It's up to us to save Video Games

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  • Опубликовано: 25 дек 2024

Комментарии • 4 тыс.

  • @PopeTheRevXXVIII
    @PopeTheRevXXVIII Месяц назад +2514

    Piracy is preservation
    The film Industry proved that. Thousands of movies would be lost of somebody hadn't kept a film reel they weren't supposed to.
    Now we're seeing it with Video thankfully faster than with film. Video game history is far better preserved than film because of community efforts.

    • @guyverjay1289
      @guyverjay1289 Месяц назад +34

      No, piracy is piracy.

    • @Matanumi
      @Matanumi Месяц назад +69

      Piracy is a pricing issue

    • @PopeTheRevXXVIII
      @PopeTheRevXXVIII Месяц назад

      @@guyverjay1289 low IQ answer

    •  Месяц назад +238

      @@Matanumi It is a service issue.

    • @jordanwardle11
      @jordanwardle11 Месяц назад +18

      Piracy is NOT preservation.

  • @SomeOrdinaryGamers
    @SomeOrdinaryGamers Месяц назад +1466

    Been playing so many old games recently across PC/Consoles. It's a shame the lengths we need to go to preserve history and then make sure the games out today are playable for generations to come.

    • @ProjectionProjects2.7182
      @ProjectionProjects2.7182 Месяц назад +40

      Indeed it is a shame. No one should have to spend 100$+ just to play an older game. All its doing is gate keeping good games from new players who may enjoy them.

    • @miaisnotmortyick
      @miaisnotmortyick Месяц назад +15

      i like playing pcsx2 ngl

    • @mc-snack3316
      @mc-snack3316 Месяц назад +36

      About 80% of my favorite games were discovered from emulating old games

    • @kvigorita
      @kvigorita Месяц назад +16

      You already know Muda if we all started playing good games again then the market for the current crap they push would die. We would all have a mid level PC and some 8bitdo controllers or whatever. We're at the point where if a good game doesn't hold up with time passing, people just mod it and bring it back to life.

    • @bwlvideos
      @bwlvideos Месяц назад +9

      as a kid my computer was insanely weak so i spent a lot of time playing stuff like Half-Life and emulating n64 games and before. The free discovery of old media should be preserved for the future generations. if we can have libraries for books, films, and music, why can we not have the same for video games? Ultimately, I believe the issue is with the profit and the popularity of the medium today. Until the industry crashes or higher ups leave, nothing will change.

  • @DarkMoe
    @DarkMoe Месяц назад +889

    This is DarkMoe from Flashpoint Archive. For years I think I managed to save some lost to time games. In the end it's always about time and effort. In the case of modern online releases you also have to add the storage for it. Imagine saving multiple builds for example of games like League of Legends. That's a ton of space. And personal backups tend to get lost overtime. I know firsthand with HD crashes, or misplaced stuff

    • @MrKasenom
      @MrKasenom Месяц назад +67

      thank you so much for the efforts youve put into preserving flash gam history, I was able to relive memories from my childhood thanks to flashpoint

    • @kaargen
      @kaargen Месяц назад +35

      Hey, thanks for your efforts on Flashpoint. It really is just about the ideal kind of library.

    • @benji-menji
      @benji-menji Месяц назад +12

      I might be able to find that old parking game that had "welcome to the jungle" as their credits thanks to you.

    • @TrialzGTAS
      @TrialzGTAS Месяц назад +9

      Thank you! I was apart of your Discord for a while

    • @promero14
      @promero14 Месяц назад +2

      Yep, games get bigger and bigger each year.

  • @Channel2S
    @Channel2S Месяц назад +390

    If the concept of a library was created today instead of being established centuries ago, publishers of books would fight tooth and nail to make sure that it could never happen.

    • @mawnkey
      @mawnkey Месяц назад +32

      Tell me how storefronts like Amazon aren't trying to do _exactly_ that with as much media as possible going forward.

    • @lm9029
      @lm9029 Месяц назад +42

      "Pay a monthly fee for the privelege of entering the library even if nothing interests you. Oh and thats on top of buying individual books that you'll ofc get no discount on nor be allowed to keep despite no refunds when we burn the books."

    • @Maximilian1990
      @Maximilian1990 Месяц назад +3

      @@lm9029 this might come as a surprise to you but book libraries usually require you to pay a monthly access fee

    • @GhostDragon123
      @GhostDragon123 Месяц назад

      Thats not "preservation", man. Thats just straight up THEFT!!! Its illegal activity! It like saying a bank robber is "preserving" money!

    • @Nifterific
      @Nifterific Месяц назад +23

      @@Maximilian1990 where? I’ve never once heard of a library that wasn’t a public library. You have late fees and have to pay to replace something you lose, but otherwise they’re completely free.

  • @godhimself9396
    @godhimself9396 Месяц назад +298

    That is why I am thankful for Polish Copyright Laws which states that a medium is legal to download as long as it is not used commercially unless specified

    • @kevinerbs2778
      @kevinerbs2778 Месяц назад +35

      As it should be.

    • @iliketrains263
      @iliketrains263 Месяц назад +50

      thats how it should be everywhere. if they arent willing to make it available and make money on it theres literally zero harm being done to anyone

    • @MrGamelover23
      @MrGamelover23 Месяц назад

      Great. Now they're going to invade Poland.

    • @Nordlicht05
      @Nordlicht05 Месяц назад +2

      Ok my comment went into the, not interesting abyss. Is there a limit to it? I mean keys and, i try to use different words so my comment does not disappear 😂 , a fixed .exe file wich you aren't allowed to use?
      My other comment is there bit only visible when you click on new comments and search for it.

    • @sleepingkirby
      @sleepingkirby Месяц назад +3

      Honestly, the US system was suppose to do that due to first-sale doctrine. But people just kind of wave that away these days.

  • @danielg9275
    @danielg9275 Месяц назад +2751

    If you can no longer buy it, then why aren't we allowed to download and share it.

    • @gligarguy4010
      @gligarguy4010 Месяц назад +67

      So just to confirm, if you can buy it for full price on a current platform then it's wrong to pirate it? Just trying to understand the rules.

    • @wreagfe
      @wreagfe Месяц назад +116

      Why ask for permission?

    • @TheShizzlemop
      @TheShizzlemop Месяц назад +245

      @@gligarguy4010 they didnt post any rules, they simply asked a question.

    • @johnr4836
      @johnr4836 Месяц назад

      Real gamers don't lol​@@wreagfe

    • @livinlicious
      @livinlicious Месяц назад +134

      Don't ask, just save it locally.
      Everyone backup on someone's drive, is another puzzle piece in the archaeology chain.
      We need to keep history alive by preserving the digital footprint of our world.

  • @Lauren_C
    @Lauren_C Месяц назад +291

    Digimon World (PS1) is a game I find myself coming back to time and again, for the past 24 years. There’s still a bit of a community that still plays, mods and live-streams the game (it seems to have gotten more attention overall recently).
    That’s a game that, given its lack of broad popularity, outright would no longer exist without emulation.

    • @Robert_D_Mercer
      @Robert_D_Mercer Месяц назад +11

      ur a G in my eyes. first game I ever owned brand new as a birthay gift. best thing ever man

    • @Matanumi
      @Matanumi Месяц назад +7

      What a great game
      Yeah evolution is still a mystery sometimes for DW1

    • @samuelantoniocastillomeza5034
      @samuelantoniocastillomeza5034 Месяц назад +1

      Of the World saga, Digimon World 3 is my favourite one.

    • @zsedc4
      @zsedc4 Месяц назад +1

      DW2 for me, and the systems that could play it are rapidly failing due to nothing more than age. PSX was a godsend for being able to play it in the modern day.

    • @karbengo
      @karbengo Месяц назад +12

      The only reason i was ever able to complete Digimon World is because of emulation. The PAL version had an infamous bug that would render the game impossible to finish. Thankfully, there is now a community patch that corrects it, but all CD print are forever broken.

  • @blowmonkey51
    @blowmonkey51 Месяц назад +101

    If buying is not owning Piracy isnt stealing.

    • @Kamawan0
      @Kamawan0 Месяц назад

      Are you willing to prove that in a court of law? You’re the little guy in this fight, don’t poke a bear with a stick.

    • @blowmonkey51
      @blowmonkey51 Месяц назад

      @Kamawan0 Dont push it or ill give you a war you wont believe -John Rambo

    • @jetlox
      @jetlox 29 дней назад +1

      @@Kamawan0 when they closed the 3DS store it was Hackers and modders who kept the games alive so people could download and play them they are the true heroes

    • @Kamawan0
      @Kamawan0 29 дней назад +1

      @@jetlox I do respect that, but at this point if you buy into anything Nintendo that’s your own fault. There are better games to play than what they offer.

    • @jetlox
      @jetlox 29 дней назад

      @@Kamawan0 I'm just saying a lot of those games would have been lost to time if the modders didn't save them

  • @greg2kdotcom
    @greg2kdotcom Месяц назад +1424

    "I'm older than videogames" would make an awesome t-shirt

    • @Stormlywing
      @Stormlywing Месяц назад +7

      PS3 CFW is 2x better than the PS5 pro that worst when is only has 256 MB VS 16GB ram that likey none are free to use for old gen games
      Power system that can't even play older game means
      is older than the PS3 would been yet
      PS1 - Supports HDMI by 3rd party
      PS2 - Most loved still has it at home ( Modded of curse )
      PS3 Slim - Nice try sony im not buying the PS5 pro as it an older system than is baby one from years ago

    • @masternerd64
      @masternerd64 Месяц назад +52

      He's not though... The first video game was released in 1958. Even discounting Tennis for Two, the first arcade game was released in 1971, making it 53 years old.

    • @IDontModWTFz
      @IDontModWTFz Месяц назад +15

      ​@@Stormlywingwhat has this got to do with a t-shirt?

    • @lerdog
      @lerdog Месяц назад +27

      @@masternerd64 it's not like people would be pedantic and correct him on the streets like they do on youtube comments tho, so it's okay

    • @Omoges
      @Omoges Месяц назад +1

      Count on me!

  • @dizzymoon_j
    @dizzymoon_j Месяц назад +423

    Those of us who can help preserve video games must take action. It is up to us to ensure that we do not move from Lost Media to the archaeology of certain video games.

    • @mo0se3
      @mo0se3 Месяц назад +26

      this is why i’ll always hold onto the full library zips of the nes, snes, and N64. if someone needs them, i’ve got em

    • @xXdeathXx101
      @xXdeathXx101 Месяц назад +4

      @@mo0se3 😂 when i get my nas im gonna have every rom i can get my hands on lol

    • @kupokinzyt
      @kupokinzyt Месяц назад +4

      @@xXdeathXx101 Im at 265 terabytes lol.

    • @zergmare7
      @zergmare7 Месяц назад +4

      ​@@mo0se3me too! I have several 8tb hdds with backups of everything from nes to ps2

    • @Ay-xq7mj
      @Ay-xq7mj Месяц назад +1

      @kupokinzyt How?

  • @watainiac
    @watainiac Месяц назад +138

    Sega actually deserves some credit on this front, because believe it or not, they actually sell honest to goodness ROMs on Steam that come bundled with an emulator, and even if that's not to your satisfaction, you can just take the ROM file and load into any emulator you prefer. With emulator development being so vast for all platforms, it would be easy for any and all publishers to simply open up their coffers and sell ROMs they own for use with existing emulators and games could be saved for practically zero effort on their part.

    • @mahendrap1960
      @mahendrap1960 Месяц назад +28

      Sega took down many roms on sonic and persona

    • @beesbeesbeesbeesbees
      @beesbeesbeesbeesbees Месяц назад +21

      That was good while it lasted, but they seem to be shifting away from that model; like how the classic Sonic quadrilogy was entirely delisted for Origins's release, making it impossible to legally acquire the ROMs and briefly making mods like S3AIR unplayable

    • @SyphistPrime
      @SyphistPrime Месяц назад +17

      They delisted the classic Sonic ROMs when Origins was released. So they are not perfect in this regard.

    • @ct2651
      @ct2651 Месяц назад +2

      ​@@SyphistPrimewe are all saying this without know the amount of revenu they made on these roms... if the amount was low, maybe us, consumers, arent rewarding enough companies that actually make an effort.

    • @SyphistPrime
      @SyphistPrime Месяц назад +1

      @@ct2651 I literally bought the complete set to reward this behavior. I've also bought the mobile ports of Sonic 1 and 2, even though I use decompiled versions for better ease of use. I'm doing what I can to show my support for SEGA doing this, but I am only 1 person. Before the delisting I even encouraged people to buy the ROMs officially as it was the only ROMs you could legally purchase. I tried to do my part to encourage this kind of behavior from companies.
      That said, if another company were to do such a release and provide the ROM or ROMs for personal use I would buy it, even if I'm not really interested in the game. Why? Because it's genuinely a practice I believe in and rewarding it is worth my money, even if I don't end up getting anything out of the game.

  • @biscoito1r
    @biscoito1r Месяц назад +30

    Games not published within 10 years should lose their copyright. They should also lose it if they don't publish the source code within 30 years.

  • @XerShadowTail
    @XerShadowTail Месяц назад +167

    I currently am working on an emulator for Java Feature Phones and it is a huge undertaking considering the large number of phones available and all of the various different APIs available. But gosh your points on research is definitely true, digging into so many ancient books, old search results, etc. soo much knowledge is needed and cross-knowledge too. It sucks because to the end user they often do not see the amount of research that is needed to write an emulator which is really draining when someone who really has no idea pops in and complains about how slow emulation development is, which is really common.

    • @Criticmasterz
      @Criticmasterz Месяц назад +7

      Keep it up

    • @chigstardan7285
      @chigstardan7285 Месяц назад +13

      Oh! i remember playing old .jar and .jad java games on the J2me emulator. It's wonderful that you're researching feature phones! Good luck!

    • @SyphistPrime
      @SyphistPrime Месяц назад +5

      I forgot about these games! You're doing good work.

    • @gamagama69
      @gamagama69 Месяц назад +3

      oh wow 11 year long project waow

    • @Maximilian1990
      @Maximilian1990 Месяц назад

      @@XerShadowTail sounds like you need to network/work harder

  • @thomask4978
    @thomask4978 Месяц назад +69

    I would say "right to repair" is in the same boat. Companies they say they support it, but make repairs harder or remove features if it was repaired by yourself or a 3rd party.

    • @peachylover4598
      @peachylover4598 Месяц назад +4

      100%

    • @DragonKnight90001
      @DragonKnight90001 Месяц назад +2

      (I don’t know if I’m just rambling on here so bear with me.) This is most likely a problem thatwill be a continues fight that will outlive us and the generations to come for the rest of humanity’s life. My question is will future generations of gamers continue to preserve or even remember how to preserve our generations of games which is basically the very beginning of gaming. I hope in the future they will allow all the games to be in the public domain sooner or later than risk being forgotten or it will just live in the history books alone if it is recorded that is. One for example I know is with some of the early doctor who series the bbc didn’t see the importance of preserving any of the programs until it was too late we lost a lot of it but some were preserved.

    • @AbstractS04
      @AbstractS04 Месяц назад

      I mean, isn't that why IFixIt has guides for console repairs?

  • @brya9681
    @brya9681 Месяц назад +380

    Also remakes and remasters aren't the same as preservation

    • @Stormlywing
      @Stormlywing Месяц назад +2

      Which the PS5 pro claims is has
      backwards compatible where is lacks is older gens which meaning is just to run Last gens games not on his 30th day which is only counts to 11th when you match PS4 lunchday to the PS5 pro and you see 30th is not right

    • @halfbakedproductions7887
      @halfbakedproductions7887 Месяц назад +22

      Or if an old game was released on multiple platforms and the publisher takes down the OG builds - now, the only one you can have is some jankfest based off the crummy mobile port. The legendary OG releases are lost to history. GTA says hi. Things like cloud gaming also only have the bleeding edge build, so you can't even play GTA V as it was intended at launch. You need to find an original disc and keep your console offline to ensure it doesn't update.
      I also downloaded the "HITMAN Collection" off Xbox Live - except it was just HITMAN 3 with the mission packs. That's a totally different experience to the original game because HITMAN 3 gutted the mechanics and revamped the missions so they don't look, feel, or play like the originals.

    • @Upsetkiller456
      @Upsetkiller456 Месяц назад +15

      Remasters/re-releases are strongly encouraged though, enabling older titles to be played on modern hardware is undeniably a a good thing, much better than the plague that are remakes

    • @MetallicBlade
      @MetallicBlade Месяц назад +30

      Biggest problem with remakes/re-masters is that most of them are fucked around with. Adding in pointless censorship or removing features outright.
      They just can't help themselves.

    • @MrVariant
      @MrVariant Месяц назад

      2 words: fool's errand 😂. I guess that antstream arcade subscription isn't good enough for ya. People are also paranoid like steam is gonna wipe their accounts.

  • @Austin-kt7ky
    @Austin-kt7ky Месяц назад +29

    Touhou 1-5 is a good example of this. Original releases of around 100 copies on floppy discs for the Japanese PC98. That's a whole lot of impossible unless somebody has already done the work of ripping it for you.

    • @sonicmaiden2871
      @sonicmaiden2871 Месяц назад +10

      Ngl as a Touhou fan myself, I wouldn't have been able to ever play these without dumped roms and an emulator. I can't afford paying thousands of dollars for the original carts + some old Japanese PC I can't even read nor understand what it says. Good games by the way, and I also appreciate the fan made English patches of them.

    • @nathanielbass771
      @nathanielbass771 Месяц назад +7

      not to mention floppies are probably degraded by now

  • @markerichannelly
    @markerichannelly Месяц назад +824

    Needs to be a law that games become abandonware after 10 years without being on sale and the original publisher loses the copyright and it becomes public domain. If they want to retain it then they must make it available for sale.

    • @matteste
      @matteste Месяц назад +67

      Seriously, Id used to be very good with this before they got taken by Bethesta where they released most of their stuff as open source.

    • @billyhatcher643
      @billyhatcher643 Месяц назад

      good luck with that no way thatll happen as long as boomers are in charge once they go out were in charge

    • @Finnishmanni
      @Finnishmanni Месяц назад +38

      copyright maybe to the game itself, but for the characters, i don't think so.
      The game should become abandonware for sure. Let's say Zelda minishcap that has been re-released all the time for virtual consoles so that would make sense it wouldn't be abandonware, but let's say super Mario land 2, that was released on 1993 and then re-released on 3DS virtual console on 2011 (on korea 2016) and then again on switch online on 2023.
      That game, should have lost its rights for sure on 1993-2011. So when people emulated that game, they should have had all the rights to do so.
      That wouldn't affect their sales that much if they released the game for 3-5 € on 3DS, since the consoles are always closed unique systems, so of course people will still buy the games on them.

    • @SuperFranzs
      @SuperFranzs Месяц назад +19

      @@matteste Id only open sourced their engine. You still needed to have bought the game to get the WADs. I miss them releasing their engines, though.

    • @BlueIsLeet
      @BlueIsLeet Месяц назад +1

      Okay, what I would do is then list it for sale for 1 trillion dollars. Problem permanently solved. Nice try though

  • @_NoDrinkTheBleach
    @_NoDrinkTheBleach Месяц назад +397

    Abandoned software and hardware should be considered just that. It's exceptionally frustrating that publishers want to lock things they are no longer interested in selling in the past. I understand that there are licensing issues with music publishers or automobile manufacturers to consider, but that should really only apply to games that are still being sold as new in some sort of retail marketplace.

    • @Robert_D_Mercer
      @Robert_D_Mercer Месяц назад +14

      looks like I need to start an underground mob then cuz Idgaf

    • @Txm_Dxr_Bxss
      @Txm_Dxr_Bxss Месяц назад +40

      The most frustrating thing is that we had the same before with silent movies. In the 1930's people wanted sound movies, so studios stored away or in some cases even destroyed their old catalogue of silent films because it didn't make money. Originally copyright was intended to protect artists and creatives, now that entertainment has become an industry it's a motivation for some executives to destroy the hard work of hundreds of actually creative people because their calculation says it's the most profitable decision.

    • @teknastyk
      @teknastyk Месяц назад +10

      aaaw the license expired??? So we shall shift+DEL that Ferari and just drive lambos. Kool.
      Ooh the license for the song expired?? Well, okay. We wont pay the artist anymore as we delete the track from our game and push a 3.45Mb update to finish it off. WHY IS LICENSING STILL A PROBLEM?? Devs cant find DEL button?? Guys.... your sleeping. Pay attention.

    • @cin2110
      @cin2110 Месяц назад

      ​​​​@@Maximilian1990So it's okay for companies to fully control culture and art just because it's in the form of software also how does the big d of the billion dollar companies feel in your holes.

    • @0xfadead
      @0xfadead Месяц назад +43

      ​​@@Maximilian1990"The software we last touched in 2001 and have no idea how to build anymore isn't abandoned, it's just... on hold." It's so bad that e.g. Rockstar had to resort to pirated versions of their old games just to able to release them on Steam.

  • @alexandre9563
    @alexandre9563 Месяц назад +82

    I was born in 2001, years after some of my favorite video games. Emulation and videos of people using it helped me a lot for discovering many titles. It would suck hard for future generations to get stuck with whatever games publishers think are worth buying (or renting...), and nothing else.

  • @Bro3256
    @Bro3256 Месяц назад +17

    2:38 oh hey I created this online list, thanks for featuring it!
    for context, the numbers shown are releases worldwide so the Virtual Console numbers are including regional exclusives such as MSX games on Wii and Wii U in Japan
    I've been attempting to keep track of the statistics of NSO releases in an effort to better illustrate what the service currently contains in its software library, I hope to continue this project especially when the Switch successor comes out

  • @RetroPiero
    @RetroPiero Месяц назад +517

    1 things for sure... it's time to start investing on a 4TB hard drive for Retro games. (2TB if you only play stuff before the PS1 era)...
    Just know....(Caution: may not be exact)
    Atari 2600: Total set size: 3 Mb
    Master System: Total set size: 73 Mb
    Sega Game Gear: Total set size: 59.5 Mb
    Sega Genesis: Total set size: 1 Gb
    Sega Saturn: Total set size: 82.5 Gb
    Sega Dreamcast: Total set size: 300 Gb
    NES: Total set size: 237 Mb
    SNES: Total set size: 1.7 Gb
    N64: Total set size: 5.5 Gb
    Gamecube: Total set size: 867 Gb
    PS1: Total set size: 3.722 Tb
    PS2: Total set size: over 18 Tb
    GB/GBC: Total set size: 568 Mb
    GBA: Total set size: 8.4 Gb
    DS: Total set size: 83.2 Gb
    Neo Geo AES: Total set size: 3.83 Gb
    Neo Geo Pocket: Total set size: 383 Mb

    • @Yabe_uke
      @Yabe_uke Месяц назад +73

      My 4 8TB disks welcome you to the hoarding game. Save everything you can.

    • @vincentvega3093
      @vincentvega3093 Месяц назад +57

      Bro, they are selling 32TB models now. This ain't 2004

    • @eAzrail
      @eAzrail Месяц назад

      Already have most games stored, i got you. Napster kaaza limewire gen here

    • @hatchetman3662
      @hatchetman3662 Месяц назад +27

      Make multiple backups, as well.

    • @redpheonix1000
      @redpheonix1000 Месяц назад +38

      Get yourself a NAS / other storage server, have a good backup strategy and give these game companies the finger

  • @emdotrod
    @emdotrod Месяц назад +635

    Insane that piracy will might be the only way to preserve games

    • @MuhammadAlfikri-i1m
      @MuhammadAlfikri-i1m Месяц назад +20

      True, i even downloaded a LOT of torrents games and PS2 ROMs.

    • @LogandiSFM
      @LogandiSFM Месяц назад +18

      This is why I have a folder in my HDD full of cracked games I like/used to play and also have multiple backups of that folder.

    • @doniarts
      @doniarts Месяц назад +10

      @@MuhammadAlfikri-i1m Are you seeding them tho cause when no one does then no one else will have access to them leading to the same problem again.

    • @ProjectionProjects2.7182
      @ProjectionProjects2.7182 Месяц назад +5

      Yeah its a depressing reality.

    • @MuhammadAlfikri-i1m
      @MuhammadAlfikri-i1m Месяц назад +3

      @doniarts That's a issue of torrent unfortunately, because i saw a lot of niche torrent that are not usable due to the owner never seed the torrent ever again.

  • @Baxiljn
    @Baxiljn Месяц назад +514

    “Piracy is almost always a service problem and not a pricing problem.” - Gabe Newell. This sums up the issue.

    • @brannycedeno6823
      @brannycedeno6823 Месяц назад +3

      Sounds cool. Might you explain it, please?

    • @ironpro7217
      @ironpro7217 Месяц назад

      ​@@brannycedeno6823People pirate games not because they don't want to pay for the game but because the experience you get with the official version on official hardware is worse. I bought xenoblade x but I've dumped the game and only play it on cemu now because it has a higher resolution, cheats to bypass online requirements for some content, allows the removal of more HUD elements, FOV options, free cam, ect.

    • @Maximilian1990
      @Maximilian1990 Месяц назад +7

      ​@@brannycedeno6823he'll probably respond with if buying isn't owning piracy isn't stealing or something

    • @joshhallam2253
      @joshhallam2253 Месяц назад +14

      I know that there is an "almost always" so this could certainly be am outlier, but Thor from Pirate Software talked about how he prices his games cheaper in areas of the world (Brazil was mentioned specifically) that have lower wages and he said that for the one game he was talking about, Brazil (known for their piracy) was the country he got most of his revenue (or maybe sales) from.
      So, I believe Gabe that a service problem exists that makes piracy so much easier, but also, I mean, we could all buy these old games for $100-$500 so, I think there is a pricing problem, too.

    • @ironpro7217
      @ironpro7217 Месяц назад

      ​​@@brannycedeno6823The experience you get from piracy is often better than playing the official game on official hardware. For example, I bought xenoblade x but dumped it to cemu because then it can be played with higher resolution, updated lighting, cheats to let you play online only content, more HUD options, wider FOV, freecam, ect

  • @Zaia2013
    @Zaia2013 Месяц назад +2

    Tbh, I don't know that we as consumers have an inherent entitlement to play every game that has ever existed, ad infinitum.
    _But_ - and this is crucial - greedy corporations ought to have no special entitlement to hoard intellectual property, to the demise of legitimate *art*.
    Piracy is a reasoned, ethical equalizer against these greedy corporate thieves.

  • @zebare726
    @zebare726 Месяц назад +45

    First the arcade gaming died, next the community gaming aspect, and now the aspect of owning games.

  • @5persondude
    @5persondude Месяц назад +95

    2:55 not enough people consider this; not everyone was born at the exact age to start having disposable income for every game generation, nor could they predict what games will and won’t be popular or rare in the future. Back in 2012, no one thought that the Yakuza series would blow up in popularity in 5 years when the then-new Dead Souls was released, or that that game would be $100+ USD in the future

    • @skycloud4802
      @skycloud4802 Месяц назад +10

      I was around, I just didn't have the purchasing power because my income was low. Nintendo could have circumvented this issue by actually heavily discounting old games on the estore, especially as it was closing down. Instead it kept most of them at full price and just shut it down. Their loss as much as mine, because I didn't give Nintendo a dime.

    • @ProjectionProjects2.7182
      @ProjectionProjects2.7182 Месяц назад +10

      Yeah exactly. Im getting tired of the whole "Well you should have just bought it while you had the chance" when not everyone could have done that at the time.

    • @nobafan7515
      @nobafan7515 Месяц назад +6

      Someone actually argued I should pay for insane prices even if it's way above retail. No way am I doing that.

    • @SomePotato
      @SomePotato Месяц назад +8

      On top of that, *all* old hardware and media *will* die at some point.

    • @gamagama69
      @gamagama69 Месяц назад +5

      yeah sorry for not buying gamecube games in like 2005 instead of going to daycare lmao
      i did manage to get gale of darkness at some random yard sale when i was 11

  • @VicHD
    @VicHD Месяц назад +255

    You call it piracy, I call it preservation. You call it illegal, I call it abandonware. Most games get abandoneed and lost to time until game companies see value in an IP again. Emulation for many is not just a last resort , but a necesity to preserve past works.
    Preservation is up to us now.

    • @waled7564
      @waled7564 Месяц назад

      ​@@Maximilian1990
      You need to go to jail for this horrible opinion you shoes licker

    • @zenksren8206
      @zenksren8206 Месяц назад

      @@Maximilian1990 I call you brain-damaged

    • @thedarkdragon89
      @thedarkdragon89 Месяц назад

      @@Maximilian1990 Go shill elsewhere, fake gamer.

    • @rhindlethered
      @rhindlethered Месяц назад +4

      Call it what you want. It's still theft.

    • @VicHD
      @VicHD Месяц назад +27

      @@Maximilian1990 @rhindlethered From Wikipedia: Some game developers showed sympathy for abandonware websites as they preserve their classical game titles.
      "Is it piracy? Yeah, sure. But so what? Most of the game makers aren't living off the revenue from those old games anymore. Most of the creative teams behind all those games have long since left the companies that published them, so there's no way the people who deserve to are still making royalties off them. So go ahead-steal this game! Spread the love!"
      - Tim Schafer

  • @marco_23p
    @marco_23p Месяц назад +11

    All I have to say is "Thank You"; this is a topic im very passionate about and I'm so sick of people being obtuse about this.

  • @imkayjaylea
    @imkayjaylea Месяц назад +382

    Ubisoft can get comfortable not having my money.

    • @CrazyChiefXxX
      @CrazyChiefXxX Месяц назад +15

      100% agreed. i hate they way the ruined a small game not alot of people know about ...Trackmania...been playing it for years even back on winXp. then they ruined the latest installment with paywall BS.

    • @cadetsparklez3300
      @cadetsparklez3300 Месяц назад

      sadly stupid quebec government gievs them taxpayer dollars

    • @GameAW1
      @GameAW1 Месяц назад +19

      Ubisoft needs to get comfortable not having a company.

    • @masterkamen371
      @masterkamen371 Месяц назад +8

      They should get quite comfortable with bankruptcy. I never pirated their games, but now I won't even bother with that. You can't even compare AC Origins with Valhalla. One is a world built with care and love, another is an unfinished smashing heads with an axe simulator.
      AC Mirage does not even qualify, a total joke.

    • @forestmanzpedia
      @forestmanzpedia Месяц назад +5

      Ubisoft needs to get comfortable loosing their employees and making more losses.

  • @CaptainBuggyTheClown
    @CaptainBuggyTheClown Месяц назад +242

    Piracy is moral. I am a game developer both indie and have worked on larger projects, I 100% condone the preservation of games regardless.

    • @Bullminator
      @Bullminator Месяц назад +4

      Exeption to the rule of what not to preserve are bad, unfinished hentai games.

    • @scarm_rune
      @scarm_rune Месяц назад +43

      @@Bullminator i must goon therefore i disagree

    • @CaptainBuggyTheClown
      @CaptainBuggyTheClown Месяц назад +40

      @@Bullminator good and bad are subjective everything should be preserved especially the "bad" games, and more so on outdated consoles or hardware.

    • @Maximilian1990
      @Maximilian1990 Месяц назад +2

      Ok share your work here please so we can steal it

    • @riverblack123
      @riverblack123 Месяц назад +28

      ​@@Maximilian1990You wont be stealing anything, will you merely copy it.

  • @SL2797
    @SL2797 Месяц назад +96

    That message at the ESA's website saying "We love games!"
    No you don't. You love *power* .

    • @divinecomedian2
      @divinecomedian2 Месяц назад +11

      "Hello fellow gamers"

    • @Anders127
      @Anders127 Месяц назад +4

      They love games that makes them money. If there is no money in it and there is risk of losing future opportunties on old IP they are not interested!

    • @ChobeVelyasha
      @ChobeVelyasha 29 дней назад

      Youll be eating the shit,youll be living in subscription​@@divinecomedian2

  • @kylebowles9820
    @kylebowles9820 Месяц назад +7

    I just played a game that turned 20 years old today for its birthday, Ratchet and Clank 3; brought back online by some of the best of humanity. It's up to us, they sure as hell won't do it.

    • @jane1975
      @jane1975 Месяц назад

      Ratchet and Clank 3 is my favourite of the original trilogy, Dr Nefarious is my favourite villain of the series.

  • @DrMatta
    @DrMatta Месяц назад +132

    Way ahead of you mate. Every rom/ISO set stored on 2x 18TB HDDs. Been collecting for years because I knew this would happen.
    It's not about pIrAcY, it's about preservation.

    • @rhindlethered
      @rhindlethered Месяц назад +11

      Arrrr me hearties. I were only *preservin'* that man's gold.

    • @scottydu81
      @scottydu81 Месяц назад +5

      You are a pirate! 🏴‍☠️🏴‍☠️🏴‍☠️

    • @Sairiui
      @Sairiui Месяц назад +3

      Wow the replies you're getting are toxic..

    • @PunishedDad
      @PunishedDad Месяц назад +3

      Based

    • @scottydu81
      @scottydu81 Месяц назад +8

      @@Sairiui I was being honorific

  • @BushinRyuCat
    @BushinRyuCat Месяц назад +11

    Thank you, MVG. THIS is the reason i stubbornly won't give up my disc drive for my laptop! maybe i can backup all my disc games to send to an archive site. And i think we should *donate* to sites that archive: our donations can offset any fines they may be forced to pay in future.

  • @D4RKF4LZ
    @D4RKF4LZ Месяц назад +59

    I'm 49. My journey started upon finding my uncle's Sears Pong console in the closet. I've never looked back. ALL hardware and physical formats will eventually fail. The art that has been created over the last 50+ years deserves to be preserved just like music & cinema. If I have to sail the seven seas in order to enjoy that art, then so be it!

  • @wasd____
    @wasd____ Месяц назад +17

    If buying isn't owning, then piracy isn't stealing. 🏴‍☠🏴‍☠🏴‍☠

  • @MikeDoesCovers
    @MikeDoesCovers Месяц назад +15

    We desperately needs consumer rights - this is also related to all other aspects of the game industry too (layoffs, strikes,consumer rights being stripped of ownership)- we all need to come together and get the lead out- we can’t have them constantly dictate what is ownership

  • @torshec8634
    @torshec8634 Месяц назад +121

    You should talk to Ross. And funny ain't it, the Government AND the Companies themselves can't compare to the dedicated and passion of private collectors and the game community.

    • @rhindlethered
      @rhindlethered Месяц назад +1

      Well, there are always thieves, no matter what we do.

    • @divinecomedian2
      @divinecomedian2 Месяц назад +1

      Governments are only good at taking your money and starting wars

    • @histhoryk2648
      @histhoryk2648 Месяц назад +3

      Well, there was a pinned comment of Scott under this video, now it disappeared for some reason

  • @dataterminal
    @dataterminal Месяц назад +35

    The UK has the National Archive. There is a legal requirement for anything published, music, books, games etc, in the UK to have at least a single copy sent for their archives. This includes digital store fronts like Microsoft's Xbox Arcade on the 360. So we (at least in the UK) should have a preservation of games.
    However, it is very much like the USA where you need to be an authorised person to access the content, and prove legitimate needs for it, and you're not going to be able to take it with you because it's still bound by copyright and must remain. This does mean for some RUclipsr's such as Kim Justic who does marathon length coverage of all titles from one publisher, genre or compares platforms etc, they would have to actually live at the archive as a permanent resident to complete their job.

    • @unicorntomboy9736
      @unicorntomboy9736 Месяц назад

      I thought it was just for published books in the UK

    • @bobmcbob4399
      @bobmcbob4399 Месяц назад +6

      Then the archive is useless. And we still need a solution.

    • @NintendoSunnyDee
      @NintendoSunnyDee Месяц назад +5

      ​@@bobmcbob4399 How is it useless? It's preserved. If that's what it's all about, why is it useless?

    • @reillywalker195
      @reillywalker195 Месяц назад +2

      Canada may also prove critical in video game preservation due to the nation's orphan works law.
      Here in Canada, the federal agency responsible for copyright can and will issue licences for orphan works so long as prospective licensees can prove they've made reasonable efforts to find the copyright holders of those orphan works. Thus, someone interested in republishing games from defunct studios might be best to try doing so in Canada.

    • @bobmcbob4399
      @bobmcbob4399 Месяц назад +13

      @@NintendoSunnyDee If no one can access apart from a select few, it is useless.

  • @s.e.n3264
    @s.e.n3264 Месяц назад +3

    I'll repeat what smart men say.
    If buying isn't owning, then piracy isn't stealing.

  • @aescalo5
    @aescalo5 Месяц назад +8

    In Spanish jurisdiction there is only piracy if, and only if, there is reselling of IP. As a result, if you don’t, it is not piracy, there are sentences around that concept. Therefore, it is arguable.
    Having said that, justice cannot ignore the fact that if that IP is not marketed, then there is no harm in using it AS IS. No harm no foul principle.

  • @SRC267
    @SRC267 Месяц назад +128

    IA and the community will continue to preserve untill we get out of these dark times. The community is strong.

    • @overlordalfredo
      @overlordalfredo Месяц назад +2

      AI is not really helping that much with this. At least not the stuff that is around today.

    • @MarkusMaal
      @MarkusMaal Месяц назад +16

      ​@@overlordalfredoIA, not AI?

    • @overlordalfredo
      @overlordalfredo Месяц назад +1

      @@MarkusMaal which means?
      I was assuming this was a typo

    • @MarkusMaal
      @MarkusMaal Месяц назад +19

      ​@@overlordalfredoIA =Internet Archive, AI = artificial intelligence

    • @agentmith
      @agentmith Месяц назад

      Where have you been the last month? We basically lost the internet archive. It’s fallible. If you personally aren’t ensuring the longevity of titles don’t count on anyone else to do it for you. Download as many complete NO-INTRO torrents as you can, put it all on a NAS with at least RAID 1 or 5, back it all up to another location, then make a copy on physical media to give a copy to a friend for offsite storage.
      There’s no “getting out” of these dark times, if anything this has steadily gotten worse over the last 3 decades. At least we have ample storage and bandwidth to do all this ourselves now.

  • @dog_knight
    @dog_knight Месяц назад +12

    It's damn frustrating to see the way the industry deals with the matter. But I don't see them ever changing their stance. It will continue to be in the hands of individuals to keep access to these old games. Preserve collections the best you can. Contribute if you're able to.
    I believe copyright law needs reform more than anything. There needs to be an expiration date on copywrite content if it is unavailable for purchase after a set time. Either this pushes publishers to re-release the content in some form or they give up the right to copywrite. One challenge is the multiple parties often involved in publishing games each having rights to certain IP. The changes need to be made before a game starts development to make sure that licenses allow for rights to expire after a certain time.

    • @bobmcbob4399
      @bobmcbob4399 Месяц назад

      Copyright is a scam. The Mouse has been extending it for years on years.

    • @rhindlethered
      @rhindlethered Месяц назад

      @@bobmcbob4399 Copyright law in the US has not been changed since 1998.

  • @OneOkami
    @OneOkami Месяц назад +5

    I've had a steadily decreasing tolerance for DRM over the years, to the point where I rarely even buy games on Steam anymore and almost exclusively shop on GOG. I’ve even started reinvesting in titles in my library which I originally purchased with DRM restrictions where/when they are otherwise available DRM-free (e.g. GOG). Furthermore I’ve fortunately been taking steps to preserve backups of older titles I have on physical media in the event any related hardware gets damaged or lost.
    I do believe games are works of art and should be preserved just as other forms of creative expression are (e.g. paintings, movies, books) and I support the community’s efforts to preserve them even if/when the industry neglects to do so. Games shouldn’t have to be lost to time, existing to generations only in the forms of recordings, descriptions or pictures. They’re interactive experiences which can only be truly preserved by maintaining accessibility to that interaction and I’ve seen how emulation can be the only reasonable means of access. I therefore see emulation as a service to the community and to history and both respect and applaud the efforts behind it.

  • @samio3907
    @samio3907 Месяц назад +87

    There should be a store like GOG for console games with official emulators provided by manufacturers

    • @livinlicious
      @livinlicious Месяц назад

      Games source code should have to be made public.
      No need for developers to do anything, just publish their source code. That's it.
      Github exists. Be forced by law to make abandoned code public.
      If not done, at least after asked, face fines and legal consequences.
      Easy fix.

    • @CD-vb9fi
      @CD-vb9fi Месяц назад

      no, part of "preservation" is the REMOVAL of the originators "remaining in control of it" because if you know anything about history... they will try to revise and retcon it. You never know when something you take for granted now will become a victim of politics tomorrow.

    • @pinkysweets
      @pinkysweets Месяц назад +8

      it's really hard to publish old games, I know a team that worked on one few years ago, took then 2 years to track down all license holders and making deals. It's not as easy as people think

    • @kamilpotato3764
      @kamilpotato3764 Месяц назад +23

      @@pinkysweets Copyright right and license laws need reform first. 10 years max. Without these changes preservation is doomed.

    • @shrekrealista5045
      @shrekrealista5045 Месяц назад

      Just buy physical games lol

  • @viniciusmaidana2159
    @viniciusmaidana2159 Месяц назад +106

    As far as I'm concerned, this preservation issue is the biggest argument against videogames being art. Every single other form of art is far better preserved, even by the big bad corporations that own them.
    The way the gaming industry treats game preservation makes it obvious that the industry itself does not consider games are an art form worthy of being preserved. In the end, piracy is the only true preservation tool gamers have, that can fully cover the preservation necessities of the art form, and that's the reason I'll never be fully against piracy.

    • @relo999
      @relo999 Месяц назад +5

      Piracy is pretty awful for proper preservation, it's basically a step above "better than nothing". The big issue with game preservation is that almost nobody actually wants to put money in to do proper preservation, certainly not for the general public.

    • @doji_town_adventures
      @doji_town_adventures Месяц назад

      "every single other form of art is far better preserved" because those forms have existed long enough for the gaps to be missed. gaming is a new art form and humans are repeating the exact same mistakes they made in terms of new art medium preservation

    • @tor2886
      @tor2886 Месяц назад

      Games aren't art tbh, they are a pandering tool for idiots. Do something meaningful and learn an instrument.

    • @Manic_Panic
      @Manic_Panic Месяц назад +16

      @@relo999 What are you on about? Piracy is the best way to preserve video games. I have all my old console games inside internal storage devices in their respective consoles, including the DLC and patches I want for those that have it. The games play just as good as those who bought them back in the day... in fact even better in some cases since booting some of them from a hard drive makes them have faster load times, particularly the older games like PS2, Original Xbox, etc.
      Do you want a signature of ownership from the publisher to consider it "real preservation"? lol...

    • @ProjectionProjects2.7182
      @ProjectionProjects2.7182 Месяц назад +10

      @@relo999 No actually there are organizations like the Video Game History foundation that are willing to put money into preservation... They just cant because of garbage copyright laws which was the main point of this video.

  • @elmokiller89
    @elmokiller89 Месяц назад +85

    0:10 Have you seen this man?😀

    • @chasesmay7237
      @chasesmay7237 Месяц назад +1

      The back of a milk carton. That intro reminded me of America’s Most Wanted back in the day lol

  • @DirtyFrigginHarry
    @DirtyFrigginHarry Месяц назад +87

    the fact that the US copyright office and regulators of video games support this means It is my moral obligation to pirate games

    • @HUYI1
      @HUYI1 Месяц назад +10

      It's not just that, they simply just don't care then why should we?

    • @RupeeRhod
      @RupeeRhod Месяц назад +4

      if you mean pirate old games, sure... but don't kid yourself when you pirate a game that just released you have some moral high ground.

    • @gc6096
      @gc6096 Месяц назад

      Yay

    • @CrazyChiefXxX
      @CrazyChiefXxX Месяц назад +1

      @@RupeeRhod this is where i believe that fine line should be.... we should have access to that rom ONCE its at its EOL service... once its not supported we should have access that way it satisfies both parties...and if the companies don't like it....boohoo. that's like the EPA with cracking down on people owning older vehicles...they don't want us to keep older vehicles running even though they and we know that they last longer and don't need a brand new 50K commuter car....

    • @rhindlethered
      @rhindlethered Месяц назад

      @@CrazyChiefXxX You are talking apples and oranges. The EPA trying to make it harder to own older cars is government overreach, telling us what we can and can't do with the things we own. Forcing companies to allow you to have a game just because it's for an older system is *also* government overreach, telling us what we can and can't do with the things we own. The only difference is when it comes to old games, you're the one who wants the government to overreach on your behalf.

  • @bedwablackburn
    @bedwablackburn Месяц назад +111

    I am with you 110% on this. As someone who is a speedrunner of retro video games as well as someone who has a wife with a Masters in Public History (museum work), this is a depressing topic. Without the community, we would have a HUGE gap in the history of video games that could be the equivalent of losing an ancient archive similar (but scaled down a bit) to the Library of Alexandria. There's been so much knowledge lost over the ages to archives like that being lost.
    To put it in perspective, if someone wants to create and update a game from the early days of video game history, without preservation, it's not happening. It would be like trying to make the movie "O Brother where art thou" without even having the source material of the Odyssey and using handed down hearsay to piece something together.

    • @Maximilian1990
      @Maximilian1990 Месяц назад +3

      So your wife is fine with me walking into her museum and taking stuff with me just because it's no longer in use?

    • @davidt3563
      @davidt3563 Месяц назад +7

      Yup, a lot of people don't understand how important preservation is. Imagine if Defender, FF7 or DOOM were lost to history?

    • @bedwablackburn
      @bedwablackburn Месяц назад +7

      @Maximilian1990 no, but many museums also have specific events (like the state of Illinois museum) with showing off artifacts at their collection site. Along with depending on the items (taking into account aspects such as how fragile they are etc) they can sometimes let the patrons handle them. These do tend to be for museum members, but they do exist. If games aren't preserved, they can't even be viewed in an "attract" mode... They're just gone unless the producer still has a copy somewhere.... Not to mention any game producer/maker that's went out of business.....

    •  Месяц назад +19

      @@Maximilian1990 Piracy does not take the games away from the companies that made them, though. They copy what has already been published.

    • @Gamefreak924
      @Gamefreak924 Месяц назад +1

      "Masters in history" lmaooo

  • @PXAbstraction
    @PXAbstraction Месяц назад +18

    8:35 I like Steam just fine, but let's not continue to spread the myth that Valve does this out of the goodness of their heart or the sake of preservation. They started offering refunds because they were being sued for violating consumer protection laws. They did it because they had to, not because they wanted to.

    • @divinecomedian2
      @divinecomedian2 Месяц назад +3

      Steam is still an example of a decent company. Sure it has flaws but nowhere near as bad as the like of Nintendo or Microsoft.

  • @yeetkunedo
    @yeetkunedo Месяц назад +52

    It’s time for video game players, emulator developers, and historians of all stripes to create a consumer advocacy group.
    The ESA is a lobbying organization that funnels money previously paid by consumers to giant publishing corporations into a singular collected fund that effectively bribes both politicians and judicial authorities.
    A consumer advocacy group could be the same thing, except that it’s for the people who would otherwise be giving these companies money, therefore potentially making a unified threat to the trickle-down gravy train that fuels the ESA.
    The only thing they care about is money. Start taking that off the table, and you’ll see these ghouls change their tune quick.

    • @cmdraftbrn
      @cmdraftbrn Месяц назад +4

      the esa exists for one reason and one reason alone. to keep congress out of the gaming industry.

    • @yeetkunedo
      @yeetkunedo Месяц назад +2

      @ and there’s no better way to do that than contributing to reelection campaigns of key legislators

    • @Criticmasterz
      @Criticmasterz Месяц назад

      Exactly this needs to rival esa

    • @Maximilian1990
      @Maximilian1990 Месяц назад +1

      Too bad pirates are too cheap to pay for stuff 😂

    • @megaman37456
      @megaman37456 Месяц назад +1

      @@cmdraftbrn And they are failing.

  • @rikwisselink-bijker
    @rikwisselink-bijker Месяц назад +6

    Copyright should work like trademarks: once you stop exercising your rights for a fixed time period, you lose it.
    That way Disney won't oppose it, but the problem of abandonware is fixed.

    • @loganmedia4401
      @loganmedia4401 Месяц назад

      They'll just loophole it somehow and then really make copyright infinite. The proper solution is to make copyright much shorter. Things will get preserved and companies will be forced to make new things to earn money instead of attempting to endlessly profit off the old.

    • @FrancisSchonarth
      @FrancisSchonarth Месяц назад

      All Disney fault. Google it!

  • @DeemienX
    @DeemienX Месяц назад +72

    Such a shame that many games and services went into oblivion - but thanks to the community, many stuff got archived and preserved. This is not piracy, this is our history and legacy!

    • @AfutureV
      @AfutureV Месяц назад +1

      It literally is still piracy.

    • @IamaPERSON
      @IamaPERSON Месяц назад

      @ now remember: if no one wants it, no one owns it, and no one else cares about it, it’s piracy.

    • @rhindlethered
      @rhindlethered Месяц назад +1

      @@IamaPERSON Except someone almost always owns it.

    • @IamaPERSON
      @IamaPERSON Месяц назад +1

      @@rhindlethered but if you’re not going do anything with it, it’s just being wasteful.
      Example: if you bought a living room table, but then you don’t put anything in it, like say, a lamp. Why did you buy it? It’s not only a waste of your money, but it could’ve went to someone who needed one.
      Heck, I used to have a gaming chair, but when I realized I didn’t have any space for it, I gave it away instead of letting collect dust.

    • @rhindlethered
      @rhindlethered Месяц назад

      @@IamaPERSON That doesn't matter. Your example is terrible. Maybe it *is* wasteful to buy a table you never use. But it's *my* table. You don't get to just take it because I'm not using it to its fullest advantage.

  • @1776Meow
    @1776Meow Месяц назад +8

    I never speedrun old games, I rarely play the old games. But I firmly believe they should be made available and preserved, your message really hit home, so sad that Nintendo among others, are so dead set against destroying the older games. They dangle the carrot of just buy it here is awesome, then in a few years they shut down the store making them unavailable, rinse and repeat. No one wants to keep buying the same game multiple times, and not everyone can afford super rare physical games, that since they are physical, could stop working due to hardware malfunction. CDs and DVDs do have a shelf life, I am going to guess cartridge games do as well.
    Can you imagine spending thousands of dollars on old physical games only to lose them in a disaster or theft, with no way to ever play them again?

  • @madson-web
    @madson-web Месяц назад +10

    Publisher's wet dreams is an all streaming service on your TV that they control everything. It is as simple as that. But only for something they think it is upfront profitable. The lesser known ones will continue to be impossible to get other than downloading a rom

  • @KyleReeseCel2029
    @KyleReeseCel2029 Месяц назад +2

    I just want to give a shout out to all of you who have created emulators, and provided the roms for us to enjoy. I love you guys and you have been providing a necessary service to all of us for decades. You have made our lives better. Thank you very much and I hope you continue to thrive 🎉

  • @Zyute.
    @Zyute. Месяц назад +64

    My 12tb and 14tb external drives are dedicated to preservation for just this reason. Complete sets are safe and secure so they dont disappear forever.

    • @guyverjay1289
      @guyverjay1289 Месяц назад

      What horse shit 😂.
      You are just a horder and a pirate😂

    • @ShotokanEditor
      @ShotokanEditor Месяц назад +4

      same here brother

    • @promero14
      @promero14 Месяц назад +12

      Just be careful since storage media doesn't last too much

    • @neoasura
      @neoasura Месяц назад +13

      @@promero14 Been in the preserving games game since 2000, I have files over 24 years old that I've transferred from floppy to CD to DVD to Blu Ray to Hard Drives to a NAS with a bacup. I have a complete set of every game from Atari 2600 to the Dreamcast including the Arcade. I'll do my part to make sure they never dissappear.

    • @modermonkula
      @modermonkula Месяц назад +4

      I have almost every FPS with a single player campaign released for the Xbox 360 , only need 6 more 👍

  • @breadmoth6443
    @breadmoth6443 Месяц назад +122

    piracy it is ..... when all legal avenues are exhausted, what else is there ?

    • @Silis4327
      @Silis4327 Месяц назад +9

      Accept you can’t have it and move on? You don’t have a given right to access.
      And in most cases, legal avenues aren’t exhausted - it is mostly possible to buy used

    • @teku0000
      @teku0000 Месяц назад +40

      @@Silis4327real life and internet arent the same

    • @CD-vb9fi
      @CD-vb9fi Месяц назад +34

      @@Silis4327 what if I told you... you don't have a right to own an idea either?

    • @bredmaster
      @bredmaster Месяц назад +19

      More videos pretending that emulation hasn't been the best way to do these things for decades now. Thank god for pirates.

    • @slamshift6927
      @slamshift6927 Месяц назад

      Silis ducks shriveled little corpo penis

  • @mactep1
    @mactep1 Месяц назад +15

    If you're in Europe go sign the stopkillinggames petition NOW!

  • @T1000the
    @T1000the Месяц назад +7

    Agree with this video.
    I wish it would have also made a mention of the stopkillinggames Initaive Ross Scott is moving forward. Wich would hopefully handle a few of the concerns from a legal side.

  • @jesib
    @jesib Месяц назад +127

    I try to help seed when I can

    • @GangityBirdity
      @GangityBirdity Месяц назад +15

      Same

    • @Randomperson462
      @Randomperson462 Месяц назад +26

      You the real ones

    • @DrNoBrazil
      @DrNoBrazil Месяц назад +4

      So brave, such a hero. Sharing stuff you stole...

    • @bruhtholemew
      @bruhtholemew Месяц назад +45

      ​@@DrNoBrazilSo brave, such a hero. Defending a megacorp...

    • @PropaneWP
      @PropaneWP Месяц назад +27

      @@DrNoBrazil Trolling anonymously in the RUclips comments. So brave, such a hero.

  • @Emancipatriot
    @Emancipatriot Месяц назад +17

    If anybody contributing the emulation scenes sees this: thank you for what you do! Im off to play bulletstorm rpcs3 after this comment. Rpcs3 and Xenia have both improved massively in the last 9 months. Now I play ps3 and 360 games on my ser5 mini pc

  • @ErnestJay88
    @ErnestJay88 Месяц назад +16

    "If buying game doesn't mean you own the game, pirating game also doesn't mean stealing the game"
    (basically whole internet today)

    • @Maximilian1990
      @Maximilian1990 Месяц назад

      No only a handful of idiots today think that

  • @oscillationcommunications709
    @oscillationcommunications709 Месяц назад +1

    Absolutely.. I have absolutely CRAMMED about 50 classic cabinets into my house to save and restore them.. Starting in 2017,and slowly finding and rescuing them.. I love sharing them with friends and family,and they are still fun and challenging! Trying to open an arcade one day,fingers are crossed!
    🤘🏻😎🤘🏻

  • @freakdave
    @freakdave Месяц назад +141

    All publishers should be required to preserve their games by law and make them available once they're no longer being actively sold. This should especially include games that are dependent on third party licenses such as Outrun 2 or Afterburner Climax.

    • @DryDisco
      @DryDisco Месяц назад +8

      publisher may close down and the game will be lost. Laws do nothing to help us, they only stop us from helping ourselves.

    • @GhostOfLorelei
      @GhostOfLorelei Месяц назад +6

      They should be required to open source them, imo. Giving the code to the fans is the only way to ensure actual preservation.

    • @SXZ-dev
      @SXZ-dev Месяц назад +10

      That is insane lol what a ridiculous frivolous law that would be mandating game publishers to have to maintain server rooms just for hosting old software ensuring a growing ongoing cost to them the longer they exist, laws don't exist to fulfil your whims and we shouldn't litter lawbooks with millions of laws governing every single pet peeve people might have.
      You want to preserve games? Buy them, store them, buy a few hard drives and dump them for yourself

    • @SXZ-dev
      @SXZ-dev Месяц назад +5

      @@GhostOfLorelei Then you expect them to give up their copyright and just hand you the intellectual property, what other industry does that? These comments really illustrate how ridiculous the expectations from gamers are and thus why the courts slap this whole thing down on sight at this point

    • @blessedpigeon6304
      @blessedpigeon6304 Месяц назад +2

      @@GhostOfLorelei why would you need game code? When preserving movies you don't really need an original roll of film, you only need a copy of a compiled and edited movie. Just let up keep and download ROMs and there would be no issue.
      Requiring publishers to preserve their shit is also weird because why would they? It'll be enough for them not to hinder game preservation

  • @gligarguy4010
    @gligarguy4010 Месяц назад +74

    The Nintendo Ninjas out here watching this video, waiting for him to trip up.

    • @Matanumi
      @Matanumi Месяц назад +2

      Ninjas don't give a shit unless he shows a method

    • @gligarguy4010
      @gligarguy4010 Месяц назад +13

      @@Matanumi Nope, where have you been the past few months? They care about showing gameplay.

    • @tcscomment
      @tcscomment Месяц назад +11

      ​@@gligarguy4010they use gameplay footage as a petty excuse to shut down things they don't like

    • @gligarguy4010
      @gligarguy4010 Месяц назад +6

      @@tcscomment Someday I hope a court case does happen just so we have the clear rules of what is and isn't okay. I hate this grey area business where people keep guessing.

    • @cpufreak101
      @cpufreak101 Месяц назад +3

      ​@@gligarguy4010the large problem with that is Nintendo can very much just out-spend whoever opposes them unless they're going after an equally large company

  • @mronewheeler
    @mronewheeler Месяц назад +12

    The compromise solution: Require that copyright holders provide their copyrighted media for sale (at a reasonable price) or lose their copyright.
    The radical solution: Set all copyright to expire after 15 years.
    15 years is well enough time for anyone to profit from their creations. After that it should be open to the public to use as they wish. Super Mario Bros. should be in the public domain. This doesn't mean trademarks should expire after 15 years, mind you. Nintendo can keep their exclusive right to publish new Super Mario games. But any individual work should be made freely available to all before it is likely to become lost media. And then the media that people actually have an interest in will live on.

    • @kuillus
      @kuillus Месяц назад +7

      Not so radical. Before Disney kept getting copyright extended, it use to be 15 years with the option of a one time extension to another 15 years after which it would become public domain for everyone to enjoy. It was thought to be a social good to give it back to the public to remix or enjoy how they saw fit. Disney made their empire out of public domain works then pulled the ladder up behind them so their work would escape being returned. I wish we would go back. Creator should be able to exploit their work for a set number of years but after which the public owns it while it is still relevant and before it is forgotten or lost to time. Even at 30 years that is more than enough time to disgusting exploit a franchise till you made multiple millions of dollars. And it would keep stuff fresh. It would encourage companies to come up with new ideas instead of sequels, and it would encourage others to remix stories and characters in new original works.

  • @NekoShogun
    @NekoShogun Месяц назад +1

    Gosh, I think this video just convinced me to become an archivist. I collect CDs and Video Games, and had recently slowed down because I pretty much got all the stuff I *wanted*. I already decided after Taki Udon's last video that I needed one of those dumpers. I also was able to monetarily support the Polymega and morally support all other properly sourced consolators.
    Yea, I need to start looking into that to see how I can help.

  • @anonytuser711
    @anonytuser711 Месяц назад +13

    With Internet Archive going down over the last month , there needs to be another alternative for game preservation online.

    • @lookitskazzy
      @lookitskazzy Месяц назад

      Yeah, something like BitTorrent, USENET, IRC, a million different file sharing websites... Hope somebody invents that stuff soon.

    • @chikkin.salad.sandwich
      @chikkin.salad.sandwich Месяц назад +5

      There was and Nintendo carpet bombed it because zoomers and Gen alphas kept bragging on TikTok about being able to pirate pokemon and openly showing people how to do it

    • @anonytuser711
      @anonytuser711 Месяц назад

      @@chikkin.salad.sandwich Children are we can't have nice things.

    • @doniarts
      @doniarts Месяц назад

      @@chikkin.salad.sandwich That site is still up just does not have 1st party Nintendo games on there ( most of them ) 3rd party games are still available to download.

    • @Manic_Panic
      @Manic_Panic Месяц назад +2

      The IA is back again and login should be restored soon.
      There are also other sites where video games from the Atari to the PS3/Wii U era are fully preserved, including demo discs and DLC.
      If you know where to look, video game preservation isn't going anywhere, legally or illegally.

  • @retabera
    @retabera Месяц назад +9

    Hey Dimitris thank you for bringing attention to this! Pirate Parties around the world are trying to bring about a Political solution to the problem. Regards from Pirate Party Australia 🏴‍☠️

    • @therealmrglanet2127
      @therealmrglanet2127 Месяц назад

      The German Pirate Party and Czech Pirate Party EU MEP Markéta Gregorová support Stop Killing Games!

  • @mr.j774
    @mr.j774 Месяц назад +32

    nothing pisses me off more than spending money on something and being told im no longer allowed to use the thing i purchased. then give me my fucking money back...

    • @FatLarry-h4z
      @FatLarry-h4z Месяц назад

      it's like food, you buy the food you eat the food, you still enjoyed it and used it, you don't get a refund cause you can't eat it anymore

    • @mr.j774
      @mr.j774 Месяц назад +17

      @ that’s the shittiest take on this particular issue I’ve seen in a while. So you consider video games singe-use consumable goods?
      Boo 👎🏻

    • @kevinerbs2778
      @kevinerbs2778 Месяц назад +3

      ​@@FatLarry-h4z except this like have the waiter/waitress talk to you nice make good conversation for hours and then 2 hours later. You leave without ever have gotten any physical food but paid for the service.
      Like paying for a hooker for her say nice things to you, and no ah-hum fun time......

    • @turokrambo5617
      @turokrambo5617 Месяц назад +3

      ​@@FatLarry-h4zits NOT Food. Food gets goes away. When you eat it. Entertainment like Music, movies, and games
      They stay. And keep playing the same way they do. Well music and movies.
      Games Sadly don't get that privilege of being able to be played on ANY format. Unless you download a Emulator on your PC and get the BIOs illegally to run the disc. Some Emulators can run the disc on PC. But alot don't.

    • @Maximilian1990
      @Maximilian1990 Месяц назад

      You have your license key still tho, you're free to enjoy it all you want even after the game servers shut down

  • @gangsterHOTLINE
    @gangsterHOTLINE Месяц назад +1

    Thank god so many of the emulators have been open source from the get go. Honestly the most noble cause in video game preservation. If no one will fix the problem, the community will and there is no stopping that.

  • @NeonThoughtBox
    @NeonThoughtBox Месяц назад +16

    This video is so important. The library argument is solid.

  • @Aragorn7884
    @Aragorn7884 Месяц назад +36

    Not allowing vaporware or shareware especially is nuts 😮

  • @keego_yt0810
    @keego_yt0810 Месяц назад +8

    Piracy is our only hope to bringing back preservation as a whole. Those corporate pigs have no damn rights to take away a game we've purchased to have ownership of. FTC and Lina Khan matters. #stopkillinggames

  • @JasonJrake
    @JasonJrake Месяц назад +2

    Many modern movies (including one of the Toy Story entries) and video games were saved even before release because an employee kept an “unauthorized” copy at home, and restored their work when the office servers crashed.

  • @DCFatCat
    @DCFatCat Месяц назад +58

    ROM Files need to be complete! There's too much DLC and updates, preservation needs to be complete in as small of a file as possible

    • @Bullminator
      @Bullminator Месяц назад +3

      You can just save files of original and then apply updates in emulator so not a big issue.

    • @skycloud4802
      @skycloud4802 Месяц назад +8

      The problem is which ROM to preserve. Look at Skullgirls for example. Do you preserve the fully updated version, or the uncensored original version? That's why preserving all versions of a game is important.

    • @youngwt1
      @youngwt1 Месяц назад +1

      We need a git for games!

    • @latt.qcd9221
      @latt.qcd9221 Месяц назад +3

      @@skycloud4802 Yup, exactly. Games like that would need to be preserved by version number, and even pirates don't usually bother with that.

    • @watainiac
      @watainiac Месяц назад +2

      Legally speaking this is important, yes, because updates and DLC can't be redistributed without breaking the law, so if you wanted to say, play as Cloud in Smash 4, and you weren't there to purchase it while it was available, there is no legal method to acquire it now. You can buy a disc for Smash 4, but there is substantial content that you can never experience without resorting to other methods.

  •  Месяц назад +37

    Intellectual property was a mistake.
    Medical patents, massive media monopolies with record profits while independent productions struggle to even exist, musicians suing each other over 3 second chord progressions and now old videogames going to the void.
    Intellectual property has done everything it said it would prevent, it needs to go.

    • @MichaelPohoreski
      @MichaelPohoreski Месяц назад +9

      When even a _patent attorney_ writes a book *Against Intellectual Property* you know the system is cooked.

    • @cosmicspacething3474
      @cosmicspacething3474 Месяц назад +8

      Nah, the problem is power imbalance. Laws are too lax on corps, and too strict on everyone else

    • @doctorhealsgood5456
      @doctorhealsgood5456 Месяц назад

      It really does.

    • @cosmicspacething3474
      @cosmicspacething3474 Месяц назад +1

      @ Ok, that’s just taking it too far

    • @ktechnology9146
      @ktechnology9146 Месяц назад +2

      The system is definitely broken but doing away with IP altogether isn't without problems either. Without IP protections advancements aren't publicly shared and sometimes advancements are incredibly difficult to reverse-engineer, as WD40 demonstrates.

  • @enigmatico6209
    @enigmatico6209 Месяц назад +10

    No matter how hard they try to avoid people sharing copies of old games and emulation, there will always be some Russian-hosted website with everything you need. People just needs to avoid conventional ways of developing emulators and sharing ROMs and embrace other alternative ways much harder to track and take down like GIT repos hosted over onion services and torrents over a VPN (as an example). For some of y'all this might sound "unfeasible" or "stupid" but the only way to fight abusive laws is through piracy and this is pretty much the future of everything. Decentralization and obfuscation.

    • @Zyute.
      @Zyute. Месяц назад +2

      Good points. Couldn't agree more👍

    • @gligarguy4010
      @gligarguy4010 Месяц назад

      This doesnt just "sound" stupid, it is stupid.

    • @francisquebachmann7375
      @francisquebachmann7375 Месяц назад +3

      This is why i don't share links. Because people who really want to get it will find it anyway. Telling strangers online the "links" will just doomed it due to the possibility that the one who ask is a rat.

    • @Zyute.
      @Zyute. Месяц назад +1

      @francisquebachmann7375 I've come across this on discord. Never know who you are talking to so they could have other motives when asking for sources. Pass on the knowledge and let the gamer work it out.

    • @Maximilian1990
      @Maximilian1990 Месяц назад +2

      Damn, Russia good now 😮

  • @DarinM1967
    @DarinM1967 Месяц назад +2

    Good video, although video games have been around a lot longer than 40 years. Heck, my brother and I got a PONG console, from our grandparents, for Christmas back in 1974, which was 50 years ago, and I believe many sites say the first recognized video gain was "Tennis for two" back in 1958. I totally agree that we should be preserving video games and have been saving what I can for my own collection and I think a lot of people should too. Again good job with your video and keep fighting the good fight!

  • @RemnantCult
    @RemnantCult Месяц назад +4

    It's largely a question on if you see video games as just a product or also as art. The US is slowly starting to see video games only as a disposable product.

  • @AradijePresveti
    @AradijePresveti Месяц назад +10

    And then they wonder why people pirate games

  • @treechenho
    @treechenho Месяц назад +7

    The irony of the Sony ad at 7:41 is not lost on me

    • @MarkusMaal
      @MarkusMaal Месяц назад +3

      Ah yes, it's the "Pay has no limits" ad

  • @tigrom01
    @tigrom01 Месяц назад +1

    I will always be grateful for the community efforts in order to provide emulators, roms, patches, fixes and many other resources that make playing old and obscure games viable. So many great classics!

  • @misterxar
    @misterxar Месяц назад +26

    Tennis for Two came out in '58, and Spacewar! came out in '62. It's a bit older than 40.

    • @MaJoRJayjay
      @MaJoRJayjay Месяц назад

      I'm sure someone will argue those are "analog games" because they're played on oscilloscope or something lol

    • @reillywalker195
      @reillywalker195 Месяц назад +5

      _Pong_ was the first commercially successful video game and came out in 1972, too, and the two oldest known video games are _OXO_ and _Strachey's Draughts_ which were both completed in 1952.

    • @SomePotato
      @SomePotato Месяц назад +2

      @@MaJoRJayjay Tennis for Two is a video game but not a computer game. Spacewar is a computer game as well.

    • @bp-it3ve
      @bp-it3ve Месяц назад

      The magnavox odyssey was the first gaming console.

    • @christianbethel
      @christianbethel Месяц назад

      Naughts and Crosses. 1952.

  • @MichaelPohoreski
    @MichaelPohoreski Месяц назад +10

    *Gamer:* _I WANT to BUY your old game._
    *Company:* _We don't sell it. We stopped making that console decades ago._
    *Gamer:* _You are too cheap to host a digital download??_
    *Company:* _Sorry, it isn't for sale._
    *Gamer:* _Fine, I'll download it and run it on an emulator._
    **Company:* _That's piracy! You are stealing our profits._
    *Gamer:* _WHO am I "stealing" profits from since you DON'T EVEN SELL IT?!?!_
    *Company:* _Here is a lawsuit to shut you up with your "Logic"._

  • @danialonderstal3564
    @danialonderstal3564 Месяц назад +4

    The biggest thing happening atm that makes game preservation harder is the 'online only' functionality

  • @frumpysnorfls5088
    @frumpysnorfls5088 Месяц назад +2

    After your wii u homebrew video in 2019 opened my eyes to console modding, Ive been modding every console I own or using flash carts.
    WHen i get money for hardrive Ill back it all up, I want my future kids to be able to enjoy the games I played.

  • @WhitePointerGaming
    @WhitePointerGaming Месяц назад +3

    Video games are over 50 years old, actually. The first commercial arcade game, Computer Space, released in 1971, and the first console, the Magnavox Odyssey, released in 1972. So, no, MVG, you aren't older than video games :P

  • @JustinEmlay
    @JustinEmlay Месяц назад +4

    Around 2:05 you imply that downloaders could be prosecuted. There isn't a single instance of anyone who's consumed illegal digital content having been prosecuted. They only go after distributors.

    • @420HBKHHHDX8
      @420HBKHHHDX8 Месяц назад

      They do in Europe. It doesn't work as well as some years ago but they also still try. And we have many cases where they succeeded.

    • @JustinEmlay
      @JustinEmlay Месяц назад

      @@420HBKHHHDX8 Not sure how Europe works. So someone, somewhere spent who knows how many thousands of dollars to sue someone for a $30 movie? Or a $40 game? Yikes!

    • @N1ckZ
      @N1ckZ Месяц назад

      No they don't. Not even in Europe. But the EU has blocked some websites for downloading things illegaly, but you can access them with a VPN.

  • @jomoju
    @jomoju Месяц назад +8

    Something you miss to say it's license and many companies that aren't longer running that have the license of some videogames and they probably can't see the light again

    • @bitelaserkhalif
      @bitelaserkhalif Месяц назад +2

      Richard burns rally, god hand, Pepsi man, bakusou dekotora is some of the example

  • @-Prestoned-
    @-Prestoned- Месяц назад +1

    My wife had told me that if I didn't stop collecting retro games, she was going to leave me. Well, now I have so much more room for my collection..

  • @PatrickJFurlong-c6z
    @PatrickJFurlong-c6z Месяц назад +8

    The one question is - how are they going to STOP us playing retro games outside of the eco-system? I've got a PS1 and PS2 so I can play them at any time, and I have an N64, Wii U and Gamecube so can play those games at any time. So if Nintendo don't want me playing those games, how are they going to stop me? It's not like Nintendo can take me to court to force me to get rid of said equipment.

    • @Manic_Panic
      @Manic_Panic Месяц назад +5

      They can't stop you. The most they can do is take down those sites but others will pop up.

    • @rhindlethered
      @rhindlethered Месяц назад +3

      Who ever said Nintendo doesn't want you playing those games if you bought them legally? This is about *distribution* of copyright-protected material.

    • @modrobert
      @modrobert Месяц назад +1

      ​@rhindlethered If Nintendo could stop you they would, and they keep inventing new ways to undermine the legality of ownership, specifically your rights as an owner to do whatever you want with the product you purchased.

  • @WindowsXPfan-FNFMix
    @WindowsXPfan-FNFMix Месяц назад +5

    I hope someday a group makes a decomp for Sonic Adventure DreamCast.

  • @anticorporatists9959
    @anticorporatists9959 Месяц назад +43

    I'm getting a feeling that the video game crash is forcing these corporate publishers to work with lawmakers to restrict gaming preservation to make money off of these classic games because they're too lazy to make really good games

  • @fearlesswee5036
    @fearlesswee5036 Месяц назад +1

    I think a part of why games are hard to preserve is that they're more complex than music, movies, or books. Books are just text, music is just sound, and movies are a series of pictures placed in sequence with sound. That's to say; it's very easy for it to be displayed on basically any device. Video games however, are super complex and involve a lot of moving parts, and may involve interacting with very specific hardware designed for a very specific task; hardware that's no longer manufactured. They make calls to APIs that may be severely outdated and no longer supported on new hardware, they may require middleware that have expired licenses or is no longer maintained for modern systems, they may require a specific type of CPU instructions, etc.

    • @eye776
      @eye776 Месяц назад

      that doesn't change the fact that the main issue here is how copyright currently works.
      you can't preserve a copy of quest 64 because what if in the year 2090 it suddenly becomes popular again and whoever buys Imagineer by that time risks losing money on a then 92 year old video game ?

  • @rockhyde7775
    @rockhyde7775 Месяц назад +6

    That whole DMCA thing had me freaking out.

  • @voidFutureVector
    @voidFutureVector Месяц назад +9

    100tb at home dedicated to preserving games. But that’s not enough. It’s fun acting as a historian.

    • @rhindlethered
      @rhindlethered Месяц назад

      Keep telling yourself that, "historian".

    • @lout160
      @lout160 Месяц назад +1

      Not every library can stock every book. I salute you. We must all play a part in conserving our culture.

  • @daserfomalhaut9809
    @daserfomalhaut9809 Месяц назад +14

    I said it on a previous video and I will say it again here:
    Anti emulation sentiments are unambiguously corporate bootlicking.

    • @YuriMomoiro
      @YuriMomoiro Месяц назад +6

      There are actually few traits in "players" that leads to that:
      1) Corporate Bootlicking
      2) Superiority Complex
      3) Gatekeeping
      4) Scalping and Pump n Dumps in 2nd hand market
      Sadly, none of these are positive traits.

    • @ProjectionProjects2.7182
      @ProjectionProjects2.7182 Месяц назад

      Indeed and its pathetic behavior.