Try making a nice sharp-edged punch that just fits the hole. Set the workpiece on a soft surface, put the punch in the hole, and tap the punch (or use a small arbor press). You should be able to knock out the remaining uncut bottom of the hole and leave an easily deburred edge. If you have a lot of pieces to do, it might be worth boring a punch plate from some fairly hard steel (rather than run out of unmarked places on your soft backer).
Hey, great video! In a previous life I ran Komo machines with vacuum tables. When we did fixturing or one-off jobs, we would fly cut the top and bottom of MDF. Removing the top layer, .010" or so. The vacuum will suck though the MDF and allow for holes drilled though the plate with low loss of vacuum. The holes could then be resealed as we went preventing more vacuum loss with more holes. We would gasket and tape around the MDF as well. Not sure if it will work in you application. Hope this helps.
Hi John, I work extensively with aluminium plate on a vacuum bed with a CNC router (3 meters by 2 meters) I would suggest a solid core Formica sacrificial board, 2 mm holes drilled 10 mm apart (on such a small bed) Else use a MDF board but you can cut through if you block off properly depend on you're overall vacuum pulled, I can give you more info if you want. BTW we are doing 2mm cuts with a single flute cutter @ 1200mm/minute.
FYI, you might want to look into Datron's vacucard sacrificial paper mats. Special paper that seems to allow air/vac to pass through in vertical direction only. For most 3 to 4 inch square parts you can punch a bunch of holes down to the paper before you risk flinging the part.
It's interesting to see how things change as you learn more. Like, what would the cosine error be on how you measured the flatness of the vacuum plate at the end... lol
+NYC CNC I want to echo's Majsta's comment. Feeds and speeds are great for reference. Equally as important to me is where you identify the CAM operation used. Thanks a lot.
Wow, that shear-hog cut that aluminum plate like buttah- I noticed that your code seems way more maximized than your previous video demos with less wasted slow travel time- very nice on the eyes for watchers. Keep it up!
just make a small metal plug the same size of the hole and push it through, i do that at my shop and it works great. one shot with a deburing tool and your done. great channel by the way man. love it !
I was also thinking of custom vacuum plate fixtures for specific jobs. The superfly cutter will be almost as good as Blanchard grinding on your machine. It would be awesome if there was a way to easily use CAD tools to make the vacuum groove recess a custom shape and have it fit standard large O rings.
+NYC CNC I'd do the simple CAD version where I manually calculated the straight and semi-circular O-ring groove segments to fit the circumference of a large O-ring. And I'd use my SuperDuperFly to cut the flat surface in one pass. But I'd need to get a larger compressor. My little ultra-quiet 1HP California Air Tools compressor wouldn't be able to supply enough air for the vacuum generator. I'm almost finished with the bolt-on kit to use my CNC router as an RTV silicone 3D printer, so maybe I'd route the groove in the aluminum vacuum fixture plate on the router and then have it dispense a silicone rubber gasket into the groove. If I need a vacuum fixture plate for a quick change production job on the milling machine, I might make a custom vacuum plate and post a RUclips video. I hope your 2016 open house went well. Mr. WarMachine twisted my arm, but I had work I needed to do. Way behind, and not much mojo to git-R-done lately.
One method I have used is to take a ball-peen hammer an tap in the center of the .007" plug. You can also "oil can" it, tap from the bottom and then from the top. A couple of times from each direction and the plug should break out of the hole pretty perfectly.
I always used a sheet of MDF as my sacrifice board, fly cut both sides to take the sheen off, then we could cut all the way thru and not have to worry about hitting the table. We were cutting wood on a Komo with 2 6'x5' tables, and nothing would ever move. We used thermo-ply to cover any area where we didn't have a part and would maintain suction.
+Jon Dugan I agree. I'll go ahead and try to clarify. Sounds crazy, but MDF is permeable to vacuum, so you can put a 1/4 inch sacrifice MDF between your suction table and your work-piece.
+NYC CNC Its an exterior sheeting product for houses. It comes in 4x8 sheets and is like 1/16" thick and is non-permeable so it helps create vacuum under the part. You can cut it with a razor blade or good scissors.
Very cool! I was looking at Pierson kit a few weeks ago and almost pulled the trigger on it, but decided to build my own at the last minute.. Should be up and running by next week! I'll probably do a vid about it for the heck of it : ) . Thanks for sharing John!
I bought the pump, an electric Robinair; and also a 5 gal aluminum vacuum resovoir. In theory, I shouldn't have to run the pump continually once the system is up to pressure (or suction rather), I'm installing 1 way check valves that should allow clamping with the pump off and 5 gallons of vacuum holding against it...I should have a chance at hitting the E-stop if I cut all the way through my workpiece. I bought 1/8" gasket cord and will attempt machining a pallet. Seems legit on paper... We'll see if it actually works!
Great videos! I machine a lot of stuff on vacuum tables. Tape or laminate the backside of the plate and you can cut clean through without losing vacuum. Kyle
You need a vacuum custom fixture to remove the areas that are not sealing. Especially since you plan on making several parts. That large of plate was allowing much of the air to flow around it, and not push on it.
John you have that hydraulic press don't you? Depending on how many holes you have to make in the plate. Could you not make a die and press out the holes say 1/16 under size. Then make some soft jaws for the vice and run a end mill to clean up!
Depending on tolerances and if coolant is used you can just a sacrificial spoilboard under the part that has recess for the holes. I dont do any super high tolerance parts at work but I use 1/4 or 1/8" over the vac plate with some shallow pockets under the features Ill be milling. MDF is porous and allows the vac to pull thru it. That way I dont have to deburr and worry about leaving a skin on the part. May not work for your application but it is an option for anyone to use it.
If you have to make many of those you can get a Steel Ball bigger than the Hole Diameter and punch out the rest Material with that. That should leave a clean sharp Edge that is much easier to deburr with the Handtool than the ripped Edge from the Boxcutter.
Im looking at getting a vac table and trying to purchase this material called VilMill from Germany, its a paper adhesive that activates from tool heat, allowing you to cut all the way through your stock and cut super small parts that stay put, when they cool, they drop right off the vilmil sheet.
I'm very interested to hear your experience over time. It's a bit pricey for us not for profit home shops, but it looks like it could be a good DIY project.
if you have problems tramming in why not pin the plate? That sacrificial plate I sent you an email of a while back we use exclusively for plate parts. 35x30 .375 thick phenolic plates with 90 holes in them. I used kantwist plate clamps to hold down the plates. If you were comfortable with not going crazy with your cuts you could do that instead of vacuum and eliminate trying to cut through the small film you have to leave to keep vacuum. Just a thought.
+NYC CNC true. In that case I would put stops in to remove clamp then continue then put clamp back on. But we're usually never doing outside profile work on the plates as they come precision cut
Very interesting, but a bit confused about how to protect from metal chips and dust. Ofcourse I think to use coolant also a problem. About holding power still a question. Keep us update and inform how durable it is.
I think you need to mill a custom vac plate that won't allow vac to the areas you are removing. Then you can also mill all thru so there is a clean hole though out.
I've been thinking about having a dedicated edge following charger bit in a small router table for taking off that thin remnant. I still haven't tested it, but it seems like it could be good.
Greetings from Dublin. Great information and interested to see what the "safe" amount to leave is. For the vaccuum plate, is there an actual vaccuum pump or is it driven off the compresor using the venturi effect?
Take your part to 2 drill presses. The first one have a decent size drill and bust the pocket out of there, the second, have a big chamfering tool and it'll remove all that thin stock. Just hold it with your hands
it called leaving a onion skin it works fine in wood, the other way is getting the material from datron what they use between the vacuum and work pieces
+NYC CNC you can try that first it still works well leveing .25 mm 0.0098 inch with wood even MDF, aluminum as small as the machine can leave. that's with a pump like yours has same pressure as well, the constant running pump works just as good at 2 x the prices and is a lot quieter, but there are a lot of other good idea's to read through. I have a stack of pucks to make, as they are cheap as shit to make if you cut them it does not matter, your plate you don't wont to cut that.
Looks like a good solution to plate holding but what's the plan for clocking parts into alignment ? It looks like it would be difficult to tap the plates into square with the vacuum on.
In case you present feeds and speeds: could you please also do it in metric units? I'm not sure how many Europeans watch you videos, but it'll sure be good. Thanks and Greets!
Would it be possible to, instead of using a box cutter knife, punch the .007 thick material out with a punch and hammer? Clean up all flanges with a deburring wheel/tool?
+Lucas Hartmann depends on the accuracy you want, ive glued ally to mdf and plywood, you need to take lighter cuts but it does work pretty well, and no concerns about going too deep!
Nice video and vacuum plate. I did a lot of work on a four head shoda router using a vacuum table and doing lots of spoil boards. I have a few ideas that would help you if you want drop me a comment and I can pass on to you some more info.
You've got a CNC machine man, use it! lol No more box cutters vs aluminum, powered by soft pink fingers. That's an ER visit jut waiting to happen. What I would do is make a die and use it to punch the flash out of all of the pockets at one time, in your press. Cut a reverse version of your part (IE make the pockets into bosses, very slightly under sized to the originals) out of 4140 pre-hard (or just plain mild steel if you're not doing very many parts) and use it as a clearing punch to remove the bulk of your flash all at once from every pocket before deburring. Put the male die on the bed of your press, put the part (with the pockets facing down over the die bosses) on the male die, lay a thick hard rubber backing pad on the part, put a backing plate over the pad, and then press the assembly together until the die punches through the flash on the part, cutting your holes clear all at once (and without slicing anyone's digits). Then just deburr as normal. Another option is to use thicker material and face the back side off entirely. Workholding might be a challenge here, depending on the part size. For something like you were working on there, you can just hold it in a vise to face off the back. Bigger parts may require more heroic measures, or just opt for the die punching method.
what about making a quick die to press through the hole and punch out the little scrap on the bottom? just take round stock and cut it at an angle and then force it through the hole with a press or maybe even hit it with a hammer? lol.... the knife is slow as heck it looks like and there is the possibility of the blade breaking and sending chunks of blade flying around... its not fun when that happens, those buggers hurt lol...
The benefit is that the single point cutter allows lower horsepower machines like these to run without bogging down. Multi-insert cutters put a much higher load on the spindle, which is no problem for, say a 20HP VMC. But a little 1-1/2 HP spindle doesn't like it as much. Running a nice big, even, chip with no bogging down makes for a better surface finish. You also get the benefit of not having any slight variations in the inserts causing unevenness, but a really high-quality face mill with high quality inserts usually doesn't have that issue. An alternative for those who might already have a face mill and want to run it on a lower horsepower machine would be to just install 1 insert and run it like a fly cutter.
Suggestion: glue the work piece to a flat piece of stock allowing you to mill through the work piece and not break the vacuum. Find an adhesive that can be released with heat. Loctite or 3M
"Grimsmo knives John here" Kidding ;) Nice setup man, is it working at higher feeds and speeds without side clamps (and if not, are you going to get the mighty bites?) Cheers, thanks for sharing!
+greg mcnamara +nyc cnc If I recall, Grimsmo had to use mighty bite clamps to keep the part from moving left/right/forward/back.. the vac table was fine with enough down pressure, but depending on the load, he would see the part shift on the rubber seal.
+greg mcnamara +nyc cnc Oh, and this one is about 1k cheaper than the kit Grimsmo had if I recall.. I want to say the VacMagic kit was mid 3k, this one looks to be about 2200 msrp. Any chance for a patron discount with Pierson? :-)
you should mill notch in 2 aluminum bars that fits snug in oring grooves and set it behind o ring on back side and left or right whatever you prefrence is. after machining bore try flipping over and setup a pin in a solid holder and g81 that no rpm in spindle. hate to see you go to hospital using box cutter
+VLAHECO The holding force is much smaller than a vise, so lateral cuts need to be adjusted to prevent crashing. The path is slower, but I would not know by how much on CNC. I just know that with a manual mill, it is about 3:1 for me
Something else to look into if you haven't already would be the "vac-mat" system. They're basically thin rubber pads that have 'octopus' like suction cups that give good vacuum, even if you have through, holes. ruclips.net/video/X3yHh6N_fQQ/видео.html
Oh, that's disappointing. I just picked up a machine 2 weeks ago, and was hoping to be able to utilize it in the future, once I get past the point of just breaking a lot of carbide. :D Thanks, by the way for your videos. You and John Grimsmo have been a huge inspiration for me to be able to make it happen!
You need to learn how to correctly use a deburring tool; the way you were holding it - addressing the work at a nearly perpendicular angle - practically guarantees an imperfect, "chattered" surface to the eased edge. Also, having used vacuum plates [almost] exclusively to hold my work for the last 30+ years, I can give you some time-proven secrets to improving your vacuum plate AND regarding how to use it efficiently. Hit me up on Facebook if you care to be edumacated further.
Hi John,Check this system out... ruclips.net/video/xr3lfAvQuJs/видео.html.The small holes are so small that all of them do not have to be covered for it to work. This allows you to cut all the way through and into the pad a very small amount. If you do cut into the pad, it is a one time use pad.
We would have used a pin router. to finish out the holes. It is a pin in the table matched up to a router mounted over it. It has a foot control to bring the spindle down to cutting depth. ruclips.net/video/U5moMnKWlBk/видео.html might be able to do the same thing on a mill put a pin on the table use a down spiral cutter.
I dunno... Seems like a lot of cleanup work. And cutting out the hole with a knife is simply not safe... If you're going to continue down that path, better get some Cut-proof Gloves... Is it not possible to flip the work piece over to finish the holes...??? Some side stops could center the work piece... I just don't know... Sorry...
+metalhead2508 That doesn't seem entirely accurate... The Vacuum plate is much larger than the work piece... What I can see from here, it appears to be creating vacuum all all points, on the plate, even outside of the work piece... I'm going to check some other videos about Vacuum Plates... Maybe I'm missing something...
John you really need some good deburring tool something like NOGA system. I use one of these rotating deburrers and it is absolutely killer in holes deburring and edges. ruclips.net/video/mfkErHl4xzM/видео.html
Try making a nice sharp-edged punch that just fits the hole. Set the workpiece on a soft surface, put the punch in the hole, and tap the punch (or use a small arbor press). You should be able to knock out the remaining uncut bottom of the hole and leave an easily deburred edge.
If you have a lot of pieces to do, it might be worth boring a punch plate from some fairly hard steel (rather than run out of unmarked places on your soft backer).
Hey, great video! In a previous life I ran Komo machines with vacuum tables. When we did fixturing or one-off jobs, we would fly cut the top and bottom of MDF. Removing the top layer, .010" or so. The vacuum will suck though the MDF and allow for holes drilled though the plate with low loss of vacuum. The holes could then be resealed as we went preventing more vacuum loss with more holes. We would gasket and tape around the MDF as well. Not sure if it will work in you application. Hope this helps.
Cool stuff John. Have you talked about how the vacuum plate works in another video?
Hi John, I work extensively with aluminium plate on a vacuum bed with a CNC router (3 meters by 2 meters)
I would suggest a solid core Formica sacrificial board, 2 mm holes drilled 10 mm apart (on such a small bed)
Else use a MDF board but you can cut through if you block off properly depend on you're overall vacuum pulled, I can give you more info if you want. BTW we are doing 2mm cuts with a single flute cutter @ 1200mm/minute.
FYI, you might want to look into Datron's vacucard sacrificial paper mats. Special paper that seems to allow air/vac to pass through in vertical direction only. For most 3 to 4 inch square parts you can punch a bunch of holes down to the paper before you risk flinging the part.
That finish with the fly cutter is unbelievable
Well if you got many items with the same pattern, a custom vacuum plate would be an option. They're fairly easy to make...
It's interesting to see how things change as you learn more. Like, what would the cosine error be on how you measured the flatness of the vacuum plate at the end... lol
Great video, especially like information about feeds and speeds during cutting on bottom of the screen. Great job John.
+NYC CNC I wish i could afford one of those supafly tools they are sweet ever since you got it it impresses me.
+NYC CNC I want to echo's Majsta's comment. Feeds and speeds are great for reference. Equally as important to me is where you identify the CAM operation used. Thanks a lot.
Wow, that shear-hog cut that aluminum plate like buttah- I noticed that your code seems way more maximized than your previous video demos with less wasted slow travel time- very nice on the eyes for watchers. Keep it up!
just make a small metal plug the same size of the hole and push it through, i do that at my shop and it works great. one shot with a deburing tool and your done. great channel by the way man. love it !
How about a trim router with a flush cutting bit to cleanup your holes?
Thank you for the metric values in your video. Makes it so much easier when you live in the "metric bubble"
+1AB09CC3 Agree, it makes the content so much fun to watch.
I was also thinking of custom vacuum plate fixtures for specific jobs. The superfly cutter will be almost as good as Blanchard grinding on your machine. It would be awesome if there was a way to easily use CAD tools to make the vacuum groove recess a custom shape and have it fit standard large O rings.
+NYC CNC I'd do the simple CAD version where I manually calculated the straight and semi-circular O-ring groove segments to fit the circumference of a large O-ring. And I'd use my SuperDuperFly to cut the flat surface in one pass. But I'd need to get a larger compressor. My little ultra-quiet 1HP California Air Tools compressor wouldn't be able to supply enough air for the vacuum generator. I'm almost finished with the bolt-on kit to use my CNC router as an RTV silicone 3D printer, so maybe I'd route the groove in the aluminum vacuum fixture plate on the router and then have it dispense a silicone rubber gasket into the groove. If I need a vacuum fixture plate for a quick change production job on the milling machine, I might make a custom vacuum plate and post a RUclips video.
I hope your 2016 open house went well. Mr. WarMachine twisted my arm, but I had work I needed to do. Way behind, and not much mojo to git-R-done lately.
One method I have used is to take a ball-peen hammer an tap in the center of the .007" plug. You can also "oil can" it, tap from the bottom and then from the top. A couple of times from each direction and the plug should break out of the hole pretty perfectly.
I've just noticed the speeds and feeds are in metric too. Fantastic help for us guys in the UK :D
I have used the Porous Automatic Valve Type Vacuum chuck, it allows milling through the workpiece at one time.
I always used a sheet of MDF as my sacrifice board, fly cut both sides to take the sheen off, then we could cut all the way thru and not have to worry about hitting the table. We were cutting wood on a Komo with 2 6'x5' tables, and nothing would ever move. We used thermo-ply to cover any area where we didn't have a part and would maintain suction.
By cut all the way thru I mean we would cut the depth of the material plus 0.10"
+Jon Dugan I agree. I'll go ahead and try to clarify. Sounds crazy, but MDF is permeable to vacuum, so you can put a 1/4 inch sacrifice MDF between your suction table and your work-piece.
+NYC CNC Its an exterior sheeting product for houses. It comes in 4x8 sheets and is like 1/16" thick and is non-permeable so it helps create vacuum under the part. You can cut it with a razor blade or good scissors.
John,
Check out there machinable top plates for the vacuum pallet.
Very cool! I was looking at Pierson kit a few weeks ago and almost pulled the trigger on it, but decided to build my own at the last minute.. Should be up and running by next week! I'll probably do a vid about it for the heck of it : ) . Thanks for sharing John!
I bought the pump, an electric Robinair; and also a 5 gal aluminum vacuum resovoir. In theory, I shouldn't have to run the pump continually once the system is up to pressure (or suction rather), I'm installing 1 way check valves that should allow clamping with the pump off and 5 gallons of vacuum holding against it...I should have a chance at hitting the E-stop if I cut all the way through my workpiece. I bought 1/8" gasket cord and will attempt machining a pallet. Seems legit on paper... We'll see if it actually works!
Great videos! I machine a lot of stuff on vacuum tables. Tape or laminate the backside of the plate and you can cut clean through without losing vacuum.
Kyle
That's way better than cutting short of a depth, and then facing the opposite side off like i was thinking.
You need a vacuum custom fixture to remove the areas that are not sealing. Especially since you plan on making several parts. That large of plate was allowing much of the air to flow around it, and not push on it.
That finish is just so clean, nice job!
John, great video....You might try using a large countersink in a portable drill to remove the final couple of thousands of material
John you have that hydraulic press don't you? Depending on how many holes you have to make in the plate. Could you not make a die and press out the holes say 1/16 under size. Then make some soft jaws for the vice and run a end mill to clean up!
Depending on tolerances and if coolant is used you can just a sacrificial spoilboard under the part that has recess for the holes. I dont do any super high tolerance parts at work but I use 1/4 or 1/8" over the vac plate with some shallow pockets under the features Ill be milling. MDF is porous and allows the vac to pull thru it. That way I dont have to deburr and worry about leaving a skin on the part. May not work for your application but it is an option for anyone to use it.
Love the setup.... And love the fact you also include metric info on the toolpathing ! Thanks John.. Grtz Marcel
Finally my insomnia pays off. I get to see the Wednesday widgets before everyone else.
John,
Thank you for posting this!! Its one of the Vacuum plates I am looking at, and there doesn't seem to be any other videos on it. Looks great!!
If you have to make many of those you can get a Steel Ball bigger than the Hole Diameter and punch out the rest Material with that. That should leave a clean sharp Edge that is much easier to deburr with the Handtool than the ripped Edge from the Boxcutter.
Im looking at getting a vac table and trying to purchase this material called VilMill from Germany, its a paper adhesive that activates from tool heat, allowing you to cut all the way through your stock and cut super small parts that stay put, when they cool, they drop right off the vilmil sheet.
I'm very interested to hear your experience over time. It's a bit pricey for us not for profit home shops, but it looks like it could be a good DIY project.
PUT THE RUBBER IN A SQUARE AROUND THE HOLE AND YOU WON'T LOSE VACUMN
if you have problems tramming in why not pin the plate? That sacrificial plate I sent you an email of a while back we use exclusively for plate parts. 35x30 .375 thick phenolic plates with 90 holes in them. I used kantwist plate clamps to hold down the plates. If you were comfortable with not going crazy with your cuts you could do that instead of vacuum and eliminate trying to cut through the small film you have to leave to keep vacuum. Just a thought.
+NYC CNC true. In that case I would put stops in to remove clamp then continue then put clamp back on. But we're usually never doing outside profile work on the plates as they come precision cut
Very interesting, but a bit confused about how to protect from metal chips and dust. Ofcourse I think to use coolant also a problem. About holding power still a question. Keep us update and inform how durable it is.
I think you need to mill a custom vac plate that won't allow vac to the areas you are removing. Then you can also mill all thru so there is a clean hole though out.
NYC CNC
Well then I wonder if you could use plastic plugs like for hydraulic fittings to plug the hole after machining thru?
I've been thinking about having a dedicated edge following charger bit in a small router table for taking off that thin remnant. I still haven't tested it, but it seems like it could be good.
Greetings from Dublin. Great information and interested to see what the "safe" amount to leave is. For the vaccuum plate, is there an actual vaccuum pump or is it driven off the compresor using the venturi effect?
If you are doing multiple pieces why not gasket around the hole
and mill right through?
+MrJohnnaz yeah this is what i was about to ask as well. of course you don't want to mill the vacuum plate anyways
I thought that's how these tables were supposed to work.
Could be a great addition to the tooling... What kind of vacuum does the unit pull (per sq in)? Great stuff!!
14lbs of holding force per in^2 of part. See this video and fast forward to 2:58s: ruclips.net/video/ZpDq_q3JX1c/видео.html
Take your part to 2 drill presses. The first one have a decent size drill and bust the pocket out of there, the second, have a big chamfering tool and it'll remove all that thin stock. Just hold it with your hands
john - the QUALITY of this video is STUPENDOUS! best, @daveprecise
I work in the plastic industry of course it is easier to cut/debur the thin stock. If we use the Vacuum Plate we leave between 0,3 and 0,7 mm.
it called leaving a onion skin it works fine in wood, the other way is getting the material from datron what they use between the vacuum and work pieces
+NYC CNC you can try that first it still works well leveing .25 mm 0.0098 inch with wood even MDF, aluminum as small as the machine can leave.
that's with a pump like yours has same pressure as well, the constant running pump works just as good at 2 x the prices and is a lot quieter, but there are a lot of other good idea's to read through.
I have a stack of pucks to make, as they are cheap as shit to make if you cut them it does not matter, your plate you don't wont to cut that.
Can you do a follow up about fixturing small cut out parts in
+NYC CNC Absolutely! How can I do that? Email?
Looks like a good solution to plate holding but what's the plan for clocking parts into alignment ? It looks like it would be difficult to tap the plates into square with the vacuum on.
Fair point but what about when you need to clock the other side to continue the job ? I haven't done much of that myself, so appreciate the insights.
Hi John,
Nice vacuum plate. How much vacuum did you use to hold that part? Sure is clean.
Take Care,
Reid
Are you connected to an air compressor outside of the machine? Looking for a vacuum plate for a pallet changer.
In case you present feeds and speeds: could you please also do it in metric units? I'm not sure how many Europeans watch you videos, but it'll sure be good. Thanks and Greets!
maybe you need a thin spoil item that is also porous that will transfer the vacuum? Open cell foam sheet?
Would it be possible to, instead of using a box cutter knife, punch the .007 thick material out with a punch and hammer? Clean up all flanges with a deburring wheel/tool?
can you do a video on lining up and machining 2 sided pieces? Im have a problem lining the parts back up
+metalhead2508 I use a vise and a vise stop however they still are slightly off
What kind of material would you use as a sacrificial surface? How bad would it be using cheap mdf?
+Lucas Hartmann depends on the accuracy you want, ive glued ally to mdf and plywood, you need to take lighter cuts but it does work pretty well, and no concerns about going too deep!
+Lucas Hartmann Aluminum
Hi John just a thought have you tried Mitee- Bite you can hold very tight or just tight enough and they have ones that you can cut into
Seems like you're not doing anything on the outside so I thought you could have held it tightly and pop the holes in
Nice video and vacuum plate. I did a lot of work on a four head shoda router using a vacuum table and doing lots of spoil boards. I have a few ideas that would help you if you want drop me a comment and I can pass on to you some more info.
I know this is a year old now, but Datron's page on vacuum tables shows them using a sacrificial layer that looks like paper.
Do these clamp well enough for high speed? Like 8,000-10,000RPM at 100-200ipm with a facemill?
You've got a CNC machine man, use it! lol No more box cutters vs aluminum, powered by soft pink fingers. That's an ER visit jut waiting to happen.
What I would do is make a die and use it to punch the flash out of all of the pockets at one time, in your press.
Cut a reverse version of your part (IE make the pockets into bosses, very slightly under sized to the originals) out of 4140 pre-hard (or just plain mild steel if you're not doing very many parts) and use it as a clearing punch to remove the bulk of your flash all at once from every pocket before deburring.
Put the male die on the bed of your press, put the part (with the pockets facing down over the die bosses) on the male die, lay a thick hard rubber backing pad on the part, put a backing plate over the pad, and then press the assembly together until the die punches through the flash on the part, cutting your holes clear all at once (and without slicing anyone's digits). Then just deburr as normal.
Another option is to use thicker material and face the back side off entirely. Workholding might be a challenge here, depending on the part size. For something like you were working on there, you can just hold it in a vise to face off the back. Bigger parts may require more heroic measures, or just opt for the die punching method.
+NYC CNC If you do it that way, I demand video. lol
Good luck with the open house!
what about making a quick die to press through the hole and punch out the little scrap on the bottom? just take round stock and cut it at an angle and then force it through the hole with a press or maybe even hit it with a hammer? lol.... the knife is slow as heck it looks like and there is the possibility of the blade breaking and sending chunks of blade flying around... its not fun when that happens, those buggers hurt lol...
Is there a benefit to using a fly-cutter vs a face milling cutter?
The benefit is that the single point cutter allows lower horsepower machines like these to run without bogging down. Multi-insert cutters put a much higher load on the spindle, which is no problem for, say a 20HP VMC. But a little 1-1/2 HP spindle doesn't like it as much. Running a nice big, even, chip with no bogging down makes for a better surface finish.
You also get the benefit of not having any slight variations in the inserts causing unevenness, but a really high-quality face mill with high quality inserts usually doesn't have that issue.
An alternative for those who might already have a face mill and want to run it on a lower horsepower machine would be to just install 1 insert and run it like a fly cutter.
Wrenchmonkey
Awesome response, thanks!
Those sounds are awesome!
hi can i ask about this vacuum generater i wanna to buy one for my final year project
Try a piece of cardboard or very thin MDF as a sacrificial layer.
Suggestion: glue the work piece to a flat piece of stock allowing you to mill through the work piece and not break the vacuum. Find an adhesive that can be released with heat. Loctite or 3M
+George Steele
May as well just clamp it at that point.
wouldn't a big counter sink bit be easier?
Which Pierson product is this?
We always said broken indicator out loud for a dead nuts grind!
"Grimsmo knives John here"
Kidding ;) Nice setup man, is it working at higher feeds and speeds without side clamps (and if not, are you going to get the mighty bites?)
Cheers, thanks for sharing!
What happened to the old 1100 ?
Why don't you ask your buddy John Grimsmo how thin you can cut it and still keep vacuum? He was using this style of vac table for a while.
+greg mcnamara +nyc cnc If I recall, Grimsmo had to use mighty bite clamps to keep the part from moving left/right/forward/back.. the vac table was fine with enough down pressure, but depending on the load, he would see the part shift on the rubber seal.
+greg mcnamara +nyc cnc Oh, and this one is about 1k cheaper than the kit Grimsmo had if I recall.. I want to say the VacMagic kit was mid 3k, this one looks to be about 2200 msrp. Any chance for a patron discount with Pierson? :-)
I don't know how many plates you have to make, but why don't you make a custom vac-plate for the vac-plate that will accommodate the work piece??
you should mill notch in 2 aluminum bars that fits snug in oring grooves and set it behind o ring on back side and left or right whatever you prefrence is. after machining bore try flipping over and setup a pin in a solid holder and g81 that no rpm in spindle. hate to see you go to hospital using box cutter
+NYC CNC Thanks if it works post video please... I love your channel it great for new info
vacuum plateeee? whattttt... that is awesome..
wowww
but you need to work slowly with this plate? the paths .
+VLAHECO The holding force is much smaller than a vise, so lateral cuts need to be adjusted to prevent crashing. The path is slower, but I would not know by how much on CNC. I just know that with a manual mill, it is about 3:1 for me
+NYC CNC wow.. that is a cool plate.
How is the vacuum plate working for you?
WHAT ABOUT REFERANCE?
You need to get familiar with a mallet for removing that excess material.
Why do you run so slow? I'd have that cutter going 8000 rpm @ 400 ipm
Something else to look into if you haven't already would be the "vac-mat" system. They're basically thin rubber pads that have 'octopus' like suction cups that give good vacuum, even if you have through, holes.
ruclips.net/video/X3yHh6N_fQQ/видео.html
Oh, that's disappointing. I just picked up a machine 2 weeks ago, and was hoping to be able to utilize it in the future, once I get past the point of just breaking a lot of carbide. :D
Thanks, by the way for your videos. You and John Grimsmo have been a huge inspiration for me to be able to make it happen!
Did you get the job? 😉
Cool toy, but I'll stay with super glue / heat gun when clamping isn't an option with non-ferrous materials.
+shootgp multiple items (clones), I think a jig would be easier and faster.
You need to learn how to correctly use a deburring tool; the way you were holding it - addressing the work at a nearly perpendicular angle - practically guarantees an imperfect, "chattered" surface to the eased edge.
Also, having used vacuum plates [almost] exclusively to hold my work for the last 30+ years, I can give you some time-proven secrets to improving your vacuum plate AND regarding how to use it efficiently. Hit me up on Facebook if you care to be edumacated further.
Take a sheet metal drill instead of box cutter.
Hi John,Check this system out... ruclips.net/video/xr3lfAvQuJs/видео.html.The small holes are so small that all of them do not have to be covered for it to work. This allows you to cut all the way through and into the pad a very small amount. If you do cut into the pad, it is a one time use pad.
We would have used a pin router. to finish out the holes. It is a pin in the table matched up to a router mounted over it. It has a foot control to bring the spindle down to cutting depth. ruclips.net/video/U5moMnKWlBk/видео.html might be able to do the same thing on a mill put a pin on the table use a down spiral cutter.
I dunno... Seems like a lot of cleanup work. And cutting out the hole with a knife is simply not safe... If you're going to continue down that path, better get some Cut-proof Gloves... Is it not possible to flip the work piece over to finish the holes...??? Some side stops could center the work piece... I just don't know... Sorry...
+metalhead2508 That doesn't seem entirely accurate... The Vacuum plate is much larger than the work piece... What I can see from here, it appears to be creating vacuum all all points, on the plate, even outside of the work piece... I'm going to check some other videos about Vacuum Plates... Maybe I'm missing something...
+DStray Cat
All the ports that aren't covered by the part will be plugged (or no vacuum will be applied to them).
box cutter=no bueno... does not belong on the bench by the machine. much better at opening boxes. lol
John you really need some good deburring tool something like NOGA system. I use one of these rotating deburrers and it is absolutely killer in holes deburring and edges. ruclips.net/video/mfkErHl4xzM/видео.html
This is nonsense, why waste so much time?
Vacuum fixtures suck!
zone out the vacuum plate 4,5 each with check valve then put stops in (x,y)for work to push on , and also this will work for set up