NO MECHANICS AVAILABLE! Mike Busch on How to Survive the Mechanic Shortage
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- Опубликовано: 23 май 2023
- Mike Busch is arguably the best known Airframe & Powerplant Mechanic in general aviation.
He founded Savvy Aviation in 2008 to provide aircraft maintenance-management and consulting services to thousands of aircraft owners, including prebuy management, innovative engine monitor analysis and 24/7 breakdown assistance that is essentially AAA for GA.
We talk with Mike about the mechanic shortage, how we got here, and how you can ensure that your plane remains airworthy in a world where finding an available mechanic is becoming more and more of a challenge.
“SocialFlight Live!” is a live broadcast dedicated to supporting General Aviation pilots and enthusiasts during these challenging times. Register at SocialFlightLive.com to join the live broadcast every Tuesday evening at 8pm ET (be sure to join early because attendance is limited for the live broadcasts). 
Развлечения
What do you expect is going to happen if you don’t offer a salary that people can survive on much less actually get ahead?
Most successful business owners know that you must pay your workers enough to live on. Aircraft owners are an exception to this rule.
Working on a high dollar airplane is a privilege. Mechanics should be happy making minimum wage just to have the privilege of working on expensive airplanes. 🧐
@@jamesburns2232 lol
I went through A+P school and got my license in the mid 90's. I went to work for a local FBO for a couple of years, then I took a position as lead mechanic in a aero-med operation for a few years. After five or six years working as an A+P I realized that, in the area that I wanted to live, that it wasn't possible to earn enough for me to live the life that I wanted to live, and that isn't a very high bar in my opinion!
So I wound up going back to the career that I had been at before deciding to go to A+P school and wasting 2.5 years and a lot of money on a license that wasn't worth the cost to get ! The sad part is, a licensed A&P working in general aviation isn't making hardly any more now than they were in the 90's. What adult with a family can afford to work for $20.00-25.00 per hour, when they can do literally any other mechanical trade and make double that or more ?
But "no one wants to work anymore" amirite?
I'm in a similar position, but the industry that I come from doesn't exactly pay much better and I blew out my back doing it. The goal is to end up at an airline, the backup plan is to work for everyone's favorite incompetent aircraft manufacturer, and plan C is to try and use the A&P to move into another sensitive technician's field.
Plan Z is to buy a cheap motorcycle and enjoy the American wilderness, for reference.
I haven't heard those hourlies for A&P certified, your getting 30-35 starting average now a days.
@@theoc007 Nope. 6 years experience now and I'm at $30/hr. $18 when I started in 2017. Nobody makes $30 out of A&P school just because they got their license. Also, I have an aerospace engineering degree (that's a whole other story about educational investments that I'm not going to cover in a RUclips comment), but the point is I have more leverage to negotiate than the average mechanic. No, 30-35 is not the average starting pay. You can make that starting out only if you have the right connections. Starting pay is $20-26 if all you have is your license and nobody knows who you are.
Former jet engine tech in air force, (12 years) more money in automotive especially lately, plus for every plane/plane shop there's 5000 cars/shops
I've been a GA mechanic for 25 years. Same shop. I can see this issue first hand. It makes zero sense that car shops charge more than aviation shops and car mechanics make more than aircraft mechanics. You can't pull over on cloud 9 when your plane breaks. KAPA is one of the busiest GA airports in the US, but it will take a year to get an annual scheduled.
@jerryboden2671 the thing I've got going for me is I love what I do. Aviation work doesn't pay my bills. The welding and work I do on Hot Rods is where I make my money.
@jerryboden2671 well that sounds sweet. Good money for sure. Do you enjoy the work?
It would be cheaper for me to park a narrow body jet on the tarmac than it would for me to park a 40' sailboat here, lmao.
I had a friend who was a GA mechanic in the 1970's and he made $6,000 per year working 6 days a week. These days, nobody will work 6 days a week as a GA mechanic for $6,000. Labor rates have gotten out of hand. 🤑😝
@jerryboden2671too bad he will be 500 lbs in a few yrs. I’ve never seen a healthy trucker
It's a broader problem across various industries. Either pay more or reduce the cost of living. Mechanic pay is on par with minimum wage jobs now, neither of which will afford a house purchase, or having a family, or retirement. Working at UPS requires no degree, being an AMT does. A broader approach to the problem would be to regulate Blackrock or foreign national speculation of real estate, or to price basic commodities affordably.
For a less cynical take, I'm simply not willing to sign off on the required liability for the offered wages in GA.
Owners on the Savy program cause the shop a huge headache. It's very very time consuming to go over the annual list with several people and going back and fourth with savy and owners. Bringing the owner into the shop and going over the annual is 5 times faster than completely making a list of times and parts cost on each item then sending it to savy, having to negotiate. Savy is a good idea in theory but in the real world it's a pain in the butt for shops to deal with because of the time it takes to go thru savy
So true. My experience as well
I quit working on anybody’s plane when the say “ savy aviation says”. I tell them that Savy aviation isn’t the one signing the work off.
I vote for the owner repairman certificate; great idea!
I agree. They could be authorized to take he A&P testing for initially limited to one aircraft then after experience become a regular A&P.
Gross. I've seen tons of "owner mtx" in GA and on my own c150. The problem isn't when they cobble there own aircraft and fly themselves, it's 10 years down the road when someone else buys it and loads there family and your cobbled wiring job or flight control rigging kills someone who assumed all mtx was done by a certified professional.
To encourage a private club A&P you need to offer $150-200k. To be completely responsible for as you suggest (10) airplanes that is a lot for one person. What really should be changed is the annual inspection time interval. Most planes fly 100hr a year. Just because a calandar year goes by, doesn't mean a plane needs to looked at again, it should be based on hobbs hour.
Mike, I've got the perfect advice to help improve your mental and verbal processing. Start eating at least 12oz of wild blueberries a day (frozen is best), even better put them in a smoothie with some spinach and kale as well. It helped me tremendously and my arthritis went away to boot!
This is one of the best discussions on mechanic shortage I have heard. Thanks gentlemen.
Having been the owner of a piper Dakota for many years I decided to fly LSAs. I solved the maintenance backlog problem by getting my FAA LSRM-A license (Light Sport Repairman-Airplane). I am a Mechanical Engineer by profession, so that was helpful to my situation.
Because of liability, I only work on my own airplane.
I wish there was a way to be certified to work on small piston engines like in most ga aircraft and say a fabric cert and aluminum. Instead it’s a whole 2+++ year process and you need to know turbines composite ect. If it was say a 2 month course for small engine it would be possible for so man up more people like myself. It would save us money and allow us to help friends for pocket money.
Really nice piece of property…
Well suited for a Nat gas operation.
Some Competing companies have to work near the arctic circle…. And have to plan shipping through an ice floe.
Go TELL!
I truly appreciate Mike Busch. Thanks for the interesting podcast. 👍
I agree and appreciate a lot of mike's info/opinions. However he needs to re-evaluate his desire and perspective that flat rate and insentives for less maintenance are good ideas. These pillars of the automotive industry are crumbling and have driven consumer trust and satisfaction into the ground. Imo the same will be true with aircraft.
No mechanic is going to work for 60K a year for 10 planes when he can work at a shop for that same amount plus as much overtime as he wants. We can work 7 days a week 24/7 if we want at KAPA because there is that much work. It's unbelievable how much work there is
What do you mean work for 10 planes when you going to work at a shop for the same amount? What are you comparing
@CessnaPilot99 they were talking about having a mechanic work for 10 airplane owners only and those 10 owners pay the mechanic a total of 60K. Split between the owners. At a GA shop (atleast where I am) there is tins of work and a mechanic can make 60K no problem but the better thing is at a shop there is overtime. Here there is so much work you can work as much overtime as you want and make as much as you want. Thier idea has a mechanic work for 10 guys getting paid salary and no chance of making overtime pay while working overtime hours
@@Airplanefish ah ok I missed that part. 60k is alright but won't make anyone get ahead...cant even afford to buy a house in the majority of the USA on that wage.
His solution instead of maintenance shop charging more money and in turn paying their A&Ps accordingly is to not do AS much maintenance and just on condition of need. Got it. Yet it is expected for his or any A7Ps to put their name on the sign offs and risk manslaughter if something were to go wrong. Why cant this legend understand the risk reward isn't balanced.
As a mechanic it makes 0 sense for me to work for GA when I can make 2 or 3 times more at a major airline while doing less work over there.
48.50 if the gear motor doesn’t skip enough gear tooth’s to show timing discrepancy, leave it alone don’t overhaul it 😂
At 36:49 - as a layperson unrelated to the aviation industry, I'd be terrified if my airplane mechanic was paid $60k / year. My local Oakland, CA Toyota car dealer charges customers $200/hour shop rate.
Lol most gay are paid far less than that as the planes they work on fly over your house!
In the beginning, you commented that shops are doing "everything they can" to hire mechanics...
They are skipping the most obvious- pay well.
And a close second- quality of life/satisfaction.
I've worked on planes since mid '90s. I am now down to occasional work for friends, and, very rarely, an annual inspection.
Mediocre pay, minimal or no benefits, minimal equipment, herding unlicensed mechanics, and an expectation to live "on call" are the norm. Not attractive at all.
Airlines would likely be an improvement, but not without relocation or an unbearable drive.
An additional negative is the condition of many GA aircraft, whose owners have been "gifted" with lenient inspections for years or decades, and expect it to continue.
Many of the staffing shortages could be solved by eliminating the relatively new requirement for the 3000 logged hours. Many pilots would go through the old A&P certification if it weren’t for this. In my case I should have gone to the certification process back before all the new requirements. Now I’m starting at 0 hours and have logged over 2000 hours but it’s just a hurdle. FAA should have a waiver for older guys like me who have all the experience but just didn’t log it. If I pass the same test then what’s the difference if I’ve logged 3000 hours?
80% of GA airplanes are undermaintatained. Not over maintained.
Where did you get your information that 80% of airplanes are under maintained? Every airplane gets an annual inspection and it has caused many inspection plate holes and fasteners to get squashed thinner and more fragile just from over inspecting. 🧐
Just got my a&p and the offer i recieved for the amount of responsibility is not worth it. Lucky my friend referred me to work as a elevator mechanic. Not going to be working for shit pay. I regret doing trade school.
The risk and stress is not worth the pay and consequences. I am only doing it mainly because I haven't transitiioned to anything else and I am close to full retirement. Even so, my job is less risky than a regular shop dealing with outside customers. It's a very labor intensive skill.
One schedules dental cleaning/check-up in 6 month intervals. Annuals should be also on this automatic timetable. Get a reminder card before you fly away with the date of next annual. The only question is what will be equivalent of the the complimentary tube of toothpaste, toothbrush and dental floss ;-)
I am very interested in the specific points involved in too much maintenance controls
Not only is it a shame an AMT can make more money across the street at the GM dealer, but it’s equally a shame that GM technician is barely making $50k/yr, if that. The car dealers are facing labor shortages too. Nobody wants to do that hard of a job, when a plumber or electrician can make six figures.
Preach it Mike! Any updates on the "proposed" LSA rules changes including updated weights, seats, speeds, etc? A limited repairman's cert is covered under the LSA regs if a C172, PA28, etc are covered under the proposed LSA rules that would help? Keep up the amazing content!
I wish there was a way to relinquish/convert your aircraft's type certificate... Effectively changing it to a experimental but falling under experimental rules (like part 91 only)... When you go to sell it then you know it's a part 91 only airplane that's been maintained by the owner... That includes non-pma non-tso parts.... A guy can dream.
Anyone can do mechanical work on their a/c, but you have to find a licensed A&P to sign off on said work. That's how shops get away with using unlicensed mechanics.
All hail Mike!
I have a honda lawn mower that's surging ( not the jet) can some have a look at it that charges a $100 an hour or less ? Small engine shops at $140/hr, car dealer is at $220.
And the mechanics at the car dealership MAY be getting 30-35 hour !
80% billable on GA aircraft is not normal. It's more like 65 or 70%.
Also, probably no health care, retirement or vacation days.
Aging aircraft is a massive problem. We get aircraft that are in such terrible condition. They take thousands to repair. We now have new owners purchasing aircraft that are 40 years or more old and think they are purchasing a new aircraft. Disagree about the over maintained comment. The fleet is going downhill fast. One item is fluid lines are not being replaced when they should be.
Back again. As my comments before. A&P 's acquired this skill thru military training. Now, the complex aircraft systems are either airframe or Engine training for work. FAA certification is A&P as on my ticket. Civilian schools are passable, and $$$. However, all aircraft are not alike, and the A&P IAW FAA must have additional training to practice the IA inspection only. Me, 93, Aviation, name the airplane, I've worked it.
G,day Jeff from Sydney Australia. Great program with Mike. He makes an interesting point. On one hand you have demand of maintenance to meet regulatory compliance. On the other hand, human characteristics and knowledge to test to ensure safety to the public.
In Australia we moved to CBT competency based training nationally. In theory; 'jump on the merry-go-round and jump off at any time with an academic transcript. Jump back on until reaching the qualification. O'yes pay for enrollment. This in partnership with industry was the new model. In relation to the construction industry the worst decision ever made. Just look at the housing unit building faults, still in resolution and legal action.
"Time is money" don't they say?
🌏🇭🇲
Increase pay and provide an initial starter ser of tools. Why is it so dreaded AMT's make a good salary?
What’s funny is diesel mechanic’s make more than Avation Tec’s. Also look what job would be harder and your more responsible for lives. I hate paying to get my plane fixed but I believe there under paid and I also see lots leaving.
Piston general aviation is in a bad place as far as maintenance is concerned. The reputation of low wages and poor working conditions proceeds it at A&P schools. No graduates from the school down the street are going into GA piston. The shop I left doesn't even offer health insurance anymore. The guys there are approaching retirement and the owner of the shop is just going to close the doors.
I've worked with customers that are Savvy clients. The way they handle the estimates is reasonable. I don't like doing research with PDF files, it is very slow. Also I don't know if they are complete. Is a page missing ? Any customer should have an estimate for work to be done, with updates for hidden damage or difficulties found during the course of repairs. That is true for any business.
Mike, why don't you produce a flat rate database for repairs. Make one for each model. I believe I have one from Piper for the Cherokee. It is quite old.
Mechanics (with a license) should be paid $40.00 plus benefits.
More than that. That's only 80k
If U Pay, They will come, simple enough.
The owners don't get that logic.
@@winstonsmith6204 they will, or they can get their own credentials and work on their planes. Easy enough. They pay either way.
Me, A&P chuck,(IA) AIR FORCE RETIRED, Army AF, Keesler AFB, 9 mos A&Engine. 1st, Military only is specialized complex Aircraft or engine, not qualified to FAA test for A&P cert. never ' expires '. Me, 92, B- 29 flight crew, over 2500 log flight hrs, Korea war, at Yokota and Misawa AFB Japan. Bombed all the rice fields in North Korea. A&P to qualify on all " 10 or 12 aircraf systems " is total A&P must know, or the aircraft's manual, 12 month school, $$$. Sign the log book " Air Worthy ". More story, but, point is A&P's $$, is and owners is too much. A&P hope all 4 aircraft corners fly safe. Name the airframe, flew or repaired same. Enjoyed your show Mike, great stuff to my past. Right now , I help with my sons 172, to keep it Airworthy. O yes, NASA shuttle and retired. Hope, see my point, the $$ is short, for our work.
true
We are all human. We make mistakes. That's why erasers wear away before the pencil lead. With that reality, fear of litigation kept me from actually using my license.
I have been holding off making this comment for some time now....
I have listened to many of Mr. Busch's video's on aircraft maintenance for the last 2 or 3 years and there is one assertion that is repeated over and over again that is simply not correct.
Mr. Busch must live in an alternate universe.... His repeated assertion that GA aircraft are "over-maintained" is completely incorrect...
He seems to presume that the average, owner-operated Part 91 GA aircraft is maintained in accordance to Part 135 or Part 121 standards. He seems to presume that the average Part 91, GA owner-operator is willing (and able) to spend unlimited funds on their aircraft and, as a result, all the shops are tied up preforming unnecessary major maintenance / component replacements.
Maybe that is the situation in Southern California where all Malibu millionaires are operating their 1.5 million dollar Cirrus aircraft, but in the real world, the typical GA owner/operator is very budget conscious and simply does not replace major components / accessories simply because the airframe or component manufacture publication states an hour or calendar limitation.
So, Mr. Busch would have us believe that Part 91 GA owner-operators follow the following conventions:
1) Replace (or OH) our engines at 12 years or TBO (whichever comes first) (this is only required for Part 135 aircraft - Not Part 91)
2) Replace (or OH) our propellers at 6 years or TBO (whichever comes first) (again, only required for Part 135 aircraft)
3) Replace (or OH) turbochargers at 1000 hours TIS simply because the airframe service manual has a note to that effect...
4) Replace all flexible hoses on the aircraft every 8 years simply because the airframe service manual has a note to that effect...
5) Replace (or OH) all accessories (prop governor, fuel pumps, vacuum or pressure pumps, starters, starter adaptors, alternators, oil coolers, magnetos) at the component manufacturer published intervals - regardless of actual condition or functionality.
6) Replace other life limited parts (tires, brake disks, brake pads, bearings, heaters, de-ice boots, etc) at published intervals regardless of condition....
Of course, I have not even bothered to mention anything about avionics and instrumentation......
Mr. Busch, THE REAL WORLD SIMPLY DOES NOT OPERATE LIKE THIS.... PLEASE STOP SAYING THIS. IT MAKES YOU LOOK FOOLISH.
In the real world, we perform the necessary inspections, we perform the necessary cleaning, lubrication, and servicing, we comply with the AD's, and then we repair whatever we absolutely MUST do to get the aircraft out of the shop and back in service. We often defer as many repairs as possible just to get the aircraft out of the shop. And yes, that also means that we do NOT replace cylinders just because they are below 60/80. I will live with a cylinder at 40/80 if the engine is running strong without any other significant issues.
I own and operate a 1958 Cessna 180A and a 1978 Piper Seneca II. The cost (and time) to maintain, service, repair, (and occasionally upgrade) these aircraft is high enough without performing unnecessary replacements and overhauls.
So, please stop making the assertion that the GA mechanic problem would be solved if all of us Part 91 operators would simply stop acting as if we were in a Part 135 or 121 environment. THAT IS NOT THE SITUATION OR THE PROBLEM.
I would love to hear your response to this matter. For that matter, I would love for you to review my logbooks and service invoices and point out all the "unnecessary" maintenance on my aircraft.
Maybe Savvy Aviation could cut my maintenance costs by 50%........
Glad I can do my own maintenance. This situation sucks and is going to impact safety and flight hours. This is a GA killer. We do need the A&P equivalent of BasicMed that allows annuals on simple certed aircraft by lesser trained individuals. Schools could also perform this service under the oversight of an A&P.
I'll be honest here, the bar for an IA cert is only: Hold an A&P cert for 3 years and work as an A&P for the previous 2 before initial application. Much of a lesser trained mechanic than that is a freshly certified mechanic.
Or pay real wages
I got my A&P license and when i got out in the 80's there was no jobs to speak of, unless you were talking $7-8 hour.
I kept looking for jobs while working in heavy industry and food processing. Did lots of interviews of course what did the HR dimwits say.. "oh we want X years of experience"
I said how do you get experience if no one hires anyone? Crickets.
One time i worked for US Airways Express as a mechanic $11.00 to start because the company i was working for closed the doors and i was out of unemployment. I spent 2 years there, nights and weekends 45 minutes round trip drive plus tolls.
Quit to go work welding farm equipment, more $$ and lots of OT.
Never went back to aviation, finished my working career at Hershey Foods making more $$ and OT than i ever would working for any airline.
Indoors, climate controlled, 401k for all hours worked. You could work every weekend if you wanted or just 5 days.
Still waiting the baker TIW mom to come :) 😂
TBH, had I realized that an A&P certificate was aimed towards knowing how to fix 80 year old aircraft I would have passed on it and gone over to diesel. Learn how to fix something that matters in the modern era.
Certificated A&P's should get credit towards becoming pilots and certified pilots should get credit towards becoming A&P's..
I'll grant that pilots could probably stand not taking most of the general section of the exams, but most of the other stuff barely comes up for pilots, and of the things that do, the mechanics involved are generally glossed over in favor of learning how to bring the plane back down safely to get it fixed.
Certificated A&P's who become pilots are not likely to get their hands dirty ever again. Certified Pilots who become A&P's do it to save money on labor working on their aircraft.
The job itself is fun and very interesting, but there is hazing culture and just way too many toxic people who are willing to make your life as miserable as possible for reasons that has absolutely nothing to do with the job...
If somebody with more seniority than you was forced to sleep on the couch the night before, best believe you as an apprentice would be paying for it..
There is a reason why everyone wants an office job and nobody wants to be in trades
Stay far away.. definitely not worth going to school for it
There are more young men and young women who want to become pilots than who want to fix airplanes that are broken or need to be inspected. 🧐
The problem is that people who have plenty of money, can't see paying a mechanic a decent wage. Their idea of a mechanic is some greasy redneck jury rigging everything, and trying to scam people for work that wasn't done. Any person that went through the trouble and training to get an A+P cert. Is worth at least as much as any person with a four year degree, in most cases more. If you guys want to continue to pay aviation mechanics the least you can get away with, you deserve what you get, and all of the problems that come with it.
I'm sure that, as with the pilot shortage, that businesses going along with government mandating what we put in our bodies, hasn't helped the situation much either. There are quite a few of us that would rather be broke and healthy, than employed at time of death !
They Buy a Lamborghini, but want have a maintenance budget of a Toyota.
I stop accepting jobs now. I just tell them my daily rate. If they can pay it, ok. If not, I tell them good luck.
Had a customer bring his airplane in for maintenance. He was bragging about how much he spent on the paint job. Turned out he needed a new magneto. $600.00. The owner had a fit. Called the DOM a crook. Mind you the shop didn’t set the price of the magneto and the shop rate was half of the local Ford dealer.
No mechanics what is the problem...??? Hmmm.... no pay? Noooo that cant be it.
Your cylinder with silicon under the surface was not anywhere near a common occurrence. You guys know that. That is in no way a common thing happening in shops.
Even the producer of this show still thinks mechanics are worth only 60K/year and I provide all the tools (at 36:40) to provide for your hobby. (Work for me and no one else). HA!
Money.
Money.
Money.
Pay the god damn techs what there skills and investment is worth. No other answer matters so stop dancing around trying to find BS excuses or "solutions". Same trash we see in automotive with the same result,"labor" rates keep going higher and higher and yet by "magic" the percentage going to the guys doing said labor gets lower and lower and there are fewer and fewer techs... Shocker!
Pay us or piss off and lose all your customers due to gigantic delays and slipshod work by the skeleton crew off under-trained dullards willing to work for crap pay which is close to where your greed has many of you at this point.
There saved everybody an hour.
Same thing is happening in the cycling industry. Reason why I'm leaving it. Even at $20/hr, it just ain't cutting it.
Luv the job, but lets be real its not worth it. Unless mechanics at all airlines are getting what the pilots are getting then find another field to work in, cuz ur a sucker otherwise
Diesel mechanics and automotive shops minimum $125/hr
Aircraft which FLY in the air! ALOT higher responsibility $85 to $100/hr.
Why do we need to have these topics and discussions its ridiculous just pay us more. They should get paid way better than a diesel tech.
I work at a bicycle shop and we charge $100/hr. None of our customers bat an eye. Aircraft rates should be at least $200/hr. No excuse, IMO.
No shortage of qualified mechanics, just a shortage of qualified mechanics willing to work for poverty wages
How to survive? Heres an option.... Get your a&p... Spend 6m under and active mechanic and fix the shit your self.... Rich people problems....
This guy sounds like a slow talking Sandy Monroe.
The ONLY way to listen to Mike Busch is to set the playback speed to 2.0X. Even then, it is too slow because he repeats the same topic over and over again. An hour video from Savy Aviation could be thoroughly and properly completed in 20 minutes by a professional lecturer.
boomers
Stop requiring A+Ps only to work on planes. You don’t need an AP to work on planes you need it to sign off planes. 1 IA can have 100+ people working under them if they want to.
Let me tell you. I am a general aviation guy here. I have my A&P course done and my Private Pilot's lic. Every time I get to a shop, the main mechanics are selfish and don't want to teach the main things keeping the knowledge limited, not taking away the money that they pay, is not sufficient.
I'm waiting for 🥯, sir~ thanks very much!