What To Do When You Get Bad Feedback On Your Writing
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 11 июн 2023
- I entered a novel competition that guaranteed to give me feedback on the first 5000 words of my book.
What came back was part useful and part...not so much. That's just how writing feedback goes though.
The tricky part is for writers to figure out which bits of feedback to take forward and implement, and which to disregard.
It's about ego, and self-evaluation.
It's hard. I hope this helps.
Thanks for watching!
Read my articles and stories:
/ kierenwestwood
vocal.media/authors/kieren-we...
kierenwestwood.substack.com/
MY NOVELLA IN FLASH - GOLD FURY:
US link: www.amazon.com/dp/B093MKXBY5
UK link: www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B093MKXBY5
MY PUBLISHED STORIES:
www.fivesouth.net/post/kieren...
freeflashfiction.com/fiction/...
MY WEBSITE:
www.kierenwestwood.com/
ALL THE MUSIC I USE FOR MY VIDEOS:
share.epidemicsound.com/027qfv
Some of the links above are affiliate links. This means that, at zero cost to you, I will earn an affiliate commission if you click through the link and finalize a purchase.
Omg the character name thing thank you!!! I just left a critique where everyone else had a first chapter with 5 new people within the first two pages. I was in first person, focusing on a clear narrative to start off with. You’re not alone I don’t enjoy being bombarded with characters it makes me lose focus and interest.
I really appreciate your honesty in this video. So often, I feel like we as writers are asked to accept feedback at all costs without really delving into whether or not it's right for us (not saying that feedback isn't useful, just that *some* feedback should be taken with a grain of salt or even discarded).
As for ensemble casts, I really like them. Keigo Higashino's Journey Under the Midnight Sun is a great example of a mystery novel with a large cast handled well, imo. I also enjoy the way Jo Nesbø gives readers brief insights into various characters' thoughts and feelings in his mystery novels.
Thank you! I had to fight my own inner monologue when I was making this video because I kept thinking of myself as arrogant or ignorant when I was rejecting some of the feedback, but it's really not true. That judgement I suppose is yet another skill that we writers have to learn and build!
Thanks for the recommendations, I'll look in to Journey Under the Midnight Sun in particular, it sounds like my kind of thing! :)
I think one should avoid artificial mysteries. A mystery created by the narrator by not telling something, which is not a mystery for the characters. As reader I feel somewhat fooled and it makes the narrator visible. Of course, this in general, there are always exceptions.
Oh my gosh, that "ours or theirs" part just made me want to read your book more. What did they have against subtlety?
I actually like the pronouns as chapter opening. It seems like the right kind of distance,.
Not being able to identify the inciting incident, isn't that a good thing? As opposed to reading a book where you say "Oh look! It's the Inciting Incident!"
It kinda sounds like they want you to make it more suitable for middle schoolers.
I've been expecting from you a misty, meandering journey through a poetic reality that leaves me contemplating. I still am.
Yeah, you and me think similarly, I can tell.
I really don't know what they had against subtlety, but I'm not going to change fundamental elements of my style. It wouldn't be the same book if I did.
I always want to make my writing as accessible as possible, I'm no lit-snob, I just want to tell people an entertaining story, but I don't think that essentially 'dumbing down' the book is the way to do that.
People are smart, readers especially, if they're into it, they'll get it, if they're not, it's not their kind of book, which is also fine.
Thanks for the support, that description sounds beautiful, not sure I can live up to that but I'm giving it my best shot!
I'm in the midst of dev edits so I'm with you on the feedback making your story grow. I'm with you on there not needing to be one sole main character that we follow through the story, if it works it works!
If it works it works, I think is something I need to have a bit of trust in! I do feel like it works, but as ever it's hard to know.
Hope your edits are going well and you're not half-buried under scrumpled up bits of paper and post it notes like I often am :)
Make it a prologue! I love good prologues.
That's what I ended up doing :D
I know I'm late to party commenting, but my take is that I get very annoyed seeing feedback from readers in the "I must know everything all the time" camp. A big reason I read (and watch) is to FIND OUT what's going to happen: in the next scene and in the book (or show or movie) as a whole. In my view, a skilled author gets you curious, excited, or stressed about what's going to happen next by building questions and raising tension. "Ours or theirs?" does both. I think it's great.
I’m with you. I think there’s some readers who are just never going to gel with my kind of storytelling. That’s ok with me.
I used to know someone that would read the last page of every book first so they could know how it turned out…absolutely unfathomable!
Kieren - I just finished writing my first book, if you can ever say that it is well and truly done. The book surprised me; it went places I didn't expect, but it ended up, pretty much, where I thought and planned that it would. The start, the prologue, however, did change at the end of my story telling process. While the original prologue did fit with the overall plot, it needed to be there, it fulfilled a role - providing the main character with drive - it did not, however, fit the role, to my mind, of a prologue - which is to set something up that readers need to know before they read the story - underlying reasons for the hook, if you will. I ended up moving my original prologue to chapter one and I wrote a new prologue, in my case a different time and place from the occurrences of the current story, that gave the readers bit of what they needed to start reading. In short, prologues are up to the story teller, sometimes they are needed, sometimes not. Maybe they are a crutch for the bad storyteller, I guess time will tell on that one...
Ah, if there's ever a point where a book feels finished, I've never reached it!
Thanks for your thoughts on prologues. My prologue (if it becomes such) needs to be there I think. It earns it's keep in my opinion and I can list what it adds to the story, so hopefully I'm on the right track with it.
I suppose there's nothing else to do but move things around and see how it feels. Appreciate the thoughts from a writer who's been there, thank you :)
Dude I really do need a central protagonist to follow while they protag. I can only think of song of ice and fire as a successful no main character novel personally and that was luck-based that people got caught up in season one. It was famously a difficult show to attach to during the first season before they made it clear there is no main character, in fact they’ll kill whoever you think it is.
Yeah, that's the example I often think of, and the effect I was worried about in the ambassador's chapter.
Oooh, 'ours or theirs' without an answer is a line id love to read! I dont need to know context, just that the two speaking are on one 'side' and other people are on another 'side' of something
Perfect, thank you. It's these kinds of little questions that can really help me figure our if my overall approach is okay. Appreciate the answer :)
First of all, thank you again for another fantastic video. Your videos are always extremely helpful and informative. I understand where you’re coming from when you say you don’t want to kill off too many of your babies. I feel the same way when I receive constructive criticism or feedback.
I’ve recently put out a few chapters of my novel. And honestly, the feedback was quite good, but the problem they had with it was that they found one of my characters too like-able for them to believe they would ever betray one of my main characters and they thought I should change it.
However for me, that was a huge part of the plot twist. I feel like as a writer, that even my “antagonist” needs to be humanized, and the reader should relate to them in some way. That’s part of great storytelling. Just my opinion.
Once again, thank you for the video!
Thanks so much!
I know exactly what you mean. It’s so hard to know if you’re just confident in your story or you’re ignoring valid feedback. My method for figuring it out isn’t very convenient, but it’s time. If I still feel the same way about my story/the feedback after a few weeks, I tend to settle a bit.
I think having a "main" character depends on the genre and, therefore, the type of reader that will typically pick up your book.
It's extremely common in fantasy to have multiple characters, all with full POVs, backstories, plots, and mini-arcs. As a fantasy reader, i don't need an author to tell me who to root for or follow, I will decide myself!
In other genres, i don't think it's that common, so I think a lot readers feel like they need someone to "follow" or they just simply don't want to have to remember the differences of so many characters.
There's always exceptions of course, but I think looking at the type of reader your genre typically draws is important when crafting your story.
I'm writing two novels, one a general fiction and the other a fantasy. The gen fic has only one POV while the fantasy is more of an ensemble with 4 main POVs.
'I don't need an author to tell me who to root for or follow, I will decide myself' - I LOVE THAT! That's how I read too.
Great point about genre/reader expectations, that's something I could do with considering much more next time around. Thanks!
good luck! I`ll read it when it`s finished.
Thank you so much! I really appreciate the support.
I always start with the premise that whatever the critique, it's coming from a reader. And that fact gives them all the authority in the world to tell me how the book comes across. To that reader. And I understand that this reader, however ill-tempered or wrong-headed, will not be alone once the book is published. So, the question then is: am I good with losing such readers? Or, is there something I can do, something simple, to keep them onboard with the project?
It amazes me how even the most dunderheaded critiques, where the reader clearly didn't *get* what I was doing, how these critiques come back around later in the process, and I find an elegant way to help them out and change a thing in such away that actually does the "stupid ass" thing they wanted me to do!
Like, I have a world where people die of stress - get stressed out, there's a such-and-such percent chance you'll drop where you stand - and a murmuration of blackbirds falls out of the sky, dead birds falling all around, at a hospital and a whole lot of people die witnessing it. What are the odds, right?
I had a reader not realize that when I was talking about "the dead" at one point, that I was talking about actual people and not the birds. I swear, the distinction was totally clear from context, and no other reader of the fifty or more people who have been exposed to the WIP has made such complaint. But, eventually, I realized that what I'm writing about may not be clear, not on the level of prose or style, but because what I'm describing, if you, y'know, take it all in, is ghastly and depressing. I realized I needed to factor *that* in as something that can make the story less clear. Getting upset can also interfere with reading comprehension. And, bottom line, an upset reader is an emersed reader. And she lost track in the midst of all the death. Birds, people, which?
So, it was actually very helpful feedback. And I went back and added a few lines of disambiguating clarity:
As bad an outbreak as I’ve seen. Everyone down-stressworkers in uniform, patients, some of them children-everyone. As if they’d dropped from the sky along with the birds.
So, sometimes, readers who really don't get what you're writing, are readers who are trying very hard to get it, and readers with that much investment might well be telling you how to deepen their emersion and broaden the book's appeal.
That's a really insightful angle to look at it from, thank you. As with all writers I'm sure, I want as many readers as possible to enjoy what I write.
Having said that, I want what they read to be 'what I wrote' appearing as I intended.
As with everything writing related though, there has to be some give and take. I need to figure out how much my intentions are really worth, when engagement could be much better if I relaxed them a little.
Thanks for providing an example to demonstrate your point. It really does help. Your concept sounds very interesting to me, I absolute can imagine a world where people might drop dead from stress!
Also, for your ambassador chapter, I think (1) prologues, like everything else in storytelling, are great if they're well-executed (and short in most cases), (2) prologues can be a great place to establish tone and genre elements so if the chapter ends with the ambassador being killed by a mysterious weapon that looms large throughout the story, it seems like a great candidate, and (3) A Game of Thrones (the novel) opens with a one-and-done character witnessing a big event and then dying, so it's definitely not unheard of or inherently bad. (I think GRRM used this tactic in all of the Song of Ice and Fire books but can no longer remember).
That’s definitely the kind of effect I was going for, and I’ve since taken that approach and moved things around, it was a big improvement. Appreciate your thoughts! ☺️
I like stories, thereby write stories, that follow multiple characters that all, in their own way, move the story along. I can enjoy a single person focus story. I have to as it seems that is what most people write. That might be why the reviewer complained. They may not be used to following multiple people within the same story.
As to the Prologue question, I see them as a terrific springboard that arms me with information then plops me in the middle of the action.
Thank you, I share your enthusiasm for that kind of story, I'm definitely keeping it mostly the same. I may elevate one character, I may not.
Thanks for your thoughts on a prologue too, I'm definitely leaning towards that option at the moment!
My prologue starts with the antagonist as well. But I think, because it sets the tone for the story (darker theme), and there's a near five year time jump after her opening scene, it's necessary.
If I were to start with my protagonist, it would set a completely different mood for the story (far too "normal", which is on purpose, to show a juxtaposition in their lives), and the readers might be upset when it turns dark. On top of that, I'd open myself up to having to backtrack, and possibly create a flashback to explain the antagonist's motives. Those options sound way more clunky and problematic to me.
So, I'm hoping when I get through the 1st round of drafts, and send it to betas, I don't get the advice you've been given...but, on the otherhand, you've given me the confidence to ignore what I don't think is improving feedback.
So, thank you for that.
Happy writing and chin up! You've gotten so much farther than many people, and that's something to be very proud of. ❤😊
Thank you! Appreciate the support.
It's far from my first rodeo with novel feedback, but each novel brings it's aspirations and disappointments anew doesn't it? Sounds to me like your prologue was well thought out from the start so I'm sure you won't get the same feedback I've had, but if you do then like you said, ignore what doesn't fit :)
@@KierenWestwoodWriting Absolutely. And I think, at least based on what you shared with us, much of the feedback you received is a product of impatient reading expectations.
We are in a time with an endless supply of instant gratification with the medias we consumed. On one hand, it's wonderful to find exactly what you wanted and get it right then. On the other, it forms a habit of thinking everything should be as easy and fast. But some books are meant to be read slowly, and we should be willing to give them our patience, and trust that the author will unfold the story details in their own time.
Sometimes, that's the point after all; the author is making you feel the same impatience their characters are feeling, the same confusion or fear.
Some books people think are boring or slow, for me, end up being so much deeper than most people allow themselves to see. It's one thing to put me in a character's head, and let me see what they think and feel, but it's a much harder thing to give me both that surface level of information, while subtly creating the same emotions with the pacing of the text.
We'll never please all readers, ever. But, hopefully, we find the readers we were always meaning to find, and that will be enough. 😊
I think you should delve more into the backstory of one of them, bring them to the beginning and make them the pretty much MC
This is the option I think I'm going to take. How that'll look though, is another thing...
@@KierenWestwoodWriting from the little or a lot that I may or may not know, picking the character you think can score the most points with readers and bringing them to the front of the line, that’s definitely the best option.
Hi Kieren, I love your videos and find your advice very useful even though your writing style is probably very different to mine. Personally I enjoy following one main protagonist in first person present tense, but that is my personal preference. I’m sure many readers enjoy multiple points of view. I think the feedback you received was that person’s preference and no reflection on the story you are telling in your unique style. Thanks again for uploading these videos 😊
I think you do need once central character (shuggie in Shuggie Bain and Oscar Wao in The Brief Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao) And you can still follow other people in the story to give it more dimension. Which the novels I mentioned above do. I'd think about one main character and then bounce off of them when introducing side characters? Maybe? I'm also some who looooves a big cast lol so I fully get you, Kieren.
Thank you for your thoughts, quite a few viewers are recommending a main character. That consistency of opinion gives me confidence to make some changes I think. I'm probably going to look at elevating one of my characters to a more prominent position. It would have the added benefit of making a synopsis easier to write too!
@@KierenWestwoodWriting Yep, I think elevating one character a bit more without outright stating 'hey this is the main protag' is a good idea. I'm with you, I haaaate writing a synopsis!
Decided to check one of the Dean Koontz books I've got (I really like his writing), and he starts the novel off with a female pronoun, which her name is then said a few short sentences after by someone else. So if Dean Koontz can get away with it, so can you. ;) But it is also true that he doesn't do it for every chapter.
Me personally, I have a bad habit of switching between past and present tenses randomly and not noticing it until I'm so far in that it becomes a headache to have to go back and correct it. For example: I might say, "she watched," or "she ran," but then later I say, "he goes," or "he tries." So I feel your frustrations.
6:43 I like the vagueness of this tbh. I feel that being too specific here would kill some of the mystery as to who these "people" might be and which side they might be on. For example: If you had said the CIA, then we already have an idea that these people are, at least, *supposed* to be good. Although they may not actually be so, our opinions of them are already swayed before we meet them. Which would also point to Juliette and the other person as being the bad guys, so we know that what they're doing is nefarious.
Having a central character is nice, but should never be a hard and fast rule. A few characters of equal importance can be just as good, otherwise you end up putting yourself in a box and making your storytelling too rigid with "rules." Also by having other significant characters, it allows the reader to connect with each of them better in order to understand what drives each person to act the way that they do, as well as to bear witness to the unique challenges that they all are struggling to overcome, as opposed to following one person's expeditions for the entire length of the novel.
These are just my thoughts from this video. If I'd been able to actually read the first 5,000 words, I may have different opinions. Sorry for the long wall of text btw. 😅
Thanks so much for your thoughts, I found them really reassuring!
You're absolutely right about the mystery of 'ours or theirs'. I hadn't thought of it like that, but if I was to confirm it was CIA or something, it would lead readers to try to side with them even subconsciouly. That's an important point.
It's nice to know there are readers out there who agree with the apporoach I've taken with this.
Oh yeah, I've swapped tenses before without noticing too. I wrote a novel in second person once and kept slipping into first all the way through, it was a nightmare to edit. So much CTRL and F!
I, too, am big into writing mystery. On the face of it, I like the "ours or theirs" ambiguity because it implies psychology. The things we choose not to be clear about, are things we're seeking psychological distance from. "Ours or theirs" immediately cues conspiracy, factionalism, internal threats. There's an enemy people make weapons to deal with, but, there are other threats closer to home. I don't think naming the specific alphabet soup brigade at this point serves the story.
I try to be very transparent and specific about what's going on in my book as much as I can, so that when I choose not to disclose a thing, the reader can infer that I'm doing it absolutely on purpose. And, I want to make sure that the ambiguity is relevant to the characters, so the reader doesn't think I'm just creating ambiguity by not coming out and saying a thing.
'The things we choose not to be clear about, are things we're seeking psychological distance from.' Yes yes yes, that's what I wanted readers to think/feel.
Your first paragraph here gives me a lot of confidence that there are readers that will get what I'm trying to do here, as you did.
Great point on being intentional with it. That could be worth an editing sweep for me as well. I don't want the book to start feeling like 'Lost' if you ever watched that? As much as I loved that series, there was always the sense they were being mysterious for the sake of it and not actually obscuring part of something whole, just out of sight.
@@KierenWestwoodWriting, oh, yeah, Lost is the devil. My book is seriously high-concept/weird fiction, and I wake up in cold sweats (not quite literally) worrying that folks are gonna think I'm pulling a Lost and all the intricate strangeness and wild happenings are never gonna resolve or be explained - but they ARE, I SWEAR, just hold out another hundred pages or so! I promise!!!
So, I'm faced with having to cue the reader to the fact that my story is actually going somewhere without giving it all away. How do we instill confidence in the reader while keeping all the juicy best parts for later on in the book?!?
Thank you for sharing.
Appreciate you watching!
Yes all of the elements of good writing should be a general guide not a formula. Thank you for all of your excellent videos that focus on art as well as craft.
Thank you! I do try to focus on the art part yeah but I hadn't really realised that until you said. I appreciate that!
Firstly another great video, and much respect for being candid about your feedback. You mentioned a few times that those readers 'only' read the first 5,000 words, and therefore didn't get a full grasp on your intro characters and story direction, and or theme. The hardest chapters to write in my book were the first two: the crucial/vital hook. Yes, most readers want to be placed in the shoes of either the protagonist or antagonist right from the start; whether directly or indirectly. Starting with loose characters with undefined direction or voice, (although with the genuine intention of creating mystery) can easily backfire, because instead of offering mystery, you're offering frustration via confusion. While considering this, we also need to take into account society today and its short attention span. My prologue is under 600 words, and my first chapter introducing the main character is under 1,200 words, and chapter two jumps straight in to the inciting incident. So to round up, your first 5,000 words 'must' have already clearly set up your voice, theme/genre, protagonist/antagonist and finally deliver an overall promise for pay-off at the end of your book. How you get to your pay-off is the whole ride for the reader, and which is where you insert all the mystery components. For what it's worth, I hope this helps in some way. Oh... and keep doing what you do on RUclips, great content. 🙂
Thanks so much, I appreciate that!
You've given me a fair bit to think about here for sure. It definitely bothers me that the first two 'parts' or 'chapters' aren't really about the main characters. Someone else has suggested amalgamating them into one chapter or one prologue, so that I could then start chapter two with a main character. That might make sense.
Your totally right though, I can see how mystery might become confusion and frustration, I want to avoid that for sure.
@@KierenWestwoodWriting Just an added thought/idea that could jump start your novel in terms of setting the tone and direction, allowing the reader to know where they are from the start could be: Begin with a short, punchy prologue - but in the form of a front page Newspaper Headline! Which, (instead of Juliette seeing it on the news) it is given to the reader directly. In the newspaper exclusive, you can easily elude to this new botched tech which had been leaked to the press, and add the date of the article as present or past. Then you can open chapter 1 with the events leading to the death of the ambassador and its possible connection with the botched tech. By doing this you will engage directly with the reader removing any potential ambiguity. It will also allow you to structure your pacing from the outset, letting the reader know the type and style of book they are reading. Finally don't title your prologue as Prologue, instead use THE TIMES EXCLUSIVE, (or some other made up tabloid name) and proceed with the article written in newspaper format. Hope this helps 🙂
I once had an agent pass on my book bc she said my mc didn't feel like a real person but that was the whole point at the beginning. He was in deep denial bc he blamed himself for his parents' deaths so he was basically a shell of a person. I even had him living in a town called Shellington to drive the point home lol
She required a synopsis with the query so I figured when she requested the full that she would've read it and understood what she was getting into. It took her months to get back to me and I could tell by her rejection she hadn't refreshed herself with the synopsis and only read the first handful of pages.
Hopefully I'll land an agent with my new book and that original book will be my second one 🤞
Sounds extremely frustrating. I've had similar frustrations with agents before.
I think a character who feels like a shell of a person is ripe for a great character arc. The journey of the story would then be them discovering who they really are, surely? I don't think that's a hard concept to grasp at all, makes perfect sense to me. It's a shame they didn't get that.
Querying is such a bewildering process at times, I wish you the best of luck with your new book!
@@KierenWestwoodWriting Thanks for the vote of confidence!
But… even a shell of a person in denial is a person. I don’t know if I can articulate my thought well but I hope you get what I mean. Like, being a shell of a person doesn’t mean you are no longer a person. You may get lost in thought a lot, dissociate etc but without you knowing you still are a person with body language and signs that indicate your mental state. So maybe the agent and you both have used the wrong words to describe the same thing. Perhaps the agent meant to say that you have interpreted “shell of a person” as a lack of person rather than a mental state where the person is not being themselves and are not fully present in the world. Do you get what I am trying to say?
Another great video full of helpful advice. Stick with your original approach to your opening chapter.
Thank you mate. Appreciate you. That was my inclination too.
Two or three main characters working and travelling together is reasonable.. There is a place for them depending on the story.
Personally, I like when the main character's name isn't given right away. After all, it isn't their name that's going to make me root for or against them, most of the time.
Maybe instead of "her" not answering, she could say that it doesn't matter. It's an answer without answering but lets you know they're not safe either way.
I like having a central protagonist, but as long as there is a thread that I can hold onto to help keep me orientated in the story, I'm good.
"What's past is prologue." For me, it depends on how closely tied to the main story it is. How many times is the event or person going to come up?
Now as I got to the end of the video, seems like you know what you're going to do. Great. Good luck with it.
Totally agree, it's just a label, not who they are. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
After the "'ours or theirs" line, the response could have been "makes no difference" or something to that effect to clue the reader in that specificity here may really not be important. Maybe?
I like prologues.
About the prologue thing with the guy dying. You suggested to add something, but why not making it shorter? A very sober description how he died.
That was harsh dude. I know you’re using it to inspire greatness though. Maybe the person who said the villains motivations weren’t clear is use to learning these things within the first 5,000 pages. Idk. It looks like I’ll have to do this in the future when I’m getting feedback and in this situation I’d review the first 5,000 words in the 2020 and up bestsellers and see if on average that all these things the readers wanted are usually given in the time range they are expecting. Because maybe you can fit it into the first 5,000 words, at least enough to attract at the reader. I do not know man. Id love to read it and give my thoughts on what I wanted to see or what I felt promised. Other than that all I can say is keep trucking like I know you’re doing.
It could be that yeah. I think I'm just going to give a little bit of it in that first chapter, a show of good faith that it will be addressed later. If that isn't enough for that type of reader, then the rest of the book really isn't for them. That's as far as I'm willing to go in terms of conceding though. I already feel like I'll be sacrificing some good mystery for plain speaking, but I can live with that if it holds readers better. Hopefully later down the line when it's in a readable condition, I'll be able to ask for beta readers who are generous enough with their time to read the thing!
@@KierenWestwoodWriting absolutely you nailed it with “show of good faith”. Brings to mind “promise of premise” handy phrase I learned from Derek Murphy who if you haven’t heard of, check out his 25 chapter outline cheat sheet. Crazy stuff. But yea dude, the pepper and spices of the meat of your villain can be a welcomed addition to the first serving
I personally have a tendency to follow Kishotenketsu story structure. Rather then the three act style. It’s character driven and builds up to moments with little to no premise. It’s just following characters and their life. In the end that’s why we read is to find out what happens to them.
I haven't heard of that, I'll look into it, thank you! I agree though, it's all about character and that's definitely something i've prioritised with my story.
Dashiell Hammett began his successful pulp fiction career without ever naming the gum shoe. He was just a portly Continental Op. There was no trench coat, no bottle of pretty good rye in his pocket. A guy like you doesn't let barbed comments make you think of the long drop off the short pier.
The cyber comments world can be ruthless. If they contain at least some element of tact, some softening around the edges I'll give them thoughtful consideration.
That's a really good way to look at it. Usually those comments with some underlying truth to them take a day or so to sink in before I realise they might be helpful, despite their presentation.
You're right though, I'm ultimately going to do what I want to do :D It'll never dissaude me all that much.
I think having a main character is the norm for a good reason as it anchors the story better, making it more digestable to the audience. In my own current in progress draft, I actually have two main characters, each with a parallel plot line, but recognizing this, I outlined the book so as to have a more clear lead. My lead has the bulk of the chapters while we jump to the second lead at 3 points with 3-4 chapters to progress his side of the story. The compacting of the second's actually gave the story good flow. For an ensemble cast I would just do one lead character that has roughly half the book pages with the rest sharing the other half sporadically and if possible have the POV change at the start rather than middle of a chapter. Also keep in mind a main character should have an arc while in the ensemble cast some of them will probably remain static, which make sense if they're old and established professional types. Also, I recognised the structure change like 10 chapters in and ade the right call to just start from scratch because starting with the second lead's POV made more sense for my story since the main lead's POV at the start generated more questions than it answered in a bad way. Good luck!
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, the direct experiences of other writers was exactly what I was looking for. I can definitely see how having a main character is often more engaging for readers, and I can imagine you can craft a more complex character arc that way. The characters who have considersble POV chapters in my story all have arcs of their own, though they differ in depth and complexity.
I would say there are really four main characters (defined by regularly occuring chapters written in their POV) but to me four seems too many for them to all be 'main'.
Perhaps what you've said there about leaning into one in particular might be what I need to do, if other readers find themselves wondering who is the protagonist. Thanks again.
@@KierenWestwoodWriting For sure
Getting feedback can be really tough. I entered a competition and they didn't like the style of my opening which was prose and poetry. Then I submitted it to an agency and they loved it. It's such a subjective industry. I also read my feedback then walk away for a little bit sometimes a day or two because it can be overwhelming as the writer to have it critiqued.
That's a great example of how subjective things can be. I feel like we're really almost on our own with assessing the quality of what we write. It can be hard to trust your own assessment though.
Rereading feedback on other people's work is a great approach. As a writer I would much rather wait for a couple of days and get considerate notes than hear back quickly with hastily written ones.
@@KierenWestwoodWriting Exactly. I felt really down after the competition gave me feedback but a few weeks later the literary agency got back to me about the exact same sample. Super subjective and I guess what I learned from that experience is to just write the story I want to write. Someone somewhere will like it as much as I do.
Totally with you on waiting for feedback. Nothing worse than feeling like the person speed read it and didn't actually take the time to understand your work and what you are trying to do. Very frustrating tbh.
Hi Kieren. Really love the channel. Can I ask, was the competition the CNP? I entered it too, and I think you've handled your feedback the right way. You've listened to what they've said, but at the same time, what kind of writers would we be if we gave in to every piece of feedback we received? Keep going.
By the way, your channel is much bigger than mine, but it'd be cool to do a collab some time.
Hey, it was indeed the CNP! Glad to know you feel the same on my approach. It's hard sometimes feeling like an expert and some a total amateur, but that's writing I guess.
Let's definitely do something together, I think I commented on your channel a while back, but you were taking a break then I think?
@@KierenWestwoodWriting @Kieren Westwood I remember! I rediscovered your channel a couple of weeks ago, and I found myself agreeing with so many of your points, and I love how simply you manage to explain complicated topics. It's really inspiring.
Thanks mate, I really appreciate that. It takes a lot of drafting to make any of my thoughts seem well-put together!
I'll send you an email and we can sort out that collab.
I think the general rule is that you do declare a person's name first then can refer to them with their pronouns, but know what you mean about starting with a name. It can sound a bit twee sometimes. There is always the option of starting it with the footage itself.
That's it, it is a bit twee. I've really struggled to nail down why I feel like that, but I do.
That's a great thought for editing though, I could simply rearrange a little and have the footage be the subject of that first line instead of the character! Thank you!
@@KierenWestwoodWriting It is! It's always worth having a play around with it. Good luck!
@@KierenWestwoodWritingHiding the characters name may need a specific reason for it. For example, maybe the character is hiding their name from the world they live in and thus they also hide it from the reader. I certainly won’t reveal my mc’s name in the first sentence of my novel. It begins with: “A girl of 23, stood over the corpse of a middle aged man she had just killed.” I am hiding her name for the reason I already mentioned. She is undercover in the book and her revealing her name is the inciting incident.
Would it be possible to splice the first two chapters together? Just a thought.
That's a really good idea, thank you. Someone else has noted that it could get a bit frustrating for readers if a main character doesn't appear within the first two chapters, and this fix would go some way to appeasing that. Lots to think about from this suggestion!
@@KierenWestwoodWriting I just started reading The Mountain in the Sea (a literary debut that came out last year) and the pov character the book starts with dies at the end of the first chapter. So, this kind of thing is still happening at least.
As a reader, I'm okay with Julie not answering and multiple characters of equal importance.
Thank you, that's encouraging to know. Definitely leaning towards keeping most stuff as I originally intended it.
I don't see any upside to calling the first chapter a prologue just because the central character of the chapter dies. The game is disrupting reader expectations. And the first thing seeing "prologue" at the top of the first chapter makes a reader expect is that whoever the prologue focuses on, they won't be the main character, and, thanks to George R. R. Martin, will prolly die.
On the other hand, if I read a book, and it starts with a terribly interesting character who dies at the end of the first chapter, and the second chapter picks up immediately with the consequences of that death, that would definitely constitute a hook for me. Just because a book is an ensemble piece, doesn't mean you gotta tell the reader that. The longer you can keep the reader guessing as to who the "main" character is the better.
You've got an interesting premise that begs a good question: what is it about a person that makes them choose the kind of isolation and probably obscurity of the kind of work each of your protagonists choose? Make the reasons diverse enough and intriguing enough and you've got a solid foundation for your plot.
Thanks for your thoughts, a lot to think about for sure. Re: your last paragraph, I've been really careful to give each character their own motivation that comes slowly into focus throughout the book, that was really one of my main reasons for writing it.
Interesting points on the prologue. I've been looking at the opening of this book through the lens of 'not losing the reader' or 'not putting the reader off' which it occurs to me now is a somehat negative outlook, perhaps it would serve me better to look at it how you have, with more positivity. Thank you!
@@KierenWestwoodWriting, this touches on what seems to me one of the central mysteries of the art form: how doI, as a writer, establish trust with the reader?
If I trust an author, I'll put up with A LOT of confusion, and lack of clarity and/or payoff. If I trust the author, all that stuff becomes exciting, as I await the awesome payoff to come.
If I don't trust the author, I prolly won't finish the first chapter. Or if I loose trust in them at any point, I'll prolly toss the book across the room and move on with my life.
But I can't easily define what makes an author seem trustworthy from the first page. But some do. And some win me over by the end of the fist chapter.
Mostly, I lose trust when what I'm reading feels unreal, or if I catch the author "cheating" by fudging the plot or the character in a way that doesn't pass the sniff test.
Trust seems to have something to do with feeling like the author knows what's essential to the story and that they're telling me that. Sentences "add up." Paragraphs feel "the right length" for what they're doing.
McCarthy and Chandler exemplify that first paragraph kind of trust. But I can't just "write like Chandler" and assume readers will trust me. I just have to believe I'm getting at what's essential to the story and that enough readers will agree.
I think you're not necessarily following the rules/checklist of 'a novel',, you definitely shouldn't worry about writing a prolonged if that's what the story requires. Also, I've never understood people's problem with them.
I don't want to give too much away, but have you read the first book in the Silo series?
I haven't no, should I?
I'm really hoping another editing sweep will reinforce that I've made the right decisions with this book. I think i'm trying to think my way through something I need to feel.
It's just that Silo does some intrresting/controversial things with main characters that might interest you in relation to this novel.
@@KierenWestwoodWriting it's definitely interesting to hear how it's hard to give feedback on only the first 5000 words. Sounds like you're getting close now...
Always looking for recommendations so I'll definitely search it out, thanks Laura :)
Opening with pronouns is great. I'm the same way. There's nothing I hate more than the character just give me their name right up front. I don't know about every chapter. But in the prologue of my novel, I call the main character 'a boy' and it takes a 3rd way through before you learn his name and the 2nd character's a name.
I like that approach. It's like you're giving the reader what's important about the character first and letting them make their judgements, rather than just sticking a label on them straight away that doesn't actually do much to let us know who they are.
@@KierenWestwoodWriting I hear that. And I think your approach is completely valid. Like you said, your willing to let go of some of your darling, but you don't have to kill them all.
I'd love to email you the first few chapters of my novel so you can see what you think?
@@KierenWestwoodWritingAnyways, thanks for the video man.
I think it is a good thing your works dont fit in any genre. Makes them probebly more unique. I agree with al your points. Dont need 1 centraal character.
Thanks, appreciate your thoughts :)
II would say do not use pronouns or names at all to open a chapter. Why not start with her position in the room? "Standing behind the bed, back against the wall while watching the television she realized she was biting her nail, hard. In fact, it was bleeding but she was transfixed by the unexpected timing of the broadcast.'
Something like that --- anything like that crrates some urgency of interest and brings the reader closer. As far as "ours" or "theirs" I agree with you do not change it. The only problem is there is a little bit of spy cliche but I like the mystery and spelling it out, I agree, would ruin it.
That’s a solid approach I think, especially for one POV books as there’s no confusion. I like to use a characters name at the opening sometimes because I switch between them and I don’t want readers to be guessing too much.
But in terms of creating urgency, that’s a really good idea I think ☺️
>>----------------> Good video.
Thanks for watching!
I do agree with starting chapters with pronouns, only because I've been frustrated by it before. Now, if the character is named shortly after, there's less confusion. But if it's for effect, and never naming the character, then I can appreciate that as a one-off. But it doesn't sound like your novel suffers from it excessively.
It also seems like your novel needs more than 5000 words for people to grasp, which is counter to most advice you hear "hook them within the first five pages." Not to say you can't hook someone quickly with an ensemble cast, but I can imagine fully grasping what you're trying to achieve might be tough in that word count.
My last novel had such a close POV of a person who wasn't in their right mental state: frightened, hungry, etc. Which made things a little difficult to grasp for certain readers, since I was describing things how she saw them, not exactly what they were, unless she could grasp that concept. So intentional but not for everyone. So I've taken it as a learning process to understand how much I want to risk losing readers versus telling the story how I want.
I think the most important thing is identifying what was intentional and what was unintentional, and coupling that with commonalities in the feedback, and it seems like that's what you've done.
Thanks for your thoughts, 'understand how much I want to risk losing readers versus telling the story how I want' is a perfect summation of how I feel at the moment.
Some of those style things need to go for sure, they aren't at all worth the risk of losing readers, but I think the larger way I've structured or presented the book, that feels like it is.
This is probably too black and white but I'm then thinking 'if they don't like the first 5000 words, they probably won't like the rest of it' and the obvious conclusion is then ' so why change things I love about my story for someone that won't like it all that much whatever I do?'
Yet I want as many people to like it as possible...(and around and around we go).
Thanks for the insight, it defnitely helped!
@@KierenWestwoodWriting happy to help! Yeah it took me a little while to accept that the things I like about fiction aren't mainstream, so I know my audience will inherently be more niche. Once I accepted that, critical feedback became a lot more manageable.
Looking forward to the book!
I feel like that's the case for me as well. Knowing is half the battle.
Thanks for the support :)
@@KierenWestwoodWriting always, man! Keep up the good work
I almost always skip prologues
Thanks for answering, quite a few readers say the same. Would the length of a prologue matter to you in terms of whether to skip or not, or would you be looking at other factors?
@@KierenWestwoodWriting The great Elmore Leonard: Avoid them. Why not start right in?
@DSR Cheap Seats As a big fan of Elmore Leonard's work, you make a great point!
I initially made a prologue but then I put the main character in it and now it's just chapter 1.