I live in a state with a death with dignity law. My close friend had a terminal progressive brain/neurological disorder that would render her both mentally and physically incapable of taking care of herself. The disease would become more painful as it progressed and she was already in terrible pain. Even with that scenario, she was NOT able to find 2 doctors that would sign the paperwork for euthanasia. In fact, she couldn’t find any state that would allow her physician assisted suicide. She flew to Switzerland to access the system there which allowed her to make that decision for herself. Before she left she wrote me a 5 page letter explaining her choice and sharing her thoughts with me. I cannot blame her for her choice. I wish the laws were a bit more flexible so she wouldn’t have to take that step without a friend or family member to be with her at the end of her life.
So only people with whom passport and money can die with dignity just like if abortion is illegal, only wealthy people that can travel will be able to have them.
There are other ways. You can’t be force fed, nor forced to take your meds nor to drink water. You can possibly find a doc to Euthenize you but the meds for it are not covered by Medicare and are very expensive. That’s why you find elders jumping off cliffs and just try to find a car rental agency that will rent to elders. We have an odd attitude about death in this country. Yes, we’ll euthenize old Toby our beloved Golden Shepherd to put him out of his misery but no way will we support Mom or dad if they want to escape their misery.
I think most doctors are opposed to assisted suicide. It seems counter intuitive to me because one would think that the patient's interests should come first, within reason. Someone who has a terminal illness that cause them severe pain should be allowed to choose what they think is best for them. Maybe it's because of the Hippocratic Oath they take or their own personal religious beliefs. It could be also that they're afraid of being sued by family members.
The problem with legalizing euthanasia, without free medical care, is that even for a terminally ill patients, there is the possibility is that they are doing it not because the reached the end of the road, but they want to spare their family the healthcare cost of keeping them alive.
You point utterly fails to apply in societies where the family does not financially suffer from end-of-life care. Which are most western nations, public health insurance takes care of it.
@@mikec8027 Its not fully irrelevant though. Even in the nations where family does not have to shoulder all or at least some part of the weight of their elders care, one can still assume inheritance deliberations. Or costs not directly related to healthcare like housing and personal consumption. It is fair to assume there can be situations where an elder person might feel pressure to go for euthanasia even if they are not fully on board. But I say the souvereignity right over ones own life is more important than protection from theoretical pressures. Best thing that can be done is reducing motive for those pressures, i.e. socializing the burdens for family. So they dont have added motive to pressure somebody.
@@mischevious Which nation, which system are you talking of? Or are you speaking in general as in "public healthcare free at the point of service does also have to be paid for somehow" ? That meme is a well kown truism and has been used for decades. Of course no doctor, nurse or pharmaceuticalmanufacturer works for free. But was and still is rather silly. Since socialized healthcare systems have been shown over and over to archieve better health and care outcomes, producing lower management overheadcosts than private ones. Even in mixed systems like germany, where both concepts are allowed in parallel, the private ones take more money in and deliver worse consumer outcomes once levelized. Which should be obvious since the profit-driven middleman is missing in public systems.
I'm from Belgium and this case was a big story because of the reason of her choice for euthenasia, the terror attacks. She lost a lot of her friends (they were going on a senior year trip to Italy) and had severe anxiety attacks, depressions and paranoia. To legally get euthanasia in Belgium you must get the green light of not only two specialists (in this case psychologists) and there decisions must be OK'ed by a board, who's members are all specialist in the field (proffessors, docters, social workers, etc.). The decisions isn't taking willy nilly and only as a last resort. When she finally got the green light and a date, she took the time to say goodbye to all her loved ones and take a holiday to Italy as to finally end that chapter. It was sheduled 2 days before the anniversary of the terror attacks which was important for her as she didn't wanted to relive it again. Unfortunatly some anonymous complaint made that impossible as authorities had to revisite the case and make sure that everything was done legally and every other option was exhausted before the euthanasia could be done. This took 6 months, time which became hell for her. Instead of a sereen end with dignity and peace, it became a drawn-out torture of uncertainty which thankfully ended in a good way for her. All because of some douche who cannot accept that someone wants to end her life and that a society doesn't want to let her do it in a bad way.
After your description it looks even more horrific than without it. Psychiatrists, fucking board of some bureaucrats said to the person they supposed to help "we cant do anything, so go kill yourself, but say bye to your mom first", quite literally.
It didn't end in a good way. If she wanted to commit suicide for real, she could easily do it with an enormous dose of opiates, driving out in the woods, and taking them all away from other people. There is no reason to make this process legal. When euthanasia is necessary, people should break the law against it.
@@Williamtolduso The real kicker is that I sent her to hell because she committed a sin that I cannot forgive. And I will give a bonus point for the person that made the complaint because that person enforced my bible rules.
Forcing people to live a life they hate that they are powerless to change is torture, full stop. No one should have the right to force you to live if every day is going to be a nightmare experience for you.
@@danaaronmusic when someone is living in pain, and you tell them "you're not allowed to die", you are telling them "you need to continue living agony". There comes a point where those are the only two options in some cases and taking away one of them is exactly equivalent to forcing the choice of the other.
@@LordMajicus Again, no one said anything about forcing you to live or not allowing you to die. You have every right to end your life if that is your choice. The matter in question here is whether a physician has the right to euthanize you.
This is hard. As someone who's suffered from a number of psychological issues, and did attempt self termination in the past, it's kind of difficult for me to either condemn or condone this. I've had good things happen to me since that time that I would've missed out on. I'm not 'cured', I still have issues, but I'm much better at coping with them, avoiding triggers, and dealing with the bad times. On the one hand, It's hard for me to accept that a 23 year old couldn't take one more step forward to see if they could find just a tiny sliver of light at the end of the tunnel. What if? Just one more minute, one more hour, one more day...maybe things can be different. On the other hand, it's cruel to try to force someone to carry on while enduring that kind of suffering. If I would've had to deal with something like that, I seriously doubt I'd still be here.
This is Belgium, my guess is they had an extensive process to try and find a solution, but they never did. After all it all started in 2016. Their are always some people who can't recover from something. We only need to have 1 person in history to give a law a reason to exist I guess. I hope you are able to keep improving your situation.
We just need a massive investment in mental health. The problem is a lot economic systems in our world don't care for mental health except for the loss of a worker. There is no profit in it.
@@kellen5545 this is a US problem, if you want to look at it purely from a capitalism sense not a moral one. Also an other US problem is just focused to much on the short term. The benefit to society is that the worker will get back to work and the return on investment is compounded over the years like compound interest.
Right but we also need to reduce the reasons for mental health problems. There is a study that says that a person can lose up to 15 IQ points if they can't afford to pay even basic bills. We shouldn't have so many people depressed. Clearly we are doing something wrong in our societies. Look at Global warming, and the list goes on and on. We need to address fundamental issues or we will never be able to even afford or administer that much care in total. It's high time we treat the underlying condition(s) and not just put band-aids on a broken system.
@@autohmae It seems mental health in Belgium isn't free, nor covered by the government health care in any way. 70 Euro seems to be where consultations start and clearly going broke from trying to get better isn't going to help your stress or life. She might not have had full access to help as they only pay for the drugs not the possibly even more important therapy.
As a physically and mentally disabled and mentally ill person and has attempted suicide thrice I feel like doctors especially in the psychology field, these doctors do not know enough about what it’s like to actually live through these things everyday and do not listen to or believe their patients properly compared to doctors that do experience these things. It took me switching doctors twice for a doctor to decide to take my chronic physical and mental pain seriously and one I knew my entire life did not care. I think the place medicine and societal empathy is at now is not ready for something as misunderstood to make a decision like this yet. The amount of time it takes for a doctor to not only believe you are in fact experiencing something for them to think you’re not trying to get drugs for free on top of “the average time to get something diagnosed 7 years” is is enough alone for me to believe we just aren’t ready on a systemwide euthanasia option for mental illnesses. Also it is not uncommon for illnesses aren’t realized to be misidentified, and subsequently mistreated, until the autopsy. While we are far along medically from our past, we are not as far along as we like to believe we are
I think what Kyle is getting at is that depression may cause someone to want to end their own life, but that feeling may eventually be defeated (and frequently is) through treatment rather than suicide, and obviously we should make sure that people have been given every treatment to try defeating depression through treatment before offering euthanasia as an option.
Yeah that's what I'm most curious about: is suicidal ideation a symptom OF severe depression, or is it more of a rational, lucid desire BASED on how awful it is to live with severe depression? Depressed/traumatized people who are like "Why do I keep having thoughts and desires to kill myself?? It doesn't make sense!" probably should be targeted with treatment, because the ideation is clearly a delusional symptom of the illness. But those who are like "I'm constantly sad, numb, stuck in negative thoughts, have no joy or interest or passion or motivation or hope anymore, and none of the treatments have helped. I'd rather die than keep living like this for the rest of my days" -- those people should be given this freedom to choose death.
@@Dwafiz Interesting view, but I don't see the point. Why not just unilaterally give everyone the right to euthanasia instead of barring them based on hard-to-measure or abitrary logic? I don't think, given the chance, that most would go through with it as they would reconsider and postpone their decision.
Sure. You just have to be careful that you don't make the hoops too much to jump through. Like republicans with abortion, at a certain point you're not actually trying to help by making a woman sit down with a doctor and have the doctor try to talk her out of abortion. You're just trying to limit abortions because you don't like abortions, not because you're actually trying to do what is best for someone. Really, our society needs to address the things that cause people to want to kill themselves. The capitalist rat race in this country is very depressing. 90% of the population is not really allowed to have any meaning to their lives aside from supporting the system of wealth so that a few people can live in extravagance. If we're willing to provide for someone's basic needs such as food, shelter, and medical care, after we've been willing to go that far to support them, then I think we can have a conversation about how they "owe" us the responsibility to consider options other than suicide. But as long as we've got this "you're on your own" mentality about everything, nobody owes us anything. If we don't provide anything, they don't owe us anything, and that includes their life. Their life should be theirs to do with as they please. They don't even "owe" us the time to listen to us trying to talk them into living until we're willing to provide them with free mental health counselling. I was hospitalized for depression once, and afterwards I went and got a copy of my records from the hospital. I remember that the doctor wrote in my file that the hospitalization would only make my depression worse, since the medical bill was only going to add to my problems and make my situation more dire and depressing. That didn't stop them from charging me $18,000 dollars for my stay, though.
Lol. "Given" treatment like psych treatment is free and not a business to make money. First society has to actually value human life and human dignity more than the almighty dollar. Never gonna happen.
I agree but unfortunately treatment is gatekept. I have friends who have endured so much pain because they cannot afford a doctor who cares to treat them properly. I can afford to pay for slightly better treatment but it’s only marginally better at the cost of hundreds of dollars every two months. I don’t blame anyone who is suffering greater than me who, at this present lack of good mental health and access to it, would rather die.
The best times of my life were between '04 and '05. Now that they're gone and the people I looked up to aren't in my life anymore, I can't find a reason to continue. It's hard, man.
It will discourage people from killing themselves outside of a medical setting and will get people to be more open about when they are suicidal, and for those who can't be helped they deserve to make that choice to exist for themselves
Nope society shouldn't send signals to a suicidal person it's ok to kill themselves, it'll lessen the gravity of doing so. If you allow for something legally or socially, people are gonna do it more, and if something's normalized people are gonna care less about it. That's just goes for human behavior in general. Also if you have people who's job is to assist suicide, you've created an incentive sturcture for it to keep happening and a class of people where assiting suicide will just be another day at the office.
The issue is what it it becomes a systematic answer to life struggles, and assisted suicide makes suicides in general go through the roof. I guess we will see based on what the stats say out of places like Switzerland
@@maisa5943 Suicide rates in Switzerland are considerably lower than they are in the US. And assisted suicide has been legal there for long enough we don't need to wait for stats to gauge the effects.
@@shelleycline3542 I'm sorry, I thought it was pretty obvious that I wasn't including the age group that we've collectively decided isn't capable of making life-changing decisions.
Here in the Netherlands euthenasia has been legal for a few decades now but can be a difficult and lengthy procedure, not something that can be decided on a whim. It's about the same in Belgium. Basic rule is that there has to be needless physical or mental suffering without any prospect of possible improvement in the future. Several doctors will get involved, the family is consulted, forms have to be filled out, etc. Basically you are preventing people from needless suffering untill they die of old age, which would be very cruel. Last year 7,666 euthenasia requests were granted, on a total population of over 17 million that is about 0.04%. If your government provides good healthcare and takes good care of it's citizens there is no need to be afraid that it will become a high percentage.
If someone doesn't wanna be here it's their choice not to be here anymore. It feels completely wrong to me to try to keep someone here who thinks life is basically hell.
Are you one of those people who would not talk a person off a ledge but just keep walking right on by? There is nothing authoritarian in trying to prevent damaged individuals from hurting themselves, in fact as a society we owe it to these people. Krystal was saying “maybe she should have been kept alive if she has kids.” So a woman’s life is more valuable when she’s a mother? And we are to just place our trust in doctors to make these kinds of moral calculations? There are many problems with this line of thinking. It’s not as clear cut as many pretend and I think Kyle’s take here shows maturity
@@jabrokneetoeknee6448 Never said I wouldn't try to talk somebody out of it, just that it shouldn't be illegal. As in law. Sure if your friend's depressed you should try to make them feel better. And yeah if somebody has kids it obviously has a deeper dimension..... although at the same time forcing a suicidally depressed parent to raise kids probably wouldn't result in a particularly good outcome either.
@@darkpark6531 But talking someone down from a ledge would be “trying to keep someone here who thinks their life is hell.” And I don’t see anything wrong with that. And the law in question is “physician assisted,” which involves an outside party, a doctor, in the subject’s death… not just the subject themself. So an even more appropriate analogy would be a depressed person holding a needle full of fentanyl asking for your assistance. I think in many cases, it OUGHT to be illegal to “help” a mentally distressed person in this way. It’s not correct to frame this issue as purely one of personal liberty… there’s a lot of other ethical considerations here. That’s all I’m saying
@@jabrokneetoeknee6448 Obviously I wasn't referring to 'talking someone down from a ledge'. I'm talking about physician-assisted suicide. The key thing to diagnose with a suicidal person is whether they're experiencing ideation or intent. Most of the time it's ideation and any psychiatrist worth their salt will be able to see that.
I asked for physician assisted suicide (for severe chronic pain that they refused to treat), and was denied because my condition was not fatal on its own (nevermind that I had to decide to not kill myself each and every day, then, as I had had to every every single day for 3 or so years prior to that... before I finally asked for my own death). The doctor and her assistant searched for weeks for a place that would kill me (all the white refusing to adequately medicate my severe chronic pain, even with a treatment recommendation for methadone by their own medical group's pain experts). Finally, I was told that I could not get the assistance I wanted unless my condition was fatal on its own. She was the 20th doctor in a row, then, during the 'opioid epidemic', to refuse me adequate medication to allow me to not want to die. This despite decades of exemplary history as a pain management patient, and despite a treatment recommendation from pain experts that no one would pay attention to or administer. Doctors are cowardly pieces of shit to refuse treatment like that - to torture a person into asking for their own death! - just to cover their own asses.
The Netherlands is the first country that legalized Euthanasia - we also can have psychological (depending on the definition) we had people with dementia (brain and psychology) that had Euthanasia. It is not that easy - you can't do it willy-nilly. Doctors often get legally viewed. Plenty of doctors even if the papers are signed correctly by the persons wanting it - hesitate. There are guidelines they have to follow! Euthanasia for psychological reasons is not easy: there are guidelines. She had medication, she had multiple suicide attempts. It was her choice. What if these Americans did it? Less overpopulation. They already attempt them but fail. You should learn more - there are so many stories of people who attempted suicides and fail. And their lives are worse off after failing. Attempting it over and over. I think this is a good thing. The Netherlands and Weed - we could not legalize it - we tolerated it - because of national pressures. Drug tourism, etc. But also, here - we are ahead compared to USA - progressively speaking. Same sex marriage The Netherland was the first modern nation that legalized it.
My father suffered for seven years with Alzheimer's , there is no way in hel l he would have wanted him or us to go through that, and said things like "going for a looking swim" but the disease takes that power of choice away from him. I have supported assisted dying ever since.
@@aandreya " Deadwish occures, when the wish of knowing what will happen next, disappears. " You can't even spell, let alone make a valid claim supported by empirical data. Stop making things up
@@aandreya So when does this Deadwish start for me ? And the only Deadwish I know is a 2018 American vigilante action thriller. I can't seem to find deadwish anywhere. Can you link a citation ? thanks.
@@sharper68 Furthermore ... People in our society that are meant to evaluate people to avoid clear "mistakes" caused by definitive & simple side effects from some other issue ... have indeed evaluated her so what else is there left to say ...
And your point is? For some people that would be 17 years too many. Better to let them check out early than to live for decades waiting to die, being forces to endure their suffering against their will
@@IaMaPh1991 by default, we'll all die in the end Some die young, some day late (old age) Others die all of a sudden without warning In this case, she wanted to die early Though she has potential to do more in her life, but sadly chose opposite In a religious perspective, she shouldn't have died early and strive to live longer through prayer then finding her purpose in life through soul/career searching Where she'll be useful to society It's sad she chose that path, wishing that tragic event never occured to her but it happened unfortunately All we can do is to prevent these events like terror acts to occur so it won't create domino effects down to a personal level
@@jmvpams1380 Many people don’t feel they have a purpose and life is almost entirely suffering without end. Medication, prayer, therapy don’t always help.
As someone who lives with depression I’m completely with Krystal. I’m “lucky” that my depression has not been worse than passive suicidal ideation. I know people who live every day suffering and sometimes the way to empower yourself is to take control and end it. I can’t stand paternalism for depressed folks.
For me being able to have power over your own live is the most fundamental freedom. If you cannot choose to tap out, what can you choose? I dont want to imprison people in their own bodies.
How far does that go? If you caught a friend of yours trying to commit, would you try to save them? There is a sliding scale from never ever, all the way to willy nilly. Where would you draw a line, or where are the borders of your grey areas if you aren't sure. I'm curious since I'm quite against allowing people to consent to taking their own life. I would make exceptions for late stage terminal illness, or the very old and immobile. Depression is a disease, but it is not a terminal one. Most people recover from it. It is in fact a mental illness, and mental illnesses by their definition cloud a person's judgement or perceptions when they are suffering from them. I think it is more accurate to define a physically healthy person who wants to end their own life as 'not of sound mind' and therefore that would remove their right to do so. You probably disagree given your comment, hence I'm asking what you think.
@@toggerz7487 See my separate comment below about abortion. "to define a physically healthy person who wants to end their own life as 'not of sound mind' and therefore that would remove their right to do so." But that's only to beg the question by medicalizing what may be a perfectly reasonable distaste for life. An obviously sane, lucid person can find that life is bleak and not worth living. If anything, given the hideousness of so many lives, the problem can be turned inside out: Why is it that great multitudes don't end their lives every day? Of course the answer isn't far to seek. The reason people endure unrelentingly bleak lives is that their survival instinct (ie fear) overrides the unpleasantness of their existence. But what if there are some people in whom that instinctual fear happens to be weak, just as there are some who have weak sexual instincts, or a weak/nonexistent inclination to tribalism? Are they to be regarded as mentally incompetent as a matter of definitional fiat? To make things concrete, consider 3 cases chronicled in youtube documentaries about euthanasia in Belgium. All were granted the right to a peaceful and dignified death: 1) A healthy 80-yr-old woman who lives in a nursing home finds that she is desolate because her daughter, the only person whom she loved, has been killed in a car crash. She is the picture of mental stability. She just doesn't like being alive anymore. 2)An otherwise healthy middle-aged guy who dearly loves his wife and kids, and who used to love managing his farm until his medical condition forced him to give it up, has recurring headaches so ferocious that he wants to end his life if medical treatment continues to be unavailing. The pain caused by these headaches throws him into convulsions of agony. He has been under specialist care for an extended period and nothing has helped. He's so attached to life that he wants to try experimental surgery. If it doesn't work, he says he'll probably opt for the painless death the state has offered him. 3)A woman in her 20s has had unbearable, recurring, intractable depression for many years. Contrary to what you write, her judgement is anything but clouded, as her condition is episodic. Even in her non-depressed intervals, she feels that the mental suffering of her episodes is so intense that it makes her life not worth living. She has been examined by a board of psychiatrists and psychologists who've concluded that she's suffered greatly for years despite having tried every treatment modern medicine has to offer. Her mother, who appears to be caring and devoted, says through her tears that, although broken-hearted, she supports her daughter's decision. In a way, by citing these actual cases of grievous suffering, I may have conceded too much to the opposition. My view is that, except in very rare, easily detectable cases of obviously temporary depression, a person has an inviolable right to decide what happens to his body provided there's no harm to others. So I'll make up a fourth example. A guy has a dreary life. He's not hungry. He has no terrible afflictions. But like so many millions, he intensely dislikes his job and doesn't have any realistic prospects of finding one that will interest him. In fact, he dislikes the idea of working for a living, since for him, all work is drudgery. He doesn't care much for his wife or kids etc etc The point is that he's not suffering horrendously. It's only that for years, he's been mired in an what Stevens called 'the malady of the quotidien'. The utter drabness of his existence disgusts him. That's all. No melodrama. No ghastly ailments. Just a guy who doesn't like being alive. Now, why is it, exactly, that the state can remove his most fundamental right -- the right to control his own destiny by opting to end an existence he finds repugnant? A crucial point to keep in mind, in this and every other case, is that this guy never consented to his own birth. He was thrust into life be 2 other people without having any say in the matter. Why is it, then, that he must continue to endure an undesired life which others' chose to impose on him?
@@toggerz7487 If a friend of mine was making that decision, I would most likely try to get them help and persuade them to not do it, but ultimately it is their decision.
Making it legal is rediculously stupid. It seems like someone who wants to do something wrong but wants others to approve of it so he doesn't feel guilty.
No that's literally pro-life propaganda. The right to die is a human right and some people want to end their suffering. Deal with it and stop being a regressive. Thanks!
dude… this is so heavy. makes me want to cry. God bless her soul. idk if im in favor of doctor assisted death, even though ive been in places mentally before where it sounded not half bad.
This is a particularly hard concept to process for us empathetic individuals. I understand why, definitely...but you really want someone to live and enjoy their one precious life.
I have Chornic pain from my TMJ disease. I have 7 brothers and sisters and they all hate me. They think I'm pretending or I should just get over it and live a normal life. My dad hates me because I'm weak and I ask for help. All i have is my mother. When she passes I am going to move to one of these countries so I can end my life with dignity instead what I fear will be a horrific event.
Me too and I have spinal stenosis and I have some sort of autoimmune thing and ringing tinitus but dude I can get stoned and still have fun at home even if I can't go out much anymore.
@@thealternative9580 I was able to find a strain that works with my disease instead of making it work like 99% of strains do. My disease is invisible even though it affects almost every bit of my life. I'm so glad cannabis helps you my man. It truly is a gift from the gods.
There's a debate on this? This should only be reserved for terminally ill people. A 23 year old being euthanized for depression makes my skin crawl. The very essence of depression is that you feel like there is no reason to live anymore. Depressed people are not in a state of mind that is conducive to sound decision making. The fact that someone would "assist" in such a decision, and potentially benefit from it monetarily, is extremely insidious.
emotional pay can be just as damaging and exhausting as physical pain. if you've tried to get help, and nothing is working, would you really want to live the rest of your life permanently depressed?
What upsets me most about this story is that psychedelics would likely have helped this girl immensely. Studies show psychedelics administered in a controlled clinical setting are very effective in helping patients process traumatic events. But I doubt such an option was even presented to her because psychedelics aren't legal in Belgium. When society says it would rather put you to death than bend the rules slightly to potentially save you, that most definitely is "the wrong message".
Canada just passed something allowing assisted suicide for personality disorders like BPD. As someone with BPD I completely support it and I want it for myself. I completely agree with Krystal that it should only be if someone doesn't have kids. The only time suicide is selfish is if you are a parent.
This literally isn’t even a debate. If someone doesn’t want to be here then you don’t have the right to tell them they HAVE to be… think about how ridiculous that is… if someone wants to commit suicide then that’s their choice. PERIOD. If you think otherwise than you’re no better than the people forcing women to have babies
It doesn’t matter the reason, if a person truly doesn’t want to live it’s there choice. My only criteria is age. You can’t stop someone from killing themself.
The reason I support this is because when people take their lives themselves it can be very traumatizing and painful for the individual and those around them. I do think they should exhaust every method of trying to help the person including trying to help them make meaningful romantic and non-romantic relationships and not just load em up with pills. In Krystal's example would she prefer if the kids find mommy passed away in some gruesome way? Or even if they OD with pills or something they still have to discover them. I am very depressed, but for some reason I haven't considered suicide in a very long time. One day I just realized that if I've endured all this mental anguish why would I end my life at the worst point? I'd rather have hope that one day it'll turn around and enduring that pain will have been worth something. I also wonder if this person was really only triggered by this ISIS attack or if there were other issues and that was just the easiest thing to blame. I'm sure there were other witnesses that didn't feel the need to try to take their own life.
Yes, that comment on the kids was so asinine. Like no, sorry, why should a person in that much suffering be forced to stay alive for anyone? If you don't care about all her other loved ones being hurt, then it should go for everyone, because it's about that person's bodily autonomy. I still feel it's so tragic that a 23-year-old would feel so much pain she didn't see any other way out, but in principle, it should be allowed, with strict regulation. And of course everyone reacts differently to the same traumatic situation based on their history, there is no contradiction there. The sum of all her life experiences added up in a way that made this particular event insurmountable for her nervous system. Doesn't change the fact that she got to the point she got to, which was unbearable for her.
I have borderline personality Disorder and honestly I'm glad we don't have that relaxed of euthanasia laws in California. There are times where I fall in such a deep depression that I do want to die but I'm glad that I don't end up killing myself but if it was that easy to get euthanized I probably would and I would have left a lot of hurt people behind. Even as an anarchist I wouldn't go that far when it comes to legal euthanasia. We are opening up at Pandora's Box at that point. It will be more common to kill yourself than to seek help.
The only sad thing is that it was 23 years too many. Had she never have been born, she would have never suffered to the point of choosing suicide in the first place.
She could have been helped… no one is “beyond help”… this is just sad… she didn’t get the help she needed, clearly… she had every right to want to die, but she could have been helped… time really can help, it’s just so sad to hear she gave up…
do you have any empirical evidence that no one is beyond help. Or are you basing your policy opinion about regulating a persons private decisions on nothing but a wild guess?
@@Ockerlord What the f***?? What kind of response even is this? I have to find scientific proof to PROVE to you that we shouldn’t give up on one another?? Where is your humanity?? We are people! We are suppose to be there for one another and NEVER give up on each other! We are suppose to be there to help one another, NOT KILL EACH OTHER! Jesus Christ. They tried 20 medications for depression, and spent six years helping her, and then just gave up. They gave up. Before her brain had even fully developed, they listened to the wishes of a 23-year-old who was mentally ill, and they gave up. When someone is depressed or traumatized, OF COURSE they want to die, but that doesn’t mean we just give up on them… “We tried twenty things for six years; we tried ‘eeeverrryything.’ Let’s just give up and let her kill herself.” That’s what those people who were suppose to help her decided. There’s a way she could have been helped, the brain has neuro plasticity. We should help those that are suffering, retrain their minds, work with them, not KILL them. Not allow them to kill themselves! How barbaric. With your way of thinking, so many people would be dead right now that were helped. So many.
I find it hard to believe a physically healthy 23yo couldn’t kill themselves twice - and the fact that they tried to but didn’t leads me to believe that some part of themselves didn’t want to. Why would the state even have to get involved in this?
Hi, I'm the proverbial hard-core libertarian and I believe that any adult has an absolute right to commit suicide. "Assisted suicide" is another matter, though. It's a euphemism, of course; what it actually means is that someone else is killing you, which is generally considered murder, except when it's not. And in this case, there is huge difference between physical and emotional ailments. The difference is that modern medical science is capable of predicting that someone has no reasonable chance of recovery from constant physical pain or from a debilitating disease, and so for a physician to euthanize such a patient is a commendable act of compassion. On the other hand, modern psychiatry is not capable of predicting that someone has no reasonable chance of recovering from depression. And you cannot exhaust all treatment possibilities for depression, because one of the treatments is time. My conclusion is that if this woman truly feels hopeless, she has every right to end her life, but no doctor has the right to do it for her.
I don’t think that we understand what mental health issues can physically feel like. I certainly didn’t until it happened to me. If someone had depression or anxiety I believed they just had to change their thoughts “think happy thoughts” and they would get better. Turns out it’s completely impossible to change that feeling, not by thinking differently and for some not even with most medications. For me it comes and goes on its own. If it was there constantly, I wouldn’t be here. The doctors have told me that they don’t know exactly HOW any of the medicines for mental health work. It does feel like my brain is raw, a constant nails too a chalk board feeling inside my head. Personally I think it’s related to my demyelinating disease, but because it gets worse with stress, my neurologist said it’s a psychological issue.. Psychiatrists give medication without even measuring anything other than what you tell them. It would be like giving a heart patient medication and just asking them if they feel better. I don’t blame them, I don’t think there is a way for them to look at what is actually physically happening inside your brain. But if they could then they would probably treat you as a patient who is suffering from (and did everything they could for) a brain tumor. Then people would be more sympathetic to that person and not blame them for wanting that feeling too end - even if it meant leaving kids behind.
Choose life! From one depressed person to another, I know the tunnel can get dark but always move forward! We were born to live. Take pleasure in the simple things and love one another.
The ultimate definition of freedom is being able to make this decision. And all the laws in the world cannot stop the final outcome. No reason to allow any other person make it or not.
I don't think anyone should be forced to continue living, because no one agreed to come into the world in the first place. The idea that suicide would harm the idea of "life is precious" doesn't seem reasonable; if you have problems, people don't seem to care very much, the government doesn't care, your employer doesn't care. At least it's that way in the US. Where's the preciousness for someone struggling? I agree with them that a person with kids probably has a responsibility to stay alive.
I’m sorry that I don’t know for sure if this is true or not, but two people have told me recently, here in Canada, that the government (or doctors?) has been allowing people who are on ODSP disability to have Dr. assisted suicide for the reason of “poverty”! People on ODSP in Ontario only get $980 per month subsidy! In Toronto, and most of Ontario, you cannot even rent a bedroom for that price. Granted, since they’re on ODSP, they are also disabled, but the idea is that they’re not disabled enough to qualify for euthanasia, but because of their poverty they’re being allowed it! Sorry I haven’t gone and researched to see if it’s true, but, and I hate to say this, a lot of times things pass under the radar and aren’t necessarily law, so I don’t expect to see it in black-and-white. In any case, as soon as Canada started discussing legalized euthanasia, I was against it, but only because I thought and I still think it’s a slippery slope! It was a lonely position to take because it’s mostly right wing and/or Christians who tend to be against it. But an extreme majority of the population in Canada is for it! It’s scary thinking Of where it can lead. How often will nurses or doctors be quietly telling a patient that they should unburden their families and taxpayers and off themselves?!
Assisted suicide may be less traumatic for a person's loved ones than a loved one finding a hanging body in the bedroom. They may get to talk it out at least and get affairs in order. Perhaps find a way to determine if they're suicidally depressed before Killin em...maybe set it up so they have to push the kill button themselves if they're ready to go so the Dr doesn't have to carry that guilt.
@Dan Reiser This is very true, and mental health in particular should disqualify you from making that choice, because by definition if someone is mentally Ill how do they really have the mental reasoning to make a right choice? A perfect example of this was my dad, he was very sick in the hospital from heart failure, he hadn't slept in 4 days, he got to the point where he completely gave up, said he wanted to die and didn't want treatment anymore. My sister immediately jumped on the side of him, as if that was his "choice" and we should respect it. I got pretty angry, pointing out that he was delirious, and was in no mental state to make such a choice in the first place. Lo and behold he finally slept and didn't want to die the next day..
This one is very different, My mother just used oregon's Death with dignity law this last summer. She was riddled with cancer and suffering greatly. Likely only a month to live either way. Very different then a 23 year old with there whole life ahead of them. Everyone has bad times, some people have real bad times. But as long as you have a future it can get better. Esp at 23.
@@AndyPrimeOneim very supportive if you have something debilitating like terminal cancer and it's just the choice of should this person be a guinea pig or die as they want to. In this case it honestly seems like she could've done a lot more in her life and had choices. The thing I'd couldn't someone convince a perfectly healthy person physically and mentally be convince to come to them for suicide. Can't a normally lonely person be persuaded in a heat of the moment to go through and halfway towards death you suddenly regret like most suicide attempts.
Id rather die in a lab than risk someone finding me and being traumatized for life. I dont think anyone should be made to suffer. The world sucks and I can't blame anyone for not wanting to be in it.
It's not that simple. Even when euthanasia is illegal, it happens by people breaking the law. That's how it should be: illegal and available, precisely to avoid this ridiculous situation of a healthy 23 year old killing herself with state sanction. The wink and the nod method is the correct method.
@@annaclarafenyo8185 who in the hell are you to tell a 23-year-old that is suffering immensely like this woman was that it's ridiculous for her to consider suicide? You're not the one doing the suffering, she is! You are in no position to tell her that she must continue suffering.
@@jamessantell6707 She doesn't have to continue suffering. She can commit suicide by herself, illegally, or with illegal help from her friends. You can't legalize this situation.
@@annaclarafenyo8185 You haven't provided a good reason why it shouldn't be legalized. Sure, healthy people may kill themselves as a result but how many unhealthy people are needlessly suffering right now? Don't they deserve peace if all other options are exhausted? And this poor woman was suffering. There are people that are physically healthy that are mentally unhealthy, and that's important to consider, too. We don't have the knowledge to determine what she should have done, nor do we have the right.
It’s very sad that this 23-year-old young woman feel like she couldn’t go on. The problem I have with this concept is in the United States where really profit driven and I’m afraid some tragedies would occur in the name of someone getting paid
Even in the public sector, if you have people who's job is to assist suicide, then there's incentive sturcture for it to keep happening and a class of people where assiting suicide will just be another day at the office.
This is the society that the global elite ruling class want. Naturally, progressives will embrace this as muh free choice while demanding forced vaccinations.
Whenever you mention the persons age in this question and being opposed to the suicide you're implying that you would be OK with it if the person was older. Maybe its the general worship of youth and the hatred of old people in this society. I'm so glad I wasn't trained to hate old people like so many of a certain age seem to. Sounding more like Logan's Run every time I see one of these debates.
It is sad when an 80 something year old person feels they can no longer gone in an excruciating life. It is very sad when a €23 person feels the same. Simply because the younger person had about 50 or 60 more potential years of life. There is a cult of youth. That does not change what I said
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Having known someone who actually worked as a euthanasia provider in Switzerland, it bears saying that it is a long and regulated process. From signing up to it to the administration of the euthanasia drug it takes maybe a year, if not more, and the person undergoes many consultations during that period etc. This can also be psychologically difficult for those administering the process as they also form a personal relationship to the client, by necessity.
This is INSANE. Depression can be overcome . This person was not thinking clearly in a depressed state . It’s a freeze state and comes from a trauma . I suffered my whole life until I found rewiring of the brain . Instead of offering her death , offer her HOPE and recovery 😡
My Uncle went through that process in Switzerland after he developed ALS. I was glad he had the option. You make a good point about the physicians involved. Doctors have a hard time losing patients in general, let alone being the ones that deliberately end their lives.
@@mariastefanie5835 This is psychotic shame on Krystal and Kyle supporting this I’ve survived sexual trauma, a car accident, severe bullying, & racism. Why can’t she go to therapy and get help by professionals? This is insane, the liberals aren’t the left let’s make that separation from here on out.
@@mariastefanie5835 with all due respect for what you’ve been through, what makes you think that that wasn’t offered to her as well? According to Krystal, she had tried everything that was available. Nobody offered her death. What the law does is allow people to do so, when their pain is so unbearable that there are no existing therapeutic ways to ease it. They don’t go looking for people to offer that option to. People search it out on their own. Plus, people can commit suicide on their own. They do so all the time in this country with a gun. Suicide is the #1 type of deadly shooting in this country. Its not mass shootings, school shootings, or even police shootings. It’s suicide.
One of the benefits of a legal process would be very similar to legal drug use sites. People who come there can also seek treatment and access resources. In the same way, if people could come in to apply for assisted suicide, that would get them started in a process for help options and treatment. They would have to make it all the way through a screening process and series of efforts to save them before the suicide could be approved. I can see a benefit there, even if it seems crazy, but if people wanting to die can actually legally go somewhere and ask for it, that can get them in touch with the resources they need. If they just do it themselves instead, they never have that touch point to get help.
The problem I have, at least in America, is that mental health care is obscenely expensive so forcing people to go through years of treatment first is impossible. For example one of my medications costs 1300 a month without insurance. Then you have to add on the fact that most mental health medications have severe side effects and withdrawal symptoms and I just can’t support putting people through that if they don’t want to. As someone who’s battled with wanting to end things since my preteen years, I wish I would just be allowed to do it already. I’ve had years of therapy and medication, and it just doesn’t help. Legal euthanasia is important because it’s actually fairly hard to end things. Survival instinct is incredibly annoying, and fast/painless methods are usually complicated, expensive, or risk jail time. If you fail, you put loved ones through extra grief and worry, plus you’ll probably get slapped with insane medical bills. Oh and you could also wind up a vegetable in worst case scenarios.
I'm with Kyle on this one. I think believing that depression is eternal is an incredibly defeatist and sad attitude. I understand it's hard to live under those circumstances but to allow something irreversible like this to happen is inhumane and shows a lack of respect for life.
@@Cettywise Nobody can force them. A person is free to end their life whenever they want unless they're in some kind of constant lockdown and supervision.
I wonder if by "terminal illness", Krystal and/or Kyle would consider Alzheimer's in that category? My personal opinion is "hell yes" after watching what my father has been going through, and by extension, my mother. His entire family died of Alzheimer's and I myself have a statistically much higher chance of developing this horrific disease. My hope is by the time I would get it, we would have options here in the US to checkout on our own terms, with help. Otherwise, I can't see riding that sh*t into the ground. There's just no good reason to do so.
Most everyone who has been affected by a family member with severe cognitive issues that I've talked to has openly acknowledged that they want to end their lives while they can still mostly function because it's so brutal on family/caregivers when the disease gets to a certain point.
100%. My grandmother went through the same thing. Every day she said she wanted to die. When she did, I was so happy for her. She was miserable the last 2yrs of her life.
I think anyone who has experience with Alzheimer's sufferers has similar views. The thought of eventually developing the disease is simply the greatest fear throughout the lives of children or relatives of Alzheimer's sufferers. It seems a no brainer to me that people should be allowed check out with dignity once they cease to be able to function normally and live independently.
The problem with placing Alzheimers in this category is that the person, by definition, is not of sound mind. Unfortunately, that makes it difficult if not impossible for them to make such a profound decision with absolute clarity.
@@dlg5485 Well, that's not the definition. Alzheimer's disease has many levels to it, and someone in the early stages is very different from someone in the late stages. I would just remove this arbitrary requirement altogether and make it a right for that person, regardless of what you think of their mental capability, because it really does not matter on its own.
What infuriates me about this case is that her death was originally planned for march 20th, two days before the anniversary of the Brussels attacks. But due to an anonymous complaint (probably some religious group) at the last moment it got delayed for another 2 months. She had planned out everything she still wanted to do and the people she still wanted to meet. After she had done all that, saying goodbye to everyone she knew, she was forced to spent another 2 months suffering her illness and ended up blocking herself off from the outside world.
That infuriates you? Grow up. What she did was wrong, no matter her excuse. She could have done it herself if she was truly serious about it. Seeing a terrible thing is no reason to kill yourself though, why was this ever approved?
I agree 1,000,000% with Krystal. Kyle why are people attempting suicide? Not just because they want to, but because living feels so unbearable that they would rather die. Capitalism plays a major role in people's depression/ pain
There is no mind/body dichotomy: it is a self-reflective system with very real permanent scarring throughout. Recovery is a question of contextualization, which is a function of the extrinsic qualities of life. Would it have been possible for her to recover? The chance was not zero. Is our world conducive for it? I don't believe so. Is the world likely to get worse? Yes. The pain you comprehend is the pain you've experienced and, unfortunately (or fortunately?), it can have a compounding effect with empathy.
I’ve been watching both of y’all for a while, and I just need to say, I love your discussions. You both have honest, we’ll thought out positions. Plus you argue them in good faith and really listen to each other. It’s just super refreshing compared to the garbage discussions I see in other media I know this probably won’t get read, but I really do appreciate y’all Krystal, Kyle, and Friends cast and crew. Ya’ll have my Substack subscription. ❤
My Grandmother also died of a morphine overdose back in 1978 with the help of a sympathetic doctor. I think it still happens more then most people suspect.
She went gently. Her doctor cared for her. There is an ethical and deeply moral stance that doctors take agaisnt the law. They take the hippocratic oath which includes "to do no harm". The doctor probably saw your grandma suffering and would not allow her to be harmed by that pain any longer so they used the morphine to take the pain from their patent.
@@theodorebear6714 put it perfectly. Many families don't know the realities of what the suffering like the people who actually do the work to care for their sick loved ones. Families like to believe they're doing good by keeping their suffering loved ones alive. Its super selfish.
I don't agree with Kyle, he sounds kinda like a pro life guy on this If someone wants to kill themselves, do it got them or they might hurt others in the process Legalize assisted suicide, but make it a process where you have to exhaust every option first I don't care if people wanna off themselves, let them do it You can't know what it's like being in someone else's head I also don't care if someone wants to kill their unborn baby, do what you want, life isn't as precious as you wanna think, we are all just organs of the same being, and if one is failing, cut it out and move on (assuming we have some organ redundancy lol)
If you want to stop living there is very little that can be done to stop it, so the real question is should you be allowed to get medical help in doing so or should you do it yourself in a less humane way.
This is exactly my view too. If somebody has been through all the prescribed treatments, explored unconventional treatments and they remain resolute in wanting to die, then they'll almost certainly find a way to do it. I would rather the state provide an option of last resort, where the person can die in peaceful surroundings under medical supervision, rather than being alone and terrified jumping in front of an oncoming train in the dead of night. Neither outcome is pleasant and every effort should be made to help the patient overcome the trauma which is driving them to such desperation, but if things get to a point where everyone feels as though further treatment is no longer effective, don't leave these desperate vulnerable people to face their end alone, respect their decision and the reccomendations of the doctors and help the patient to end their life with dignity.
There's plenty that can be done. I know from experience and years of research. Psychedelics and lucid dreaming are some ways people can work on their problems in healthy ways. This way people are bound to find the root of their issue and how to fix it
@@shadw4701 But what if they don't want to do it? Are you saying we don't have control over our own bodies? What is the moral basis and foundation for such a belief? Is it some bronze age bs book and god/s?
@@theonewhoweeps5118 not sure if psychedelics are something can't people consider. They would also need to do it in a medical setting because giving psychadelics to someone on the edge isn't always a great idea .especally by yourself
@@somethingginterestingg4275 treatment with psychedelics is rare in Europe (it’s still very much in a research phase) but when it’s done here under guidance of medical professionals
Being in this existence is overrated. We do that because we have biologically driven, self preservation instincts and we don't really know what's after death, if there's anything at all and that makes and that makes us afraid. We need to get over those things and let people who want off the train early to get off mercifully and with dignity and when they want to.
I believe it was Emperor Constantine that declared suicide a sin. Because life was so hard for the serfs that they were jumping off cliffs to get to heaven and royalty was starving because there weren’t enough serfs to tend to their food needs.
They care about fetuses, but not babies, children, men nor women. Only fetuses and clump of cells after conception. Pre-born they will protect you. Pre-school you are f**ked.
Life is also too precious to live in anguish that you cannot control and to live only because someone who has not experienced this tells you that you have to live.
This sounds more like doing something in spite of people telling you that you shouldn't than it is about having "freedom" to do it. Nobody can forbid you in taking your own life, but that doesn't mean that other people should help you in that process.
I've never seen the life is precious argument used like this but you know what you're right. Most people say life is precious so ban physician suicide, but life is precious so why are you going to force someone to suffer longer than they need to?
@@leonxl There are a lot of other uses for a gun, and the most common is actually preserving your own life. So no, it's not the sellers fault that he sells the gun to someone he doesn't know is going to commit suicide. With assisted euthanasia that is the whole purpose, so your logic is totally false.
When severely depressed just waking up and getting up to use the restroom or eat can be exhausting. I'm assuming she didn't have to work a job if she had such severe mental decline and she had housing and food benefits/assistance. In the States if you're this depressed you still have to work to afford outrageous housing costs or fight to get assistance. It's hard to call that living. I'm sad that she felt this was her only way to peace but I'm glad she had the choice. I'm hopeful for the future of mental health care in the world, we've made some good strides in the US in the past 30yrs. We need to take care of each other.
@@vinny9868 I assume she was speaking in abstract. Like would she have come to regret a decision had she not made it. Kinda like how some people who attempt suicide but fail, end up regretting making the decision to kill themselves later in life.
As doom and gloom as it sounds, the fact that there are govt assisted suicide programs around the world, gives me hope that when I wanna go, I can go with dignity as opposed to being riddled with disease in old age
Well if you actually gave a sh*t about your life, you would live it in a way right now that severely lowered the chances of you being diseased and sick in old age, but you don't really care about that do you?
As someone who’s suffers from cycles of severe depression and had a parent committed suicide, I agree. I used to resent my biological father for leaving us, but now I understand. I can’t bring myself to do it myself because leaving family behind is HORRIBLE, but if my brother or mother came to me and told me they needed to let go (whether it me cancer or mental illness) and said goodbye, I wouldn’t resent them. I’d understand. I’d let them pass before their life story became a tragedy
@@ApartmentPrepping you’re not alone. There’s so much going off and all of life’s wonders fade away as the days go by. The taste of food becomes subtle. “Happiness” synapses start to weaken. Traveling becomes a burden. Every day that we awaken goes from a gift to a curse. But just know that this is still something special, the probability of us being alive at this given time is one in trillions. Try to raw dog life, it’ll end in a very short amount of time. Embrace the suck.
I think that’s a little reckless and naive that a lot of people attempt suicide and a lot of them multiple times and actually turn their life around so are we letting people give in to temporary downs ?? I think there should be a age limit and also all other options have been tried and in rational time table.
Don't know that's really true. I wanted to die all last year. I don't anymore. 23 year olds are very volatile. Further, there were likely a LOT of people who were hurt by her death. Murder hurts everyone around the person who dies. Suicide hurts many people very badly, not just the one who died.
@@ApartmentPrepping Most people don't understand what the life trajectory can look like for someone with severe mental illness. Your opinion is controversial but I have to agree given what I'm experiencing in my own life. I live with severe bipolar disorder that has only gotten worse with time, and no amount of medication has made a substantial difference. I think if legal assisted suicide was more common, it would lead to less people doing it in a spur of the moment decision, all alone with nobody to talk to because they know the subject is simply unapproachable.
None of us had a say in our creation. We're all thrown into this forced fight for survival. Maybe not all wish to partake for the long haul. For that reason alone, everyone should be able to dictate the pace of their life/death. Doctors are uncomfortable by it? Find a new profession. Helping people doesn't necessitate forcing your world view onto someone. YOU like living? Good for YOU. It's ME we're talking about here.
I’ve been struggling with mental illness my entire life. I’m 28 now and it’s only gotten worse. I’m at a low where I’ve been thinking about committing suicide because I’ve tried everything and I haven’t been able to get better. It’s truly hard to describe what it’s like to live a life where you feel like you live in your own personal hell and your body and mind is against you. And people telling me I’m not alone doesn’t help. Very few things keep me around but I think the fact that I don’t have an easy access to end my life in a painless way is one of them. I completely understand the want to end ones life. I think we should we all have that choice
I don’t have social media. I take daily walks and I don’t masterbate and watch porn. I have PTSD , depersonalization/derealization and severe depression. I don’t feel connected to myself or the world around me because of it. Regular therapy isn’t helpful and neither is the things u suggested as I tried them already as their common suggestions. I just think my cocktail of mental illness makes it harder to “fix” with simple stuff like that. I can’t even go out with friends and family without having a panic attack and shutting down. But thank you anyways for your reply and suggestions. Hope you’re doing well
@@Emmiiii267 Your kindness came through in your reply. You took care to explain yourself well and expressed gratitude at the end. It sounds like you face difficult challenges. All the best.
Over a certain period of time in my life, the only reason I didn’t follow through was out of the fear that I wouldn’t be successful & then bound to a nursing home, essentially a vegetable from injuring myself. Do I still have the desire now? No. Do I regret feeling that way or scared about thinking how close I was? Absolutely not. The pain and isolation is not something I’d wish on worst enemy. This is 1000% a good idea.
I’m 28 and I feel that way now. I’ve suffered with mental illness since I was a child and it’s only gotten worse. The Only thing that has stopped me is not finding A way of doing it fast and painlessly. I can’t imagine getting over this feeling since I’ve felt it my whole life but I’m happy to hear that you don’t feel that way anymore. Hope it keeps getting bette for you and thank you for sharing your story ❤
@@Emmiiii267 if I’m allowed to share a little more…while life/my MH now is far from perfect, the silver lining that comes from being so low, you basically lose your fear of death, or better to say your attachment to life and worldly things. They lose importance as your perspective shifts. Especially if you’re a trauma survivor, with the right support and path forward of you’re own choosing (I say with time, support and action), you begin to get a true sense of your own power. And if you’re detached from those two inherent human weaknesses (fear and desire) it puts you in a pretty good position to tackle life’s challenges.
One way or another… life is messy. For example, cancer doesn’t care about your plans, family or ideals. Suicide is a personal choice and if it is destigmatized and people are thinking about it, they may feel comfortable talking about their problems knowing they won’t get locked up and that may change their mind. And to Kyle’s concern of life being seen as unimportant, I think watching the news it is apparent every day that that is the case. We are told how precious life is and we see people are treated like trash
As a belgian who's familiar with the euthanasia law I am annoyed by how uninformed this debate was. Basically all questions and concerns you guys had could be answered. You should look into the exact provisions that are in the law and into this womans life and mental health problems. The law is very clear and the regulations are quite strict. For 20 years now the law hasn't changed much and to my knowledge there haven't been maior issues. To answer Kyle's concern, not everyone that is depressed and suicidal can get euthanasia. The illness needs to be incurable and a medical expert at this ilness must decide if that is the case. To give an answer to Krystal's concern: someone who suffers from severe mental illness and has unbearable suffering (both are required) is likeky unable to care for children. Also an acception would be discriminatory against women who still are most often caregivers. Btw there is an important distinction betweel physician assisted death and euthanasia.
I mean... It's fucking horrible and I hate that this happened but if you are for rights and freedom... This could be a possibility that someone wants this that bad. 😞
I get that, and I don't understand exactly how bad this woman's situation was, but I think we should consider the psychology behind suicidal behavior. Suicide is typically impulsive; it's a feeling that comes and goes for some people suffering with mental illness, but it can never be reversed once it's done. While I wouldn't want anyone to suffer such intense mental distress with no hope of recovery, do we really want to be a society that gives up on people in these circumstances if there's a chance for their recovery? To be clear, I'm absolutely in favor euthanasia as an available option in the most hopeless circumstances of terminal illness, paralysis, excruciating chronic pain, etc., but I don't know if this is the right trajectory to take if we want to say that we truly value human happiness and wellbeing.
It is very arrogant to impose your will on someone who wants to check out. It is not your business to interfere in someone's decision to check out of this hotel. You have no idea what they are feeling and it is their decision. Just like telling an honest citizen living in the ghetto, they can't have a semi-automatic weapon to defend themselves while politicians and the wealthy class have the best security money can buy. You can't have people tell you what to do because they have an idealism that is totally irrelevant to someone else's situation. What tyranny, and despotism to even entertain that you have the right to make it so hard for someone who has already agonized for who knows how long before they came to this point. Philosophically, I may just have a more positive outlook and relaxed attitude toward letting go. Mind your own business. We live in a dystopian wasteland, to begin with, and there are many reasons why someone might not care to continue. My favorite is pro-lifers. Their faux care for the child stops after birth. They do nothing to create a better infrastructure for poor and disenfranchised children in this country born into nightmare landscapes. They even vote against school lunches, daycare assistance, living wages, and affordable healthcare. The bastards even vote to defund PBS and Big Bird.
Good for her to have her choice, when years of treatments do not work then this was her choice. Mental pain is equal to physical pain. There are rules and it often requires further testing and or treatments.
@@dontforgettolike7127 I'm 28 years old and I've been depressed for around 15 years. Yeah, it's bad and I have other mental conditions on top of that. Can't wait until I can end my life legally via Exit Switzerland here, just need to wait 2 more years.
@@YunoGasai414 It is sad that in-spite of all the treatments that for some they do not work. I hope on the next two years you can find some peace and effective treatments.
Unfortunately, we live in a world that doesn't provide the appropriate nor sufficient care to those in need. There is only one way to end suffering. Especially if it's a quality of life issue. I've been living with chronic pain and chronic health issues for over 20 years. Recovery is not an option. I'm mentally and emotionally exhausted from dealing with the programs I have to deal with in order to prevent myself from becoming homeless. Millions of us become collateral damage.
I think the area where this becomes troubling is in situations where the patient lacks/loses mental capacity (e.g. as a result of a severe illness) and others (e.g. healthcare professionals, family members, advocates) make the decision on their behalf and arrive at the conclusion that assisted death is in the patient's best interest. Provided there are major restrictions / safeguards around this, I can see a reasonable rationale for having assisted dying be legal, potentially even as far as for people with severe mental illness.
i am 100% in favour of this. if you are willing to jump through all the hoops placed in front of you because you want to die that badly, it is what is. i think you should have the right to do that. they're probably going to do it anyway, in a much more painful way with a lower chance of success if you tell them no.
Euthanasia because you WITNESSED a tragedy but SURVIVED?? She was LUCKY and now her life is a GIFT and taking her own life is a big eff you to all of the people who died. I am an atheist but a small part of me wants to believe the Catholics when they say that suicide death leads to Hell.
@@Zurround brother, no. She was traumatized and probably relived the event thousands of times. After reliving watching dozens of other people die over and over again, she didn't want to go through it anymore. It seems very understandable to me.
@@Fleezblarp Um... THERAPY?? Maybe even including GROUP therapy for trauma victims? If I had been the euthanasia doctor I would have ONLY given her a drug to cause REGULAR sleep and then when she wakes up I would have a long talk with her to convince her the importance of life. I might even lose my job but some day she would be grateful to me for that.
All forms of maladaptive survival behaviors caused by trauma are trying to serve us in some way I.e protect us from pain. Suicidal ideation is when there are no self soothing mechanisms that can overcome the pain. This is one of the times we need the collective, community to overcome that part of a persons consciousness that has consumed their perspective both in thought and feeling. Their higher self is in there & community can help people bring that out. I’m for people having the ability to legally commit suicide as long as society does its job and give them the help they need to start to integrate the traumatized maladaptive behaviors. It’s the same with drugs. People should have access to all drugs safely but with the idea of helping to guide them toward accessing the higher parts of themselves that have the clarity of mind that addictions don’t serve them. We have a long way to go in society but I think this solution would provide most benefit to the individual and society at large
Okay let's try this ... Either you are able to give someone the meaning of life back in case they lost it ... or they are able to go as they wish. Because Im absolutely certain that just like for you Kyle and many others ... Your problem is much more a desire to avoid an undesirable reality for all of us that there does not exist an inherent greater meaning to life ( human existence ). The trick for everyone is to either be able to accept those conditions and proceed anyway or not.
This sounds like a storyline out of HBO’s The Leftovers, an apocalyptic post rapture drama series. They were undergoing societal collapse and it feels like the real world becomes more and more dystopian daily.
I live in a state with a death with dignity law. My close friend had a terminal progressive brain/neurological disorder that would render her both mentally and physically incapable of taking care of herself. The disease would become more painful as it progressed and she was already in terrible pain. Even with that scenario, she was NOT able to find 2 doctors that would sign the paperwork for euthanasia. In fact, she couldn’t find any state that would allow her physician assisted suicide. She flew to Switzerland to access the system there which allowed her to make that decision for herself. Before she left she wrote me a 5 page letter explaining her choice and sharing her thoughts with me. I cannot blame her for her choice. I wish the laws were a bit more flexible so she wouldn’t have to take that step without a friend or family member to be with her at the end of her life.
So only people with whom passport and money can die with dignity just like if abortion is illegal, only wealthy people that can travel will be able to have them.
There are other ways. You can’t be force fed, nor forced to take your meds nor to drink water. You can possibly find a doc to Euthenize you but the meds for it are not covered by Medicare and are very expensive. That’s why you find elders jumping off cliffs and just try to find a car rental agency that will rent to elders. We have an odd attitude about death in this country. Yes, we’ll euthenize old Toby our beloved Golden Shepherd to put him out of his misery but no way will we support Mom or dad if they want to escape their misery.
So sad to hear that 'in the land of the free' people can't get the help they need to exercise their freedoms.
Sorry for your loss.
If she were suffering from debilitating depression would you support her dying?
I think most doctors are opposed to assisted suicide. It seems counter intuitive to me because one would think that the patient's interests should come first, within reason. Someone who has a terminal illness that cause them severe pain should be allowed to choose what they think is best for them. Maybe it's because of the Hippocratic Oath they take or their own personal religious beliefs. It could be also that they're afraid of being sued by family members.
The problem with legalizing euthanasia, without free medical care, is that even for a terminally ill patients, there is the possibility is that they are doing it not because the reached the end of the road, but they want to spare their family the healthcare cost of keeping them alive.
You point utterly fails to apply in societies where the family does not financially suffer from end-of-life care.
Which are most western nations, public health insurance takes care of it.
@@nilesbutler8638 It's a very Americanized view on the thing, yes
@@mikec8027 Its not fully irrelevant though.
Even in the nations where family does not have to shoulder all or at least some part of the weight of their elders care, one can still assume inheritance deliberations.
Or costs not directly related to healthcare like housing and personal consumption.
It is fair to assume there can be situations where an elder person might feel pressure to go for euthanasia even if they are not fully on board.
But I say the souvereignity right over ones own life is more important than protection from theoretical pressures.
Best thing that can be done is reducing motive for those pressures, i.e. socializing the burdens for family. So they dont have added motive to pressure somebody.
@@nilesbutler8638 Yes public health takes care of it. And then sends the bill to the next of kin.
@@mischevious Which nation, which system are you talking of?
Or are you speaking in general as in "public healthcare free at the point of service does also have to be paid for somehow" ?
That meme is a well kown truism and has been used for decades. Of course no doctor, nurse or pharmaceuticalmanufacturer works for free.
But was and still is rather silly.
Since socialized healthcare systems have been shown over and over to archieve better health and care outcomes, producing lower management overheadcosts than private ones.
Even in mixed systems like germany, where both concepts are allowed in parallel, the private ones take more money in and deliver worse consumer outcomes once levelized. Which should be obvious since the profit-driven middleman is missing in public systems.
I'm from Belgium and this case was a big story because of the reason of her choice for euthenasia, the terror attacks. She lost a lot of her friends (they were going on a senior year trip to Italy) and had severe anxiety attacks, depressions and paranoia. To legally get euthanasia in Belgium you must get the green light of not only two specialists (in this case psychologists) and there decisions must be OK'ed by a board, who's members are all specialist in the field (proffessors, docters, social workers, etc.). The decisions isn't taking willy nilly and only as a last resort. When she finally got the green light and a date, she took the time to say goodbye to all her loved ones and take a holiday to Italy as to finally end that chapter. It was sheduled 2 days before the anniversary of the terror attacks which was important for her as she didn't wanted to relive it again. Unfortunatly some anonymous complaint made that impossible as authorities had to revisite the case and make sure that everything was done legally and every other option was exhausted before the euthanasia could be done. This took 6 months, time which became hell for her. Instead of a sereen end with dignity and peace, it became a drawn-out torture of uncertainty which thankfully ended in a good way for her. All because of some douche who cannot accept that someone wants to end her life and that a society doesn't want to let her do it in a bad way.
The person who made the complaint made her live through the anniversary then. That's pure cruelty 😢
After your description it looks even more horrific than without it. Psychiatrists, fucking board of some bureaucrats said to the person they supposed to help "we cant do anything, so go kill yourself, but say bye to your mom first", quite literally.
It didn't end in a good way. If she wanted to commit suicide for real, she could easily do it with an enormous dose of opiates, driving out in the woods, and taking them all away from other people. There is no reason to make this process legal. When euthanasia is necessary, people should break the law against it.
"ended in a good way" - lol
@@Williamtolduso The real kicker is that I sent her to hell because she committed a sin that I cannot forgive. And I will give a bonus point for the person that made the complaint because that person enforced my bible rules.
Forcing people to live a life they hate that they are powerless to change is torture, full stop. No one should have the right to force you to live if every day is going to be a nightmare experience for you.
Sorry but you lost me. Where in this conversation did anyone say anything about forcing you to live?
@@danaaronmusic when someone is living in pain, and you tell them "you're not allowed to die", you are telling them "you need to continue living agony". There comes a point where those are the only two options in some cases and taking away one of them is exactly equivalent to forcing the choice of the other.
@@LordMajicus Again, no one said anything about forcing you to live or not allowing you to die. You have every right to end your life if that is your choice. The matter in question here is whether a physician has the right to euthanize you.
This is hard. As someone who's suffered from a number of psychological issues, and did attempt self termination in the past, it's kind of difficult for me to either condemn or condone this. I've had good things happen to me since that time that I would've missed out on. I'm not 'cured', I still have issues, but I'm much better at coping with them, avoiding triggers, and dealing with the bad times. On the one hand, It's hard for me to accept that a 23 year old couldn't take one more step forward to see if they could find just a tiny sliver of light at the end of the tunnel. What if? Just one more minute, one more hour, one more day...maybe things can be different. On the other hand, it's cruel to try to force someone to carry on while enduring that kind of suffering. If I would've had to deal with something like that, I seriously doubt I'd still be here.
This is Belgium, my guess is they had an extensive process to try and find a solution, but they never did. After all it all started in 2016. Their are always some people who can't recover from something. We only need to have 1 person in history to give a law a reason to exist I guess. I hope you are able to keep improving your situation.
We just need a massive investment in mental health. The problem is a lot economic systems in our world don't care for mental health except for the loss of a worker. There is no profit in it.
@@kellen5545 this is a US problem, if you want to look at it purely from a capitalism sense not a moral one. Also an other US problem is just focused to much on the short term. The benefit to society is that the worker will get back to work and the return on investment is compounded over the years like compound interest.
Right but we also need to reduce the reasons for mental health problems. There is a study that says that a person can lose up to 15 IQ points if they can't afford to pay even basic bills. We shouldn't have so many people depressed. Clearly we are doing something wrong in our societies. Look at Global warming, and the list goes on and on. We need to address fundamental issues or we will never be able to even afford or administer that much care in total. It's high time we treat the underlying condition(s) and not just put band-aids on a broken system.
@@autohmae It seems mental health in Belgium isn't free, nor covered by the government health care in any way. 70 Euro seems to be where consultations start and clearly going broke from trying to get better isn't going to help your stress or life. She might not have had full access to help as they only pay for the drugs not the possibly even more important therapy.
As a physically and mentally disabled and mentally ill person and has attempted suicide thrice I feel like doctors especially in the psychology field, these doctors do not know enough about what it’s like to actually live through these things everyday and do not listen to or believe their patients properly compared to doctors that do experience these things. It took me switching doctors twice for a doctor to decide to take my chronic physical and mental pain seriously and one I knew my entire life did not care. I think the place medicine and societal empathy is at now is not ready for something as misunderstood to make a decision like this yet.
The amount of time it takes for a doctor to not only believe you are in fact experiencing something for them to think you’re not trying to get drugs for free on top of “the average time to get something diagnosed 7 years” is is enough alone for me to believe we just aren’t ready on a systemwide euthanasia option for mental illnesses.
Also it is not uncommon for illnesses aren’t realized to be misidentified, and subsequently mistreated, until the autopsy. While we are far along medically from our past, we are not as far along as we like to believe we are
Throwing up barriers for people with major or suicidal depression will achieve nothing but making the last days of their life even more miserable.
I think what Kyle is getting at is that depression may cause someone to want to end their own life, but that feeling may eventually be defeated (and frequently is) through treatment rather than suicide, and obviously we should make sure that people have been given every treatment to try defeating depression through treatment before offering euthanasia as an option.
Yeah that's what I'm most curious about: is suicidal ideation a symptom OF severe depression, or is it more of a rational, lucid desire BASED on how awful it is to live with severe depression? Depressed/traumatized people who are like "Why do I keep having thoughts and desires to kill myself?? It doesn't make sense!" probably should be targeted with treatment, because the ideation is clearly a delusional symptom of the illness. But those who are like "I'm constantly sad, numb, stuck in negative thoughts, have no joy or interest or passion or motivation or hope anymore, and none of the treatments have helped. I'd rather die than keep living like this for the rest of my days" -- those people should be given this freedom to choose death.
@@Dwafiz Interesting view, but I don't see the point. Why not just unilaterally give everyone the right to euthanasia instead of barring them based on hard-to-measure or abitrary logic? I don't think, given the chance, that most would go through with it as they would reconsider and postpone their decision.
Sure. You just have to be careful that you don't make the hoops too much to jump through. Like republicans with abortion, at a certain point you're not actually trying to help by making a woman sit down with a doctor and have the doctor try to talk her out of abortion. You're just trying to limit abortions because you don't like abortions, not because you're actually trying to do what is best for someone.
Really, our society needs to address the things that cause people to want to kill themselves. The capitalist rat race in this country is very depressing. 90% of the population is not really allowed to have any meaning to their lives aside from supporting the system of wealth so that a few people can live in extravagance.
If we're willing to provide for someone's basic needs such as food, shelter, and medical care, after we've been willing to go that far to support them, then I think we can have a conversation about how they "owe" us the responsibility to consider options other than suicide. But as long as we've got this "you're on your own" mentality about everything, nobody owes us anything. If we don't provide anything, they don't owe us anything, and that includes their life. Their life should be theirs to do with as they please. They don't even "owe" us the time to listen to us trying to talk them into living until we're willing to provide them with free mental health counselling.
I was hospitalized for depression once, and afterwards I went and got a copy of my records from the hospital. I remember that the doctor wrote in my file that the hospitalization would only make my depression worse, since the medical bill was only going to add to my problems and make my situation more dire and depressing. That didn't stop them from charging me $18,000 dollars for my stay, though.
Lol. "Given" treatment like psych treatment is free and not a business to make money. First society has to actually value human life and human dignity more than the almighty dollar. Never gonna happen.
I agree but unfortunately treatment is gatekept. I have friends who have endured so much pain because they cannot afford a doctor who cares to treat them properly. I can afford to pay for slightly better treatment but it’s only marginally better at the cost of hundreds of dollars every two months. I don’t blame anyone who is suffering greater than me who, at this present lack of good mental health and access to it, would rather die.
The best times of my life were between '04 and '05. Now that they're gone and the people I looked up to aren't in my life anymore, I can't find a reason to continue. It's hard, man.
We should never legalize suicide, ever.
It will discourage people from killing themselves outside of a medical setting and will get people to be more open about when they are suicidal, and for those who can't be helped they deserve to make that choice to exist for themselves
Nope society shouldn't send signals to a suicidal person it's ok to kill themselves, it'll lessen the gravity of doing so. If you allow for something legally or socially, people are gonna do it more, and if something's normalized people are gonna care less about it. That's just goes for human behavior in general.
Also if you have people who's job is to assist suicide, you've created an incentive sturcture for it to keep happening and a class of people where assiting suicide will just be another day at the office.
The issue is what it it becomes a systematic answer to life struggles, and assisted suicide makes suicides in general go through the roof. I guess we will see based on what the stats say out of places like Switzerland
@@maisa5943 Suicide rates in Switzerland are considerably lower than they are in the US. And assisted suicide has been legal there for long enough we don't need to wait for stats to gauge the effects.
Imagine thinking someone else shouldn't have the right to die on their own terms.
What if it was your teenager?
@@shelleycline3542 I'm sorry, I thought it was pretty obvious that I wasn't including the age group that we've collectively decided isn't capable of making life-changing decisions.
with our Healthcare system, gun policies, criminal justice systems, etc we've already sent the message that our is not important
Here in the Netherlands euthenasia has been legal for a few decades now but can be a difficult and lengthy procedure, not something that can be decided on a whim. It's about the same in Belgium. Basic rule is that there has to be needless physical or mental suffering without any prospect of possible improvement in the future. Several doctors will get involved, the family is consulted, forms have to be filled out, etc. Basically you are preventing people from needless suffering untill they die of old age, which would be very cruel. Last year 7,666 euthenasia requests were granted, on a total population of over 17 million that is about 0.04%. If your government provides good healthcare and takes good care of it's citizens there is no need to be afraid that it will become a high percentage.
If someone doesn't wanna be here it's their choice not to be here anymore. It feels completely wrong to me to try to keep someone here who thinks life is basically hell.
Are you one of those people who would not talk a person off a ledge but just keep walking right on by? There is nothing authoritarian in trying to prevent damaged individuals from hurting themselves, in fact as a society we owe it to these people.
Krystal was saying “maybe she should have been kept alive if she has kids.” So a woman’s life is more valuable when she’s a mother? And we are to just place our trust in doctors to make these kinds of moral calculations? There are many problems with this line of thinking. It’s not as clear cut as many pretend and I think Kyle’s take here shows maturity
@@jabrokneetoeknee6448 Never said I wouldn't try to talk somebody out of it, just that it shouldn't be illegal. As in law. Sure if your friend's depressed you should try to make them feel better. And yeah if somebody has kids it obviously has a deeper dimension..... although at the same time forcing a suicidally depressed parent to raise kids probably wouldn't result in a particularly good outcome either.
@@darkpark6531 But talking someone down from a ledge would be “trying to keep someone here who thinks their life is hell.” And I don’t see anything wrong with that. And the law in question is “physician assisted,” which involves an outside party, a doctor, in the subject’s death… not just the subject themself. So an even more appropriate analogy would be a depressed person holding a needle full of fentanyl asking for your assistance. I think in many cases, it OUGHT to be illegal to “help” a mentally distressed person in this way. It’s not correct to frame this issue as purely one of personal liberty… there’s a lot of other ethical considerations here. That’s all I’m saying
@@jabrokneetoeknee6448 Obviously I wasn't referring to 'talking someone down from a ledge'. I'm talking about physician-assisted suicide. The key thing to diagnose with a suicidal person is whether they're experiencing ideation or intent. Most of the time it's ideation and any psychiatrist worth their salt will be able to see that.
I asked for physician assisted suicide (for severe chronic pain that they refused to treat), and was denied because my condition was not fatal on its own (nevermind that I had to decide to not kill myself each and every day, then, as I had had to every every single day for 3 or so years prior to that... before I finally asked for my own death).
The doctor and her assistant searched for weeks for a place that would kill me (all the white refusing to adequately medicate my severe chronic pain, even with a treatment recommendation for methadone by their own medical group's pain experts).
Finally, I was told that I could not get the assistance I wanted unless my condition was fatal on its own.
She was the 20th doctor in a row, then, during the 'opioid epidemic', to refuse me adequate medication to allow me to not want to die.
This despite decades of exemplary history as a pain management patient, and despite a treatment recommendation from pain experts that no one would pay attention to or administer.
Doctors are cowardly pieces of shit to refuse treatment like that - to torture a person into asking for their own death! - just to cover their own asses.
Her body, her choice. I'd rather have this than walking in on someone hanging from the ceiling.
It's their own life.
They can do with it as they please.
Just don't physically hurt anyone else on your way out.
What about mentally hurting people on the way out? How does the phenomena of suicide contagion factor into this?
The Netherlands is the first country that legalized Euthanasia - we also can have psychological (depending on the definition) we had people with dementia (brain and psychology) that had Euthanasia. It is not that easy - you can't do it willy-nilly. Doctors often get legally viewed. Plenty of doctors even if the papers are signed correctly by the persons wanting it - hesitate. There are guidelines they have to follow!
Euthanasia for psychological reasons is not easy: there are guidelines. She had medication, she had multiple suicide attempts. It was her choice.
What if these Americans did it? Less overpopulation. They already attempt them but fail.
You should learn more - there are so many stories of people who attempted suicides and fail. And their lives are worse off after failing. Attempting it over and over.
I think this is a good thing.
The Netherlands and Weed - we could not legalize it - we tolerated it - because of national pressures. Drug tourism, etc. But also, here - we are ahead compared to USA - progressively speaking.
Same sex marriage The Netherland was the first modern nation that legalized it.
My father suffered for seven years with Alzheimer's , there is no way in hel l he would have wanted him or us to go through that, and said things like "going for a looking swim" but the disease takes that power of choice away from him. I have supported assisted dying ever since.
This is just sad... I am left speechless. The girl deserved more love and happiness in her life !!😔
@@aandreya " Deadwish occures, when the wish of knowing what will happen next, disappears. "
You can't even spell, let alone make a valid claim supported by empirical data. Stop making things up
@@aandreya So when does this Deadwish start for me ? And the only Deadwish I know is a 2018 American vigilante action thriller. I can't seem to find deadwish anywhere. Can you link a citation ? thanks.
@@aandreya "Deadwish occures, when the wish of knowing what will happen next, disappears"
Are you some sort of religious nut ?
She is not longer suffering, it was the only path she felt she had to get there.
@@sharper68 Furthermore ... People in our society that are meant to evaluate people to avoid clear "mistakes" caused by definitive & simple side effects from some other issue ... have indeed evaluated her so what else is there left to say ...
So she was feeling this way since she was 17. Sad that she was so young and felt no other options were available to her.
And your point is?
For some people that would be 17 years too many.
Better to let them check out early than to live for decades waiting to die, being forces to endure their suffering against their will
@@IaMaPh1991 by default, we'll all die in the end
Some die young, some day late (old age)
Others die all of a sudden without warning
In this case, she wanted to die early
Though she has potential to do more in her life, but sadly chose opposite
In a religious perspective, she shouldn't have died early and strive to live longer through prayer then finding her purpose in life through soul/career searching
Where she'll be useful to society
It's sad she chose that path, wishing that tragic event never occured to her but it happened unfortunately
All we can do is to prevent these events like terror acts to occur so it won't create domino effects down to a personal level
@@jmvpams1380 Many people don’t feel they have a purpose and life is almost entirely suffering without end. Medication, prayer, therapy don’t always help.
Every case of euthanasia for psychological reasons should be sad, but the blame should be on society at large for failing someone so much.
Cycles of trauma. Fix the cycle, fix society.
As someone who lives with depression I’m completely with Krystal. I’m “lucky” that my depression has not been worse than passive suicidal ideation. I know people who live every day suffering and sometimes the way to empower yourself is to take control and end it. I can’t stand paternalism for depressed folks.
For me being able to have power over your own live is the most fundamental freedom. If you cannot choose to tap out, what can you choose? I dont want to imprison people in their own bodies.
I hate the break it to kyle, but the impression that life isnt valuable is already well and eagerly sent in the united states.
Bodily autonomy is the emptiest of slogans if it doesn't include the right to die. Restrictions on that right are an abomination.
Agreed 200%
How far does that go? If you caught a friend of yours trying to commit, would you try to save them?
There is a sliding scale from never ever, all the way to willy nilly. Where would you draw a line, or where are the borders of your grey areas if you aren't sure.
I'm curious since I'm quite against allowing people to consent to taking their own life. I would make exceptions for late stage terminal illness, or the very old and immobile.
Depression is a disease, but it is not a terminal one. Most people recover from it. It is in fact a mental illness, and mental illnesses by their definition cloud a person's judgement or perceptions when they are suffering from them. I think it is more accurate to define a physically healthy person who wants to end their own life as 'not of sound mind' and therefore that would remove their right to do so.
You probably disagree given your comment, hence I'm asking what you think.
@@toggerz7487 See my separate comment below about abortion.
"to define a physically healthy person who wants to end their own life as 'not of sound mind' and therefore that would remove their right to do so."
But that's only to beg the question by medicalizing what may be a perfectly reasonable distaste for life. An obviously sane, lucid person can find that life is bleak and not worth living. If anything, given the hideousness of so many lives, the problem can be turned inside out: Why is it that great multitudes don't end their lives every day? Of course the answer isn't far to seek. The reason people endure unrelentingly bleak lives is that their survival instinct (ie fear) overrides the unpleasantness of their existence. But what if there are some people in whom that instinctual fear happens to be weak, just as there are some who have weak sexual instincts, or a weak/nonexistent inclination to tribalism? Are they to be regarded as mentally incompetent as a matter of definitional fiat?
To make things concrete, consider 3 cases chronicled in youtube documentaries about euthanasia in Belgium. All were granted the right to a peaceful and dignified death:
1) A healthy 80-yr-old woman who lives in a nursing home finds that she is desolate because her daughter, the only person whom she loved, has been killed in a car crash. She is the picture of mental stability. She just doesn't like being alive anymore.
2)An otherwise healthy middle-aged guy who dearly loves his wife and kids, and who used to love managing his farm until his medical condition forced him to give it up, has recurring headaches so ferocious that he wants to end his life if medical treatment continues to be unavailing. The pain caused by these headaches throws him into convulsions of agony. He has been under specialist care for an extended period and nothing has helped. He's so attached to life that he wants to try experimental surgery. If it doesn't work, he says he'll probably opt for the painless death the state has offered him.
3)A woman in her 20s has had unbearable, recurring, intractable depression for many years. Contrary to what you write, her judgement is anything but clouded, as her condition is episodic. Even in her non-depressed intervals, she feels that the mental suffering of her episodes is so intense that it makes her life not worth living. She has been examined by a board of psychiatrists and psychologists who've concluded that she's suffered greatly for years despite having tried every treatment modern medicine has to offer. Her mother, who appears to be caring and devoted, says through her tears that, although broken-hearted, she supports her daughter's decision.
In a way, by citing these actual cases of grievous suffering, I may have conceded too much to the opposition. My view is that, except in very rare, easily detectable cases of obviously temporary depression, a person has an inviolable right to decide what happens to his body provided there's no harm to others. So I'll make up a fourth example. A guy has a dreary life. He's not hungry. He has no terrible afflictions. But like so many millions, he intensely dislikes his job and doesn't have any realistic prospects of finding one that will interest him. In fact, he dislikes the idea of working for a living, since for him, all work is drudgery. He doesn't care much for his wife or kids etc etc The point is that he's not suffering horrendously. It's only that for years, he's been mired in an what Stevens called 'the malady of the quotidien'. The utter drabness of his existence disgusts him. That's all. No melodrama. No ghastly ailments. Just a guy who doesn't like being alive. Now, why is it, exactly, that the state can remove his most fundamental right -- the right to control his own destiny by opting to end an existence he finds repugnant? A crucial point to keep in mind, in this and every other case, is that this guy never consented to his own birth. He was thrust into life be 2 other people without having any say in the matter. Why is it, then, that he must continue to endure an undesired life which others' chose to impose on him?
@@toggerz7487 If a friend of mine was making that decision, I would most likely try to get them help and persuade them to not do it, but ultimately it is their decision.
Making suicide illegal is ridiculously stupid, if people want to die, let them die. Are you gonna force people to live in a shitty world?
Making it legal is rediculously stupid.
It seems like someone who wants to do something wrong but wants others to approve of it so he doesn't feel guilty.
@@peasant7214 So by making it illegal, are you gonna toss the corpse in jail?
@@mattakudesu No.
Edit: the point is to give them incentive to strive for better future.
In canada it’s becoming a real problem that doctors have an incentive to offer assisted suicide to save the system money
That's conservative politics for you.
@@FNLNFNLN Isn't Canada pretty liberal?
@@princea5886 it is we are run by a liberal government dude just thinks everything stupid is automatically conservative
Killing people with mental illness over helping them. Sick world
No that's literally pro-life propaganda. The right to die is a human right and some people want to end their suffering. Deal with it and stop being a regressive. Thanks!
dude… this is so heavy. makes me want to cry. God bless her soul. idk if im in favor of doctor assisted death, even though ive been in places mentally before where it sounded not half bad.
This is a particularly hard concept to process for us empathetic individuals. I understand why, definitely...but you really want someone to live and enjoy their one precious life.
I have Chornic pain from my TMJ disease. I have 7 brothers and sisters and they all hate me. They think I'm pretending or I should just get over it and live a normal life. My dad hates me because I'm weak and I ask for help. All i have is my mother. When she passes I am going to move to one of these countries so I can end my life with dignity instead what I fear will be a horrific event.
Me too and I have spinal stenosis and I have some sort of autoimmune thing and ringing tinitus but dude I can get stoned and still have fun at home even if I can't go out much anymore.
@@thealternative9580 I was able to find a strain that works with my disease instead of making it work like 99% of strains do. My disease is invisible even though it affects almost every bit of my life. I'm so glad cannabis helps you my man. It truly is a gift from the gods.
There's a debate on this? This should only be reserved for terminally ill people. A 23 year old being euthanized for depression makes my skin crawl. The very essence of depression is that you feel like there is no reason to live anymore. Depressed people are not in a state of mind that is conducive to sound decision making. The fact that someone would "assist" in such a decision, and potentially benefit from it monetarily, is extremely insidious.
emotional pay can be just as damaging and exhausting as physical pain. if you've tried to get help, and nothing is working, would you really want to live the rest of your life permanently depressed?
Yes. Euthanasia in all cases. If life constantly consists of more pain than pleasure then end it.
What upsets me most about this story is that psychedelics would likely have helped this girl immensely. Studies show psychedelics administered in a controlled clinical setting are very effective in helping patients process traumatic events. But I doubt such an option was even presented to her because psychedelics aren't legal in Belgium. When society says it would rather put you to death than bend the rules slightly to potentially save you, that most definitely is "the wrong message".
Wow did not expect them to take the stances they took. I thought it would be flipped- Kyle defending and Krystal opposing
Canada just passed something allowing assisted suicide for personality disorders like BPD. As someone with BPD I completely support it and I want it for myself. I completely agree with Krystal that it should only be if someone doesn't have kids. The only time suicide is selfish is if you are a parent.
This literally isn’t even a debate. If someone doesn’t want to be here then you don’t have the right to tell them they HAVE to be… think about how ridiculous that is… if someone wants to commit suicide then that’s their choice. PERIOD. If you think otherwise than you’re no better than the people forcing women to have babies
It doesn’t matter the reason, if a person truly doesn’t want to live it’s there choice. My only criteria is age. You can’t stop someone from killing themself.
She is 23 how the fuck would she know what she really wants?
“Come here at 3:30 and you’re good!”😂💀💀
The reason I support this is because when people take their lives themselves it can be very traumatizing and painful for the individual and those around them. I do think they should exhaust every method of trying to help the person including trying to help them make meaningful romantic and non-romantic relationships and not just load em up with pills. In Krystal's example would she prefer if the kids find mommy passed away in some gruesome way? Or even if they OD with pills or something they still have to discover them. I am very depressed, but for some reason I haven't considered suicide in a very long time. One day I just realized that if I've endured all this mental anguish why would I end my life at the worst point? I'd rather have hope that one day it'll turn around and enduring that pain will have been worth something. I also wonder if this person was really only triggered by this ISIS attack or if there were other issues and that was just the easiest thing to blame. I'm sure there were other witnesses that didn't feel the need to try to take their own life.
Yes, that comment on the kids was so asinine. Like no, sorry, why should a person in that much suffering be forced to stay alive for anyone? If you don't care about all her other loved ones being hurt, then it should go for everyone, because it's about that person's bodily autonomy. I still feel it's so tragic that a 23-year-old would feel so much pain she didn't see any other way out, but in principle, it should be allowed, with strict regulation.
And of course everyone reacts differently to the same traumatic situation based on their history, there is no contradiction there. The sum of all her life experiences added up in a way that made this particular event insurmountable for her nervous system. Doesn't change the fact that she got to the point she got to, which was unbearable for her.
I have borderline personality
Disorder and honestly I'm glad we don't have that relaxed of euthanasia laws in California. There are times where I fall in such a deep depression that I do want to die but I'm glad that I don't end up killing myself but if it was that easy to get euthanized I probably would and I would have left a lot of hurt people behind. Even as an anarchist I wouldn't go that far when it comes to legal euthanasia. We are opening up at Pandora's Box at that point. It will be more common to kill yourself than to seek help.
23 .. absolutely sad
The only sad thing is that it was 23 years too many.
Had she never have been born, she would have never suffered to the point of choosing suicide in the first place.
That is so depressing…
Not really
Almost as depressing as Kyle's haircut
@Iphoneizking you are pro -death.
"She was on like 18 different drugs, it ain't workin' lets just kill her. lol" - Krystal "euthanasia" Ball
She could have been helped… no one is “beyond help”… this is just sad… she didn’t get the help she needed, clearly… she had every right to want to die, but she could have been helped… time really can help, it’s just so sad to hear she gave up…
do you have any empirical evidence that no one is beyond help. Or are you basing your policy opinion about regulating a persons private decisions on nothing but a wild guess?
@@Ockerlord What the f***?? What kind of response even is this? I have to find scientific proof to PROVE to you that we shouldn’t give up on one another?? Where is your humanity?? We are people! We are suppose to be there for one another and NEVER give up on each other! We are suppose to be there to help one another, NOT KILL EACH OTHER! Jesus Christ. They tried 20 medications for depression, and spent six years helping her, and then just gave up. They gave up. Before her brain had even fully developed, they listened to the wishes of a 23-year-old who was mentally ill, and they gave up. When someone is depressed or traumatized, OF COURSE they want to die, but that doesn’t mean we just give up on them… “We tried twenty things for six years; we tried ‘eeeverrryything.’ Let’s just give up and let her kill herself.” That’s what those people who were suppose to help her decided. There’s a way she could have been helped, the brain has neuro plasticity. We should help those that are suffering, retrain their minds, work with them, not KILL them. Not allow them to kill themselves! How barbaric. With your way of thinking, so many people would be dead right now that were helped. So many.
I find it hard to believe a physically healthy 23yo couldn’t kill themselves twice - and the fact that they tried to but didn’t leads me to believe that some part of themselves didn’t want to. Why would the state even have to get involved in this?
Hi, I'm the proverbial hard-core libertarian and I believe that any adult has an absolute right to commit suicide. "Assisted suicide" is another matter, though. It's a euphemism, of course; what it actually means is that someone else is killing you, which is generally considered murder, except when it's not. And in this case, there is huge difference between physical and emotional ailments.
The difference is that modern medical science is capable of predicting that someone has no reasonable chance of recovery from constant physical pain or from a debilitating disease, and so for a physician to euthanize such a patient is a commendable act of compassion. On the other hand, modern psychiatry is not capable of predicting that someone has no reasonable chance of recovering from depression. And you cannot exhaust all treatment possibilities for depression, because one of the treatments is time.
My conclusion is that if this woman truly feels hopeless, she has every right to end her life, but no doctor has the right to do it for her.
I don’t think that we understand what mental health issues can physically feel like. I certainly didn’t until it happened to me. If someone had depression or anxiety I believed they just had to change their thoughts “think happy thoughts” and they would get better. Turns out it’s completely impossible to change that feeling, not by thinking differently and for some not even with most medications. For me it comes and goes on its own. If it was there constantly, I wouldn’t be here. The doctors have told me that they don’t know exactly HOW any of the medicines for mental health work. It does feel like my brain is raw, a constant nails too a chalk board feeling inside my head. Personally I think it’s related to my demyelinating disease, but because it gets worse with stress, my neurologist said it’s a psychological issue.. Psychiatrists give medication without even measuring anything other than what you tell them. It would be like giving a heart patient medication and just asking them if they feel better. I don’t blame them, I don’t think there is a way for them to look at what is actually physically happening inside your brain. But if they could then they would probably treat you as a patient who is suffering from (and did everything they could for) a brain tumor. Then people would be more sympathetic to that person and not blame them for wanting that feeling too end - even if it meant leaving kids behind.
Choose life! From one depressed person to another, I know the tunnel can get dark but always move forward! We were born to live. Take pleasure in the simple things and love one another.
Life is ultimately worthless. The only thing that is valued is what you can do for others. Outside of that, you are correct. No one cares.
The ultimate definition of freedom is being able to make this decision. And all the laws in the world cannot stop the final outcome. No reason to allow any other person make it or not.
I don't think anyone should be forced to continue living, because no one agreed to come into the world in the first place. The idea that suicide would harm the idea of "life is precious" doesn't seem reasonable; if you have problems, people don't seem to care very much, the government doesn't care, your employer doesn't care. At least it's that way in the US. Where's the preciousness for someone struggling?
I agree with them that a person with kids probably has a responsibility to stay alive.
I’m sorry that I don’t know for sure if this is true or not, but two people have told me recently, here in Canada, that the government (or doctors?) has been allowing people who are on ODSP disability to have Dr. assisted suicide for the reason of “poverty”! People on ODSP in Ontario only get $980 per month subsidy! In Toronto, and most of Ontario, you cannot even rent a bedroom for that price. Granted, since they’re on ODSP, they are also disabled, but the idea is that they’re not disabled enough to qualify for euthanasia, but because of their poverty they’re being allowed it! Sorry I haven’t gone and researched to see if it’s true, but, and I hate to say this, a lot of times things pass under the radar and aren’t necessarily law, so I don’t expect to see it in black-and-white. In any case, as soon as Canada started discussing legalized euthanasia, I was against it, but only because I thought and I still think it’s a slippery slope! It was a lonely position to take because it’s mostly right wing and/or Christians who tend to be against it. But an extreme majority of the population in Canada is for it! It’s scary thinking Of where it can lead. How often will nurses or doctors be quietly telling a patient that they should unburden their families and taxpayers and off themselves?!
Nobody should suffer. Physician assisted suicide is legal in 10 states.
Who cares!? Why should I care because one woman ended her life?
Assisted suicide may be less traumatic for a person's loved ones than a loved one finding a hanging body in the bedroom. They may get to talk it out at least and get affairs in order. Perhaps find a way to determine if they're suicidally depressed before Killin em...maybe set it up so they have to push the kill button themselves if they're ready to go so the Dr doesn't have to carry that guilt.
@Dan Reiser This is very true, and mental health in particular should disqualify you from making that choice, because by definition if someone is mentally Ill how do they really have the mental reasoning to make a right choice? A perfect example of this was my dad, he was very sick in the hospital from heart failure, he hadn't slept in 4 days, he got to the point where he completely gave up, said he wanted to die and didn't want treatment anymore. My sister immediately jumped on the side of him, as if that was his "choice" and we should respect it. I got pretty angry, pointing out that he was delirious, and was in no mental state to make such a choice in the first place. Lo and behold he finally slept and didn't want to die the next day..
How does a poor person in the United States who is diagnosed depressed afford to pay for drugs to fix their depression?
They can't.
Unless they have Medicaid.
It’s legal in Oregon, but doesn’t actually happen often. Edit: only for terminal illness.
This one is very different, My mother just used oregon's Death with dignity law this last summer. She was riddled with cancer and suffering greatly. Likely only a month to live either way. Very different then a 23 year old with there whole life ahead of them. Everyone has bad times, some people have real bad times. But as long as you have a future it can get better. Esp at 23.
@@AndyPrimeOneim very supportive if you have something debilitating like terminal cancer and it's just the choice of should this person be a guinea pig or die as they want to. In this case it honestly seems like she could've done a lot more in her life and had choices. The thing I'd couldn't someone convince a perfectly healthy person physically and mentally be convince to come to them for suicide. Can't a normally lonely person be persuaded in a heat of the moment to go through and halfway towards death you suddenly regret like most suicide attempts.
Barely legal
I knew a guy that chose this. He suffered from ALS, and exhausted all other options.
@Andy Prime are you able to say that when you're not in their shoes?
"Would she come to regret that?"
I'm gonna say no
Id rather die in a lab than risk someone finding me and being traumatized for life. I dont think anyone should be made to suffer. The world sucks and I can't blame anyone for not wanting to be in it.
I think it boils down to "my body, my choice".
We shouldn't impose life on those who don't want it.
It's not that simple. Even when euthanasia is illegal, it happens by people breaking the law. That's how it should be: illegal and available, precisely to avoid this ridiculous situation of a healthy 23 year old killing herself with state sanction. The wink and the nod method is the correct method.
@@annaclarafenyo8185 who in the hell are you to tell a 23-year-old that is suffering immensely like this woman was that it's ridiculous for her to consider suicide? You're not the one doing the suffering, she is! You are in no position to tell her that she must continue suffering.
@@jamessantell6707 She doesn't have to continue suffering. She can commit suicide by herself, illegally, or with illegal help from her friends. You can't legalize this situation.
@@annaclarafenyo8185 You haven't provided a good reason why it shouldn't be legalized.
Sure, healthy people may kill themselves as a result but how many unhealthy people are needlessly suffering right now?
Don't they deserve peace if all other options are exhausted? And this poor woman was suffering.
There are people that are physically healthy that are mentally unhealthy, and that's important to consider, too.
We don't have the knowledge to determine what she should have done, nor do we have the right.
@@MercerVerse because you shouldn't allow mentally ill people to kill themselves. My God we going to kill ourselves off before it's said and done.
It’s very sad that this 23-year-old young woman feel like she couldn’t go on. The problem I have with this concept is in the United States where really profit driven and I’m afraid some tragedies would occur in the name of someone getting paid
Even in the public sector, if you have people who's job is to assist suicide, then there's incentive sturcture for it to keep happening and a class of people where assiting suicide will just be another day at the office.
This is the society that the global elite ruling class want. Naturally, progressives will embrace this as muh free choice while demanding forced vaccinations.
Bingo. I'm in favor of the right to physician assisted suicide, but you have to be damned careful to ensure it isn't abused.
Whenever you mention the persons age in this question and being opposed to the suicide you're implying that you would be OK with it if the person was older. Maybe its the general worship of youth and the hatred of old people in this society. I'm so glad I wasn't trained to hate old people like so many of a certain age seem to. Sounding more like Logan's Run every time I see one of these debates.
It is sad when an 80 something year old person feels they can no longer gone in an excruciating life. It is very sad when a €23 person feels the same. Simply because the younger person had about 50 or 60 more potential years of life. There is a cult of youth. That does not change what I said
Loza Alexander in here! Billboard artist from the song Lets Go Brandon. and now trending on amazon for Trump Dance Remix... make sure you tune in and react to my new trending song Trump Dance remix thats going viral on tic tok..
Having known someone who actually worked as a euthanasia provider in Switzerland, it bears saying that it is a long and regulated process. From signing up to it to the administration of the euthanasia drug it takes maybe a year, if not more, and the person undergoes many consultations during that period etc. This can also be psychologically difficult for those administering the process as they also form a personal relationship to the client, by necessity.
Its hard for me and I hope most people, to imagine experiencing unbearable pain or existence for even a few months.
This is INSANE. Depression can be overcome . This person was not thinking clearly in a depressed state . It’s a freeze state and comes from a trauma . I suffered my whole life until I found rewiring of the brain . Instead of offering her death , offer her HOPE and recovery 😡
My Uncle went through that process in Switzerland after he developed ALS. I was glad he had the option. You make a good point about the physicians involved. Doctors have a hard time losing patients in general, let alone being the ones that deliberately end their lives.
@@mariastefanie5835 This is psychotic shame on Krystal and Kyle supporting this I’ve survived sexual trauma, a car accident, severe bullying, & racism. Why can’t she go to therapy and get help by professionals? This is insane, the liberals aren’t the left let’s make that separation from here on out.
@@mariastefanie5835 with all due respect for what you’ve been through, what makes you think that that wasn’t offered to her as well? According to Krystal, she had tried everything that was available. Nobody offered her death. What the law does is allow people to do so, when their pain is so unbearable that there are no existing therapeutic ways to ease it. They don’t go looking for people to offer that option to. People search it out on their own. Plus, people can commit suicide on their own. They do so all the time in this country with a gun. Suicide is the #1 type of deadly shooting in this country. Its not mass shootings, school shootings, or even police shootings. It’s suicide.
One of the benefits of a legal process would be very similar to legal drug use sites. People who come there can also seek treatment and access resources. In the same way, if people could come in to apply for assisted suicide, that would get them started in a process for help options and treatment. They would have to make it all the way through a screening process and series of efforts to save them before the suicide could be approved. I can see a benefit there, even if it seems crazy, but if people wanting to die can actually legally go somewhere and ask for it, that can get them in touch with the resources they need. If they just do it themselves instead, they never have that touch point to get help.
The problem I have, at least in America, is that mental health care is obscenely expensive so forcing people to go through years of treatment first is impossible. For example one of my medications costs 1300 a month without insurance. Then you have to add on the fact that most mental health medications have severe side effects and withdrawal symptoms and I just can’t support putting people through that if they don’t want to.
As someone who’s battled with wanting to end things since my preteen years, I wish I would just be allowed to do it already. I’ve had years of therapy and medication, and it just doesn’t help.
Legal euthanasia is important because it’s actually fairly hard to end things. Survival instinct is incredibly annoying, and fast/painless methods are usually complicated, expensive, or risk jail time. If you fail, you put loved ones through extra grief and worry, plus you’ll probably get slapped with insane medical bills. Oh and you could also wind up a vegetable in worst case scenarios.
I'm with Kyle on this one. I think believing that depression is eternal is an incredibly defeatist and sad attitude. I understand it's hard to live under those circumstances but to allow something irreversible like this to happen is inhumane and shows a lack of respect for life.
Life isn’t always good. Good things can also be irreversible
So you would force someone to live a nightmare beyond your understanding just because you respect them?
@@Cettywise it’s not even about respecting them, it’s about getting off to their alive body being around
Respect for life involves respect for dearh as well
@@Cettywise Nobody can force them. A person is free to end their life whenever they want unless they're in some kind of constant lockdown and supervision.
I wonder if by "terminal illness", Krystal and/or Kyle would consider Alzheimer's in that category? My personal opinion is "hell yes" after watching what my father has been going through, and by extension, my mother. His entire family died of Alzheimer's and I myself have a statistically much higher chance of developing this horrific disease. My hope is by the time I would get it, we would have options here in the US to checkout on our own terms, with help. Otherwise, I can't see riding that sh*t into the ground. There's just no good reason to do so.
Most everyone who has been affected by a family member with severe cognitive issues that I've talked to has openly acknowledged that they want to end their lives while they can still mostly function because it's so brutal on family/caregivers when the disease gets to a certain point.
100%. My grandmother went through the same thing. Every day she said she wanted to die. When she did, I was so happy for her. She was miserable the last 2yrs of her life.
I think anyone who has experience with Alzheimer's sufferers has similar views. The thought of eventually developing the disease is simply the greatest fear throughout the lives of children or relatives of Alzheimer's sufferers. It seems a no brainer to me that people should be allowed check out with dignity once they cease to be able to function normally and live independently.
The problem with placing Alzheimers in this category is that the person, by definition, is not of sound mind. Unfortunately, that makes it difficult if not impossible for them to make such a profound decision with absolute clarity.
@@dlg5485 Well, that's not the definition. Alzheimer's disease has many levels to it, and someone in the early stages is very different from someone in the late stages. I would just remove this arbitrary requirement altogether and make it a right for that person, regardless of what you think of their mental capability, because it really does not matter on its own.
What infuriates me about this case is that her death was originally planned for march 20th, two days before the anniversary of the Brussels attacks. But due to an anonymous complaint (probably some religious group) at the last moment it got delayed for another 2 months.
She had planned out everything she still wanted to do and the people she still wanted to meet. After she had done all that, saying goodbye to everyone she knew, she was forced to spent another 2 months suffering her illness and ended up blocking herself off from the outside world.
That infuriates you? Grow up. What she did was wrong, no matter her excuse. She could have done it herself if she was truly serious about it. Seeing a terrible thing is no reason to kill yourself though, why was this ever approved?
I agree 1,000,000% with Krystal. Kyle why are people attempting suicide? Not just because they want to, but because living feels so unbearable that they would rather die. Capitalism plays a major role in people's depression/ pain
There is no mind/body dichotomy: it is a self-reflective system with very real permanent scarring throughout. Recovery is a question of contextualization, which is a function of the extrinsic qualities of life.
Would it have been possible for her to recover? The chance was not zero. Is our world conducive for it? I don't believe so. Is the world likely to get worse? Yes. The pain you comprehend is the pain you've experienced and, unfortunately (or fortunately?), it can have a compounding effect with empathy.
I’ve been watching both of y’all for a while, and I just need to say, I love your discussions. You both have honest, we’ll thought out positions. Plus you argue them in good faith and really listen to each other. It’s just super refreshing compared to the garbage discussions I see in other media
I know this probably won’t get read, but I really do appreciate y’all Krystal, Kyle, and Friends cast and crew. Ya’ll have my Substack subscription. ❤
My Grandmother also died of a morphine overdose back in 1978 with the help of a sympathetic doctor. I think it still happens more then most people suspect.
She went gently. Her doctor cared for her.
There is an ethical and deeply moral stance that doctors take agaisnt the law.
They take the hippocratic oath which includes "to do no harm".
The doctor probably saw your grandma suffering and would not allow her to be harmed by that pain any longer so they used the morphine to take the pain from their patent.
@@theodorebear6714 put it perfectly. Many families don't know the realities of what the suffering like the people who actually do the work to care for their sick loved ones. Families like to believe they're doing good by keeping their suffering loved ones alive. Its super selfish.
I don't agree with Kyle, he sounds kinda like a pro life guy on this
If someone wants to kill themselves, do it got them or they might hurt others in the process
Legalize assisted suicide, but make it a process where you have to exhaust every option first
I don't care if people wanna off themselves, let them do it
You can't know what it's like being in someone else's head
I also don't care if someone wants to kill their unborn baby, do what you want, life isn't as precious as you wanna think, we are all just organs of the same being, and if one is failing, cut it out and move on (assuming we have some organ redundancy lol)
If you want to stop living there is very little that can be done to stop it, so the real question is should you be allowed to get medical help in doing so or should you do it yourself in a less humane way.
I don't think you should, for mental health issues.
This is exactly my view too. If somebody has been through all the prescribed treatments, explored unconventional treatments and they remain resolute in wanting to die, then they'll almost certainly find a way to do it.
I would rather the state provide an option of last resort, where the person can die in peaceful surroundings under medical supervision, rather than being alone and terrified jumping in front of an oncoming train in the dead of night.
Neither outcome is pleasant and every effort should be made to help the patient overcome the trauma which is driving them to such desperation, but if things get to a point where everyone feels as though further treatment is no longer effective, don't leave these desperate vulnerable people to face their end alone, respect their decision and the reccomendations of the doctors and help the patient to end their life with dignity.
There's plenty that can be done. I know from experience and years of research. Psychedelics and lucid dreaming are some ways people can work on their problems in healthy ways. This way people are bound to find the root of their issue and how to fix it
@@shadw4701 But what if they don't want to do it? Are you saying we don't have control over our own bodies? What is the moral basis and foundation for such a belief? Is it some bronze age bs book and god/s?
Trying all the psychedelics should be a requirement first 🍄 If they can't help, let them go through with their choice.
PREACH!!!!!!!
To even require for euthanasia means you have to have tried basically every option that is available
@@theonewhoweeps5118 not sure if psychedelics are something can't people consider. They would also need to do it in a medical setting because giving psychadelics to someone on the edge isn't always a great idea .especally by yourself
@@somethingginterestingg4275 treatment with psychedelics is rare in Europe (it’s still very much in a research phase) but when it’s done here under guidance of medical professionals
@@somethingginterestingg4275 Anyone that does psychedelics knows they do in fact work in treating mental illnesses. War on Drugs says otherwise.
Being in this existence is overrated. We do that because we have biologically driven, self preservation instincts and we don't really know what's after death, if there's anything at all and that makes and that makes us afraid. We need to get over those things and let people who want off the train early to get off mercifully and with dignity and when they want to.
I believe it was Emperor Constantine that declared suicide a sin. Because life was so hard for the serfs that they were jumping off cliffs to get to heaven and royalty was starving because there weren’t enough serfs to tend to their food needs.
Wait, I thought it was well understood that America doesn't value human life at all. Does anyone really think otherwise?
They care about fetuses, but not babies, children, men nor women. Only fetuses and clump of cells after conception.
Pre-born they will protect you. Pre-school you are f**ked.
Life is also too precious to live in anguish that you cannot control and to live only because someone who has not experienced this tells you that you have to live.
This sounds more like doing something in spite of people telling you that you shouldn't than it is about having "freedom" to do it. Nobody can forbid you in taking your own life, but that doesn't mean that other people should help you in that process.
I've never seen the life is precious argument used like this but you know what you're right. Most people say life is precious so ban physician suicide, but life is precious so why are you going to force someone to suffer longer than they need to?
@@obscureorca going by your logic, is the seller at fault or did they “help” the buyer who ended up killing themselves with the gun they bought?
@@leonxl There are a lot of other uses for a gun, and the most common is actually preserving your own life. So no, it's not the sellers fault that he sells the gun to someone he doesn't know is going to commit suicide. With assisted euthanasia that is the whole purpose, so your logic is totally false.
When severely depressed just waking up and getting up to use the restroom or eat can be exhausting. I'm assuming she didn't have to work a job if she had such severe mental decline and she had housing and food benefits/assistance. In the States if you're this depressed you still have to work to afford outrageous housing costs or fight to get assistance. It's hard to call that living. I'm sad that she felt this was her only way to peace but I'm glad she had the choice. I'm hopeful for the future of mental health care in the world, we've made some good strides in the US in the past 30yrs. We need to take care of each other.
I chuckled when Krystal said, "might she come to regret it?" Umm...
Why umm?
Perhaps she meant like right before they administer it.
@@JoeLancaster dog you can't regret anything when you're dead. You're dead.
@@vinny9868 I assume she was speaking in abstract. Like would she have come to regret a decision had she not made it. Kinda like how some people who attempt suicide but fail, end up regretting making the decision to kill themselves later in life.
Suicides survivors usely regret trying to off them selfs
As doom and gloom as it sounds, the fact that there are govt assisted suicide programs around the world, gives me hope that when I wanna go, I can go with dignity as opposed to being riddled with disease in old age
Well if you actually gave a sh*t about your life, you would live it in a way right now that severely lowered the chances of you being diseased and sick in old age, but you don't really care about that do you?
Choosing how you live your life, or if it should continue facing the circumstances you face, should be 100% someone's right.
As someone who’s suffers from cycles of severe depression and had a parent committed suicide, I agree. I used to resent my biological father for leaving us, but now I understand. I can’t bring myself to do it myself because leaving family behind is HORRIBLE, but if my brother or mother came to me and told me they needed to let go (whether it me cancer or mental illness) and said goodbye, I wouldn’t resent them. I’d understand. I’d let them pass before their life story became a tragedy
@@ApartmentPrepping you’re not alone. There’s so much going off and all of life’s wonders fade away as the days go by. The taste of food becomes subtle. “Happiness” synapses start to weaken. Traveling becomes a burden. Every day that we awaken goes from a gift to a curse. But just know that this is still something special, the probability of us being alive at this given time is one in trillions. Try to raw dog life, it’ll end in a very short amount of time. Embrace the suck.
I think that’s a little reckless and naive that a lot of people attempt suicide and a lot of them multiple times and actually turn their life around so are we letting people give in to temporary downs ?? I think there should be a age limit and also all other options have been tried and in rational time table.
Don't know that's really true. I wanted to die all last year. I don't anymore. 23 year olds are very volatile. Further, there were likely a LOT of people who were hurt by her death. Murder hurts everyone around the person who dies. Suicide hurts many people very badly, not just the one who died.
@@ApartmentPrepping Most people don't understand what the life trajectory can look like for someone with severe mental illness. Your opinion is controversial but I have to agree given what I'm experiencing in my own life. I live with severe bipolar disorder that has only gotten worse with time, and no amount of medication has made a substantial difference. I think if legal assisted suicide was more common, it would lead to less people doing it in a spur of the moment decision, all alone with nobody to talk to because they know the subject is simply unapproachable.
None of us had a say in our creation. We're all thrown into this forced fight for survival. Maybe not all wish to partake for the long haul. For that reason alone, everyone should be able to dictate the pace of their life/death. Doctors are uncomfortable by it? Find a new profession. Helping people doesn't necessitate forcing your world view onto someone. YOU like living? Good for YOU. It's ME we're talking about here.
Thank you American Israeli and Saudi government for making isis
I’ve been struggling with mental illness my entire life. I’m 28 now and it’s only gotten worse. I’m at a low where I’ve been thinking about committing suicide because I’ve tried everything and I haven’t been able to get better. It’s truly hard to describe what it’s like to live a life where you feel like you live in your own personal hell and your body and mind is against you. And people telling me I’m not alone doesn’t help. Very few things keep me around but I think the fact that I don’t have an easy access to end my life in a painless way is one of them. I completely understand the want to end ones life. I think we should we all have that choice
I don’t have social media. I take daily walks and I don’t masterbate and watch porn. I have PTSD , depersonalization/derealization and severe depression. I don’t feel connected to myself or the world around me because of it. Regular therapy isn’t helpful and neither is the things u suggested as I tried them already as their common suggestions. I just think my cocktail of mental illness makes it harder to “fix” with simple stuff like that. I can’t even go out with friends and family without having a panic attack and shutting down. But thank you anyways for your reply and suggestions. Hope you’re doing well
@lessago I know you mean well but these types of responds really minimize the state in which mental illness leaves us in
@@Emmiiii267 Your kindness came through in your reply. You took care to explain yourself well and expressed gratitude at the end. It sounds like you face difficult challenges. All the best.
Have you tried DMT??
Fuckin' capitalism. I swear to God... !!
Over a certain period of time in my life, the only reason I didn’t follow through was out of the fear that I wouldn’t be successful & then bound to a nursing home, essentially a vegetable from injuring myself.
Do I still have the desire now? No. Do I regret feeling that way or scared about thinking how close I was? Absolutely not.
The pain and isolation is not something I’d wish on worst enemy. This is 1000% a good idea.
I’m 28 and I feel that way now. I’ve suffered with mental illness since I was a child and it’s only gotten worse. The Only thing that has stopped me is not finding A way of doing it fast and painlessly. I can’t imagine getting over this feeling since I’ve felt it my whole life but I’m happy to hear that you don’t feel that way anymore. Hope it keeps getting bette for you and thank you for sharing your story ❤
@@Emmiiii267 all my love to you Emily. I’m so sorry this is happening to you.
@@Emmiiii267 if I’m allowed to share a little more…while life/my MH now is far from perfect, the silver lining that comes from being so low, you basically lose your fear of death, or better to say your attachment to life and worldly things. They lose importance as your perspective shifts. Especially if you’re a trauma survivor, with the right support and path forward of you’re own choosing (I say with time, support and action), you begin to get a true sense of your own power. And if you’re detached from those two inherent human weaknesses (fear and desire) it puts you in a pretty good position to tackle life’s challenges.
One way or another… life is messy. For example, cancer doesn’t care about your plans, family or ideals. Suicide is a personal choice and if it is destigmatized and people are thinking about it, they may feel comfortable talking about their problems knowing they won’t get locked up and that may change their mind. And to Kyle’s concern of life being seen as unimportant, I think watching the news it is apparent every day that that is the case. We are told how precious life is and we see people are treated like trash
Saving a sober suicidal adult's life against their will is as evil and inconsiderate as killing a person who wants to live.
What
@@No1SamSmithHater Saving a sober suicidal adult's life against their will is as evil and inconsiderate as k1ll1ng a person who wants to live.
@@bigoltits1880
You are crazy.
@@sufficientmagister9061 You are cruel.
As a belgian who's familiar with the euthanasia law I am annoyed by how uninformed this debate was. Basically all questions and concerns you guys had could be answered. You should look into the exact provisions that are in the law and into this womans life and mental health problems. The law is very clear and the regulations are quite strict. For 20 years now the law hasn't changed much and to my knowledge there haven't been maior issues. To answer Kyle's concern, not everyone that is depressed and suicidal can get euthanasia. The illness needs to be incurable and a medical expert at this ilness must decide if that is the case. To give an answer to Krystal's concern: someone who suffers from severe mental illness and has unbearable suffering (both are required) is likeky unable to care for children. Also an acception would be discriminatory against women who still are most often caregivers.
Btw there is an important distinction betweel physician assisted death and euthanasia.
I mean... It's fucking horrible and I hate that this happened but if you are for rights and freedom... This could be a possibility that someone wants this that bad. 😞
No that's when they go to the looney pen.
@@MrDucksBill great, make her suffer even more, that will solve the problem!
@@MrDucksBill Death can be favorable to indefinite detention in a mental facility.
I get that, and I don't understand exactly how bad this woman's situation was, but I think we should consider the psychology behind suicidal behavior. Suicide is typically impulsive; it's a feeling that comes and goes for some people suffering with mental illness, but it can never be reversed once it's done. While I wouldn't want anyone to suffer such intense mental distress with no hope of recovery, do we really want to be a society that gives up on people in these circumstances if there's a chance for their recovery? To be clear, I'm absolutely in favor euthanasia as an available option in the most hopeless circumstances of terminal illness, paralysis, excruciating chronic pain, etc., but I don't know if this is the right trajectory to take if we want to say that we truly value human happiness and wellbeing.
Liberty for liberty's sake isn't a good. That's just a rabbithole to all the worst evils.
It is very arrogant to impose your will on someone who wants to check out. It is not your business to interfere in someone's decision to check out of this hotel. You have no idea what they are feeling and it is their decision. Just like telling an honest citizen living in the ghetto, they can't have a semi-automatic weapon to defend themselves while politicians and the wealthy class have the best security money can buy. You can't have people tell you what to do because they have an idealism that is totally irrelevant to someone else's situation. What tyranny, and despotism to even entertain that you have the right to make it so hard for someone who has already agonized for who knows how long before they came to this point. Philosophically, I may just have a more positive outlook and relaxed attitude toward letting go. Mind your own business. We live in a dystopian wasteland, to begin with, and there are many reasons why someone might not care to continue. My favorite is pro-lifers. Their faux care for the child stops after birth. They do nothing to create a better infrastructure for poor and disenfranchised children in this country born into nightmare landscapes. They even vote against school lunches, daycare assistance, living wages, and affordable healthcare. The bastards even vote to defund PBS and Big Bird.
Good for her to have her choice, when years of treatments do not work then this was her choice. Mental pain is equal to physical pain.
There are rules and it often requires further testing and or treatments.
Mental pain can arguably be worse imo
@@dontforgettolike7127 I'm 28 years old and I've been depressed for around 15 years. Yeah, it's bad and I have other mental conditions on top of that. Can't wait until I can end my life legally via Exit Switzerland here, just need to wait 2 more years.
@@YunoGasai414 please get help
@@YunoGasai414 It is sad that in-spite of all the treatments that for some they do not work. I hope on the next two years you can find some peace and effective treatments.
@@YunoGasai414 what Peter said. Also, stay away from Yuki.
Unfortunately, we live in a world that doesn't provide the appropriate nor sufficient care to those in need. There is only one way to end suffering. Especially if it's a quality of life issue. I've been living with chronic pain and chronic health issues for over 20 years. Recovery is not an option. I'm mentally and emotionally exhausted from dealing with the programs I have to deal with in order to prevent myself from becoming homeless. Millions of us become collateral damage.
I think the area where this becomes troubling is in situations where the patient lacks/loses mental capacity (e.g. as a result of a severe illness) and others (e.g. healthcare professionals, family members, advocates) make the decision on their behalf and arrive at the conclusion that assisted death is in the patient's best interest. Provided there are major restrictions / safeguards around this, I can see a reasonable rationale for having assisted dying be legal, potentially even as far as for people with severe mental illness.
i am 100% in favour of this. if you are willing to jump through all the hoops placed in front of you because you want to die that badly, it is what is. i think you should have the right to do that. they're probably going to do it anyway, in a much more painful way with a lower chance of success if you tell them no.
Is it free?
Euthanasia because you WITNESSED a tragedy but SURVIVED?? She was LUCKY and now her life is a GIFT and taking her own life is a big eff you to all of the people who died. I am an atheist but a small part of me wants to believe the Catholics when they say that suicide death leads to Hell.
@@Zurround brother, no. She was traumatized and probably relived the event thousands of times. After reliving watching dozens of other people die over and over again, she didn't want to go through it anymore. It seems very understandable to me.
@@Zurround That's a pretty fucking disgusting way of looking at the world.
@@Fleezblarp Um... THERAPY?? Maybe even including GROUP therapy for trauma victims? If I had been the euthanasia doctor I would have ONLY given her a drug to cause REGULAR sleep and then when she wakes up I would have a long talk with her to convince her the importance of life. I might even lose my job but some day she would be grateful to me for that.
All forms of maladaptive survival behaviors caused by trauma are trying to serve us in some way I.e protect us from pain. Suicidal ideation is when there are no self soothing mechanisms that can overcome the pain.
This is one of the times we need the collective, community to overcome that part of a persons consciousness that has consumed their perspective both in thought and feeling. Their higher self is in there & community can help people bring that out.
I’m for people having the ability to legally commit suicide as long as society does its job and give them the help they need to start to integrate the traumatized maladaptive behaviors.
It’s the same with drugs. People should have access to all drugs safely but with the idea of helping to guide them toward accessing the higher parts of themselves that have the clarity of mind that addictions don’t serve them.
We have a long way to go in society but I think this solution would provide most benefit to the individual and society at large
Okay let's try this ... Either you are able to give someone the meaning of life back in case they lost it ... or they are able to go as they wish.
Because Im absolutely certain that just like for you Kyle and many others ... Your problem is much more a desire to avoid an undesirable reality for all of us that there does not exist an inherent greater meaning to life ( human existence ).
The trick for everyone is to either be able to accept those conditions and proceed anyway or not.
This sounds like a storyline out of HBO’s The Leftovers, an apocalyptic post rapture drama series. They were undergoing societal collapse and it feels like the real world becomes more and more dystopian daily.