I'm sorry you think that way. Snash is like a +10 off of 1 normal summon. No card should ever do that on principle. Also theres tons of other cards that prevent special summons the only reason they went after Jowgen specifically is because it was also being used with Sanctifire.
Somebody playing stun literally is playing the game wtf is anyone talking about. Stun players build decks, play cards and eliminate their opps lifepoints they literally are playing the game. And then combo players have outs and they choose not to run them. Yugioh players need to accept that there is and always has been cards that shut down special summon spam, so they need to side in ways around it but some people just don’t know how to adapt
I am not sure what the comments are talking about, the context here is important. This is the DC, this is to get an invite to worlds. Playing whatever one deems to give them the best chance is fair game. Consequently, Konami hitting more floodgate cards is reasonable as they are well over-performing is a good measured response. RUclips combo bait decks are basically the same thing, they can only ever really win going first. > SE ends on 5 million negates > Loses to AG anyways > There's 500 floodgates Just keep banning the ones that are used until the win rate is acceptable. There's a reason all of these other floodgates don't see main stay usage.
Maxx "C" is at 2 in the OCG. The issue with stun in modern Yugioh is that it runs so counter to most other normal decks in the format that siding for it becomes incredibly difficult to account for in the side deck (unless you're in a meta where a backrow heavy deck like Labrynth or Fire King Snake Eye is the deck to beat). This is especially true with lingering floodgates that don't have to remain on the field since unless you can negate the activation, there's no way to feasibly stop it from resolving. THAT ALL BEING SAID, I don't see an issue with stun existing. Its just as much of an important part of this game's identity as combo or even burn, and my only real complaint is that I wish stun ARCHETYPES were more prevalent than Runick piles (and banning Runick isn't going to solve this, Konami will just eventually make another archetype that will abuse these generic stun cards). Like, I want to see people piloting shit like Endymion or Dinomorphia as opposed to shoving a million floodgates into their deck. I'm aware that's not meta right now, but that's what Konami should be aiming towards with future product releases and banlists if they're going to keep stun around because isolating it to an archetype makes it a little easier to side against. The siding issue is primarily why people hate stun, there's no choke points aside from "THANK GOD, I opened my 1 of 3-4 backrow breakers that i sided in" (especially if they flip up something like a Skill Drain and you didn't open any backrow removal in your starting hand because the deck to beat that format is some crazy wombo combo that requires 80 hand traps to stop).
They had kind of a good start with kairyu shin & pacifis, but those decks despite their amazing consistency just cant compare to the power level of normal summon fossil dyna equip moon mirror
I think you brought up a ton of good arguments for stun. I think the main thing people are missing (that are for stun being eliminated) is that master duel can just be not fun. Konami can let us sit on a really unfun meta for what feels like forever, and that's a problem for current players. And the reality is that this is the main product people will turn to to play yugioh now, a new player will not stick around because of a factor of issues, stun probably ranking 7th among the top reasons. If you play meta, your combo will be an uninteractable cutscene and the new player who picks up a jank deck will crumble to a singular hand trap or negate. The real answer would be taking a deeper look at the game, address multiple issues, then hit stun. If Konami was cool there would be more avenues to enjoy master duel. Separate official ladders for the most popular formats, like goat, edison, etc. This would naturally funnel some people who play stun into other modes where they could have more fun doing something else
You are living in a dream. Even if they do that, it will be flooded with the same top decks in those formats, even more diverse formats like Perfect Circle format will have mostly samey top decks. Again, this dream of random jank being viable will never come to pass, at worse its delusional. It's why I hate when Ygo Boomers make the same talking points where if it's actually practice, they'll quickly realize how wrong they are, which they will never do
@soukenmarufwt5224 I think you're being fairly dismissive and perhaps missing my point entirely. I'm advocating for different metas solely so other decks can have a chance to shine, and new players have a "lower" power level point to join at. I'm not saying that yugioh was always big monster beat down, there's been plenty of broken stuff in the past. But the level of degeneracy, every good deck being a solitaire strategy. I don't think it's healthy for one player to have all the fun all the time
Stun is less bad in paper, but it's clown world in a BO1. It's why I almost always prefer decks like Fire King that have in-engine backrow hate. You can't prep for it otherwise, because you'll be wishing those Cosmics were Veilers when you lose the coinflip to almost any other deck. They seem to understand that, and keep chipping away at the mountain of stun cards after every Duelist Cup, but it's not going anywhere anytime soon.
As a player who has played all combo, control, AND STUN I hard disagree with ulner's take and i agree with your initial take on stun. If i play stun (and i have like 2 stun decks) it's for a different reason I don't want to think too hard and focus on learning the opponent's deck if i got a bad hand instead of thinking how am i going to win this (in short i play stun not to win, but enjoy myself seeing the opponent gets tilted)
All this boils down to is people getting mad they can't do to the stun player what the stun player did to them. I love how this topic always comes back around and it is always the same.
@@Zenbon111 Please explain the difference between flipping a skill drain/summoning an imano iwato and playing into a board of Baronne, Savage, appolousa? If you say skill, you would objectively be incorrect.
@@scott898586Ah yes, because everyone who complains about stun is playing „Banned-in-TCG-Turbo“, good argument. Tell me, how many of these cards are summoned by Utopia? Cause I’m sure I‘ve never played them in that deck. How many of these Cards are summoned by D/D/D?
@@scott898586 The difference is choice. A less skilled player can still get those omni negates baited or brute force’d through, a floodgate literally demands you fish out a destruction effect through whatever restrictions it forces upon you, with no meaningful decisions made by the stun player, as opposed to the negate player who at least had to choose when to use the negates.
@@lagodeguija5575 Less skilled players are not baiting out 2+ omni negates plus 4 monsters negates, plus having their board interacted with on top of it. Skilled players struggle to do this and this is why some of the generic omni negates are finally banned. It had nothing to do with skill and everything to do using multiple negates as the floodgate to tell the opponent you don't get to play the game.
It is wild to me how restrictive the yugioh community tries to be in regard to play styles. If it’s not a large fuck off combo, it’s largely regarded as bad and inherently not fun because it does the exact same thing as all even remotely competent combo decks with back row instead of monsters. It’s not my fault you didn’t respect back row in your deck building. Seethe. Stun and control strategies belong right alongside combo decks in any card game. Stun strategies specifically are one of the biggest skill checks in a card game, for both sides of the table. It’s simplified to fault. Managing resources is not easy when any one card, no matter where it is, can and most likely WILL determine the entire game 5+ turns before the game is over.
Honestly both stun and combo extremes shouldnt really exist, as both result in non games that is impossible to enjoy except for the winner, and are pretty unhealthy. Both are valid playstyles yes, but the moment they become good they suddenly become a problem which is honestly telling. Take mystic mine for example, they banned it because it had competitive success and was genuinely ruining tournaments for spectators because it outright stopped the game from progressing. Stun as a deck cant really do that since its not actually a good deck, it just sacks people, though theres runick stun which did get runick punished because it was actually effective at what it did. Now if a combo deck can play through negates and set up big boards as well thats also something that needs to get hit by the banlist, you see decks like spyral, infernity and six sams yet nobody really cares because they lose to going 2nd or one handtrap, but basically set up a stun board if that doesn't happen. Those decks being good would also cause an entirely new issue.
Played against a stun player at a local and instantly threw on my airpods. Dude looked so annoyed, but I’m not gonna sit there for a game doing nothing but passing turn. I’ll pass.
Yugioh is so fundamentally broken that I've basically gone from "I hate stun, I hate Maxx C, I'm tired of Baronne/Appo/Savage, Konami messed up the banlist etc" to "Who the hell cares, literally unban everything and see what happens". There's no fix for any of this other than rebuilding the game from the ground up. Is stun toxic? Absolutely. Does it matter when the best decks in the room functionally lock you out of the game anyways through multiple disruptions? Not really. Can a so-called "slaughter banlist" fix it? No, because the next round of releases are just as broken if not more than the stuff that got banned and simply force the next salvo of BS down your throat. The game is broken. Either you like that brokenness or it isn't for you. I can tolerate it to an extent, but I wish we'd stop pretending this is fixable
I disagree that there is no other feeling like it. Playing stun is a lot like playing Zoners in fighting games. Your deck/character is specifically set up to decimate certain playstyles, and every time the opponent loses a neutral state/priority exchange, you laugh as you put another nail in their coffin. Zoners also inspire similar feelings of anger from their opponents, who feel you should be playing more aggressively if youre playing a fighting game
@@Nomorehats Actually it would be more accurate if you said it was like you played Dan in street fighter but he had a 20% chance to become a Boss with super armor and un techable grabs at the start of every match. Sure you COULD beat him but you're probably not going to
Dont get me wrong its great. But its like saying you're can beat too tier characters in elite smash but youre just just cheesing with items rather than actually playing.
@@punchyboi6915 you do realize that the meta that you are talking about do the same thing right? the objective in yugioh is to not let the enemy play: a 1000$ meta deck combo for 15 minutes to stop the enemy from doing anything by negating and destroying every card, a 200$(?) stun deck stop the enemy from playing limiting the option he can make. Both stop your enemy but one takes 15 minutes and the other use an handful of cards.
@Blarpozoom The objective us not letting your opponent reduce your life points to zero. How do you stop this? By stopping your opponent get cards that can do that The 1000$ decks you speak of do this by building up multiple interactions that limit your opponents actions. Specifically, combo decks are the ones that do this. Stun turns of every interaction. Mainly targeting special summoning due to how important it is in current yugioh. Stun stops the aforementioned combo. But also control aggro and mid ranged decks alike due to how many decks rely on special summoning While i won't deny it. Having a cheap deck that's effective is incredibly tempting. But it is also cheap Going turn two against a combo deck. Especially things like yubel unchained. Snake eyes fire king and fiendsmith variants all seem impossible. Even more so with a starting hand. But you are able to play through them. Be it the luck of the draw or the skill of the player. Furthermore, it requires knowledge of those cards to understand how you use those decks and how to get to those combos. Give a newbie a yubel deck, and they'll have a much weaker end board than somebody who doesn't. Stun has no skill. There is no way to play around. It either draw an out or lose. It's entirely luck. And yeah, your games are quicker, but again, it leads back to my first point. You playing Elite Smash, but you're cheesing your way through it. Not really. If you wanna complain about the state of power creep in this game and how stupid something like phantom of yubel or the entire tenpai deck Is bullshit. I'm with you.
@@punchyboi6915 OK let me see if I can explain myself better, let's do an example: I play snake/king and go first, you didn't draw even a hand trap, what will happens is that every card you will play will be stopped. In this case you can say that I am interacting with you but what would you think? I am stopping you from doing anything, how is that different from playing stun? The stun player is playing cards and you are not, same would be against a meta deck, if I go second and didn't draw the out for both deck I am cooked, do you not see that? And in regards to the objective of the game (I play mainly master duel so maybe my view is a little twisted) the amount of game were people set boards and the enemy surrender because they don't have an out is staggering, that is because they know that they cannot even play a card and it would be nagated/destroyed. So yeah, the objective in the end is bringing the opponent life to zero but the meta is doing so by not let the enemy play. And yes, I despise all this one card combo that bring out your deck, it would be fine if the one card combo would not result in 6 negate but we are not there XD
Stun/lock down/stall strategies have always been topics of debate in game where they can exist. And many time they are banned/addressed or not reasonable to play. For the fighting game example, there are ways to infinity stall where an opponent cant get you, but doing that at all is a DQ. The issue with yugioh is unless both players are playing jank desks, play sealed ect. The whole game is "Draw the out, or pray your opponent messes up an interaction" which is why many players are stepping away from yugioh as a whole. I think the reason why people hate stall is the "it to easy" mindset, yes you practically cant go second against a combo deck unless you drew godly, but people fell like the player earned that bord. They beat the habdtraps knew the line and didnt mess it up. Compared to normal Summon, moon mirror sheild set 3 pass. A win from that to most fells less deserved. Call me crazy but what i think yugioh needs is a power reset (which i kmow will never happen) otherwise your going to just bounce for deck Konami want to be good with a splash of playable. And the powerscaling will have to keep growing. Konami should just release a set called "Reawakened Dulist" and say that every card before then is illegal and effectively creat a new format While still having the old format (of not more older formats) Tld: Power keep makes match ups against stall or combo be the same but stall wins tend to fell unjustified
Going up against stun is frustrating. Getting Maxx C and combo on is also frustrating. Yugioh is frustrating. Why are we even playing this game? Oh yeah because stunning your opponent and comboing off is fun. This is just an argument of "if I'm not the one doing it, it's bad."
The issue with stun is the strategy is not strong enough nor is it consistent enough for people to prepare for it. There is no difference between a board of floodgates and an end board that has so many interrupts the opponent can't play through it. The issue is power creep made what's possible in 1 turn so excessive that legitimately setting up a combo locks the opponent out of the game exactly like a stun end board. This could be solved in a few ways. 1 could be the turn 1 player starts with less cards, maybe 3 or the turn 2 player needs more starting cards, possibly 8. Or the turn 2 player could have a mulligan for their hand.
The thing is, though, there are a lot of players who enjoy playing decks like stun or mill. It is a type of deck those players enjoy. My thought is, if you're super upset about stun, include cards that out the issue of stun. That's on you the opponent not the stun player.
Depends on the format if it's master duel than you have no choice because if you did most decks would consist of hand traps and back row hate as 90 percent of its list since each is useless against the other type of deck
@guardianape464 Stun was literally the most popular deck in master duel not too long ago. If that's not a good reason to have outs, then you're just stupid.
@guardianape464 I consider that part of the deck building process. You build based on what you want to accomplish and in a way that allows you to reach that goal. If you don't prepare for things that can cause you problems then that's on you, not the opponent.
Something like Fossil Dyna/Jowgen/Barrier Stun never seemed very good since even going first you probably need something to protect it from battle, probably something to protect it from an effect, and the body itself in your opening hand, and going second it’s notoriously terrible. It shuts itself off from so many good Extra Deck options too. What makes stun most frustrating to play against is when they do draw a combination of cards you can’t play against, but more often than not they either don’t or are going second and auto-losing. Runick Stun and Horus Stun are more insidious because they do use the Extra Deck first for things like Hugin into Fountain or Coach King Giantrainer, and then they use Stun cards, but they’re still relatively weak going second. I don’t see why cards like Runick Fountain, Giantrainer and Saryuja should be able to draw so many cards at once, especially given recurring monsters. But I digress. I see Stun as more of a real-world budget option since you don’t need to buy Extra Deck staples, in Master Duel where it’s UR crafting points I straight up wouldn’t recommend it and don’t think it’s good.
One good thing about Stun is that when you beat a full board meta deck, you’re like “I played well”, and move on But beating Stun is a whole other experience
I dislike that Konami makes it easy for people to waste others' time by keeping stun cards legal that don't let them play. I should be the one not letting people play by taking twelve minute turns in a 45 minute match.
If you have a problem with that come play magic arena standard where red aggro decks can kill you in literally 2 minutes and you won't have barely any counter play against them. :)
If stun is bad for the game because it means "you don't want to play the game" then all the meta combofest and Build-a-board decks are bad for the game because they do the exact same thing stun does (especially when all the generic omnis get involved)
@@Godzillagamr999”just draw the out” is a horrible solution because unlike the anime, you can’t control which or how many of your hand traps or board breakers you draw no matter how well you deckbuild
@@augustgremaud2738 Which is the exact reason that Stun should be banned. Forcing players to play sub optimal cards that they only have a small chance to draw against a deck they see every once in awhile makes Stun feel cheap, unskilled, and RNG based on whether they open their floodgates or not. Yugioh, by nature of being a card game will always be RNG based to some extent, but playing a deck with 12-15 hand traps is far more consistent and prepares you to play against far more decks than sticking Raigeki and dark hole into your deck will.
If stun is not "good" then why would it need to be banned? Nyehehehe 🤪 (This is not a serious comment, I do also wish stun was not considered a necessity)
I think Stun is fantastic for Yu-Gi-Oh, gives not only a way to get past most meta decks, but also allows you to have the most fun, and fun is needed in a TCG. Ik i get tired of getting stomped, and not able to get past overwhelming decks like Tear, Snake-Eyes, Runick, or even Centurian and Tenpai. You all know the feeling. I agree, certain cards can be impactful, and need to be hit, but not everything, everytime.
as a certified stun and stax dickrider shout out to the runick guy in the card art i really relate to him and shout out to my goat winter orb best artifact ever made :3
If there's side decking and back row hate in engine, then I can agree. But 90% of stun is cheesing a game or two because it's suboptimal to have backrow cards in the main deck
I know I'm very much in the minority but after playing stall/stun for years I learned that as much as I enjoyed it I loved playing against it so much more. It has most dangerous game vibes to me. There is enjoyment in breaking a puzzle/prison, winning after slowly bleeding them out on resources, or creating a shields down moment and then dealing the lethal blow. Win or lose I tended to enjoy it, especially when it went down to the wire.
I don't play yugioh, but it's kind of crazy hearing how Stevie talks about what stun does, because that's just....any blue deck in MTG. They'll counterspell your shit, but they have to do it at the correct time, otherwise they just run out and then you run over them in the next couple of turns.
In my Yugioh, the good monster floodgates aren't banned, the strong Spell/Trap removal on Spell/Trap cards like Feather Duster are unlimited, and the floodgates that stop Spell/Traps like Anti-Spell are banned.
Melee implemented an Edge grab limit before you have to go back to the platform ground because it is so toxic and unfair. So even them had done things about it
Tldr: there are fair combos, but not fair stun. If you ban the unfair combos, stun needs to go with them What people fail to realize is that not all combos are created equal. A negate only shuts off 1 of 6 cards in the going 2nd player's hand, so unless the combo sets up 6 negates or more it's possible to power through it, even if you don't draw an out like droplet or dark ruler, and only gets easier to beat if you have those cards. Floodgates, on the other hand, single-handedly stop all of your opponents cards if you don't have the out. You can't beat anti spell on a pendulum deck by sequencing your plays a little better. And yes, there are going to be times where a turn 1 combo does prevent you from playing unless you draw the out, but I want those combo decks gone just as badly as I want stun gone. I'd also like to point out that people play more anti-combo tools than anti-stun cards, because there are significantly more of them. Duster and heavy storm are both limited in master duel, and heavy storm is banned everywhere else, but i can play 3 droplet, 3 dark ruler, 3 raigeki, 3 dark hole, etc.
I play combo but i love my stun brothas they are vital to the ygo ecosystem and some of the grindiest games i play are against runick stun sometimes it gets old opening no handtraps and just losing on the spot.
@@Justaplebxd1998 You can say that about every format. "Oh this is Snake-Eyes sim, Its Yubel Sim, Its Tearlament Sim, Its Labrynth Sim, Its Eldlich Sim, Its Drytron Sim, It's Tri-Brigade sim, It's Halqdon sim. As long as any gamd exists, not just yugioh, there is going to be a strategy that is a cut above the rest and so it will be popular. There will come a time when Snake-Eyes and Yubel aren't meta anymore and you'll say "This game is just [Meta deck] Sim" cause everyone wants to play the good deck.
Lol so true 😂 I sometimes catch people off guard with my Lil treat deck 😂 I haven't seen to many people playing this deck lately I think I played one person out of like a hundred who were playing it
At the end of the day with stun you won't be able to win the ots or regional with stun, but you will make the experience miserable for the opponents that lose the dice roll at the first game. Stun plays not to win, but to make the opponent lose
I don't like floodgates so much, but... The creators of the game allows it because its legal. To reject others for relying in strategies you don't like to play against is to chicken up your ego. Go and tell Stephen Curry to stop shooting three pointers because you prefer in-the-paint scoring despite three point shooting being a legal way to play the game at the NBA. Play with people who aligns with your philosophy if your whining is inevitable. Apart from that, no reason to cry about it because Konami allows it.
But shooting 3 pointers doesn't slow down the pace of basketball. Stun would be the equivalent of stabbing a hole into the ball while the clock ticks down and not getting ejected or the ball being replaced, turning basketball back to the no dribble rules but worse because you're eventually passing around a deflated frisbee. Unless Lebron has a strong patch and an air pump in his pockets to restore the ball in this scenario, every player on the court is not gonna be able to play basketball as it is advertised to viewers and players except Stabby Steve and maybe 1 of his teammates who practiced Basketfrisbee.
@@Mage_Nichlas_, again, you're talking about preferences, PERSONAL PREFERENCES. Do I like to play against floodgates (especially those that denies special summons)? No, and possibly for the same reasons as you have. But the game is what it is thanks to Konami. They have their reasons to keep them, and I believe is because floodgates simplifies the game for those who don't like a complex gameplay. The NBA created the three point line to reward the long range shooting. With that, smaller players could have a major impact on the offense. Then, they created the three second violation to open the paint for the perimeter players, so they can drive to the basket easier. The point of my analogy is that the owners of the game can do WHATEVER THEY WANT WITH THEIR GAME, fair or unfair, reasonable or not. It is up to the consumers, the players, to make a stand and put pressure over them in order to make them understand and change things, if possible.
I have full branded cards, I also have Raid Raptors, drytorn and snake eyes deck ready. But I feel disgusted to myself to waste opponents time with 3 mins combo. I also feel irritated with waiting more than 30 seconds for 1 opponent turn when I know they still can use hand trap or any interuption later. For the past 2 years. I play mainly stun for 1 single purpose ; to actually playa and not watch solitarie on trading card game. I did play combo a lot on a event 30 seconds match not too long ago in master duel. I don't touch stun deck, because I get what I want ; less than 1 min per turn. I play my stun deck again after the event over till now. I probably one of the player who introduced branded + placy (sanctifire summon placy for stun) and I'm proud of it. Like I said again. I don't play stun because I love seeing my opponent in mysery. In play it because i'm disgusted by the game timing. If konami can make game less than 1 min per turn. I won't even need to bother myself with stun deck. Solitaire should never exist on a supposedly TRADING card game.
If you wanna teach somebody new to read their opponent and do the right thing at the right time then play a fighting game where you always have your meterless options, or you can take a fighting game philosophy and analyze a match between two players with that new player. Setting up somebody new with a style that """teaches them to learn the game""" by watching their opponent instead of them learning about what they can enjoy about the game is the wrong way to do it. I think trying to throw someone in the deep end that is Modern Yugioh when they're trying to learn what a Normal Summon is is also just the wrong way to go, so throwing Little Timmy or John from Accounting a Stun Deck and telling them "Have fun." against any Tiered Deck from the last 10 years is a failure.
To get rid of stun they needa get rid of large combo decks that take forever to play and opt for more decks kinda like swordsoul where you can set up a little bit of interaction that can be meaningful in a short amount of time.
It's not good or bad or for the game. It's just another viable strategy that you must learn to play against. Those types of comments throwing hate at stun strategies are simply an accumulation of frustration (and a bit of skill issue), control over the opponent is one of the most iconic play styles, not only in TCGs.
Hope one day Konami limite every hand trap, board wipe and multiple deny card to 1, stop making 1-2 card combo, restrict more the arktypes, give people more routes and play ability, deck building so you might always need 2 arktypes combined to make a full deck, bisede having 10-15 card combo and 30+ staples to making you opponent life miserable. More comeback cards and less degenerate power creep stuff that cost 300-500 dollar's and need 3 copy itch...
yes it is. I WILL be playing protect the castle with jowgen and dyna, and you WILL like it. jokes aside, it's just a playstyle. it might be unfun to some, but it's fun for me :3 also, it's a card game. card games depend on matchups and a lot of random draws, be it engine or non-engine, and sometimes you just can't out a jowgen and lose lmao
I think stun is fine. The reasons why is that some days you just get one bad day. And i feel like i cant verbally express it so ill show it through my deck. If i cant have a good day no one can have a good day.
Only stun i enjoy is true draco with a little monarch engine but stuns main issue in MD is game stalling whereas combo decks are just you either stop them with handtraps/boardbreakers then surrender if not
To me stun is kinda the mosquito of YuGiOh. Encounters with it aren´t fun but it is just a part of the eco system. And if there is suddenly a lot more of it than usual, it will often hint at another underlying problem (usually a particularly deep dissatisfaction with the state of the meta).
I played the DC and got to level 16 after that it is straight up meta or stun and I prefer to play against the stun player. At least they don't take 5+ minutes to set-up a board.
Stalling or prevent your opponent from play especially in competitive games is very common In LoL you have top ranged players In RTS like sc2 you have terrans that turtle for 40 minutes or protoss that cannon rush Stun is not fun for a lot of people like many of those strategies aren't in any game but there is enough players that justify its existance stun players are not a minority and while it's east to shit on stun people forget the positives. Stun is easy to play and in the current ygo format what could you even recommend to someone anything but stun stun is cheap, most stun cards go for pocket change and in the format of bonefires, Little knights, 3x mulchummies and decklists that cost over 1000$ stun is very cheap and fairly viable (to me viable is something that can win with some consistency) And those are also the reasons i think konami keeps printing new stun and floodgate cards without never fully dedicating to banning old ones.
Explain how to learn to play against stun in best of one how do i out rivalry and there can be only one without harpies i beat them sometimes but if you don't out you just have to surrender 😉 how could stun be fun for anyone
If stun is gone they should also do something about decks that summon their entire deck with one card
Oh absolutely true
Yeah, it's called board breakers
@@matthewdalida7170 I mean that is just Yugioh, you cant change that without changing the game at its core.
@@ab2aasd”just draw the out” is a horrible counterpoint.
@@augustgremaud2738 "Stun is necessary to keep combo in check" is a horrible argument
There's this one kid that goes to my locals who is obsessed with playing floodgates in some capacity. I witnessed him flip every floodgate up at once against me, including Super Ancient. I was playing Branded that day. Managed to out the Super Ancient and go full combo and win because I straight up didn't care about any other floodgate at that point. I am a stun hater. Decks like Runick Stun and Fossil Dyna Stun are actively unfun to play against. However, I acknowledge that combo decks are at the opposite side of the spectrum where there's so many moving components that there's not really a "good" point of interaction and only a "best" point of interaction. And there's Branded somewhere in the middle of that where they go full combo just to stun their opponent with a Puppet on top of a Mirrorjade and multiple interrupts. And, honestly, some of the most interactive games I've had have been against decks like Labrynth.
But this bad thing existing must mean stun is good and healthy for the game.
“Maxx c exists, so it must be a good thing”
I wonder how YGO players would feel watching the life drain out if someone's eyes when they played against the 2019 UW Control in modern. It was like Runick Stun + Mystic Mine, but you can never draw out, have up to 10 main deck counters (negates), and ways to recast them from grave, and multiple board wipes, and a way to have every card you draw activate an exile (banish), so they can never strick anything.
I loved playing that deck, but I think multiple people temporarily quit because of it.
"The combo players cries as he combos you"
There's really no difference going second against stun as it is going second against combo. If anything stun is weaker to board breakers.
Also stun is less consistent and can’t go second itself nearly as effectively
That's what I'm saying bro combo is stun with more steps
Insert mental gymnastics meme
Top: Normal Pachy, set Anti-Spell
Bottom: , Normal Cactus Bouncer, Normal Bamboo Shoot
There is a difference. Against the stun player, there's 44:30 left on the clock when turn 2 starts, against the combo andy, there's like 5-10 mins of the time already up, possibly more depending on the combo deck.
Stun is weaker to board breaks but who is playing board breakers over hand traps for the off chance they run into stun?
I've always liked archetypes with built-in backrow removal for the stun matchup. Deskbot 005, Kozmo Sliprider, Dragonpit Magician, D/D Orthros...
Stun is a matchup and meta decks tend to be weak to it. That's how it is.
2:24 Okay but I feel like planking may be a bad example, considering the Melee community eventually made rules against stalling indefinitely with planking, and that Smash games after Melee specifically nerfed ledge invulnerability to the point where it's essentially not possible to plank anymore in Ultimate.
Even in fighting games, a genre known to be hyper competitive and sweaty, the community and developers still want the games to feel fun to play/watch. Just because a strategy is on paper has answers (ie wobbling to use another Melee example) doesn't mean it good for the health of the game. Sometimes things are just badly designed, and the best thing for the health of competition that the strategy be banned.
Isn't all yugioh just telling your opponent 'no you can't do that' until you otk them?
Pretty much. Most meta decks have better set up now with 1 card combos, more consistent ways to get them out, and harder to deal with than even some banned stunned cards like Mystic Mine
For example, a Yubel backrow which can be started with just 1 card, such as Opening of the Spirit Gates, can set up several Yubel fusions, negates, draw into hand traps, draw into back row help, set up the graveyard, all while some cards like the Yubel fusions can come back from the graveyard, Masq and Little Knight all from 1 card and a deck that capitalizes on it
Mystic mine has 1 viable searcher, no way to get it out unless you play a lot of draw otherwise, a build in destruction effect, and meta staples that remove it such as HFD, which there is more backrow removal now than Mystic Mine has ways to get it out, plus 3 copies of each card that can (Being 6 total with demise of the land)
Don't listen to combo players, they basically just run stun/lockdown decks with extra steps and refuse to admit it
@@Topbeehler nope, I play voiceless voice, I set up 2 to 3 interruptions, and you are expected to play through my castle of defense, but if I go second, I have 2 to 3 ways to get to my play, through interruptions
Stun sits there with one guy and defends it forever with multiple protections for it, and loses if you have any way to out the floodgate on legs immediately as they have no follow up besides hope they draw moon mirror shield to win through beat sticking
Stun wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for cards like decisive battle of golganda, then it wouldn't be as much of an issue
Hit consistency for meta, hit protection for stun, hit the floodgates for stun if it's too generic and blankety
@@gregnog8119 man I too create boards with around 4 interruption and even if I go second I can technically squirm my way out of it, but you cannot say to me that the strongest meta deck are not combo deck with extra step, they can negate or destroy your shit continuously, how is that not a stun!? For definition, stun imply your opponent is prevented to play, and if I cannot do shit because my opponent have 4 monster that negate, one impermanence settled and maybe some other bullshit settled that is certainly a stun.
And God help me if you use the "DraW ThE OuT" shitty excuse I will explode, I have 3 impermanence, 2 vailer and 3 ash in the deck, NOT ALWAYS THEY ARE I THE FIRST 5 CARDS!!!
Sorry for the runt...... I am just so sick of seeing a coin flip and thinking "well....... I am fucked" if I lose it.
As a labrynth player, I enjoy when I flip a trap my opponent says "Oh."
That "TRAP FLIP" is just one of the 2 lab specials, you lab players are trash.
NGL i gotta still look into Lab. I've been running Horus but everyone keeps telling me to go Lab. From the sound of it maybe I should give it a go lol
@@Topbeehler Lab is very versatile, so it may depend of your playstyle if you end up giving them a chance...
And remember: Lovely is overrated
@@Jyxero based, real people don't care for huge booba lady...
Now adult aussa the earth charmer is another story
11:00 hard disagree, playing stun as your introductory deck is the worst idea ever, every single time i've seen a new players start playing with stun they disappear after a few weeks / locals, it teaches you nothing about how modern yugioh works and it doesn't help you understand how to interact with the opponent's deck better than any other deck ever, wasting an I;P masquerena or a solemn strike is literally the same thing, but playing stun you won't play cards you will play if you play any other deck ever like ash, veiler, imperm etc...
Your turn also lasts 10 secs while your opponents combos for minutes if you don't open the right floodgates so you start getting bored out of your mind and wanna quit the tournament from round 2.
It's the same thing as players starting with goat/edison, I've never seen someone make a transition from time wizard to standard because they won't understand the appeal of modern yugioh, the best decks to start playing imo is decks like branded who have a degenerate wincon like gimmick puppet that requires at least to learn how your deck and combos work (things that are much more important when you start than interacting with the opponent, I know, kinda sad but true) , it also won't resolve every single game forcing you to play a standard game of yugioh which are usually the most enjoyable long term, simply put you're gonna get bored of winning by flipping skill drain every game sooner or later, again this is based on my experience, maybe i'm full of shit but I've seen this pattern many many times before
I imagine Voiceless wouldn't be too hard for a new duelist as well. I started with Traptrix last year and had a blast! It's unfortunately not competent. The tale I've been seeing is a duelist putting all their funds into rouge tier decks and getting dunked almost every time. The good stuff being out of price range. Eventually disappearing
@@cheesycheese7100 ye choice of deck for someone starting is very hard and it changes from format to format, you don't want something so underpowered you constantly lose but usually top decks cost too much and are also hard to pilot, rn decks like branded, voiceless, melodius and chimera are cheap and decent enough choices to start
@MassimoParadisi95 the reason players leave is not due to stun. It's a mix of the game being extremely difficult, stupidly expensive, plus the community isn't very welcoming to new players.
Not the Gimmick Lock man
@@kimjung-un8204 so imagine ur a new player in md a cheaper game, and u get hit by runick stun after a game of snake eyes.
how the fuck would u want to stay
To me it's like- if your game plan is "unga bunga idc" just play tenpai. It's just as simple if not more and matches take 15 minutes
All the meta decks are just stun with extra steps so lets be real here lol
I play stun, and i wish the deck was as broken as people make it to be, its a very bricky deck in general, and i play it because i sincerely dislike seeing people spend 10 minutes playing their board
Turning off their entire deck by a monster that says “you can’t special summon” is a high i will always love because i don’t need to waste time, they either draw the out or they scoop, we both save time , when they do draw it i scoop , we both win by saving time
Although I’m migrating to Tenpai, and will love always going second and turn off their entire deck then 30k damage summoned skull dragons deck beatsticks lol
Btw i would love for older formats to be a mode in master duel to make it more accessible but that makes sense and komoney doesn’t do that
No, "You cannot special summon" = Much worse than trying to outplay a strong board
@@fosphor8920 that is subjective, what is objective is that both sides came to be due to the natural power-creep of the game
I am still asking yet again for more formats in master duel, and have it be rewarding, and no one would touch stun or combo decks as often , but that won’t print them money “apparently”
If master duel wasn’t a best of one game, it would probably be better in the long run. You can’t afford to run all of the answers for all decks even with a side deck and best of three. But you especially can’t in a best of one.
It's not about running all the answers then. It's about running the best answers for the most relevant situations. Limitations does not mean a worse game
The only issue there (which is mostly an interface problem than a game problem) is that MD is unbelievably slow. Even best-of-1's can take 10's of minutes for games that should be over in 5-7. The animations and notifications take forever. I do agree though that best of 1 is horrible as a ranked format
@@cheesycheese7100 This would be true if this was something like a fighting game where you needed to learn how to play against lame strategies. However, this is a TCG. Running answers for unorthodoxed matchups will actively make the rest of your deck worse. Running answers for the "most relevant situations" means not being prepared for Stun, for example. If you run answers against Stun, that means you're less prepared against meta strategies, since the answers for Stun and Meta don't tend to overlap.
Newcomers should probably try learning "mid-range/hybrid" right off the bat, before you say, oh but mid-range is the hardest style to play/master in yugioh no way is it good for a newbie. Midrange isn't exactly that hard to play, lot of the combos are not as long winded as a typical combo deck, the difficulty comes in making "on the play" decisions and managing resources, card advantage and all that stuff.
It can teach new players all the the fundamentals of modern yugioh all at once and get your game mechanics up to speed faster and to top it off you get a lot of really fun back and forth games which is what you want a newcomer to experience more often.
I was ready to hate this video but this ended up being a very nuanced and reasoned opinion piece. Great job.
Coming from Magic, I will never hate "Stun" (Stax, as we call it), because it has been a legitimate strategy since the 90's and can serve as a check on degenerate strategies.
As a player that has had every single deck I play get a core piece periodically banned in every list, Electrumite, Halq, Meowmeowmu, Block Dragon, Apo, Savage Dragon, barone, Union Hanger and even Skill Drain getting limited, I subscribe to the idea of "If I can't play my cards, neither can you, eat shit, get floodgated, have a nice day." Can't make 7 negates with Adamancipator anymore, oh well, now I have to make 2 negates and make you play under Abyss Dweller and Fossil Dyna.
You sound like a meta slave who picks the tier 0 decks every year and gets mad when the obviously broken combo gets fixed lol
Surprised we didn't get a GGYGO edit where instead of "If you play shifter you're bad at the game" is "If you play stun you're bad at the game"
The game must have some level of frustration for it to be fun, but playing against stun is just straight up a miserable time. Stun should be replaced by control decks like Labrynth. On the other hand 1 card combos that end up in 7 disruptions must be dealt with too. Konami needs to kill stun and turn down the power of combo decks.
Normally I would be more against stun, however considering top decks need their back row and that’s most of what stun is, people should be playing more back row hate.
the reason planking is problematic is because the characters that can abuse it dont play the same game as the rest of the cast.
Jigglypuff incurs next to no risk due to her amount of jumps and she can interrupt your second jump leaving you in a purely negative off-stage scenario. Melee's Ledge mechanics are the fundamental flaw here in how they refresh invincibility always upon regrab.
Outside of that, I don't really mind playing a camping jiggly because I'm simply the better player anyways. She just has a lot of DI skillchecks that will destroy fastfallers unaware of her gameplan.
One character i do find incredibly stupid is NTSC Sheik.
Wait is this SSB
there's no difference between stun and an enboard with a bunch of negates except that people run enough answers for the latter main deck and don't run the answers to the former in enough ratio
or the answer is banned (red reboot)
Yup, that's the only difference whatsoever 💀
Well that’s a very bare bones and vague way of explaining it lol
@@mickjaegar2379 the hell is red reboot gonna do in this meta?
The key difference between facing stun and facing combo is pretty simple: you can't bait floodgates. If you don't have the answer, you lose. While the latter can also be true against combo, you can always trick your opponent into spending some negates before really committing. Against stun, that possibility simply doesn't exist. You look at your hand and know the outcome *without having to play*.
How is stun any different from facing a board of 7 negates after a 30 min combo?
as a stun player, nothing is funnier than outstunning my opponents stun deck. i dont think its healthy for the game though and none of my friends like playing against me anymore so i just watch them play against each other on edo and masterduel.
they play combo decks and very non meta things like kurikari, swordsoul, and dinos.
I mostly play combo decks nowadays and hate playing against Stun. However, I am a hypocrite and play stun from time to time when I want to mix things up at my locals. Stun belongs in Yugioh. I think stun is the least fun when higher power decks use it, like Snake Eyes using Skill Drain and such. Fossil Dyna stun or Runick Stun are just fine and have their weaknesses. I'd much rather play against a deck that folds against a single imperm or a harpies than a deck that I have to remove their skill drain then their giant board.
@@KashtiraFenrir I tried Runick Stun once at locals and I regretted it after the first round. The deck is miserable and it makes your opponents miserable. I don’t understand how sitting across someone that is getting progressively annoyed is fun for anyone, but stun players seem to get a sense of glee from it.
@@BanditToolsI played runick spell book at my chill locals and everyone hated it.(Used spell book judgement to summon Jowgen) It would be minutes of me doing turns and combos just for my opponent to be awkwardly sitting there. Instantly knew I couldn't do that to them. I've now been playing Paleo pile decks and having much more fun with duelists
What do you guys think about the plant decks ending on that Bouncer (no special summon) thing?
@@fosphor8920 Thats a stun strategy, and you're likely to make your opponents upset. Even though you'll likely lose the set against decent decks
Stun is a pretty major skill check for players. Most well made decks have the capability to beat stun if you just stay calm and figure out how to get around floodgates. I played Drytron until Bystials were added to Madterduel, the number of free wins I got from people who had the out was staggering.
>its a pretty major skill check
If only that were true, but thankfully, its not.
Luck check*
It sure is a skill check when I don’t draw droplet or duster👍
"Are you telling me Konami has to ban Jowgen the Spiritualist over Snake-eye Ash."
Uhhhh about that...
Takes that aged like milk instantly :p
Jowgen the Spiritualist is far more cringe and toxic than Snake Eye Ash though, it was a good ban, and Pachy to 1 was an expectable and good decision.
@@InfinitoTemporal I'm sorry you think that way. Snash is like a +10 off of 1 normal summon. No card should ever do that on principle. Also theres tons of other cards that prevent special summons the only reason they went after Jowgen specifically is because it was also being used with Sanctifire.
Somebody playing stun literally is playing the game wtf is anyone talking about. Stun players build decks, play cards and eliminate their opps lifepoints they literally are playing the game. And then combo players have outs and they choose not to run them. Yugioh players need to accept that there is and always has been cards that shut down special summon spam, so they need to side in ways around it but some people just don’t know how to adapt
Basically 1 duel matches just suck, stun isn’t the problem
Combo players are just mad they can't have combo mirrors with the same 3 decks.
I am not sure what the comments are talking about, the context here is important. This is the DC, this is to get an invite to worlds. Playing whatever one deems to give them the best chance is fair game. Consequently, Konami hitting more floodgate cards is reasonable as they are well over-performing is a good measured response.
RUclips combo bait decks are basically the same thing, they can only ever really win going first.
> SE ends on 5 million negates
> Loses to AG anyways
> There's 500 floodgates
Just keep banning the ones that are used until the win rate is acceptable. There's a reason all of these other floodgates don't see main stay usage.
Maxx "C" is at 2 in the OCG.
The issue with stun in modern Yugioh is that it runs so counter to most other normal decks in the format that siding for it becomes incredibly difficult to account for in the side deck (unless you're in a meta where a backrow heavy deck like Labrynth or Fire King Snake Eye is the deck to beat). This is especially true with lingering floodgates that don't have to remain on the field since unless you can negate the activation, there's no way to feasibly stop it from resolving.
THAT ALL BEING SAID, I don't see an issue with stun existing. Its just as much of an important part of this game's identity as combo or even burn, and my only real complaint is that I wish stun ARCHETYPES were more prevalent than Runick piles (and banning Runick isn't going to solve this, Konami will just eventually make another archetype that will abuse these generic stun cards).
Like, I want to see people piloting shit like Endymion or Dinomorphia as opposed to shoving a million floodgates into their deck. I'm aware that's not meta right now, but that's what Konami should be aiming towards with future product releases and banlists if they're going to keep stun around because isolating it to an archetype makes it a little easier to side against. The siding issue is primarily why people hate stun, there's no choke points aside from "THANK GOD, I opened my 1 of 3-4 backrow breakers that i sided in" (especially if they flip up something like a Skill Drain and you didn't open any backrow removal in your starting hand because the deck to beat that format is some crazy wombo combo that requires 80 hand traps to stop).
They had kind of a good start with kairyu shin & pacifis, but those decks despite their amazing consistency just cant compare to the power level of normal summon fossil dyna equip moon mirror
I think you brought up a ton of good arguments for stun. I think the main thing people are missing (that are for stun being eliminated) is that master duel can just be not fun. Konami can let us sit on a really unfun meta for what feels like forever, and that's a problem for current players. And the reality is that this is the main product people will turn to to play yugioh now, a new player will not stick around because of a factor of issues, stun probably ranking 7th among the top reasons. If you play meta, your combo will be an uninteractable cutscene and the new player who picks up a jank deck will crumble to a singular hand trap or negate.
The real answer would be taking a deeper look at the game, address multiple issues, then hit stun. If Konami was cool there would be more avenues to enjoy master duel. Separate official ladders for the most popular formats, like goat, edison, etc. This would naturally funnel some people who play stun into other modes where they could have more fun doing something else
You are living in a dream.
Even if they do that, it will be flooded with the same top decks in those formats, even more diverse formats like Perfect Circle format will have mostly samey top decks.
Again, this dream of random jank being viable will never come to pass, at worse its delusional. It's why I hate when Ygo Boomers make the same talking points where if it's actually practice, they'll quickly realize how wrong they are, which they will never do
@soukenmarufwt5224 I think you're being fairly dismissive and perhaps missing my point entirely. I'm advocating for different metas solely so other decks can have a chance to shine, and new players have a "lower" power level point to join at. I'm not saying that yugioh was always big monster beat down, there's been plenty of broken stuff in the past. But the level of degeneracy, every good deck being a solitaire strategy. I don't think it's healthy for one player to have all the fun all the time
Idk stun is pretty fun in ranked
Stun is less bad in paper, but it's clown world in a BO1. It's why I almost always prefer decks like Fire King that have in-engine backrow hate. You can't prep for it otherwise, because you'll be wishing those Cosmics were Veilers when you lose the coinflip to almost any other deck. They seem to understand that, and keep chipping away at the mountain of stun cards after every Duelist Cup, but it's not going anywhere anytime soon.
As a player who has played all combo, control, AND STUN I hard disagree with ulner's take and i agree with your initial take on stun.
If i play stun (and i have like 2 stun decks) it's for a different reason I don't want to think too hard and focus on learning the opponent's deck if i got a bad hand instead of thinking how am i going to win this (in short i play stun not to win, but enjoy myself seeing the opponent gets tilted)
All this boils down to is people getting mad they can't do to the stun player what the stun player did to them. I love how this topic always comes back around and it is always the same.
Yeah, everyone who hates stun just wants to play it. Genius argument.
@@Zenbon111 Please explain the difference between flipping a skill drain/summoning an imano iwato and playing into a board of Baronne, Savage, appolousa? If you say skill, you would objectively be incorrect.
@@scott898586Ah yes, because everyone who complains about stun is playing „Banned-in-TCG-Turbo“, good argument.
Tell me, how many of these cards are summoned by Utopia? Cause I’m sure I‘ve never played them in that deck. How many of these Cards are summoned by D/D/D?
@@scott898586 The difference is choice. A less skilled player can still get those omni negates baited or brute force’d through, a floodgate literally demands you fish out a destruction effect through whatever restrictions it forces upon you, with no meaningful decisions made by the stun player, as opposed to the negate player who at least had to choose when to use the negates.
@@lagodeguija5575 Less skilled players are not baiting out 2+ omni negates plus 4 monsters negates, plus having their board interacted with on top of it. Skilled players struggle to do this and this is why some of the generic omni negates are finally banned. It had nothing to do with skill and everything to do using multiple negates as the floodgate to tell the opponent you don't get to play the game.
It is wild to me how restrictive the yugioh community tries to be in regard to play styles. If it’s not a large fuck off combo, it’s largely regarded as bad and inherently not fun because it does the exact same thing as all even remotely competent combo decks with back row instead of monsters.
It’s not my fault you didn’t respect back row in your deck building. Seethe.
Stun and control strategies belong right alongside combo decks in any card game. Stun strategies specifically are one of the biggest skill checks in a card game, for both sides of the table. It’s simplified to fault. Managing resources is not easy when any one card, no matter where it is, can and most likely WILL determine the entire game 5+ turns before the game is over.
I agree with this.
Yapping
@@tame1773 I would love to hear your take then so we can have a productive discussion about a game we clearly both enjoy to at least some degree.
@@WolfPackAlpha-sn2sw No
Honestly both stun and combo extremes shouldnt really exist, as both result in non games that is impossible to enjoy except for the winner, and are pretty unhealthy.
Both are valid playstyles yes, but the moment they become good they suddenly become a problem which is honestly telling.
Take mystic mine for example, they banned it because it had competitive success and was genuinely ruining tournaments for spectators because it outright stopped the game from progressing.
Stun as a deck cant really do that since its not actually a good deck, it just sacks people, though theres runick stun which did get runick punished because it was actually effective at what it did.
Now if a combo deck can play through negates and set up big boards as well thats also something that needs to get hit by the banlist, you see decks like spyral, infernity and six sams yet nobody really cares because they lose to going 2nd or one handtrap, but basically set up a stun board if that doesn't happen.
Those decks being good would also cause an entirely new issue.
Played against a stun player at a local and instantly threw on my airpods. Dude looked so annoyed, but I’m not gonna sit there for a game doing nothing but passing turn. I’ll pass.
I'm sure everybody at locals stood up and clapped too.
@@BanditTools i do the same thing against combo players.
@@gearhead6042💀💀💀💀💀💀💀
Yugioh is so fundamentally broken that I've basically gone from "I hate stun, I hate Maxx C, I'm tired of Baronne/Appo/Savage, Konami messed up the banlist etc" to "Who the hell cares, literally unban everything and see what happens". There's no fix for any of this other than rebuilding the game from the ground up. Is stun toxic? Absolutely. Does it matter when the best decks in the room functionally lock you out of the game anyways through multiple disruptions? Not really. Can a so-called "slaughter banlist" fix it? No, because the next round of releases are just as broken if not more than the stuff that got banned and simply force the next salvo of BS down your throat. The game is broken. Either you like that brokenness or it isn't for you. I can tolerate it to an extent, but I wish we'd stop pretending this is fixable
I disagree that there is no other feeling like it. Playing stun is a lot like playing Zoners in fighting games.
Your deck/character is specifically set up to decimate certain playstyles, and every time the opponent loses a neutral state/priority exchange, you laugh as you put another nail in their coffin.
Zoners also inspire similar feelings of anger from their opponents, who feel you should be playing more aggressively if youre playing a fighting game
@@Nomorehats Actually it would be more accurate if you said it was like you played Dan in street fighter but he had a 20% chance to become a Boss with super armor and un techable grabs at the start of every match.
Sure you COULD beat him but you're probably not going to
😂 😆 😂 😆
I’m sorry but if you don’t think beating a 1000$ deck with a 50$ is funny, you’re the problem.
"i spent thousand of dollars to make the most powerfull deck ever"
"eheheheh skele dino eheheheh"
Dont get me wrong its great. But its like saying you're can beat too tier characters in elite smash but youre just just cheesing with items rather than actually playing.
@@punchyboi6915 you do realize that the meta that you are talking about do the same thing right? the objective in yugioh is to not let the enemy play: a 1000$ meta deck combo for 15 minutes to stop the enemy from doing anything by negating and destroying every card, a 200$(?) stun deck stop the enemy from playing limiting the option he can make.
Both stop your enemy but one takes 15 minutes and the other use an handful of cards.
@Blarpozoom
The objective us not letting your opponent reduce your life points to zero. How do you stop this? By stopping your opponent get cards that can do that
The 1000$ decks you speak of do this by building up multiple interactions that limit your opponents actions. Specifically, combo decks are the ones that do this.
Stun turns of every interaction. Mainly targeting special summoning due to how important it is in current yugioh. Stun stops the aforementioned combo. But also control aggro and mid ranged decks alike due to how many decks rely on special summoning
While i won't deny it. Having a cheap deck that's effective is incredibly tempting. But it is also cheap
Going turn two against a combo deck. Especially things like yubel unchained. Snake eyes fire king and fiendsmith variants all seem impossible. Even more so with a starting hand. But you are able to play through them. Be it the luck of the draw or the skill of the player. Furthermore, it requires knowledge of those cards to understand how you use those decks and how to get to those combos. Give a newbie a yubel deck, and they'll have a much weaker end board than somebody who doesn't.
Stun has no skill. There is no way to play around. It either draw an out or lose. It's entirely luck. And yeah, your games are quicker, but again, it leads back to my first point. You playing Elite Smash, but you're cheesing your way through it. Not really.
If you wanna complain about the state of power creep in this game and how stupid something like phantom of yubel or the entire tenpai deck Is bullshit. I'm with you.
@@punchyboi6915 OK let me see if I can explain myself better, let's do an example:
I play snake/king and go first, you didn't draw even a hand trap, what will happens is that every card you will play will be stopped. In this case you can say that I am interacting with you but what would you think? I am stopping you from doing anything, how is that different from playing stun?
The stun player is playing cards and you are not, same would be against a meta deck, if I go second and didn't draw the out for both deck I am cooked, do you not see that?
And in regards to the objective of the game (I play mainly master duel so maybe my view is a little twisted) the amount of game were people set boards and the enemy surrender because they don't have an out is staggering, that is because they know that they cannot even play a card and it would be nagated/destroyed. So yeah, the objective in the end is bringing the opponent life to zero but the meta is doing so by not let the enemy play.
And yes, I despise all this one card combo that bring out your deck, it would be fine if the one card combo would not result in 6 negate but we are not there XD
Stun/lock down/stall strategies have always been topics of debate in game where they can exist.
And many time they are banned/addressed or not reasonable to play. For the fighting game example, there are ways to infinity stall where an opponent cant get you, but doing that at all is a DQ.
The issue with yugioh is unless both players are playing jank desks, play sealed ect. The whole game is "Draw the out, or pray your opponent messes up an interaction" which is why many players are stepping away from yugioh as a whole.
I think the reason why people hate stall is the "it to easy" mindset, yes you practically cant go second against a combo deck unless you drew godly, but people fell like the player earned that bord. They beat the habdtraps knew the line and didnt mess it up. Compared to normal Summon, moon mirror sheild set 3 pass. A win from that to most fells less deserved.
Call me crazy but what i think yugioh needs is a power reset (which i kmow will never happen) otherwise your going to just bounce for deck Konami want to be good with a splash of playable. And the powerscaling will have to keep growing.
Konami should just release a set called "Reawakened Dulist" and say that every card before then is illegal and effectively creat a new format
While still having the old format (of not more older formats)
Tld: Power keep makes match ups against stall or combo be the same but stall wins tend to fell unjustified
@frederickclarke6542 i went to rush duel links for this reason, the game has a lot more back and forth, and doesn't always feel 1 sided
I love stun! Turns are quick!
Going up against stun is frustrating. Getting Maxx C and combo on is also frustrating. Yugioh is frustrating.
Why are we even playing this game? Oh yeah because stunning your opponent and comboing off is fun.
This is just an argument of "if I'm not the one doing it, it's bad."
The issue with stun is the strategy is not strong enough nor is it consistent enough for people to prepare for it. There is no difference between a board of floodgates and an end board that has so many interrupts the opponent can't play through it. The issue is power creep made what's possible in 1 turn so excessive that legitimately setting up a combo locks the opponent out of the game exactly like a stun end board. This could be solved in a few ways. 1 could be the turn 1 player starts with less cards, maybe 3 or the turn 2 player needs more starting cards, possibly 8. Or the turn 2 player could have a mulligan for their hand.
Both stun and combo are the same at this point both want to stop you from playing the game
strongest floodgates? Number S0: Utopic Zexal has got to be high up. It literally just says "your opponent can't activate cards or effects"
How is player A not being able to out an ariseheart any different than player B not being able to out jowgen?
look im 51 and ive heard of these card games, i played a rpg calledart of conquest, not a card game but this interest me
Combos deck are stun decks with extra steps and less one card outs
The thing is, though, there are a lot of players who enjoy playing decks like stun or mill. It is a type of deck those players enjoy. My thought is, if you're super upset about stun, include cards that out the issue of stun. That's on you the opponent not the stun player.
Depends on the format if it's master duel than you have no choice because if you did most decks would consist of hand traps and back row hate as 90 percent of its list since each is useless against the other type of deck
@guardianape464 Stun was literally the most popular deck in master duel not too long ago. If that's not a good reason to have outs, then you're just stupid.
@guardianape464 I consider that part of the deck building process. You build based on what you want to accomplish and in a way that allows you to reach that goal. If you don't prepare for things that can cause you problems then that's on you, not the opponent.
Something like Fossil Dyna/Jowgen/Barrier Stun never seemed very good since even going first you probably need something to protect it from battle, probably something to protect it from an effect, and the body itself in your opening hand, and going second it’s notoriously terrible. It shuts itself off from so many good Extra Deck options too. What makes stun most frustrating to play against is when they do draw a combination of cards you can’t play against, but more often than not they either don’t or are going second and auto-losing. Runick Stun and Horus Stun are more insidious because they do use the Extra Deck first for things like Hugin into Fountain or Coach King Giantrainer, and then they use Stun cards, but they’re still relatively weak going second. I don’t see why cards like Runick Fountain, Giantrainer and Saryuja should be able to draw so many cards at once, especially given recurring monsters. But I digress. I see Stun as more of a real-world budget option since you don’t need to buy Extra Deck staples, in Master Duel where it’s UR crafting points I straight up wouldn’t recommend it and don’t think it’s good.
One good thing about Stun is that when you beat a full board meta deck, you’re like “I played well”, and move on
But beating Stun is a whole other experience
You can get the "I played well" feeling with anything going second tho
I dislike that Konami makes it easy for people to waste others' time by keeping stun cards legal that don't let them play.
I should be the one not letting people play by taking twelve minute turns in a 45 minute match.
If you have a problem with that come play magic arena standard where red aggro decks can kill you in literally 2 minutes and you won't have barely any counter play against them. :)
@@OlgaZuccati At least the bots are considerate enough to play fast.
If stun is bad for the game because it means "you don't want to play the game" then all the meta combofest and Build-a-board decks are bad for the game because they do the exact same thing stun does (especially when all the generic omnis get involved)
@@fenrisnox5766 Just play hand traps.
@@Godzillagamr999”just draw the out” is a horrible solution because unlike the anime, you can’t control which or how many of your hand traps or board breakers you draw no matter how well you deckbuild
@@augustgremaud2738 Which is the exact reason that Stun should be banned. Forcing players to play sub optimal cards that they only have a small chance to draw against a deck they see every once in awhile makes Stun feel cheap, unskilled, and RNG based on whether they open their floodgates or not.
Yugioh, by nature of being a card game will always be RNG based to some extent, but playing a deck with 12-15 hand traps is far more consistent and prepares you to play against far more decks than sticking Raigeki and dark hole into your deck will.
Woah thats crazy
If stun is not "good" then why would it need to be banned? Nyehehehe 🤪
(This is not a serious comment, I do also wish stun was not considered a necessity)
Is a group of people agreee to go into a ycs with the most disgusting stun strats and make top 8 i wouldnt even be mad, if it works it works.
I think Stun is fantastic for Yu-Gi-Oh, gives not only a way to get past most meta decks, but also allows you to have the most fun, and fun is needed in a TCG. Ik i get tired of getting stomped, and not able to get past overwhelming decks like Tear, Snake-Eyes, Runick, or even Centurian and Tenpai. You all know the feeling. I agree, certain cards can be impactful, and need to be hit, but not everything, everytime.
as a certified stun and stax dickrider shout out to the runick guy in the card art i really relate to him and shout out to my goat winter orb best artifact ever made :3
Eww 🤢
I can't believe now many people forget backrow removal exists
If there's side decking and back row hate in engine, then I can agree. But 90% of stun is cheesing a game or two because it's suboptimal to have backrow cards in the main deck
I know I'm very much in the minority but after playing stall/stun for years I learned that as much as I enjoyed it I loved playing against it so much more. It has most dangerous game vibes to me. There is enjoyment in breaking a puzzle/prison, winning after slowly bleeding them out on resources, or creating a shields down moment and then dealing the lethal blow. Win or lose I tended to enjoy it, especially when it went down to the wire.
I don't play yugioh, but it's kind of crazy hearing how Stevie talks about what stun does, because that's just....any blue deck in MTG. They'll counterspell your shit, but they have to do it at the correct time, otherwise they just run out and then you run over them in the next couple of turns.
In my Yugioh, the good monster floodgates aren't banned, the strong Spell/Trap removal on Spell/Trap cards like Feather Duster are unlimited, and the floodgates that stop Spell/Traps like Anti-Spell are banned.
I support Stun purely for the sick joy of my opponents $50+ dollar cards being stopped by my $1 card.
You’re still poor though and probably have never topped.
Melee implemented an Edge grab limit before you have to go back to the platform ground because it is so toxic and unfair. So even them had done things about it
8:53 best part is these cards have been around for years and some decades and now they are op.
Just play mst.
Tldr: there are fair combos, but not fair stun. If you ban the unfair combos, stun needs to go with them
What people fail to realize is that not all combos are created equal. A negate only shuts off 1 of 6 cards in the going 2nd player's hand, so unless the combo sets up 6 negates or more it's possible to power through it, even if you don't draw an out like droplet or dark ruler, and only gets easier to beat if you have those cards. Floodgates, on the other hand, single-handedly stop all of your opponents cards if you don't have the out. You can't beat anti spell on a pendulum deck by sequencing your plays a little better. And yes, there are going to be times where a turn 1 combo does prevent you from playing unless you draw the out, but I want those combo decks gone just as badly as I want stun gone. I'd also like to point out that people play more anti-combo tools than anti-stun cards, because there are significantly more of them. Duster and heavy storm are both limited in master duel, and heavy storm is banned everywhere else, but i can play 3 droplet, 3 dark ruler, 3 raigeki, 3 dark hole, etc.
I play combo but i love my stun brothas they are vital to the ygo ecosystem and some of the grindiest games i play are against runick stun sometimes it gets old opening no handtraps and just losing on the spot.
''it's clear you don't wanna play the game"" what game ? everygame is sneak-eye or yubel simulator
Dude really 😂 there's more than yubel or snake eyes 👀 you could be floodgated by drytron with vanity's ruler or light barrier statue
@@Justaplebxd1998 You can say that about every format. "Oh this is Snake-Eyes sim, Its Yubel Sim, Its Tearlament Sim, Its Labrynth Sim, Its Eldlich Sim, Its Drytron Sim, It's Tri-Brigade sim, It's Halqdon sim.
As long as any gamd exists, not just yugioh, there is going to be a strategy that is a cut above the rest and so it will be popular. There will come a time when Snake-Eyes and Yubel aren't meta anymore and you'll say "This game is just [Meta deck] Sim" cause everyone wants to play the good deck.
Lol so true 😂 I sometimes catch people off guard with my Lil treat deck 😂 I haven't seen to many people playing this deck lately I think I played one person out of like a hundred who were playing it
Banning stun is bad solely because that was basically the only way I could win in my masochist run
At the end of the day with stun you won't be able to win the ots or regional with stun, but you will make the experience miserable for the opponents that lose the dice roll at the first game.
Stun plays not to win, but to make the opponent lose
Yugioh is about causing pain to people.
Which is fine by me ;)
I don't like floodgates so much, but...
The creators of the game allows it because its legal. To reject others for relying in strategies you don't like to play against is to chicken up your ego.
Go and tell Stephen Curry to stop shooting three pointers because you prefer in-the-paint scoring despite three point shooting being a legal way to play the game at the NBA.
Play with people who aligns with your philosophy if your whining is inevitable. Apart from that, no reason to cry about it because Konami allows it.
But shooting 3 pointers doesn't slow down the pace of basketball. Stun would be the equivalent of stabbing a hole into the ball while the clock ticks down and not getting ejected or the ball being replaced, turning basketball back to the no dribble rules but worse because you're eventually passing around a deflated frisbee.
Unless Lebron has a strong patch and an air pump in his pockets to restore the ball in this scenario, every player on the court is not gonna be able to play basketball as it is advertised to viewers and players except Stabby Steve and maybe 1 of his teammates who practiced Basketfrisbee.
@@Mage_Nichlas_, again, you're talking about preferences, PERSONAL PREFERENCES.
Do I like to play against floodgates (especially those that denies special summons)? No, and possibly for the same reasons as you have.
But the game is what it is thanks to Konami. They have their reasons to keep them, and I believe is because floodgates simplifies the game for those who don't like a complex gameplay.
The NBA created the three point line to reward the long range shooting. With that, smaller players could have a major impact on the offense. Then, they created the three second violation to open the paint for the perimeter players, so they can drive to the basket easier.
The point of my analogy is that the owners of the game can do WHATEVER THEY WANT WITH THEIR GAME, fair or unfair, reasonable or not. It is up to the consumers, the players, to make a stand and put pressure over them in order to make them understand and change things, if possible.
I have full branded cards, I also have Raid Raptors, drytorn and snake eyes deck ready.
But I feel disgusted to myself to waste opponents time with 3 mins combo. I also feel irritated with waiting more than 30 seconds for 1 opponent turn when I know they still can use hand trap or any interuption later.
For the past 2 years. I play mainly stun for 1 single purpose ; to actually playa and not watch solitarie on trading card game.
I did play combo a lot on a event 30 seconds match not too long ago in master duel. I don't touch stun deck, because I get what I want ; less than 1 min per turn.
I play my stun deck again after the event over till now. I probably one of the player who introduced branded + placy (sanctifire summon placy for stun) and I'm proud of it.
Like I said again.
I don't play stun because I love seeing my opponent in mysery. In play it because i'm disgusted by the game timing.
If konami can make game less than 1 min per turn.
I won't even need to bother myself with stun deck.
Solitaire should never exist on a supposedly TRADING card game.
If you wanna teach somebody new to read their opponent and do the right thing at the right time then play a fighting game where you always have your meterless options, or you can take a fighting game philosophy and analyze a match between two players with that new player.
Setting up somebody new with a style that """teaches them to learn the game""" by watching their opponent instead of them learning about what they can enjoy about the game is the wrong way to do it. I think trying to throw someone in the deep end that is Modern Yugioh when they're trying to learn what a Normal Summon is is also just the wrong way to go, so throwing Little Timmy or John from Accounting a Stun Deck and telling them "Have fun." against any Tiered Deck from the last 10 years is a failure.
Stevie, your love for stun deck gonna make you work in a slaughterhouse
To get rid of stun they needa get rid of large combo decks that take forever to play and opt for more decks kinda like swordsoul where you can set up a little bit of interaction that can be meaningful in a short amount of time.
It's not good or bad or for the game. It's just another viable strategy that you must learn to play against. Those types of comments throwing hate at stun strategies are simply an accumulation of frustration (and a bit of skill issue), control over the opponent is one of the most iconic play styles, not only in TCGs.
In pokemon at least in 6v6 singles stall teams can go on for over 100+ turns. I think rules for time can be easily exploited in a ton of PvP games
The game where there are literally over 100 different decks and yet only 1-10 are played yet stun is the problem lol
YES IT IS. I WILL DIE ON THIS HILL@
Hope one day Konami limite every hand trap, board wipe and multiple deny card to 1, stop making 1-2 card combo, restrict more the arktypes, give people more routes and play ability, deck building so you might always need 2 arktypes combined to make a full deck, bisede having 10-15 card combo and 30+ staples to making you opponent life miserable. More comeback cards and less degenerate power creep stuff that cost 300-500 dollar's and need 3 copy itch...
yes it is. I WILL be playing protect the castle with jowgen and dyna, and you WILL like it. jokes aside, it's just a playstyle. it might be unfun to some, but it's fun for me :3 also, it's a card game. card games depend on matchups and a lot of random draws, be it engine or non-engine, and sometimes you just can't out a jowgen and lose lmao
Agreed, will you be migrating to Tenpai? Im confused on how it would be viable with the field spell maybe being limited to 1
They shouldn't be in a dominating position, but TCGs always need extremely simple decks in the meta
I too use card games as my sadistic outlet. Respect.
MEANWHILE PACHY WAS LIMITED... BUT ERADICATOR VIRUS IS AT 3 IN MASTER DUEL IN THE BANLIST.
...WHAT?
no decks play 3 eradicator, it is not a great card in master duel
I think stun is fine. The reasons why is that some days you just get one bad day. And i feel like i cant verbally express it so ill show it through my deck. If i cant have a good day no one can have a good day.
Stevie are you using the random thumbnails with a "yes" and a "no" in the thumbnail as the two possibilities
Only stun i enjoy is true draco with a little monarch engine but stuns main issue in MD is game stalling whereas combo decks are just you either stop them with handtraps/boardbreakers then surrender if not
I play Phantasm. The Deck thats basically the equivalent to mono blue magic. Stun all day.
Good players play stun becuase thats how we deal with the rude players who play meta but dont know how to play meta.
To me stun is kinda the mosquito of YuGiOh.
Encounters with it aren´t fun but it is just a part of the eco system. And if there is suddenly a lot more of it than usual, it will often hint at another underlying problem (usually a particularly deep dissatisfaction with the state of the meta).
I played the DC and got to level 16 after that it is straight up meta or stun and I prefer to play against the stun player. At least they don't take 5+ minutes to set-up a board.
Imo stun has a place but not as all incompasing as it is now.
i see melee, i like
Honestly if I'm able to stun you going 2nd in MD its deserved.
Stalling or prevent your opponent from play especially in competitive games is very common
In LoL you have top ranged players
In RTS like sc2 you have terrans that turtle for 40 minutes or protoss that cannon rush
Stun is not fun for a lot of people like many of those strategies aren't in any game but there is enough players that justify its existance stun players are not a minority and while it's east to shit on stun people forget the positives.
Stun is easy to play and in the current ygo format what could you even recommend to someone anything but stun
stun is cheap, most stun cards go for pocket change and in the format of bonefires, Little knights, 3x mulchummies and decklists that cost over 1000$ stun is very cheap and fairly viable (to me viable is something that can win with some consistency)
And those are also the reasons i think konami keeps printing new stun and floodgate cards without never fully dedicating to banning old ones.
Explain how to learn to play against stun in best of one how do i out rivalry and there can be only one without harpies i beat them sometimes but if you don't out you just have to surrender 😉 how could stun be fun for anyone
It's fun to watch people rage and call them plebs
The melee shoutout made me subscribe
Annoying thing is that you can't really play a control deck in yugioh unless you do some unfair floodgating
labrynth and voiceless scoff in good cards