@@Plissken72also during night raids infantry would trade their garrands for carbines. The carbine is a vastly superior night time rifle. Twice the ammo. Half the muzzle flash. Range doesn’t really matter at night. And I’m tired of people talking about knock down power with the carbine. It’s ballistic equivalent to a 357 carbine.
The M4 carbine was originally developed as a PDW, to give non-combat troops an effective rifle like the M16, but smaller and handier. As with the M1 carbine, line troops came to like its reduced size, and then ran into problems when they started running it as hard as a full-size rifle, and found out that the internals wore out much faster.
It's interesting that as the concept of the purpose-built PDW has evolved, so too has the size of the cartridges. Examples are the .30 carbine, .224 BOZ, 5.7x28 and 4.6x30. Thoroughly enjoy the PDW discussions. Thank you Josh and Henry.
I still believe the best PDW for a civilian is a pistol brace adapter like a Flux or Recover Tactical. This allows a person to use a full size pistol in the adapter while still having the ability to carry a pistol both in the same caliber. In my case a Glock 31 and 32.
I agree completely. I CC my G48. And I have a G19 in a Recover tactical chassis with a red dot. The G48 has no WML and no red dot to keep the profile light and small. This allows me to wear tshirst and shorts without issue. If I do have to draw, it will be reactionary and probably within 5 yards. A wml and a red dot won't really do much. I sacrifice longer range capacity for concealment and comfort. My recover tactical G19 has a red dot so I can shoot to 50 yards accurately and fast. I prefer this over a PCC, MP5 size, or pistol ar because it stays concealable. I don't want my bag to be filled with a broken down AR. This bag probably has stuff I need for work. It's not going to turn from normal society to shtf in a day where you carry a gun bag, it will be a degradation of society. You need more protection, but still need to go to work or go to the store. A pistol chassis provides more capability, ammo capability, and range than a handgun in a situation where there is a short term breakdown in law (like during riots). But AR pistols and larger PDWs will draw attention to yourself. As Brass Facts has stated, "providing as much capability covertly without going into the realm of overt"
When I think about what makes a personal defense weapon, the word that stands out to me is PERSONAL. As in, intimate or close. These are small weapons designed to defend yourself at short ranges. When the bad guy is up close and PERSONAL. Yes, they can reach out further, but that’s not their intended use. Essentially fills the same exact role as a handgun, but with more points of contact for quicker, easier follow up shots.
Here's an attempt at a definition that holds true: A PDW is: 1) a weapon primarily designed for use inside of 200yd in a *reactive* rather than *proactive* combat role, that 2) grants more lethality than a handgun by some combination of extra capacity, ballistics, or most especially practical-accuracy-at-speed, but 3) otherwise still makes *about as close as possible to maximum* concessions to minimizing weight & size, *by reference to the practically available alternatives within the procurer's means and time period.* 4) If of similar enough size to make the determination ambiguous, a pdw's balance of traits is oriented towards being more portable or more covert (or both) than a small carbine or submachinegun, whose balance of traits will lean comparatively more towards overt firepower. Testing the definition: ✅The stocked mauser and arty luger trivially fit this definition; they are lighter & more compact than contemporary line rifles as well as any WW1 submachineguns that saw use in meaningful numbers. ✅Despite being longer than a modern M4 carbine, the M1 carbine fits this definition because it is significantly more compact than the contemporary Garand or Springfield and also *significantly* lighter than the contemporary Thompson at a similar length. The M3 grease gun is smaller, but this doesn't cause the M1 to violate the definition because the M3 postdates it by several years (and the M1 is also *still* significantly lighter.) ✅P90, MP7, vz61, and MP5K clearly fit the definition in modern contexts because they are all lighter, more compact, and more defensively oriented than the relevant alternatives ("full size" submachineguns and ultra-chopped-down intermediate cartridge carbines.) The P90 and MP7 have occasionally been used as a primary offensive weapon, but it is more predominantly deployed defensively, E.G. VIP protection by security personnel who are a reactive rather than proactive fighting element. 🟨Krinkov mostly fits the definition within the parameters that it was the smallest and lightest gun possible within the means of the Russians being logistically tied down to an AK-based platform at the time of adoption. Arguably the Stechkin with stock fits the definition much better, but it was logistically irrelevant by comparison. 🟨Within the US civilian context, "PDW" is consistently used as a catch-all to mean "the lightest, smallest, handiest weapon in my collection/budget right now that's smaller than a non-NFA carbine, but more capable than an ordinary fullsize handgun, especially if I can make it fit in an inconspicuous bag and carry it where I can't inconspicuously carry a carbine." The PDW is thus defined by the combination of its status as an "enhanced-capability defender's weapon" and a running dialogue of its intermediateness between the "standard" defender's weapon (handguns) and "the smaller weapon options typical of an offensive millitant combatant of its design era." Definition point 4 covers the fuzziness of how a Krinkov or Honey Badger can be a PDW when a MK18 or an MP5 is not. Rather than a fully fixed set of parameters it's an inherently historically/contextually contingent category, but contingent in a consistent way.
Even though I dont believe there to be rules to this term, IMHO Carbines are carbines, and not PDWs, despite having similar origins/use cases.. Again, just my opinion, but a PDW should not have a barrel length more than 8".
@@ScottyBennitone That's an understandable line of thought for the corner cases in the most modern era of "PDW vs carbine vs smg," but it also defines the M1 carbine out of the category when the M1 was doctrinally dreamed up for the exact role we assign a PDW- a (for the time) ultralight defensive weapon for non-frontliners to reactively engage offending threats with greater accuracy and firepower than a service handgun. The M1 is an odd duck in that it's kind of got one foot in both worlds due to its overall length, which throws a big wrench in being able to write a simpler definition of PDW as a super short gun, but it also seems too appropriate to the category within its context to exclude. EDIT: Drawing a hard line at 8" also excludes the P90, maybe the most undisputably PDW PDW ever but with a 10.3" barrel; but drawing a hard line at 10.3" and under would include the MK18 (also 10.3"), which I think you and I rightly agree is a carbine.
I think the Flux Raider fits the definition very well, despite cool-SF-dudes using them offensively (like the MP7) instead of issuing them to non-front-line troops that would be better served than having to lug around an M4 (or XM7 in the future)
@@ScottyBennitonePersonally, I don't like the way people treat the PDW classification (I'm not talking about the classification of weapons like the P90 and MP7, that would be another topic), because PDW in the sense that we are talking about is not a weapon classification but rather a role that a weapon has to perform in a certain military doctrine, for example, the Squad Automatic Weapon (SAW) is a classification in military doctrine to designate a machine gun that uses the same cartridge as the service rifle (sometimes it can also be fed with rifle magazines). However, you can see from the nature of this definition that several types of weapons can fit into it, including those from different classifications, such as automatic rifles, LMGs or even GPMGs/MMGs. In other words, in theory any weapon can be used for the role of a PDW, but obviously there will be weapons that fulfill this role better than others and generally these weapons are in well-classified groups such as stocked pistols, machine pistols, SMGs and carbines.
Here's the thing, to begin with you need to understand that there are differences in the classification of weapons and roles (in military doctrine), the first is intended to define a weapon by its features (such as assault rifles, which are rifles in an intermediate cartridge, fed by a detached box magazine and selective fire), while the second is a definition used to highlight the needs that a certain weapon has to fulfill when used in military doctrine (for example, the Squad Automatic Weapon, or just SAW, is a classification in military doctrine to designate a machine gun that uses the same cartridge as the service rifle, sometimes it can also be fed with rifle magazines. However, you can see from the nature of this definition that several types of weapons can fit into it, including those from different classifications, such as automatic rifles, LMGs or even MMGs). So, to answer your question, the classification of PDW as a role precedes its classification as a weapon. In fact, weapons with the PDW weapon classification came from a NATO requirement to build weapons that would fulfill a PDW role. However, NATO required that the designed weapons should be capable of penetrating soft armor. Therefore, it was through this requirement that the PDW weapon classification was created. However, this should not be confused with the role of PDW in military doctrine.
I'm surprised the lever action carbine wasn't mentioned especially since Henry was toting around a wheelgun. Frequently used the same cartridge as your sidearm which simplified logistics. Provided greater accuracy compared to a single action revolver. It is also faster to reload and can be easily topped up when possible. It also allowed for a greater engagement range at distance compared to a revolver.
Wait... the m4 was supposed to be for our 2nd line troops, a shorter, lighter weight, more compact weapon than the A2. For those troops who didnt need a full sized m16, but needed something better than a pistol. It was shoe horned into frontline combat during the war on terror. Hennce why we went to the m4a1 with the much heavier barel..... we had massive overheating problems because its original barrel was designed to be lightweight for the 2nd line troops who didnt need sustained fire. That was the whole point. So it literally is the definition of a PDW. From everything i have read at least and chris bartoccis history series. I dont know if a PDW can be just a shorter version of a full length gun, but it seems to me that it meets the criteria, but im not a m4 historian, just have watched a couple utube videos and read a couple books. Maybe this needs its own video. If the m1 carbine meets the definition of a pdw, then the m4 definately does.
I don't like how people discuss this classification, because it gives the impression that PDWs are weapons (I'm not talking about weapons like the P90 and MP7, that's a topic for another conversation), while in fact PDW is the role that a weapon has to peforme in a certain military doctrine, in this case, in theory it is possible to use several different types of weapons for this role, however, there will be weapons that better fit the needs that the role in that military doctrine demands.
I think the real trick would be to fund a characteristic definition that can separate an MP5K from an MP5K-PDW, and a SCAR-PDW from other SBRs like the MK18, while including things that are generally accepted as PDWs, like the MP7 or P90. I would argue OAL of a gun (I forget the exact number I came up with) in its most compact form, and three points of contact would be a good metric. It filters out basically all SBRs and full size SMGs, and the regular MP5K, while keeping the SCAR-PDW, but it makes the P90 and M1 carbine outliers.
I was about to get an HK Sp5K-PDW, but then realized that I'm not a tier 1 operator running on the razors edge, so I went with the full size HK SP5 instead. No regrets haha
I believe the PDW is actually more beneficial if we see it as a civilian concept. Concealed carry is a viable option for a lot of the time, but since the pandemic, bag guns have substantially gained ground. Could you do a takedown style rifle or split AR upper/lower in a bag? Sure. But all of the pros a PDW has, smaller caliber, smaller frame, still shoulderable, and better accurate firing for 100-200 yards why not choose a fiream purpose built for portable, concealable, and accurate quick deployment shooting?
@@ST-zm3lm I agree overall, but less focused on CCW. Everything is a tradeoff until it isn't. A pistol is more concealable than a PDW, at the cost of performance in every other area. For *home defense* concealability is irrelevant, but compactness and single-hand ability (because your support hand is constantly needed for everything but support) matter much more than a "real" rifle's ability to make shots out to ranges you could never possibly defend in court. Likewise for uniformed police patrols, and also hunting. Half the US (where far more than half the deer and deer hunters live) is forest cover where shots are well within the range of an SBR, and handiness is critical.
@ I’d imagine hyper compact PDWs are around the corner with the Flux Micro being among the earliest- the same size as a Glock 19 but with a stock/brace. If a more reliable system than a 365/320 can be utilized (or indeed, something designed from the ground up,) I firmly believe it’d be viable, legal issues aside. For home defense/hunting, a lightweight rifle is perfectly sufficient and gives more options and lethality.
for one, i'd always consider the mp9 as a smg or a machine pistol even. But not the mp7, and i couldn't tell you why. Is it the special caliber? or something else...
I love my TP9. It’s great for carrying when I go to places like Seattle or church. I’m on our “security” team and have a service dog that is cross trained in explosives detection. Being able to whip out a TP9 instead of my Glock is super handy even though it’s definitely shower to draw than my G45 in appendix.
With the release of the Ruger RXM, the door is now open for Flux to make a Raider variant compatible with Gen 3 Glock slides. My credit card is standing buy.
Nice thing about pistol calibers (especially indoors) is they don't have as much kaboom as a sawed off rifle. A .45 cal subsonic would be even better. Because the muzzle devise on the AK may help, but, its still going to hurt if you don't have hearing protection. So will a sawed off M4
One point I'd add is that a PDW by design is meant to be a gun that is NOT used, a backup weapon for people whose main job isn't using a gun and who 99.99% of the time aren't gonna use them.
Some people say the HK SP5 full size is too big compared to the PDW, but I think that if you're already gonna be putting a big suppressor on it anyway, then the SP5 is just fine. Even with my 7.5" Alleycat 36, I can still fit the SP5 in a tennis backback (which btw, if you are looking for a 'non-descript' bag to carry a PDW in, I highly recommend tennis *backpacks* specifically.
PDW was not just an in-between the main rifle and the pistol, it was also supposed to be "better" than the already existing submachinegun (which was also an in-between), either lighter, more controllable, more accurate or with a bigger punch, with greater range, or overall just plain more capable, than the SMG. The MP5 works very well as a PDW (in usage) because it is more controllable and more accurate than your typical WW2 open bolt SMG, and lighter than some of them.
The best PDW is the one in your hand when you absolutely need it the most. That said I like my Scorpion, AP5-P, KP9 etc... all are very capable tools for those 2 am uninvited guests at the back door.
I suggest the first firearm PDW was a pistol. Our M1 Carbine was a WW2 version of a previous attempt in the PDW when they first made carbine versions of the rifle. Next, we may see experts advocating for warriors using their pistol as a defensive tool to get to their PDW or to their PDR (Personal Defense Rifle). I made the latter by modifying a M1 with a .308 18" barrel and Smith brake. As a PD weapon, I advocate extending that quick defense need to say you need a red dot device on the weapon. I note you show both with and without the red dot. Also, that old idea of a stocked pistol with a red dot can fill the basic PDW role. Good topic.
The PDW is an institutional solution by militaries to the problem of issuing pistols to rear echelon people who cannot use them effectively. Just train more. Requires instructors, range time, range facilities, ammunition. All of these cost money. A PDW achieves pistol master effectiveness with novice training requirements.
The best weapon to be proactive with is bigger, heavier, and harder hitting. It is unnecessary when Frontline combat is not your role. You pick your pdw based on what is effective in your environment but manageable in your role. A pistol stabilizer is the most restricted option. An sbr with a light barrel for patrol is the most liberal option.
Practical applications for a civilian; -something you keep in your car in case something happens that might require more accuracy, firepower, and or rounds then a regular pistol. -home defense -someone smaller or weaker than average like a petite woman or a little person/dwarf -security guards at a population center like an airport or a mall in which it's not practical to carry around a full length rifle, but the ranges would sometimes be longer than what a pistol is built for. -hiking or otherwise outdoors in which carrying around a falling rifle isn't practical, but pistols are not sufficient in one of the other categories mentioned before. -a backpack gun In which you would draw your pistol first, get behind cover, and then deploy the more effective PDW -Because it's a fun range toy
In my opinion these PDWs are the perfect fill for home defense. More reliable accuracy than a pistol. Shorter and more maneuverable than a rifle. Less concussion than a rifle. Many have longer barrels than pistols, getting better lethality for the same cartridge. Easy light/pressure pad attachment. Easier for small framed people than a rifle, safer operation for less knowledgeable people than a pistol. These very much have their place in the civilian world.
Officially... A Personal Defense Weapon is a compact high capacity weapon with an effective range of 200 yards or greater meant for non-combat personnel (eg, tanker crews) to be able to return fire against opponents armed with standard military arms. For example the P-90 and H&K MP-7 are PDWs because of their compactness and meeting the minimum effective range requirements. Standard machine pistols and submachineguns can't really meet these requirements unless they're chambered for high velocity accurate ammunition that can support an effective range of 200+ yards (eg, not 9mm under any circumstances).
The biggest thing holding purpose built PDW imho is how they cost too much compared to a standard rifle. For SF guys it doesn't matter, but for the rear echelon forces it does.
imho PDW is a rather pistol with attachable stock like a c96 or Glock with KPOS or UZI or Ingram or TP9 or Sig Sauer with system Flux or CP30 - for defence its enough on distance 50 meter. If you want to operate with more long distance is better to use another ammo. 9 mm parabellum or 10 mm or .45 is good work with silencer - enough energy stay on low subsonic speed on distance 50 - 100 meter but new personal armor easy stop them. 7.62x25 ammo have lighter bullet but high penetration capacity and more better balistic at longer distance - aproximatly 100 мeter. 5.7x28 is good on distance 100-200 meter but bullet is more light and less letal espacialy versus armored targets but low recoil give it more accuracy. So each one must define forself what is better for him but remember more powerful ammo need more weight of "PDW" - and less ammo you can cary each day.
Intent is a really frustrating tool for categorization. I would prefer objective measures, such as overall length, energy of the cartridge, fire modes (semi/full auto), etc. Unfortunately the world is not always that cut and dry, and technological changes would certainly render many definitions obsolete over time. Thanks for your thoughts as always.
In engineering we use the term "Use Case" and a Use Case analysis looks at all the different cases of how we expect the thing to be used. UC is a very good way at looking at this problem. The UC of "Rear Echelon have to defend themselves against enemy assault" was the driving UC for NATO style PDW. These items have been adopted for other UC, such as " Lead climber in assault party" and "Covert approach in urban environment", both distinctly non-defensive.
@@michaelw2288 Hey, you are of course right when it comes to the usual pistol rounds. But I would be curious to see the effects of a bulpub .50 AE or 30 carbine in a CQB environment, Bodyguards and Solders in the rear. I mean these cartiges have not really a place in a 'normal' rifle because simply other cartiges of similar size do better job or are more common in this style of rifle and make the handle bulky in a hand gun. They have a pretty flash though. 😀
And if it weren't for certain unconstitutional government agencies the PDW would be far more useful for most civilians than full size rifles (for most scenarios) Civilians generally don't go looking for trouble. So having a reactive weapon would make more sense for most people.
Military police/security have gone from most w rifles and a few pistols to everybody with a pistol and a rifle. If it's bigger than a pistol it will be there when you need it here, and when you go there to get it, you might as well grab a carbine/rifle
I know a lot of people will disagree with me but I personally think a pdw should be chambered in something like .300 blackout, 5.45x39 or 5.56. but for intended purpose the 4.6 is good and the 5.7 is as well. I think pistol calibers out of non pistols is kind of worthless other than subguns. But that's me personally.
What about legal logistics. Sub 2000 and Smith folding carbine aren't SBRs and they get the blast out away from your face.. Less burnt powder.... No HK stickers tho...
Silencerco completely dropped the ball on what they have in the Maxim 9 operating system. Extend the barrel 2 inches, add another baffle and Strike Industries Bravo type chassis and they could have the best PDW on the market, and one that could get government contracts with its ability to be converted to auto.
The M-1 Carbine is not between a rifle and a pistol, but between a rifle and a submachinegun. An MP-5 is always a submachinegun. An M-1 Carbine is a carbine, a Uzi or other submachinegun is a submachinegun. A PDW is a short barreled selective fire weapon chambered in a unique cartridge not used in pistols, carbines, or rifles, designed to defeat body armor while remaining a lightweight weapon lower than that of a submachinegun.
@@franciscofranco4520 No, the M1C concept was from 1938, final design in 1941 and full production by 1942, The M3 was specified and designed in 1942 after the M1C was in service.
@@michaelw2288 You're babbling. The United States Submachine Gun, Cal. .45, M3 was a replacement for the Submachine Gun M1928 and M1 variants. The United States carbine, caliber .30, M1, is a carbine and designed as so. It is not a PDW, nor were any of the above submachine guns PDWs.
The Answer to the question, what is a PDW is in WWI the Artillery Luger, in WWII it is the M1 carbine. In a military roll (truck driver, engineer and pioneer) is more and more difficult to answer. In a civillian zenario two features are important: No over penetration and easier to aim than a pistol (100m effectivness) my answer is SigSauer X-Ten with a shoulder stock.
All else aside, a PDW has to be something that looks good being carried on the person of men in suits & sunglasses. I don’t think the M1 carbine truly fits the PDW definition if just because it predates that concept properly speaking, there always have been second tier weapons that are somewhat reduced in size in someway, but still don’t really properly fit into PDW, so to speak, even if that’s how they were utilized. Artillerymen, drivers, and cooks have always had some sort of carbine or reduced length sword, etc. The MP5K in any iteration is a PDW. I think a better definition of a PDW, rather than saying a bridge is putting rifles and pistols, cause that includes all sorts of things. Is to say that it is in enhanced above a (standard) pistol in lethality and stabilization hardware for a broader and more significant amount of use, particularly for defense, and is indented for practical easy carriage without interference to a primary purpose. Which catches most of your stocked pistols, even those that were strictly a standard pistol with a bracket or rail for attachment of a miniature stock, but also includes your purpose built pistol caliber, or intermediate cartridge items. The original scorpion is a very good example of a PDW.
Personal Defense Weapon implies it's meant to be carried most of the time but also something more capable than a standard side arm. A modern PDW would be a select fire, pistol caliber medium sized firearm. I have no Pedigree to back up any of this.
Still waiting for someone to come out with something roughly equidistant between 9mm and 5.56, with a power factor about where .30 Carbine is but with better external ballistics. 5.7 and 4.6 make too many compromises for fitting inside of a handgun grip profile and full auto controllability.
That would be 10mm, but market forces decide. The feature of having the mag inside the grip is a significant consideration, but that design form factor has no name so is generally ignored.
@@michaelw2288 I agree. My .300BLK PDW is substantially shorter (stock collapsed) and lighter than a P90. Mag in grip is the best (only?) way to go shorter than that; my .357SIG PDW is 12 1/8" in the stowed position and gets 7-800+ ft/lb (better than a short 5.56) out of its 6" barrel.
The problem with handgun cartridges like 10mm and .357 Sig is that their velocity and energy fall off too rapidly to be effective at distances outside of typical handgun engagements. You really need something with a better ballistic coefficient that's capable of carrying that energy further to reach 300m. There needs to be a distinction between MP7 size PDWs and P90 size PDWs. The latter is probably fine to use 9mm with the intended compromise being in favour of concealability, versus one that is essentially a light rifle that trades compactness for longer reach.
@@natalyasparrow6748 300m was the specified effective range for the M1 Carbine, and .300BLK can do the same MV/ME (but with streamlined bullets and optics) from a 7" barrel. The handgun cartridges are for when compactness is absolutely essential. The "downsides" of .357SIG (2-3 fewer cartridges from the same length mag, or 1/2" longer mag for the same capacity) are trivial, and more than counterbalanced by the fact that it has twice the energy for the same projectile.
And once again everyone forgets about magnum pistol cartridges. So how about a stocked bullpup or a swing/folding stock normal PDW gun that has a twelve to sixteen inch barrel. Also why wasn't there a divide between pistol cartridges and rifle cartridges for SBR qualifications.
I feel like Stargate referring to the P90 as a "weapon of war" has a part in that, but most of the narrative being driven today is coming from ignorant anti-gunners who believe all firearms are the Devil's paintbrush.
The PDW was born from the prominent NATO PDW project in the 90's. Unlike many other terms, this one is definitively coined for military employment... which would make it a weapon of war. It doesn't matter because "weapons of war" don't mean that it's bad, nor should that be a blanket criteria for writing laws.
"Funny thing about the Krink, the Russians kept the same cartridge but chopped the barrel in half"
*Obrez Enters Chat*
I'd argue that the Obrez was an early flash bang device that also happened to fire bullets.
My grandpa carried a M1 carbine in WWII and he said that its what everyone wanted.
It was the most popular battle field pickup for the Germans.
I own an M1 Garand. It's heavy. I can't believe troops lugged that thing around all day.
@@Plissken72 that's the exact reason they preferred the carbine. Especially in the jungle
@@Plissken72also during night raids infantry would trade their garrands for carbines. The carbine is a vastly superior night time rifle. Twice the ammo. Half the muzzle flash. Range doesn’t really matter at night. And I’m tired of people talking about knock down power with the carbine. It’s ballistic equivalent to a 357 carbine.
A good representation of a modernist PDW and was issued as one of the
The M4 carbine was originally developed as a PDW, to give non-combat troops an effective rifle like the M16, but smaller and handier. As with the M1 carbine, line troops came to like its reduced size, and then ran into problems when they started running it as hard as a full-size rifle, and found out that the internals wore out much faster.
It's interesting that as the concept of the purpose-built PDW has evolved, so too has the size of the cartridges. Examples are the .30 carbine, .224 BOZ, 5.7x28 and 4.6x30. Thoroughly enjoy the PDW discussions. Thank you Josh and Henry.
Great thought exercise. Always good to see Henry and Josh!
Now, let's see the c96 out to 1000m
DO IT HENRY, PLZ
I think Brass Facts has a very practical view/idealogy of how a PDW should be used in a civilian setting.
I still believe the best PDW for a civilian is a pistol brace adapter like a Flux or Recover Tactical. This allows a person to use a full size pistol in the adapter while still having the ability to carry a pistol both in the same caliber. In my case a Glock 31 and 32.
I agree completely. I CC my G48. And I have a G19 in a Recover tactical chassis with a red dot.
The G48 has no WML and no red dot to keep the profile light and small. This allows me to wear tshirst and shorts without issue. If I do have to draw, it will be reactionary and probably within 5 yards. A wml and a red dot won't really do much. I sacrifice longer range capacity for concealment and comfort.
My recover tactical G19 has a red dot so I can shoot to 50 yards accurately and fast. I prefer this over a PCC, MP5 size, or pistol ar because it stays concealable. I don't want my bag to be filled with a broken down AR. This bag probably has stuff I need for work. It's not going to turn from normal society to shtf in a day where you carry a gun bag, it will be a degradation of society. You need more protection, but still need to go to work or go to the store. A pistol chassis provides more capability, ammo capability, and range than a handgun in a situation where there is a short term breakdown in law (like during riots). But AR pistols and larger PDWs will draw attention to yourself. As Brass Facts has stated, "providing as much capability covertly without going into the realm of overt"
Red and blue marked mags... definitely a Christmas video.
But is one filled with blanks? 🤔
That was super interesting! Henry's knowledge is awesome!
I never thought I would see a modern tactical holster (with thigh strap) for a revolver. Henry has upgraded his game once again.
I have a PCC as PDW I use when my DMR or CQB weapon is TDB. Is that too many TLAs?
When I think about what makes a personal defense weapon, the word that stands out to me is PERSONAL. As in, intimate or close. These are small weapons designed to defend yourself at short ranges. When the bad guy is up close and PERSONAL. Yes, they can reach out further, but that’s not their intended use. Essentially fills the same exact role as a handgun, but with more points of contact for quicker, easier follow up shots.
Brass facts has been summoned
Excellent subject and coverage of it.
Never really had a desire for an AK, but seeing that Krink in a friggin HOLSTER!?!...alright...I'm listening. lol
Of course gotta rub in the AKS74U Henry.....ugh I need that lol
Love your videos.
Question: what holster is Henry using for the revolver? I've not seen an SLS-style holster for a revolver before.
Here's an attempt at a definition that holds true:
A PDW is:
1) a weapon primarily designed for use inside of 200yd in a *reactive* rather than *proactive* combat role, that
2) grants more lethality than a handgun by some combination of extra capacity, ballistics, or most especially practical-accuracy-at-speed, but
3) otherwise still makes *about as close as possible to maximum* concessions to minimizing weight & size, *by reference to the practically available alternatives within the procurer's means and time period.*
4) If of similar enough size to make the determination ambiguous, a pdw's balance of traits is oriented towards being more portable or more covert (or both) than a small carbine or submachinegun, whose balance of traits will lean comparatively more towards overt firepower.
Testing the definition:
✅The stocked mauser and arty luger trivially fit this definition; they are lighter & more compact than contemporary line rifles as well as any WW1 submachineguns that saw use in meaningful numbers.
✅Despite being longer than a modern M4 carbine, the M1 carbine fits this definition because it is significantly more compact than the contemporary Garand or Springfield and also *significantly* lighter than the contemporary Thompson at a similar length. The M3 grease gun is smaller, but this doesn't cause the M1 to violate the definition because the M3 postdates it by several years (and the M1 is also *still* significantly lighter.)
✅P90, MP7, vz61, and MP5K clearly fit the definition in modern contexts because they are all lighter, more compact, and more defensively oriented than the relevant alternatives ("full size" submachineguns and ultra-chopped-down intermediate cartridge carbines.) The P90 and MP7 have occasionally been used as a primary offensive weapon, but it is more predominantly deployed defensively, E.G. VIP protection by security personnel who are a reactive rather than proactive fighting element.
🟨Krinkov mostly fits the definition within the parameters that it was the smallest and lightest gun possible within the means of the Russians being logistically tied down to an AK-based platform at the time of adoption. Arguably the Stechkin with stock fits the definition much better, but it was logistically irrelevant by comparison.
🟨Within the US civilian context, "PDW" is consistently used as a catch-all to mean "the lightest, smallest, handiest weapon in my collection/budget right now that's smaller than a non-NFA carbine, but more capable than an ordinary fullsize handgun, especially if I can make it fit in an inconspicuous bag and carry it where I can't inconspicuously carry a carbine."
The PDW is thus defined by the combination of its status as an "enhanced-capability defender's weapon" and a running dialogue of its intermediateness between the "standard" defender's weapon (handguns) and "the smaller weapon options typical of an offensive millitant combatant of its design era."
Definition point 4 covers the fuzziness of how a Krinkov or Honey Badger can be a PDW when a MK18 or an MP5 is not.
Rather than a fully fixed set of parameters it's an inherently historically/contextually contingent category, but contingent in a consistent way.
Even though I dont believe there to be rules to this term, IMHO Carbines are carbines, and not PDWs, despite having similar origins/use cases.. Again, just my opinion, but a PDW should not have a barrel length more than 8".
@@ScottyBennitone That's an understandable line of thought for the corner cases in the most modern era of "PDW vs carbine vs smg," but it also defines the M1 carbine out of the category when the M1 was doctrinally dreamed up for the exact role we assign a PDW- a (for the time) ultralight defensive weapon for non-frontliners to reactively engage offending threats with greater accuracy and firepower than a service handgun.
The M1 is an odd duck in that it's kind of got one foot in both worlds due to its overall length, which throws a big wrench in being able to write a simpler definition of PDW as a super short gun, but it also seems too appropriate to the category within its context to exclude.
EDIT: Drawing a hard line at 8" also excludes the P90, maybe the most undisputably PDW PDW ever but with a 10.3" barrel; but drawing a hard line at 10.3" and under would include the MK18 (also 10.3"), which I think you and I rightly agree is a carbine.
I think the Flux Raider fits the definition very well, despite cool-SF-dudes using them offensively (like the MP7) instead of issuing them to non-front-line troops that would be better served than having to lug around an M4 (or XM7 in the future)
@@tiny_tex agree, the Flux seems to me to very clearly fit within the same idea as the VZ61 and the stock-holster C96
@@ScottyBennitonePersonally, I don't like the way people treat the PDW classification (I'm not talking about the classification of weapons like the P90 and MP7, that would be another topic), because PDW in the sense that we are talking about is not a weapon classification but rather a role that a weapon has to perform in a certain military doctrine, for example, the Squad Automatic Weapon (SAW) is a classification in military doctrine to designate a machine gun that uses the same cartridge as the service rifle (sometimes it can also be fed with rifle magazines). However, you can see from the nature of this definition that several types of weapons can fit into it, including those from different classifications, such as automatic rifles, LMGs or even GPMGs/MMGs. In other words, in theory any weapon can be used for the role of a PDW, but obviously there will be weapons that fulfill this role better than others and generally these weapons are in well-classified groups such as stocked pistols, machine pistols, SMGs and carbines.
🇺🇸
Wasn't one of the reasons for the PDW, in contrast to the SMG, was the capacity to defeat SF in body armor for the rear echelon guys?
Here's the thing, to begin with you need to understand that there are differences in the classification of weapons and roles (in military doctrine), the first is intended to define a weapon by its features (such as assault rifles, which are rifles in an intermediate cartridge, fed by a detached box magazine and selective fire), while the second is a definition used to highlight the needs that a certain weapon has to fulfill when used in military doctrine (for example, the Squad Automatic Weapon, or just SAW, is a classification in military doctrine to designate a machine gun that uses the same cartridge as the service rifle, sometimes it can also be fed with rifle magazines. However, you can see from the nature of this definition that several types of weapons can fit into it, including those from different classifications, such as automatic rifles, LMGs or even MMGs).
So, to answer your question, the classification of PDW as a role precedes its classification as a weapon. In fact, weapons with the PDW weapon classification came from a NATO requirement to build weapons that would fulfill a PDW role. However, NATO required that the designed weapons should be capable of penetrating soft armor. Therefore, it was through this requirement that the PDW weapon classification was created. However, this should not be confused with the role of PDW in military doctrine.
Flux Raider with a top chop is hard to beat, except for its accuracy. I think PSA's upcoming X57 is going to be the goat of PDWs.
I'm surprised the lever action carbine wasn't mentioned especially since Henry was toting around a wheelgun. Frequently used the same cartridge as your sidearm which simplified logistics. Provided greater accuracy compared to a single action revolver. It is also faster to reload and can be easily topped up when possible. It also allowed for a greater engagement range at distance compared to a revolver.
Great point. I think a mare's leg and the sort absolutely qualify.
Wait... the m4 was supposed to be for our 2nd line troops, a shorter, lighter weight, more compact weapon than the A2. For those troops who didnt need a full sized m16, but needed something better than a pistol. It was shoe horned into frontline combat during the war on terror. Hennce why we went to the m4a1 with the much heavier barel..... we had massive overheating problems because its original barrel was designed to be lightweight for the 2nd line troops who didnt need sustained fire. That was the whole point. So it literally is the definition of a PDW. From everything i have read at least and chris bartoccis history series. I dont know if a PDW can be just a shorter version of a full length gun, but it seems to me that it meets the criteria, but im not a m4 historian, just have watched a couple utube videos and read a couple books. Maybe this needs its own video. If the m1 carbine meets the definition of a pdw, then the m4 definately does.
I don't like how people discuss this classification, because it gives the impression that PDWs are weapons (I'm not talking about weapons like the P90 and MP7, that's a topic for another conversation), while in fact PDW is the role that a weapon has to peforme in a certain military doctrine, in this case, in theory it is possible to use several different types of weapons for this role, however, there will be weapons that better fit the needs that the role in that military doctrine demands.
I think the real trick would be to fund a characteristic definition that can separate an MP5K from an MP5K-PDW, and a SCAR-PDW from other SBRs like the MK18, while including things that are generally accepted as PDWs, like the MP7 or P90.
I would argue OAL of a gun (I forget the exact number I came up with) in its most compact form, and three points of contact would be a good metric. It filters out basically all SBRs and full size SMGs, and the regular MP5K, while keeping the SCAR-PDW, but it makes the P90 and M1 carbine outliers.
I was about to get an HK Sp5K-PDW, but then realized that I'm not a tier 1 operator running on the razors edge, so I went with the full size HK SP5 instead. No regrets haha
You should have got it..and in reverse stretch.
I believe the PDW is actually more beneficial if we see it as a civilian concept. Concealed carry is a viable option for a lot of the time, but since the pandemic, bag guns have substantially gained ground. Could you do a takedown style rifle or split AR upper/lower in a bag? Sure. But all of the pros a PDW has, smaller caliber, smaller frame, still shoulderable, and better accurate firing for 100-200 yards why not choose a fiream purpose built for portable, concealable, and accurate quick deployment shooting?
I’m convinced that if not for arbitrary laws, the PDW would be the most prominent CCW.
@@ST-zm3lm I agree overall, but less focused on CCW. Everything is a tradeoff until it isn't. A pistol is more concealable than a PDW, at the cost of performance in every other area. For *home defense* concealability is irrelevant, but compactness and single-hand ability (because your support hand is constantly needed for everything but support) matter much more than a "real" rifle's ability to make shots out to ranges you could never possibly defend in court. Likewise for uniformed police patrols, and also hunting. Half the US (where far more than half the deer and deer hunters live) is forest cover where shots are well within the range of an SBR, and handiness is critical.
@ I’d imagine hyper compact PDWs are around the corner with the Flux Micro being among the earliest- the same size as a Glock 19 but with a stock/brace. If a more reliable system than a 365/320 can be utilized (or indeed, something designed from the ground up,) I firmly believe it’d be viable, legal issues aside. For home defense/hunting, a lightweight rifle is perfectly sufficient and gives more options and lethality.
The PDW was born from the prominent NATO PDW project in the 90's. Unlike many other terms, this one is definitively coined for military employment.
for one, i'd always consider the mp9 as a smg or a machine pistol even. But not the mp7, and i couldn't tell you why. Is it the special caliber? or something else...
Maybe because you can holster a mp7?
I love my TP9. It’s great for carrying when I go to places like Seattle or church. I’m on our “security” team and have a service dog that is cross trained in explosives detection.
Being able to whip out a TP9 instead of my Glock is super handy even though it’s definitely shower to draw than my G45 in appendix.
Your "Church" needs a "security team" 😂
@@zoiderschurches are viewed as soft targets as such those looking to commit mass murder to to those places. It makes sense to have extra security
@ yes. Have you not seen how they get targeted by shooters?
12:00 what is the provenance of this photo?
could be airsoft based on eyewear honestly
With the release of the Ruger RXM, the door is now open for Flux to make a Raider variant compatible with Gen 3 Glock slides. My credit card is standing buy.
This is my hope as well. I love the idea of the raider but I won’t touch a modern Sig with a 39 1/2’ pole.
Nice thing about pistol calibers (especially indoors) is they don't have as much kaboom as a sawed off rifle. A .45 cal subsonic would be even better. Because the muzzle devise on the AK may help, but, its still going to hurt if you don't have hearing protection. So will a sawed off M4
Forgive my lack of knowledge but a M1 Carbine and a Mini 14 sorta look the same apart from Cal are they the same ish ?
Great info! Thanks!
One point I'd add is that a PDW by design is meant to be a gun that is NOT used, a backup weapon for people whose main job isn't using a gun and who 99.99% of the time aren't gonna use them.
Some people say the HK SP5 full size is too big compared to the PDW, but I think that if you're already gonna be putting a big suppressor on it anyway, then the SP5 is just fine. Even with my 7.5" Alleycat 36, I can still fit the SP5 in a tennis backback (which btw, if you are looking for a 'non-descript' bag to carry a PDW in, I highly recommend tennis *backpacks* specifically.
PDW was not just an in-between the main rifle and the pistol, it was also supposed to be "better" than the already existing submachinegun (which was also an in-between), either lighter, more controllable, more accurate or with a bigger punch, with greater range, or overall just plain more capable, than the SMG.
The MP5 works very well as a PDW (in usage) because it is more controllable and more accurate than your typical WW2 open bolt SMG, and lighter than some of them.
The best PDW is the one in your hand when you absolutely need it the most. That said I like my Scorpion, AP5-P, KP9 etc... all are very capable tools for those 2 am uninvited guests at the back door.
*So if you can shoulder it it’s a PDW?*
17:12 what is the ak? on the right?
(Never mind 🤦🏻♂️)
I suggest the first firearm PDW was a pistol. Our M1 Carbine was a WW2 version of a previous attempt in the PDW when they first made carbine versions of the rifle. Next, we may see experts advocating for warriors using their pistol as a defensive tool to get to their PDW or to their PDR (Personal Defense Rifle). I made the latter by modifying a M1 with a .308 18" barrel and Smith brake. As a PD weapon, I advocate extending that quick defense need to say you need a red dot device on the weapon. I note you show both with and without the red dot. Also, that old idea of a stocked pistol with a red dot can fill the basic PDW role. Good topic.
The PDW is an institutional solution by militaries to the problem of issuing pistols to rear echelon people who cannot use them effectively.
Just train more.
Requires instructors, range time, range facilities, ammunition. All of these cost money.
A PDW achieves pistol master effectiveness with novice training requirements.
The best weapon to be proactive with is bigger, heavier, and harder hitting. It is unnecessary when Frontline combat is not your role. You pick your pdw based on what is effective in your environment but manageable in your role. A pistol stabilizer is the most restricted option. An sbr with a light barrel for patrol is the most liberal option.
Great video as always
Practical applications for a civilian; -something you keep in your car in case something happens that might require more accuracy, firepower, and or rounds then a regular pistol.
-home defense
-someone smaller or weaker than average like a petite woman or a little person/dwarf
-security guards at a population center like an airport or a mall in which it's not practical to carry around a full length rifle, but the ranges would sometimes be longer than what a pistol is built for.
-hiking or otherwise outdoors in which carrying around a falling rifle isn't practical, but pistols are not sufficient in one of the other categories mentioned before.
-a backpack gun In which you would draw your pistol first, get behind cover, and then deploy the more effective PDW
-Because it's a fun range toy
In my opinion these PDWs are the perfect fill for home defense. More reliable accuracy than a pistol. Shorter and more maneuverable than a rifle. Less concussion than a rifle. Many have longer barrels than pistols, getting better lethality for the same cartridge. Easy light/pressure pad attachment. Easier for small framed people than a rifle, safer operation for less knowledgeable people than a pistol.
These very much have their place in the civilian world.
Personal Defense Weapon
Sweet, I didn't know 9-hole had a second channel!
What about the Genesys 12?
Can't a PDW be simplified to: 7* inch barrel or shorter, pistol caliber, and a (collapsible/retractable) stock?
What an awesome video!
9/10 Josh tried to bring out a rattler and Henry said, “No way Jose”
I don’t see how the Rattler couldn’t fit the definition of a PDW.
@ maybe they thought it was redundant to the krink? All I see are two PDW’s that could be replaced by a rattler lol
Nice revolver, Henry!
Officially...
A Personal Defense Weapon is a compact high capacity weapon with an effective range of 200 yards or greater meant for non-combat personnel (eg, tanker crews) to be able to return fire against opponents armed with standard military arms. For example the P-90 and H&K MP-7 are PDWs because of their compactness and meeting the minimum effective range requirements. Standard machine pistols and submachineguns can't really meet these requirements unless they're chambered for high velocity accurate ammunition that can support an effective range of 200+ yards (eg, not 9mm under any circumstances).
That C96 puts brass into low earth orbit 😲
Is my SIG ACP a PDW?
Nice cut Josh
Actully C96 was a primary weapon for most military officer or rebel in China during the WWII and Chinese civil war.
Personal Dual/Duty Weapon
We did an introduction video into modern PDWs
The biggest thing holding purpose built PDW imho is how they cost too much compared to a standard rifle. For SF guys it doesn't matter, but for the rear echelon forces it does.
No, it is the logistical tail of yet another calibre.
@@michaelw2288 not all are a different calibre.
The time of the 10.5 is over. The time of the PDW has come
imho PDW is a rather pistol with attachable stock like a c96 or Glock with KPOS or UZI or Ingram or TP9 or Sig Sauer with system Flux or CP30 - for defence its enough on distance 50 meter. If you want to operate with more long distance is better to use another ammo. 9 mm parabellum or 10 mm or .45 is good work with silencer - enough energy stay on low subsonic speed on distance 50 - 100 meter but new personal armor easy stop them. 7.62x25 ammo have lighter bullet but high penetration capacity and more better balistic at longer distance - aproximatly 100 мeter. 5.7x28 is good on distance 100-200 meter but bullet is more light and less letal espacialy versus armored targets but low recoil give it more accuracy. So each one must define forself what is better for him but remember more powerful ammo need more weight of "PDW" - and less ammo you can cary each day.
One side for logistics-
A case of military 5.56 is 1640 rounds, but the same size case of 9mm is 2000 rounds
Can pack more info am ASP
Intent is a really frustrating tool for categorization. I would prefer objective measures, such as overall length, energy of the cartridge, fire modes (semi/full auto), etc. Unfortunately the world is not always that cut and dry, and technological changes would certainly render many definitions obsolete over time. Thanks for your thoughts as always.
In engineering we use the term "Use Case" and a Use Case analysis looks at all the different cases of how we expect the thing to be used. UC is a very good way at looking at this problem.
The UC of "Rear Echelon have to defend themselves against enemy assault" was the driving UC for NATO style PDW.
These items have been adopted for other UC, such as " Lead climber in assault party" and "Covert approach in urban environment", both distinctly non-defensive.
YES!
Imo. It has evolved to a weapon that can be concealed under a loose coat. Or stowed in a briefcase/bag without having to assemble it
‘Cough’: TP9
11:44
When the AR market making one ☝️ of those for ARs
The new SP5k's literally have "PDW" in their name and is written on the firearm, so it's the only true PDW :)
Pistol Caliber/ Direct /😮Weapons
Maybe the PDW range is the perfect place for bulpubs? I mean, nothing is more compact while haveing a longer barrel.
Two sticky outy bits, the mag and the grip. Better to combine them.
The ST Kinetics CPW is a rarely mentioned example.
@@michaelw2288 Hey, you are of course right when it comes to the usual pistol rounds. But I would be curious to see the effects of a bulpub .50 AE or 30 carbine in a CQB environment, Bodyguards and Solders in the rear. I mean these cartiges have not really a place in a 'normal' rifle because simply other cartiges of similar size do better job or are more common in this style of rifle and make the handle bulky in a hand gun. They have a pretty flash though. 😀
And if it weren't for certain unconstitutional government agencies the PDW would be far more useful for most civilians than full size rifles (for most scenarios) Civilians generally don't go looking for trouble. So having a reactive weapon would make more sense for most people.
sunglasses: are these RB3478 that henry is wearing?
Military police/security have gone from most w rifles and a few pistols to everybody with a pistol and a rifle. If it's bigger than a pistol it will be there when you need it here, and when you go there to get it, you might as well grab a carbine/rifle
My Flux 365 Raider should get here in the mail.....TODAY!!
Pistol/ Direct/ Weapon
I think simi-automatic only PCC’s as PDW’s are fairly silly.
Why not? Ever do quick bursts of double taps with an MP5K in semi?
The Problem is that PDW is a vague term but oPDW was a set of specific requirements. A lot of people say PDW but they mean the oPDW.
6:57 That cartridge tho
If the M1 carbine was chambered in 5.56, it would make more sense. Hence, the M4 dominating it in every which way...
a pdw is any gun that can fit in back pack in my opinion
19:13 "I will know it when I see it."
😂too bad the politicians making the laws can't say that
I know a lot of people will disagree with me but I personally think a pdw should be chambered in something like .300 blackout, 5.45x39 or 5.56. but for intended purpose the 4.6 is good and the 5.7 is as well. I think pistol calibers out of non pistols is kind of worthless other than subguns. But that's me personally.
PDW = Compact SMG goes brrrr
What about legal logistics. Sub 2000 and Smith folding carbine aren't SBRs and they get the blast out away from your face.. Less burnt powder.... No HK stickers tho...
I just KNOW there's a C-96 in that stock on the table...
Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart famously said, “I know it when I see it”
Yes, the well-known gun porn case.
Maybe on a linear scale, the PDW are closer to a pistol and SMGs are closer to a rifle
Silencerco completely dropped the ball on what they have in the Maxim 9 operating system. Extend the barrel 2 inches, add another baffle and Strike Industries Bravo type chassis and they could have the best PDW on the market, and one that could get government contracts with its ability to be converted to auto.
They used to call them SMGs.
The M-1 Carbine is not between a rifle and a pistol, but between a rifle and a submachinegun. An MP-5 is always a submachinegun. An M-1 Carbine is a carbine, a Uzi or other submachinegun is a submachinegun. A PDW is a short barreled selective fire weapon chambered in a unique cartridge not used in pistols, carbines, or rifles, designed to defeat body armor while remaining a lightweight weapon lower than that of a submachinegun.
The submachinegun of that era was a Thompson: twice the weight of the M1 Carbine.
@@michaelw2288 You forgot the Grease Gun. Submachinegun M3.
@@franciscofranco4520 No, the M1C concept was from 1938, final design in 1941 and full production by 1942, The M3 was specified and designed in 1942 after the M1C was in service.
@@michaelw2288 You're babbling. The United States Submachine Gun, Cal. .45, M3 was a replacement for the Submachine Gun M1928 and M1 variants. The United States carbine, caliber .30, M1, is a carbine and designed as so. It is not a PDW, nor were any of the above submachine guns PDWs.
The Answer to the question, what is a PDW is in WWI the Artillery Luger, in WWII it is the M1 carbine. In a military roll (truck driver, engineer and pioneer) is more and more difficult to answer. In a civillian zenario two features are important: No over penetration and easier to aim than a pistol (100m effectivness) my answer is SigSauer X-Ten with a shoulder stock.
All else aside, a PDW has to be something that looks good being carried on the person of men in suits & sunglasses.
I don’t think the M1 carbine truly fits the PDW definition if just because it predates that concept properly speaking, there always have been second tier weapons that are somewhat reduced in size in someway, but still don’t really properly fit into PDW, so to speak, even if that’s how they were utilized. Artillerymen, drivers, and cooks have always had some sort of carbine or reduced length sword, etc.
The MP5K in any iteration is a PDW. I think a better definition of a PDW, rather than saying a bridge is putting rifles and pistols, cause that includes all sorts of things. Is to say that it is in enhanced above a (standard) pistol in lethality and stabilization hardware for a broader and more significant amount of use, particularly for defense, and is indented for practical easy carriage without interference to a primary purpose. Which catches most of your stocked pistols, even those that were strictly a standard pistol with a bracket or rail for attachment of a miniature stock, but also includes your purpose built pistol caliber, or intermediate cartridge items. The original scorpion is a very good example of a PDW.
How come the micro uzi and Mac-10 are not here? 🤭🤭
The PDW is not to be confused with the P.Diddy Diddled You.
Personal Defense Weapon implies it's meant to be carried most of the time but also something more capable than a standard side arm. A modern PDW would be a select fire, pistol caliber medium sized firearm. I have no Pedigree to back up any of this.
Still waiting for someone to come out with something roughly equidistant between 9mm and 5.56, with a power factor about where .30 Carbine is but with better external ballistics. 5.7 and 4.6 make too many compromises for fitting inside of a handgun grip profile and full auto controllability.
That would be 10mm, but market forces decide.
The feature of having the mag inside the grip is a significant consideration, but that design form factor has no name so is generally ignored.
7.5 FK should have been this but it's expensive, proprietary and launched with too many reliability issues
@@michaelw2288 I agree. My .300BLK PDW is substantially shorter (stock collapsed) and lighter than a P90. Mag in grip is the best (only?) way to go shorter than that; my .357SIG PDW is 12 1/8" in the stowed position and gets 7-800+ ft/lb (better than a short 5.56) out of its 6" barrel.
The problem with handgun cartridges like 10mm and .357 Sig is that their velocity and energy fall off too rapidly to be effective at distances outside of typical handgun engagements. You really need something with a better ballistic coefficient that's capable of carrying that energy further to reach 300m.
There needs to be a distinction between MP7 size PDWs and P90 size PDWs. The latter is probably fine to use 9mm with the intended compromise being in favour of concealability, versus one that is essentially a light rifle that trades compactness for longer reach.
@@natalyasparrow6748 300m was the specified effective range for the M1 Carbine, and .300BLK can do the same MV/ME (but with streamlined bullets and optics) from a 7" barrel. The handgun cartridges are for when compactness is absolutely essential. The "downsides" of .357SIG (2-3 fewer cartridges from the same length mag, or 1/2" longer mag for the same capacity) are trivial, and more than counterbalanced by the fact that it has twice the energy for the same projectile.
And once again everyone forgets about magnum pistol cartridges.
So how about a stocked bullpup or a swing/folding stock normal PDW gun that has a twelve to sixteen inch barrel.
Also why wasn't there a divide between pistol cartridges and rifle cartridges for SBR qualifications.
A lot of PDWs are being used as Personal Attack Weapons. Same device, different " Use Case".
Funny how it's called a PDW yet weapon of war is thrown around 😮💨🤦🏽♂️
I feel like Stargate referring to the P90 as a "weapon of war" has a part in that, but most of the narrative being driven today is coming from ignorant anti-gunners who believe all firearms are the Devil's paintbrush.
The PDW was born from the prominent NATO PDW project in the 90's. Unlike many other terms, this one is definitively coined for military employment... which would make it a weapon of war. It doesn't matter because "weapons of war" don't mean that it's bad, nor should that be a blanket criteria for writing laws.