Before You Quit Graduate School...Watch This
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- Опубликовано: 4 авг 2024
- Whether you are at the beginning, in the middle, or even at the dissertation phase of your doctoral program; it is common to have doubts. After all, more than half of those who start a doctorate do not finish, including many who get all the way to the end, but don't persist to the completion on the dissertation. If you are struggling and having doubts, please consider watching this short video before you make any big decisions.
This further confirms my decision to take my master's. I hate my program and am fed up with my advisor. I am not a committed scholar. I do not like reading literature. I have no intentions on going into academia, and I am sick of doing research. I wanted a piece of paper and a title. It is not worth this mental degradation.
Same here. I'm naturally curious and love science, but not enough to pursue the formal, rigorous training necessary for a career. I'll stick with Joe Hanson and Neil deGrasse Tyson, thank you very much!
So many sucky advisors, so little time. They’re a disgrace.
I learned about many things in my PhD program but for the most part what I got out of the program was not the biomedical sciences PhD level research education that I was looking for. I learned mostly about the nature of people ( good and bad). I learned about toxic cultures, politics, inductrination, manipulation, exploitation, racisim, hate, scare tactics, fraud. I learned that for some reason PhDs and MD's within an institute don't get along and don't collaborate. I learned that in academia they are focused on grants, power and politics and not education of students in the field of study that the students joined the program to gain expertese in. I also learned that most students who join PhD programs are very trusting and get manipulated easily by evil faculty and PI's, because those students dont have the basic scientific mindset to question things, investigate things and analyze things to determine if what they are being told is true or not. I learned that although academia is mostly super toxic, there are still some good people sprinkled among the many evil people. I left academia and dropped out of my PhD because of all the overwhelming negative things that I experienced in the program, but the experience did open my eyes, and it was a learning experience.
This is the usual arguments used to recruit poor hopefuls into PhD programs. What you don't tell your audience is that there are very few opportunities to become that scholar if they complete their degrees as the majority of them will not become professors or work in research while in industry. Most will have to settle for something else besides the ideals of academia and the pursuit of knowledge. They will be learned individuals, but they will have little opportunities to use this learning in any capacity. At best most will be adjuncts but not researchers pushing the boundaries of knowledge, nor contributing in any meaningful capacity to knowledge. I feel your passion and the encouragement that you want to share, but it is not the right message for the majority of people who are watching this. People thinking about quitting should quit and not feel guilty or like failures. it will save them much grief in the future. Those people with the right mindset for what comes next and who will land the few academic jobs available, are not here watching this video. My apologies for the negativity, but a lot of the pep talk directed at PhD students, candidates, a potential applicants ends up hurting them in the long run.
Thank you for the time and care that you devoted to posting this reply. This gives me an idea for what might be a useful follow up video. With that said, the reality that you note is very much one important reason for this video, and it has been an honor to have private conversations with dozens of people who reach out after watching the video. I’ve met far too many doctoral students who treat it as as a direct path or guarantee to a tenured faculty position or job, and it is not. I contend that earning a terminal degree is a calling that is not necessarily related to landing a tenured faculty position. I’ve been in higher education for quite some time. I’ve published several books relate to my areas of scholarship, published a great deal in formal and informal settings, and done lots of speaking and consulting in my areas of scholarship. None of this required a tenured faculty position. In fact, I’ve never held a tenured faculty position or even a full-time faculty role without having additional administrative responsibilities alongside the teaching/research responsibilities. Most of my “scholarship” in the last fifteen years has been done between 7 PM and 2 AM. I get quite a few people who reach out privately after watching this video. Some did decide to quit because they realized that they were mainly seeing the doctoral program as a guaranteed path to a certain job. Some even struggled with bitterness, thinking that they were entitled to such a position if they successfully compete a doctorate. In that way, they saw my video as an affirmation of their thoughts about quitting. They didn’t see the video as a pep talk, but a wake-up call. Others were encouraged as they truly see their study as a form of preparation for a lifelong calling that would be embraced regardless of what full-time employment they might hold at some point (recognizing the extra work and difficulty of doing that alongside full-time employment elsewhere). Of course, the possibility for scholarship in some areas calls for access to resources and facilities that might not be available apart from a formal position at a University, think tank, or other industry lab/context. However, according to most recent data about doctoral students, that is a small percent of people in graduate school today.
I’m glad I didn’t succumb to the nihilism in this post before landing my TT faculty position.
After my phd, I was a postdoc for five years, before finally getting a job at a government research facility. It was a well compensated position, that was permanent, but every day I got in to the office and sighed, knowing I wanted to take the pay cut and be in academia.
For the last couple years of my postdoc, and every year of my subsequent employment, I applied for TT faculty jobs. In between each application season, I worked on improving my CV by publishing, giving talks, applying for awards/fellowships, and doing volunteer service work and running for elected positions in my field’s professional society. In my 7th grueling year of job applications, seven years straight of rejection-or worse, going on an interview and never even being told I was rejected to this day-with no hint that there was light at the end of the tunnel the whole time, I landed my R1 academic position. It was a dream come true.
It would not have happened if I had succumbed to this nihilism anywhere along that point. But I didn’t, and I didn’t stop improving my record and trying to address deficiencies in my cv. It ultimately paid off.
Will it pay off for everyone? No. I was doing this with eyes wide open the I might never succeed. I had built a whole parallel life that could occur just fine if I never succeeded along the way. My wife and kids were in a stable position. We were in a good area to raise kids, with lots of things to do, restaurants, culture. My wife had her own career (remote since before the pandemic) and collectively we were making a great income, a third of which we thankfully could invest in the stock market.
We could have followed that route all the way to the end and it would have been just fine. I just had this application thing that happened every Fall in the meantime.
That is my recommendation. If you treat life that way, you aren’t losing anything by pursuing academia. Set up a plan B that is a solid career, even if not the one of your dreams. Do not do a permanent postdoc, as postdocs are underpaid and their TT job prospects wither over time. If you are a full-time staff somewhere, you can still apply for jobs, and during the interview people will be impressed with your willingness to give up a significant portion of your income to return to academia. They will interpret that as passion, and the high income position as maturity, whereas a postdoc who was that many years long in the tooth would be interpreted as desperate and washed up, not to mention the low salary would mean their life was actually on hold. Let the career choice be something that will allow you to continue to build your cv. In STEM, federal employment is great for that, but in other fields I don’t know what it would be.
If you do this, you can still watch your kids grow up and prosper, make memories with your spouse, build up a 401k, do karate, do all the things with your life that you would want to do in the absence of an academic dream. You really don’t have to give up your academic dreams to access those things in the meantime. Life goes on regardless of how you spend it, and you haven’t lost anything even if you don’t ever land the TT position despite trying every year. Especially if you come to peace with the idea that you may never succeed, you can keep trying anyway because then success is a pleasant surprise but not a necessity.
That’s my advice, as someone who did it. I can thank the version of me who got rejected for the sixth straight year and still didn’t give up for my dream life now. I’m glad that person didn’t give up and succumb to nihilism, in the tough parts of graduate school, or while juggling two newborns and work, or when facing rejection after rejection on the academic job market. You just need a thick skin, tenacity, the mindset that rejection is okay, and a solid plan B that goes on in parallel to the search.
Thank you for posting this.I am about a third of the way through my dissertation and lately I have been about the reasons why I pursued this degree. Your video helped. It is about the journey. I have met some very inspiring people along the way and have learned more in the three years of my program than I have in 15 years or work. But it's not easy.
Needed to hear this 💜 I’m halfway through my doctorate and feel so depleted, but I do have a deeper why for this terminal degree and just lost track of it when jumping through all the hoops and dealing with menial tasks. Thank u for the gentle reminder. 🙏Back to the books tomorrow 📚
This is very helpful. Thank you! I needed to hear this now.
Thank you! This has provided me with real insight and clarity.
Well spoken and excellent point. If you love and/or believe in what your doing, i.e. your primary pursuit for the foreseeable future, then the obstacles become less daunting and more manageable. Reframing perspective in such a way actually does help. Thank you for the motivating talk.
Thank you, Bernard. I see you haven't made videos in a while, but I wanted you to know that this was what I needed to hear today. Having a calling to my doctoral program and lifelong learning is important to me. I want to help people with my knowledge and to be the best person I can be. Your video was very motivating. Hope we hear more from you!
Very helpful. Thank you for posting. 👍🏼
Great advice!
Im so glad i clicked on this video. I’m a 2nd year and have found myself questioning whether i should be pursuing my doctorate. I failed my qualifying exam and have found that it really rocked me. I’m feeling like perhaps I’m not cut out for this. But your video really reminded me to look at why i decided to even pursue it. Thank you for sharing your perspective!
don't quit graduate school, just don't even apply in the first place. better to earn income right out of undergraduate and save yourself a lot of extra time, money, pain, and loss of health.
I would not suggest graduate school as a means of increasing one’s wealth.
A master's is definitely worth it.
Don't even apply for college in the first place...😂.
I've had my fair share of rejection letters trying to get into graduate school, but watching this video gave me a different perspective. You're right. It's not about a piece of paper on the wall. It's about the journey. It's about looking back and being proud that I made it through today having learned something that makes me a better person.
Except that it’s not just about the journey. That’s for the rich folks, and the very few who really get departmental funding (forget assistantships, they never pay enough, certainly not if you have a child). Some places won’t even accept applications from prospective students who don’t have their own funding going in.
It’s also about a rigged system that keeps grad education closed to many. Try supporting yourself in grad school if you don’t have your own source of money. You might make it through, but many PhDs are saddled with lifelong debt afterwards, especially if you’re in the US. It’s little discussed, and many grad students discover it after committing to a program, but the economic burden of grad school is a nightmare for many. Why? Because the system is rigged enough so that only a small percentage of grads who aren’t already above middle class can possibly manage the loan repayment burden, even if they get a TT job.
Very good advice.
Thank you.
Ty!
The lack of CLEAR instructions when it comes to the COMPS and the dissertation is the CULPRIT.
The best piece of advice 👌
Thank You... Im Nigerian and I have passion for knowledge coz I live humanity.... Im on my thesis and after I bag my Ph.D. I know great things will be added to my life...
Thank You
Hello. I’m over here languishing in my candidacy. I no longer dream of academe, and for the last several years I’ve stayed with it just for the title promised… and what I promised myself I’d finish. While I think my research is important I find much more joy in direct engagement. And, while I think my presence in the classroom is deeply important but not worth the cost, especially with so few opportunities of stability. I am an older student; have lost dealt with parental loss during my program, and ultimately I am very tired. I grieve the lost dream. I have no idea how to tap into what I need to get this done.
Here is the main reason I might quit the PhD: Researches are mostly fake, they depend on the writing style, organization of structure, and using other papers in the process. The real knowledge never come from reading papers or from reading books... at least for the scientific community, real knowledge only exists in the field where you can experience the real world and build something that really adds a value into a certain industry. I started my PhD to learn and get to apply something that actually interests me and motivates me, but when faced by the academic staff, I realized that there main job is to read, write and teach, but never to do, or to use. So I don't want to be involved in this cycle of nonsense, this pile of fake mountain of papers where no one actually read but other scholars, and why you ask? it's to generate more papers. So what is the way out in this case? Maybe I should meet a good researcher to change my view of this.
A fair critique, especially of mindless cycles of publication and criterion without any real interest in advancing knowledge. There are certainly some who approach their scholarship with the motto that, “a scholar’s work must have relevance.” That is, of course, the well-known Wisconsin Idea” and something promoted by long gone James Conant (chemist and former president of Harvard). It shaped me and led me to embrace mor applied forms of scholarship. And yet, there is also the compelling perspective of those like Flexner put wonderful in his wonderful little text, The Usefulness of Useless Knowledge.
“To the Electron. May it never be of any use to anybody!” - J. J. Thomson
Thank you :)
Thank you for the video, I`m in the middle of my PhD journey, and ever cross in my mind to quit. But this video motivate me, I think my goal is more than just one piece of paper :-)
i quit because of my phd supervisor
Your supervisor quit you...😀
Me too! I have no doubt that I'm capable of earning my PhD, but I am sick of the hell that my advisor puts me through.
Yes. And the competition inside academia in general. I'm sick of the power dynamic, I just wanted to do research
Thank you so much. I think I needed to hear this... after finishing my Master's two years ago, I've been thinking about pursuing a PhD but I'm having a few doubts because I'm kind of terrified of the workload especially since the program is in a foreign country (which I haven't been to)... But I'll still try to apply I guess :)
Same. I am in the process of applying for PhD, but I am already scared that I might not be able to handle that work. Lol
@@karenzhang1020 i hope we get through it :)
@@thetiffingpoints We will :)
Thank you for this video. I am a pastor in the process of trying to decide to pursue a phd or Dmin and this video is at the heart of either decision. While I am really struggling to figure out which one, this video is the reminder that either one should be for something higher than the title. It’s so much more.
Thank you for the comment. I certainly contend that the why is the most important foundation. I have had that conversation about DMin vs PhD with many friends and colleagues over the years. Not to take anything away from a DMin which can be a wonderful applied terminal degree. At the same time, I will say that a PhD or EdD would open more doors should you aspire to serve in some universities.
@@BernardBull agreed. This was one of the most difficult decisions of my educational journey. My heart wants to pursue a phd. I love the research side of things and deep diving into the text and into theology. However, due to my limitations of not being able to be on a campus, financial concerns, etc… It looks like a DMin is going to be my best option. A DMin will also give me the opportunity to teach at a junior college or equivalent. Hurts my heart but practicality wins out.
I got my PhD but in a wrong field. I did not take enough time to develop my interests.
❤❤❤
When its time to go its time to go. If it gets too toxic its best to get out. If its wasting your time and dragging you further away from your goals then get out of that program.
Somehow thinking that this is just the beginning does not motivate me to complete my program--even though it is true.
I am done with all experiments, papers, only left with the diassertation phase with bad mental health and this video is my last chance for not dropping out I think
Is a DIY doctoral program possible? I have topics I want to research and write about but I don't think I can commit a few years of being in a program full time.
That is absolutely possible. If one is more interested in the learning and does not have need for the formal degree or credentials, then I’m convinced that it is entirely possible to replicate a collection of learning experiences, communities, research projects, and the like that have an equal or higher standard and challenge than almost any formal doctoral program; at least in many disciplines. The exception might be in areas of study were access to certain equipment and information might be limited. What area of study interests you?
@@BernardBull I'm interested in how education systems might evaluate and assess self-determined or self-directed learning. What are meaningful measures that can indicate competence or mastery, etc.?
What a great area of focus! Yes, you can most certainly self-design a rich and robust personal learning journey around those topics.
Like a phd program with no advisor...😂. Advisors are good though...like they can tell you how stupid your idea is and no one is gonna publish it.lol
EdD program
"nurturing" life-long scholars - it would have been true if not the fact that there are so many really dumb people in academia, including professors. They excel only in one thing, but cannot think out of the box. They sort of have critical-thinking, but they cannot apply it in other fields, like on a daily basis, in real life. They tend to have herd-thinking, as a lot of times they do things because it is just done this way or because they've learned to do it this way, but they forget to ask "why?". It is a fault conception that to become a scientist you have to have really good analytic skills. In reality a lot of scholar just copy-cat others. There's so much plagiarism in academia. Many people in academia just continue to do what they do by a physical phenomena called inertia. The nowadays "publish or perish" ideology DOES NOT AT ALL provide a healthy and "nourishing" (as you mention here) conditions to raise good scholars.
If we quit phD after completing the coursework, will we be awarded with the master’s or Mphil degree ?
And do we get the work permit on the basis of mphil degree?
In my opinion, PhD's should only be available on scientific subjects and not on subjective subjects like literature, history, sociology, etc. I am impressed by someone who has a PhD on, say, math or physics but not at all impressed by a PhD on medieval Spanish poetry or French literature, e.g.
😂😂😂...because everyone can pass Spanish peotry class? C'mmon, sociology is a social science, yeah?😀 You know, there are many types of science...hahaha.
Btw...economics uses physics and maths tools...not scientific enough? Haha. I mean, optimal control is optimal control, whether in physics, mathematics, economics or engineering...it does not matter whether the targeted agents are human beings, robots and machines or particles.
Surely, you don't have a PhD (or have processed this critically enough) if you believe that math and science are not subjective.
I don't get why there should be a time limit to pursue something. The very fact that we chose to be a scholar is because we are serious about it. I don't see any rationale behind institutionalising research and rewarding it. Fact is, there isn't necessarily a relevance to a study. Maybe the study will find its relevance in coming 1000 years or maybe it will end up somewhere and might even seem foolish. Thing is, research shouldn't be confined by any industry and that includes publishing houses as well.
Research in India, especially in social 'sciences' (partly it is scientific), is extremely politically motivated. And since it is politically motivated especially by left wingers, most of it is more an appeasement to powerful parties and institutions rather than genuine research.
The whole point of research is to get a degree and get a job and hence the time limit.
Time limits are interesting in education. One argument for them is that the degree is supposed to be evidence that you have mastered a certain body of knowledge and if too much time passes, they can’t validate that you retained the knowledge from earlier in the program. If that were true, then it would seem that degrees would have expiration dates or require recertification over time. To the best of my knowledge, no University does that, although some professions do something similar.
@@BernardBullisn’t it just a matter of resources? Graduate students cost their PI or the institute perhaps $80-100k/yr, at least in programs I have been affiliated with. Postdocs cost approximately the same, though more of that goes to salary rather than tuition in their case. At some point, students need to cycle out simply because the resources were never meant to support them indefinitely. Of course, it’s also for their benefit, since they go on to higher salaries, too long of a stint in graduate school or postdoc hurts their job prospects, and their life gets put on hold while they’re in school. I can only speak for my field, Chemistry. I imagine there are others where the norms and standards are different.