I have to say that this so far your best made, edited, and structured video so far. Fluent conversation and overall great subject for top10 list - job well done!
+Matt Bayes all 3 rolling specifically a "10" is 1/8000. But all 3 rolling the same (regardless of the value) is only 1/400. First number doesn't matter, only if the next 2 match it.
Not all numbers would have been as noteworthy as 10, since it's a top ten list. If they had all rolled 12's, for example. 1, 6, 7, 11 and 20 would also have been noteworthy, so I give it a 6/8000 (3/4000). :P
Maybe one of those casual "trash" which are still fun anyway, or games which break the usual wisdom about agency, balance, elimination etc yet somehow aren't less fun that their "properly designed" contemporaries
I love turning on these guys in the background, ya I'll pay attention the first time I watch. But just half listening with the silliness in the background. It's a ton of fun.
Great top 10 Keep up the good work! Just to clarify everyone, Caravelas is about the Portuguese Discoveries, ships are from Portugal, not from Spain. It is okay to mix both up but i would like to pass the message :-P
Wow guys! I think this was the best top 10 you have ever produced. You all make valid points backed up with solid opinions. I was engrossed the entire time. Partly because of the conglomerate knowledge base but mostly because of the way you 3 get along, have fun and laugh. :) (and no Jason) Thanks for all that you do! BTW: just got my promo packs and having almost too much fun ;) And Hey .. I want that Lime-Green Dice Tower shirt! Take mah monay nao, Plox!
Great episode, thanks! Catan is on my list, the Candyland of Euros. The strategy to randomness ratio is very low, and often first or last place is determined with a long long way to go. And Cities and Knights gives you even more time to wait for the pre-determined partial outcome!
Totally agree with the xwing/net runner thoughts. Star Trek Attack Wing fits in that same bill also. I also struggle with the fact you have to spend at least an hour planning your game build, probably even longer than that now, before you even sit at the table to play. In the early stages it was a 1/2 hour, which for what looks like a coffee table game is still too long. But it's a well designed game and fun to play if you have time and people your skill level to match with.
Zee, the "BSG in an hour" you want is Dark Moon. It literally started as a shorter BSG, a fan made variant called "BSG Express". It cuts out movement and ship combat for a 60-90 minute game. It also replaces the cards for skill check with hidden die rolls. The traitors will try to submit bad rolls, claiming it was the best they rolled. Players have to eventually determine who is lying. It works SO much better than the cards. Shortened BSG meets Liar's Dice.
Love the reference to F-Zero and Wipeout. I've met some tabletop players that seem to hold themselves above video games for some reason, it's nice to know that isn't the case here. Respect, Zee! :P
The 3 of you included Netrunner on this list and even for the same reason. There is the obvious solution that you play the game against eachother ... I was a bit surprised to hear that you all said that you find nobody to play it with. If it's a good game (never played it myself), it shouldn't be a problem convincing eachother.
Tabletop Simulator for the PC is the best thing to happen to introduce new players to X-Wing, imo. I'm just starting out with it and I agree that it's way too daunting on the surface, but having TTS available to play with my friends, netdeck lists, and see what's fun to play, allows me to play the game without limits, and figure out what minis I want to drop my cash on.
Regarding Zee talking about "But Wait There's More", what if you play a house rule variant where everybody gets a different random product card instead of everybody using the same product? That seems like it would solve the issue he had with the game.
Doug Rosengard that breaks the theme of the game. It's a rip on 'those' infomercials. The players aren't selling different vacuums, they are telling you different features of the same one.
Hey Dice Tower. Idea: Top 10 Character Sheets, or Character Boards for a Board Game. I think its a pretty important aspect, u love bigger, smaller, more complex, a lot of attributes, simple, lot of changeable things... thats an idea. Whats ur favourite character sheet? U love to write with pencil, u use tokens on it, u love to place cards on it, it has an inventory, what kind of inventory.... etc.
Actually, I'd like to see this as well. A critique of the physical aspects of the game, rather than just the mechanics. That's an interesting topic. I know that there's a distinction between the feel of using tiny colored blocks vs. using meeples, and there's a difference for me between using the official Pathfinder sheets and using sheets I designed for myself to put the information in a visual order that makes better sense to my brain (e.g. combat section vs. noncombat, and the items in the order they'd be referred to within the encounter, and the skills by category instead of alphabetical).
Ah the curse of becoming a Tourney game. People who don't know it very well, and people who optimize the heck out of it. Not a pleasant domain for people who know it, and DON'T want to deep dive the mechanics. I guess you could go in drafting, but the super players still have the advantage.
Agreed. That is the only way I would consider playing net runner. It doesn't have to be core vs core, but it does have to be one fixed data pack/core deck vs another. No mixing from all the sets. Just too much to know to be effective and building a deck.
I think one of the big things with Netrunner is that the design of the game is very different, and took quite a long time to figure the game out. It's not so much an expansion thing (decks for a long time ran mostly core set cards, and you can do fine for the most part), it's just more of a player-base learning curve. Magic (and it's derivatives) have a much more straight-forward value analysis. This card costs X and has Y strength and is fundamentally very tit-for-tat. It's not as simple as that (or at least it's not that) in Netrunner.
I agree that magics card value determination is a lot more straight forward, but in both cases knowledge of and access to all existing cards and time played both continue to drive the odds of winning higher. It has a very long curve of expertise. Too long for my taste. Too much of an investment to move up that curve.
Yeah, I agree. Having loved the original I avoided Netrunner for ages, but eventually I took the plunge and got a core set plus about 3 data packs and took about 8 cards out of each so that the base decks can be tweaked and have a few nasties put in them ever so slightly (5 mins at the start of playing). This does us fine - the great reboot with the different factions included in the base box gives enough to play the game with some variety. I will _never_ play competitively, nor play someone else's deck, and I have no interest in doing so, so what I've got is a perfect amount for what I want from the game. If you are tempted by the game (and it's great) and are happy to all play out of the same box, then I'd recommend it.
X-Wing is another that just took off and passed me by at light speed. I couldn't possibly keep up with the pace of collecting other players were able to maintain.
TI4. I went to a teach-and-play and it was still an overwhelming experience. I'd rather play a few games in the time it takes to play one match of TI4.
I love netrunner, and teaching it, but I am use to teaching games so I know how to present myself and the game. however I can understand how it is hard to get to the table, and how someone would be turned off by it.
Sam, here it comes. The inevitable argument surely foreseen to be made for WAR OF THE RING: According to the books, the nature of things was that the Shadow had long planned the war below the surface and pushed it to the surface at a time that seemed entirely in its favor. The other nations' reactions to the development and to the actual run of that war were quite different. In my humble opinion, the game mirrors the described outset inequalities, varying approaches, diplomatic issues, strategic problems, as well as the impossibilities of carrying it out against a massive, even overpowering opponent very nicely and very thematically. And the game does more: It let's you explore a ton of possible options to re-write the war in most of its parts besides also finding the time for individual stories and tragedies (a genius stretch). I would argue that the game let's you re-write a loved (war) plot more elegantly and thoroughly than many other games claim to do (e.g. Star Wars: Rebllion, after some plays most possible plot twists seem to have been revealed). Just because a war does not follow the all to usual line of "boom, here we all are, let's all fire away and see who stands last" does not mean that a) it is not a war and b) it is not a very intriguing war (to be carried out on cardboard that is). Yes, they could have found another title like "THE UNFOLDING, THE EXECUTION AND THE END OF THE WAR OF THE RING" but how pedantic would that have been? And how pedantic is it for us to make a request in that regard. That a player has not moved his nation(s) "at war" at the right time may be very well founded on his own making. The game is complex and long and does not hit my table as much as I would like but once it unfolds (even with its current and upcoming expansions) it does shine. I would have loved to play it against you.
I agree. Even in todays world conflict does not have to lead to all out war. Look at Ukraine - Russia practically took part of it but no war aggains Russia is waged by its allies. Perhaps folks in Middle Earth were not attacked by the Shadow but decided (by referendum or similar means) that thay would want to ally with Sauron. Look at Saruman - this is exactly what he did ;) It is all peacetalks and misunderstandings, no need to automatically go to war, Sam.
I think Sam got the wrong idea, as many ppl did when first played it. The good side never wants to make an all scale war with Shadow, because it's a suicidal mission. When human, elf or dwarf dies, they die. When Orcs, Goblins, Uruk hai die, they go back to the reserve. The fellowship needs to bring the ring to Mordor, while others tried to hold the ground until the ring is destroyed, NOT marching to Mordor. Besides the Fellowship only needs 4 military points to win. Use some action to threat some weakly defended Shadow forts. The game for me is elegantly designed, everything seems to cope well with the movie (i didnt read the book, stopped after Bilbo saga). Have the fellowship moving around, send Aragorn, Legolas... to armies to help, sneak attack, march armies to force Shadow engage to make some nation at war.... A lot of things to try that can make me play it any day.
Well Said Christoph Rehse. War of the Ring is, by far, my favorite game. I'm just learning to use the two expansions for it, and find that they add so much to an already amazing game!
This was an interesting video for me. I only started my collection of modern board games 3 or 4 years ago, and so far am up to about 30 games. With relatively so few games in my collection, it came as a shock to discover there are already games that I find myself avoiding - particularly as I once loved them so much! I'm not sure if any of them quite falls into the "I'll never play this again" category, but there's 2 that stand out for me that are certainly coming close to that. 1. Settlers of Catan This was my first modern board game and, along with Carcassonne, precedes what I consider to be the "start of my collection" by a number of years. I hadn't yet discovered the wealth of other games that were available as I contined to play Catan, and like so many other gamers it's formed a huge part of my gaming history, but I simply don't desire to play it any more. I think it's been over a year now since it last came to the table, despite me having almost every expansion available. So why doesn't this hit the table any more? Simply because I think there are better games out there. One frustrating element of Catan for me, that surfaced in virtually every game of it I ever played, was that at least 1 player would end up, relatively early on, being completely cut off from any chance of winning and would spend most of the game not being able to do anything much. Once they finally DID get to a point where they could start building, the end of the game was pretty much already decided. I don't like it when anyone is only still playing because to do so would ruin the sequence of the game for everyone else, and yet that happened all too often with Catan. I don't necessarily think Catan is a BAD game, and it's given me a lot of joy over the years, but now that I'm a more experienced gamer I know what I like more, and I know more clearly what I believe makes a good game, and Catan now sits there....largely forgotten, while my collection grows around it. Poor little guy. This same reasoning leads me on to my other game.... 2. Village Village was one of the first games I got once I'd discovered modern board gaming "properly".The Christmas my collection truly began, I received several new games, including Village. By the time it was wrapped under the tree, I'd spent several months discovering even more games that I wanted and already I was thinking that, despite my excitement at getting Village, there were already things I'd have probably asked for in it's place had I known they existed. As with Catan, I've had a lot of fun with this game, and I probably WILL still play this again at some point, but I have a friend who's recently discovered it and has suggested we play it several times of late, and each time I've found myself not really wanting to play. I think this again boils down to my increased exposure to, and experience with the wealth of games that are now out there. I like Village. I think it's a fun game.......the first few times. However, my recent games have all been pretty much the same game. This could partly be down to those I'm playing with, going for the same routes to victory every single time, but I've found the truth to be that there really just isn't that much choice in what to do from game to game, even with the Village Inn expansion (which helped with this to a point, but not as much as I'd hoped). With many other games that I like, I find myself choosing a different route to victory each time because either the game conditions are different from game to game, and therefore require a different strategy, or because I genuinely want to try something different. With Village, I find that, while I could pick something different to do from last game, I'm ultimately only doing so out of a desperate attempt not to play the exact same game I had last time, and the time before that, and the time before that. The problem with this is that, as I shift to a different victory route, so does everyone else, and so we still end up having the same game, but just with a shift round the table as to who's doing what. The predetermined routes are still there and there's not a lot of room for creative strategy here in my personal experience. Essentially, it's the variety in game play experience from game to game that I feel is lacking for me with this one and I just can't find the enthusiasm to suggest playing it again.
Great video guys! I am curious to know if any of you would play Vlaada's Mage Knight Board game again (this would be my personal #1). It is an amazing game that packs in tons of great mechanics; dice drafting, deck building, world exploration, etc. I personally feel that it packs too much into a single game, and the resulting rules complexity is too steep a step for me to re-learn just for a one-off 3 hour gaming experience. I'll just play dice masters to cover the drafting and deck building , and rinse it down with Return of the Heroes for world exploration. Shout out to Tom and Sam; I hope that I one day play Overpower again!
That and the components are (no offense) complete ass compared to what's on the market, aka Gloomhaven, Mechs vs Minions, Twilight Imperium, etc. Also has alot of poorly explained/implemented/needlessly confusing mechanics that would have made the game better without. (Such as resistances and how they work, passive armor, what allies can do, how summoning units attack, how some of the scenarios work).
Doomtown Reloaded, while not as complex as Netrunner had the same problem. Everyone was obsessed over getting every release, and I just wanted to make a few perfect decks to play with friends. Anytime I asked for help in building a deck, the answer was bascially buy everything and use a few cards from each pack.
What Tom says about X-Wing Miniatures is kind of how I feel about Magic: The Gathering. I think it's a great game, but everyone I know that still plays is too serious about building their decks/collections. I want to be able to play casually without a tournament-honed, up-to-date deck against someone else who is similarly casual about their deck-building.
Ricochet Robots is probably my most favorite board game, ever. It's cool, it's quick, it requires you to think and noone ever is responsible for your defeat except your skill. Very little room for sheer luck. More than that, it scales for any group easily (cannot be easier, I believe) and you can practice it alone if your want, and it definitely wakes up your attention and focus. I'm not supergood at it, but I'm fine, and in a good company and good state of mind I'd play every time I'm offered to.
Oh wait, so both Tom, Sam and Zee all had Netrunner on a list for the same reason that they don't have anyone to play the game casually. Dude, maybe play it together?!?
As someone who played with a friend casually for a long time: you get used to someone else's style real fast. Both of us weren't strangers to branching out (except I will never play HB because it's full of scum), but we still came to understand what each other was looking for and either playing into it at our own detriment or building to counter it at theirs.
I'm not sure I will ever play Pandemic again. I love the game, but after playing Legacy, I just don't see the regular game being as exciting or engaging for me. we just finished legacy, so maybe I'm just burnt out on it right now, but regular pandemic will not be seeing the table for me in a while.
I recently played Arkham Horror with a new set of rules.. and it was frantic. never thought I would play a 3hour game of Arkham followed by a 2 hour game of it. (basically, a portal per investigator following just the portal and clue lines and following the full card of the first player, Portals take two hits on the same location to open, in this rules there are rifts and different ways of dealing with a rift and a portal - it takes 1-2 turns to close a rift, 2-3 to close a portal... it means a LOT happening all the time.)
Sad thing is. I feel every cardgame has the Android: Netrunner problem. At a certain moment you just need to go with the hardcore crowd and go along with the meta or not be able to play with the vast majority of people. And if you do you won't have a very good time cause you have very little chance of winning.
I feel like Summoner Wars avoids this. Yes, you can buy Reinforcement Packs, but for the most part you don't deck build, you just hand a person a deck, take another one, and go for it. Star Realms, likewise. Basically the games that don't have you preconstructing your deck.
Honestly it really depends on your community. As someone who's been playing magic since highschool, I've experienced both good communities that welcome anyone to play and others that made me quit for a couple years. The good thing with magic is that if you play with set decks, or give a new player a deck you designed to be pretty competitive, I find they can usually catch on to how the game plays and you don't have to really dumb down your decision making. A collectible game I would recommend that I'm in love with is a card/dice hybrid called dicemasters. While it still has meta cards that dominate, the fun thing is most characters are playable, and there are things like globals and basic actions that are shared between both players. Some of the most powerful things in the game both players will have access to if someone brings it in their team.
Yeah, I agree. That's exactly why I stopped playing Magic the first time. (I kind of got into it again when some friends started playing Commander, since that's different enough from "normal" Magic for the game to not be "solved" right away, but I lost interest again when a lot of friends started making very competitive decks...) So far though, Force of Will has been pretty fun in my area. I think part of the key is having a game where there's a lot of choices to make during the game, as opposed to coming up with a strategy when you build the deck and only slightly varying it to counter specific decks you go up against.
+Dexter Mahler netrunner is starting a rotation in early 2017. they are getting rid of the first two blocks (12 packs) which did have a couple of overpowered cards.
I know you don't mean EVERY card game, because there are a ton of fun games either using cards in addition to other mechanics (as a main part of the game) or are just card games, that are still great for beginners and people who've been playing for awhile. Sushi Go is fantastic once you explain how the cards and scoring work, Gloom is a game where even if you lose, the storytelling of a group will make up most of the enjoyment anyway, Sheriff of Nottingham is fantastic and I feel the base game of the Warhammer LCG is fine as well. Games that aren't solely card games, but has cards as a huge aspect of the game, that still allow for both crowds to enjoy, would be Abyss, Lords of Waterdeep. With Magic, if you're playing with a newcomer there are fun ways to keep it fun, tweaking decks to mostly be of uncommons/rares, buying Commander decks and even (as a one time only deal) buy you and your friend(s) intro decks to start things off OR buy booster packs together. There are ways to makes thing fun, you just really need to avoid the people that ONLY want to win, they tend to be unfun at every experience of play. And yes, you probably meant every card game that's a CCG, TCG or LCG, but I think things can apply to other games that use cards and end up with expansions/mini expansions. But I think at the end of the day, it REALLY comes down to people who want to play games to have fun and try to win but don't ruin it for others and then the competitive crowd that are there solely to win at any and all costs.
Magic: The Gathering I used to play this game A LOT. even landed top 8 at a Pro-Your Qualifier once. But that game is long gone for me. They just pump expansion after expansion out and it's hard to keep up. And even to just play casually, I'd have to invest in the starter decks and I'd rather put that money towards games that a wider variety of people can enjoy. Thanks for another great list guys!
No this is actually an amazing list, instead of doing something they've already done a bunch of times w lots of crossover they chose something unique. and the bants are top notch now, they've definitely grown into their role as entertainers (re: Sam and zee's improvised onomatopoeia duet).
Was expecting Chaos in the Old World. Didn't you guys say the mechanics were solid, despite the theme being too much for you? Don't remember much about it.
Love Warrior Knights so much. I agree that it's a bit too long, should never be played with six I think. In any case, I will never give up on it! So much fun!
Twilight Struggle. I enjoyed it. I can appreciate the design. But after a bunch of games, the luck factor just plays too large of a part to invest the 3 hours (and stress!) anymore. The first turn card draw, the first coup, war events, Quagmire/Bear Trap, all those are huge swings that come down to a single die roll and it's just not fun when bad luck with one of those single rolls sends you into a death spiral that costs you the game.
X-Wing Miniatures: Check out the fan made coop variant Heroes of the Aturi Cluster. AI enemy ships, plays and scales REALLY well for 1-6 players. REALLY got me back into the game.
Gloomhaven... the "Here's hundreds of hours of play in one box!" thing was awesome at the time, but now other developers keep making games like that, and there's only so much time in the day! My social group got about halfway through the modules, but there's so many other things out there on our "to play" list, it just no longer feels like it makes sense to spend yet more time on Gloomhaven... While not as fresh as it used to be, it's not really that it go stale, just we all agree we'd prefer to spend time on something newer. While I can sort of imagine being like "Hey, know what was fun? Gloomhaven. I miss that" some day, I can't imagine ACTUALLY busting it out and playing a module knowing we aren't actually getting back into it, and I definitely don't see us saying "Let's go back to routinely playing Gloomhaven. Great game, but probably dead to me.
I miss netrunner. I used to live in Tulsa and got to play at Covenant games, but when I got out of college and moved back home there was just nobody to play anymore and my collection is just sitting in a closet.
Also, I'm sorry someone was trying to make you powergame netrunner. Back when I played, a lot of people were crazy into it and wanted to optimize decks, but in my group nobody looked down on anyone. I usually made goofy decks or themed decks rather than super fantastic ones and just had fun seeing what people did to deal with my weird strategy and it was a blast. I've seen that kind of power gaming in MTG a lot though so I know the kind of person you are talking about.
I've made this mistake with every FFG LCG that I've tried. You get a core set, dip your feet in, this is great, oooh, some packs, OH DEAR LORD THEY WON'T STOP COMING. They milk them to death and you either keep up with the flood or rapidly fall behind and have no one to play with. Then you're managing all the decks for anyone you do still play with, and it gets boring because you've built all the decks and anyone who plays you really doesn't give that much of a crap about how a deck does because they didn't build it.
While I can’t fault a company for wanting to keep hitting the cash register, it is awful when a game just keeps changing like that. I’m a much bigger fan of new maps/consistent rules (Power Grid, TTR, Formula D, &c) than new components which shift the entire balance of a game.
My issue with all CCGs but particularly Netrunner is I have this threshold of complexity with deck building, where the more complicated building a good deck is, the more I like it, up to a certain point where if becomes SO much work, it starts feeling like a chore... This moment is really easy to catch, it's when a new set drops and instead of being excited to build new casual decks, I go "Sh*t, now I have to update all my competitive decks". Netrunner is so complex it was deeply satisfying to me when it came out, but I've never had my interest in a card game run it's course so fast... I was basically done by the second large expansion.
I've finally sworn off (and sold) most of the "classic" (Avalon Hill, SPI, VG) war games I played innumerable times during the 1960-80's. The nostalgic glow I used to feel when taking these off the shelf was finally outweighed by the combined negatives of simplistic rules, limited play options and crude component design.
When I saw the topic, the first game I thought of was Diplomacy. Another game I really enjoyed at the time, but don't see myself playing again is Titan
a Great game i like to play is my friends game he made 2014. its a great game but my only problem to it is how long it takes to set up/clean up and playing can take 3-5 hours +1-2 more hours if you go after the elite bosses.
I not only think Brass is a masterpiece, it’s also unique and far ahead of its time. When board games were just starting to produce these elegant and refined systems of balance, the fact Brass was made at the time long before this is incredible. It’s a good decade ahead of its time.
The two games that I can think of right now: - 1830: Felt like going to work. I can appreciate it's really well put together, but I just didn't have fun playing it. - Splendor: It's a well-designed game, easy, short and addictive. And this is why I grew tired of it after playing more than 50 times already. I also don't like the feeling when after buying a card, the one that comes next was better for you in all regards. I know it's how the game plays, it is just me: I don't enjoy it anymore.
How do you get a full game of 7 Ages in in 7 hours? It usually takes us about 10 hours to play through 3 of the ages and we're playing it quick and there is very little downtime in our games.
Yggdrasil is certainly a challenging game, but it can be fairly well "solved" (i.e. the optimal strategy is not too challenging to find if you play around with it for a while). Basically, you want to quickly clear the nearest bag of fire spirits/demons (whatever they're called) thus making it a guaranteed draw for the warriors you need (also, specialize each hero to combat a different enemy). I'd imagine this game has a similar challenge / skill curve to that of Ghost Stories, actually. :)
Caravelas: The game theme is the Portuguese Discoveries in the 15th and 16th century, and their contribution to Portuguese wealth, symbolized in the Jerónimos Monastery. It is an historic fact that the spices trade, brought by the Caravelles, had to pay a tax of 5% in Lisbon, and this tax was used to pay for the monastery construction.
Finally played my first game of BSG a few weeks ago... and I totally agree with Zee. Won't play it again. Don't think it's a bad game, I just think it's too long for what it is. I had played Dark Moon prior to that and got the same feeling out of a much shorter game. Plus I think it is hard to keep that traitor suspense in a four hour game. I like the scaled down traitor games much better.
Zee, you make me sad that you don't want to play Basari anymore. I heard about the game through word of mouth and ended up getting a used copy, and it's an absolute blast to play. Everyone loves it when it makes it to the table. I haven't gotten a chance to play the card version of the game but I don't think I'm super motivated to do so - we're still loving the board version!
Aha! Called Sam's number 1. Interesting thing is I was just thinking about getting it. I'm also a fan of Memoir 44 but I'm fond of the ancient/classical period and I don't care about blocks or minis. I'll take another look at the PDF rules and decide in the near future. I suspect I'll get Ancients even though I usually agree with Sam.
Did you get it? It's the best 2-player game that I have played. I have been through all the expansions and scenarios. If you like Memoir 44 and just want something a little extra. C&C Ancients is the right game for you.
I agree with X-Wing to an extent, and the trouble is that the designers have gone nuts with the abilities and special cards and such, to the point where the build is often more important than how you fly. I've played in a number of tournaments, even won a few, but the metagame in X-Wing right now is cancerous. The game needs to go back to the focus being on maneuver and dogfighting, not ability combos and turrets to avoid having to bother with any maneuver at all. Netrunner is fantastic. I think the only thing it suffers from is required card knowledge to play. Even being out of the game for a few months can mean you're screwed.
Would like to know Tom's thoughts at GenCon when Eric Lang announced his next game called Rising Sun is heavily influenced by Diplomacy and whether Tom was hugely disappointed by that!
Only game I have on the list is X-Wing.... Someday I may get back to it I only played a little. now that I'm retired between granddaughter and regular board games, with counters, guys not Miniatures or blocks, and watching your videos, don't have time to dislike or not appreciate any games that I have spent hard cash on. Sell some of the displeasing games? No. I'm still trying to repurchase some of the games (mostly Avalon Hill-old)that I let go many years ago when I was out of work n needed $$. Love your videos...old n new ones.
Heresy! You guys mentioned 5 games I see myself playing the rest of my life! -Brass -Steam -War of the Ring -Carson City -Castles of Mad King Ludwig On the other hand, I agree so much with you about Android Netrunner!
Your lists include Go (my top 1, BTW) and Ricochet robots (which makes the table quite often) XD However, you mentioned Mutant Meeples, which I didn't know of. Checked your review, Tom, just to realise that you showed a 6 & 7 moves combinations, when the solution was waaaay easier: 3. Guess Sam wouldn't play with me... I'd bring my stone age just in case
Tom mentioned,in mondays Q&A IIRC, he will be talking to one of the players this week so might be able to confirm a time by the weekend. He thinks probably sometime in September.
Straddllw Sam of course, I don't know about Jason but I doubt it. I believe its going to be a 4 player game, Tom,Sam,Zee and the 4th player Tom inferred would be a member of their gaming group that usually isn't on the show. But I really have no idea, I wouldn't think Tom would say 'I need to talk to the other player' rather than 'I need to talk to Jason'. Now if its a 5 player game probably Jason as well.
This was a particularly hard list for me to come up with anything for, since most games that I will probably never play again are because I don't consider them "good games". Two that I can think of that I enjoyed immensely that I won't play again because I don't (and possibly no one does anyore) own a copy are "Dark Cults" (a friend in college owned it) and "Assassin!: The Game of Time Travel" (my brother owned it)
Axis & Allies Global. A friend of mine in Dayton OH bought a kitchen table specifically to fit that game on (super long map board), but after playing it a ton of times, the length of the game is just too monstrously long.
Haven't played all of the games on your lists, but I agree with most of them. Here's mine: 10. 7 Wonders An amazing game, and still one of my favorite games of all time. I have all the expansion, and I love the game. However, only a few people I play with are familiar with it, and teaching it is really not very easy. I used to play it a lot with my sister, but with 7 Wonders: Duel out, we'd both rather play that. I hope to play it again from time to time, but it probably won't be that much. 9. 1775 Rebellion I've played it once, and it was a lot of fun. However, playing it again doesn't really appeal to me. I know I'll have fun when playing it, but I feel like I've tried it all during that one game. It doesn't feel like there's a lot more for me to explore in that game. Still a great game though. 8. Among Nobles Also a game I've only played once, and one that I enjoyed. There are some holes in the rules though, that kinda dragged down the game. I love the theme and the painting-esque art is pretty neat too. It likely won't see that much more play, but I like it. 7. Forbidden Stars I can see that it's a great game, but it's really not for me. I'd much rather play something like Eclipse, and I'll probably not play this again. 6. Gloom I've played it a couple of times, and while I want to like it, I'm having a hard time enjoying it. It's fun, but if I play with the rules on the cards, the game loses a lot of its fun for me, and if I play without it’s too simple. It’s a great game though, but not for me, sadly. 5. Kesse Rüben Might be an odd choice to have this far down the list (or even on the list), but my sisters and I actually enjoyed playing this. It was a lot of fun, but there are just so many games we would much rather play. Likely wont see any more play. 4. Snow Tails I have played Snow Tails once, during a gaming session where we played a couple of racing games. It’s a fun game, but there are other racing games I would rather play. I may play this again, but I will probably be pushing for another racing game instead. 3. Taverna It’s simple, but it feels complex when playing it. I like some of the mechanics, and it is a fun game. On one hand, I kinda wanna play it again, because once you’ve got everything figured out, it’s fun. You likely won’t figure everything out though. I don’t know. I might play it again. Who knows? 2. Isis & Osiris I love this game! I think it’s a lot of fun, and requires a bit of thinking, which I like. However, it’s not really a game I’d bring to game nights, and my family aren’t a fan of this game. So it will probably stay on the shelf for now. Great game though. 1. Smash Up I see that it’s a great game, but I doubt I'll be playing this again. It was fun the first handful of games, but by now I feel like I’ve seen it all. I know there’s a lot of combinations, but then again, there really isn’t. Had the game been a little shorter, maybe I had liked it more. For what it is though, it’s too long, and not something I’ll be suggesting.
Hmmm I have a few haha. Space Cadets Dice Duel - Just wayyyy too stressful and I HATE being yelled at constantly (Players fault not games though haha) Catan - Overplayed when I first got into gaming, while I love it and appreciate it for what it is, I have found so many other games that replace it, and I'd rather spend my limited gaming time on something new or something I like more. RoboRally - Played with 8 players which went for about 4 hours... I was sooo done after that.
I don't know if it would a top 10 list but I would love a list of things that we would like from computer games to be brought into board games. Some comedy ones obviously but I would be curious about some serious discussion on that. Mabey a brief discussion on it in on Board Game Breakfast and a longer conversation in the Backtalk segment
Chang Cheng looks cool but we weren't a huge fan of some of the wonky area control aspects... it was a middle of the road game for me and my room is too small for those!
Hmmm... I kind of agree with Diplomacy since, like Tom said, I want to keep my friends. It is a great game, but it can end up in physical battles. Okay, that was when some guys I knew were playing it as a drinking game, but still. I can absolutely see it as a great teaching game too. I could potentially see using it is an object lesson and teaching tool, but otherwise? Nah. I have the original starter deck set for the first incarnation of Netrunner, and I enjoy that (though I haven't played it since the 90s) because all it was was one of each of the decks and zero additional anything. In the same vein I enjoyed 7th Sea the CCG and Decipher's Star Wars CCG until the guys I played with were ramping up their collections and I wasn't. They had massive killer decks and I still was using basic starters and I was getting hammered every game. No fun any more. I have owned Sid Meier's Civilization for years, broke it open, looked at it, oohed and aahed over the components and have never played it. If I want Civ, I'll sit at the computer. If I want to play Civ against my friends, we'll have a hot seat game and mock each other when it's not our turn. I need to go ahead and just sell Sid Meier's Civilization because I'll never take it to the table. Railroad Tycoon also is in the "If I want to play this I'll play it on my computer" list of games. Because they were mentioned, the board-and-chit games are an interesting bunch from the old old school days of Avalon Hill. I own a copy of Avalon Hill's Gettysburg that was my dad's when he was in college in the 60's. It is a really cool looking game. Dad never finished a game of it when he was young and had more free time, and I've never even started one. As much as I love the concept and think that Gettysburg is a great historical game, I will likely never play it. There are and have been board-and-chit games that I have loved and still play (War at Sea is one of those) or that I have acquired with the intent to play but haven't had time or opportunity to yet (Kingmaker is my most recent acquisition in that category). But there are a wide variety of great board-and-chit games that I played once, enjoyed the game, and never really had the urge to play again. Looking at you Advanced Squad Leader. But the biggest and baddest game that I loved to play and used to play all night at times, but will likely never play again (and I need to sell off my copy) is Cosmic Encounter. I have some great memories of that game, and had a lot of good times playing that game, but I just really don't care if I never play it again.
6:28 that interaction with the pen is so amazing I couldn't stop laughing
I have to say that this so far your best made, edited, and structured video so far. Fluent conversation and overall great subject for top10 list - job well done!
It finally happened, the 1 in 400 chance that you all roll the same value. It brings me more joy than it really should.
That's the chances of 2 of them getting the same. 1/20 times 1/20 is 1/400 but you must multiple another 1/20 to get 1/8000
+Matt Bayes all 3 rolling specifically a "10" is 1/8000. But all 3 rolling the same (regardless of the value) is only 1/400. First number doesn't matter, only if the next 2 match it.
hmmm i need to go back to math class XP
Not all numbers would have been as noteworthy as 10, since it's a top ten list. If they had all rolled 12's, for example. 1, 6, 7, 11 and 20 would also have been noteworthy, so I give it a 6/8000 (3/4000). :P
Matt Bayes Possibly. The fact that you made a probability error while having the name Bayes is particularly ironic, though.
Next year's Kickstarter stretch goal: Tom plays Diplomacy.
For the right price!
I would LOVE to play Diplomacy with Tom!
Better yet. Netrunner with all three of them!
is there a Top Ten Guilty Pleasure games? like, games they are embarrassed or feel silly about liking? I'd watch that for sure.
Art by Galen k
@@FaceInAClock why even bother commenting
Maybe one of those casual "trash" which are still fun anyway, or games which break the usual wisdom about agency, balance, elimination etc yet somehow aren't less fun that their "properly designed" contemporaries
I love turning on these guys in the background, ya I'll pay attention the first time I watch. But just half listening with the silliness in the background. It's a ton of fun.
Ha I rewatched again two years later...
Great top 10 Keep up the good work!
Just to clarify everyone, Caravelas is about the Portuguese Discoveries, ships are from Portugal, not from Spain. It is okay to mix both up but i would like to pass the message :-P
WCP4to but it is NOT ok to mix both...
Wow guys! I think this was the best top 10 you have ever produced. You all make valid points backed up with solid opinions. I was engrossed the entire time. Partly because of the conglomerate knowledge base but mostly because of the way you 3 get along, have fun and laugh. :) (and no Jason) Thanks for all that you do! BTW: just got my promo packs and having almost too much fun ;) And Hey .. I want that Lime-Green Dice Tower shirt! Take mah monay nao, Plox!
Regarding 7 Ages, it tells you right on the box. It takes 6000 years to play.
Would be interesting to revisit this list in a few years and see if they did end up playing any of them.
It's been a few years!
@@peterc.hayward8067 sure has! 😅
Great episode, thanks! Catan is on my list, the Candyland of Euros. The strategy to randomness ratio is very low, and often first or last place is determined with a long long way to go. And Cities and Knights gives you even more time to wait for the pre-determined partial outcome!
Totally agree with the xwing/net runner thoughts. Star Trek Attack Wing fits in that same bill also. I also struggle with the fact you have to spend at least an hour planning your game build, probably even longer than that now, before you even sit at the table to play. In the early stages it was a 1/2 hour, which for what looks like a coffee table game is still too long. But it's a well designed game and fun to play if you have time and people your skill level to match with.
Great top ten! Good concept.
Also Tom, I thought the same as you for Floater
1:23 At first I thought he said "Panda McLegacy," and I was like, "Why have I never heard of this game?!"
Our brains can be dumb sometimes.
MrOneofthousands1994 I would play that game!
I almost died laughing at this comment.
MrOneofthousands1994 someone SHOULD make this game! ☺️
Zee, the "BSG in an hour" you want is Dark Moon. It literally started as a shorter BSG, a fan made variant called "BSG Express". It cuts out movement and ship combat for a 60-90 minute game. It also replaces the cards for skill check with hidden die rolls. The traitors will try to submit bad rolls, claiming it was the best they rolled. Players have to eventually determine who is lying. It works SO much better than the cards. Shortened BSG meets Liar's Dice.
Sounds like something zee would really love
Love the reference to F-Zero and Wipeout. I've met some tabletop players that seem to hold themselves above video games for some reason, it's nice to know that isn't the case here. Respect, Zee! :P
The 3 of you included Netrunner on this list and even for the same reason. There is the obvious solution that you play the game against eachother ... I was a bit surprised to hear that you all said that you find nobody to play it with. If it's a good game (never played it myself), it shouldn't be a problem convincing eachother.
I really like how you leave up the number markers and titles while people are talking. It makes it easier to skip through the video. Great job!
Tabletop Simulator for the PC is the best thing to happen to introduce new players to X-Wing, imo. I'm just starting out with it and I agree that it's way too daunting on the surface, but having TTS available to play with my friends, netdeck lists, and see what's fun to play, allows me to play the game without limits, and figure out what minis I want to drop my cash on.
Regarding Zee talking about "But Wait There's More", what if you play a house rule variant where everybody gets a different random product card instead of everybody using the same product? That seems like it would solve the issue he had with the game.
Doug Rosengard that breaks the theme of the game. It's a rip on 'those' infomercials. The players aren't selling different vacuums, they are telling you different features of the same one.
Hey Dice Tower. Idea: Top 10 Character Sheets, or Character Boards for a Board Game. I think its a pretty important aspect, u love bigger, smaller, more complex, a lot of attributes, simple, lot of changeable things... thats an idea. Whats ur favourite character sheet? U love to write with pencil, u use tokens on it, u love to place cards on it, it has an inventory, what kind of inventory.... etc.
Actually, I'd like to see this as well. A critique of the physical aspects of the game, rather than just the mechanics. That's an interesting topic.
I know that there's a distinction between the feel of using tiny colored blocks vs. using meeples, and there's a difference for me between using the official Pathfinder sheets and using sheets I designed for myself to put the information in a visual order that makes better sense to my brain (e.g. combat section vs. noncombat, and the items in the order they'd be referred to within the encounter, and the skills by category instead of alphabetical).
Love these thank you 😃 in my opinion best you tube channel at moment
Ah the curse of becoming a Tourney game. People who don't know it very well, and people who optimize the heck out of it. Not a pleasant domain for people who know it, and DON'T want to deep dive the mechanics. I guess you could go in drafting, but the super players still have the advantage.
Great list. So many of these I agree with especially Netrunner and Yggrdasil for those exact reasons.
I know how Tom and Sam feel about Netrunner. That's why I only play with just the Core set. I'm glad some friends of mine like it that way as well.
oh snap, I didn't expect the game to be on Zee's list as well.XD should've waited a bit vefore posting.
Agreed. That is the only way I would consider playing net runner. It doesn't have to be core vs core, but it does have to be one fixed data pack/core deck vs another. No mixing from all the sets. Just too much to know to be effective and building a deck.
I think one of the big things with Netrunner is that the design of the game is very different, and took quite a long time to figure the game out. It's not so much an expansion thing (decks for a long time ran mostly core set cards, and you can do fine for the most part), it's just more of a player-base learning curve.
Magic (and it's derivatives) have a much more straight-forward value analysis. This card costs X and has Y strength and is fundamentally very tit-for-tat. It's not as simple as that (or at least it's not that) in Netrunner.
I agree that magics card value determination is a lot more straight forward, but in both cases knowledge of and access to all existing cards and time played both continue to drive the odds of winning higher. It has a very long curve of expertise. Too long for my taste. Too much of an investment to move up that curve.
Yeah, I agree. Having loved the original I avoided Netrunner for ages, but eventually I took the plunge and got a core set plus about 3 data packs and took about 8 cards out of each so that the base decks can be tweaked and have a few nasties put in them ever so slightly (5 mins at the start of playing). This does us fine - the great reboot with the different factions included in the base box gives enough to play the game with some variety. I will _never_ play competitively, nor play someone else's deck, and I have no interest in doing so, so what I've got is a perfect amount for what I want from the game. If you are tempted by the game (and it's great) and are happy to all play out of the same box, then I'd recommend it.
This was fun to watch; thanks! I just noticed that at some point you took the leaves off the table. I'm curious what went on there...
X-Wing is another that just took off and passed me by at light speed. I couldn't possibly keep up with the pace of collecting other players were able to maintain.
TI4. I went to a teach-and-play and it was still an overwhelming experience. I'd rather play a few games in the time it takes to play one match of TI4.
good list :D
I know the feeling you guys have with Netrunner tbh
Thought for sure I would see Axis & Allies from someone's list. It's a great game that Sam and Tom may never play again.
I love netrunner, and teaching it, but I am use to teaching games so I know how to present myself and the game. however I can understand how it is hard to get to the table, and how someone would be turned off by it.
Sam was on fire!!! Great video, guys!
Sam, here it comes. The inevitable argument surely foreseen to be made for WAR OF THE RING: According to the books, the nature of things was that the Shadow had long planned the war below the surface and pushed it to the surface at a time that seemed entirely in its favor. The other nations' reactions to the development and to the actual run of that war were quite different. In my humble opinion, the game mirrors the described outset inequalities, varying approaches, diplomatic issues, strategic problems, as well as the impossibilities of carrying it out against a massive, even overpowering opponent very nicely and very thematically. And the game does more: It let's you explore a ton of possible options to re-write the war in most of its parts besides also finding the time for individual stories and tragedies (a genius stretch). I would argue that the game let's you re-write a loved (war) plot more elegantly and thoroughly than many other games claim to do (e.g. Star Wars: Rebllion, after some plays most possible plot twists seem to have been revealed). Just because a war does not follow the all to usual line of "boom, here we all are, let's all fire away and see who stands last" does not mean that a) it is not a war and b) it is not a very intriguing war (to be carried out on cardboard that is). Yes, they could have found another title like "THE UNFOLDING, THE EXECUTION AND THE END OF THE WAR OF THE RING" but how pedantic would that have been? And how pedantic is it for us to make a request in that regard. That a player has not moved his nation(s) "at war" at the right time may be very well founded on his own making. The game is complex and long and does not hit my table as much as I would like but once it unfolds (even with its current and upcoming expansions) it does shine. I would have loved to play it against you.
I agree.
Even in todays world conflict does not have to lead to all out war. Look at Ukraine - Russia practically took part of it but no war aggains Russia is waged by its allies.
Perhaps folks in Middle Earth were not attacked by the Shadow but decided (by referendum or similar means) that thay would want to ally with Sauron. Look at Saruman - this is exactly what he did ;)
It is all peacetalks and misunderstandings, no need to automatically go to war, Sam.
Besides, Gondor practically starts at war. It's just your other POTENTIAL allies that don't. Plus, wotr is more epic.
I think Sam got the wrong idea, as many ppl did when first played it. The good side never wants to make an all scale war with Shadow, because it's a suicidal mission. When human, elf or dwarf dies, they die. When Orcs, Goblins, Uruk hai die, they go back to the reserve. The fellowship needs to bring the ring to Mordor, while others tried to hold the ground until the ring is destroyed, NOT marching to Mordor. Besides the Fellowship only needs 4 military points to win. Use some action to threat some weakly defended Shadow forts.
The game for me is elegantly designed, everything seems to cope well with the movie (i didnt read the book, stopped after Bilbo saga). Have the fellowship moving around, send Aragorn, Legolas... to armies to help, sneak attack, march armies to force Shadow engage to make some nation at war.... A lot of things to try that can make me play it any day.
Christoph Rehse Well said all! Waited ten years to play it with my son and it doesn't disappoint!
Well Said Christoph Rehse. War of the Ring is, by far, my favorite game. I'm just learning to use the two expansions for it, and find that they add so much to an already amazing game!
This was an interesting video for me. I only started my collection of modern board games 3 or 4 years ago, and so far am up to about 30 games. With relatively so few games in my collection, it came as a shock to discover there are already games that I find myself avoiding - particularly as I once loved them so much! I'm not sure if any of them quite falls into the "I'll never play this again" category, but there's 2 that stand out for me that are certainly coming close to that.
1. Settlers of Catan
This was my first modern board game and, along with Carcassonne, precedes what I consider to be the "start of my collection" by a number of years. I hadn't yet discovered the wealth of other games that were available as I contined to play Catan, and like so many other gamers it's formed a huge part of my gaming history, but I simply don't desire to play it any more. I think it's been over a year now since it last came to the table, despite me having almost every expansion available.
So why doesn't this hit the table any more? Simply because I think there are better games out there. One frustrating element of Catan for me, that surfaced in virtually every game of it I ever played, was that at least 1 player would end up, relatively early on, being completely cut off from any chance of winning and would spend most of the game not being able to do anything much. Once they finally DID get to a point where they could start building, the end of the game was pretty much already decided. I don't like it when anyone is only still playing because to do so would ruin the sequence of the game for everyone else, and yet that happened all too often with Catan.
I don't necessarily think Catan is a BAD game, and it's given me a lot of joy over the years, but now that I'm a more experienced gamer I know what I like more, and I know more clearly what I believe makes a good game, and Catan now sits there....largely forgotten, while my collection grows around it. Poor little guy. This same reasoning leads me on to my other game....
2. Village
Village was one of the first games I got once I'd discovered modern board gaming "properly".The Christmas my collection truly began, I received several new games, including Village. By the time it was wrapped under the tree, I'd spent several months discovering even more games that I wanted and already I was thinking that, despite my excitement at getting Village, there were already things I'd have probably asked for in it's place had I known they existed.
As with Catan, I've had a lot of fun with this game, and I probably WILL still play this again at some point, but I have a friend who's recently discovered it and has suggested we play it several times of late, and each time I've found myself not really wanting to play.
I think this again boils down to my increased exposure to, and experience with the wealth of games that are now out there. I like Village. I think it's a fun game.......the first few times. However, my recent games have all been pretty much the same game. This could partly be down to those I'm playing with, going for the same routes to victory every single time, but I've found the truth to be that there really just isn't that much choice in what to do from game to game, even with the Village Inn expansion (which helped with this to a point, but not as much as I'd hoped).
With many other games that I like, I find myself choosing a different route to victory each time because either the game conditions are different from game to game, and therefore require a different strategy, or because I genuinely want to try something different. With Village, I find that, while I could pick something different to do from last game, I'm ultimately only doing so out of a desperate attempt not to play the exact same game I had last time, and the time before that, and the time before that. The problem with this is that, as I shift to a different victory route, so does everyone else, and so we still end up having the same game, but just with a shift round the table as to who's doing what. The predetermined routes are still there and there's not a lot of room for creative strategy here in my personal experience.
Essentially, it's the variety in game play experience from game to game that I feel is lacking for me with this one and I just can't find the enthusiasm to suggest playing it again.
Sam, in "Caravelas" the ships depart from Portugal, not Spain. :)
Great video guys! I am curious to know if any of you would play Vlaada's Mage Knight Board game again (this would be my personal #1). It is an amazing game that packs in tons of great mechanics; dice drafting, deck building, world exploration, etc. I personally feel that it packs too much into a single game, and the resulting rules complexity is too steep a step for me to re-learn just for a one-off 3 hour gaming experience. I'll just play dice masters to cover the drafting and deck building , and rinse it down with Return of the Heroes for world exploration.
Shout out to Tom and Sam; I hope that I one day play Overpower again!
That and the components are (no offense) complete ass compared to what's on the market, aka Gloomhaven, Mechs vs Minions, Twilight Imperium, etc.
Also has alot of poorly explained/implemented/needlessly confusing mechanics that would have made the game better without. (Such as resistances and how they work, passive armor, what allies can do, how summoning units attack, how some of the scenarios work).
Doomtown Reloaded, while not as complex as Netrunner had the same problem. Everyone was obsessed over getting every release, and I just wanted to make a few perfect decks to play with friends. Anytime I asked for help in building a deck, the answer was bascially buy everything and use a few cards from each pack.
What Tom says about X-Wing Miniatures is kind of how I feel about Magic: The Gathering. I think it's a great game, but everyone I know that still plays is too serious about building their decks/collections. I want to be able to play casually without a tournament-honed, up-to-date deck against someone else who is similarly casual about their deck-building.
Draft sealed prereleases commander there is ways to play casually
Tom live-plays Diplomacy as a super high stretch goal in the next DT Kickstarter? ;P
Sounds great to me!
Ricochet Robots is probably my most favorite board game, ever. It's cool, it's quick, it requires you to think and noone ever is responsible for your defeat except your skill. Very little room for sheer luck. More than that, it scales for any group easily (cannot be easier, I believe) and you can practice it alone if your want, and it definitely wakes up your attention and focus. I'm not supergood at it, but I'm fine, and in a good company and good state of mind I'd play every time I'm offered to.
Why does Zee always hold me in such suspense before he announces the game? :)
Oh wait, so both Tom, Sam and Zee all had Netrunner on a list for the same reason that they don't have anyone to play the game casually.
Dude, maybe play it together?!?
Exactly!
As someone who played with a friend casually for a long time: you get used to someone else's style real fast. Both of us weren't strangers to branching out (except I will never play HB because it's full of scum), but we still came to understand what each other was looking for and either playing into it at our own detriment or building to counter it at theirs.
Both?
I'm not sure I will ever play Pandemic again. I love the game, but after playing Legacy, I just don't see the regular game being as exciting or engaging for me. we just finished legacy, so maybe I'm just burnt out on it right now, but regular pandemic will not be seeing the table for me in a while.
This is a great and interesting list, thanks!
I recently played Arkham Horror with a new set of rules.. and it was frantic.
never thought I would play a 3hour game of Arkham followed by a 2 hour game of it.
(basically, a portal per investigator following just the portal and clue lines and following the full card of the first player, Portals take two hits on the same location to open, in this rules there are rifts and different ways of dealing with a rift and a portal - it takes 1-2 turns to close a rift, 2-3 to close a portal... it means a LOT happening all the time.)
6.30 true friendship
Sad thing is. I feel every cardgame has the Android: Netrunner problem. At a certain moment you just need to go with the hardcore crowd and go along with the meta or not be able to play with the vast majority of people. And if you do you won't have a very good time cause you have very little chance of winning.
I feel like Summoner Wars avoids this. Yes, you can buy Reinforcement Packs, but for the most part you don't deck build, you just hand a person a deck, take another one, and go for it. Star Realms, likewise. Basically the games that don't have you preconstructing your deck.
Honestly it really depends on your community. As someone who's been playing magic since highschool, I've experienced both good communities that welcome anyone to play and others that made me quit for a couple years. The good thing with magic is that if you play with set decks, or give a new player a deck you designed to be pretty competitive, I find they can usually catch on to how the game plays and you don't have to really dumb down your decision making. A collectible game I would recommend that I'm in love with is a card/dice hybrid called dicemasters. While it still has meta cards that dominate, the fun thing is most characters are playable, and there are things like globals and basic actions that are shared between both players. Some of the most powerful things in the game both players will have access to if someone brings it in their team.
Yeah, I agree. That's exactly why I stopped playing Magic the first time. (I kind of got into it again when some friends started playing Commander, since that's different enough from "normal" Magic for the game to not be "solved" right away, but I lost interest again when a lot of friends started making very competitive decks...)
So far though, Force of Will has been pretty fun in my area. I think part of the key is having a game where there's a lot of choices to make during the game, as opposed to coming up with a strategy when you build the deck and only slightly varying it to counter specific decks you go up against.
+Dexter Mahler netrunner is starting a rotation in early 2017. they are getting rid of the first two blocks (12 packs) which did have a couple of overpowered cards.
I know you don't mean EVERY card game, because there are a ton of fun games either using cards in addition to other mechanics (as a main part of the game) or are just card games, that are still great for beginners and people who've been playing for awhile. Sushi Go is fantastic once you explain how the cards and scoring work, Gloom is a game where even if you lose, the storytelling of a group will make up most of the enjoyment anyway, Sheriff of Nottingham is fantastic and I feel the base game of the Warhammer LCG is fine as well. Games that aren't solely card games, but has cards as a huge aspect of the game, that still allow for both crowds to enjoy, would be Abyss, Lords of Waterdeep. With Magic, if you're playing with a newcomer there are fun ways to keep it fun, tweaking decks to mostly be of uncommons/rares, buying Commander decks and even (as a one time only deal) buy you and your friend(s) intro decks to start things off OR buy booster packs together. There are ways to makes thing fun, you just really need to avoid the people that ONLY want to win, they tend to be unfun at every experience of play.
And yes, you probably meant every card game that's a CCG, TCG or LCG, but I think things can apply to other games that use cards and end up with expansions/mini expansions. But I think at the end of the day, it REALLY comes down to people who want to play games to have fun and try to win but don't ruin it for others and then the competitive crowd that are there solely to win at any and all costs.
Magic: The Gathering
I used to play this game A LOT. even landed top 8 at a Pro-Your Qualifier once. But that game is long gone for me. They just pump expansion after expansion out and it's hard to keep up. And even to just play casually, I'd have to invest in the starter decks and I'd rather put that money towards games that a wider variety of people can enjoy.
Thanks for another great list guys!
No this is actually an amazing list, instead of doing something they've already done a bunch of times w lots of crossover they chose something unique.
and the bants are top notch now, they've definitely grown into their role as entertainers (re: Sam and zee's improvised onomatopoeia duet).
Was expecting Chaos in the Old World. Didn't you guys say the mechanics were solid, despite the theme being too much for you? Don't remember much about it.
GoT board game, loved it, my strategy never changed and I only played for the alliance and amazing back stab ... so I am too one sided in how I play
Love Warrior Knights so much. I agree that it's a bit too long, should never be played with six I think. In any case, I will never give up on it! So much fun!
Twilight Struggle. I enjoyed it. I can appreciate the design. But after a bunch of games, the luck factor just plays too large of a part to invest the 3 hours (and stress!) anymore. The first turn card draw, the first coup, war events, Quagmire/Bear Trap, all those are huge swings that come down to a single die roll and it's just not fun when bad luck with one of those single rolls sends you into a death spiral that costs you the game.
X-Wing Miniatures: Check out the fan made coop variant Heroes of the Aturi Cluster. AI enemy ships, plays and scales REALLY well for 1-6 players. REALLY got me back into the game.
There is a card version of Kingsport Festival that is supposed to be out this year, maybe that'll get you to revisit the game Zee.
Gloomhaven... the "Here's hundreds of hours of play in one box!" thing was awesome at the time, but now other developers keep making games like that, and there's only so much time in the day! My social group got about halfway through the modules, but there's so many other things out there on our "to play" list, it just no longer feels like it makes sense to spend yet more time on Gloomhaven... While not as fresh as it used to be, it's not really that it go stale, just we all agree we'd prefer to spend time on something newer. While I can sort of imagine being like "Hey, know what was fun? Gloomhaven. I miss that" some day, I can't imagine ACTUALLY busting it out and playing a module knowing we aren't actually getting back into it, and I definitely don't see us saying "Let's go back to routinely playing Gloomhaven. Great game, but probably dead to me.
I miss netrunner. I used to live in Tulsa and got to play at Covenant games, but when I got out of college and moved back home there was just nobody to play anymore and my collection is just sitting in a closet.
Also, I'm sorry someone was trying to make you powergame netrunner. Back when I played, a lot of people were crazy into it and wanted to optimize decks, but in my group nobody looked down on anyone. I usually made goofy decks or themed decks rather than super fantastic ones and just had fun seeing what people did to deal with my weird strategy and it was a blast. I've seen that kind of power gaming in MTG a lot though so I know the kind of person you are talking about.
I've made this mistake with every FFG LCG that I've tried. You get a core set, dip your feet in, this is great, oooh, some packs, OH DEAR LORD THEY WON'T STOP COMING. They milk them to death and you either keep up with the flood or rapidly fall behind and have no one to play with. Then you're managing all the decks for anyone you do still play with, and it gets boring because you've built all the decks and anyone who plays you really doesn't give that much of a crap about how a deck does because they didn't build it.
Completely agree
Doomtown. Still keeping up with GOT and thinking about Ashes, but scared. Agreed and only played a few times of AN, too much
While I can’t fault a company for wanting to keep hitting the cash register, it is awful when a game just keeps changing like that.
I’m a much bigger fan of new maps/consistent rules (Power Grid, TTR, Formula D, &c) than new components which shift the entire balance of a game.
I love storytelling games! You guys should do your Top 10 Storytelling Games!!
Have all 3 of them player more than 10 different ones?
My issue with all CCGs but particularly Netrunner is I have this threshold of complexity with deck building, where the more complicated building a good deck is, the more I like it, up to a certain point where if becomes SO much work, it starts feeling like a chore... This moment is really easy to catch, it's when a new set drops and instead of being excited to build new casual decks, I go "Sh*t, now I have to update all my competitive decks".
Netrunner is so complex it was deeply satisfying to me when it came out, but I've never had my interest in a card game run it's course so fast... I was basically done by the second large expansion.
I've finally sworn off (and sold) most of the "classic" (Avalon Hill, SPI, VG) war games I played innumerable times during the 1960-80's. The nostalgic glow I used to feel when taking these off the shelf was finally outweighed by the combined negatives of simplistic rules, limited play options and crude component design.
When I saw the topic, the first game I thought of was Diplomacy. Another game I really enjoyed at the time, but don't see myself playing again is Titan
One. One? One! :D Also Matt Damon joke.. :D And the gungan talking about Ticket to Ride not being a train game just killed me :'D
a Great game i like to play is my friends game he made 2014. its a great game but my only problem to it is how long it takes to set up/clean up and playing can take 3-5 hours +1-2 more hours if you go after the elite bosses.
I not only think Brass is a masterpiece, it’s also unique and far ahead of its time. When board games were just starting to produce these elegant and refined systems of balance, the fact Brass was made at the time long before this is incredible. It’s a good decade ahead of its time.
What a prescient comment! Kudos to you, goodperson!
The two games that I can think of right now:
- 1830: Felt like going to work. I can appreciate it's really well put together, but I just didn't have fun playing it.
- Splendor: It's a well-designed game, easy, short and addictive. And this is why I grew tired of it after playing more than 50 times already. I also don't like the feeling when after buying a card, the one that comes next was better for you in all regards. I know it's how the game plays, it is just me: I don't enjoy it anymore.
Great list. Right now I do feel the same way about heroclix like what you feel on starwars.
How do you get a full game of 7 Ages in in 7 hours? It usually takes us about 10 hours to play through 3 of the ages and we're playing it quick and there is very little downtime in our games.
Yggdrasil is certainly a challenging game, but it can be fairly well "solved" (i.e. the optimal strategy is not too challenging to find if you play around with it for a while). Basically, you want to quickly clear the nearest bag of fire spirits/demons (whatever they're called) thus making it a guaranteed draw for the warriors you need (also, specialize each hero to combat a different enemy). I'd imagine this game has a similar challenge / skill curve to that of Ghost Stories, actually. :)
Caravelas: The game theme is the Portuguese Discoveries in the 15th and 16th century, and their contribution to Portuguese wealth, symbolized in the Jerónimos Monastery. It is an historic fact that the spices trade, brought by the Caravelles, had to pay a tax of 5% in Lisbon, and this tax was used to pay for the monastery construction.
Dice Tower guys - you could play Netrunner among yourselves, you know :)
Finally played my first game of BSG a few weeks ago... and I totally agree with Zee. Won't play it again.
Don't think it's a bad game, I just think it's too long for what it is. I had played Dark Moon prior to that and got the same feeling out of a much shorter game. Plus I think it is hard to keep that traitor suspense in a four hour game. I like the scaled down traitor games much better.
You want a long game? Try 15 players Civilizaiton: The Expansion Project. we used to set aside a weekend (fri-sun) for that
I suppose I'm that rare player. I've got a friend that we occassionally play Android Netrunner, but just with the base decks it came with.
Thank you for starting to leave the game names up the whole time. It helps a lot.
Hello Dice Tower,
Great show! Do you guys have plans to do a Top Ten things that board games do better than video games?
list at the end!! yes!! perfect compromise
They always have the lists at the end of the video. Even the older vids have it. Its great I look at them often, but still watch the entire video.
The pen part is awesome LOL
Zee, you make me sad that you don't want to play Basari anymore. I heard about the game through word of mouth and ended up getting a used copy, and it's an absolute blast to play. Everyone loves it when it makes it to the table. I haven't gotten a chance to play the card version of the game but I don't think I'm super motivated to do so - we're still loving the board version!
6:28 Nice :) Sam teaching Tom how to turn on pen.
Aha! Called Sam's number 1. Interesting thing is I was just thinking about getting it. I'm also a fan of Memoir 44 but I'm fond of the ancient/classical period and I don't care about blocks or minis. I'll take another look at the PDF rules and decide in the near future. I suspect I'll get Ancients even though I usually agree with Sam.
Did you get it? It's the best 2-player game that I have played. I have been through all the expansions and scenarios. If you like Memoir 44 and just want something a little extra. C&C Ancients is the right game for you.
I agree with X-Wing to an extent, and the trouble is that the designers have gone nuts with the abilities and special cards and such, to the point where the build is often more important than how you fly. I've played in a number of tournaments, even won a few, but the metagame in X-Wing right now is cancerous. The game needs to go back to the focus being on maneuver and dogfighting, not ability combos and turrets to avoid having to bother with any maneuver at all.
Netrunner is fantastic. I think the only thing it suffers from is required card knowledge to play. Even being out of the game for a few months can mean you're screwed.
"It just got nasty up in here" yeah, it was real classy when we were just talking about corpses.
Would like to know Tom's thoughts at GenCon when Eric Lang announced his next game called Rising Sun is heavily influenced by Diplomacy and whether Tom was hugely disappointed by that!
Only game I have on the list is X-Wing.... Someday I may get back to it I only played a little. now that I'm retired between granddaughter and regular board games, with counters, guys not Miniatures or blocks, and watching your videos, don't have time to dislike or not appreciate any games that I have spent hard cash on.
Sell some of the displeasing games? No. I'm still trying to repurchase some of the games (mostly Avalon Hill-old)that I let go many years ago when I was out of work n needed $$.
Love your videos...old n new ones.
Heresy! You guys mentioned 5 games I see myself playing the rest of my life!
-Brass
-Steam
-War of the Ring
-Carson City
-Castles of Mad King Ludwig
On the other hand, I agree so much with you about Android Netrunner!
Your lists include Go (my top 1, BTW) and Ricochet robots (which makes the table quite often) XD
However, you mentioned Mutant Meeples, which I didn't know of. Checked your review, Tom, just to realise that you showed a 6 & 7 moves combinations, when the solution was waaaay easier: 3.
Guess Sam wouldn't play with me... I'd bring my stone age just in case
Oh man, the TI3 play through will be AMAZING
Great list!
Have they ever mentioned, when they will do the TI3 play through? I can't wait for it...
Tom mentioned,in mondays Q&A IIRC, he will be talking to one of the players this week so might be able to confirm a time by the weekend. He thinks probably sometime in September.
+Steve Weshinskey Sam and Jason better be in this.
Steve Weshinskey Cool, thank you!
Straddllw
Sam of course, I don't know about Jason but I doubt it. I believe its going to be a 4 player game, Tom,Sam,Zee and the 4th player Tom inferred would be a member of their gaming group that usually isn't on the show. But I really have no idea, I wouldn't think Tom would say 'I need to talk to the other player' rather than 'I need to talk to Jason'. Now if its a 5 player game probably Jason as well.
This was a particularly hard list for me to come up with anything for, since most games that I will probably never play again are because I don't consider them "good games". Two that I can think of that I enjoyed immensely that I won't play again because I don't (and possibly no one does anyore) own a copy are "Dark Cults" (a friend in college owned it) and "Assassin!: The Game of Time Travel" (my brother owned it)
Axis & Allies Global. A friend of mine in Dayton OH bought a kitchen table specifically to fit that game on (super long map board), but after playing it a ton of times, the length of the game is just too monstrously long.
Haven't played all of the games on your lists, but I agree with most of them.
Here's mine:
10. 7 Wonders
An amazing game, and still one of my favorite games of all time. I have all the expansion, and I love the game. However, only a few people I play with are familiar with it, and teaching it is really not very easy. I used to play it a lot with my sister, but with 7 Wonders: Duel out, we'd both rather play that. I hope to play it again from time to time, but it probably won't be that much.
9. 1775 Rebellion
I've played it once, and it was a lot of fun. However, playing it again doesn't really appeal to me. I know I'll have fun when playing it, but I feel like I've tried it all during that one game. It doesn't feel like there's a lot more for me to explore in that game. Still a great game though.
8. Among Nobles
Also a game I've only played once, and one that I enjoyed. There are some holes in the rules though, that kinda dragged down the game. I love the theme and the painting-esque art is pretty neat too. It likely won't see that much more play, but I like it.
7. Forbidden Stars
I can see that it's a great game, but it's really not for me. I'd much rather play something like Eclipse, and I'll probably not play this again.
6. Gloom
I've played it a couple of times, and while I want to like it, I'm having a hard time enjoying it. It's fun, but if I play with the rules on the cards, the game loses a lot of its fun for me, and if I play without it’s too simple. It’s a great game though, but not for me, sadly.
5. Kesse Rüben
Might be an odd choice to have this far down the list (or even on the list), but my sisters and I actually enjoyed playing this. It was a lot of fun, but there are just so many games we would much rather play. Likely wont see any more play.
4. Snow Tails
I have played Snow Tails once, during a gaming session where we played a couple of racing games. It’s a fun game, but there are other racing games I would rather play. I may play this again, but I will probably be pushing for another racing game instead.
3. Taverna
It’s simple, but it feels complex when playing it. I like some of the mechanics, and it is a fun game. On one hand, I kinda wanna play it again, because once you’ve got everything figured out, it’s fun. You likely won’t figure everything out though. I don’t know. I might play it again. Who knows?
2. Isis & Osiris
I love this game! I think it’s a lot of fun, and requires a bit of thinking, which I like. However, it’s not really a game I’d bring to game nights, and my family aren’t a fan of this game. So it will probably stay on the shelf for now. Great game though.
1. Smash Up
I see that it’s a great game, but I doubt I'll be playing this again. It was fun the first handful of games, but by now I feel like I’ve seen it all. I know there’s a lot of combinations, but then again, there really isn’t. Had the game been a little shorter, maybe I had liked it more. For what it is though, it’s too long, and not something I’ll be suggesting.
You should play Android Netrunner with each other. The Old School Netrunner Club. No expansions allowed. :D
Hmmm I have a few haha.
Space Cadets Dice Duel - Just wayyyy too stressful and I HATE being yelled at constantly (Players fault not games though haha)
Catan - Overplayed when I first got into gaming, while I love it and appreciate it for what it is, I have found so many other games that replace it, and I'd rather spend my limited gaming time on something new or something I like more.
RoboRally - Played with 8 players which went for about 4 hours... I was sooo done after that.
I don't know if it would a top 10 list but I would love a list of things that we would like from computer games to be brought into board games. Some comedy ones obviously but I would be curious about some serious discussion on that. Mabey a brief discussion on it in on Board Game Breakfast and a longer conversation in the Backtalk segment
A lot of Martin Wallace games fall into this category. I like playing them, but I can't bring myself to do it more than once.
Ha! Tom made a floater when talking about the floater!
#1 Android Netrunner, same reasons mentioned... wanted to love it so bad, feels like I got into it too late.
Three people saying they can't find someone to play Netrunner with that wants to play it more casually. Why don't you just play it with each other?
Chang Cheng looks cool but we weren't a huge fan of some of the wonky area control aspects... it was a middle of the road game for me and my room is too small for those!
Hmmm...
I kind of agree with Diplomacy since, like Tom said, I want to keep my friends. It is a great game, but it can end up in physical battles. Okay, that was when some guys I knew were playing it as a drinking game, but still. I can absolutely see it as a great teaching game too. I could potentially see using it is an object lesson and teaching tool, but otherwise? Nah.
I have the original starter deck set for the first incarnation of Netrunner, and I enjoy that (though I haven't played it since the 90s) because all it was was one of each of the decks and zero additional anything. In the same vein I enjoyed 7th Sea the CCG and Decipher's Star Wars CCG until the guys I played with were ramping up their collections and I wasn't. They had massive killer decks and I still was using basic starters and I was getting hammered every game. No fun any more.
I have owned Sid Meier's Civilization for years, broke it open, looked at it, oohed and aahed over the components and have never played it. If I want Civ, I'll sit at the computer. If I want to play Civ against my friends, we'll have a hot seat game and mock each other when it's not our turn. I need to go ahead and just sell Sid Meier's Civilization because I'll never take it to the table.
Railroad Tycoon also is in the "If I want to play this I'll play it on my computer" list of games.
Because they were mentioned, the board-and-chit games are an interesting bunch from the old old school days of Avalon Hill. I own a copy of Avalon Hill's Gettysburg that was my dad's when he was in college in the 60's. It is a really cool looking game. Dad never finished a game of it when he was young and had more free time, and I've never even started one. As much as I love the concept and think that Gettysburg is a great historical game, I will likely never play it. There are and have been board-and-chit games that I have loved and still play (War at Sea is one of those) or that I have acquired with the intent to play but haven't had time or opportunity to yet (Kingmaker is my most recent acquisition in that category). But there are a wide variety of great board-and-chit games that I played once, enjoyed the game, and never really had the urge to play again. Looking at you Advanced Squad Leader.
But the biggest and baddest game that I loved to play and used to play all night at times, but will likely never play again (and I need to sell off my copy) is Cosmic Encounter. I have some great memories of that game, and had a lot of good times playing that game, but I just really don't care if I never play it again.