If you level the frets with relief you are removing the relief!! Absolutely correct to level with neck flat. As always there at exceptions to the rules.
I’ve watched a guy called Sam Deeks I think it is who basically uses a diy I think it was called the katana system. Basically it has a truss rod so say your fingerboard relief is 10’000 you set the level to the exact amount of relief as the board and it’s usually done with the strings on. I know he’s taken some significant flack for his none traditional method but he swears by it after hundreds of levels and refrets. I’m not going to say his method is right nor would I say it’s wrong, but I will say it goes against traditional methods. I also see as he is basically using a trussrod with abrasive paper the width is very narrow and I can see how he could easily do more under two strings than the adjacent strings. Therefor that is the issue I see vs a decent beam which does much more in one go on a perfectly flat board. Then run a fret rocker over it after to correct any outstanding problem areas. I tend to take Chris’s side, if a guitar he’s fretted and level and crowned is reported as no action needed on a pleck machine. I would still stick with the traditional methods. Sometimes you just don’t need to re invent the wheel just because you can
I had the same thought. So if you believe in some neck relief THEN you have to fret level in a flat state. If you can't adjust the neck anymore (for whatever reason) you may have to level in a non-flat state.
Yes! What's the point in going to the trouble of creating some relief in the fretboard if you are just going to level the frets afterward? (I'm assuming that by "relief" we mean a tiny gap between string and fret (about fret 8) when caop'ing at fret 1 and holding string down at the highest fret.)
I’m an amateur, so forgive my ignorance, but I thought the idea of relief was to kind of compensate for imperfection and allow the strings to play without buzzing. If you level your frets with the neck perfectly flat, then you should be able to set the guitar up and try to achieve a perfectly flat neck with no relief when the neck is under string tension. You wouldn’t need any relief at that point. Or is there another reason people would want relief? Do they want different spacing between the string and fret at different points on the neck? Does that make a difference in their playing style/technique or something? Again, forgive my ignorance. I’m just trying to learn.
The purpose of relief is to allow space for the strings to vibrate freely along their entire length. Without it, the strings will buzz against the frets at the point on the neck where the first and second harmonics produce maximum displacement.
Chris, I found that most players don't know squat about the mechanics of their instrument. That's why we can make a living keeping their instruments in top playing condition. Luthiers use to trust their eye but now they need all the expensive tools because the tool salesman said so. Hell, for years I used an old credit card to check for a high fret!
I am a tech, not yet a full-blown luthier, and in the last year have gotten heavy into fret work (fortunately with really good results so far). I was considering building or buying the Erlewine Neck Jig thinking it will increase my accuracy specifically in the leveling process; I have been leveling frets by setting the truss rod to a dead flat neck up to now. This video answered a lot of questions for me, and I think I will simply build a table to stabilize the guitar and neck while I work. Right now I rest the neck on a sand bag to stabilize. Thank you for your informative and engaging videos, and thank you for real talk about the many hype and industry induced mysteries surrounding guitar work, and showing us your real-world processes. Awesome Plek story too!
Thanks for the video. I've come to the same conclusion - level while the neck is flat. I have a neck jig, and I still use it, but with a slightly different aim: I first adjust the guitar's neck as straight as possible with the truss rod while the strings are on. Then, strap the guitar into the jig, zero the dials, bring the jack and rods up so they're supporting the neck. Then remove the strings. After the strings are off, there is usually some small adjusting that has to be done with the jack. But it's pretty easy getting the neck back to flat, rather than recreating some curve. I check with a straightedge that the neck is flat. The advantage to having the guitar in the jig while working is that it's super solidly mounted. I have the support rods up against the neck and they hold it flat all along the length. If you do not have the support rods up, you can actually see the dials moving by a few thousandths as you run a sanding block up and down the length of the neck, so I feel it's better to have the neck solidly supported all along. The other thing is that, on an older guitar, having the truss rod in a tightened position is a more accurate representation of the condition of the neck. Sometimes the truss tension does some weird things, like cause slight S curves (as viewed from the side). If you work in the jig, with the truss under tension, you can better compensate for these issues. So, I like working under truss rod tension, but on a flat neck.
Hi Chris, I see your point. The testing after-ward doesn't make a difference - because I think we would always test. But if we level "frets" when the neck is under tension, we take off more metal on some frets than necessary. To level frets while the neck is under tension, is to only use a truss-rod to keep the neck straight. Taking off more material than necessary renders the neck with less life-time. Truss-rods are for setting up necks. If you start with a level (straight) neck, you can work in the fall off if you want things like that to be factored. I prefer your method.
A few years ago A friend and I built 2 neck jigs patterned after the StewMac one for our personal use as hobbyists. I've done refrets and dresses with and without the jig. The jigs we built weren't too difficult to set up and on an expensive guitar I'll use the jig; but while under string tension I keep the neck as flat as it will allow and when finished I'll use the truss rod for any relief. This was a very informative video. Keep up the good work:0)
I loved this video, for the same reason I like your other videos - you go in depth into the reasoning behind your thinking. That's extremely valuable. Too often, guitar youtubers give you their opinions on why something is right or wrong, but they don't explain why, or offer any kind of evidence. In your case, you offer the Plek machine as evidence that leveling the frets with a flat neck is probably the optimal approach.
It is simple for me. The neck should be straight when leveling the frets. If you level the fret that gives the relief you actually play, there will be no relief on the fret even if there is a relief on the neck. This is nonsense, isn't it?
Totally agree Hisashi SASAKI, the neck should be 100% straight when leveling the frets. Not even sure why this question is even asked as related to a full fret leveling procedure. Only reason I could ever imagine you would deviate from the accepted practice would be to remove a bit more fret material from the upper frets to possibly induce a "fall-off" with the upper frets having a touch more material removed to prevent "fretting-out" on the higher notes. The relief induced into the neck through the truss rod for normal playing setup maybe isn't as pronounced in the upper frets, thus the reason to sometimes using the "falling-off" of the upper frets. I guess I need to watch this video again, and maybe a third time to be clear of it's purpose.
@@jeffbosch1697 Correct, on a single cut guitar the Bass side of the neck is glued in and making contact with the body (as a guess, up to the 14th Fret area). Often times the Truss Rod will only bow towards the end of the neck, but not always, designs differ, however I can't imagine the entire neck bowing. That said, it doesn't take much movement at all (bow) to greatly change how the guitar performs and feels to the Player.
That’s the best question, and I think yes totally flat when leveling. The truss rod can always be adjusted after stringing . Just my take! I’m a self taught Luthier that has apprenticed under a very strict builder that has forgotten more about stringed instruments than most ever know!
Totally agree,99% of the time leveling with a neck flat works perfectly fine, BUT very rarely you get a neck that doesn't behave evenly under string tension. Got a Yamaha BB5000(neck through 24frets) that without string tension, the frets were perfectly leveled. Once I strung it up to pitch , it got a bow between fret 2 and 9 and the rest of the neck was dead straight. Same with a Godin electric. What a headache trying explaining that to the customer. Maybe I should give it some more relief and call it a day. Malfunctioning trussrod? Uneven wood strength? Send it for PLEK treatment? I wouldn't even think of removing the ebony board of the Yamaha to replace the trussrod or add stiffening rods..
hi, interesting point about different neck construction..i was taught to introduce a tiny backbow into the neck with the trussrod then clamp the body to the bench and put a wedge under the headstock.. push the wedge until the neck is straightish, then skim it. this way you replicate string tension and you also have a bit on truss rod for any future backbow problems. another way to replicate string tension is clamp the body to a bench( guitar fully strung and in tune ) gently put a wedge under the headstock and two wedges under the middle of neck , dont push the wedges tight, undo strings and skim..thats a way of replicating string tension without any fancy expensive machines or jigs.. ive worked for two different well known guitar manufactures.. one did it that way and the other did it your way..as you said, the way the neck is put together affects the strenghth and bendabilitity(new word)ha ha of the wood. for instance multilaminated necks.
Lots of people are saying that a neck jig is pointless, but my understanding is the main reason they exist is because some necks will twist / warp slightly under string tension, so using the neck jig means the tops of the frets will be level when the guitar is strung up and under tension (i.e. when it really matters) as opposed to when it's not under tension. As far as I know (I don't own one), you would typically still adjust the truss rod to get the neck as straight as possible before levelling; the only difference would be any small variations in the contour of the fingerboard between "flat and no tension" vs. "flat and tension". In cases where there's a difference between the two, you want to level for the latter as that's how the guitar will be played. Of course, as Chris said, he builds guitars and so knows the necks he is working on are consistent. If you run a repair shop though, that's not always going to be the case.
When he got the phone call about nothing needs doing and that is after posting the guitar where anything in Transit could go wrong and still nothing needs doing is a testimony to his True Craftmanship
I like the KISS method. Keep it simple and take all the rocket science out of it. This is exactly what you are doing with your videos. Thank you for making these videos.
I am 64 now and have been playing bass and guitar since 1972...but I have never done this leveling myself. So I bought a Notched Straightedge for bass...a Maxparts BF-AF16 Fret File...a crowning file I had already, also understring radius gauges - and look forward to it like a little boy! That it is best to do this with an absolutely straight neck, I strongly suspected and now got confirmation. Thanks a lot! 🙂
Some people play hard (I did when I was learning) and can get the buzz. Easy enough to add some relief. And people play every way in between. Most acoustic’s have a bit of relief. Totally agree with your approach. I think the neck jig is good for folks that don’t have your skill set.
Leveling a neck with string tension (a bowed neck) makes no sense to me when your using a straight leveling beam. Personally I get the neck straight as possible and make sure the neck is well supported to prevent any flexing while leveling.
I saw this video many years ago. Then now I really understand what you're talking about. And of course I agree with your point of view on this sensitive subject. After all, it takes some time... I guess. I'm really thank you.
I play with the slightest amount of relief, like .005 feeler gauge, measured with a capo on 1st, fretting the last fret, and depending on the neck length/guitar itself, I measure the action at the 8th or 12th fret. The only reason I do that is because I know for sure it will have next to no impact and it also ensures that it does indeed have no forward bow. For leveling, if I am making a brand new neck, of course I make it completely flat, glue in the frets, press them in with a radius match, and then level them with a beam. For older guitars... I really feel strongly about leveling them with a shorter file/beam as I seldom find an older neck that has maintained perfect straightness over the years, and doing full beam-leveling would probably take too much material away at one side. The most interesting thing I've found is that even with a neck that, on my bench, seems completely warped beyond playability, I have set them up under string tension and they play perfectly lol. For those instances I try to just spot level if there is a fret-out, but full neck leveling seems out of the question unless I'm taking all the frets out and re-surfacing a fretboard.
Thank you, great! This video answers all the questions I had about leveling with the jig and the plek machine. It encourages me to continue levling with an absolutely flat neck.
Excellent video mate I also level the frets with the neck flat then string the guitar up with the gauge of strings that will be used let it sit for a few days play it check again play it some more seems to work very well. I like my neck to be flat even under string tension not every one does some players like a small amount of relief. Love your Chanel mate have good good one!
I like your detail explanation...my thought is level on flat neck the bow would not produce high frets.. biggest issue we have with buzz and such...and u can also adjust truss rod after strings if the bow is significant.. Thanks for giving me the value of your experience.
Kind of like when tuners became widely available. Suddenly, intonation was measurable and of primary importance. Even though people had played, recorded, and made hits with out of tune guitars. I like my neck with no relief. Here's why. If I set the relief about .010 +- before it plays well I will also have to induce fall away beyond the 12th fret. This,I believe, is because at mid neck the guitar is fingering in a trough, which rattles up the neck. Chet fans know he liked .008 relief, but what is less known is he preferred a high action. If that's his recipe, so be it. For me, my recipe is no relief, low action, no fall away. Since I haven't made 60 years worth of wonderful recordings, I doubt anyone would ask for my preferences. The point is, players should find their preference rather than copy something they heard or read about without getting the whole story. Great video.
When I first started learning about guitar setups from books back in the late 80's/early 90's there was even a lot of differing opinions back then on the best setup techniques. Some even suggested having fretboards with built-in relief. I like to just set the neck flat and level that way. It also depends on what condition the fretboard is in too. Personally on relief, I think it depends on how the guitarist plays. If they're a light player, you can probably get away with a straight neck and no relief. If you're the type that likes to bash away (like many rhythm players), then a little relief to counter the string buzz is good. That's how I set all of mine up. But every guitarist is different.
All you say seems very sensible. It seems logical to me to set the neck (well the fretboard surface) to be straight and then level the frets so they are as straight and level as the neck. In fact if the neck/fretboard on a newly built guitar is flat and the frets are properly installed it should hardly be necessary to level the frets at all. I think the argument about levelling under tension is that most necks don't simply curve under string tension but tend to form a S curve. They bow forward between the nut and around the twelfth fret and then rise in a small hump from the twelfth fret to the last fret. I think that, assuming that does happen, the idea is that levelling under tension, with the neck set as straight as possible, allows smoothing out some of that hump. However there are a number of demonstrations of the Plek machine on RUclips that show the neck profile on-screen and I don't remember any of them showing a hump. In any case the hump is supposed to be the result of compressive force along the neck and I don't see how a neck jig, which only bends a neck forwards, is going to simulate that compression. I didn't think there was any mystery about relief - the idea is to approximate the vibrational path of the strings so a lower overall buzz free action can be achieved, than if the neck is dead straight.
[They bow forward between the nut and around the twelfth fret and then rise in a small hump from the twelfth fret to the last fret. ] Yes! And this is what many refer to as the area needing "fall-away". It's a trade-off, and a whole separate topic really.
@@stephensaines7100 I've come back to this video after some time so excuse the delayed comment. I personally don't like the idea of a fall away on an electric guitar. In any case my point was that I have seen the - compression results in an S curve - theory propounded in a few places, and maybe it does happen in some guitars. BUT I have seen several RUclips videos of the PLEK machine mapping the fret board and they NEVER show an S curve. All I have seen is a smooth and simple forward bow under string tension when the truss rod is set for a small amount of relief.
It SEEMS to me that slight relief lets you get lower action with less fret buzz because it ever so slightly changes the angle the string leaves the fret passing over the rest of the frets, but it also seems the lighter you play the less its necessary, harder playing induces a taller/fatter "football" of string vibration. At least that's my perception.
Yea, i agree. I always have a lot of buzzing on my SG without any relief, I need around 8 thousands relief to have low action and no horrendous buzzing, still have a little though, but I can live with that
I agree with your analysis 100%. Most videos exaggerating about guitar set ups. Yet thay talk forever without clear conclusions. Most conclusions ware it "what is your preference" That's telling you they BS forever in their videos. Important as you said, 1. Set neck straight, restring guitar. Tune it up. That will give you some neck relief. Then adjust relief if necessary whatever your preference is. It's simple as that. That's the way i was setting my neck relief for 65 years!.❤️🕊️🌍👌👍👏
Love your videos. So justified and clearly explained. I’d love to know your approach to straightening necks ready for a fret dress, where they won’t straighten properly.
My luthier has the neck dead straight when leveling the frets. He ads a little fallaway at the end of the fretboard. Every guitar he set up for me plays like a dream. I guess there is no more to say. Flat. Deffinetely flat.
The fallaway is there to provide room for the strings to vibrate at the fundamental frequency (first harmonic) for which maximum displacement occurs in the middle of the freely vibrating part of the string. The relief in the neck is there to provide room for vibration at the second and third harmonics which occur 1/3 and 1/4 of the distance from the point where it’s fretted.
I like to level with the neck set as straight as I can get it. Then control the geometry of the playing surface with the truss rod. I like around 8 thousandths of relief. I really enjoy digging in and snapping the strings in the lower area of the neck, and lighten up quite a bit as I move up. I tend to keep my action at around 2mm at the 14th on the sixth, graduating down to 1.5mm on the first.
Thank you Chris. I knew what you said was true but had doubts and thought about building a neck jig. You just saved me SO much time and headaches. Gonna keep leveling the same way as before- deadflat fretboard. Thanks Chris!!!
Even if you want to level the frets under string tension, like on the Erlewine neck jig, you still have to adjust the truss rod for a straight neck. Before the advent of double action truss rods I used to built some relief into my necks. But would adjust them straight for leveling.
That’s the right answer (thank god someone knows his stuff here)!!! The Neck Jig isn’t made to work on bowed necks but it’s made to straighten necks with single action truss rods! Sometimes it’s impossible to straighten a neck with single action truss rod without the strings on, and that’s why this Jig exists!
@@lucarenzi8033 The neck jig simulates the neck under string tension. You adjust the fingers under the neck with the strings tuned up. Then you remove the strings. The truss rod will be pressing the neck back against the fingers. You adjust the peghead jack to get the indicators back to zero. This isn't for getting the neck straight... unless it's straight under string tension. This way you can get the fretboard level under simulated tension.
@@coneyislandguitars Of course the Neck Jig can set the neck in the same "relief" condition as if the strings were on, but what's the point? 99% of the times you work on a neck, you need it to be as straight as possible. Also I have the Dan Erlewine books and every time the Neck Jig is mentioned is for straighten necks that can't go straight by themselves. Another thing to mention is that the Neck Jig can replicate the "headstock traction" of the strings but (as far as I'm aware) not the "compression" applied to the wood of the fingerboard... so it can replicate only half of the neck equation.
@ you need to read up on why Dan invented it. The point is you can level a fretboard with no truss rod or string tension. Then you string it up and you get humps that the rod can’t remove. Wood is an imperfect material. It’s not uniformly dense. That’s the reason he invented the jig. You don’t need it for a new neck that’s being fretted for the first time. It’s for older guitars that developed humps from string tension. I don’t own a neck jig. I haven’t had a need for one. But I’ve met and spent time with Dan back in the 90s and my former building partner studied under him. So from the two of them I’ve heard all about it.
@@coneyislandguitars Things you’re describing are related to the “wood compression” forces I mentioned above… and maybe I’m missing some hidden feature of the Jig here, but simply looking at how the Neck Jig works…it can’t really replicate the “wood compression” forces… it just can’t. It is great to straighten necks and some other things, but if you have a guitar that has humps under string tension you’re just out of luck. The only way you have to work on that neck is with the strings on in full tension. There are good tools out there to work with the strings on… most of them are from the brand RectifyMaster (I’m not related to that brand, just saying it exists)
I agree 100%. Flat necks generally produce very good fret work. A lot of techs only support the headstock end, then they reef on their sanding beam... That grinds a big hump in the frets and can actually make the guitar play worse... A well supported neck is all you need (sand bags, cork, adjustable pins like you have, etc.)
SkyScraper Guitars Yeah, the weight of a leveling beam alone is enough to hog off a lot of fret height fast. Even with 600 grit. No need for elbow grease.
I know this is an older vid, but I'm still going through your backlog as they come up in my recommendations and I agree. I just finished my first complete refret of one of my own personal guitars (I got it used and it had lots of issues and not enough fret left to do a level). When I was done installing the frets I lad it in a neck rest and used a notched straight edge and a light behind it, looking at it from the side to check for spots where the light was coming through the bottom to get it as close to flat on its back and level as I could get it, then methodically did my leveling and it turned out great.
Being a player as well as a builder, I prefer that a neck is as straight as possible during fret leveling, because that is also how I set up the guitars that I play. I have low, low action (1/16" under the high e at the nineteenth fret), super light strings (.008 to .038), do a lot of wide bending, and get no buzzing at all until the frets are quite worn down. My fret leveling tool is a 24" piece of hardrock maple with stick-it sandpaper, and after initial leveling along the length of the neck, all my sanding and polishing is done parallel to the frets. I feel that if I used this long tool to level frets on a bowed neck I would take more metal off the highest and lowest frets, leaving more metal on the frets in the middle. I can't see any advantage that would result from this. Thanks again for your well-considered, low key approach, the antithesis of some guys I will only refer to as "TTG."
In my experience with repairs, yo DO NEED to have the neck under simulated tension, mostly because of popping frets. I've done it straight and then when tension is applied some frets pop out, Now remember I said my experience with repairs, when wood is old fret slots are wide, or new; but with a deficient factory fret job. Gluing the frets is a must in extreme heat cities like mine, wood just moves. And the other point is relief on a guitar: my theory is that a string vibrates in a circular manner, relief facilitates that, avoiding buzzing. Anyway this is my experience and my two cents, again a spectacular video from Highline Guitars.
I like your straightforward approach to this problem. Sometimes YAGNI is the best approach (as in software development), "You Aren't Going to Need It".
I always level after a refret with the board completely flat. My mate brought round a guitar for me to check out. Due to it being a freebie I didn’t want to do the whole half a day levelling crowning, going through all the grits. So I actually spot levelled it under tension. I ran a rocker over the whole guitar with it tuned to concert, marked the rocking frets, the took the strings off, spot levelled the 7 frets, re crowned polished then re checked with the rocker and it was spot on. I thought as I was checking 3 frets at a time so the 10’000 of a relief wasn’t an issue. The guitar played great.Didn’t choke and when it’s ready for a refret I’ll do it the traditional way. But for doing a mate a free favour the time I spent was so significantly less. Plus he keeps more fret material which is a bonus. I’m sure Chris only spot levels I saw in one of his videos to save time and fret material. I think actually if you spend the time on getting the board level and you have done your fall off. The spot level is a great time saver if it’s circa 7 frets or less.
These days, I do a full leveling during the initial assembly stage. Later on, when I get to the final setup of the guitar, I'll do just a spot leveling.
@@HighlineGuitars ah I’m going by one of your old videos then. I still completely agree the more time you spend on getting the fingerboard perfect the less metal you loose on the frets. Plus it does speed up the levelling process as you’re hopefully skimming the tops “in theory” a old neck is different to a guitar you’ve built for sure though.
I think leveling frets with some relief on the neck would only be right if you could simulate the exact relief the neck has with strings on. And even in this case I admit I'm not sure if it would the best option... Mmmm, it makes me think... 🤔
Only reason I’ve found that you need neck relief IMO is uneven frets or it’s set up for slide! Keep in mind neck relief throws the intonation out... Any change in the truss changes the scale of guitar. On some vintage guitars this is necessary for easy intonation
Michael Hamerin absolutely.. Your average player that does their own string change and truss adj don’t have a clue as to why.. that your actually shortening and Lengthening the scale
I'm having a guitar leveled now on a simulated tension jig. I thought about it and don't like that idea. If you level the frets on a straight plane, the frets will be on a straight plane whether there is neck bow or not. So a neck slightly bowed in a jig will still have a flat fret plane. So if you want relief you have to bow the neck even more. The only advantage to simulated tension while leveling is if you can't get the neck 100 percent straight. This is all assuming your using a long fret level like 18" or so. It's better to be able to set the neck straight and level, and keep it level after strung up. If more bow is necessary give more bow. The fret plane is something nobody ever thinks about, level is level, regardless of what the neck is doing. And you'll wear down the first and last frets unnecessarily by simulating tension.
Oh gosh! I love the way you explain things and the subjects you touch. One thing I've never done is fret leveled a scalloped fretboard. If you've done it, would you be so kind and share with us/me how you check the fretboard's flatness in this case? Thanks. 😊
It's not possible to reliably test a scalloped fretboard for flatness that I am aware of. You can, however, use a precision straightedge to check how flat the frets are. Unfortunately, this approach has limited usefulness since the frets themselves probably aren't level yet. If the fretboard was glued to the neck, you can use a precision straightedge to check how flat the glue seam is. Again, this approach has limited usefulness since the scalloped surface may not be consistent from fret to fret.
Had a few nice builds Plek'd, watched a hundred videos, bought a book.until I had a $600 Chinese made acoustic that I love but wasn't willing to spend $350 pleking. So I notched straight edge it flat, marked em, hit it with a 600 grit diamond plate till the lines were gone. The fall off was going up, so I hit it with the 300 grit plate first till it was falling off, 600 plate. Then I got a $10 triangle file. Knocked the handle off, diamond plate the corners smooth, mark the tops again, triangle filed the crown back. Rolled the fret ends, sanded to 3000? Polished em with a Dremel and auto polish. Sanded the bottom of the bridge saddle till the action was similar to an electrical guitar and I was over it first try. Now that my acoustic has the action of a finely tuned electric, I love it even more. No fancy jigs or files or anything . and I told myself afterwards , after all the anxiety and contemplating, that's all there is to it? Now I don't want to spend $350 pleking anything. High end or low end. Of course now I have a special crowning file, micro mesh, etc etc. That I probably don't need. The hardest part is I am practically blind and I can hardly see the thin line after crowning. Think if I really had a troublesome back bow or a twist a simple under string levelling beam would do the trick. Really not a lot to it. The real advantage of the plek is a shop can bust out 10-20 level jobs in a day.
Spot On! 40 years of playing and working on my own guitars A Flat board makes all the difference, even for my customers If they like that little bit of bow I can put it in with the trust rod. Well done sir
Enjoyed that vid thanks. You probably already know this but Dan Erlewine also advocates for a flat neck with no relief. It makes a lot of sense to me personally so I appreciate you sharing your thoughts on the subject.
Just bought a natural Affinity Squier Telecaster and am upgrading some things as well as working on the neck. This neck was flat, maybe even bowed backwards slightly as a straight edge was off the neck on the two ends slightly. I heard your theory regarding how players adjust relief in the neck to avoid buzzing and you mentioned that there was another way to go about fixing the issue but didn’t elaborate. Maybe do another video giving us an option. I’m just learning luthier work on my own guitars but it seems if you’re going to level the frets that the fretboard needs to be flat. I would think that the curvature caused by trusted adjustments done afterwards is a separate piece of the tone, action and intonation setup. You’d want the fret tops at the same height as each other from the fretboard surface regardless if it bows concave slightly. Just a new inexperienced perspective on it.
ive torchered my share of bent necked cheapies from used stores. mostly cure intonation first by redoing the bridge. that may only mean easy or worse, but also set basic string height. to really have it easy, and moveable tail pieces make it so. best to get all that cured first, then string 'er up and play some. best i read was that when a string vibrates, a very stretched pointy ended cone forms that measures fattest at the 1/2 span. so clearance beyond the 12th fret adds dissonance, but a bit of bow to there gives air. so i often prefer to work a partially finished inst. strung and tuned; then detune/prop strings away and finish the buzzy frets and stuff. l guess its really about paralleling an ellipse but heavier strings take more room too. closest reasonable action basis starts here.
I made my own neck jig years ago and used it with great sucess. But I also found out years ago that it was a lot of unnecessary work. So I no longer use as a regular thing. However when using a jig the neck still needs to be flat/straight. You would not want to simulate relief in the neck and then sand it with a flat beam that would create a back bow once out of the jig. Also I started out using a dead flat neck on my first guitars but it's impossible to get a low, 4/64, string height without buzz without some relief in the neck. I don't use neck relief as a cop out for a bad set up. .080 as a rule. I do use the fret jig when doing compression fretting on old Martins that don't have adjustable truss rods. I agree a good fret job is miles ahead of the plek, not a fan.
and once in the jig. how is it flat/straight? as it is simulating string tension... is not the point of the jig to level th frets with simulated tension, therefor with a beam ,no matter what would happen if it was relased
@@dannyjonze, Hi Danny, the point is to flatten the neck out under string tension and then take the strings off and re-establish the flat neck with the head jack and the nut strap. Without changing the truss rod so when set the neck is still exerting the same stresses. Watch the Dan Erlewine video he explains it very well. Heck somewhere in my videos there's one showing how to use the jig.
yeah I totally agree, I have always set my guitars up with no relief, the good ones set up beautifully with the lowest action in the world and dead on perfect intonation, the slightly less good ones would start to struggle right around 0.003 mm of relief and that's literally the thickness of a paper. relief is over rated if your builder made sure your neck and frets are perfectly level you shouldn't need any.
Music man are leveling the fretboard (not the frets) with some back bow tension on the trussrod. That give a bit of adjustability to get a correct relief when you are using slinky strings. Otherwize the neck is to rigid to bend even if you loosen the trussrod all the way.
Hi Chris (as an enthusiastic ameteur) - I've found that giving a little neck relief can have an advantage with respect to the elcectronics especially of a neck pickup. If by means of the relief, the string height is a little higher, using neck relief, for example on a telecaster. The higher register notes on the neck can make proximity to the neck p/up (not so much bridge), significantly closer. The shorter arc of the string induces less output when the neck is straight, and notes are fretted in the upper register quieter. The trick is to have the neck p/up set high so it is very close to the strings on the top fret. In the lower positions this evens out volume also. I cut the nut slots very low, (this improves intonation in the first 4 positions), surprisingly, a little neck relief can raise the action around the open position without compromising the intonation. At least my tuner always seems to confirm this.
I agree totally... only makes sense.... If you have a perfectly straight and level fret board ... everything "should " work ok ..... if not tighten the trust rod ... sometimes things are made more difficult than need be
At 10:20 I’ve learned from working on the gulf coast for 10yrs that players who frequently play both indoor and outdoor gigs goin from no relative humidity to 100% humidity that relief allows for acclimation between the 2. I learned real quick on some of the first set ups I did, I quickly learned that I had to adapt my understanding of what is correct vs what is best depending on circumstance.. Just the low pressure storm fronts that move through will quickly change every guitar on my wall... I assume manufacturers know this well and is the reason “factory specs” (I hate that damn phrase when talking about guitars) calls for relief
I played the Eastern half of the USA in the 70s. Every time we played in Ocean City MD, I had to adjust the necks on my wooden guitars and also had to adjust the relief on the bass player's 4-str. Precision. When we went back inland, we had to re-adjust the necks to the lower humidity. We played other gigs near the Atlantic ocean and the Gulf of Mexico, never really had to make relief adjustments like we did in Ocean City.
RB I’ve worked on tours all over the US but never have I seen anything like lI do working on the golf coast on the gulf coast... Ocean Springs for crying out loud!
I will bow the neck slightly if I’m getting too much buzz. I’m a drummer first and guitarist second so I have a heavy hand. That’s why I’m learning to refret my own guitars! I go through frets like coffee filters. 😂
Flat for levelling. Some relief for playing to let a long string move or travell a greater distance without contacting the central most frets. Towards the highest and lowest frets the string travels a shorter distance so needs less clearance.
I think the ultimate question is how you set the action on your instruments. If you set the action at 1 millimeter (at the 12th fret high e) or above then you don't need the accuracy that string tension simulation can give you. If, however, you do like action below 1 mil there is no substitute for tension simulation short of a Plek machine. IMHO of course. I enjoy your channel and have learned a lot from it so thank you. I also just picked up cycling so it seems we have similar interests lol
Jordan Dupont I don’t know anyone who setups their guitars at 1mm. That’s seems way too low to be honest. The lowest I’ve ever seen is around 1.25mm and that was low for me. I like 1.5mm on the high E to 1.75 on the low E on Acoustics and Electrics. Classicals I set up a tad higher.
I understand that may be your experience, but it isn’t mine. I have also just discussed this with MAJOR players (John Petrucci being one of them) and Petrucci’s action is actually slightly BELOW 1mm at the12th. Also I know many players that I’ve done work for that have requested their action at 1mm and some even request lower than that. It’s actually the reason some people bring their guitars to me so I can achieve that for them
Jordan Dupont wow that’s crazy I honestly have never seen anyone setup their guitars that’s low. They must have a very light touch because most of the guys I setup for bang on their guitars like crazy. Lol So you believe that the string tensioning jig is a superior method to leveling with the neck flat? I’m very intrigued by what you have said it’s honestly mind boggling to think of action under 1mm with no fret buzz.
Frank Faz yes I do and I would be happy to show you if you’d like. To be clear I think the plek machine is the best (most accurate) method. There’s also another caveat here - new construction like Chris is doing here it’s less important to simulate tension. But yeah the guys (and me) that like that super slammed action have very light touches
Jordan Dupont That would be awesome man, I’m in Texas and I’ve never heard of action that low around here. I’ve been looking for someway to make my fretwork better. The woodworking I got down it’s just fretwork and finishes that still give me nightmares. Lol
I think you’re right on. You are a very interesting person to listen to. I love this video you give a lot of great information. Thanks so much appreciate it.👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼😁🎸❤️😁
One of the prime purposes of an adjustable truss is to provide relief or the correct balance of forces with a given set of strings to render that. For those believing the relief should be hard set into the frets (a bit of a contradiction for fret height itself, an important factor of playability) then just use a massive steel truss in lieu of an adjustable truss from the get-go. Are highways skimmed on their asphalt thickness to make up for dips and bumps? Hardly, it's the base where that's done. Frets are not the devices intended to correct for what a truss should correct for. If the neck doesn't adjust properly, then the *fallback* option is to try and do at least some of it in the frets, but that's a last option, not a first one.
but if you level the frets with bow in the neck then you end up with all the frets level when the guitar is strung and that negates the point of having bow in the neck in the first place. the reason for putting bow in the neck is so that the strings can vibrate more freely, but the frets are the only part of the neck close enough to the strings to effect this, so having a bowed neck with completely levelled frets doesn't perform the required task.
Great information, thank you! It is so helpful as someone who is just starting out learning basic luthier work to hear your experience and reasoning, not just instructions on how to perform a task. Every single one of your videos I have watched have been super helpful.
My setup is frets level flat then pull a small amount of relief which allows my action to be just a little lower than normal. Here's how I think it works. If I play an open string the full 25.5" vibrates with the largest swing at the 12th fret. Okay say I play on the 5th or 7th fret now and with my relief it pulls further down than it normally would to fret. But it doesn't matter so much because the vibration swing isn't going to be near as much as an open due to the shorter length. There's that sweet spot that makes the strings fret so good and the action is low.
Great advice! I've only levelled my guitars and a couple of other guitars for close friends, and I've only been doing this for a few years on and off, but also like you said about the bow being dependent on the wood type, I've also realised that there might be something in there to do with the tuning, string gauge and even type too! Since thicker strings in a higher tuning don't tend to have as much of a wide rotation as a thinner gauge in a similar tuning, so the area of bow becomes more important for guitarists who may use a certain guitar primarily for the same tuning with thinner gauge strings. I find on set necks/neck-thru guitars they tend to bow more often around the neck joint, which can cause issues for me since I use thinner gauge strings mostly, so I like to give the last few frets a TINY bit of a shelf just enough to give that area of the string room to rotate without buzz whilst keeping the action relatively low and even throughout the length of the board. Bolt-ons I don't usually have that issue with.
On the older style necks you can only tighten the truss rod. With it backed off all the way or loose ,you adjust the truss rod just till it feels like there is just a touch of engagement. Then you straighten the frets .When you restring the guitar there will be some relief caused by the string tension.
I've tried dialing in a slight bow from the truss rod to try it and all I found was the higher frets 20 21 22 etc get taken down too much,,straight is the way for me !
I know this is an old video, I only just saw it, but I have a question and answers for you. Answers first, Neck jigs are for instruments without adjustable truss rods, plain and simple. The jig is good for stuff like old bar fret guitars where you can't level without the tension simulated, all that is negated by an adjustable truss rod. Answer 2, relief serves a function I never see spoken about, the less relief, the more the action increses towards the bridge, more relief (to a point) gives a more consistent action height from the 12th to last fret. Its a balancing act, and a lot of times I've found relief at like 10 thousands will give a much more consistent and comfortable action height over the entire neck, than say 6 thousands and the action at the 21st fret is like 20% higher than the 12th fret. All that greatly depends on the neck itself. I hope that makes sense. Now question, on very thin or "flexy" necks where the truss rod tends to start pulling the head back before the middle of the neck is perfectly straight, do you personally adjust to a happy medium of head drop and centre relief, or do you choose one over the other, being that it is never going to hurt for the first fret to be slightly higher than the rest? I tend to go for the happy medium, straight as I can without the head dropping, then level it. Just interested what others do in that situation
Great observations. I can tell you are experienced. To answer your question, I reinforce my necks with carbon fiber which eliminates that very problem.
@@HighlineGuitars thanks👍 As you said I think some of these things get over-thought. Also, just a bonus tip I've worked out after doing a couple of guitars😉, is that a simple way of working out the base line for the relief that a particular neck needs to be happy, is just tune it up and play and open A chord, and progressively tighten the truss rod until the D & G strings start to buzz when fretting the 2nd fret and strumming reasonably hard, and just back it off until the fret buzz stops. Thats basically the perfect relief for that neck. There is very in-depth reasons why that works, but for sake of simplicity, you are straightening the neck to the point where you are almost into back-bow, the fret buzz is the indicator, by setting it using the 2nd fret you are automatically taking care of the frets beyond the 12th as well. Like I said before, it's all a fine balancing act, there is no perfect answer or number.
So right on this one . Let’s go full robot with The PLEK . I have worked on hundreds of PLEKED guitars, and guess what They’re so inconsistent All over the place. All the top Gibsons are PLEKED but some are horrible some are good.
if you put some relief in you can be sure not to get a backbow in case the neck moves a little. i think it is a good safety measure to achieve a setup which will work without adjusting the truss rod very often. there are necks that move. unfortunately i have one in my favorite guitar.
Hi. I am new to the channel and love it. I have a question I haven´t found an aswer for. I have two compound radious guitars with richlite fretboards. I had noticed too much fretbuzz with low action and wanted to improve that. I am almost sure the frets need some levelling as when they were installed there was virtually no fretwork done to them. I tried to streighten up the neck using the trussrod and a notched straight edge to check it but I never get a straight fretboard, that's on any of the two guitars. It seems the only way the notched straight edge won't rock over the fretboard is if it has a lot of relief. If a try to get no space between the fretboard and the notched straight edge, it can only make contact with more or less half the neck ( form frets one to tweleve more or less) and then you can see a gap that increases beyond that point. Can a notched straight edge be used with compound radius guitars? Is it possible both necks are warped? Sorry if my English is a little rusty. Greetings from Colombia.
I agree that the slight bow some players like is indeed because they simply have gotten used to that geometry of the neck and then they deem that as the correct feel of the neck. It always amased me that the smallest turn of the truss rod nut can change the stiffness of the strings and they feel on certain guitars. I dislike necks that have a higher action in the middle going up to the 12-15 frets and then too low going up to the 22nd frets ect. I like a low action and smooth transition getting ever so slightly higher at the heel of the neck but too low makes them feel harder to play and too high is also not ideal. My friend had an Ibanez floral Jem that was PLEKED and the action was utterly perfect. I now own that 1990 floral Jem in pristine condition and I am seeking a guitar tech guy who can do this guitar again as it was when my friend owned it. No buzzes but low for slick fast playing but not too low that I can't dig in and get some finger flesh under the strings. I also love tall frets but haven't really tried SS frets yet. I have played an ESP with SS frets and the bends were effortless and I loved the high end twang that SS frets have slightly more than N/S fret wire. I wish SS frets have the same choice as Dunlop wires do like the 6505 and the tall but slightly narrow wires. I wish their was also a system that reduced the sharpness that guitars suffer from as they can't intonate correctly. The sharpness is always from the nut to around the 7th fret area. Maybe fret wave tech is the answer.. as if I tune my guitar to a perfect Dmaj chord then Amaj is always out by quite a lot and this really hurts my ears as the maj 3rds sound sour to me. I think an overhang of those frets could help this problem but nobody has made special frets like this with a normal tang but a wider fret that flattens or sharpens specific frets would be awesome.
"[W]e tend to overanalyze and ovethink things into oblivion, because it really isn't that complicated." If truer words about guitar matters were ever uttered, I don't know what they would be. Nicely said, sir.
Too many things in play at once to use a tension jig like bridge/saddle height , the nut itself ( that's the most important part how the nut is cut ) . Too deep of nut slots can create fret buzz that usually can't be fixed without upsizing string gauge . Another is environment. Fret level a guitar in winter in Alberta Canada here can get you really nice low action with minimal fret buzz because it so dry . Along comes spring and it's a fret buzzing rollercoaster price of crap . Best way to fret level a guitar is the way the customer wants it or if it's your guitar the way you like it . Unless the necks warped beyond repair it's usually a simple straight forward process that takes a few hours .
I guess my own reasoning for a bit of forebow / relief "in theory anyway" is the fact that the open string travels more in the middle or arcs, and that forebow follows this same shape as you know. Mind you, sometimes it doesn't seem to work at all and it's something I could never get down consistently. I've aways used the test of a finger on around the14th fret and first while plucking it allowing the string to vibrate freely. Wood is very inconsistent and reacts differently under stress as you also mentioned too, It may arc more towards the headstock or closer to the body. I agree about fret work on a level board first.
It’s true that the open string tables more in the middle. But optimizing for the open string vibrating can cause problems when you fret that string. Open, the greatest travel is over the 12th fret. Fret the 12th fret, and the greatest travel is now over the up bowed high frets, if you have relief.
The only guitarist I’ve came across wanting a slight bow had the same basic reason for the bow. Both stated that in a stage performance situation, if the neck was straight at the beginning of the concert, the neck seemed to get an up bow causing buzzing and sometimes sounding like a dead string. So, they wanted an under bow to compensate. I was always told to introduce the instruments into a new environment as soon as possible, so they could acclimate .
Level the frets when the neck is flat. Action is more a result of the relationship between the nut and the saddles. Relief can achieve a similar result but as you said, isn't the ideal way to go.
Love your videos, Thanks for sharing your hard earned knowledge. In the case of non professionals like myself, might a neck that’s not completely supported deflect slightly during leveling throwing the level job off slightly? Where a neck jig would hold it straight during leveling even if a but too much downward force we’re applied with the beam or file, resulting in a better job?
The Katana leveling system has been around for a while, but it doesn't seem to have caught on the way I would have thought. I was going to try it myself, but other guys I know who have used it advised me not to waste my money.
@@HighlineGuitars The Katana leveling system is a genius invention. It needs to be used properly, but it works great. I started with the flat fretboard and straight bar system and I was satisfied. I also self-built a neck jig, similar to the Stewmac's one (the concept is very simple). But when I discovered and got the Katana, I would never get back to other systems. Give it a try. It's worth the money
@@HighlineGuitars Hi, You can ask Davide Bissoli ( The Mad Genius behind the Katana and other designs ) to lend You a Katana for testing, if You like it You can buy it, if not just return it, He has also a nut file called littlebone has the shape of a bone that crowns the frets perfect without worry of modifying the fret height, I own 29 guitars and after having done two of My guitars boutique setups that included fret leveling on the best Guitar Repair Shop in town I figured that I had to do it myself because of costs related, I know how to setup and repair the electronics, but I did not have the tools for fret leveling and crowning tools etc.... So I started looking around and found Rectify Master Videos and website ( name of the company ), saw some videos from Davide and from others who dare testing it and gave it a try, long story short, the Guitar Repair Shop with all the tools including Stewmac Neck Jig and traditional tools take about 4 and a half hours to level and crown a 22 fret guitar, I ordered the Katana and littlebone to crown frets and did My first leveling and crowning in 1 hour and a half, the guitar is a cheap Cort guitar and ended with lower playing action without buzzing than my Gibson Les Paul Custom without experience I did a similar work than the Guitar Repair Shop and in less time If You give Yourself a chance You can find a very useful tool, from the other guys that have tried out the Katana it looks tht they have achieved similar or better results using the Katana, just my two cents, great channel, I have learned a lot with Your insightful videos, thanks.
Trying to level under tension just adds another variable that is unnecessary to the set up. Different string gauge, different playing styles, different truss rod tension -- all affect the neck. Just level with the neck perfectly flat and then adjust from there. At least you know the frets are level.
@ConManliness No. The level of the frets is different from neck relief. You want the frets absolutely level when the neck is absolutely straight. Neck relief (created by the string tension) then allows space for the sting to vibrate. If you put relief in the neck and then level the frets -- well first of all you'd have to do it a LOT since neck relief changes over time/temperature/humidity/string gauge, and secondly you would (unnecessarily) remove a lot of fret material on the upper and lower frets just to get back to level. If you want your frets heights to provide zero relief when the neck is under tension, just tighten the truss rod and play with a straight neck. Hope I explained that effectively.
Just subbed your channel - have enjoyed your videos. Reading the comments, it seems there's plenty of agreement to this being done dead level. With that the case, it seems to me the Erlewine jig is unnecessary although, if you have a single-action truss rod, you do need some sort of jig to straighten the neck from a backbow if it has one after the strings are off and it is on it's back. You can make something simple with wood and threaded rod. If you have a double-action truss rod then you can use that as you have shown here - no jig necessary. Straight is straight. Whether you are in "playing position" or the guitar is on it's back, straight (by the notched straight edge) is straight. Whether the strings are on or the strings are off, straight is straight. In my opinion this has been way over-thought as you note in the video. I would say, if you did want to level with slight relief in the neck, then the jig would help, but you could also use the notched straight edge with feeler gauges in the middle of the neck. Also, one commenter below noted that neck support during the leveling operation is important which I agree with - you could make an adjustable support for the middle of the neck fairly simply.
This answers a question I have often wondered. If a neck jig produces bow forward or back can’t it be achieved by the truss rod? And if lower frets are desired in the higher notes or down at the cowboy chords, couldn’t it be achieved by applying slightly greater pressure to the beam in those areas? I’m just a hack but I’m here to get better. Thanks for the great info. Glad to find your channel.
I definitely think leveling the frets on a level neck that is straight and flat, is the only way to go. The idea of leveling with any type of curve on the fret board is wacky. I've watched a few videos of these techniques, and came away speechless and confused... I thought about it, but came to the conclusion that it makes no sense. As far as relief goes, the ideal situation for me is a dead flat neck. I believe you will always get your best action across the fretboard. Since the neck is wood, the only reason I would add a small amount of relief is to protect against front-bow, which could happen transporting the guitar to a gig, or even during the gig. It's just a little bit of insurance that it stays playable. A small change of temperature, the next thing you know it's choking out all over the place. Of course, if you like higher action, then this entire conversation / thread might not concern you.
If you level the frets with relief you are removing the relief!! Absolutely correct to level with neck flat. As always there at exceptions to the rules.
Very true!
I’ve watched a guy called Sam Deeks I think it is who basically uses a diy I think it was called the katana system. Basically it has a truss rod so say your fingerboard relief is 10’000 you set the level to the exact amount of relief as the board and it’s usually done with the strings on. I know he’s taken some significant flack for his none traditional method but he swears by it after hundreds of levels and refrets. I’m not going to say his method is right nor would I say it’s wrong, but I will say it goes against traditional methods. I also see as he is basically using a trussrod with abrasive paper the width is very narrow and I can see how he could easily do more under two strings than the adjacent strings. Therefor that is the issue I see vs a decent beam which does much more in one go on a perfectly flat board. Then run a fret rocker over it after to correct any outstanding problem areas.
I tend to take Chris’s side, if a guitar he’s fretted and level and crowned is reported as no action needed on a pleck machine. I would still stick with the traditional methods. Sometimes you just don’t need to re invent the wheel just because you can
I had the same thought. So if you believe in some neck relief THEN you have to fret level in a flat state. If you can't adjust the neck anymore (for whatever reason) you may have to level in a non-flat state.
Yes! What's the point in going to the trouble of creating some relief in the fretboard if you are just going to level the frets afterward?
(I'm assuming that by "relief" we mean a tiny gap between string and fret (about fret 8) when caop'ing at fret 1 and holding string down at the highest fret.)
I’m an amateur, so forgive my ignorance, but I thought the idea of relief was to kind of compensate for imperfection and allow the strings to play without buzzing. If you level your frets with the neck perfectly flat, then you should be able to set the guitar up and try to achieve a perfectly flat neck with no relief when the neck is under string tension. You wouldn’t need any relief at that point. Or is there another reason people would want relief? Do they want different spacing between the string and fret at different points on the neck? Does that make a difference in their playing style/technique or something? Again, forgive my ignorance. I’m just trying to learn.
The purpose of relief is to allow space for the strings to vibrate freely along their entire length. Without it, the strings will buzz against the frets at the point on the neck where the first and second harmonics produce maximum displacement.
Only if the frets are tall and the action is low.
@@HighlineGuitars everybody seems to want the action as low as they can get it so this is always going to be the limiting factor
Chris, I found that most players don't know squat about the mechanics of their instrument. That's why we can make a living keeping their instruments in top playing condition. Luthiers use to trust their eye but now they need all the expensive tools because the tool salesman said so. Hell, for years I used an old credit card to check for a high fret!
hahahah I used credit cards!!!
Yeah. I use cutter blades. You can break them at appropiate lenghts.
I am a tech, not yet a full-blown luthier, and in the last year have gotten heavy into fret work (fortunately with really good results so far). I was considering building or buying the Erlewine Neck Jig thinking it will increase my accuracy specifically in the leveling process; I have been leveling frets by setting the truss rod to a dead flat neck up to now. This video answered a lot of questions for me, and I think I will simply build a table to stabilize the guitar and neck while I work. Right now I rest the neck on a sand bag to stabilize.
Thank you for your informative and engaging videos, and thank you for real talk about the many hype and industry induced mysteries surrounding guitar work, and showing us your real-world processes. Awesome Plek story too!
That is a luthiers dream. Send it to the PLEK guys... "yeah, this guitar is already perfect"
obsessive in my opinion, just play the guitar after the Luthier has done their tweaks and see if you like it lol
This is my favorite luthier RUclips channel by far.
This guy is like the Wampler of the luthier world when in comes to knowledge for guitars.
Thanks for the video. I've come to the same conclusion - level while the neck is flat. I have a neck jig, and I still use it, but with a slightly different aim: I first adjust the guitar's neck as straight as possible with the truss rod while the strings are on. Then, strap the guitar into the jig, zero the dials, bring the jack and rods up so they're supporting the neck. Then remove the strings. After the strings are off, there is usually some small adjusting that has to be done with the jack. But it's pretty easy getting the neck back to flat, rather than recreating some curve. I check with a straightedge that the neck is flat.
The advantage to having the guitar in the jig while working is that it's super solidly mounted. I have the support rods up against the neck and they hold it flat all along the length. If you do not have the support rods up, you can actually see the dials moving by a few thousandths as you run a sanding block up and down the length of the neck, so I feel it's better to have the neck solidly supported all along. The other thing is that, on an older guitar, having the truss rod in a tightened position is a more accurate representation of the condition of the neck. Sometimes the truss tension does some weird things, like cause slight S curves (as viewed from the side). If you work in the jig, with the truss under tension, you can better compensate for these issues.
So, I like working under truss rod tension, but on a flat neck.
Hi Chris, I see your point. The testing after-ward doesn't make a difference - because I think we would always test. But if we level "frets" when the neck is under tension, we take off more metal on some frets than necessary. To level frets while the neck is under tension, is to only use a truss-rod to keep the neck straight. Taking off more material than necessary renders the neck with less life-time. Truss-rods are for setting up necks. If you start with a level (straight) neck, you can work in the fall off if you want things like that to be factored. I prefer your method.
A few years ago A friend and I built 2 neck jigs patterned after the StewMac one for our personal use as hobbyists. I've done refrets and dresses with and without the jig. The jigs we built weren't too difficult to set up and on an expensive guitar I'll use the jig; but while under string tension I keep the neck as flat as it will allow and when finished I'll use the truss rod for any relief. This was a very informative video. Keep up the good work:0)
I loved this video, for the same reason I like your other videos - you go in depth into the reasoning behind your thinking. That's extremely valuable. Too often, guitar youtubers give you their opinions on why something is right or wrong, but they don't explain why, or offer any kind of evidence. In your case, you offer the Plek machine as evidence that leveling the frets with a flat neck is probably the optimal approach.
It is simple for me.
The neck should be straight when leveling the frets.
If you level the fret that gives the relief you actually play, there will be no relief on the fret even if there is a relief on the neck. This is nonsense, isn't it?
Totally agree Hisashi SASAKI, the neck should be 100% straight when leveling the frets. Not even sure why this question is even asked as related to a full fret leveling procedure. Only reason I could ever imagine you would deviate from the accepted practice would be to remove a bit more fret material from the upper frets to possibly induce a "fall-off" with the upper frets having a touch more material removed to prevent "fretting-out" on the higher notes. The relief induced into the neck through the truss rod for normal playing setup maybe isn't as pronounced in the upper frets, thus the reason to sometimes using the "falling-off" of the upper frets. I guess I need to watch this video again, and maybe a third time to be clear of it's purpose.
Basic physics, the process of leveling indicates flatness or trueness on a certain length. You dont level a bow without affecting material removal
@@hkguitar1984 The upper frets are usually where the neck joins the body, so won't there will be zero bow there no matter the amount of relief?
@@jeffbosch1697 Correct, on a single cut guitar the Bass side of the neck is glued in and making contact with the body (as a guess, up to the 14th Fret area).
Often times the Truss Rod will only bow towards the end of the neck, but not always, designs differ, however I can't imagine the entire neck bowing.
That said, it doesn't take much movement at all (bow) to greatly change how the guitar performs and feels to the Player.
I agree with this approach also as level is level and straight is straight, especially on a new neck.
That’s the best question, and I think yes totally flat when leveling. The truss rod can always be adjusted after stringing . Just my take! I’m a self taught Luthier that has apprenticed under a very strict builder that has forgotten more about stringed instruments than most ever know!
Totally agree,99% of the time leveling with a neck flat works perfectly fine, BUT very rarely you get a neck that doesn't behave evenly under string tension. Got a Yamaha BB5000(neck through 24frets) that without string tension, the frets were perfectly leveled. Once I strung it up to pitch , it got a bow between fret 2 and 9 and the rest of the neck was dead straight. Same with a Godin electric. What a headache trying explaining that to the customer. Maybe I should give it some more relief and call it a day. Malfunctioning trussrod? Uneven wood strength? Send it for PLEK treatment? I wouldn't even think of removing the ebony board of the Yamaha to replace the trussrod or add stiffening rods..
hi, interesting point about different neck construction..i was taught to introduce a tiny backbow into the neck with the trussrod then clamp the body to the bench and put a wedge under the headstock.. push the wedge until the neck is straightish, then skim it. this way you replicate string tension and you also have a bit on truss rod for any future backbow problems. another way to replicate string tension is clamp the body to a bench( guitar fully strung and in tune ) gently put a wedge under the headstock and two wedges under the middle of neck , dont push the wedges tight, undo strings and skim..thats a way of replicating string tension without any fancy expensive machines or jigs.. ive worked for two different well known guitar manufactures.. one did it that way and the other did it your way..as you said, the way the neck is put together affects the strenghth and bendabilitity(new word)ha ha of the wood. for instance multilaminated necks.
I found the same conclusion about the the neck jig! When I was fretting 4-5 a year I used one. When doing 4-5 a month?? NO WAY ITS WORTH IT!
I agree 100 percent ur gonna tune,intonate&play it anyway. Each person can add there own Tweeks,bow,relief etc.
Lots of people are saying that a neck jig is pointless, but my understanding is the main reason they exist is because some necks will twist / warp slightly under string tension, so using the neck jig means the tops of the frets will be level when the guitar is strung up and under tension (i.e. when it really matters) as opposed to when it's not under tension. As far as I know (I don't own one), you would typically still adjust the truss rod to get the neck as straight as possible before levelling; the only difference would be any small variations in the contour of the fingerboard between "flat and no tension" vs. "flat and tension". In cases where there's a difference between the two, you want to level for the latter as that's how the guitar will be played. Of course, as Chris said, he builds guitars and so knows the necks he is working on are consistent. If you run a repair shop though, that's not always going to be the case.
When he got the phone call about nothing needs doing and that is after posting the guitar where anything in Transit could go wrong and still nothing needs doing is a testimony to his True Craftmanship
I like the KISS method. Keep it simple and take all the rocket science out of it. This is exactly what you are doing with your videos. Thank you for making these videos.
I am 64 now and have been playing bass and guitar since 1972...but I have never done this leveling myself. So I bought a Notched Straightedge for bass...a Maxparts BF-AF16 Fret File...a crowning file I had already, also understring radius gauges - and look forward to it like a little boy! That it is best to do this with an absolutely straight neck, I strongly suspected and now got confirmation. Thanks a lot! 🙂
Some people play hard (I did when I was learning) and can get the buzz. Easy enough to add some relief. And people play every way in between. Most acoustic’s have a bit of relief. Totally agree with your approach. I think the neck jig is good for folks that don’t have your skill set.
Leveling a neck with string tension (a bowed neck) makes no sense to me when your using a straight leveling beam. Personally I get the neck straight as possible and make sure the neck is well supported to prevent any flexing while leveling.
I saw this video many years ago. Then now I really understand what you're talking about. And of course I agree with your point of view on this sensitive subject. After all, it takes some time... I guess.
I'm really thank you.
I play with the slightest amount of relief, like .005 feeler gauge, measured with a capo on 1st, fretting the last fret, and depending on the neck length/guitar itself, I measure the action at the 8th or 12th fret. The only reason I do that is because I know for sure it will have next to no impact and it also ensures that it does indeed have no forward bow.
For leveling, if I am making a brand new neck, of course I make it completely flat, glue in the frets, press them in with a radius match, and then level them with a beam. For older guitars... I really feel strongly about leveling them with a shorter file/beam as I seldom find an older neck that has maintained perfect straightness over the years, and doing full beam-leveling would probably take too much material away at one side.
The most interesting thing I've found is that even with a neck that, on my bench, seems completely warped beyond playability, I have set them up under string tension and they play perfectly lol. For those instances I try to just spot level if there is a fret-out, but full neck leveling seems out of the question unless I'm taking all the frets out and re-surfacing a fretboard.
Thank you, great!
This video answers all the questions I had about leveling with the jig and the plek machine.
It encourages me to continue levling with an absolutely flat neck.
Glad it was helpful!
Good Lord, your channel is an absolute goldmine of knowledge! Thank you, sir!
Praise His holy name, amen.
Excellent video mate I also level the frets with the neck flat then string the guitar up with the gauge of strings that will be used let it sit for a few days play it check again play it some more seems to work very well. I like my neck to be flat even under string tension not every one does some players like a small amount of relief. Love your Chanel mate have good good one!
I subscribed because of the “bumper music”…. Heavy riffage!! Calming voice!!! This guy is dead level on point!!! YessssSir!!!!
I like your detail explanation...my thought is level on flat neck the bow would not produce high frets.. biggest issue we have with buzz and such...and u can also adjust truss rod after strings if the bow is significant..
Thanks for giving me the value of your experience.
Kind of like when tuners became widely available. Suddenly, intonation was measurable and of primary importance. Even though people had played, recorded, and made hits with out of tune guitars.
I like my neck with no relief. Here's why. If I set the relief about .010 +- before it plays well I will also have to induce fall away beyond the 12th fret. This,I believe, is because at mid neck the guitar is fingering in a trough, which rattles up the neck.
Chet fans know he liked .008 relief, but what is less known is he preferred a high action. If that's his recipe, so be it. For me, my recipe is no relief, low action, no fall away. Since I haven't made 60 years worth of wonderful recordings, I doubt anyone would ask for my preferences. The point is, players should find their preference rather than copy something they heard or read about without getting the whole story. Great video.
When I first started learning about guitar setups from books back in the late 80's/early 90's there was even a lot of differing opinions back then on the best setup techniques. Some even suggested having fretboards with built-in relief. I like to just set the neck flat and level that way. It also depends on what condition the fretboard is in too.
Personally on relief, I think it depends on how the guitarist plays. If they're a light player, you can probably get away with a straight neck and no relief. If you're the type that likes to bash away (like many rhythm players), then a little relief to counter the string buzz is good. That's how I set all of mine up. But every guitarist is different.
I had to put relief into my neck when I went to light strings (9/42). Happy to hear about a better way around it :)
All you say seems very sensible. It seems logical to me to set the neck (well the fretboard surface) to be straight and then level the frets so they are as straight and level as the neck. In fact if the neck/fretboard on a newly built guitar is flat and the frets are properly installed it should hardly be necessary to level the frets at all.
I think the argument about levelling under tension is that most necks don't simply curve under string tension but tend to form a S curve. They bow forward between the nut and around the twelfth fret and then rise in a small hump from the twelfth fret to the last fret. I think that, assuming that does happen, the idea is that levelling under tension, with the neck set as straight as possible, allows smoothing out some of that hump.
However there are a number of demonstrations of the Plek machine on RUclips that show the neck profile on-screen and I don't remember any of them showing a hump. In any case the hump is supposed to be the result of compressive force along the neck and I don't see how a neck jig, which only bends a neck forwards, is going to simulate that compression.
I didn't think there was any mystery about relief - the idea is to approximate the vibrational path of the strings so a lower overall buzz free action can be achieved, than if the neck is dead straight.
[They bow forward between the nut and around the twelfth fret and then rise in a small hump from the twelfth fret to the last fret. ] Yes! And this is what many refer to as the area needing "fall-away". It's a trade-off, and a whole separate topic really.
@@stephensaines7100 I've come back to this video after some time so excuse the delayed comment. I personally don't like the idea of a fall away on an electric guitar. In any case my point was that I have seen the - compression results in an S curve - theory propounded in a few places, and maybe it does happen in some guitars. BUT I have seen several RUclips videos of the PLEK machine mapping the fret board and they NEVER show an S curve. All I have seen is a smooth and simple forward bow under string tension when the truss rod is set for a small amount of relief.
It SEEMS to me that slight relief lets you get lower action with less fret buzz because it ever so slightly changes the angle the string leaves the fret passing over the rest of the frets, but it also seems the lighter you play the less its necessary, harder playing induces a taller/fatter "football" of string vibration. At least that's my perception.
Yea, i agree. I always have a lot of buzzing on my SG without any relief, I need around 8 thousands relief to have low action and no horrendous buzzing, still have a little though, but I can live with that
I agree with your analysis 100%. Most videos exaggerating about guitar set ups. Yet thay talk forever without clear conclusions. Most conclusions ware it "what is your preference" That's telling you they BS forever in their videos. Important as you said, 1. Set neck straight, restring guitar. Tune it up. That will give you some neck relief. Then adjust relief if necessary whatever your preference is. It's simple as that. That's the way i was setting my neck relief for 65 years!.❤️🕊️🌍👌👍👏
Love your videos. So justified and clearly explained. I’d love to know your approach to straightening necks ready for a fret dress, where they won’t straighten properly.
My luthier has the neck dead straight when leveling the frets. He ads a little fallaway at the end of the fretboard. Every guitar he set up for me plays like a dream. I guess there is no more to say. Flat. Deffinetely flat.
The fallaway is there to provide room for the strings to vibrate at the fundamental frequency (first harmonic) for which maximum displacement occurs in the middle of the freely vibrating part of the string. The relief in the neck is there to provide room for vibration at the second and third harmonics which occur 1/3 and 1/4 of the distance from the point where it’s fretted.
I like to level with the neck set as straight as I can get it. Then control the geometry of the playing surface with the truss rod.
I like around 8 thousandths of relief. I really enjoy digging in and snapping the strings in the lower area of the neck, and lighten up quite a bit as I move up. I tend to keep my action at around 2mm at the 14th on the sixth, graduating down to 1.5mm on the first.
Thank you Chris. I knew what you said was true but had doubts and thought about building a neck jig. You just saved me SO much time and headaches. Gonna keep leveling the same way as before- deadflat fretboard. Thanks Chris!!!
Just found your channel. Just what I've been looking for! I hope your subscriptions continue to grow.
Even if you want to level the frets under string tension, like on the Erlewine neck jig, you still have to adjust the truss rod for a straight neck. Before the advent of double action truss rods I used to built some relief into my necks. But would adjust them straight for leveling.
That’s the right answer (thank god someone knows his stuff here)!!! The Neck Jig isn’t made to work on bowed necks but it’s made to straighten necks with single action truss rods! Sometimes it’s impossible to straighten a neck with single action truss rod without the strings on, and that’s why this Jig exists!
@@lucarenzi8033 The neck jig simulates the neck under string tension. You adjust the fingers under the neck with the strings tuned up. Then you remove the strings. The truss rod will be pressing the neck back against the fingers. You adjust the peghead jack to get the indicators back to zero.
This isn't for getting the neck straight... unless it's straight under string tension. This way you can get the fretboard level under simulated tension.
@@coneyislandguitars Of course the Neck Jig can set the neck in the same "relief" condition as if the strings were on, but what's the point? 99% of the times you work on a neck, you need it to be as straight as possible. Also I have the Dan Erlewine books and every time the Neck Jig is mentioned is for straighten necks that can't go straight by themselves. Another thing to mention is that the Neck Jig can replicate the "headstock traction" of the strings but (as far as I'm aware) not the "compression" applied to the wood of the fingerboard... so it can replicate only half of the neck equation.
@ you need to read up on why Dan invented it. The point is you can level a fretboard with no truss rod or string tension. Then you string it up and you get humps that the rod can’t remove.
Wood is an imperfect material. It’s not uniformly dense.
That’s the reason he invented the jig. You don’t need it for a new neck that’s being fretted for the first time. It’s for older guitars that developed humps from string tension.
I don’t own a neck jig. I haven’t had a need for one. But I’ve met and spent time with Dan back in the 90s and my former building partner studied under him. So from the two of them I’ve heard all about it.
@@coneyislandguitars Things you’re describing are related to the “wood compression” forces I mentioned above…
and maybe I’m missing some hidden feature of the Jig here, but simply looking at how the Neck Jig works…it can’t really replicate the “wood compression” forces… it just can’t. It is great to straighten necks and some other things, but if you have a guitar that has humps under string tension you’re just out of luck. The only way you have to work on that neck is with the strings on in full tension. There are good tools out there to work with the strings on… most of them are from the brand RectifyMaster (I’m not related to that brand, just saying it exists)
I agree 100%. Flat necks generally produce very good fret work. A lot of techs only support the headstock end, then they reef on their sanding beam... That grinds a big hump in the frets and can actually make the guitar play worse... A well supported neck is all you need (sand bags, cork, adjustable pins like you have, etc.)
SkyScraper Guitars
Yeah, the weight of a leveling beam alone is enough to hog off a lot of fret height fast. Even with 600 grit.
No need for elbow grease.
@@sleepyhorndog6004 Truth!
I know this is an older vid, but I'm still going through your backlog as they come up in my recommendations and I agree. I just finished my first complete refret of one of my own personal guitars (I got it used and it had lots of issues and not enough fret left to do a level). When I was done installing the frets I lad it in a neck rest and used a notched straight edge and a light behind it, looking at it from the side to check for spots where the light was coming through the bottom to get it as close to flat on its back and level as I could get it, then methodically did my leveling and it turned out great.
Being a player as well as a builder, I prefer that a neck is as straight as possible during fret leveling, because that is also how I set up the guitars that I play. I have low, low action (1/16" under the high e at the nineteenth fret), super light strings (.008 to .038), do a lot of wide bending, and get no buzzing at all until the frets are quite worn down. My fret leveling tool is a 24" piece of hardrock maple with stick-it sandpaper, and after initial leveling along the length of the neck, all my sanding and polishing is done parallel to the frets. I feel that if I used this long tool to level frets on a bowed neck I would take more metal off the highest and lowest frets, leaving more metal on the frets in the middle. I can't see any advantage that would result from this. Thanks again for your well-considered, low key approach, the antithesis of some guys I will only refer to as "TTG."
In my experience with repairs, yo DO NEED to have the neck under simulated tension, mostly because of popping frets. I've done it straight and then when tension is applied some frets pop out, Now remember I said my experience with repairs, when wood is old fret slots are wide, or new; but with a deficient factory fret job. Gluing the frets is a must in extreme heat cities like mine, wood just moves. And the other point is relief on a guitar: my theory is that a string vibrates in a circular manner, relief facilitates that, avoiding buzzing. Anyway this is my experience and my two cents, again a spectacular video from Highline Guitars.
I like your straightforward approach to this problem. Sometimes YAGNI is the best approach (as in software development), "You Aren't Going to Need It".
Being a luthier myself and having tried the many approaches to this job. I have also found lvl neck equals a quality fret lvl and polish
I totally agree with you on this great videos keep them coming.
I always level after a refret with the board completely flat. My mate brought round a guitar for me to check out. Due to it being a freebie I didn’t want to do the whole half a day levelling crowning, going through all the grits. So I actually spot levelled it under tension. I ran a rocker over the whole guitar with it tuned to concert, marked the rocking frets, the took the strings off, spot levelled the 7 frets, re crowned polished then re checked with the rocker and it was spot on. I thought as I was checking 3 frets at a time so the 10’000 of a relief wasn’t an issue. The guitar played great.Didn’t choke and when it’s ready for a refret I’ll do it the traditional way. But for doing a mate a free favour the time I spent was so significantly less. Plus he keeps more fret material which is a bonus. I’m sure Chris only spot levels I saw in one of his videos to save time and fret material. I think actually if you spend the time on getting the board level and you have done your fall off. The spot level is a great time saver if it’s circa 7 frets or less.
These days, I do a full leveling during the initial assembly stage. Later on, when I get to the final setup of the guitar, I'll do just a spot leveling.
@@HighlineGuitars ah I’m going by one of your old videos then. I still completely agree the more time you spend on getting the fingerboard perfect the less metal you loose on the frets. Plus it does speed up the levelling process as you’re hopefully skimming the tops “in theory” a old neck is different to a guitar you’ve built for sure though.
I think leveling frets with some relief on the neck would only be right if you could simulate the exact relief the neck has with strings on. And even in this case I admit I'm not sure if it would the best option... Mmmm, it makes me think... 🤔
Surely it's best to level the frets with the fingerboard level. Isn't the job of the truss rod to actually counteract the tension of the strings.
Only reason I’ve found that you need neck relief IMO is uneven frets or it’s set up for slide! Keep in mind neck relief throws the intonation out... Any change in the truss changes the scale of guitar. On some vintage guitars this is necessary for easy intonation
That's why u intonate as a last step to a setup.
Michael Hamerin absolutely.. Your average player that does their own string change and truss adj don’t have a clue as to why.. that your actually shortening and Lengthening the scale
I'm having a guitar leveled now on a simulated tension jig. I thought about it and don't like that idea. If you level the frets on a straight plane, the frets will be on a straight plane whether there is neck bow or not. So a neck slightly bowed in a jig will still have a flat fret plane. So if you want relief you have to bow the neck even more. The only advantage to simulated tension while leveling is if you can't get the neck 100 percent straight. This is all assuming your using a long fret level like 18" or so. It's better to be able to set the neck straight and level, and keep it level after strung up. If more bow is necessary give more bow. The fret plane is something nobody ever thinks about, level is level, regardless of what the neck is doing. And you'll wear down the first and last frets unnecessarily by simulating tension.
I agree with what you have said in this video 100%...!
Oh gosh! I love the way you explain things and the subjects you touch.
One thing I've never done is fret leveled a scalloped fretboard.
If you've done it, would you be so kind and share with us/me how you check the fretboard's flatness in this case?
Thanks. 😊
It's not possible to reliably test a scalloped fretboard for flatness that I am aware of. You can, however, use a precision straightedge to check how flat the frets are. Unfortunately, this approach has limited usefulness since the frets themselves probably aren't level yet. If the fretboard was glued to the neck, you can use a precision straightedge to check how flat the glue seam is. Again, this approach has limited usefulness since the scalloped surface may not be consistent from fret to fret.
Thanks, Chris! I feel better about my simple methods in leveling the frets.
Had a few nice builds Plek'd, watched a hundred videos, bought a book.until I had a $600 Chinese made acoustic that I love but wasn't willing to spend $350 pleking. So I notched straight edge it flat, marked em, hit it with a 600 grit diamond plate till the lines were gone. The fall off was going up, so I hit it with the 300 grit plate first till it was falling off, 600 plate. Then I got a $10 triangle file. Knocked the handle off, diamond plate the corners smooth, mark the tops again, triangle filed the crown back. Rolled the fret ends, sanded to 3000? Polished em with a Dremel and auto polish. Sanded the bottom of the bridge saddle till the action was similar to an electrical guitar and I was over it first try. Now that my acoustic has the action of a finely tuned electric, I love it even more. No fancy jigs or files or anything . and I told myself afterwards , after all the anxiety and contemplating, that's all there is to it? Now I don't want to spend $350 pleking anything. High end or low end. Of course now I have a special crowning file, micro mesh, etc etc. That I probably don't need. The hardest part is I am practically blind and I can hardly see the thin line after crowning. Think if I really had a troublesome back bow or a twist a simple under string levelling beam would do the trick. Really not a lot to it. The real advantage of the plek is a shop can bust out 10-20 level jobs in a day.
Spot On! 40 years of playing and working on my own guitars
A Flat board makes all the difference, even for my customers If they like that little bit of bow I can put it in with the trust rod. Well done sir
Enjoyed that vid thanks. You probably already know this but Dan Erlewine also advocates for a flat neck with no relief. It makes a lot of sense to me personally so I appreciate you sharing your thoughts on the subject.
Just bought a natural Affinity Squier Telecaster and am upgrading some things as well as working on the neck. This neck was flat, maybe even bowed backwards slightly as a straight edge was off the neck on the two ends slightly. I heard your theory regarding how players adjust relief in the neck to avoid buzzing and you mentioned that there was another way to go about fixing the issue but didn’t elaborate. Maybe do another video giving us an option. I’m just learning luthier work on my own guitars but it seems if you’re going to level the frets that the fretboard needs to be flat. I would think that the curvature caused by trusted adjustments done afterwards is a separate piece of the tone, action and intonation setup. You’d want the fret tops at the same height as each other from the fretboard surface regardless if it bows concave slightly. Just a new inexperienced perspective on it.
ive torchered my share of bent necked cheapies from used stores. mostly cure intonation first by redoing the bridge. that may only mean easy or worse, but also set basic string height. to really have it easy, and moveable tail pieces make it so. best to get all that cured first, then string 'er up and play some.
best i read was that when a string vibrates, a very stretched pointy ended cone forms that measures fattest at the 1/2 span. so clearance beyond the 12th fret adds dissonance, but a bit of bow to there gives air. so i often prefer to work a partially finished inst. strung and tuned; then detune/prop strings away and finish the buzzy frets and stuff. l guess its really about paralleling an ellipse but heavier strings take more room too. closest reasonable action basis starts here.
I made my own neck jig years ago and used it with great sucess. But I also found out years ago that it was a lot of unnecessary work. So I no longer use as a regular thing. However when using a jig the neck still needs to be flat/straight. You would not want to simulate relief in the neck and then sand it with a flat beam that would create a back bow once out of the jig. Also I started out using a dead flat neck on my first guitars but it's impossible to get a low, 4/64, string height without buzz without some relief in the neck. I don't use neck relief as a cop out for a bad set up. .080 as a rule. I do use the fret jig when doing compression fretting on old Martins that don't have adjustable truss rods. I agree a good fret job is miles ahead of the plek, not a fan.
and once in the jig. how is it flat/straight? as it is simulating string tension... is not the point of the jig to level th frets with simulated tension, therefor with a beam ,no matter what would happen if it was relased
@@dannyjonze, Hi Danny, the point is to flatten the neck out under string tension and then take the strings off and re-establish the flat neck with the head jack and the nut strap. Without changing the truss rod so when set the neck is still exerting the same stresses. Watch the Dan Erlewine video he explains it very well. Heck somewhere in my videos there's one showing how to use the jig.
yeah I totally agree, I have always set my guitars up with no relief, the good ones set up beautifully with the lowest action in the world and dead on perfect intonation, the slightly less good ones would start to struggle right around 0.003 mm of relief and that's literally the thickness of a paper. relief is over rated if your builder made sure your neck and frets are perfectly level you shouldn't need any.
Music man are leveling the fretboard (not the frets) with some back bow tension on the trussrod.
That give a bit of adjustability to get a correct relief when you are using slinky strings.
Otherwize the neck is to rigid to bend even if you loosen the trussrod all the way.
Hi Chris (as an enthusiastic ameteur) -
I've found that giving a little neck relief can have an advantage with respect to the elcectronics especially of a neck pickup.
If by means of the relief, the string height is a little higher, using neck relief, for example on a telecaster. The higher register notes on the neck can make proximity to the neck p/up (not so much bridge), significantly closer. The shorter arc of the string induces less output when the neck is straight, and notes are fretted in the upper register quieter. The trick is to have the neck p/up set high so it is very close to the strings on the top fret. In the lower positions this evens out volume also.
I cut the nut slots very low, (this improves intonation in the first 4 positions), surprisingly, a little neck relief can raise the action around the open position without compromising the intonation. At least my tuner always seems to confirm this.
I agree totally... only makes sense.... If you have a perfectly straight and level fret board ... everything "should " work ok ..... if not tighten the trust rod ... sometimes things are made more difficult than need be
At 10:20 I’ve learned from working on the gulf coast for 10yrs that players who frequently play both indoor and outdoor gigs goin from no relative humidity to 100% humidity that relief allows for acclimation between the 2. I learned real quick on some of the first set ups I did, I quickly learned that I had to adapt my understanding of what is correct vs what is best depending on circumstance.. Just the low pressure storm fronts that move through will quickly change every guitar on my wall... I assume manufacturers know this well and is the reason “factory specs” (I hate that damn phrase when talking about guitars) calls for relief
I played the Eastern half of the USA in the 70s. Every time we played in Ocean City MD, I had to adjust the necks on my wooden guitars and also had to adjust the relief on the bass player's 4-str. Precision. When we went back inland, we had to re-adjust the necks to the lower humidity. We played other gigs near the Atlantic ocean and the Gulf of Mexico, never really had to make relief adjustments like we did in Ocean City.
@We all - That's why I changed my neck preference to aluminum or graphite composite. No truss rod necessary.
RB I’ve worked on tours all over the US but never have I seen anything like lI do working on the golf coast on the gulf coast... Ocean Springs for crying out loud!
@@thespiritof76.. - "The Golf Coast." I like that. 👍😎
I will bow the neck slightly if I’m getting too much buzz. I’m a drummer first and guitarist second so I have a heavy hand. That’s why I’m learning to refret my own guitars! I go through frets like coffee filters. 😂
Self reliance always makes you a better player. I think I'll put that on a t-shirt!
Flat for levelling. Some relief for playing to let a long string move or travell a greater distance without contacting the central most frets. Towards the highest and lowest frets the string travels a shorter distance so needs less clearance.
Thank you for your insight! Sharing your knowledge really helps a new builder such as myself and is appreciated!
I think the ultimate question is how you set the action on your instruments. If you set the action at 1 millimeter (at the 12th fret high e) or above then you don't need the accuracy that string tension simulation can give you. If, however, you do like action below 1 mil there is no substitute for tension simulation short of a Plek machine. IMHO of course. I enjoy your channel and have learned a lot from it so thank you. I also just picked up cycling so it seems we have similar interests lol
Jordan Dupont I don’t know anyone who setups their guitars at 1mm. That’s seems way too low to be honest. The lowest I’ve ever seen is around 1.25mm and that was low for me. I like 1.5mm on the high E to 1.75 on the low E on Acoustics and Electrics. Classicals I set up a tad higher.
I understand that may be your experience, but it isn’t mine. I have also just discussed this with MAJOR players (John Petrucci being one of them) and Petrucci’s action is actually slightly BELOW 1mm at the12th. Also I know many players that I’ve done work for that have requested their action at 1mm and some even request lower than that. It’s actually the reason some people bring their guitars to me so I can achieve that for them
Jordan Dupont wow that’s crazy I honestly have never seen anyone setup their guitars that’s low. They must have a very light touch because most of the guys I setup for bang on their guitars like crazy. Lol So you believe that the string tensioning jig is a superior method to leveling with the neck flat? I’m very intrigued by what you have said it’s honestly mind boggling to think of action under 1mm with no fret buzz.
Frank Faz yes I do and I would be happy to show you if you’d like. To be clear I think the plek machine is the best (most accurate) method. There’s also another caveat here - new construction like Chris is doing here it’s less important to simulate tension. But yeah the guys (and me) that like that super slammed action have very light touches
Jordan Dupont That would be awesome man, I’m in Texas and I’ve never heard of action that low around here. I’ve been looking for someway to make my fretwork better. The woodworking I got down it’s just fretwork and finishes that still give me nightmares. Lol
I think you’re right on. You are a very interesting person to listen to. I love this video you give a lot of great information. Thanks so much appreciate it.👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼😁🎸❤️😁
One of the prime purposes of an adjustable truss is to provide relief or the correct balance of forces with a given set of strings to render that. For those believing the relief should be hard set into the frets (a bit of a contradiction for fret height itself, an important factor of playability) then just use a massive steel truss in lieu of an adjustable truss from the get-go. Are highways skimmed on their asphalt thickness to make up for dips and bumps? Hardly, it's the base where that's done. Frets are not the devices intended to correct for what a truss should correct for.
If the neck doesn't adjust properly, then the *fallback* option is to try and do at least some of it in the frets, but that's a last option, not a first one.
Please make a video on how to straighten a scalloped neck and how to know if it's straight, including how to level frets on such a neck. Thank you!
but if you level the frets with bow in the neck then you end up with all the frets level when the guitar is strung and that negates the point of having bow in the neck in the first place. the reason for putting bow in the neck is so that the strings can vibrate more freely, but the frets are the only part of the neck close enough to the strings to effect this, so having a bowed neck with completely levelled frets doesn't perform the required task.
Great video! Very insightful and great to listen to as I am spicing up my PRS SE ! Thanks for your thoughts and for educating me!
I found your video very informative. Thank you for sharing.
Great information, thank you! It is so helpful as someone who is just starting out learning basic luthier work to hear your experience and reasoning, not just instructions on how to perform a task. Every single one of your videos I have watched have been super helpful.
My setup is frets level flat then pull a small amount of relief which allows my action to be just a little lower than normal. Here's how I think it works. If I play an open string the full 25.5" vibrates with the largest swing at the 12th fret. Okay say I play on the 5th or 7th fret now and with my relief it pulls further down than it normally would to fret. But it doesn't matter so much because the vibration swing isn't going to be near as much as an open due to the shorter length. There's that sweet spot that makes the strings fret so good and the action is low.
Great advice! I've only levelled my guitars and a couple of other guitars for close friends, and I've only been doing this for a few years on and off, but also like you said about the bow being dependent on the wood type, I've also realised that there might be something in there to do with the tuning, string gauge and even type too! Since thicker strings in a higher tuning don't tend to have as much of a wide rotation as a thinner gauge in a similar tuning, so the area of bow becomes more important for guitarists who may use a certain guitar primarily for the same tuning with thinner gauge strings. I find on set necks/neck-thru guitars they tend to bow more often around the neck joint, which can cause issues for me since I use thinner gauge strings mostly, so I like to give the last few frets a TINY bit of a shelf just enough to give that area of the string room to rotate without buzz whilst keeping the action relatively low and even throughout the length of the board. Bolt-ons I don't usually have that issue with.
Set necks are also usually Mahogany and bolt on necks are usually Maple. Maple is less prone to string tension induced bow.
On the older style necks you can only tighten the truss rod. With it backed off all the way or loose ,you adjust the truss rod just till it feels like there is just a touch of engagement. Then you straighten the frets .When you restring the guitar there will be some relief caused by the string tension.
I've tried dialing in a slight bow from the truss rod to try it and all I found was the higher frets 20 21 22 etc get taken down too much,,straight is the way for me !
I know this is an old video, I only just saw it, but I have a question and answers for you.
Answers first,
Neck jigs are for instruments without adjustable truss rods, plain and simple. The jig is good for stuff like old bar fret guitars where you can't level without the tension simulated, all that is negated by an adjustable truss rod.
Answer 2, relief serves a function I never see spoken about, the less relief, the more the action increses towards the bridge, more relief (to a point) gives a more consistent action height from the 12th to last fret. Its a balancing act, and a lot of times I've found relief at like 10 thousands will give a much more consistent and comfortable action height over the entire neck, than say 6 thousands and the action at the 21st fret is like 20% higher than the 12th fret. All that greatly depends on the neck itself. I hope that makes sense.
Now question, on very thin or "flexy" necks where the truss rod tends to start pulling the head back before the middle of the neck is perfectly straight, do you personally adjust to a happy medium of head drop and centre relief, or do you choose one over the other, being that it is never going to hurt for the first fret to be slightly higher than the rest?
I tend to go for the happy medium, straight as I can without the head dropping, then level it.
Just interested what others do in that situation
Great observations. I can tell you are experienced. To answer your question, I reinforce my necks with carbon fiber which eliminates that very problem.
@@HighlineGuitars thanks👍
As you said I think some of these things get over-thought.
Also, just a bonus tip I've worked out after doing a couple of guitars😉, is that a simple way of working out the base line for the relief that a particular neck needs to be happy, is just tune it up and play and open A chord, and progressively tighten the truss rod until the D & G strings start to buzz when fretting the 2nd fret and strumming reasonably hard, and just back it off until the fret buzz stops.
Thats basically the perfect relief for that neck.
There is very in-depth reasons why that works, but for sake of simplicity, you are straightening the neck to the point where you are almost into back-bow, the fret buzz is the indicator, by setting it using the 2nd fret you are automatically taking care of the frets beyond the 12th as well.
Like I said before, it's all a fine balancing act, there is no perfect answer or number.
So right on this one . Let’s go full robot with The PLEK . I have worked on hundreds of PLEKED guitars, and guess what They’re so inconsistent All over the place. All the top Gibsons are PLEKED but some are horrible some are good.
I've heard that from other repair guys as well.
if you put some relief in you can be sure not to get a backbow in case the neck moves a little.
i think it is a good safety measure to achieve a setup which will work without adjusting the truss rod very often. there are necks that move. unfortunately i have one in my favorite guitar.
Hi. I am new to the channel and love it. I have a question I haven´t found an aswer for. I have two compound radious guitars with richlite fretboards. I had noticed too much fretbuzz with low action and wanted to improve that. I am almost sure the frets need some levelling as when they were installed there was virtually no fretwork done to them. I tried to streighten up the neck using the trussrod and a notched straight edge to check it but I never get a straight fretboard, that's on any of the two guitars. It seems the only way the notched straight edge won't rock over the fretboard is if it has a lot of relief. If a try to get no space between the fretboard and the notched straight edge, it can only make contact with more or less half the neck ( form frets one to tweleve more or less) and then you can see a gap that increases beyond that point. Can a notched straight edge be used with compound radius guitars? Is it possible both necks are warped? Sorry if my English is a little rusty. Greetings from Colombia.
Sorry, but I don't know. I don't bother with compound radius fretboards.
I agree that the slight bow some players like is indeed because they simply have gotten used to that geometry of the neck and then they deem that as the correct feel of the neck. It always amased me that the smallest turn of the truss rod nut can change the stiffness of the strings and they feel on certain guitars. I dislike necks that have a higher action in the middle going up to the 12-15 frets and then too low going up to the 22nd frets ect. I like a low action and smooth transition getting ever so slightly higher at the heel of the neck but too low makes them feel harder to play and too high is also not ideal. My friend had an Ibanez floral Jem that was PLEKED and the action was utterly perfect. I now own that 1990 floral Jem in pristine condition and I am seeking a guitar tech guy who can do this guitar again as it was when my friend owned it. No buzzes but low for slick fast playing but not too low that I can't dig in and get some finger flesh under the strings. I also love tall frets but haven't really tried SS frets yet. I have played an ESP with SS frets and the bends were effortless and I loved the high end twang that SS frets have slightly more than N/S fret wire. I wish SS frets have the same choice as Dunlop wires do like the 6505 and the tall but slightly narrow wires. I wish their was also a system that reduced the sharpness that guitars suffer from as they can't intonate correctly. The sharpness is always from the nut to around the 7th fret area. Maybe fret wave tech is the answer.. as if I tune my guitar to a perfect Dmaj chord then Amaj is always out by quite a lot and this really hurts my ears as the maj 3rds sound sour to me. I think an overhang of those frets could help this problem but nobody has made special frets like this with a normal tang but a wider fret that flattens or sharpens specific frets would be awesome.
"[W]e tend to overanalyze and ovethink things into oblivion, because it really isn't that complicated." If truer words about guitar matters were ever uttered, I don't know what they would be. Nicely said, sir.
Man what a great vid with great information!
Too many things in play at once to use a tension jig like bridge/saddle height , the nut itself ( that's the most important part how the nut is cut ) . Too deep of nut slots can create fret buzz that usually can't be fixed without upsizing string gauge . Another is environment. Fret level a guitar in winter in Alberta Canada here can get you really nice low action with minimal fret buzz because it so dry . Along comes spring and it's a fret buzzing rollercoaster price of crap . Best way to fret level a guitar is the way the customer wants it or if it's your guitar the way you like it . Unless the necks warped beyond repair it's usually a simple straight forward process that takes a few hours .
I guess my own reasoning for a bit of forebow / relief "in theory anyway" is the fact that the open string travels more in the middle or arcs, and that forebow follows this same shape as you know. Mind you, sometimes it doesn't seem to work at all and it's something I could never get down consistently. I've aways used the test of a finger on around the14th fret and first while plucking it allowing the string to vibrate freely. Wood is very inconsistent and reacts differently under stress as you also mentioned too, It may arc more towards the headstock or closer to the body. I agree about fret work on a level board first.
It’s true that the open string tables more in the middle. But optimizing for the open string vibrating can cause problems when you fret that string. Open, the greatest travel is over the 12th fret. Fret the 12th fret, and the greatest travel is now over the up bowed high frets, if you have relief.
Great info, Thank you.Cheers.
The only guitarist I’ve came across wanting a slight bow had the same basic reason for the bow. Both stated that in a stage performance situation, if the neck was straight at the beginning of the concert, the neck seemed to get an up bow causing buzzing and sometimes sounding like a dead string. So, they wanted an under bow to compensate. I was always told to introduce the instruments into a new environment as soon as possible, so they could acclimate .
Very interesting point. Thanks for sharing. That might make a good topic for a future video.
Level the frets when the neck is flat. Action is more a result of the relationship between the nut and the saddles. Relief can achieve a similar result but as you said, isn't the ideal way to go.
Love your videos, Thanks for sharing your hard earned knowledge. In the case of non professionals like myself, might a neck that’s not completely supported deflect slightly during leveling throwing the level job off slightly? Where a neck jig would hold it straight during leveling even if a but too much downward force we’re applied with the beam or file, resulting in a better job?
If you want to level with string tension, you could try the Katana levelling system, it has the strings still attached on the guitar while levelling.
The Katana leveling system has been around for a while, but it doesn't seem to have caught on the way I would have thought. I was going to try it myself, but other guys I know who have used it advised me not to waste my money.
The Katana works extremely well.
@@HighlineGuitars The Katana leveling system is a genius invention. It needs to be used properly, but it works great. I started with the flat fretboard and straight bar system and I was satisfied. I also self-built a neck jig, similar to the Stewmac's one (the concept is very simple). But when I discovered and got the Katana, I would never get back to other systems. Give it a try. It's worth the money
@@HighlineGuitars Hi, You can ask Davide Bissoli ( The Mad Genius behind the Katana and other designs ) to lend You a Katana for testing, if You like it You can buy it, if not just return it, He has also a nut file called littlebone has the shape of a bone that crowns the frets perfect without worry of modifying the fret height, I own 29 guitars and after having done two of My guitars boutique setups that included fret leveling on the best Guitar Repair Shop in town I figured that I had to do it myself because of costs related, I know how to setup and repair the electronics, but I did not have the tools for fret leveling and crowning tools etc.... So I started looking around and found Rectify Master Videos and website ( name of the company ), saw some videos from Davide and from others who dare testing it and gave it a try, long story short, the Guitar Repair Shop with all the tools including Stewmac Neck Jig and traditional tools take about 4 and a half hours to level and crown a 22 fret guitar, I ordered the Katana and littlebone to crown frets and
did My first leveling and crowning in 1 hour and a half, the guitar is a cheap Cort guitar and ended with lower playing action without buzzing than my Gibson Les Paul Custom
without experience I did a similar work than the Guitar Repair Shop and in less time If You give Yourself a chance You can find a very useful tool, from the other guys that have tried out the Katana it looks tht they have achieved similar or better results using the Katana, just my two cents, great channel, I have learned a lot with Your insightful videos, thanks.
Trying to level under tension just adds another variable that is unnecessary to the set up. Different string gauge, different playing styles, different truss rod tension -- all affect the neck. Just level with the neck perfectly flat and then adjust from there. At least you know the frets are level.
@ConManliness No. The level of the frets is different from neck relief. You want the frets absolutely level when the neck is absolutely straight. Neck relief (created by the string tension) then allows space for the sting to vibrate. If you put relief in the neck and then level the frets -- well first of all you'd have to do it a LOT since neck relief changes over time/temperature/humidity/string gauge, and secondly you would (unnecessarily) remove a lot of fret material on the upper and lower frets just to get back to level. If you want your frets heights to provide zero relief when the neck is under tension, just tighten the truss rod and play with a straight neck. Hope I explained that effectively.
Just subbed your channel - have enjoyed your videos. Reading the comments, it seems there's plenty of agreement to this being done dead level. With that the case, it seems to me the Erlewine jig is unnecessary although, if you have a single-action truss rod, you do need some sort of jig to straighten the neck from a backbow if it has one after the strings are off and it is on it's back. You can make something simple with wood and threaded rod. If you have a double-action truss rod then you can use that as you have shown here - no jig necessary. Straight is straight. Whether you are in "playing position" or the guitar is on it's back, straight (by the notched straight edge) is straight. Whether the strings are on or the strings are off, straight is straight. In my opinion this has been way over-thought as you note in the video.
I would say, if you did want to level with slight relief in the neck, then the jig would help, but you could also use the notched straight edge with feeler gauges in the middle of the neck. Also, one commenter below noted that neck support during the leveling operation is important which I agree with - you could make an adjustable support for the middle of the neck fairly simply.
This answers a question I have often wondered. If a neck jig produces bow forward or back can’t it be achieved by the truss rod? And if lower frets are desired in the higher notes or down at the cowboy chords, couldn’t it be achieved by applying slightly greater pressure to the beam in those areas? I’m just a hack but I’m here to get better. Thanks for the great info. Glad to find your channel.
I definitely think leveling the frets on a level neck that is straight and flat, is the only way to go. The idea of leveling with any type of curve on the fret board is wacky. I've watched a few videos of these techniques, and came away speechless and confused... I thought about it, but came to the conclusion that it makes no sense.
As far as relief goes, the ideal situation for me is a dead flat neck. I believe you will always get your best action across the fretboard. Since the neck is wood, the only reason I would add a small amount of relief is to protect against front-bow, which could happen transporting the guitar to a gig, or even during the gig. It's just a little bit of insurance that it stays playable. A small change of temperature, the next thing you know it's choking out all over the place. Of course, if you like higher action, then this entire conversation / thread might not concern you.