Zoe Lee: The Most USELESS Character In Miraculous?⎮A Miraculous Ladybug Season 5 Discussion
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- Опубликовано: 28 сен 2024
- Zoe is such a wasted character in the Miraculous world.. Dunno what has been going on with her arc, but it certainly has been a disappointment. When she was introduced her dynamics with Marinette/Ladybug and Chloe were intriguing, and looked like they would have a lot of relevance going forward into season four and five. Guess not. We discuss more today. Enjoy.
![[Limbus Company - Teaser] Season5 - Oblivion](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/8anKuEeZLeI/mqdefault.jpg)
Zoe feels like she was introduced to have the good version of Chloe that Astruc hates for some reason. If he didn’t wan’t her as a good guy, don’t give her redeemable traits or give better reasons for her to relapse.
Agreed 100%. Zoe is an abomination (mi opinion of course) based on mixing Marinette's goody nature (plus craft skills and cheeks), Adrien's blond hair (and submissiveness) and Chloe's family. Painfully obvious she is there just to take the Bee miraculous from Chloe. But I have to admit, I would not have such a bad opinion of Zoe if the writers had not destroyed Chloe's character with so much absurdity! They are one of the many reasons my expectations for the show are (in average) zero! Anything can happen (and this is not a good thing)!😞
@@azanyo when I first saw her I knew what was gonna happen but they started with some interesting storylines of her breaking away from the bad side of her family & being like a real daughter to the mayor. Too bad they dropped her off almost immediately.
Honestly yeah cause if they want a character to be the stand in for "sometimes people don't change for the better" why not Lila she could be chole's replacement while chole gets redeemed but whatever
@@shadowmarauder6033 Hello. You make a good point, there was potential for story / char development. Yet it is my belief that Thomas & writers do not wish for any character to outshine the protagonist (Marinette / LB), therefore they will avoid working on any char unless strictly necessary for whatever conclusion they may have in mind. That was - my opinion - Chloe's downfall; she was getting too much attention in Season 2 (worse, she was becoming popular). 🤔
Yeah I wish that her redemption would come at the last minute instead of just the next season the reason I'm happy for natile's redemption is because I know she's just trying to save Emily and yeah even when Gabriel had another solution on saving his wife he still wants revenge on ladybug and cat noir and yeah donsen't deserve help from her and I'm happy for Sabrina because 1.thanks to her marionette is safe from Lila 2.I didn't hate her I just have nothing to do with her since she's a "friend" of chole and yeah now that she's betrayed chole and is joining marionette's side I say she deserves her miraculous back when they are retrieved and as for Felix well at first I thought he didn't deserve a redemption either when he was introduced he was like the male version of chole and yeah didn't want anything to do with him and yeah I don't even like his flamodoile I don't know how to pronounce or spell it so I am just going to call him dogman I don't like his dogman coustme but I do like his Argos coustme I would just like it better if he had his hair purple instead of blonde it would have looked better and yeah he tried to vanish ladybug and the alduts of Paris but it was nice of him to give marionette a dance thinking it's Adrian she's dancing with the wrong person but romantic and yeah he's doing everything to save kagmi and yeah she's able to have a boyfriend while Adrian is dating marionette and yeah I see that he's just trying to save Adrian from his father and is upset about no one coming to his father's funeral and yeah his clever plan saved ladybug and cat's friendship yeah there redemptions came as they have been bad for a long time chole has done anything to delvlop in season 1 and she just started to change in season 2? Yeah if only she has become nicer by the last minute I wouldn't have been afeded about her becoming a superhero
You’re right! She has no flaws, her backstory was pretty vague, and she LITERALLY came out of nowhere. They didn’t even bother to at least hint a little throughout S1-3 that Chloe had a Half-Sister. I’ll be honest. I really tried to like Zoe, tried to feel sorry for Zoe but in the end, I ended up hating her when I figured out she was created to be a person Chloe could never be and replace Queen Bee, nothing else. Now she’s just exists in the background………..
I wonder how Mr. Lee raised her and what was her life in America before moving into France. Also, does she have any friends in America and what school does she go to before going into Marinette's school. What is the real reason why she moved to France and was Mr. Lee been a better father than Mayor Burguoise.
@@michaelsarmiento3057 Or even where Mr. Lee is and what he’s doing now…
@@michaelsarmiento3057 Yeah… There is a VERY high possibility that we will never know who this man is…
And she's in love with Marinette lol.
luka come out of nowhere too and y'all are in love with him
It’s almost like her entire purpose is to be a perfect Chloe, and thus she doesn’t do anything outside of being her replacement in the hero group…
She is legitimately the most pointless character in this show and just never needed to exist.
Disagree
Fr
facts
I agree with the person who disagrees with you if you watch season 5 Zoe then you will see that she needed to exist
@@Bezaliel13 That's obviously what they're going for, but it's stupid they needed to create a 14 year old to fix her own family.
There's so many problems with her, i could make an essay:
-She exist literally just as Queen Bee replacement. Honestly, Alya should be the new bee, since in Style Queen, she was LB's first choice. And since her identity as Rena has been exposed, it makes sense if she change miraculous from times to times, especially since she knows who LB is
-There's no room at all for her to become a character. Her debut episode and her hero debut episode is literally side by side. The writers just couldn't give her space and time to be likeable by the fandom even if their life depends on it
-Assuming the card game info is canon, then they should've hinted her in NY special. Have Chloe mentioned her, have Jess mentioned her, make us curious about her. Just add ONE line that hint her. Dont make her something that came out from a last second decision
-She's in this limbo of important and not important character, and it'll depends on how plot convenient the episode gonna be for the writers. Heck, they literally waste Lila for the entirety of S4, despite supposedly being important
Yeah I think I liked it better when alya didn't know that marionette is ladybug she's become very annoying sense then she can't even keep her identity a secret as Rena furtive to Nino and I think the reason why ladybug choosed a stranger over one of her close friends is because queen banana was too powerful to use her head as she usually does and she had to the person right next to her so like yeah just because she was choosing love over her brain donsen't mean she's choosing nice over her brain
Ngl, I think they should’ve made Chloe like Zoe. And also, we can put a line in when Chloe is angry where Sabrina says, “Do you want me to call Zoe to calm you down?” or something. Zoe could’ve at least been a character that DIDNT come out of nowhere with literally one line foreshadowing her debut.
Do you know how could have actually worked?
1) Let Chloe keep her redemption arc, was perhaps the only time the show was consistent on something and then they throw it out of the window (cause the main writer is a creepy guy who was Mari to be this perfect main character or else...really...creepy) So yeah, this scenario happens without that terrible season finale that was like a middle finger for everyone who watched the show till that point.
2) Introduce her younger, like 3 or 4 years younger than the cast, a girl that even Chloe herself didn't know about, then she learns this girl is the reason why her mother abandoned her, why she refused to bond with her when returned to Paris, cause she has a new perfect family in the USA (she fell off in love with her father, didn't connect with his daughter, she was an accident, Chloe was the reason she had to marry a man she didn't love and she resented the girl even if it wasn't her fault, then had an affair, felt in love with this man and ran away to the USA with him when got a new job promotion, leaving her husband and daughter behind, got a divorce and started a new life, since she loved her new husband, she loved the daughter she claims she decided to truly had), this would create a huge conflict with Chloe, she at first doens't want to know anythign abotu Zoe, she is rude again, mean as was in seaon 1, as ignores Zoe and even keeps distance from her...
3) Zoe, is a child, so she is still very innocent, she doesn't fully get the messy family situation she is in, and since she had love, affection, and attention from day 1, she is very sweet, kind and all, but also kind of is used to get what she wants by her own effort or extra help and pushes and right now, what she wants is a relationship with her sister, Chloe, since she wants a big sister (maybe she was lonely or perhaps her friends in her old country had older siblings to look up to and now she is in a new country, she doesn't know what to do, is scary and wanst someone to feel familiar with...since her parents love her, but lately are working a lot), but Chloe keeps rejecting her, pushing her aside and being mean
4) This eventually hurt the little girl, who is new and scared in a new place, and her possible new sister, the one that could help her feel better, hates her...Chloe doesn't care about her feelings (or acts as if she doesn't care, she is hurt deep down as well and pushing her frustrations and anger towards this kid), while Zoe leaves crying, Chloe gets reprimanded, by no other but Adrain and even freaking Sabrina is like, "Hey, that... that was pretty mean, even for you...", the two confront Chloe, who finally opens ut and tells them how she really feels and they help her to realize she is basically acting like how her mother acts and treats her...
5) Zoe is depressed, and crying, she feels lonely, scared, and despair...she feels so little, insignificant...weak...and hates to feel that way, and due to her terrible broken feelings which she just wants to get rid of them, get rid of all these negative emotions...so she gets akumatized, in exchange of her help, the villain promises that she won't feel sad ever again and will even help her to gain the love of her sister, she accepts without second thought and boom!
6) Chloe sees this and feels guilty, is when Chat Noir appears and who convinces her to help after he goes to meet her to give her one chance to be a hero after she is like, "Its all my fault, no matter what, I will always be mean, I will always be a bad person!", that he knows she messed up, yet she needs to clean up her mistakes, Chloe finds Chat for once comforting like, "...why, why it feels I do know you? Like...for real..." Chat yet quickly makes her focus on the situation (so the idea of him being "familiar" doesn't sinks in), so Chloe helps them, Lady Bug is like, "I don't trust her..." yet ends up helping them, after all is over...Chloe apologizes to Zoe and promises she will try to be a better big sister...
7) Zoe and Chloe don't have a perfect relationship, after the incident, cause of their family situation...yeah, not the best...and there are still frictions here and there, but they also start to warm up to each other, Chloe with this even learns to be a little more responsible, while her sister evolves as a character...
6) As for Zoe, who knows? Maybe we eventually learn she is smart and perhaps is the one in the show that isn't an idiot and picks on how LB looks similar to Mari, yet everyone brushes her off cause "You are just a kid, what could you know!" making her be like, "...Stupid teens...-3-" and eventually, she also picks on how really messy her family situation is, how hard Chloe also had it and little by little, the two sister grow a strong bond...heck, maybe could be an episode moment, where Mari has to leave quickly, leaving Alya and Chloe alone and Chloe, turns to Alya and in a dismissive way as a tsundere type, asks how she gets along with her sisters (the younger ones), and makes silly questions of how to bond with kids, Alya is confused at first till she realizes how Chloe is actually asking for advice to get closer to Zoe, so Alya, even if she finds her silly, thinks is kind of cute and helps her, or at last, is hinted Alya gave Chloe tips on how to handle younger kids and Chloe in exchange looks more relieved, this would show how even little by little Chloe is becoming a better person...she is still Chloe, she can still be sassy at times, lose her temper here and there and can be spoiled at times, but clearly is becoming a better version of herself and wants to be a better person than her own mother...I don't know...at last Zoe would feel like her own character, not a replacement and we would have character development, even new connections slowly forming...(again, these could be background moments, nothign huge, just hints of how Zoe is a possitive influence in Chloe and how Zoe is slowly growing and getting closer to her sister, even if its not perfect)
Sorry for the long replay, maybe is just a silly idea? Too much for a kids' cartoon?
@@rachelmariecaberapacheco7942 This is brilliant.
@@rachelmariecaberapacheco7942Please re-write the entirety of miraculous. This is such an interesting concept and fleshes out both Zoe and Chloe's backstory
You know the problem about not only Zoe, but the other miss developed characters?
Its the fact that the series prioritized majority of the episodes on the Adrienette ship instead of certain characters, which wouldnt be a problem, if the ship actually got well developed throughout the show! Cus majority of those Adrienette episodes end up of having little to no progress at all and than now at season 5 they actually got a lot of progress and are finally dating! And I wonder, why so many episodes doing that if you decide to put the actual ship development at the end? We already know they are endgame, now just focus on the other characters! Like Zoe, Mark, Nathaniel, Millene, Kim, Evan, any other person!
Dont make 90% of your show focused on a thing that you only developed at the end! Thats just a miss opportunity.
But well, thats my take.
Yeah season 5 is giving well most of the things we've been waiting for 4 seasons ladybug and cat noir are finally getting along marionette now loves Adrian as true love Lila's finally getting exposed chole's getting the revenge she deserves ms bustia is coming around punishing chole marionette and adrian are finally dating
You’re correct. That is a huge problem with the show as well. It’s beyond frustrating for example the number of times they have literally wiped the characters memories just to remove the reveal. To stop the relationship from progressing at every opportunity.
They should have focused mainly on the plot but have the best romantic moments throughout. And never ever have a fake reveal.
Each and every romantic moment should have affected their behavior and relationship and been part of the plot.
But, since they wanted to keep that until the very end, they should have focused on other plot points instead and other characters throughout. Basically only have time for small romantic moments while they’re fighting the villains. And have other characters story arcs take precedence.
You know sense they were able to date without revealing their identities and their alter egos are getting along as simple friends I wonder how they will react to the real reveal and yes those moments were too beautiful to forget in obliveo while they didn't remember there superhero lives or lives as their normal selfs they were able to see each other detransform in front of each other interacte with each other as their civilian selfs and ladybug was able to tell Adrian that she donsen't want anything to happen to him and yes I love the ladynoir kiss in this episode but when ladybug uses her lucky charm to get their memories back she's back to being ladyjerk and yeah never take a ladynoir picture as long as ladybug isn't in love with cat noir in cat blanc when Adrian found out that marionette is ladybug he and her were going to start dating and yes it was so beautiful when cat sacrificed exposing himself to save marionette but because of the destruction it is making bunnix just came to stop the whole charade before anything happened ha screw you bunnix you could have just waited until cat did become akumized and then at least marionette would have known cat noir's identity she needs to know that cat noir and adrian are the same person more than Adrian needs to know that marionette and ladybug are the same person because yeah Adrian believes that they are the same person marionette donsen't compare Adrian anything to cat noir in ephramel this is the most pointless one ever I was so excited for this episode because of the "reveal" and yeah it's the 100th episode and as you can see what Adrian told ladybug of how awful it is hiding cat noir from her and is all like I'm so glad I don't have to do it anymore well you spoke to soon Adrian if you haven't called my lady you wouldn't have to forget who ladybug is and yeah I wish they got bunnix to save the day instead of vipreon then she would have just came to get Adrian to not call marionette my lady and yeah they still would have known their identities it's not fair that only the person who makes the do over can remember what happened then
The worst thing about her is that many of her traits were already displayed with other characters. Nice to everyone: Rose. Shy: Juleka, Marc. Anxious (in Sole Crusher, at least): Mylene, Marinette. Troubled home life: Adrien. There is nothing about her that makes her stand out.
(SPOILERS FOR ADORATION)
Even being LGBTQ+ isn't unique to her. Rose, Juleka, Nathaniel, and Marc, anyone? It feels like they just did it so that Astruc can accuse Zoė's haters of being homophobic.
@@notmyrealname453I feel like they just added that to make people like her more
Honestly, I hate Zoe. She feels like a fanfiction-Mary-Sue. She has no personality other then being nice. Everyone (except Chloe) loves her for NO reason. The evil Chloe hates poor, poor Zoe for no reason. Marinette trusts her with a miraculous after barley knowing her. She also gives her her phone-number on the day they met. Are you kidding me? I think she looks cool, both in her civilian-form and as Vesperia, but that's it. It is idiotic, that she has never been mentioned before and came out of nowhere. (But tbh that goes for a lot of characters like Felix or Marinette's grandparents and uncle.) And worst of all: She just exist because Thomas hates Chloe. She exist because of pettiness.
I think that Thomas did the right thing with Chloe, I also didn’t like her from the very beginning and didn’t like her.
Yeah I agree with you 100% I hated her since the first season and she just started to act nice by the second season and yeah I think season 2 is too early at least the other characters that got a redemption made their redemption at the right time if they did to chole I would have gotten over chole becoming a superhero and yeah didn't need Zoe to have the holder of the bee miraculous be a nice person
Lena Storm, I suggest you go to Callimara's Miraculous Rewrite. It is significantly better than the show's canon.
Nahhh don't do Felix like that XD bro's in the Pilot
I think you mean chloe. Not Zoe.
Yeah, Zoe is pointless story wise and it's sad. It's so sad. What would've redeemed this is like you said, having Chloe wanting to have it out with Zoe but no. She still has this unreal hatred for Marinette that was never fully explained and she's teaming up with Lila, presumably, to kill her. Cause trust me, Lila doesn't just want Marinette ruined, that psycho wants her dead...
Yeah Lila needs some sort of attachment therapy…
Considering that there was a short vid of Lila cutting the heads out of photos of Marinette I agree…that’s a psych0path move in the movies
@@jules6735 Absolutely! I saw that scene and thought "WTF?!"...
Yeah she you know that when Kagami became Oni-Chan she wanted her to off Ladybug
@@craigpeoples9883 Just like how she wanted Riposte Prime to off Marinette too in Protection so she could convince Gabriel to give her Adrien.
Zoe aka Vesperia is a real wasp. Wasps invade beehives, steal honey from bees, and kill bees. Zoe took Chloe's house, Chloe's family, Chloe's life. Chloe literally moved to another city and her father abandoned her and adopted Zoe, who now lives where Chloe lives. It's a unique use of related animals, as bees are usually depicted as the good ones and wasps as the bad ones. But bees are also productive, hard-working, and good for the environment, unlike Chloe who is far from it.
Not only that, Vespa means Wasp in italian. Vespa is the italian word for wasp.
@@michaelsarmiento3057And latin
I think it's crazy that even characters like Ivan or Kim feel more charasmatic than Zoe. When I think of Ivan, Kim, Max, Rose, etc. each one has their one personality and is cool, cute and annoying in different ways. But when I think of Zoe I just feel...nothing. Even though she's nice, there's nothing that makes her character remarkable in any way. The other characters might be stupid and a bit bland at times, but they're still charming while Zoe is clearly not
It's sad that she's a useless character. Because if given some better writing and personality. She could be great! She's like white bread. Without any layers. She isn't unique.And as someone who likes Zoe Lee. It's rather unfortunate. Not to mention her falling in love with Marinette feels incredibly forced. It's just like a girl x girl version of Adrienette. Which is also a forced ship!
100% agree that Zoe "liking" Marinette DEFINITELY felt VERY forced. There was nothing that was leading or hinting to her developing actual feelings
Am i first ? Lol
But on a serious note Zoe's existence is ridiculous utterly ridiculous
💯
True
They created Lila to replace Chloe as the villain when starting Chloe's redemption arc. Then Zoe to replace her when they decided to scrap it. Both characters only exist when the plot needs them to, which is worse with Lila since she's supposed to be in their class.
the only difference is that they did a good job with Lila, we hate her character, but she is defo interesting to watch. Zoe is just... existing in the same universe, jumping in sometimes when needed, otherwise she is forgettable.
Honesty I hated her from the start. Her only propose was to replace Chloe, they ruined a perfectly good character to bring her in, she has no flaws and got along with eeryone imidiatly, AND THEN BETRAYED CHLOE. SHE LITTERALY KNEW THAT THE BEE MIRACULUS BELONGED TO CHLOE AND SHE STILL HAD THE AUDASITY TO TAKE IT
It was for Chloe’s safety hawkmoth knew her identity this put Chloe in a lot of danger 🌚
She replaces the characters role not the character herself
I think that you're hitting the nail on the head when it comes to Zoes missed potential. She should've been one of the more prominent side characters, but she's barely anything more then a background character like Luka
Honestly, at this point, I wished Chloe took the Bee Miraculous from Ladybug during Miracle Queen and teamed up with Lila during season 4 or 5, instead of introducing Zoe. There are a lot more side/background characters that need some development (Ivan, Marc, Nathaniel and Sabrina come to mind because of Penalteam), so adding another underdevelopped character seems wasteful, looking back at what happened
Zoe just took Chloe's characters development and said "no fuck that" Queen Bee showed Chloe what it's like to be responsible for something big, be it good or bad. Usually Chloe pushes responsibility to everyone but herself. I always imagined, She could have stayed a bit posh and arrogant further into the series, but she would appreciate her life, her friends, her role as a protector of the city.
And her dynamic with Pollen is so cute. Pollen is essentially a bee, and bees want queens that tell them what to do, and Chloe is perfect for that, she fits the role of a queen bee well..
No your pretty much right she literally came for out of no where and everyone likes her chloe was a more interesting character and I feel like she also resonated with kids from broken homes or single parent households like me personally the only one who really raised her was her Butler her father didn't do anything and from her point of view her mother just abandon her then when she does come back the worst parent who can't even remember her own daughter's name and when she actually found a way to make her acceptable to her mother she took it her own mother chose Marinette over her take to New York the more I think about it the more is just heartbreaking to hear
I would've loved seeing what was used for Zoe as Chloe's redemption arc. Not for others but for herself.
I can picture her seeing people not being able to accept her efforts to change so she has to go deeper, harder, undercover to make up for what she's done, or at least try and help ladybug without the bee miraculous.
Say she even witnessed Ladybugs failure to protect all the miraculous and somehow gets a hold of the bee comb again. And like Adrian's personality change to alter his costume, she does the same and helps more covertly. (I.E wears a beanie to hide the comb, and changed her style altogether because a beanie with her current outfit is an obvious travesty.)
And with such a change, it's almost as if everyone doesn't recognize her. Even Sabrina is confused, tries to figure out her "friend's" change and Chloe withdraws. Not because she hates her but because she wants to keep her safe/grow some more to be a friend Sabrina deserves, whatever reason she gives.
What does she get from this? She learns even superheroes are flawed and if ladybug was still someone she cared about she starts trying to stand up for her, being a Tuxedo Mask Rose in those times that Ladybug and Cat Noir just couldn't cut it.
And if there came a time she slips up and Ladybug discovered it was all Chloe, she lets her protect the miraculous because she became the Queen Bee who earned her crown, thus giving way to the idea that maybe trusting others to guard a single miraculous and lighten the burden might not be so bad an idea.
But "Once a villain, always a villain." Eh, Astruc?
I mean, I guess this was Thomas's attempt at self therapy/revenge so I can see why he doubled down on Chloe if it was a projected personal issue.
Even sadder though when a majority of the potential of a story is thrown away over this but his story, his choice.
dude i just hate how dirty they did chloe... she was growing so much at season 2 and could really be so much interesting and cool if better handled at s3... now (s4 and s5) she's just back to her horrible s1 self again
literally the only reasons I feel she was made was either as an insert or just because the creator hates Chloe
The difference between Chloe and Zoe is that Zoe is basic and just appeared out of no where and suddenly replaced Chloe's title as Queen Bee, her costume looks like a Wasp and wasps literally kills bees to steal their Honey, meanwhile Chloe's hairstyle as Queenbee literally looks like a Beehive and her entire outfit also reminds me of the Miraculous she holds which is the Bee
Chloe was having the character development that could've made the entire show better but they just ruined that by adding the Zoe-Flop into the show and expects us to act as if she is good enough to replace the original queenbee
Zoe feels like a character made from spite. Fans rightfully and loudly crucified the writers for undoing the one satisfying long-term character arc the show has had. They didn't want to concede they made a bad call so they instead created this character to justify their decision at the backend like a "See? Look how much worthy this *nice* character is of being the Bee wielder. Now don't you feel bad for rooting for that mean bully?". But because this character solely exists to cover up a bad writing decision, they didn't have any fundamental ideas for what to do with Zoe and have already lost total interest in her. This useless character has only further proved the critics of Chloe's failed growth arc right because the show has not at all benefited from that decision. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against failed growth arcs. Chloe's could've been a fantastic villain story with Zoe acting as her foil but these writers weren't really thinking past "reset to zero so we don't have to create a new antagonist for Marinette". It is just bizarre why they felt they needed her back in that role instead of her much more engaging anti-hero one when Lila is RIGHT THERE as a far more clever and malicious nemesis. Zoe serves absolutely no narrative purpose than to be the "preferable" Bee wielder, it's like this show really is being written by adolescents who don't understand that being "good" doesn't automatically make your character good or interesting.
It seems to me that Zoe is not a full-fledged positive character. many do not notice its dark negative essence.
@@MindfulMadamaNegative Essence, what is that?
Zoe was made specifically to ridicule Chloe and make her development pointless. Adding this extra layer to the whole bea miraculous was unnecessary, just not being the holder alone, feeling useless, and knowing she'd messed up her chance to actually be deemed worthy by her idol would have been enough. This whole extra sister thing to add "tension" or make it seem all crazy is weird, is what's her face would have never happened Chloe's conflict with the new bee miraculous holder would have been the same even if it weren't Zoe. She serves no purpose even as a Chloe evil villain plot device!
I never saw Zoe as anything other than Chloe's replacement as Queen Bee.
If you were aware of Astruck's mindset around the time she was introduced in the show, you could easily see the true intentions behind her introduction from a mile away.
Suddenly Chloe has this half sister nobody ever mentioned before, but the story isn't about Chloe's mother hiding a kid from her family, everybody is already in the known and accepted that she will be living with them. Only the audience needs to be introduced.
Think you're gonna have a mini arc where Chloe learns about her mother having a child outside of her marriage and Chloe's father mindset when confronted with his wife's infidelity? Nope, Chloe is already planning on making Zoe into a copy of herself and the mayor is a better dad to Zoe than he's ever been to Chloe! The mother facing consequences for anything? That idea is ridiculous, utterly ridiculous!
Aside from that, all we see in the episodes where Zoe is the focus is how bad of a person Chloe is and how much of a poor victim Zoe wants to be perceived as.
It's never been about introducing a character, it's always been about making sure Chloe would never be seen as a hero in the eyes of the audience ever again.
Simply because Astruc based Chloe in a girl he hated and he is using a cartoon as his therapy session.
Zoe is the last character introduced in the entire show with everyone else having three seasons over her of course she’s going to be much less developed
Still she could have had more episodes devoted to her in Season 4
Doesn't help that much though
She's a big reason why I won't watch the season. She just replaces Chloe as the bee miraculous holder and has no character flaws. She's just nice. That's it. It's too boring, and I don't care for her.
Zoe is someone whose character is pretty mishandled. If the story was reworked, she could have been at least decent but honestly the entire miraculous storyline is so patchworked that characters like her suffer.
There are people who trash talk this series especially marinette but when derision comes out, people are all like “omg poor marinette. Chloe is a monster. This explains so much”, NO IT DOESN’T!!!! It doesn’t justify her actions, hell, it doesn’t even explain her actions. Ptsd doesn’t turn people psycho. That’s an insult to people who truly struggle from PTSD. Even if Mari-Sue does have “trauma”, that’s still not her main motivation. Her main motivation is obsession and possession. If it is ptsd, avoidance and trust issues would be the explanation. I’m not a writer, but if you see movies where anxiety and ptsd is done well, you kind of get it. And you don’t ever use ptsd and anxiety as an explanation for psychotic behavior. Psychotic people, bad people, can just so happen to have ptsd. Even if people sympathize with her character, it is still irresponsible of them to cut her some slack. A criminal is a criminal. They should still slap on the handcuffs and take her straight to juvy. She needs to suffer the consequences of her crimes teenager or not. She is old enough to understand what she’s doing.
They reverted Chloe's redemtion arc just so Marinnette wasn't the worst character and then deleted Chloe because they made her a second Liela, replacing her with a lesbian half sister just so someone takes the bee miraculous place. Then proceeded to make a silly PTSD flashback to excuse the creator's creepy obsessive idea of love, but it didn't help to cover up the fact Marinnette is a yandere mary sue. Trauma might explain behavior but not excuse it.
A bit of a stupid side effect of dumping Cloe back to be a pure villain to be replaced by Zoe is that she becomes less interesting through it. Like the more complex Cloe is the more complex Zoe can be. Zoe is just so fundamentally tied to Cloes character, that their dynamic is pretty much what defines her as a character.
There is so many interesting things you could have done with a slightly better Cloe that is suddenly upstaged by her sister. Like I can't understate how much both characters could have profited from this. I mean sure the show could have made due without Zoe, but I think there would have actually been some potential here if not (and I know this might be unfair, but it sure feels like it) for Thomas despising Cloe as a character.
Zoé could have been a good character as Chloe's sister if the writers actually put some effort in. Lets say, what if Zoé doesn't actually want to be an actress, but she convinces herself that she does as a defense mechanism to explain to herself why she has to maintain a certain persona all the time? And Chloe doesn't really want to be a designer, she just wants to get her mother's attention in any way possible. But we do see on multiple occasions that Chloe enjoys acting, and we see that Zoé likes designs/styling a lot(she even designed her kicks herself). Then maybe have Chloe be praised for a design and have Zoé get a role over Chloe. Then they will start realising that what they thought they wanted didn't make them happy, and they're actually bitter about losing to each other. This would be a reason for them to first be cold to each other but then to slowly start bonding over their struggles to know what they want. And it won't hurt to have Zoé get bored of her unrealistically nice persona, because she realises she was just playing another role to fit in, and maybe she'd even defend Chloe to the group sometimes, telling them that they're no saints either and also did their fair share of stupid stuff(especially Marinette).
She's boring and a bland character in my opinion it feels like she was thrown into the storyline just to take Chloes place and have the bee miraculous and never had character development besides standing up to Chloe and Kitty noir but she needs WAY more character development than that and more screen time and not to mention the very poor writing with her and Marinettes relationship tbh and she needs more of a backstory and personality and WAY more flaws not to mention how they just throw a lot of other characters is traits in her character which was REALLY noticeable and annoying
God, I hate Zoe so much. My friend keeps telling me that she loves her, but when I ask her for a reason, she can't explain. And initially she realized it's because she is "pretty"
May I question how are Zoe and Chloe the same age but somehow step-sisters? Am I the only one who gets the feeling they're actually twins but since Audrey didn't know who the father is she pawned one off on mayor spineless and another on Mr. Unknown and Irrelevant? Or am I just putting more thought into this that the show did?
Zoe's meant to be a year younger than Chloe and the rest of the main cast
i don't hate zoe but i don't like her
Zoe is literally just
“Oh no now that Chloe is now a bad guy. Who is gonna be the queen bee now. Oh I know let’s find a heroic stereotypical American to come replace our very story filled character and have them just be good with no writing at all. They are just good chloe so everybody MUSTve liked her”
Like honestly man even the design for her queen bee looks worse then Chloe’s queen bee. Sorry but chloe being queen bee is my queen bee. There is just nothing for Zoe at all. Literally just a step in for chloe (as of now) before I dunno will chloe return to being good in future seasons. Specially when she is American which ticks me off even more being the whole stereotypical good guy from the US. And I don’t hate Americans I just hate the ones that are done stereotypically.
Gotta say I'm also disappointed. I got excited when she was introduced at all the potential of a new face observing what everyone just acknowledges as the usual. But she didn't even really do that. And despite me liking her (mostly because her designs are neat) I also forget that she exists when she isn't around. It's a shame but honestly not surprising.
Zoe is Chloe's half sister . . . who's the same age???? It makes NO sense! What a Mary Sue!
I wish they introduced her in s2 when Audrey came in style queen
FR cause it feels like she came out of nowhere
Zoe is the type of character I don't even hate. I don't like her either. I just don't care about her at all.
I adored this show before they decided to give up on Chloe. Now I don't watch it and I'm pretty sure a lot of people too.
Tbh, I used to love Miraculous until season 3. After season 3 was completed and season 4 came out, I started to hate everything about Miraculous. Mostly Marinette and Chloe. Shes worse than she was in season 1. Adrian and Chloe's friendship got ruined and that's the worse part
Zoe Lee is there because Thomas Astruc needed a bee miraculous holder and hates Chloe, and they didn't bother to find a reason for her to exist in universe. Lazy.
Another pet piv i have with Zoe, in addition to all the things mentioned above, is how she falls into the "tortured one-sided gay lover" trope so many gay characters falls into because if all the charcaters that the gay charcater crushes on are straight, writers dont actually need to potray same sex-relationship on-screen. Gay characters just arent allowed to be happy in popluar fiction.
Fine, give another love instreas to Merrinate, but if you arent gonna potry Marrinete as bi and at least give Zoe hope, cant you at least let her drope her hopeless crush and have a little saffic romance with one of the other background charcaters?
See, this whole thing really just makes my blood boil, because it’s so obvious that this was a last minute decision because Austruc just hates Chloe I guess. When asked about the change online, he said, “Only good people deserve miraculous,” or something along those lines. Like, what a jerk! To think that a person like Chloe is just a horrible irredeemable person and doesn’t possess the capability to grow!? I loved how her character was changing for the better! Like, yeah, we all hated Chloe at first, but then Lila came along, and we all hated her WAY more. That was the perfect time to have Chloe start shifting to hero. She’s rough around the edges, she still has to learn to play nice with others, it was a fun group dynamic. Here was a hero with flaws, who didn’t just do exactly as she was told by Ladybug all the time and thus actually had a shred of character during fight scenes. And more than that, I wanted to see her become a better person! I wanted to see her and Sabrina be actual friends! I wanted to see things start to go better because of Ladybug’s influence on her life! But no, Marinette has to be a stuck up jerk and doesn’t do what she’s supposed to do in telling Chloe that she can’t be a hero, instead just ignores her because she hates Chloe, and then Chloe, having put her faith in a person she thinks is a good person and a good friend, gets betrayed and manipulated and goes evil again, AFTER-I should mention-BEING THE FIRST PERSON IN THE SHOW TO ACTUALLY WARD OFF AN AKUMA ATTACK!!! BECAUSE SHE TRUSTED LADYBUG MORE THAN SHE WAS TEMPTED BY HAWKMOTH!!! AND HOW DOES LADYBUG REPAY HER!??? UGH!!! Anyway, Austruc clearly just didn’t like Chloe from the start, wanted to snub her hard and fast, even if it meant that there would be a gaping hole in the story. So, they took the easy way out and quickly wrote up a new character to basically fill in for all the times when Chloe was supposed to be acting good/as Queen Bee, and then left her to rot in the Bully Corner for all eternity, meanwhile Lila hardly gets the amount of screen time she really should have. It’s just a mess all the way around. Truly.
When they first introduced Chloe I thought I missed something and there was a fan contest where you can win and be inserted into Miraculous 😂 Her character just seemed so out of the blue
I feel nothing for Zoe. I feel indifferent. The fact that they completely erased what could have been such a great redemption arc and an addition if an "anti-hero" to the miraculous team was just a stupid and underhanded move for the creator. And the fact that only CHLOE got her miraculous revoked after she got her identity revealed when all the others' identities were also revealed is kind of unfair. Why only Chloe? That's cause of some personal hate the creator has for his own character. Chloe was such an amazing character with infinite possibilities, so many things could've been experimented with her alone and yet they chose to just make her into this completely braindead, one-dimensional villain who has a nonsensical hate towards the main character. It was never really explicitly explained as to why she hated Marinette in the first place. I have so many issues with this show starting from the writing to the nonexistent character development. After watching season 5, I realized that it'll all go downhill from here. Nothing's set in stone, the characters are stupid and one-dimensional, the main character doesn't get any retribution for her mistakes, amazing side characters are pushed away and their potentials aren't even being used properly like Lila and Chloe. What's the point? And the appearance of Zoe was just a move to spite Chloe. She didn't have to exist. She absolutely adds nothing to the story as of now. But what can we do when not even the creator listens to criticism from his viewers? This show is a dumpster fire and it always will be.
I think Zoe wouldve made better sense to be Chloe's cousin instead of her half sister
Kinda wish when she got the cat miraculous, they flushed out her character more
In a lot of ways I don’t see why the bee miraculous HAD to have a miraculous holder.
And actually I think it would have been more interesting if somehow Chloe had the bee miraculous permanently as a villain. One way that could have been achieved is if she entrusted Hawkmoth with the bee miraculous. And then he gives her the miraculous occasionally to do secret villain missions.
I mean obviously not every miraculous has a hero character attached.
I think it would have been much more interesting if another miraculous had a villain owner.
It’d add a lot more tension to the show. You could even add more sympathy to the plight of the magical animal characters too. And the villains finally would have really made some ground and become more formidable.
The heroes in Miraculous Ladybug from the beginning actually are too strong.
I know they make Hawkmoth invincible in the show, but honestly it’s not believable. Hawkmoth doesn’t really seem to be smart nor invincible.
The show would be better if the villain side was strengthened over time.
That could only help the show, especially since the heroes strengthened over time in the show with more and more new miraculous holders who are trustworthy heroes joined the fight.
This honestly could have become like a Marvel or DC comic with tons of villains and heroes. It could have been epic. Instead of the same thing over and over like a Scooby Doo episode.
I think the villains in this show are mostly forgotten too.
And villains actually can be some of the most interesting parts of a show.
I dislike how the show handles just about everything. They don’t like their own characters. That’s not a good author. That’s not a good writer.
You should enjoy writing all your characters. You should have fun writing your villains and your heroes.
But that’s my opinion.
I don't think Zoe is that bad. Maybe you could make a video where you rewrite her character and make it better though.
Honestly? I feel like Chloe's hate of her sister, while misguided, is somewhat justified. Her mother cheated on her father and had another man's child. that sort of thing traumatizes children. Chloe's father literally has no responsibility for Zoe and treats her better than her own blood even though she is proof of his wife's infidelity. Why isn't she living with her own father? frankly both Chloe and Zoe need to be in therapy.
I mean to be fair with her father, who wouldn't treat Zoe better than Chloe? (Not counting evil characters or Sabrinas)
IMAGINE BEING BETTER FATHER TO A KID WHO YOU'VE NEVER MET
I would agree but the fact that she's lesb makes her my favourite by default (because I'm bi, my sister is lesb, and her girlfriend brother is ace)
Zoe honestly could've been great with the whole acting background she had and not feeling like she could be herself, she could've had an interesting character arc with that but instead they just settled for doing nothing and just handing her the bee miraculous cuz they needed a replacement, thats lazy writing. I found Zoe interesting when she was first introduced, her complicated background opened the door for alot of interesting conflicts but instead they did nothing with it and just made her a flat character. Its honestly disheartening because Zoe had potential, but the creators didnt really care to do anything with her other than just be Chloes replacement which is so stupid.
They should have made Zoe a lovable alpha bitch, if they weren't going to make Chloe that.
I just feel bad for cloie they just screwed her up
Another zoe roast 😭
My fan made twins Jackal and Stella LeBlanc, are here for satirical comedy but there is more to them that meets the eye. Stella LeBlanc become a vital character when she use’s her fan made Miraculous, the Phoenix Miraculous, Kwami, Flaiir. To turn into her super heroine, Daybreaker who can enhance the the ability’s of her fellow heroes and her main powers are Telekinesis and Fire Rage (The more angry she is, the more raw fire power) 😅
This may be an unpopular opinion here, but I like Zoe. She's a bit shy, usually tries to conform with people around her, which initially means Chloe and Audrey, but ultimately chooses to be good. Yeah, she isn't the best developed character and has more potential than has been used in the show, but the show ain't over yet!
I don't see why you can't like her, It's okay to like any character however, Her role in the story is a bit yeah...
@@lolsendhelppls1896 I don't mind her role in the story either. She's actually had more action than, say, Rose or Juleka. She lacks depth as of now, but I'm hoping for more development for her in the future
@@katiat7278 I see.. I still don't see how , but I respect your love for her haha :D
@@lolsendhelppls1896 hehe thanks! My love may still go to waste if the writers decide to scrap her (which I wouldn't put past them)
The worst part is Chloe as Queen Bee is FUN. Having a hero who does good for selfish reasons is interesting. It's why I liked Trish Walker in Jessica Jones season 3. Now every hero is just.. a hero.
I honestly keep forgetting that she's a character in the show.
I never liked her which is Zoe because the fact that Ladybug literally just gave Zoe the Bee miraculous that fast unlike Chloe and the others who were going through something or doing smth good by each episodes to get a miraculous...now Ladybug/Marinette got her karma from Felix :]
Never a fan of Cholé. She never should have found the Bee/Pollen. Anyway, Zoé (as much of the series) is horrible writing and badly exposed as a character. Yet I'm in a minority as being the Captain Adrigami, I do love Zoé despite her lack similarly to Mireille. (The blunette weather girl)
March 22, 2023 at Wednesday 9:13AM. Blessed days everyone. 🌸🔥🌸🔥
tbh i would have preferred a chloe character development then zoe popping up...zoe great but she's kind of just there- she has to be here for a reason i just cant think of one 😃.
As Adrien said "Nobody is useless" the writers are building her character up slowly around characters in the story line they want to deal with we'll probably see more of her in season 6, they said characters that have been in the background will be seen more with story lines
since Chloe is my favorite character people had always been thinking that I probably hate Zoe just because she replaced Chloe's entire title as the Bee Miraculous Holder and stole Chloe's spotlight in the show but that is not just the only reason why I hated her, Zoe's entire story is so boring, she just appeared out of no where and the creators expect us to like her, Zoe's costume literally looks like a Wasp and Wasps kills and steals honey from the Bees, meanwhile when Chloe was about to have a good character development they started to ruin it just by adding this basic character who have no other purpose in the show but to replace an icon.
I really want Zoe to be good. If it were up to me her becoming Vesperia would jump start Chloe’s second character arc. Chloe’s a bad person so I get it she relapsed and she’s a shithead again. Make Vesperia her wake up call. That’s what makes her change fully. After than give Zoe the goat or the rooster because let’s be honest Marc and nathanial don’t deserve them and Marc barely exists. Just replace Marc with her
Lila: the scarier more competent chloe
Zoe: what queen bee should be
These two were just made to replace chole or reduce her plot relevance. They probably just wanted to kill her off but that is impossible cuz it's a "kid's show"
Hey man, Gloob is releasing episode 17 on tuesday, and it seems to be Zoe focused. We'll see if it gives her development
tbh, Zoe wouldn't really be that bad if she was hinted when Audrey was introduced or even in the nyc special. you know, give her a storyline??
Zoe is pointless in the story. She honestly wasted time that could have been used for the million other characters on the show.
I don’t mind Zoe being here but she is a character that really did not need to exist and there was no hint of her if Astruc wasn’t so hell bent in making Chloe a one note villain and having a once a villain always a villain mindset in regards to her he already has Lila for that but then again his sense of story structure and overall writing is garbage and if it wasn’t for the toy sales and above mediocre appeal of the show it probably wouldn’t have gotten this far in the first place
Oh, that's girl that simps over Marinette, right?
Honestly, I liked Chole, not siding with Lila. Everyone follows her other than Mari and Adrian
Yea she’s pointless but I still like Zoe. I think she has a cute design and she has a lot of potential.
Yeah, I like Zoe but it's really stupid of the writers to just put a new character out of nowhere instead of making their backstory about them.
Mean girls reference?
So many characters have dyed hair so that doesn't make Zoe stick out. Juleka and Mari have obviously dyed hair plus Socqueline, Alex and Alya and Sabrina.
a sort of side-plot where chloe continued to work with hawkmoth and became super-rivals with her sister could've been really interesting. if they want to lean into "chloe is a bad person and will not be redeemed," DO something with that! i understand and honestly feel the disdain for scrapping what seemed to be a set-up chloe redemption arc, but god, if they'd at least replaced it with something cool, i'd gladly take that, yknow?
Zoey was a proof of aundrey cheating
"Zoe Lee isn't even a bee. She is a wasps. Wasps are the enemy of the bee. Wasps stole their honey, their home, and their food. Just like Zoe did to Chloe."
- Callimara.
I’ve had this head cannon that clashes with the show about Zoe and Chloe. Basically Audrey hated how happy Gabe and Emilie that she moved to America. She got married to some actor she had worked with and they had a daughter. Zoe. When Zoe was about 5 Audrey and her dad got a divorce and Audrey won most of the custody. She moved back to Paris with Zoe (mostly to try and win Gabe) and ended up married to André. Zoe was about 7 and a half when they had Chloe. Everyone liked the name because they rhymed. Zoe was kind, sweet, and basically raised Chloe till Chloe was 5. Audrey at that point couldn’t handle the Agreste situation, moved back to America leaving Chloe and taking Zoe with her. Audrey gave full custody to her ex-husband and never looked back. I felt like this could have been a major impact on Chloe’s life. Maybe she hates everything that reminds her of her sister, or maybe she’s lashing out for attention I don’t know. It just gave Zoe a reason to exist if she ever showed back up to see her sister.
She makes me feel so indifferent to her character to the point if she disappeared forever I wouldn't have notice and that personal sucks.
It would have made more sense writing wise to just utilize Chloe’s character to tell a more interesting story honestly. So she fell as a hero right I’d rather they never use the bee miraculous again until they get it back after this season and had Chloe redeem herself this season to get it back! Chloe could have been a character that showed kids that people can be forgiven…..
Ikr I mean she's Dutch a bad character shes the worst and she tried to take Marinette.I know she's a fake;( I hope they fix her😔thx for your help !
Zoe actually had great potential and she actually does have a character, but her character is not utilised beyond her two introduction episodes.
We know she was living in a boarding school in the US and that she was bullied and couldn't be her true self. We could've explored this edge. We also know she only had one friend so we could've devoted some time to make her bond in a unique way with some other castmates Like Alya, Kagami, Adrien, Luka, and Marinette. We also could've explored her interest in acting (which maybe could've given us some parallel of her to Emily who was also an actress). However, the show didn't devote the time to her, which to me is kind of sad since I really wanted to actually see more of her. I do like Zoe, maybe not when the first time I heard about her, but I did like her and her concept ever since Miracle Queen, but ultimately, she didn't live up to the hype.
Honestly, we could either replace her with maybe a sentimonster storyline where she's a spy (I believe some fan artist made a cuckoo bee comic of this idea which was pretty great, though it had some flaws mostly in other characters and how they were portrayed at times, but overall the story worked pretty well). Or you could make her instead Adrienette future love child for some kind of sequel series like Boruto which can explore adult heroes and even new generation of heroes as well.
Ok, what's your opinion on Luka then?
Bianca Belair would be proud of that caption😂😂😂😂
When I first saw Zoe, I liked her at first. By that, I mean the first episode. She was an art student with custom shoes, so I was bound to. BUT I wasn't paying much attention during that episode, and I do remember thinking, I don't like how they're trying to make me sad, and not in a good way. I also remember thinking, "lol she looks like Chloe," Needless to say, I freaked out when I found out I was right. I figured I would like her more when she became relevant to the plot, but she didn't. When she was, she was ruined for me when she replaced Chloe. I fricking hated that.
Replacing a person's role and a person is not the same thing
@@Owell_Owl When you remember WHY she’s here and how much Astruc hates Chloe, yeah, she replaced Chloe.
Imagine Zoe being the opposite of Chloe where she's friends with Marinette but dislikes Ladybug. She could have been such a realistic character who points out how BS it is Ladybug gets away with certain things. Not that Zoe doesn't want LB to win but there's just repercussions LB seems to get away with. Over time, she could have learned to like LB as well and maybe that's why she gets the Bee.
But ALSO imagine Zoe being of importance where maybe she's one of the only people who's onto how sus Lila is. Besides Mari and Adrien she could have been someone who kept a good eye on Lila and found out a lot of what she's doing, kept it to herself until the right moment since "Lila is so good at lying" as every idiot in this show keeps saying.
I'd love that omg
You should've been the writer of this show tbh
That is a cool idea. I mean she is an actress so it'd be easy to figure it out fir her
Or it could be Zoe is sentimonster gifted from Gabe that neither parent knew what to do with after having one of their own for real.
Yes! That would’ve been so much better!
Unfortunately the show has too many characters, the episodes that Zoe featured could have been given to other old and beloved characters in need of development.
RIght? Just off the top of my head, Sabrina getting the Bee Miraculous would have way more oomf to it. She could be the worker bee to Chloe's Queen Bee, and there could be a lot more depth that could be found in Sabrina finding worth in herself, refusing to put up with Chloe anymore and acting like her mindless drone.
Hell, Zoe, as much as I don't like her, just needed to be expanded on. She hates having to play into being a mean girl's yes-man, yet she falls into the role seamlessly whenever she so much as feels like she has to play that part, thanks to YEARS of implied bullying. She and Chloe could bond over them both vying for their mom's love and attention, only for the both of them to come up short unless they act like mini versions of Audrey. And, despite all this, Zoe still has a love for acting. Like??? C'mon!!!
@@tama3162 OMG Sabrina getting the Bee Miraculous would have been such an amazing idea!!
Imagine Marinette recruiting one of her parents or teachers for a mission
Yeppp WE NEEDED LUKA NOIR
@@TheFelineBunny YESSS
Adrien is already a GREAT foil for Chloe, they both grew up with wealth and one absent parent but they are completely different. IMO zoe didn’t need to be added if they redeemed Chloe. Also zoe literally looks like Gwen Stacy/ spider woman with that pink streak
But it's not Zoe where trying to get Adrian in a relationship with over chole it's marionette
I guess Spiderman fans saw her like this in the comics many years ago for being "too perfect and just for decoration."
@@virnalassiter382 take off your shipping goggles and read the text before you get defensive. being someone's foil isnt inherently romantic.
Zoe won the battle, but Chloe won the war.
What war
She’s weak! WEAK!!
Is that a mean girls musical reference?!
@@phantom115cw the war of being plot relevant
For Chloé and Lila, @@FeligamiAdrizoeSworaDennisTRF , yes
I honestly think that making Chloe’s half-sister the bee miraculous holder is so cruel. Chloe worked hard to earn it and then Zoe pops up out of nowhere and in the second episode, she gets a miraculous. Other people waited episodes or even seasons to get one. I honestly feel like there trying too hard to make us like her. I also feel like they rushed her backstory. She mentioned in her first episode that she was mistreated by her parents and stuff. Chloe’s backstory was done well. You know the saying “show don’t tell”? They did that with Chloe in I think the episode Despair Bear. And she achieved her goals in her SECOND episode. She said she wanted to be an actor, then in Queen Banana she was the star in a film. I like Zoe but it’s very obvious she’s a replacement for Chloe.
Zoe should have gotten the wasp miraculous because Vesperia is a wasp. Zoe Lee's costume resemble a wasp, not a bee.
Another idea is maybe Chloe’s miraculous could have changed into the wasp miraculous after she became villainess.
Wasps typically are seen as more aggressive and negatively than bees.
I find it really strange the symbolism that occurred in the show by introducing Zoe as essentially the wasp (vespera means wasp) miraculous user.
Because technically a villain character should have the wasp animal symbol whereas the hero should have the bee animal symbol.
It could be really interesting if the magical animal creatures might be able to transform too based on their owners. (And maybe make that apply only to certain animal characters).
That way we could even get some cool symbolism of Chloe’s transformation as a character. As she goes from wanting to be a hero to becoming a villain entirely.
Could have been some fun banter too. Maybe something like, you’re no longer a Queen anymore. You’re just a spiteful wasp!
Or whatever.
It’s just strange to me though. That Chloe is still essentially called the Queen Bee and has all the bee symbolism. As the ruler of a peaceful hive. It’s usually a symbol for a good leader essentially.
And it’s strange for Chloe to still have that symbolism now that the writers are determined to make her a villain.
What could have happened with Zoe and Chloe was that Chloe would redeem herself and release herself from her mother’s control, prompting Audrey to bring Zoe into the picture (having seen Zoe as a “backup”, this detail among others causing Andre and Audrey to split) so while Chloe is now working on improving herself Zoe is now under Audrey’s control. Zoe serves as a temporary minor antagonist this way, seeing being mean in a similar way Chloe did, the only way to earn her mother’s love which is different for Zoe and more important considering she hadn’t been a part of her life in the way she was Chloe’s (while Chloe saw her just as much as Zoe did, Chloe had more of a luxury in that she could revel in her mother’s fame unlike Zoe who was bullied for it). Chloe eventually sees this and helps Zoe out of Audrey’s grip, standing up to her in the process. Zoe reveals everything about why she was brought to Paris at all, and so Andre and Audrey divorce and Audrey is left in shambles with her reputation in ruins.
I will say I definitely agree with you though. I am still in the “I wanted Chloe to become a true hero” camp. I think that is the most interesting story that could have been told-and honestly the most kid friendly too. It’s a very uplifting message to give to anyone watching the show if Chloe did change and become a better person.
But, I like talking about story concepts. And so I will think about how a villain tale could be done as well.
But yeah, all your points are valid.
I also thought that the dynamic between Ladybug and Chloe was actually really interesting and fun. Basically Chloe was kind of the only one in the original hero team (Nino, Alya, Ladybug, Cat Noir, Chloe) who questioned Ladybug’s decisions. When they were together planning to fight against Hawkmoth, Chloe didn’t immediately accept Ladybug’s plans but questioned it. Same during other times she fought alongside Ladybug.
Of course Chloe was incorrect, but basically in real life it’s actually a good thing to have someone in your group who is willing to speak up and question things. To have a separate viewpoint. Because chances are eventually they will actually be correct and even if they aren’t correct it helps to solidify that a plan is good.
I actually really thought that was intriguing.
It’s kind of like having a friendly rival. Because Chloe admired Ladybug but she still wanted to be the best. So, they had this kind of rivalry on the superhero team.
Rivalry among a team of superheroes isn’t necessarily a bad thing-it actually can be a very good thing.
It’s like the rivalry that exists between Sailor Moon and Sailor Mars. They’re famously always disagreeing and had a rivalry. Sailor Mars always calling the protagonist a moron essentially-yes, she said that to the main character.
But, ultimately it actually benefited the team-and they were both wanting to be superheroes so were ultimately on the same page. Despite being vastly different in opinion and personality.
There’s lots of other shows with rivalries. In Sonic, he has a famous rivalry with Knuckles. And various other characters too. Ultimately it’s a friendly rival.
In Ben 10 there’s a rivalry between Ben and I forget his name but the guy his cousin includes on the team.
And etc., etc.
I thought Chloe and Ladybug actually had kind of a similar vibe. And I really wanted to see how that superhero rivalry would develop over time.
Plus just knowing that there’s the possibility of their relationship changing in a big way if Ladybug’s identity was revealed to Chloe was intriguing too. Instead of having just one reveal to look forward to-Ladybug and Cat Noir-adding a reveal to the rival on the team was so interesting to me.
But, yeah, all my hopes were dashed too.
I've seen some comments about Zoe being the nice Chloé replacement. And I one hundred procent agree. Thomas Asstruc just created her because he hates Chloe and want her to be an unredeemable villain. Even if he has Lila.
They could have kept good Chloé who still has some slip up attitude. But still being nicer than before. Lila could have been the unredeemable character and skipped Zoe.
I also agree that Zoe feels forced and remember. She got her miraculous the episode right after her introduction episode. She's canonically the holder who got her miraculous the fastest. If we don't talk about Marinette and Adrien.
I don't hate Zoe. But I don't like her purpose in the story. They could have made her a helping hand to Chloe's redemption.
i will always see as this instead of doing 1 good character (chloes redemption) that would have benifited everyone involved arc they chose to do 2 awful ones that wasted time
Agreed, and like Smarty Pants said, "the bee was one of the big ones", so she shouldn't have gotten it if there was going to be barely anything done with her character besides being the opposite of Chloe.
@@MiraculousHolder365 This! Drives me crazy how Marinette gives out Miraculous like candy but to give one of the big ones to someone she literally just met? Smh
@@esayem7746 LITERALLY
That is why season 2 is by far the best season yet because it actually developed Chloe yes she wasn’t outright good but she actually was working on being a better person
Zoe is just the result of Chloe’s redemption arc, without having gone through it. She literally only exists because Thomas didn’t like Chloe as a character. Ridiculous. Utterly ridiculous.
Thomas Astruc admitted that he added Zoe for the purpose of retconning Chloe’s character, because he “didn’t like” that the fans were growing more attached to Chloe than Marinette (and rightfully so)
At least we can rest easy knowing that Zoe will forever be remembered as the most blatant attempt at character assassination in fiction to this day
Woah, can you link a source??
That's how you see that m. Astruck writes like a beginner. Let me explain:
- Problem: your audience begins to love more your bully character than your main character and it's not your attention.
- Beginner writer reaction: undo everything, go back to the statu quo and add a character to replace the good part of the bully.
- Experimented writer: makes the bully do something terrible that show that the redemption arc was just manipulation and makes the main character grows as a better person.
One is laziest and quickest than the other, but the audience can never be fooled.
Are you serious so all this is about his hatred of chloe again
@@nonzamemange7612Yes and, as usual, the show tanked his F-teir mistakes 🤦♂️
Why would you like an arrogant daddy's girl more than a sweet girl who helps everyone out? Don't even think about saying "oh well, Marinette just gets away with stuff" she doesn't get away with shit
Zoe felt like a walking writing that says: "Like me and hate Chloe."
Indeed. That’s her entire purpose, to be a perfect version of Chloe so that Chloe will be hated more. But the opposite effect was achieved lol
And achieved it was
and yet she was hated in her old school for being a liar and ms "I hate Liars" Marinette lets her in her group?
Zoe is better than Chloe🤦♂️
@@riotkitty no no 50/50
Hell, if she had a new York accent, that'd make her unique (a bit). For the sisters, they could have worked on their relationship and show Chloeand Zoe growing closer, even if Chloe stays an ass to everyone else. In due time, she'll prolly change.
Ha maybe that would have worked for me
People say Zoe should’ve been hinted throughout the show, but I’m convinced the reason why she never had that foreshadow was because she was made up on the spot, in the middle of a season because Thomas was sick of Chloe and her fans.
The Bee miraculous was getting used less and less anyway, so it wouldn’t have been hard to just tweak the writing of a few scenes to fully replace Chloe.
it frustrates me how obvious the lack of planning with this show is. whenever i rewatch, i catch small inconsistencies, and it is frustrating. when i was HARDCORE in the fandom, thomas astruc would be on twitter just saying stuff, dropping bits of information, to make it look like the entire thing was planned all along when it very clearly hasnt been. it is honestly somewhat difficult to keep up with the lore (like how the miraculous work, their origins, etc) because they will give the tiniest bit of information in one season, AND THEN NEVER ELABORATE ON IT, because they decided to focus on other things in the next season, IT IS SO INFURIATING. they just throw stuff at you, stuff you cannot even theorize about or pick up on in earlier seasons, which creates such an unsatisfying rewatching experience because once the surprise is gone, there is no joy. the only reason i even rewatch the show is because i enjoy seasons 1 and 2 because THEY WERE ACTUALLY GOOD AND THE CHARACTERS WERE STILL GOOD.
@@paisley2659I think you need to accept the fact, that the show in its core is braindead fodder to sell toys and merch to teens. It was never intended to be deep or even consistent.
Keep calm and move on.