Trust me! Wherever you can, put a tee instead of an elbow as a clean out. You will build up a quarter inch of fly ash each burn and eventually the buildup will choke the system. You'll need to vacuum out the exhaust pipe on a regular basis to operate efficiently. Best of luck.
I use pine cones rather than paper to start mine. It doesn’t get sucked up by the draft. Dryer lint with a coating of vaseline will also make a great starter. I stuff that into a spent toilet tissue roll. Light it, no mess toss it in.🔥
Nothing like eating while starting video commentary. Gives that home cooking feel. If you live in Ozarks. Collective IQ of about 150 here. At least they didn't burn their house down.
A mass heater only draws well, when it is warm. After they fire goes out, close off all air intake to keep the mass warm. In your case, with your drop from window down to bench, I would recommend a valve to shut off the flu. Keeping the mass even slightly warm will guarantee a draft.
If you put a door at the elbow of the exhaust going through the wall you can open it and burn a small amount of fire starter in there as you start your stove. The air will start to draw up the exhaust from the fire starter and pull the air down and through your bench. When the fire starter burns out the exhaust from the stove should be flowing on its own.
Solutions to the heat riser breakdown. 1 rebar (the coffee cans into 1 unit). 2 weld/bend holding brackets (3 or 4) to keep the riser stable Made from 1 or 2 inch bar stock. 3 add stainless steel hardware to join the riser cans together. Hope these ideas help. Cheers, Bill
also the bench should be same height as burn chamber. Ducting air from under house might take care of that or you'll need to cut the legs.... I really like your design Its a lot different that most... Being able to bypass bench and go strait out exhaust can give you a way of controlling heat a little.
A couple of issues I'm seeing here. You can't "choke" a RMH. It doesn't work like a fire place. You just run it full hot and let the mass absorb the heat. The mass is your choke. Second: Double wall insulation pipe doesn't keep cold air from pushing down against your initial heat leaving out. Its to keep the pipe from setting your house on fire. Its an air gap to insulate the hot pipe from the building so convection doesn't ignite combustible materials. Easiest fix is finding good start kindling and blow through the intake so you get heat leaving instead of stalling in the mass bench.
The last cool stove i saw was a 4" square tube. Super cool. They fueled with wood pellets. Sits 4' high, etc. Less air going out chimney, is less cold air coming in.
You know you dont have to use all that piping in the part,which is your themal mass . Just build a frame and cover it with cobb and leave it hollow. This will work just as well if you then vent the bottom to the outside. This allows continual flow of the mass heater.
I don't know if it's been said yet but the condensation in a flu combines with gases and makes 2 kinds of acids that rust out the flu pipes and eat them away. I learned about it on another RUclips channel while I was researching how to install a furnace vent.
Hi Juli, Darwin, everyone else. Stumbled onto both of your channels a week or 2 ago. Finding them to be interesting, informative and entertaining. Thanks! I have a suggestion for your rocket heater that might help. And it is this: stop thinking about smoke as something that always wants to rise. Although I have no experience with these rocket heaters, I do have years of experience in applied Physics. And it would probably help to stop thinking about heat as something that rises. The action that is occurring is that cold is falling and if a warm pocket gets in it way is pushes it out of the way in the only direction it can. Which is up. Lets assume that, as some of the rocket heater people claim, at the top of the riser tube the temperature is 1500F. The combination of gasses, a.k.a. "smoke", flowing from the riser has now expanded to almost 4 times it’s volume when it enter the firebox (this is determined by using the ideal gas law, PV=nRT). Which also means that, for a given size unit like, say, a cubic inch, it is now almost a 4th it’s original weight. Much lighter. Now the combination of gasses, (“smoke”) must travel another 30’ or so before exiting the end of the stove pipe. All the while releasing heat into the pipe and cooling off. And as it cools off it “shrinks” and per cubic inch (or whatever size unit you picked) becomes heaver and heaver. At the end of the pipe it is almost back to room temperature and, per a given size unit, weighs almost 4 times what it did when it left the riser. The point I’m making is that for that 30’ or so from the top of the riser to the end of the pipe the smoke actually wants to go down, not up. Of course once it exits the pipe it will go up, but that is because it has now entered a new environment where it is mixing with gasses that have not had to make the trip through the riser and therefore not hot. But as long as it is constrained by the pipe and interacting only with other gas molecules that have gone through the riser, the further it gets from the riser the cooler it gets, the heaver it gets, and the more it wants to flow down. So my suggestion: After leaving the riser keep the smoke moving down until it exits the building and the pipe. Not even level, always at a slope down, even if it is just a little. I believe that will fix your problem with getting a draft through the pipe and the problem with the bench pipe leaking smoke. What do you think?
Been studying rocket stoves for five + years ... first time I've seen aircreat used, great idea... I wonder if that'd work with clay. I'm gonna try it somehow.. maybe use a bypass valve just to get heat going or maybe a startup fan.... draw air in from floor..
I would imagine the stove is extremely hard to start properly if you have pea gravel in the top of the stove half the reason you're struggling with this to my understanding is to create the draught required to draw the gases down a long flue pipe requires hitting a cold surface on the outside of the barrel buy insulating the barrel you're not calling the gases quickly enough to create a draw on the chimney also I think something to hold the fire up off the bottom of the barrel would help in giving you more control
You need more area between the inner and outer tanks so secondary fuel gas produced in the central tank to ignite with additional air from outside thus increasing efficiency .. . currently you have no area for secondary burn with those rocks filling the area between inner and outer chamber. The bottom line is "you don't want any oxygen to enter the "fuel gas generator" put wood in the inner chamber so at 500 degrees f. and thus increase efficiency greatly . . . this inner tank sits above the fire grates and flames go up around the fuel gas generator that emits gas at 500 deg. F. and are ignited in the top of the outer chamber where additional air enters and temperature rises to near 1000 deg. Far. a small fan an help get a draft started in the bench
The exhaust tubing should all be the same height of the of the burn box with a riser going out of the building with the least bends as possible,your intake air should come from outside otherwise you create negative pressure inside the building that cause the cold air to be sucked into every hole nook and cranny.By taking out side air running it over your thermal mass to positively pressurize the building you stop cold air from coming in.I take minus 3 degree air run it through the mass and get 180 degree out positive pressured building
Agreed insulate until the window.. put a T instead of an elbow.. for a "drip leg" outside The "bench bypass" for warming up the stove get it going really well then shut the bypass and let it go through the bench great idea..... and/or lower the stove.. I do think it's too high..
I believe you need a connection out of the stove to the exhaust with a dampener! With stove running turn dampener closed redirecting flow through the mass storage bench! Stove needs to get a draw up the stack before turning Dampener! Also if you collect tar condensation with your present setup how will you clean it from the storage mass pipe?
Yeah no kidding . I'm sure this guy means well but he hasn't done enough research on this before they committed to doing this thing . Obviously she's a very patient and appreciative person but I can see she's been getting irritated with all this and just wants it to work properly without the danger to her kids and be done with it.
Slap some cob on those pipe joints to seal them better than just tape... The rocket core creates positive pressure, "pushing" air and smoke if you're making it (shouldn't be if the core is performing properly) through those pipes.
Could you build a secondary feed tube so that you could start the stove from outside ( so that smokeback is OUTSIDE the house)? Once you have warmed up the stove cut off the external feed tube and continue with the internal feed tube!
So, just a couple of comments. First, it is my understanding that the pipe that exits the house should be angled down slightly to allow the condensate to drip onto the ground outside. Second, would it be possible to braze or weld the flue pipe in the box to make sure that at no time could there be a leak? You would have to also install sufficient clean outs.
This is awesome. Looks like lots of good tips here for you hopefully they will help. If your still having issues contact Ernie and Erica they are super sweet and so helpful. Can't wait till this is done. Thanks for sharing
I love the videos you guys are putting up. Great products and trial and error videos too. I might be misunderstanding something here as well. I see how the mass heater part works as a battery but when I first started looking at rocket stoves the designs had a J-tube which would really suck the air in and you could visibly see the "horizontal burn." On the design here I don't see anything that would allow adequate air flow through the burn chamber, it's more like an "L" shape design with a door. For the "J-Tube" style rocket stove there is no door really until you decide to shut the fire down. I could just be speaking out of my arse here but what might be your thoughts?
IF the pea gravel goes down the height of the barrel, you have built a wood burning stove NOT a RMH. The burn tube's temperature isn't getting very high.
I agree that that the drop is way to steep, heat is kinda like water it Thales the path of least resistant, and since heat rises making it drop goes against its nature. I think if you drop that barrel behind the stove then take the exhaust out that way then you might have better luck. Either way that is a beautiful stove .
May I off an observation? As I was looking at your out take pipe going through the corrugated plate that goes outside. There's a space for air to go out, right? What makes a rocket stove work well is airflow going into the stove and out the pipe. You want a really airtight house, so the only air moving (as much as possible) is the air going into the intake of the stove and the air going out. If there is a flow problem, (debris, ash) that's why! Keep the house air tight as possible. Then your rocket will stay screaming hot! Either that or my alzheimers is kicking in...again! Love both of your channels by the way. (Honey do carpenter.) I'm a learning allot.
IF,, you put a clean out at the elbow at the end of the seat below the window,,,, you can PRE heat the flu to help the draw !!!! Works for me very well on a 25ftbench, 12-12,,,1,,,
Julie you are not suppose to use those type elbows indoors they dont seal off the harmful gasses. Please use a carbon dector with this type elbow.There are formulas for rise and draw with pipes and heat. You should be able to find them on line.
ruclips.net/video/nZrW0v13BJI/видео.html At about 56 minutes they start to build a rocket stove mass heater for a small room. They mention an inch of rise per foot of exhaust pipe, I believe.
Rocket stove is different, it doesn't work on the chimney pull principle, but on the heat riser push instead. However, it is even more important therefore, that the chimney joints are hermetic. Because the chimney's not sucking stuff out, and the heat riser might be pushing exhaust system gases through the cracks into your room
You need a house setter to checkout the rocketmass heater and give Darwin the figures he needs to dail it into the house size. Have fun in Oklahoma and may the wind blow across the plain.
So maybe I am misunderstanding how a rocket mass heater works, but could you make a taller bench so you don't have as big of a drop in your flu? Or would that defeat the purpose? Also, that water glass is pretty cool. I just looked up what it was and am going to be finding many uses for it in the future. Thanks for your very informative videos!
Northwoods Acres : I have seen mass heaters that is basically a wall with many smoke paths. The smoke just wants to rise and the wall just makes it meander along giving up heat to the rocks and concrete that make up the wall. The bench is a nice bonus, snoozing on a warm spot would be amazing in the cold months. It just goes to show that there's many ways to do a thing.
Northwoods Acres Check out the videos on the Permies YT channel (Paul Wheaton) to better understand the negative pressure created by correctly built rocket mass heaters.
Northwoods Acres - traditional Russian masonry heaters use thermal stratification chambers called bells... These have low exhausts in each chamber so that only the coldest gasses sinking to the bottom go out, hottest gasses rise to the top and stay until they lose their heat to the masonry and sink... This requires slow gas flow in a wide enough chamber for the gasses to lose velocity and stratify, so incoming duct should be extra large, and exhaust near the bottom. The taller the chamber the more stratification occurs... The top will get significantly hotter than the bottom, rather than just a little bit in a low height bell chamber. The bell has the advantage of being able to expose a VERY large masonry mass to gas flow with little to none of the flow restriction of a long bench run of narrow ducting, and the inlet and exhaust can be practically anywhere (laterally) in the bell... To allow for the most convenient core and chimney locations for the space to be chosen. People are now making bell benches instead of ducted benches... Many are using regular bricks and even concrete block for cheap and or readily available mass after the first bell... If the barrel is tall enough and large enough in relation to the riser. it acts as a heat bell too... The only requirement is the space needs to be big enough for the gas stream to slow down and stratify.
@orcoastgreenman, this is so very interesting. I just looked up the bell design and read a bit about it and will continue to research this a bit more. Thank you for your detailed explanation!
guys guys. unless you got a fail safe , powered , exhaust system you really need a carbon monoxide handling plan. according to what i have been taught and installed over 3 states and fifty years///////your system should never naturally vent,,,,,,it should never get to a high temp sooooo what am i missing here? GET A detector please???? pretty please???? 10 bucks ain't no thang when it comes to family anyway......enjoyed the memories it brought back.....thanks for sharing and be safe
i've seen a lot of videos that successfully use ceramic fiber batt wrapped around the riser (with or without rigidizer)...seems a lot less effort than casting refractory around the tube.
This may be a rocket heater but there is no mass ! The rocket design implies the insulated chimney to complete the burn for good efficiency - done ! This exhausts into the oil drum which provides radiant heat during the burn time. Seems a pity that the exhaust is then taking the hot exhaust straight out without heating a "mass" for post-burn convection heating but maybe there is no room for the "mass". One option is to part fill the drum with bricks for heat storage so long as there remains enough clear space for exhaust gas to flow.
What is with this Rocket Mass Heater popularity? I'm assuming it's somehow better than a typical woodstove? Maybe more efficient/uses less wood?... Just curious, because I live in Maine where nearly everyone has wood heat, but am unaware of anyone talking about these Rocket Mass Heaters-- other than homesteaders on RUclips. What am I missing out on? TIA
Check out Permies(dot)com. Paul Wheaton's website. They have been experimenting with them for about 6 or 7 yrs. Amazing stuff. I have one using BroAudio's concept of split 55gal drums as my exhaust/mass. It sucks like a vacuum cleaner
I would do a cob bench and put the flu exit a lot higher. There isn't enough mass to keep the heat for complete combustion and not enough height for the heat to rise to exit.
The complete combustion occurs in the burn chamber, not in the mass bench. The positive pressure caused by the huge increase in volume of gas in the burn chamber, pushes the cooled air out the other end.
The cob bench would retain the heat and help complete combustion. It appears that the burn chamber is not retaining enough heat in order to have high enough heat to have a more complete combustion.... hence all the crap in the chamber.
Hmm, nope, combustion is all over by the time the hot gas enters the bench. There should be only CO2 and some water vapour by then. They have certainly not followed the regular plan for a RMH. So there are several things fighting the system. The outlet piping should be fully enclosed and contained in the mass of the bench from the exit point of the burn chamber, through to the exit out the wall. The lightweight aircrete riser he made was brilliant and functioned well. But the replacement "fire brick" riser that is an odd shape and very dense, over 12 times more weight than the aircrete, is causing huge problems. The idea is to have smooth profiles, either square or round, for the exhaust gases to flow down, not this wedge shape. And the riser should be highly insulating to increase the differential between the extreme heat in the riser and the much cooler outer chimney. The heavy firebricks are suicking lots of heat out of the burn chimney, reducing efficiency. I think the use of aircrete and waterglass should be developed more. SOunds great. But incorporate these with the tested techniques and plans which already have the scientific testing done to show Why It Is So.
Ruby, I think you are saying the same thing as I am. I agree that combustion takes place in the burn chamber, but they are still having incomplete combustion in the burn chamber. I just don't think they have enough draw.
You mean the handfuls of burnt paper she was pulling out of there? Apparently that was caused by having such a high draught that the start-up paper just got sucked right through then stuck in a corner past the internal chimney. I think this shows that you don't really gain by trying to reinvent the tested parameters and measurements of the rocket mass heater. There are scientific reasons for the cross-sectional area of the burn chamber, for its length, for the insulation surrounding it, and its placement on ground level, with vertical feed-in of fuel. This system has altered all of those things, so anyhting could happen!
In the next go round we got it to work with an aircrete chimney instead of just pipe. Now it drops the eighteen inches, goes through the pipe and then out the window and works like a charm.
Why not use a traditional design? Mass heaters are ancient. In any literature about Cossacks, they always talk about sleeping or sitting on the stove, a big masonry stove that captured heat and stored is to heat the room over time. Why reinvent the wheel, especially with novice inventors? Cold air on the outside and warm air on the inside? Isn't that always the case when you are using a heater in a house?
Please don't be offended but I see allot of dangers with your setup. Obvious creosote in your pipes. Also looks like vent pipe and not stove pipe. Modern stove pipe is designed to expand and not split open during a chimney fire so you don't get a massive giant flame thrower in your home if there is a chimney fire. Rocket heaters get away with using vent pipe because it is barried deep in there heating mass like cob or other material. Also you are not using an insulated burn box in the front and not getting your temp high enough to minimize creosote. It will also help move some of the smoke out earlier on warmup. I just don't want to see anyone get hurt in a chimney accident you need to make it safer.
The stove is to high. And the flue in the bench needs to have elevation up from the entrance to the exit. And get rid of all that Galvanized HVAC Ducting and use Stovepipe!!
Hi. hey just an FYI. Mass heaters are not a new technology, in fact they've been used for centuries. The only thing that's new is what people are calling them these days, and the seriously unsafe errors in construction some people are making. Much can be learned by reading how Masonry Wood Stoves are properly built. There's not need to re-invent the wheel so to speak... Others have already done the experimentation and refined the end product. Check out: www.mha-net.org/
the best fire starter I have found is the paraffin soaked boxes that they pack produce in so that they can be iced. These cant be recycled so the grocery stores are happy to have you take them. This is a video of me cutting them for use ruclips.net/video/pj97taDCgIs/видео.html
That is so cool, man !!! HE made a "NEW style" stove , and , the Earth did not blow up either ?!?!?! .... . :-D ... . ... ~ Cheers , seriously !!! You should find an "Angel investor" once he's ready, and, satisfied with his tweeks and hacks ?
I wanted to add do not sign dumb contracts !!!! Even Facebook ("Fakebook" hahahaha) , has a horrid contract !!!! ... .. .... and do not discount the hacks / work !!! ... and you CAN both "Open Source" the final plans, and, also, still sell finished units for profit. Easily !!! .... The SAME as there are Linux Admins that are employed. Even the top creators / coders of Linux are employed an earn wage.
The "rocket stove" design employs some critical scientific principles and experimenting with the design before understanding the principles tends to create confusion. The "rocket stove" (properly built) will create a Cyclonic burn in the riser in less than 3 minutes(i.e. no smoke). If the "feed" tunnel is incorrectly sized or is hotter than the riser, there will be smoke and feedback. If the heat is siphoned away from the riser, the cyclonic flame will be reduced or even eliminated, leading to partial fuel "burn". There are other things to consider in your "design", but, I have to go now.
I have a cob poultry fence re enforced J style rocket mass heater, took a me few years to get it right but I have not had to repair it for 8 years. Your burn tunnel is way too big. Never burn paper, I hooked up a propane line to start the fire, also burn some pellets with the wood. BTW yours is not a J tube it is an L tube
No bypass for the bench set up or more clean out access points ? Not a good idea . Also you're not supposed to be aiming the exhaust downward before making contact with the heat bench tubing which btw should NOT be HVAC tubing that's usually galvanized which contains zinc that burns off under high temperatures . Instead use fire rated chimney tubing or at least stainless steel heat rated tubing . It should also be reasonably level when it exits the burn chamber .Heat naturally wants to rise even though it's being forced downward by the vortex inside the secondary burn chamber .If anything the tubing should be slightly above the exhaust of the barrel so it creates a positive draft outwards . This basic design has been done to death by so many people that there's a virtual plethora of proven tried and true designs that works best . Too often I see people trying to reinvent the wheel and make big and potentially deadly mistakes because they didn't do their research before attempting to do this . Knowledge is power . The time to work out the details and possible design flaws is before you install it where a family is living . Simply installing proper home insulation would go a long way towards keeping the house warmer in that kind of environment . Also properly drafting of the outside air intake would be safer and more efficient than pulling in the air through any air gaps within the home plus not to mention the fact that your pulling in warmer air as the temperature rises within the home which kind of defeats the purpose altogether .That design was worked out during the 1700s when Ben Franklin patented his own fireplace design where he made a vent just in front of the fireplace that brings in cooler air from under the house to create a positive draft .
what are you doing dragging all that pee gravel all the way out to that trailer, it going back together is it not, just put it on the wood floor its clean
I made it through 20 some seconds of your video and had to quit. Talking with your mouth full is something you should have been taught NOT TO DO right around the time you start speaking.
Trust me! Wherever you can, put a tee instead of an elbow as a clean out. You will build up a quarter inch of fly ash each burn and eventually the buildup will choke the system. You'll need to vacuum out the exhaust pipe on a regular basis to operate efficiently. Best of luck.
I use pine cones rather than paper to start mine. It doesn’t get sucked up by the draft. Dryer lint with a coating of vaseline will also make a great starter. I stuff that into a spent toilet tissue roll. Light it, no mess toss it in.🔥
Nothing like eating while starting video commentary. Gives that home cooking feel. If you live in Ozarks.
Collective IQ of about 150 here. At least they didn't burn their house down.
Having a bench bypass would really help for fire starting.
A mass heater only draws well, when it is warm. After they fire goes out, close off all air intake to keep the mass warm. In your case, with your drop from window down to bench, I would recommend a valve to shut off the flu. Keeping the mass even slightly warm will guarantee a draft.
If you put a door at the elbow of the exhaust going through the wall you can open it and burn a small amount of fire starter in there as you start your stove. The air will start to draw up the exhaust from the fire starter and pull the air down and through your bench. When the fire starter burns out the exhaust from the stove should be flowing on its own.
Solutions to the heat riser breakdown. 1 rebar (the coffee cans into 1 unit). 2 weld/bend holding brackets (3 or 4) to keep the riser stable Made from 1 or 2 inch bar stock. 3 add stainless steel hardware to join the riser cans together. Hope these ideas help. Cheers,
Bill
also the bench should be same height as burn chamber. Ducting air from under house might take care of that or you'll need to cut the legs.... I really like your design Its a lot different that most... Being able to bypass bench and go strait out exhaust can give you a way of controlling heat a little.
A couple of issues I'm seeing here. You can't "choke" a RMH. It doesn't work like a fire place. You just run it full hot and let the mass absorb the heat. The mass is your choke.
Second: Double wall insulation pipe doesn't keep cold air from pushing down against your initial heat leaving out. Its to keep the pipe from setting your house on fire. Its an air gap to insulate the hot pipe from the building so convection doesn't ignite combustible materials.
Easiest fix is finding good start kindling and blow through the intake so you get heat leaving instead of stalling in the mass bench.
The last cool stove i saw was a 4" square tube. Super cool. They fueled with wood pellets. Sits 4' high, etc. Less air going out chimney, is less cold air coming in.
You know you dont have to use all that piping in the part,which is your themal mass . Just build a frame and cover it with cobb and leave it hollow. This will work just as well if you then vent the bottom to the outside. This allows continual flow of the mass heater.
I don't know if it's been said yet but the condensation in a flu combines with gases and makes 2 kinds of acids that rust out the flu pipes and eat them away. I learned about it on another RUclips channel while I was researching how to install a furnace vent.
The bench type rmh have the flue double back past the burn chamber to help pre-heat the exit/outflow air...
Hi Juli, Darwin, everyone else. Stumbled onto both of your channels a week or 2 ago. Finding them to be interesting, informative and entertaining. Thanks!
I have a suggestion for your rocket heater that might help. And it is this: stop thinking about smoke as something that always wants to rise. Although I have no experience with these rocket heaters, I do have years of experience in applied Physics. And it would probably help to stop thinking about heat as something that rises. The action that is occurring is that cold is falling and if a warm pocket gets in it way is pushes it out of the way in the only direction it can. Which is up.
Lets assume that, as some of the rocket heater people claim, at the top of the riser tube the temperature is 1500F. The combination of gasses, a.k.a. "smoke", flowing from the riser has now expanded to almost 4 times it’s volume when it enter the firebox (this is determined by using the ideal gas law, PV=nRT). Which also means that, for a given size unit like, say, a cubic inch, it is now almost a 4th it’s original weight. Much lighter.
Now the combination of gasses, (“smoke”) must travel another 30’ or so before exiting the end of the stove pipe. All the while releasing heat into the pipe and cooling off. And as it cools off it “shrinks” and per cubic inch (or whatever size unit you picked) becomes heaver and heaver. At the end of the pipe it is almost back to room temperature and, per a given size unit, weighs almost 4 times what it did when it left the riser.
The point I’m making is that for that 30’ or so from the top of the riser to the end of the pipe the smoke actually wants to go down, not up. Of course once it exits the pipe it will go up, but that is because it has now entered a new environment where it is mixing with gasses that have not had to make the trip through the riser and therefore not hot. But as long as it is constrained by the pipe and interacting only with other gas molecules that have gone through the riser, the further it gets from the riser the cooler it gets, the heaver it gets, and the more it wants to flow down.
So my suggestion: After leaving the riser keep the smoke moving down until it exits the building and the pipe. Not even level, always at a slope down, even if it is just a little. I believe that will fix your problem with getting a draft through the pipe and the problem with the bench pipe leaking smoke.
What do you think?
Been studying rocket stoves for five + years ... first time I've seen aircreat used, great idea... I wonder if that'd work with clay. I'm gonna try it somehow.. maybe use a bypass valve just to get heat going or maybe a startup fan.... draw air in from floor..
I would imagine the stove is extremely hard to start properly if you have pea gravel in the top of the stove half the reason you're struggling with this to my understanding is to create the draught required to draw the gases down a long flue pipe requires hitting a cold surface on the outside of the barrel buy insulating the barrel you're not calling the gases quickly enough to create a draw on the chimney also I think something to hold the fire up off the bottom of the barrel would help in giving you more control
You need more area between the inner and outer tanks so secondary fuel gas produced in the central tank to ignite with additional air from outside thus increasing efficiency .. . currently you have no area for secondary burn with those rocks filling the area between inner and outer chamber. The bottom line is "you don't want any oxygen to enter the "fuel gas generator" put wood in the inner chamber so at 500 degrees f. and thus increase efficiency greatly . . . this inner tank sits above the fire grates and flames go up around the fuel gas generator that emits gas at 500 deg. F. and are ignited in the top of the outer chamber where additional air enters and temperature rises to near 1000 deg. Far. a small fan an help get a draft started in the bench
Thanks for sharing your R M Heater learning experience. 💜
You are welcome!
Enjoyed the knowledge! 😊
The exhaust tubing should all be the same height of the of the burn box with a riser going out of the building with the least bends as possible,your intake air should come from outside otherwise you create negative pressure inside the building that cause the cold air to be sucked into every hole nook and cranny.By taking out side air running it over your thermal mass to positively pressurize the building you stop cold air from coming in.I take minus 3 degree air run it through the mass and get 180 degree out positive pressured building
Agreed insulate until the window.. put a T instead of an elbow.. for a "drip leg" outside
The "bench bypass" for warming up the stove get it going really well then shut the bypass and let it go through the bench great idea..... and/or lower the stove.. I do think it's too high..
I believe you need a connection out of the stove to the exhaust with a dampener! With stove running turn dampener closed redirecting flow through the mass storage bench! Stove needs to get a draw up the stack before turning Dampener! Also if you collect tar condensation with your present setup how will you clean it from the storage mass pipe?
this is the time to iron out all the kinks in the build !! thanks for sharing
Really enjoying watching this evolve.
About the paint problem I would do bare metal fire at once and then use stove polish very simple to touch up and it's very durable
hope you can get the system sorted out so you can focus on just living and not ripping it apart repeatedly
Yeah no kidding . I'm sure this guy means well but he hasn't done enough research on this before they committed to doing this thing . Obviously she's a very patient and appreciative person but I can see she's been getting irritated with all this and just wants it to work properly without the danger to her kids and be done with it.
Slap some cob on those pipe joints to seal them better than just tape... The rocket core creates positive pressure, "pushing" air and smoke if you're making it (shouldn't be if the core is performing properly) through those pipes.
wait till mid Jan, when it hits - 40 to -50 with a 60mph wind you will not be opening any windows or being to hot
#1 Tip: when reinventing the wheel, the less dynamite you use the better.
Amen to that one !
Could you build a secondary feed tube so that you could start the stove from outside ( so that smokeback is OUTSIDE the house)?
Once you have warmed up the stove cut off the external feed tube and continue with the internal feed tube!
So, just a couple of comments. First, it is my understanding that the pipe that exits the house should be angled down slightly to allow the condensate to drip onto the ground outside. Second, would it be possible to braze or weld the flue pipe in the box to make sure that at no time could there be a leak? You would have to also install sufficient clean outs.
You can use a bypass pipe to start the stove, then open up the path to the bench.
Earthship homes are the way to go. You and Jon may want to check it out.
I'm still not convinced that passive solar earthships would be enough for the harsh winters of the Northern United States.
This is awesome. Looks like lots of good tips here for you hopefully they will help. If your still having issues contact Ernie and Erica they are super sweet and so helpful. Can't wait till this is done. Thanks for sharing
I love the videos you guys are putting up. Great products and trial and error videos too. I might be misunderstanding something here as well. I see how the mass heater part works as a battery but when I first started looking at rocket stoves the designs had a J-tube which would really suck the air in and you could visibly see the "horizontal burn." On the design here I don't see anything that would allow adequate air flow through the burn chamber, it's more like an "L" shape design with a door. For the "J-Tube" style rocket stove there is no door really until you decide to shut the fire down. I could just be speaking out of my arse here but what might be your thoughts?
How long has the heater been heating before this ash cloged the exhaust pipe?
IF the pea gravel goes down the height of the barrel, you have built a wood burning stove NOT a RMH. The burn tube's temperature isn't getting very high.
I agree that that the drop is way to steep, heat is kinda like water it Thales the path of least resistant, and since heat rises making it drop goes against its nature. I think if you drop that barrel behind the stove then take the exhaust out that way then you might have better luck. Either way that is a beautiful stove .
May I off an observation? As I was looking at your out take pipe going through the corrugated plate that goes outside. There's a space for air to go out, right? What makes a rocket stove work well is airflow going into the stove and out the pipe. You want a really airtight house, so the only air moving (as much as possible) is the air going into the intake of the stove and the air going out. If there is a flow problem, (debris, ash) that's why! Keep the house air tight as possible.
Then your rocket will stay screaming hot! Either that or my alzheimers is kicking in...again! Love both of your channels by the way. (Honey do carpenter.) I'm a learning allot.
I WANT ONE! NICE WORK GUYS. I LOVE THE SIZE OF THIS ROCKET. DO YOU HAVE PLANES ON HOW TO BUILD ONE?
I totally adore the honey do carpenter. I think he should be on a TV show. Maybe HGTV?
IF,, you put a clean out at the elbow at the end of the seat below the window,,,, you can PRE heat the flu to help the draw !!!!
Works for me very well on a 25ftbench, 12-12,,,1,,,
Thank you!
@@dirtpatcheaven you're welcome 😁
Julie you are not suppose to use those type elbows indoors they dont seal off the harmful gasses. Please use a carbon dector with this type elbow.There are formulas for rise and draw with pipes and heat. You should be able to find them on line.
ruclips.net/video/nZrW0v13BJI/видео.html
At about 56 minutes they start to build a rocket stove mass heater for a small room. They mention an inch of rise per foot of exhaust pipe, I believe.
Rocket stove is different, it doesn't work on the chimney pull principle, but on the heat riser push instead.
However, it is even more important therefore, that the chimney joints are hermetic. Because the chimney's not sucking stuff out, and the heat riser might be pushing exhaust system gases through the cracks into your room
You need a house setter to checkout the rocketmass heater and give Darwin the figures he needs to dail it into the house size. Have fun in Oklahoma and may the wind blow across the plain.
Could also put your stove lower into a basin like area considering structurally possible in room
So maybe I am misunderstanding how a rocket mass heater works, but could you make a taller bench so you don't have as big of a drop in your flu? Or would that defeat the purpose?
Also, that water glass is pretty cool. I just looked up what it was and am going to be finding many uses for it in the future. Thanks for your very informative videos!
Northwoods Acres : I have seen mass heaters that is basically a wall with many smoke paths. The smoke just wants to rise and the wall just makes it meander along giving up heat to the rocks and concrete that make up the wall. The bench is a nice bonus, snoozing on a warm spot would be amazing in the cold months. It just goes to show that there's many ways to do a thing.
Northwoods Acres Check out the videos on the Permies YT channel (Paul Wheaton) to better understand the negative pressure created by correctly built rocket mass heaters.
Thank you!
Northwoods Acres - traditional Russian masonry heaters use thermal stratification chambers called bells... These have low exhausts in each chamber so that only the coldest gasses sinking to the bottom go out, hottest gasses rise to the top and stay until they lose their heat to the masonry and sink...
This requires slow gas flow in a wide enough chamber for the gasses to lose velocity and stratify, so incoming duct should be extra large, and exhaust near the bottom.
The taller the chamber the more stratification occurs... The top will get significantly hotter than the bottom, rather than just a little bit in a low height bell chamber.
The bell has the advantage of being able to expose a VERY large masonry mass to gas flow with little to none of the flow restriction of a long bench run of narrow ducting, and the inlet and exhaust can be practically anywhere (laterally) in the bell... To allow for the most convenient core and chimney locations for the space to be chosen.
People are now making bell benches instead of ducted benches... Many are using regular bricks and even concrete block for cheap and or readily available mass after the first bell...
If the barrel is tall enough and large enough in relation to the riser. it acts as a heat bell too...
The only requirement is the space needs to be big enough for the gas stream to slow down and stratify.
@orcoastgreenman, this is so very interesting. I just looked up the bell design and read a bit about it and will continue to research this a bit more. Thank you for your detailed explanation!
U could add a airflow chimney draw fan till it gets going well then remove it to eliminate air flow damning n smoke inside room
What is that fan that you taken off the top of it.
To circulate the hot air around the house.
I think the stove is sitting too high for the thermodynamics to overcome the drop down to the mass collector bench.
Boy I would like to look back from 50 or 100 years. I would be 127 years old.
When you were trying to close it down, is that by restricting the incomin (primary) air? That should work way better than damping the exhaust :)
Anybody checking or beefing up the floor with all that weight? Might be a good idea so success can continue and no surprises.:)
since what i understand about fire , it's way better to have the air going into the stove caming from outside
guys guys. unless you got a fail safe , powered , exhaust system you really need a carbon monoxide handling plan. according to what i have been taught and installed over 3 states and fifty years///////your system should never naturally vent,,,,,,it should never get to a high temp sooooo what am i missing here? GET A detector please???? pretty please???? 10 bucks ain't no thang when it comes to family anyway......enjoyed the memories it brought back.....thanks for sharing and be safe
where did you get it . I like to get one .
i've seen a lot of videos that successfully use ceramic fiber batt wrapped around the riser (with or without rigidizer)...seems a lot less effort than casting refractory around the tube.
This may be a rocket heater but there is no mass !
The rocket design implies the insulated chimney to complete the burn for good efficiency - done !
This exhausts into the oil drum which provides radiant heat during the burn time.
Seems a pity that the exhaust is then taking the hot exhaust straight out without heating a "mass" for post-burn convection heating but maybe there is no room for the "mass". One option is to part fill the drum with bricks for heat storage so long as there remains enough clear space for exhaust gas to flow.
Should have watched whole video before typing...
The fuel made by burning should run back into the burn chamber. Your flue joints are reversed.
What is with this Rocket Mass Heater popularity? I'm assuming it's somehow better than a typical woodstove? Maybe more efficient/uses less wood?... Just curious, because I live in Maine where nearly everyone has wood heat, but am unaware of anyone talking about these Rocket Mass Heaters-- other than homesteaders on RUclips. What am I missing out on? TIA
Not too educated but have seen many examples of rocket mass heaters using up to 80% less wood than a traditional stove.
80% less splitting and stacking would be awesome! I'll have to look into these heaters a little more... Thanks for the response, Dave Hoover.
Check out Permies(dot)com. Paul Wheaton's website. They have been experimenting with them for about 6 or 7 yrs. Amazing stuff. I have one using BroAudio's concept of split 55gal drums as my exhaust/mass. It sucks like a vacuum cleaner
I would do a cob bench and put the flu exit a lot higher. There isn't enough mass to keep the heat for complete combustion and not enough height for the heat to rise to exit.
The complete combustion occurs in the burn chamber, not in the mass bench. The positive pressure caused by the huge increase in volume of gas in the burn chamber, pushes the cooled air out the other end.
The cob bench would retain the heat and help complete combustion. It appears that the burn chamber is not retaining enough heat in order to have high enough heat to have a more complete combustion.... hence all the crap in the chamber.
Hmm, nope, combustion is all over by the time the hot gas enters the bench. There should be only CO2 and some water vapour by then.
They have certainly not followed the regular plan for a RMH. So there are several things fighting the system. The outlet piping should be fully enclosed and contained in the mass of the bench from the exit point of the burn chamber, through to the exit out the wall.
The lightweight aircrete riser he made was brilliant and functioned well. But the replacement "fire brick" riser that is an odd shape and very dense, over 12 times more weight than the aircrete, is causing huge problems. The idea is to have smooth profiles, either square or round, for the exhaust gases to flow down, not this wedge shape. And the riser should be highly insulating to increase the differential between the extreme heat in the riser and the much cooler outer chimney. The heavy firebricks are suicking lots of heat out of the burn chimney, reducing efficiency.
I think the use of aircrete and waterglass should be developed more. SOunds great. But incorporate these with the tested techniques and plans which already have the scientific testing done to show Why It Is So.
Ruby, I think you are saying the same thing as I am. I agree that combustion takes place in the burn chamber, but they are still having incomplete combustion in the burn chamber. I just don't think they have enough draw.
You mean the handfuls of burnt paper she was pulling out of there? Apparently that was caused by having such a high draught that the start-up paper just got sucked right through then stuck in a corner past the internal chimney.
I think this shows that you don't really gain by trying to reinvent the tested parameters and measurements of the rocket mass heater. There are scientific reasons for the cross-sectional area of the burn chamber, for its length, for the insulation surrounding it, and its placement on ground level, with vertical feed-in of fuel. This system has altered all of those things, so anyhting could happen!
I may be better to place exhaust from stove and bench input at SAME level, as well as double wall chimney to keep exhaust warm, improving draft.
In the next go round we got it to work with an aircrete chimney instead of just pipe. Now it drops the eighteen inches, goes through the pipe and then out the window and works like a charm.
Why not use a traditional design? Mass heaters are ancient. In any literature about Cossacks, they always talk about sleeping or sitting on the stove, a big masonry stove that captured heat and stored is to heat the room over time. Why reinvent the wheel, especially with novice inventors?
Cold air on the outside and warm air on the inside? Isn't that always the case when you are using a heater in a house?
Vortexing is imperative in this type of heater
How many times did u use that
Gobs of ash
Please don't be offended but I see allot of dangers with your setup. Obvious creosote in your pipes. Also looks like vent pipe and not stove pipe. Modern stove pipe is designed to expand and not split open during a chimney fire so you don't get a massive giant flame thrower in your home if there is a chimney fire. Rocket heaters get away with using vent pipe because it is barried deep in there heating mass like cob or other material. Also you are not using an insulated burn box in the front and not getting your temp high enough to minimize creosote. It will also help move some of the smoke out earlier on warmup. I just don't want to see anyone get hurt in a chimney accident you need to make it safer.
interesting
Yes there are so many safety concerns with this setup both in clearance to combustibles and from CO danger.
The stove is to high. And the flue in the bench needs to have elevation up from the entrance to the exit.
And get rid of all that Galvanized HVAC Ducting and use Stovepipe!!
What is water glass?
Your pipes ate upside down thats why the creosote is dripping.
you need more mass. more brick and cob and less ducting.
IMO your flue is too big a diameter. Drop it at least on inch to control the flue flow.
Hi. hey just an FYI. Mass heaters are not a new technology, in fact they've been used for centuries. The only thing that's new is what people are calling them these days, and the seriously unsafe errors in construction some people are making. Much can be learned by reading how Masonry Wood Stoves are properly built. There's not need to re-invent the wheel so to speak... Others have already done the experimentation and refined the end product. Check out: www.mha-net.org/
the best fire starter I have found is the paraffin soaked boxes that they pack produce in so that they can be iced. These cant be recycled so the grocery stores are happy to have you take them. This is a video of me cutting them for use ruclips.net/video/pj97taDCgIs/видео.html
the stuff in the jar is creosote
Yep, nasty isn't it.
That is so cool, man !!! HE made a "NEW style" stove , and , the Earth did not blow up either ?!?!?! .... . :-D ... . ... ~ Cheers , seriously !!! You should find an "Angel investor" once he's ready, and, satisfied with his tweeks and hacks ?
I wanted to add do not sign dumb contracts !!!! Even Facebook ("Fakebook" hahahaha) , has a horrid contract !!!! ... .. .... and do not discount the hacks / work !!! ... and you CAN both "Open Source" the final plans, and, also, still sell finished units for profit. Easily !!! .... The SAME as there are Linux Admins that are employed. Even the top creators / coders of Linux are employed an earn wage.
The "rocket stove" design employs some critical scientific principles and experimenting with the design before understanding the principles tends to create confusion. The "rocket stove" (properly built) will create a Cyclonic burn in the riser in less than 3 minutes(i.e. no smoke). If the "feed" tunnel is incorrectly sized or is hotter than the riser, there will be smoke and feedback. If the heat is siphoned away from the riser, the cyclonic flame will be reduced or even eliminated, leading to partial fuel "burn". There are other things to consider in your "design", but, I have to go now.
Wait, you can’t just LEAVE. Get back here and help finish the worlds most powerful rocket stove.
I would not doubt the efficieney of a RMH. I'm all about saving wood....hate seeing my wood pile dwindle! Common sense dictates that insulation rules!
Yes, we have good insulation in the house and it makes all the difference winter or summer.
I have a cob poultry fence re enforced J style rocket mass heater, took a me few years to get it right but I have not had to repair it for 8 years. Your burn tunnel is way too big. Never burn paper, I hooked up a propane line to start the fire, also burn some pellets with the wood. BTW yours is not a J tube it is an L tube
Raise the bench lower the stove smoke is a gas and it wants to rise not go down
No bypass for the bench set up or more clean out access points ? Not a good idea .
Also you're not supposed to be aiming the exhaust downward before making contact with the heat bench tubing which btw should NOT be HVAC tubing that's usually galvanized which contains zinc that burns off under high temperatures . Instead use fire rated chimney tubing or at least stainless steel heat rated tubing . It should also be reasonably level when it exits the burn chamber .Heat naturally wants to rise even though it's being forced downward by the vortex inside the secondary burn chamber .If anything the tubing should be slightly above the exhaust of the barrel so it creates a positive draft outwards . This basic design has been done to death by so many people that there's a virtual plethora of proven tried and true designs that works best . Too often I see people trying to reinvent the wheel and make big and potentially deadly mistakes because they didn't do their research before attempting to do this . Knowledge is power .
The time to work out the details and possible design flaws is before you install it where a family is living . Simply installing proper home insulation would go a long way towards keeping the house warmer in that kind of environment . Also properly drafting of the outside air intake would be safer and more efficient than pulling in the air through any air gaps within the home plus not to mention the fact that your pulling in warmer air as the temperature rises within the home which kind of defeats the purpose altogether .That design was worked out during the 1700s when Ben Franklin patented his own fireplace design where he made a vent just in front of the fireplace that brings in cooler air from under the house to create a positive draft .
UM..hire somebody who KNOWS how to not hurt you. You are one of my best bets for the Darwin awards right now.
Left you another note UNDER my original . Just wanted to "BUMP" / Notify incase it does not "PING" you. .... :-) .. . ~ Cheers , "the" Rev
Nice stove , I just sub you , you should try a try pod for your cam .
Éthanol = heat without smoke
I also think you are hitting the nail on the head with need a bigger area of mass.
Wobbly camerawork gives me ADHD 😂. Otherwise, GREAT information and thank you for sharing!
facebook rocket heater/rocket mass heaters
I am not on facebook. I left it when they made you agree to collecting information in order to have an account.
what are you doing dragging all that pee gravel all the way out to that trailer, it going back together is it not, just put it on the wood floor its clean
BEAUITFUL EYES
يوجد ترجمه للعربيه
These things are bad, all my energy stocks will fall.
????
I made it through 20 some seconds of your video and had to quit. Talking with your mouth full is something you should have been taught NOT TO DO right around the time you start speaking.
Awful! She is so full of herself that she forgets to really talk about the stove.
To much talking the woman,no working,it's no good